Who will fall in love with whom? v40

[AmmoniaAlert]

That's because Hermione was not in mortal danger like Ron was.

Just because she had a pulse does not mean she was out of mortal danger.
In fact, looking at her in the hospital, I had the feeling it was a close call for Hermione.
I would have hoped for Harry to have a worry or two about Hermione's condition, and was a little miffed at him for his lack of caring later on.
( I do understand how overwhelming his godfather's death is, but still...
they have been his best friends for years).



Of course, Sirius was the most important person in his life. Of course, he's not going to think of anyone else when he died.

I answered this above, and I still think he could have felt some sympathy/thankfulness (that they were still alive) later on.
He does manage in the case of Luna.



He thought of Hermione...when he thought she was dead.

I know. I'd really start to wonder about Harry, had he not!

[Jadecmn]

His caring about his friends when they are in mortal danger proves nothing.

It should be his response to them the rest of the time that needs to be looked at closely.

The other day I saw this girl put her hand into the elevator door trying to get it to open, the door continued closing and I grabbed the girl by the jacket and pulled her back; I was terrified and I've never met this person before or since.

Why should any of his responses toward Hermione when she is in danger say that he likes her in any way but that of a friend?

I son't hold it agains him if he couldn't spare a thought for them while they were in the hospital, I mean, they're in the hospital alive and well, why does he have to worry about them, when it is Sirius that is dead and it is that which he needs to resolve in his own mind. (I'm not sure I said what I wanted to say.)

[Anakin Solo]

I don't see Luna as uncool. Harry doesn't either, as he stopped thinking of her negatively after the chapter "Fight and Flight."



Any romance concerning Harry in OotP has a long ways to go - expecially Harmony (Hermione/Harry).



Where did I say Luna is the voice of reason for Harry? I don't recall writing that.



The problem is, Hermione couldn't stop Harry or calm him down, and Harry's hastiness will just get worse in the future. Hermione got too emotional in that scene, and she wasn't helping Harry's own emotions by bursting into tears. Not that I hold that against her in the least, but any girl Harry's in a relationship needs to be calm and serene in difficult situations to balance Harry's hastiness and calm him down.

I agree, that by Fight or Flight his feelings have changed from his original take on Luna (one of which was her uncoolness)


Hermione has a whole lot more going for her than Luna, about 5 years worth.

Point, I got the feeling that you implicitly implied that Luna was the voice of reason.


Sure, Hermione didn't completely succeed, but she did get Harry to double check on Sirius's whereabouts, and she was also the only one to liven him from his stupor at Christmas.

[GrangerGal]

His caring about his friends when they are in mortal danger proves nothing.

It should be his response to them the rest of the time that needs to be looked at closely...
Why should any of his responses toward Hermione when she is in danger say that he likes her in any way but that of a friend?



Honestly I agree for the most part. Whenever anyone is in mortal danger, Harry usually responds. He responded to Ginny (whom he barely knew) in CoS, made sure everyone in the DoM was ok, he even rescued Fluer Delacour's little sister when he never even met her!

These were all great feats but do I think Harry is going to date Fluer's sister, no.

[Jadecmn]

and she was also the only one to liven him from his stupor at Christmas.


Can you elaborate? If I remember correctly, Ginny and Ron were also involved in the conversation and had as big a part as Hermione did in helping Harry feel better.

[Moonstruck]

Just because she had a pulse does not mean she was out of mortal danger.
In fact, looking at her in the hospital, I had the feeling it was a close call for Hermione.
I would have hoped for Harry to have a worry or two about Hermione's condition, and was a little miffed at him for his lack of caring later on.
( I do understand how overwhelming his godfather's death is, but still...
they have been his best friends for years).

Harry had no idea what spell had hit Hermione. As far as Harry knew (since he's not a Healer), she wasn't in mortal danger.

And Harry not only lost his Godfather, but he also got loaded with the prophecy and believing he was at fault for Sirius' death. Do you have any idea what it feels like when someone close to you dies?


I answered this above, and I still think he could have felt some sympathy/thankfulness (that they were still alive) later on.
He does manage in the case of Luna.

Not for Luna's welbeing, just for the situlation that she was in. He had no idea that people hid her stuff. Remember, people treated him terribly when they thought was the heir in COS and, recently, in OOTP. He knew people treated her differently, but he had no idea how much.

[Jadecmn]

Very good point Moonstruck

[delemtri]

Harry had no idea what spell had hit Hermione. As far as Harry knew (since he's not a Healer), she wasn't in mortal danger.

As far as Harry knew, she was *dead.*

[shellysn]

There have been a few statements in recent interviews with the cast of GOF that the romance between Ron and Hermione expands greatly in this film. I don't think they would be doing that if JK were going to put Harry and Hermione together later on. So far the movies have not strayed in any substantial way from the path of the books.

I see Ron and Hermione and, seriously, I see Harry and Ginny. Ginny is a strong character who, with her upbringing around Fred and George, isn't afraid to take a few risks. Also, she is really the only person, at least so far, who can truly relate to Harry's connection to Voldemort. She has been connected, in her own way, to Voldemort as well, and she is really the only one who can come close to really "getting" what Harry feels about him. Also, she is deffinitely not a person who is going to be overcome by the fact that he's "Harry Potter". She's gotten past that one already.

[esicardi]

As far as Harry knew, she was *dead.*
Actually that's false, since Neville told him Hermione was alive.

[IceKat55]

There have been a few statements in recent interviews with the cast of GOF that the romance between Ron and Hermione expands greatly in this film. I don't think they would be doing that if JK were going to put Harry and Hermione together later on. So far the movies have not strayed in any substantial way from the path of the books.
Very, very, very true. :D

Rowling knows full well what the filmmakers are putting into these movies - - and so far, she's allowed them to point to R/Hr. You also have to consider the fact that not everyone in the movie audience has read the books. Therefore, all the hints pointing to R/Hr would be pointless & confusing to those people, if the last two films were to suddenly do an 'about-face' and throw Harry & Hermione together, out of nowhere...

I see Ron and Hermione and, seriously, I see Harry and Ginny. Ginny is a strong character who, with her upbringing around Fred and George, isn't afraid to take a few risks. Also, she is really the only person, at least so far, who can truly relate to Harry's connection to Voldemort. She has been connected, in her own way, to Voldemort as well, and she is really the only one who can come close to really "getting" what Harry feels about him. Also, she is deffinitely not a person who is going to be overcome by the fact that he's "Harry Potter". She's gotten past that one already.
Welcome, fellow Heron & Chocolateer!

[delemtri]

Actually that's false, since Neville told him Hermione was alive.

Hum. I must have misunderstood something in the previous bits of conversation - I thought we were discussing the situation pre-pulse.

[Angua9]

Now that's sort of weird. It definately holds water with me, but the question in my mind is was she trying to point people in the right direction or the wrong one? Red herring or not? (If she wasn't so ambiguous than it wouldn't be a problem).
You seem to be placing yourself in the agnostic category on the question of R/Hr vs. H/Hr.

How do you reconcile that intellectual position with the author's repeated insistence that we should know the answer to that question already? Do you think that is another misdirection on her part? Do you think she is simply mistaken about how easy or hard the problem is to solve? Do you think she isn't really saying we should know already? Or do you have some other interpretation?

I think this might be a key problem with most shipping arguments – regardless of which way they sway. I think it’s fair enough to say that most arguments ignore the bigger picture, including a character’s function within the plot and how the subplot feeds into the main thematic elements of the narrative.
Just because a given essay or post does not discuss all elements of the narrative does not mean the author of that essay or post has "ignored the bigger picture." They may have, or their essay may be an integral part of a comprehensive, coherent whole. I do not see any point in criticising an essay or post for not doing something that it is not trying to do. I also do not see any point about making sweeping statements about others' shortcomings. Specific constructive criticism can be useful; generalized condemnation is... not so much.

Despite JKR’s ambiguous interview responses, there is also a H/Hr subplot in the narrative and only the very narrowly-focused ignore it.
Do you mean a romantic subplot, or a relationship/friendship subplot? What are the scenes and events which you believe form this subplot? How are they connected together into a cohesive subplot? What is the central narrative tension?

Rhetorical statements such as this…

… beg the question of whether the shipping debate is ultimately worth having at all. I still wonder how anyone can be so intently focused on one small element of the narrative of such a highly complex book series as to completely miss other elements that may contradict it.
Worth having? Who said it was? But I don't believe I am intently focused on any small element of the highly complex book series, and I certainly don't believe I'm missing anything. Please enlighten me... what have I missed?

[delemtri]

The shipping argument is worth having. Any argument about Harry Potter is worth having.

[Corbin Dallas]

The shipping argument is worth having. Any argument about Harry Potter is worth having.
Hear Hear :tu:
possibly shipping might just be too much for some people, it could be frustrating to them and thus their condemnation of it, sad really ...
CD

[IceKat55]

Hear Hear :tu:
possibly shipping might just be too much for some people, it could be frustrating to them and thus their condemnation of it, sad really ...
CD
I suppose that's true - - which, as you said, is sad. I just find it a lovely way to pass the time 'til Book 6 comes out!

*checks watch* Alright, Rowling, aren't you finished YET? ;)

[delemtri]

Hear Hear :tu:
possibly shipping might just be too much for some people, it could be frustrating to them and thus their condemnation of it, sad really ...
CD

They don't understand that we live in two worlds, then, and are trying to answer the pressing questions of one of them.

[GrangerGal]

I suppose that's true - - which, as you said, is sad. I just find it a lovely way to pass the time 'til Book 6 comes out!

*checks watch* Alright, Rowling, aren't you finished YET? ;)

Seriously JKR are you done yet!?

Anyway shipping is about having fun and about reading intently. We know so much and so little about the books that asking what is the point of arguing this could be asked for any topic! We do it b/c it is fun and we enjoy it.

[delemtri]

Seriously JKR are you done yet!?

Anyway shipping is about having fun and about reading intently. We know so much and so little about the books that asking what is the point of arguing this could be asked for any topic! We do it b/c it is fun and we enjoy it.

Not wholly - but I have stronger opinions on this topic than any individual issue of the Potterversity, so I'll keep quiet.

[GrangerGal]

Not wholly - but I have stronger opinions on this topic than any individual issue of the Potterversity, so I'll keep quiet.
I meant in the general sense. Obviously people may be doing it to be the "devil's advocate" or to actually change minds and hearts and souls but if they didn't ENJOY doing any of those things in the first place, they wouldn't be on here at all. So I was just taking it from a broad point of view. Even if you hate Harry Potter (FORBID!) and you hate all it stands for and the only reason you come on here is to mess with Potter fans, you are still on here b/c you get a sense of enjoyment out of it.

[mrs_bombadil]

On a second point I wouldn't be bothered either IF JKR lied to us. I mean it's not like she is murdering somebody or commiting a crime. It's not a big moral issue and let us remember that lying is still not penalized by any law in any country. Maybe in the end we will be very happy that she kept the secret so we enjoy better the books with all the surprises they will contain.

To clarify my arguments regarding the honesty/believability issue... I have not stated that I would feel betrayed if harmony sails, because of being mislead by quotes (I'm not concerned if others have for this particular discussion); I have not said I would think ill of JKR if the quotes turn out to be falsehoods (again, right now, not concerned if others have said this).

My position has to do with the fact that our esteemed author seems to value her integrity greatly (several of us have given many examples of this); she has expressed that she can and should be believed; and she has expressed concern over the effect on fans who might be under false impressions.

I believe that a vast set of quotes pointing one direction when another is the truth, is against her sense of integrity.

Lying isn't a big moral issue? Well, that's not what I try to teach my kids.

Lying not penalized by any law in any country? perjury, plagiarism, libel, truth in advertising, just off the top of my head...

[enid]

Very, very, very true. :D

Rowling knows full well what the filmmakers are putting into these movies - - and so far, she's allowed them to point to R/Hr. You also have to consider the fact that not everyone in the movie audience has read the books. Therefore, all the hints pointing to R/Hr would be pointless & confusing to those people, if the last two films were to suddenly do an 'about-face' and throw Harry & Hermione together, out of nowhere...


Welcome, fellow Heron & Chocolateer!


That is really an excellent point...how do you explain that one to the kidos! Of course, some Harmony believe it will take place at the very end of book 7, when the lives of all the charaters are wrapped up. It's gonna be real interesting at the end of the seventh movie...here we have Ron and Hermy crushing over each other for possibly 6 movies, and then in the end Hermy shows up pregnant with Harry's kid. :wow:

[IceKat55]

To clarify my arguments regarding the honesty/believability issue... I have not stated that I would feel betrayed if harmony sails, because of being mislead by quotes (I'm not concerned if others have for this particular discussion); I have not said I would think ill of JKR is the quotes turn out to be falsehoods (again, right now, not concerned if others have said this).

My position has to do with the fact that our esteemed author seems to value her integrity greatly (several of us have given many examples of this); she has expressed that she can and should be believed; and she has expressed concern over the effect on fans who might be under false impressions.

I believe that a vast set of quotes pointing one direction when another is the truth, is against her sense of integrity.

Lying isn't a big moral issue? Well, that's not what I try to teach my kids.

Lying not penalized by any law in any country? perjury, plagiarism, libel, truth in advertising, just off the top of my head...
:clap: :clap:

Therefore, when Rowling, in the Couric interview, offers us "Ron and Hermione, I would say..." - - with no prompting what-so-ever from Couric - -

I believe her!! :D

[delemtri]

I meant in the general sense. Obviously people may be doing it to be the "devil's advocate" or to actually change minds and hearts and souls but if they didn't ENJOY doing any of those things in the first place, they wouldn't be on here at all. So I was just taking it from a broad point of view. Even if you hate Harry Potter (FORBID!) and you hate all it stands for and the only reason you come on here is to mess with Potter fans, you are still on here b/c you get a sense of enjoyment out of it.

That's not really what I meant. To me... well, basically the Potterverse really is an alternate universe with different systems of knowledge, etc., and with pressing questions similar to our "what is the meaning of life," etc. Arguing about H/H vs. R/H is as important as trying to decide whether light is a wave or a particle.

[GrangerGal]

That's not really what I meant. To me... well, basically the Potterverse really is an alternate universe with different systems of knowledge, etc., and with pressing questions similar to our "what is the meaning of life," etc. Arguing about H/H vs. R/H is as important as trying to decide whether light is a wave or a particle.

Interesting idea...

Would the outcome change the meaning of it all for you? Just wondering...

[mrs_bombadil]

I know the quotes arguments are getting tedious, okay? However, I thought of this while reading over them.

Do Harry and Hermione have a date?

"No. They are very platonic friends."

While I believe that this applies to the entire series, it is debatable. For the sake of the argument, let's assume that it only applies to GoF, like the H/Hr's argue. A platonic friendship means that there are no sexual feelings between the two. Calling their friendship "platonic" means that Harry doesn't like Hermione "like that", and most importantly, vice versa. A platonic friendship goes both ways. JKR didn't say "No, Harry regards her platonically", or "Harry only has platonic feelings for her in this book", so we know that it applies to each of them.

So, in GoF, Hermione doesn't like Harry as anything more than a friend.

Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?

"The answer to that is in GoF!"

If we assume that Hermione doesn't like Harry "like that" in GoF from the first quote, and the answer as to who Hermione loves is in GoF, then we must conclude that Hermione does not love Harry.

I like it! :tu:

[delemtri]

Interesting idea...

Would the outcome change the meaning of it all for you? Just wondering...

Having all the answers at the end basically turns the Potterverse we interact with into a utopia of sorts, which I equate with a dead world. The outcome doesn't change the meaning much. As my anthropology professor put it about some of our reading, "Just because they're not right doesn't mean they're not interesting." Within the scope of the Potterverse we've made our own art in theories and in discourse...

I could talk about this for hours. I really may write a book on it.

[Moonstruck]

Lying not penalized by any law in any country? perjury, plagiarism, libel, truth in advertising, just off the top of my head...

Actually, lying in a certain way is not penalized by law. JK could say Harry could grow two heads and not write it. She would be lying and the law could do little about it.

[delemtri]

Actually, lying in a certain way is not penalized by law. JK could say Harry could grow two heads and not write it. She would be lying and the law could do little about it.

You know the fans would punish her, though. We already have when she's simply been wrong unintentionally.

[IceKat55]

Actually, lying in a certain way is not penalized by law. JK could say Harry could grow two heads and not write it. She would be lying and the law could do little about it.
It comes down to integrity. And I sincerely hope that Rowling has a bit of that, and wouldn't resort to deliberately lying to and misleading her adoring masses...

[Moonstruck]

It comes down to integrity. And I sincerely hope that Rowling has a bit of that, and wouldn't resort to deliberately lying to and misleading her adoring masses...

mrs_bombadil was talking about law, not fans. ;)

[Polychrome]

That doesn't mean it's not illegal. Most police will use discretion on what is or what isn't serious, and whether it should be left alone. All this means is the cop turned a blind eye to the illegal activity.

That being said, illegal or no, I guarantee that lying about what she's going to put would alienate the fans more than killing off all the characters.

[mrs_bombadil]

Actually, lying in a certain way is not penalized by law. JK could say Harry could grow two heads and not write it. She would be lying and the law could do little about it.

Did I say all lying is illegal? No, I refuted the statement than none is anywhere.

Now, let me ask you...if JK made a statement like that, with full intent to convince people it would be the case, knowing that it wouldn't be, would it be moral, in your opinion?

And, it would go against what she says on her own website about her integrity. Truth or jokes; those are the options.

[delemtri]

That doesn't mean it's not illegal. Most police will use discretion on what is or what isn't serious, and whether it should be left alone. All this means is the cop turned a blind eye to the illegal activity.

That being said, illegal or no, I guarantee that lying about what she's going to put would alienate the fans more than killing off all the characters.

To continue in the "Potterverse is a separate world" vein - calling JKR a liar is tantamount to heresy. In less civilized times we would burn you at the stake.

[mrs_bombadil]

mrs_bombadil was talking about law, not fans. ;)
I was talking about both morality and legality. I said I wasn't talking about certain aspects in that particular discourse; but I didn't say they don't matter at all.

[GrangerGal]

Having all the answers at the end basically turns the Potterverse we interact with into a utopia of sorts, which I equate with a dead world. The outcome doesn't change the meaning much. As my anthropology professor put it about some of our reading, "Just because they're not right doesn't mean they're not interesting." Within the scope of the Potterverse we've made our own art in theories and in discourse...

I could talk about this for hours. I really may write a book on it.

I understand what you are saying about the reading and the analysis. It is an interesting idea because no matter how many predictions you may make, they could all be wrong but that doesn't mean you shouldn't make any predictions in the first place.

Being a teacher of American and World Literature, I am constantly trying to get my students to make predictions and to infer the outcome of a story. Right now we are reading Animal Farm and I am already trying to get them to discover the ending even though we are only on chapter two.

(Now that I revealed that I am an English teacher, please do not judge my writing on here. I write these posts as I think of them because they are the one place I do not have to be careful about my writing!) ;)

[Moonstruck]

Now, let me ask you...if JK made a statement like that, with full intent to convince people it would be the case, knowing that it wouldn't be, would it be moral, in your opinion?

I'm not sure I would take her serious if she did make a statement like that. :p

[Clothes]

I think the reality that we don't know who will end up with whom, and I think the directors of the movies are merely drawing their own conclusions, and not getting their insight from Jo. That being said, It is obvious that Ron likes Hermione, and she has shown some slight interest back in him, like when Fluer gave him a peck. I don't really know or have a feel for whom Harry likes, but I think he would look for someone with a little more depth after his encounter wich Cho. I also think when it comes down to it, Hermione shows more true interest and loyalty to Harry througout the books, than she does to Ron. Ron is a vague interest I think, Harry is a serious thought. JUST MY OPINION. Then we Ginny, who is just biding her time and having fun, who knows what will come of her and Dean. And who can forget the small but maybe not insignificant connection with Luna. Also, I think we may see Pavarti and Harry reconnect from their YULE Ball.

[mrs_bombadil]

I'm not sure I would take her serious if she did make a statement like that. :p

Doesn't change the hypothetical nature of the question nor the fact that you avoided answering. ;)

[Moonstruck]

Doesn't change the hypothetical nature of the question nor the fact that you avoided answering. ;)

I'm not avoiding the question. :huh:

[delemtri]

I understand what you are saying about the reading and the analysis. It is an interesting idea because no matter how many predictions you may make, they could all be wrong but that doesn't mean you shouldn't make any predictions in the first place.

Being a teacher of American and World Literature, I am constantly trying to get my students to make predictions and to infer the outcome of a story. Right now we are reading Animal Farm and I am already trying to get them to discover the ending even though we are only on chapter two.

(Now that I revealed that I am an English teacher, please do not judge my writing on here. I write these posts as I think of them because they are the one place I do not have to be careful about my writing!) ;)

One of the most interesting things about the Potterversity is how we've imposed the mystery structure of the books onto the series as a whole as we wait between books... But, it's good to be right, but in the end right or wrong doesn't matter; we're creating beautiful things here.

[GrangerGal]

I think the reality that we don't know who will end up with whom, and I think the directors of the movies are merely drawing their own conclusions, and not getting their insight from Jo. That being said, It is obvious that Ron likes Hermione, and she has shown some slight interest back in him, like when Fluer gave him a peck. I don't really know or have a feel for whom Harry likes, but I think he would look for someone with a little more depth after his encounter wich Cho. I also think when it comes down to it, Hermione shows more true interest and loyalty to Harry througout the books, than she does to Ron. Ron is a vague interest I think, Harry is a serious thought. JUST MY OPINION. Then we Ginny, who is just biding her time and having fun, who knows what will come of her and Dean. And who can forget the small but maybe not insignificant connection with Luna. Also, I think we may see Pavarti and Harry reconnect from their YULE Ball.
Although I agree with your ideas about Ron and Hermione, I must disagree with you about the directors. JKR herself has said that she does have input in the movies to make sure they do not do anything that would contradict the final story line!

Well I am off to bed! NIGHT ALL!

delemtri - I agree! It is a beautiful thing here. OK GOOD NIGHT! :angel:

[hermioneclone9]

One of the most interesting things about the Potterversity is how we've imposed the mystery structure of the books onto the series as a whole as we wait between books... But, it's good to be right, but in the end right or wrong doesn't matter; we're creating beautiful things here.

Wow. That's deep. *takes a couple of minutes to ponder this paragraph*

[Krumpet]

I know the quotes arguments are getting tedious, okay? However, I thought of this while reading over them.

Do Harry and Hermione have a date?

"No. They are very platonic friends."

While I believe that this applies to the entire series, it is debatable. For the sake of the argument, let's assume that it only applies to GoF, like the H/Hr's argue. A platonic friendship means that there are no sexual feelings between the two. Calling their friendship "platonic" means that Harry doesn't like Hermione "like that", and most importantly, vice versa. A platonic friendship goes both ways. JKR didn't say "No, Harry regards her platonically", or "Harry only has platonic feelings for her in this book", so we know that it applies to each of them.

So, in GoF, Hermione doesn't like Harry as anything more than a friend.

Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?

"The answer to that is in GoF!"

If we assume that Hermione doesn't like Harry "like that" in GoF from the first quote, and the answer as to who Hermione loves is in GoF, then we must conclude that Hermione does not love Harry.

You know I think that is the one thing that is overlooked a lot. Even if the platonic quote only means in GoF then all the Hr--->H Harmony evidence from GoF shouldn't apply. The fact that Jo has since then said that the answer is in GoF should concern a few aboard the melodious ship. Great, excellent, wonderful point!

[delemtri]

Wow. That's deep. *takes a couple of minutes to ponder this paragraph*

:) I'm surprised this was this well received. I really am trying to get all of my thoughts on the matter together and then get it all written down in a coherent and convincing way.

[Polychrome]

I'm not sure I would take her serious if she did make a statement like that. :p

And this is why some Herons have trouble taking you seriously.

[Moonstruck]

And this is why some Herons have trouble taking you seriously.

What???????

[delemtri]

What???????

Because you just clearly stated you have no respect for canon. Reread your post.

[mrs_bombadil]

I'm not avoiding the question. :huh:

oh, well, then, how about answering? :evil:

[Krumpet]

One of the most interesting things about the Potterversity is how we've imposed the mystery structure of the books onto the series as a whole as we wait between books... But, it's good to be right, but in the end right or wrong doesn't matter; we're creating beautiful things here.

Also I would like to add in defense of shipping. I think many of here (or at least me) are a lot more curious about what Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised; who the Half Blooded Prince is, and what he will mean for Harry; Who the heck is going die; What is Snape's deal; and many more pressing question then "Who will fall in love with Whom". The problem is even though there are threads to talk about those things; we can't really make that educated of a guess. With "love" at least you have a subplot that you can be relatively certain of.

Plus "shipping" is fun! In many ways this is the Happy Ending thread. Because we debate here, most of the time at least, as though all the trio and their closest friends make it through the war and are going to get married to someone their head over heels in love with. (This is a massive over simplification of some very complex arguments I know).

Also while the debates can get heated, you don't leave the LT feeling depressed because your favorite character is going to die or turn traitor. Even if the Chocolate is torpedoed out of the water by the HMS Signs; the Heron by the Harmony I will still have really enjoyed reading and participating in the "Shipping Wars". Okay this is massively cheesy and I'll stop now, just my thoughts... :blush:

[Moonstruck]

oh, well, then, how about answering? :evil:

I said I wouldn't take her seriously which means I wouldn't believe her.

I could careless if she lies or not. I see it more of it everyday on the news. I lie to my parents in order to keep myself out of trouble (and if you knew my past, you would understand my reasons). As long as I enjoy the book, what JK does and says matters little to me.

[delemtri]

Also I would like to add in defense of shipping. I think many of here (or at least me) are a lot more curious about what Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised; who the Half Blooded Prince is, and what he will mean for Harry; Who the heck is going die; What is Snape's deal; and many more pressing question then "Who will fall in love with Whom". The problem is even though there are threads to talk about those things; we can't really make that educated of a guess. With "love" at least you have a subplot that you can be relatively certain of.

Exactly. Arguing about shipping as compared to Dumbledore's Mirror of Erised is like arguing politics as opposed to metaphysics. It may not really be more important, but it's easier and in a way it's more pressing. As for the HBP - well, that's a very interesting phenomenon that is to me *very* indicative both of the speed and the resourcefulness of the Potterversity; it's also, however, a more material question than Dumbledore-Erised because, like shipping, we know it will be answered at some point. It is interesting you mentioned these three discussions because they really are three of the most definitive questions in the series in terms of the way the fandom deals with them.

Plus "shipping" is fun! In many ways this is the Happy Ending thread. Because we debate here, most of the time at least, as though all the trio and their closest friends make it through the war and are going to get married to someone their head over heels in love with. (This is a massive over simplification of some very complex arguments I know).

Well, oversimplification or not, it's certainly less serious than the other threads; and you do get a lot of people in the Love Thread (no offense intended) who scoff at the idea of an unhappy ending to the books.

Also while the debates can get heated, you don't leave the LT feeling depressed because your favorite character is going to die or turn traitor. Even if the Chocolate is torpedoed out of the water by the HMS Signs; the Heron by the Harmony I will still have really enjoyed reading and participating in the "Shipping Wars". Okay this is massively cheesy and I'll stop now, just my thoughts... :blush:

More intelligent and constructive arguments have been put forth here than in any of the many debates I've had about religion or politics, no matter how much we repeat ourselves. That's one of the reasons I may write a book about it all.

[mrs_bombadil]

I said I wouldn't take her seriously which means I wouldn't believe her.

I could careless if she lies or not. I see it more of it everyday on the news. I lie to my parents in order to keep myself out of trouble (and if you knew my past, you would understand my reasons). As long as I enjoy the book, what JK does and says matters little to me.

That's fine...but I asked a question for the sake of argument. Still waiting for an answer...you don't have to play if you don't want to (even tho you said you weren't avoiding an answer). :eyebrows:

[delemtri]

I said I wouldn't take her seriously which means I wouldn't believe her.

But the Love Thread more or less functions with canon as a given, hence Polychrome suggesting that you not be taken seriously.

[AmmoniaAlert]

Harry had no idea what spell had hit Hermione. As far as Harry knew (since he's not a Healer), she wasn't in mortal danger.

Continued unconsciousness is certainly not a good sign and would warrant a little worry, imo.
Especially since I see this "death scene" brought up as a sign of Harry's awakening feelings for Hermione frequently.

And Harry not only lost his Godfather, but he also got loaded with the prophecy and believing he was at fault for Sirius' death. Do you have any idea what it feels like when someone close to you dies?

Unfortunately I know what it feels like, and I am sure I'm not the only one here who does.
Was it really necessary to bring this up?

I still think it was a little strange that Harry never once thought of his friends' injuries, and I don't mean immediately after Sirius' death.


Not for Luna's welbeing, just for the situlation that she was in. He had no idea that people hid her stuff. Remember, people treated him terribly when they thought was the heir in COS and, recently, in OOTP. He knew people treated her differently, but he had no idea how much.
So, are you saying that Harry can only feel sympathy for someone who experiences something he, himself has experienced before?
I'm probably misunderstanding you?

[mrs_bombadil]

But the Love Thread more or less functions with canon as a given, hence Polychrome suggesting that you not be taken seriously.

I know in some places her quotes are definitely considered canon...I can't remember, is that stated in CoS forum rules?

[delemtri]

I know in some places her quotes are definitely considered canon...I can't remember, is that stated in CoS forum rules?

Imagine if she'd been lying... a world with an untrustworthy God...

[Polychrome]

Relax delemtri...

The point is why should it even come down to asking about JKR talking about Harry growing two heads? JKR herself has said, on her website, that we will know if she's joking. (Something about toenails...)

Your post would suggest that she would actually attempt to convince us of something completely unlikely in order to protect her plotline. "Well, gee... If they all think I'm going to be writing about spinning in desk chairs, they'll never know that I'm really writing about hair care potions..."

You obviously do not trust the author's own words. That is why others cannot take you seriously. As far as many are concerned, if you don't believe the author, the debate is over. You will never be convinced. JKR could write Ron and Hermione getting married in the last chapter, under some crazed magic contract that would bind them forever by their pinkies, and have every other human on earth suddenly spontaneously combust, and you would continue to tell us that she's leading us off the path. No. Nothing will convince you. Nothing is good enough for you. Even the author's own words.

Aw, man, watching that nice Moonlight/Chocolate debate today was so much fun. Whatever happened?

[JordanL]

You made a remark about not believing people know anything about how writing works...what entitles you to say this?

My happiness doesn't depend on who ends up with whom either.

I find your self-righteous comments about shipping to be completely inappropriate in a shipping thread. You are showing scorn for a vast majority of the people here and I don't think that's warranted.

Don't worry, you don't have to grace us with your presence...somehow we'll do without if this place isn't good enough for you.

That was a tongue in cheek comment. I was being sarcastic.

I'm not being self-riteous, I'm jsut saying that letting shipping blind you to the actual point of the book is plain stupid. Whether or not it turns out one way or another, it's still a good series.

I liked JordanL's posts although some of them might be a bit too critical, but I think that as far as Ron and Hermione spending more time together without Harry, that already happens considerably in OotP, they spend most of the summer alone, also with Prefect duties they are spending alot of time by themselves, and how about the week they spent together in the infirmiry at the end of the books, there are alot of times when they are are alone together in the books.

Yes, but in all these cases, JK only put them together when they were forced to be, and in all those cases, Harry was lacking something: their two main functions.

Like I said, it's not impossible, she's just going to have to develop a lot to get there.

I think this might be a key problem with most shipping arguments – regardless of which way they sway. I think it’s fair enough to say that most arguments ignore the bigger picture, including a character’s function within the plot and how the subplot feeds into the main thematic elements of the narrative.

Which was nearly my entire point.

Despite being a H/Hr shipper, I can actually conceive of good plot reasons to remove both from Harry’s life. The question is, is that the way the plot will evolve and to what purpose in Harry’s hero journey? I’d actually welcome a theoretical discussion on that.

Thank you. This is more what I was talking about Mrs. Bombadil.

Thank god someone has finally expressed this. Even being a H/Hr shipper I can say with certainty that there is a R/Hr subplot (although my opinion on the purpose it serves in the narrative and in the characters’ development differs greatly from many on this thread). Despite JKR’s ambiguous interview responses, there is also a H/Hr subplot in the narrative and only the very narrowly-focused ignore it.

Yes. I think she was being entirely facecious when she said we should know. She has made sure we don't know because she is using the red herring, whichever it is, to create things in the plot at the moment. We don't know because we aren't supposed to yet.

Ultimately, I think that the answer will be based almost exclusively on which better serves the plot and I have yet to understand how a fluffy R/Hr subplot does.

That is my main concern with that option. There is no way that I can concieve that she could develop such a relationship, though that doesn't stop it from occurring. Of course, she is a much better writer than me, so who knows?

[Moonstruck]

That's fine...but I asked a question for the sake of argument. Still waiting for an answer...you don't have to play if you don't want to (even tho you said you weren't avoiding an answer). :eyebrows:

And what do you wish to know?

Continued unconsciousness is certainly not a good sign and would warrant a little worry, imo.
Especially since I see this "death scene" brought up as a sign of Harry's awakening feelings for Hermione frequently.

And, as I said, how would Harry know that?

The death scene (as in before Neville declared she had a pulse) is what's important.

Unfortunately I know what it feels like, and I am sure I'm not the only one here who does.
Was it really necessary to bring this up?

It is necessary because then Harry's reaction can be concerned normal.

No, you better consider yourself fortunate that you have not experienced it.

I still think it was a little strange that Harry never once thought of his friends' injuries, and I don't mean immediately after Sirius' death.

Grieving over a death of someone you care about can take months, if not years. Harry will likely not have the time to do that in book six, but at the end of OOTP, he did.

So, are you saying that Harry can only feel sympathy for someone who experiences something he, himself has experienced before?
I'm probably misunderstanding you?

I'm saying that Harry's sympathy came sudden and not from events that happened in the DOM (excluding Sirius).

The point is why should it even come down to asking about JKR talking about Harry growing two heads? JKR herself has said, on her website, that we will know if she's joking. (Something about toenails...)

I said the two heads thing so no one would jump down my throat for suggesting something realistic. I said something that we all knew JK had not said (and likely won't say) as an example to how she can lie without getting in trouble with the law.

Your post would suggest that she would actually attempt to convince us of something completely unlikely in order to protect her plotline. "Well, gee... If they all think I'm going to be writing about spinning in desk chairs, they'll never know that I'm really writing about hair care potions..."

That's wasn't the point of my post. It was to provide an example of how law works, not how she can protect her plot.

You obviously do not trust the author's own words. That is why others cannot take you seriously. As far as many are concerned, if you don't believe the author, the debate is over. You will never be convinced. JKR could write Ron and Hermione getting married in the last chapter, under some crazed magic contract that would bind them forever by their pinkies, and have every other human on earth suddenly spontaneously combust, and you would continue to tell us that she's leading us off the path. No. Nothing will convince you. Nothing is good enough for you. Even the author's own words.

It really depends on what she's talking about in her interviews. I won't take anything for granted unless it is crystal clear (must be come from studying to be a journalist). I'll read her interviews, but I'll wait for the book before I make any judgement on them (meaning if they are true or false). In other words, I withhold judgement until it can be comfirmed.

[delemtri]

Aw, man, watching that nice Moonlight/Chocolate debate today was so much fun. Whatever happened?

Chocolate won, if there's any justice in the world.

Kidding!

[Polychrome]

Plus "shipping" is fun! In many ways this is the Happy Ending thread. Because we debate here, most of the time at least, as though all the trio and their closest friends make it through the war and are going to get married to someone their head over heels in love with. (This is a massive over simplification of some very complex arguments I know).


While I love using this argument, just to warn you, it doesn't always work! :rotfl:

Seriously, this is the Happy Ending thread, is it not?

Chocolate won, if there's any justice in the world.

Kidding!

Relax, I'm on Chocolate. I don't do much actual debating on the subject because I personally feel Harry might date both girls at some point in the series (even though I'm betting on the final ship being Chocolate). But either way it is fun to watch.

Imagine if she'd been lying... a world with an untrustworthy God...

I've mentioned before that saying you can trust the books but not the quotes is just like saying you can trust the Bible but that God is a freakin' liar.

[delemtri]

Relax, I'm on Chocolate. I don't do much actual debating on the subject because I personally feel Harry might date both girls at some point in the series (even though I'm betting on the final ship being Chocolate). But either way it is fun to watch.

We should stop reading HBP on page two when Ron and Hermione start making babies so that we can get rid of all of the internal Heron tension between Chocolateers and Moonlighters before Harry starts dating Ginny on page three.

(Kidding. I'm always kidding. My last few posts should have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that I truly love you all.)

[Krumpet]

Demeltri I agree wholeheartedly. :) Edit: With your reply to my reply (not so much with the 16 year old pregant Hermiones) :D

That's fine...but I asked a question for the sake of argument. Still waiting for an answer...you don't have to play if you don't want to (even though you said you weren't avoiding an answer). :eyebrows:

Okay I'm going to stick up for Moonstruck here. (For one she is one of the few intelligent Harmonies we have left, and I don't want to brave Portkey again to get an opposing view). Mrs. Bombadil I've read the last few pages of quotes and I have no idea what question your referring too. She may not be avoiding it so much as not knowing which one you want answered. Quite a few have been raised in that couple of hours. If you see some one post

I said I wouldn't take her seriously which means I wouldn't believe her.

I could careless if she lies or not. I see it more of it everyday on the news. I lie to my parents in order to keep myself out of trouble (and if you knew my past, you would understand my reasons). As long as I enjoy the book, what JK does and says matters little to me.

They probably feel they answered your question (what ever it is) if you want clarification on something you should ask for that thing. (Not just you Mrs. Bomadil) :)

I feel for any Harmony that posts here, because they are in the minority and often have about five posts to respond to, to every one that a Heron has. Lets cut them a little bit of slack.

[mrs_bombadil]

That was a tongue in cheek comment. I was being sarcastic.

I see...sarcasm doesn't always translate well in here. Yay for emoticons!

I'm not being self-riteous, I'm jsut saying that letting shipping blind you to the actual point of the book is plain stupid. Whether or not it turns out one way or another, it's still a good series.

I agree that it's good no matter what ship sails, as I've always said. I can assure you I am neither blind nor stupid.

Thank you. This is more what I was talking about Mrs. Bombadil.

I have discussed on many occasions my own perspective on ships playing too big a role. In my opinion that is what many harmony theories do. I have my opinions about whether or not a Ron/Hermione romance would be too distracting, or completely useless, or whathaveyou. But, if you want to discuss/debate literary convention in that regard, I'll have to leave it to others more experiences and skilled than I.

Yes. I think she was being entirely facecious when she said we should know. She has made sure we don't know because she is using the red herring, whichever it is, to create things in the plot at the moment. We don't know because we aren't supposed to yet.

That is in direct contrast to what she asserts on her website.

[delemtri]

I feel for any Harmony that posts here, because they are in the minority and often have about five posts to respond to, to every one that a Heron has. Lets cut them a little bit of slack.

Let's keep persecuting them so that their courage through it all, even their eventual demise, is something beautiful, just like everything else that happens here.

I'd also like to add, just so we don't all feel too sorry for them, that I've been double-, triple-, and quadruple-teamed on here and I think other Herons have as well. Sure, we outnumber them six days out of seven, but they give us hell on that one odd day.

[Oumou]

I am proudly a Hemione and Harry shipper. In the Madam Puddifoot article it made me think. Harry deserves Hermione SO MUCH. Afterall it's Harry's story. If you read that article you will understand what I mean. In order to know who Hermione likes JKR needs to write a story showing Hermione's point of view. Harry has been though so much and he just needs to be loved and that person he be loved by should be Hermione. That would make no sense whatsoever if Ron and Hermione got together leaving Harry in the dark. The hero should ALWAYS get the girl in the end Ron will be fine.

[delemtri]

I am proudly a Hemione and Harry shipper. In the Madam Puddifoot article it made me think. Harry deserves Hermione SO MUCH. Afterall it's Harry's story. If you read that article you will understand what I mean. In order to know who Hermione likes JKR needs to write a story showing Hermione's point of view. Harry has been though so much and he just needs to be loved and that person he should be Hermione. That would make no sense whatsoever if Ron and Hermione got together leaving Harry in the dark.

Ugh, no. Nobody deserves somebody so annoying, except maybe Ron.

:) I love to bash characters...

But seriously. Why do you think Harry "deserves" Hermione, or more importantly that Hermione deserves Harry?

[Moonstruck]

Okay I'm going to stick up for Moonstruck here. (For one she is one of the few intelligent Harmonies we have left, and I don't want to brave Portkey again to get an opposing view). Mrs. Bombadil I've read the last few pages of quotes and I have no idea what question your referring too. She may not be avoiding it so much as not knowing which one you want answered. Quite a few have been raised in that couple of hours. If you see some one post

Thank you. :)

They probably feel they answered your question (what ever it is) if you want clarification on something you should ask for that thing. (Not just you Mrs. Bomadil) :)

I'm not quite sure what question I asked. :p My mind's gone numb, but I did ask mrs. bomadil for clarification in my last post.

I feel for any Harmony that posts here, because they are in the minority and often have about five posts to respond to, to every one that a Heron has. Lets cut them a little bit of slack.

Please. My weekend was stressed enough. This did not help. :(

:welcome: Oumou! Don't let the Herons scare you!

[mrs_bombadil]

And what do you wish to know?

First, I was not trying to beat up or be mean...I was playing, hence the emoticons. I agree that you are a very respectful debater (and probably nice person).

This is the post that outlines the hypothetical I was asking about:

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1593434&postcount=1235

[Oumou]

there are MANY clues in the books I don't have time to explain right now

[Jadecmn]

It seems to me that everyone is focusing at one piece of information solely, instead of looking at them all as a whole, in general, you can take any piece of the books and make it mean anything you want.

In fact this is true for life in general, anything can be interpreted in any way, I feel that if you instead look at all the parts in relation to each other, we might get a bigger picture.

By this I mean Harry being worried that Hermione might have died in the DoM, can be seen as Harry being in love with Hermione, but if you remember Harry's reaction when in the Woes of Mrs.Weasly he thought Ron was dead, you can see that it is just concern for his friends.

I will admit that I support Ron/Hermione but only because I see the evidence for this as glaring, if someone were to tell me here is the proof for Harry/Hermione or even Ron/Harry and it was conclusive and solid, I would change my mind I just don't see this happenning, even without taking into considerations JKRs quotes, which while telling I think should not be looked at solely, as the proof should come from the text.

[enid]

The mods don't hang out in here much...do they? It's like a cop walking the beat in a crack alley....you just know it's gonna be busy night! :rotfl:

[Oumou]

why did hermione lose interest in quidditch once harry was of the team
EXACTLY my point Delemtri

[The Leprechaun]

Ok here it is, a collection of my thoughts on the whole who will fall in love with whom. When I first started coming here I read through these forums I found it quite amusing that people would dedicate so much time debating/discussing/sharing their points of view over a small subplot of the Harry potter Story. But then it does become addicting, and it is more fun than the death thread, the 97 what is so-and-sos patronous thread, the is Ron Dumbledore and Nicholas Flamel thread, and my personal favorite Ditka vs. (name any Wizard) who would win thread. Well here goes…
First I’ll start with a few ground statements of things that I’ve observed or that I think is important for my whole theory.

1. I honestly don’t care who gets with whom on a level more than required to write this, or read this thread. Which is to say that while I do “care” and am interested, I don’t feel a strong emotional attachment to said theory. I will not feel jipped, robbed, upset, or lied to if the whole relationship thing goes in the exact opposite direction of what I think is going to happen. It will take me no more time that it does to shrug my shoulders should the “wrong” ship set sail. In the end I am quite sure that it will be an excellent read.
2. In regards to the “trio” IMO (and I think Jo agrees) there should be no doubt in any ones mind that they all care for and love each other. I’m not saying they are all “In Love” with each other I’m saying they love each other. As an example I’m married, I am in love with my wife. I have a female friend who I care about deeply; I can say I love her. (I would say in Platonic way but than Id have to right my own symposium explaining just what I mean by platonic so we could debate it for a few pages….) I only mention this because I see people discredit one member of the trio to “prove” how better the other two would be as a couple. (I will say that as a result if this it does make things hard to interpret at times)
3. If my views are opposing to yours you can rest assured that it in no way means I think you are ignorant, thick headed or illiterate (as well as any other particular insult you may think I think). You may see shippy where I don’t see shippy and I may where you don’t. That isn’t because one of us is dumber or smarter than the other (as a side note if you think I’m dumb please keep it quiet as I’m pretty sure I’ve got allot of people fooled). We all see things a little differently, that’s the fun of that whole free will thing. Just because you think that Harry taking a drink form the water fountain right after Ginny does means that Harry was subconsciously trying to steel a kiss and must be in love with Ginny and all I think was that they were both thirsty doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with either if us.
4. I’m not writing this because I think it will change any ones mind. I’m sure that everyone is pretty firm on where they stand and I’m ok with that.
5. As a quick observation McBeth is quite possibly the most intelligent and articulate 13 year old I’ve ever encountered.
6. I will joke around a bit but you should be able to tell when I’m serious. (Just in case the water fountain thing was a joke, number 5 wasn’t.)
7. If you lock a cat and a mouse and a bowl of milk in a room and you come back an hour later to find the mouse is missing and the milk is gone, do you really have to have seen what happened to know.

OK so here goes. From a strictly want point of view on the love scene Id like to see Harry and Hermione together. Can I really explain why? I guess you could chock this up to the lead male must be with lead female equation that we often see. Or you could say that I like Harry, reading these books has me wanting the best for him, and perhaps I consider Hermione as the best. Maybe its just one of those things.
Now if that cant happen than I guess I’d go with Harry and Ginny. This would be based solely on the fact that I’ve always had a thing for redheads :)
Thankfully for the readers out there JKR has gone a little deeper in the emotional department and isn’t writing this based on what I think. She wants us to consider who is right for each other and wants us to see the clues she’s dropping (well I think she does but I’m not her so who knows). From what I read in the books alone I’d say that it’s kind of up in the air but leaning towards Ron and Hermione, and Harry and Ginny. Now after I factor in the interviews and the foreshadowing that is done in the movies (yes they are cannon) I’d say the evidence leads me to Ron and Hermione, and Harry and who knows (not to be confused with you know who or he who must not be named). Now I’ve said this before but I will again, I’m not of the group that feels JKR is beating us on the head with a Frying pan Labeled “Heron and Chocolate will sail” (but that’s not really her style is it.)
Why R/Hr, I really think that the tension that JKR is talking about is there. I think the whole Yule ball thing reeks of it. I distinctly remember the first time I read it thinking “wow they like each other”. Ron thinks we don’t get it, Hermione probably gets it and at least Harry thinks she does. The arguing between the two, It's not like they are at each others throats so to speak, it’s just part of their routine. With out digging to far I get the impression that at a minimum Ron likes Hermione, Hermione might like Ron, Harry at least says more than once that he doesn’t like Hermione. Now for the sake of argument they are only what 16 so of course that could all change in the next two years. (Teens do that I certainly changed lis more than once at that age)
I think in her interviews JKR has come out and said it as best as she could without coming right out and saying it. Some people say they are ambiguous or unclear, I say her responses are subtle.
I also think that in the movies (though admittedly premature to the books) the R/Hr dynamic has been shown. The hand grabbing that was zoomed in on was there for a reason. The two of them outside of the shrieking shack that had the whole uncomfortable what are we supposed to do two adolescents who like each other in that way feel to it. Now I know that allot of people see the scenes between Harry and Hermione where they are being chased by Lupin in werewolf form as shippy (that word cracks me up, we jokingly referred to each other that way in the Navy). But I direct you back to item number 2. That is completely natural for two people who care for each other like they do to act. Id say that this is very un-shippy. This I guess is where item 3 comes into play. Ok so you’ve got Harry wrapping his arms around Hermione in a protective hug. I see the two of them running for their lives, they are grabbing hands and pulling each other, Harry is shielding Hermione from danger. Other people see the two of them getting chased by a werewolf but taking the time out to grab a quick snuggle. My question here is if roles were reversed would Ron have done anything different with Hermione (other than make the “Ron in danger” face)
Why Harry and Ginny? This one admittedly IMO has fewer bases that R/Hr. We know that Ginny had a crush on Harry. It’s arguable that she still does have feelings for him (Hermione says she’s given up on not she’s over you). The books have her developing for a reason. There is the whole library scene. (Ok this one is a bit week so I’m just going back to the whole she’s a red head thing, that’s a pretty solid argument J).

In the end I’ll say that there is allot of this that is paradigm related.
Does the fact that Harry got Hermione the book for Christmas mean he has feelings for her, or does it mean he did what many guys do and grabbed the easy obvious gift?
Ron’s perfume a romantic gesture or a simple well she’s a girl so I’ll get her perfume.
Did Hermione kiss Ron because she was one upping Luna, trying to calm Ron down, or just giving a “good luck” kiss?
Harry very distressed over Hermiones possible death in the MoM. Is he feeling that way because one of his best friends is laying on the ground possibly dead or, is he upset because the love of his life ….

Ok so that’s about it. Little long winded, maybe but there are longer. Poorly written, could be but in a day it will be buried under about 8 pages so no biggie.

Thanks for the fun.

Fisrt off, I liked this whole post. It is sort of how I originally felt about Harry's LI (I actually liked the idea of Harry/Cho) after GoF, after OotP though I really started to like the idea of Heron.

I have to admit that I am guilty of getting into it a little bit too much, but it might be that natural desire to compete that causes many of us to get a little vicious (getting too vicious is bad, and sadly it has occasionally gotten point).

About the McBeth thing, WOW. I never realized that and I agree.

[Moonstruck]

First, I was not trying to beat up or be mean...I was playing, hence the emoticons. I agree that you are a very respectful debater (and probably nice person).

This is the post that outlines the hypothetical I was asking about:

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1593434&postcount=1235

Like I said, before, I've seen it before. If JK did it, going against her site and everything, it would matter little to me. I don't take my morals (that lying is wrong, execpt in certain situlations) and impose them to someone else. I would be judging her then and I don't like to judge people. Sometimes they give me little choice, but with this situlation, I don't think I would judge her.

Does that answer it? I guess it's not the kind you had in mind, but I do try not to judge people by morals.

[Polychrome]

I feel for any Harmony that posts here, because they are in the minority and often have about five posts to respond to, to every one that a Heron has. Lets cut them a little bit of slack.

Were you here last week? Hehehe.

Well, aside from that, I just feel it's a bit hypocritical that a Draco/Hermione shipper will get corrected in a hurry (or laughed off the board), but that Harmony, which I consider equally debunked, is allowed to continue.

Seriously, why? There's plenty of other ships to debate, with canon clues and even quotes behind them.

No matter what we do, we're always going to come back to the question of whether or not JKR was lying, because like it or not, that is the deciding factor of the entire Heron/Harmony debate. Unless we want to change the name of this thread to "Was JKR Lying?" maybe it's time that we move on, permanently, to discuss other ships. If all the Harmonies leave, well, that is their choice. I would rather they accept what many know is the truth. There are plenty of other ships to debate about. (Two of which are rather important if you ask me.)

Some of you will call me mean. Others will ignore me completely. I just want people to consider the "lying" question, as logically, and as ship-free as possible. I'm not saying it to be mean, or to get an ego trip, or to make myself look better than you. (Ever notice how I don't go around with a shippy avatar or sig?) But I've been saying for months that anyone who really thinks Harry is going to end up with Hermione is setting themselves up for a huge disappointment. I say this because I genuinely pity the lot of you. I debate because I genuinely pity the lot of you.

Well, that's that. Let the post reports, lawsuit threats, and mudslinging begin. :p

[Anakin Solo]

I guess I'm a Harmonian, but a very pessimistic one lol. I'd like to see Harry and Hermione get together, but it's probably not gonna happen, because of JKR quotes. When I read teh books however, I keep coming up with Harry Hermione, sorry, I just don't see how JKR is gonna be able to work a Ron Hermione relationship. Personally, I don't think that the big three should date, in any combination. That is the best way to keep Harry, Ron, and Hermione together, I mean let's be honest, as long as these three end the series how we want too, do the other characters bear much weight? Unfortunately, if it's a given that Hermione and Harry are doomed, then the only other option is Ron and Hermione, which IMO will damage the books. Harry has 2 other love interests, Ginny and Luna, with GInny getting the nod there. Hermione and Ron have no perspective love interests (I mean, no one seriously includes Krum) so, i guess we'll have to put up with Heron...

[mrs_bombadil]

Like I said, before, I've seen it before. If JK did it, going against her site and everything, it would matter little to me. I don't take my morals (that lying is wrong, execpt in certain situlations) and impose them to someone else. I would be judging her then and I don't like to judge people. Sometimes they give me little choice, but with this situlation, I don't think I would judge her.

Does that answer it? I guess it's not the kind you had in mind, but I do try not to judge people by morals.

Okay, that's an academic debate you don't feel a need to have. Now, back to my original point. If JKR, as part of her own personal code of conduct does think misleading people, especially kids, about what will happen in the books is wrong, do you think she'd do it anyway? If you don't care but others do, do you think she'd care about them?

Don't feel you have to answer. I recognize this has gotten tedious.

[Anakin Solo]

One more thing, let's ignore any and all information about the GoF movie please, by the time anything about GOF is certain, we'll *crosses fingers* hopefully have HBP, and I believe that will clear everything up (If R/hr or H/hr aren't togethr by the end of Book 6, they're not gonna get together IN SCHOOL, in book 7

[Jadecmn]

I don't know why some people think that a Ron/Hermione relationship would be bad for Harry.

I think it would be quite good. Although I don't expect to see Hermione and Ron have a full blown make out sessionor something,, in any of the books, I think that a dating relationship between them might make them communicate better and as many people have already pointed out, as Harry's sidekicks they are there to aid and advice him, I think that with them communicating better (and not arguing as much which Harry doesn't like) they might be able to help Harry much better.

[Corbin Dallas]

why did hermione lose interest in quidditch once harry was of the team
EXACTLY my point Delemtri
Actually Hermione made more comments and asked more questions about Quidditch once Harry was off the team than she has in any other book and that includes at the Quidditch World Cup...
Off to work, I know some of the other Hermione/Ron shippers know what I am saying and I'm sure the canon will be asked for it, if you can post the exerpts please I'd appreciate it...
CD

[enid]

I guess I'm a Harmonian, but a very pessimistic one lol. I'd like to see Harry and Hermione get together, but it's probably not gonna happen, because of JKR quotes. When I read teh books however, I keep coming up with Harry Hermione, sorry, I just don't see how JKR is gonna be able to work a Ron Hermione relationship. Personally, I don't think that the big three should date, in any combination. That is the best way to keep Harry, Ron, and Hermione together, I mean let's be honest, as long as these three end the series how we want too, do the other characters bear much weight? Unfortunately, if it's a given that Hermione and Harry are doomed, then the only other option is Ron and Hermione, which IMO will damage the books. Harry has 2 other love interests, Ginny and Luna, with GInny getting the nod there. Hermione and Ron have no perspective love interests (I mean, no one seriously includes Krum) so, i guess we'll have to put up with Heron...
See...I kind of agree with this...I don't give two buckbeek poops whether Ron and Hermione end up together. I think the clues are there for them...that's fine and good. I want what's best for Harry! I don't want Luna, and I DON'T WANT GINNY! Actually, I never wanted Hermione either. I want Harry to date outside the group!

[Polychrome]

I guess I'm a Harmonian, but a very pessimistic one lol. I'd like to see Harry and Hermione get together, but it's probably not gonna happen, because of JKR quotes.

As far as I'm concerned, the fact that you are able to admit this is enough. When somebody admits to themselves the difference between a likely ship and a preferential one, they are able to see the entire picture.

I'm going to make a suggestion. I'm going to test everyone's "ship factor" by bringing a non-related fandom into play.

You may know I'm a bit of a Silent Hill fan. This is the theme from Silent Hill 3:

I Want Love (http://www.unm.edu/~pchrome/IWantLove.wma)

Now, listening to this, and having not known the storyline, what would your very FIRST assumption about this song be?

You would immediately assume that there was some sort of love interest, right?

WRONG! The plotline of Silent Hill 3 has no love interests or romance whatsoever! The theme of Silent Hill 3 is parental love: The relationship between a child and a mentor.

The main character's father is killed by the bad guy to attempt to increase the hatred within her, in order to awaken some ancient evil. There is a character that offers to help her, and becomes the new mentor of sorts. There is an obvious, deep friendship growing between them, but it's definitely nothing romantic...

Okay, so where am I going with this?

Sometimes, we just have to put our ideals aside and live with what the text gives us. Now, in the case of Herons, Chocolates, Moonies, etc, any cuteness or "shippiness" we may see in a couple is like the cherry on top of the sundae. It's certainly not needed, but is just some extra fun. It may not be your cup of tea, but oh well. I'm sure there's another ship in the harbor that will be fitting for you.

[delemtri]

About the McBeth thing, WOW. I never realized that and I agree.

I noted it and respected it. It's another remarkable aspect of creating a new world (see my other posts of tonight) that it seems to knock down other barriers and misconceptions (about age among other things).

[The Leprechaun]

I have a question for the members of the three most prominant ships of which Harry is involved in (Harmony, Chocolate, and Moonlight), just for fun:

Which instance do you think would be the most like JKR's style?

A) For Harry to get together with the girl (Hermione) who he has repeatedly stated was not his girlfriend in the past.
B) For Harry to suddenly see the girl (Ginny) who had a school-girl crush on him for years in a new, romantic light.
C) For Harry to fall in love with the girl (Luna) whom he first thought apon sight as "distinctly dotty."

Most of you know I'm a Moonlight shipper, so you also know my answer is C. :D

Well, I'd say B. Why? Well, it isn't completely sudden. He knew she had an interest in him, and also had Ron give Harry the a nudge nudge wink wink at the end of OotP. It is, IMO, a very huge possibility. I mean now that Ron is actively supporting Chocolate and Harry may not have a lot of time for Romance, he may try it with a newly forceful and speaking Ginny.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

I am proudly a Hemione and Harry shipper. In the Madam Puddifoot article it made me think. Harry deserves Hermione SO MUCH. Afterall it's Harry's story. If you read that article you will understand what I mean. In order to know who Hermione likes JKR needs to write a story showing Hermione's point of view. Harry has been though so much and he just needs to be loved and that person he be loved by should be Hermione. That would make no sense whatsoever if Ron and Hermione got together leaving Harry in the dark. The hero should ALWAYS get the girl in the end Ron will be fine.

I respect your opinion, but your view is VERY romanticized. And even if Harry does get the girl, who's to say Hermione's the girl HE wants. I think there's a good chance that while Harry may like some girl (not saying who) he may not get her. There is a big Harry-Doesn't-Get-What-He-Wants theme running throughout the whole septology.

And while I think Hermione (and Ron) care a lot about Harry, I'm not sure they understand him very well and vise versa. That was made obvious in book 5. I think Harry's frustration with his friends stemmed from the fact that they couldn't understand what he was feeling, how it felt to be him. While this is unfair of Harry, who can blame him from being jealous of the lives his friends have.

[delemtri]

Well, I'd say B. Why? Well, it isn't completely sudden. He knew she had an interest in him, and also had Ron give Harry the a nudge nudge wink wink at the end of OotP. It is, IMO, a very huge possibility. I mean now that Ron is actively supporting Chocolate and Harry may not have a lot of time for Romance, he may try it with a newly forceful and speaking Ginny.

Oh, c'mon. Let's not be so biased about Ginny's past. How about B-prime: For Harry to fall for the only girl who can stare him down when he's angry, the one who replaced him on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, who survived repeated possession *and an attempted killing* by a young Tom Riddle, and who is empirically a badass?

[Dragonmaster]

I am also a Moonlighter, so I would pick C. IMO, it would freshen up the story a bit and give Luna a bigger purpose.

[AmmoniaAlert]

And, as I said, how would Harry know that?

The death scene (as in before Neville declared she had a pulse) is what's important.

You mean you don't think Harry would know that someone who falls unconscious after an attack (magic or not) and remains so for an extended period of time, might be in serious condition?
After everything he has experienced?

You mean he has no concept of anything between dead and just fine?


No, you better consider yourself fortunate that you have not experienced it.

You didn't read my answer closely. I said I *had* experienced it.
And I am feeling a bit put off by your lecturing on this.



Grieving over a death of someone you care about can take months, if not years. Harry will likely not have the time to do that in book six, but at the end of OOTP, he did.

I know this, but you still have the capacity to think about and feel other things, after some time (as we've seen with Harry, just not regarding Hermione and Ron).

[delemtri]

I respect your opinion, but your view is VERY romanticized. And even if Harry does get the girl, who's to say Hermione's the girl HE wants. But I think there's a good chance that while Harry may like some girl (not saying who) he may not get her. There is a big Harry-Doesn't-Get-What-He-Wants thme running throughout the whole septology.

And while I think Hermione (and Ron) care a lot about Harry, I'm not sure they understand him very well and vise versa. That was made obvious in book 5. I think Harry's frustration with his friends was that they didn't understand what he was feeling, how it felt to be him. While this is unfair of Harry, who can blame him from being jealous of the lives his friends have.

Quite.

It's an interesting point you bring up, and one that I don't think has been done justice. I could definitely see this happening and I wouldn't mind it one bit. Actually I wouldn't mind anything one bit. whee....

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

Originally Posted by McBeth
I have a question for the members of the three most prominant ships of which Harry is involved in (Harmony, Chocolate, and Moonlight), just for fun:

Which instance do you think would be the most like JKR's style?

A) For Harry to get together with the girl (Hermione) who he has repeatedly stated was not his girlfriend in the past.
B) For Harry to suddenly see the girl (Ginny) who had a school-girl crush on him for years in a new, romantic light.
C) For Harry to fall in love with the girl (Luna) whom he first thought apon sight as "distinctly dotty."

Most of you know I'm a Moonlight shipper, so you also know my answer is C.

Hmmm....

That's a tough one. They all use a bit of irony, which is very JKR. I guess C.

[The Leprechaun]

What do you mean? Someone asked if J.K had mislead in any of her interviews. This one was a pre OotP interview session (the night before its release day) she was asked if there was any snogging between Harry & Hermione she answered with “Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more tension". Now I would say any R/Hr shipper that watched that interview, that night, would have jumped for joy thinking OotP was when their ship was going to sail, but as we know it didn't. So J.K just mislead them.

Edit:
Changed Post into Pre (punches himself for being an idiot)

Actually you are wrong. Snogging means kissing, hugging, and other forms of well, I'm not sure if I can say it on this thread, but it isn't intercourse. So, what did us Herons see, we saw Hermione kiss Ron and Ron blush after it. So, we weren't let down.

[Jadecmn]

WHat does IMO mean?

[delemtri]

WHat does IMO mean?

In my opinion. IMHO is in my humble opinion.

[Anakin Solo]

I don't know why some people think that a Ron/Hermione relationship would be bad for Harry.

I think it would be quite good. Although I don't expect to see Hermione and Ron have a full blown make out sessionor something,, in any of the books, I think that a dating relationship between them might make them communicate better and as many people have already pointed out, as Harry's sidekicks they are there to aid and advice him, I think that with them communicating better (and not arguing as much which Harry doesn't like) they might be able to help Harry much better.








I think a Ron Hermione Relationship would be bad for Harry because Harry does not like it, as we have seen in the previous books, when Ron and Hermione are together and having fun without him. He was furious at them in OoTP for being together w/o him.

Also, At least Hermione actually went to the Quidditch games when Harry played

[Moonstruck]

Okay, that's an academic debate you don't feel a need to have. Now, back to my original point. If JKR, as part of her own personal code of conduct does think misleading people, especially kids, about what will happen in the books is wrong, do you think she'd do it anyway? If you don't care but others do, do you think she'd care about them?

Don't feel you have to answer. I recognize this has gotten tedious.

It's ok. I feel that it would be on her head and she would have to live with the results of her actions (book sales declining and such). It would be be her judgement call.

I don't know if she would do it or not since I don't know her well enough (personal contact and such).


You mean you don't think Harry would know that someone who falls unconscious after an attack (magic or not) and remains so for an extended period of time, might be in serious condition?
After everything he has experienced?

You mean he has no concept of anything between dead and just fine?

Can you tell me where he would have gotten such experience? That he would know someone remains unconscious after an attack would be in serious condition?

You didn't read my answer closely. I said I *had* experienced it.
And I am feeling a bit put off by your lecturing on this.

SORRY if my OWN experience MERE MONTHS AGO makes you feel lectured.


I know this, but you still have the capacity to think about and feel other things, after some time (as we've seen with Harry, just not regarding Hermione and Ron).

Not mere days after such an event. Unless Harry found something to take his mind off if it.

[delemtri]

Also, At least Hermione actually went to the Quidditch games when Harry played

Mrs. Bombadil killed the Quidditch nonsense so thoroughly I'm surprised you guys haven't buried it yet.

[Anakin Solo]

Actually you are wrong. Snogging means kissing, hugging, and other forms of well, I'm not sure if I can say it on this thread, but it isn't intercourse. So, what did us Herons see, we saw Hermione kiss Ron and Ron blush after it. So, we weren't let down.










I don't think a peck on the cheek counts as snogging.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

Actually you are wrong. Snogging means kissing, hugging, and other forms of well, I'm not sure if I can say it on this thread, but it isn't intercourse. So, what did us Herons see, we saw Hermione kiss Ron and Ron blush after it. So, we weren't let down.

Basically we were mislead, but it was because of our misinterpretation of the word snogging. And who's to say Ron and Hermione weren't doing more than we know about in OotP?

[Anakin Solo]

Mrs. Bombadil killed the Quidditch nonsense so thoroughly I'm surprised you guys haven't buried it yet.










Oh well, I'm new, so I didn't see it, can someone put up a link please?

[delemtri]

Oh well, I'm new, so I didn't see it, can someone put up a link please?

Looking - give me a minute. :)

ETA: Can't find it. :( Mrs. Bombadil had a link in her signature when she first posted it - maybe she'll know where it is.

[The Leprechaun]

Well I think you are "jumping to conculsions" because couric was asking about OotP specificly, not about the future, and you have automaticly desided that her answer is a plus for your ship even adding that its "Romantic tension". J.K answered this with "Harry & Hermione, do you think so?" and then offered "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more tension there" and yes I agree Ron has a crush on Hermione there is your tension, she does not however say Ron & Hermione have "romantic tension" nor does she say "Ron & Hermione are going to end up together"

Lets recap:
-J.K is asked if there is any snogging between Harry & Hermione in OotP
-J.K then asks "do you think so?" (answering a question with a question, pretty dodgy)
-J.K then says "Ron and Hermione, I would say, have more tension there" telling us something we already know, she is not confirming Herons conculsions she is just reinforcing what we already know, that there is tension between Ron & Hermione, now if Ron & Hermione don't end up together would she have lied to you? No she wouldn't have because what she said is true, there is tension between Ron & hermione any Harmonian will agree with that statement, so where is the lie?

Just to note, she has done this before and meant no.

BBC Newsround

Fall 2000

Interview with J.K. Rowling, Transcript

A little more venom in her?
Venom? Would you say so??! No - I wouldn't call it venom…

Yes, she definitively answered it, but she didn't correct Couric at all and Couric most likely is a Heron shipper after that interview.

I doubt Ron had a crush on Fleur. He didn't seem particularly distraught at her refusal (more embarassed than anything). He didn't seem to give a fig about who it was that Fleur did go to the ball with.

Transcript of Yahooligans! Chat with J.K. Rowling

October 20, 2000
Yahooligan_Brian asks: Will Ron ever get a girlfriend?
jkrowling_bn: I'm laughing again... why wouldn't he?!
jkrowling_bn: though he's not doing too well at the moment, is he?
jkrowling_bn: but then, Fleur Delacour was really aiming a bit high.

Interesting how JKR says that Ron definitely had a crush on Fleur. Even if you don't accept it, she said a definite thing.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

Also, At least Hermione actually went to the Quidditch games when Harry played

Where did this come from?


Are you refering to the time when Harry and Hermione left with Hagrid?

I'll assume you are.

Ok, for starters, they had a VERY good reason. And they were reluctant to leave. Here's a few quotes:

"Er... can't it wait, Hagrid? asked Harry. "Till the match is over?"

and later

"Well- no," said Hermione, stretching out a placatory hand toward him. "But Ron, we didn't want to leave-we had to!"

Trust me Hermione and Ron would've done the same thing if Harry was playing. Ron understood after they explained the situation to him.

[AmmoniaAlert]

SORRY if my OWN experience MERE MONTHS AGO makes you feel lectured.


Excuse me, but put yourself into my shoes for a moment:

Someone brings personal experiences into the discussion, you tell them that yes, you have experienced this, they misread your post and proceed to tell you how glad you should be you *haven't* experienced this, and then yell at you when you correct them and tell them you feel a bit hurt by their response (especially looking at the subject).

I'm sorry for your loss.

Please acknowledge that I have also gone through this, and don't feel I deserve your response above.
Maybe this kind of personal experience should stay out of the debate at this time?


Can you tell me where he would have gotten such experience? That he would know someone remains unconscious after an attack would be in serious condition?

Harry watches TV at the Dursleys (secretly), he has been at Hogwarts for several years, talked to many different people, he has read books (history), he has visited St. Mungoes, seen injuries and death, experienced injuries of varying degree himself...

I do think he would have some idea of injuries, and what unconsciousness can mean.

[The Leprechaun]

I have seen it and I still ship H/Hr. Couric did not follow up on JK's response. She did not comfirm without a doubt that R/Hr was going to happen. Couric did not follow a basic rule of journalism; she did not ask a follow up question.

Because Couric did not follow up, the interview holds little water with me.

Except that Couric herself said that she didn't believe in Harry and Hermione snogging and then JKR offers up Ron and Hermione and Couric probably decided that was enough. This is just a guess, but I think it is a decent one.

[Moonstruck]

Except that Couric herself said that she didn't believe in Harry and Hermione snogging and then JKR offers up Ron and Hermione and Couric probably decided that was enough. This is just a guess, but I think it is a decent one.

But Couric stumbled onto something. In journalism, if the interviewee dangles a tidbit of something in one of your questions, you're supposed to follow up, regardless of if you're joking or not.

[delemtri]

But Couric stumbled onto something. In journalism, if the interviewee dangles a tidbit of something in one of your questions, you're supposed to follow up, regardless of if you're joking or not.

Rowling changes these rules.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

Originally Posted by Moonstruck
I have seen it and I still ship H/Hr. Couric did not follow up on JK's response. She did not comfirm without a doubt that R/Hr was going to happen. Couric did not follow a basic rule of journalism; she did not ask a follow up question.

Because Couric did not follow up, the interview holds little water with me.

Obviously you have a right to have your own opinion, but I don't think Couric needed to ask a follow up question. JKR said/implied that it H/Hr wouldn't be snogging but snogging was likely to come from R/Hr. All that Couric can than ask is: So Ron and Hermione are going to get together?

If she asked that JKR would reply with her usual: I think I've made it obvious, but I won't say because I like the dabates. Blah

But Couric stumbled onto something. In journalism, if the interviewee dangles a tidbit of something in one of your questions, you're supposed to follow up, regardless of if you're joking or not.

If that's true than all I can say is that Couric is either not "textbook" or she's a bad journalist. The latter of which I doubt, or she wouldn't be chosen to interview someone as important as JKR.

[Moonstruck]

Obviously you have a right to have your own opinion, but I don't think Couric needed to ask a follow up question. JKR said/implied that it H/Hr wouldn't be snogging but snogging was likely to come from R/Hr. All that Couric can than ask is: So Ron and Hermione are going to get together?

If she asked that JKR would reply with her usual: I think I've made it obvious, but I won't say because I like the dabates. Blah

In journalism, you have to act like your audience is on a 4th grade level. Couric has to assume that someone somewhere is going to ask "wait, does that mean R/Hr are going to get together?" She asks to make the interview crystal clear so no one asks more questions.

Remember, the interview was aired to a general audience. People who haven't read the books could very well ask the question if they saw this. As a journalist, Couric has to remember that.

If that's true than all I can say is that Couric is either not "textbook" or she's a bad journalist. The latter of which I doubt, or she wouldn't be chosen to interview someone as important as JKR.

Here's where I got the info from (found this site this semester): Follow-up (http://www.journalism.org/resources/tools/reporting/interviewing/followups.asp)

Couric is what some consider a soft journalist. Meaning that she allows her interviewees by on questions that hard journalists follow up on. She's good at what she does, host of the Today show and short interviews (like she does on the show), but in long pieces like JK's interview, it's not a good idea for her to interview people.

However, journalism is also a business and stars like Couric tend to get interviews like that regardless of their hard journalism skills.

[delemtri]

In journalism, you have to act like your audience is on a 4th grade level. Couric has to assume that someone somewhere is going to ask "wait, does that mean R/Hr are going to get together?" She asks to make the interview crystal clear so no one asks more questions.

Remember, the interview was aired to a general audience. People who haven't read the books could very well ask the question if they saw this. As a journalist, Couric has to remember that.

Who are you criticizing? Herons? Rowling? Couric? Anybody you can think of?

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

Who are you criticizing? Herons? Rowling? Couric? Anybody you can think of?

Exactly what I'm wondering. I think Couric, but what point does that make in the debate? This proves nothing in relationship to H/Hr and R/Hr.

[Jadecmn]

I think a Ron Hermione Relationship would be bad for Harry because Harry does not like it, as we have seen in the previous books, when Ron and Hermione are together and having fun without him. He was furious at them in OoTP for being together w/o him.

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I thought he was more angry at the fact that they were having fun, not that they were together. I thought he felt it was unfair that they got to enjoy themselves while he was stuck with the Dursleys, I never thought that the fact that they were together was the reason he was angry at them.

[Moonstruck]

Exactly what I'm wondering. I think Couric, but what point does that make in the debate? This proves nothing in relationship to H/Hr and R/Hr.

It's Couric. To me, it matters because, without a follow up, I don't take the interview to heart like most do. Whether you agree or disagree with my points are up to you, I bring this up because I think it's vaild.

[delemtri]

Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I thought he was more angry at the fact that they were having fun, not that they were together. I thought he felt it was unfair that they got to enjoy themselves while he was stuck with the Dursleys, I never thought that the fact that they were together was the reason he was angry at them.

He was furious that he was left out, but Ron and Hermione don't leave him out. They're with him all the time; in OOTP, they're with him so much that he begins to leave because they bicker.

It's Couric. To me, it matters because, without a follow up, I don't take the interview to heart like most do. Whether you agree or disagree with my points are up to you, I bring this up because I think it's vaild.

So because you feel Couric is a bad journalist, the entire interview is invalidated?

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anakin Solo
I think a Ron Hermione Relationship would be bad for Harry because Harry does not like it, as we have seen in the previous books, when Ron and Hermione are together and having fun without him. He was furious at them in OoTP for being together w/o him.



Maybe I'm reading it wrong but I thought he was more angry at the fact that they were having fun, not that they were together. I thought he felt it was unfair that they got to enjoy themselves while he was stuck with the Dursleys, I never thought that the fact that they were together was the reason he was angry at them.

I partially agree but I think he was also jealous that they got to know what was happening with Voldemort. He felt that since he had done more in the fight against Voldemort, he deserved to know more than Ron and Hermione did.

[Jadecmn]

I agree with you entirely Hagrid_is_a_oaf, I wanted to say that too, but I try to not state to much in my messages, just what i feel is most important.

[JordanL]

I see...sarcasm doesn't always translate well in here. Yay for emoticons!

Yes, I should know that by now. You see, I've been around for over a year at all the other forums I visit so they've become accustom to my sense of humor and sarcasm, hence I don't need [/sarcasm] tags.

I agree that it's good no matter what ship sails, as I've always said. I can assure you I am neither blind nor stupid.

Thank God. (I wasn't too sure by the links in your sig).

I have discussed on many occasions my own perspective on ships playing too big a role. In my opinion that is what many harmony theories do. I have my opinions about whether or not a Ron/Hermione romance would be too distracting, or completely useless, or whathaveyou. But, if you want to discuss/debate literary convention in that regard, I'll have to leave it to others more experiences and skilled than I.

I agree that most H/Hr theories bring Hermione to a vastly larger prominence than she should be. Yet another reason why I am reluctant to subscribe to that ship.

Although, I do remind myself that JK is a vastly better writer than most of us, and thus this doesn't necessitate my refusal of the pairing straight out. I think that while a lone wolf situation might be rather awkward, it would by far be the easiest to write. Unfortunately for our author, she has indicated that we will not have a lone wolf situation coming up.

As for the literrary convention and such... I really should condense it all into one large editorial and submit it, but somehow I don't think it would get posted. Just call it a hunch, but I never have things that I write go anywhere.

That is in direct contrast to what she asserts on her website.

I'm aware of that, however I felt rather strongly when I was first reading the FAQ where she addresses the issue that it was stinking slightly of her distinct sense of humor and I interpretted it as a sarcastic sort of mocking.

Plus, if she does indeed enjoy such arguements playing out, there is no better thing she could have said.

She says we should know by now. *shrugs* I felt fairly certain back in book two that Harry and Hermione would end up together, but that supposition has changed with every subsequent book. Thus my aversion to using character development.

[The Leprechaun]

Well, personally everybody will call me crazy, but I really don't get much incensed by the interviews. If any of them had been the moment of revelations to JKR eyes, she wouldn't be STILL dodging the question in the most recent declaration on the subject which is her website question on who Hermione loves.

So whatever said is probably just red herring or simply dodging questions in intelligent ways.

On a second point I wouldn't be bothered either IF JKR lied to us. I mean it's not like she is murdering somebody or commiting a crime. It's not a big moral issue and let us remember that lying is still not penalized by any law in any country. Maybe in the end we will be very happy that she kept the secret so we enjoy better the books with all the surprises they will contain.

So, let me get this straight. You find lying to be a moral action? You believe that lying is alright and reasonable? This is what it seems like you are saying. Whether or not we shouldn't get too atttached to her responses, her lying may hurt those who look up to her.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

It's Couric. To me, it matters because, without a follow up, I don't take the interview to heart like most do. Whether you agree or disagree with my points are up to you, I bring this up because I think it's vaild.

It would have been much easier if there was a follow-up question, but I really don't think it's necessary. Using all the quotes from JKR we can pretty much conclude that Ron and Hermione will have or are currently having a relationship.

This is the frustrating parts for Herons, or in my case an "Extremely-Against-H/Hr"er. JKR gives us all these wonderful quotes that are VERY pro-R/Hr, but none are absolutely concrete. They're screaming R/Hr but always leave teensy holes that allow Harmonians (no offense meant) to argue that they aren't direct enough.

[starfirekelly]

I think a Ron Hermione Relationship would be bad for Harry because Harry does not like it, as we have seen in the previous books, when Ron and Hermione are together and having fun without him. He was furious at them in OoTP for being together w/o him.

Also, At least Hermione actually went to the Quidditch games when Harry played



He wasn't mad so much that they were off together. It was that he was left in the dark about what was going on with "the order"

my 2 cents...

[Jadecmn]

And that's why I think talking about JKR's quotes is next to pointless, I think we should focus on cannon.

[starfirekelly]

I partially agree but I think he was also jealous that they got to know what was happening with Voldemort. He felt that since he had done more in the fight against Voldemort, he deserved to know more than Ron and Hermione did.



this is what i was trying to say. above :)

[JordanL]

It would have been much easier if there was a follow-up question, but I really don't think it's necessary. Using all the quotes from JKR we can pretty much conclude that Ron and Hermione will have or are currently having a relationship.

If that were true then there would be no reluctance from her to simply state something. Most of the quote arguing I have seen from R/H shippers states that JK should be taken nearly literally because "she means what she says, and wants us to know". If that were true there would be no arguement.

As for a relationship now, highly doubtful. Hermione was not overjoyed when Ron became a prefect, in fact she was quite deflated, (mostly from shock), when that is a perfect opportunity for anyone in a relationship to spend time.

Also, when Harry enters the room in Grimmauld for the first time, there are no looks of embaressment, which is entirely out of character for both Ron and Hermione if they were in a secret relationship.

In addition, I have seen no other scenes in book five whihc would mark a complete change in attitude towrads one another. Some might say the part right after Harry kisses Cho, and Hermione says she is writing a letter to Viktor and Ron doesn't respond. The point is, if they were already in a relationship, its unlikely that she would even bring it up in the first place.

[Melcb98]

I think a Ron Hermione Relationship would be bad for Harry because Harry does not like it, as we have seen in the previous books, when Ron and Hermione are together and having fun without him. He was furious at them in OoTP for being together w/o him.

Also, At least Hermione actually went to the Quidditch games when Harry played
OK, first of all. Harry is not mad at Ron and Hermione 100% of them other times they were alone together. This one time, Harry was upset, not at them being together- but at them being together when he was out of the loop, going stir crazy at the Dursleys, not having any answers, knowing that they knew more information than him on his own life, and being plaqued by nightmares of a horrific event that happen only weeks prior. I, for one, cannot blame Harry for getting a little jealous. Show me another time Harry gets angry when Ron and Hermione are alone, and we'll discuss it.

Hermione went to Ron's games.

And that's why I think talking about JKR's quotes is next to pointless, I think we should focus on cannon.
JKR's quotes are canon- and not pointless.

Yes, I should know that by now. You see, I've been around for over a year at all the other forums I visit so they've become accustom to my sense of humor and sarcasm, hence I don't need [/sarcasm] tags.

So we all should go become psychics and know how you treat people on other forums?? I don't think so. Common courtecy is always a good thing.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

I doubt Ron and Hermione are having a relationship now, but JKR, the books, and the movies do seem to be hinting (sometimes very obviously) that there will be one in the future.

[JordanL]

Harry was upset, not at them being together- but at them being together when he was out of the loop, going stir crazy at the Dursleys, not having any answers, knowing that they knew more information than him on his own life

While I'll give you that the situation was aggrivated because of the circumstances, I believe there was a part in the first few chapters which described Harry thinking of Ron and Hermione having a good time together with much scorn, (which you could attribute to the fact that he was not having a good time).

If I had my book I'd look it up, but I lent it to another person who hasn't read book 5 yet.

So we all should go become psychics and know how you treat people on other forums?? I don't think so. Common courtecy is always a good thing.

---->The Point
->
->
->
->
-->You

I was explaining why I out of reflex did not clearly indicate that I was being sarcastic, not convincing you all to read my mind. Be sensible.

On a side note Hagrid, I was born in Orange County. ^_^

[Jadecmn]

As for a relationship now, highly doubtful. Hermione was not overjoyed when Ron became a prefect, in fact she was quite deflated, (mostly from shock), when that is a perfect opportunity for anyone in a relationship to spend time
Also, when Harry enters the room in Grimmauld for the first time, there are no looks of embaressment, which is entirely out of character for both Ron and Hermione if they were in a secret relationship.

True.

[/QUOTE]In addition, I have seen no other scenes in book five whihc would mark a complete change in attitude towrads one another. Some might say the part right after Harry kisses Cho, and Hermione says she is writing a letter to Viktor and Ron doesn't respond. The point is, if they were already in a relationship, its unlikely that she would even bring it up in the first place.[/QUOTE]

ALthough there is this wonderful essay that shows how their relationship did change in OotP: http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-khayes01.shtml

[Moonstruck]

It would have been much easier if there was a follow-up question, but I really don't think it's necessary. Using all the quotes from JKR we can pretty much conclude that Ron and Hermione will have or are currently having a relationship.

With a follow up, there might not be any debate right now.

This is the frustrating parts for Herons, or in my case an "Extremely-Against-H/Hr"er. JKR gives us all these wonderful quotes that are VERY pro-R/Hr, but none are absolutely concrete. They're screaming R/Hr but always leave teensy holes that allow Harmonians (no offense meant) to argue that they aren't direct enough.

How do you think Harmonians feel? :p

[JordanL]

ALthough there is this wonderful essay that shows how their relationship did change in OotP: http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-khayes01.shtml

I wasn't saying it didn't change, just not in that manner... or rather, if it did, JK was trying to hide it well. It does sort of go against both of their functionas as literrary tools to do something like that and never mention it or display it openly however.

(And I addressed (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1592786&postcount=1159) my opinions on that particular essay already.)

[Aidayla_Lily]

True but there is evidence that also points to Hr/H, (CoS movie, dude Harry was stroking her hand in the hospital!...most 12 year boys wouldn't do that...)..JKR always throws us surprises-perhaps a Hr/H ship is one of them...

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

So we all should go become psychics and know how you treat people on other forums?? I don't think so. Common courtecy is always a good thing.

Melcb98, there is no need for this. He was just explaining why he was in the habit of not using emoticons. Why do the majority of people on this board feel the need to attack every little thing?

[starfirekelly]

Is anyone else here just really restless about this whole thing...June or whenever just can't get here soon enough :-p

True but there is evidence that also points to Hr/H, (CoS movie, dude Harry was stroking her hand in the hospital!...most 12 year boys wouldn't do that...)..JKR always throws us surprises-perhaps a Hr/H ship is one of them...


JKR doesn't like...she isnt in charge of the movie.... aren't we all refering to the books?

[Jadecmn]

Melcb98 I someone on an ealier post said that when JKR says something that is positive for Herons that Harmonies shoot the quote full of holes, and as I've read this thread throught the day I've seen this argument go round and round and back to where it began, I am personally convinced that JKR's quotes are Ron/Hermione positive.

[JordanL]

Is anyone else here just really restless about this whole thing...June or whenever just can't get here soon enough :-p

JKR doesn't like...she isnt in charge or the movie.... aren't we all refering to the books?

R/H shippers love using the movies as cannon because, well, there's a lot of onscreen tension, especially on Hermione's side, that is never expressed in the books.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

How do you think Harmonians feel?

While I stand by what I said, I understand how hard it must be to be a Harmonian these days. You're vastly outnumbered, and have to take on many arguements at a time. Every ship has a downside.

[Aidayla_Lily]

yes, but in an interview JKR said that there were hints in the movies (particularly the 2nd, which I mentioned) that foreshadowed "more mature emotions" that she didn't put in 'til later books

[The Leprechaun]

Oh, c'mon. Let's not be so biased about Ginny's past. How about B-prime: For Harry to fall for the only girl who can stare him down when he's angry, the one who replaced him on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, who survived repeated possession *and an attempted killing* by a young Tom Riddle, and who is empirically a badass?

I'm not being too biased, I think Moonlight is almost as possible as Chocolate (Harmony might be up there if it wasn't for Ron).

[Melcb98]

I was explaining why I out of reflex did not clearly indicate that I was being sarcastic, not convincing you all to read my mind. Be sensible.
Ok, thats fine. Sorry. But, remember, as was said- sarcasm does not go over well on here (especially if we don't know thats your intent), common courtesy (at its weakest form, sometimes, i'll admit) does. And people will definataley let you know.

[starfirekelly]

R/H shippers love using the movies as cannon because, well, there's a lot of onscreen tension, especially on Hermione's side, that is never expressed in the books.


But my question is why- forgive me I'm new I guess...but I just don't see how the movie means anything...JKR may write the novel but its directed by other people. And I even thought the screenplay was written by someone else. Once she's like "sold her rights" persay...it's no longer "hers"...so I just don't see how movie portrayals mean anything as far as JKR storyline goes...

but hey- I'll admit I can be wrong...

[Melcb98]

R/H shippers love using the movies as cannon because, well, there's a lot of onscreen tension, especially on Hermione's side, that is never expressed in the books.
Herons (none that I know anyway) don't use the movies as canon. We know that they are not canon. But, sometimes they are fun to debate, especially when we have the makers on our side.

But my question is why- forgive me I'm new I guess...but I just don't see how the movie means anything...JKR may write the novel but its directed by other people. And I even thought the screenplay was written by someone else. Once she's like "sold her rights" persay...it's no longer "hers"...so I just don't see how movie portrayals mean anything as far as JKR storyline goes...

but hey- I'll admit I can be wrong...
JKR has many many rights on these movies. Normally, writers do sell their rights and thats the end of it, but WB and the writer and the directors are working closely with JKR. Granted, more so on the first one, but she still has input.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

Melcb98 I someone on an ealier post said that when JKR says something that is positive for Herons that Harmonies shoot the quote full of holes, and as I've read this thread throught the day I've seen this argument go round and round and back to where it began, I am personally convinced that JKR's quotes are Ron/Hermione positive.

Quotes are canon but Herons and Harmonians differentiate in how they view them. There is no way to make us see eye to eye on them but that does not mean we should totally disregard them.

[starfirekelly]

Interesting, but I still say it'd be best to look to books rather than movie. She has 100% control over what she writes...

my last 2 cents of the night- finals start tomorrow.

it's been a treat! :)

[Melcb98]

Melcb98 I someone on an ealier post said that when JKR says something that is positive for Herons that Harmonies shoot the quote full of holes, and as I've read this thread throught the day I've seen this argument go round and round and back to where it began, I am personally convinced that JKR's quotes are Ron/Hermione positive.
Well, thats good that you think they are R/H positive!

As for the round and round......get used to it, its all we do here. Nothing ever gets resolves and we argue the same points over and over and over and over and over again! Hopefully the next book will come out soon, so we can beat that like a dead horse, too.

[JordanL]

Ok, thats fine. Sorry. But, remember, as was said- sarcasm does not go over well on here (especially if we don't know thats your intent), common courtesy (at its weakest form, sometimes, i'll admit) does. And people will definataley let you know.

Right. I'm glad that's worked out.

But my question is why

Why do conservatives ignor the problems of huge companies controlling markets? Why to liberals ignor the problems that monolithic centralized governments cause? Same reason sociologically. People generally take up a position, then find facts, or pseudo-facts, or construct outright lies, to support their position rather than change it. It's not wrong, it's human, you jsut need to be conscience of it. It doesn't necessarilly mean that they're wrong either. The movies might be indicative, but generally the reason why they use it is because it agrees with what they want.

Herons (none that I know anyway) don't use the movies as canon. We know that they are not canon. But, sometimes they are fun to debate, especially when we have the makers on our side.

Which is sort of what I was getting at. Most sensible shippers don't, but then again, there are a lot of non-sensible shippers.

[Melcb98]

Which is sort of what I was getting at. Most sensible shippers don't, but then again, there are a lot of non-sensible shippers.
The movies are mentioned very rarely among the debates here. Sometimes they are, always with the preface "I know its not canon, but......" And, not just by Herons, Harmonians, as well.

And, just out of couresity- how should I take the "sensible-shipper" comment?

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

Well, thats good that you think they are R/H positive!

As for the round and round......get used to it, its all we do here. Nothing ever gets resolves and we argue the same points over and over and over and over and over again! Hopefully the next book will come out soon, so we can beat that like a dead horse, too.

So true. I remember posting (with another SN, obviously) in this thread long before OotP came out, and nothing really changes. Yet, I'm still here repeating myself over and over and over........

[JordanL]

And, just out of couresity- how should I take the "sensible-shipper" comment?

I would take it and run with it if I were you, because then you could sidetrack me off of otherwise pointing out random flaws here and there. However, if you're looking for the meaning of what I was saying, I was simply commenting on the fact that some people get so hardlined into their ships that they can't enjoy the company of people who disagree, and they can't enjoy the cannon if they feel that their ship isn't right.

I like both R/H and H/Hr, though I have to say that I think Harry is more deserving. However, I don't particularly care how it ends up, which is not to say that I won't try and find out before it happens. I'm just as interested in this debate, I just haven't picked my side yet, and I was simply saying that you should never let the side you picked dictate the kind of outlook you take.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

The movies are mentioned very rarely among the debates here. Sometimes they are, always with the preface "I know its not canon, but......" And, not just by Herons, Harmonians, as well.

And, just out of couresity- how should I take the "sensible-shipper" comment?

I from time to time will bring up the movies (argueing that JKR had input in the blatant R/Hr foreshadowing) but anyone familier with this thread knows the movies aren't canon. We can speculate but never act as if they're canon, unless you want your head ripped off; something I learned in my early years.

I haven't been keeping tabs on the GoF movie. Anyone know when it's coming out in theatres?

[The Leprechaun]

I don't think a peck on the cheek counts as snogging.

It could, I can tell you that it definitely can, in my experience of course. And by definition, if there is something behind that peck on the cheek (that Hermione actually took the time and went through the trouble of standing on her tip-toes to accomplish) then it could be snogging, just minor. And by the quote there is more tension between Ron and Hermione and that may have been a slight move on Hermione's part. I realize that this is assuming some things, but since the original argument is based on assumption (on both the original watchers and the internet watchers). Did it mean they were going to be kissing? No, it meant that there is more tension between Ron and Hermione. Now, since the conversation was about coming of age occurences (which IRL includes dating, acne, cars, and choosing possible career interests), the most likely meaning is that Ron and Hermione have more sexual or romantic tension then Harry and Hermione. That might lead to snogging, which if Ron and Hermione have the sexual/romantic tension then Hermione's kissing of Ron could be considered snogging.

Sorry, if this is confusing.

[JordanL]

I find that to personally be a weak arguement, especially when considering the functions that Hermione and Ron perform in the series, and the fact that Hermione did the same to Harry a book earlier.

[The Leprechaun]

But Couric stumbled onto something. In journalism, if the interviewee dangles a tidbit of something in one of your questions, you're supposed to follow up, regardless of if you're joking or not.

Could be that she was humiliated, but that is just my reading of the scene, when I watched it.

[JordanL]

Could be that she was humiliated, but that is just my reading of the scene, when I watched it.

That's actually what I thought as well. She didn't do what she should have, and I think that's why. However, it is my belief that if she had followed up, then JK would have softened her wording, because its quite obvious that she doesn't want to give this away yet. As I've said, we aren't supposed to know at the moment.

[Moonstruck]

Could be that she was humiliated, but that is just my reading of the scene, when I watched it.

Journalists have to be quick on the uptake. ;) (something I'm failing in :( Oh, well).

[Sienna]

Angua9:
Just because a given essay or post does not discuss all elements of the narrative does not mean the author of that essay or post has "ignored the bigger picture." They may have, or their essay may be an integral part of a comprehensive, coherent whole.

Your point? Given that I wasn’t criticising an essay or even a post but rather making a general statement about what seems to me to be a pattern in shipping arguments in general, I fail to see how what you say above has any relevance.

Specific constructive criticism can be useful; generalized condemnation is... not so much.

Condemnation is an inaccurately extreme term for what I actually wrote.

Do you mean a romantic subplot, or a relationship/friendship subplot?

A relationship subplot of course – just as, in my opinion, R/Hr is a relationship subplot. Whether or not one categorises this as a ‘romantic’ relationship is very much a personal reading and depends on which one ultimately finds full expression.

What are the scenes and events which you believe form this subplot? How are they connected together into a cohesive subplot? What is the central narrative tension?

Are you seriously asking me to go into a detailed analysis of the many reasons I see a H/Hr subplot in this post? Or perhaps you doubt that I have any such carefully thought out reasons. Perhaps, if you are truly interested, you would like me to point you in the way of my essays. You will find what you seek there.

Worth having? Who said it was? But I don't believe I am intently focused on any small element of the highly complex book series, and I certainly don't believe I'm missing anything. Please enlighten me... what have I missed?

Perhaps we need to revisit exactly the statement I was referring to. You expressed your amazement that, after JKR’s Couric interview, anyone could still ship H/Hr. In so saying, you implied that no evidence existed to support such a position. Given that there are many thousands of Harry Potter fans (and some intellegent ones too) who are still able to make a valid and cohesive argument for a Harry and Hermione romantic subplot, it would seem to me that your view is so narrowly focused as to negate in your mind the possibility of there being a valid alternative opinion at all.

Forgive me if I’m wrong but how does expressing amazement that someone can hold an alternative view point to yourself contribute to debate?

Believe me, I am as interested as the next person in exchanging in lively and stimulating discussion about a series that, ultimately, we all love but not if it is to argue for the validity of having an opinion at all.

Sienna

[The Leprechaun]

I find that to personally be a weak arguement, especially when considering the functions that Hermione and Ron perform in the series, and the fact that Hermione did the same to Harry a book earlier.

Just as a curiuosity, what is a weak argument?

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

I find that to personally be a weak arguement, especially when considering the functions that Hermione and Ron perform in the series, and the fact that Hermione did the same to Harry a book earlier.

When watching the clip, I didn't think JKR was using the word snogging literally.

JKR: Ron and Hermione, I would say, have... there's more... tension there.

She said Ron and Hermione were more likely to snog in OotP. She didn't say they would snog, she basically said: If Hermione's going to be snogging anyone in OotP it would be Ron, because there's more tension there.

[JordanL]

Sienna, I think I like you. We seem to think a lot alike...

[The Leprechaun]

Oh, by the way it is good to see a fellow Oregonian here, JordanL.

[JordanL]

.She said Ron and Hermione were more likely to snog in OotP. She didn't say they would snog, she basically said: If Hermione's going to be snogging anyone in OotP it would be Ron, because there's more tension there.

Which makes sense froma literrary point of view, but doesn't seem to be indicative of much, which is what I was getting at.

Oh, by the way it is good to see a fellow Oregonian here, JordanL.

Eh? What part are you from?

Just as a curiuosity, what is a weak argument?

A weak arguement is an arguement that could easily be true, but is entirely circumstancial or is not entirely abnormal. It was abnormal for Hermione to part with Ron in that way, but it was not something she had never done before, which makes the actual meaning entirely circustancial and contextual, which we have no way of interpretting with only the note that was made on it in the book.

It might be a true indicator, but there's no was to differentiate it from other such instances.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

That's actually what I thought as well. She didn't do what she should have, and I think that's why. However, it is my belief that if she had followed up, then JK would have softened her wording, because its quite obvious that she doesn't want to give this away yet. As I've said, we aren't supposed to know at the moment.

I think we're supposed to know, but she's not going to tell us through interviews, rather through her writing. Take this for example:

hermione 3: ¿will Harry and Hermione will be together?*sight*
JK Rowling replies -> lol Not saying... but you've had enough clues by now, surely?!

&

Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?
JKR: I can't believe that some of you haven't worked this one out yet, but I'm not going to answer because that would spoil the arguments, which I enjoy.

She thinks it's obvious but won't tell us because she doesn't want to ruin the debates.

[Polychrome]

Just as a curiuosity, what is a weak argument?

We'll know if any argument lasts until next Monday...

[The Leprechaun]

Which makes sense froma literrary point of view, but doesn't seem to be indicative of much, which is what I was getting at.

Eh? What part are you from?

First one, I was presenting an argument that was based on assupmtion, just like the argument that states that the quote was misleading, when it wasn't.

Second, Corvallis. It's is a beautiful city, if you haven't been.

[JordanL]

She thinks it's obvious but won't tell us because she doesn't want to ruin the debates.

i learned long ago to stop taking what JK has to say at face value, and I see no reason to do so here. In fact, I am utterly astonished at how Heron's seem to dig as deep as they can into the text to find the hidden meanings but take such quotes quite literally and at face value. Quite duplicitous.

First one, I was presenting an argument that was based on assupmtion, just like the argument that states that the quote was misleading, when it wasn't.

Which is a great point.

Second, Corvallis. It's is a beautiful city, if you haven't been.

I love Corvallis. I assume you go to OSU then. That's where I'm applying this year.

[The Leprechaun]

A weak arguement is an arguement that could easily be true, but is entirely circumstancial or is not entirely abnormal. It was abnormal for Hermione to part with Ron in that way, but it was not something she had never done before, which makes the actual meaning entirely circustancial and contextual, which we have no way of interpretting with only the note that was made on it in the book.

It might be a true indicator, but there's no was to differentiate it from other such instances.

I know, what a weak argument is. I was asking what argument you were referring to.

[JordanL]

I know, what a weak argument is. I was asking what argument you were referring to.

Oh. Sorry. The arguement that the kiss on the cheek automatically indicates some hidden thing that is going on or will be going on between Ron and Hermione. It very well may, but saying that that is the only interpretation that makes sense is a huge leap, (though one I don't think you were making). I was quite simply saying that you might be overplaying or misplacing the importance of that scene.

[The Leprechaun]

i learned long ago to stop taking what JK has to say at face value, and I see no reason to do so here. In fact, I am utterly astonished at how Heron's seem to dig as deep as they can into the text to find the hidden meanings but take such quotes quite literally and at face value. Quite duplicitous.

I love Corvallis. I assume you go to OSU then. That's where I'm applying this year.

Ummm...., that is what Harmonians do.

Nope, I currently and sadly don't go to college. If I did, I'd go to LBCC.

[JordanL]

Ummm...., that is what Harmonians do.

I never said they didn't, however, they seem to do it less frequently, and their arguements seem to rely less on doing so. That's just in my experience however.

[The Leprechaun]

Oh. Sorry. The arguement that the kiss on the cheek automatically indicates some hidden thing that is going on or will be going on between Ron and Hermione. It very well may, but saying that that is the only interpretation that makes sense is a huge leap, (though one I don't think you were making). I was quite simply saying that you might be overplaying or misplacing the importance of that scene.

I was offering a different viewpoint, that is all. I said that it was taking a lot of assuming to get my deductions.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

i learned long ago to stop taking what JK has to say at face value, and I see no reason to do so here. In fact, I am utterly astonished at how Heron's seem to dig as deep as they can into the text to find the hidden meanings but take such quotes quite literally and at face value. Quite duplicitous.



Which is a great point.



I love Corvallis. I assume you go to OSU then. That's where I'm applying this year.

Yes, that is a trait most people in this thread have. I try to make an attempt to view things two ways. One at face value, like you said, and then the deeper meaning. However this normally doesn't work, as my brain completely dumps one side of the arguement.

Oh good. I'm blathering again. :rolleyes:

[JordanL]

Yes, that is a trait most people in this thread have. I try to make an attempt to view things two ways. One at face value, like you said, and then the deeper meaning. However this normally doesn't work, as my brain completely dumps one side of the arguement.

Oh good. I'm blathering again. :rolleyes:

It's to be expected. It's just the way people are. If there's one thing I know from studying psychology and sociology its that.

[The Leprechaun]

I never said they didn't, however, they seem to do it less frequently, and their arguements seem to rely less on doing so. That's just in my experience however.

Well, some have definitely done that. Symbolic Flight is a good example and so is the fact that Harry has yet to show any interest and Hermione we just aren't sure of (both have at one point said the idea of them dating was rubbish). Ron on the other hand is very much interested in Hermione and with exception of it actually being stated, that is pretty much a sure thing.

[Hagrid_Is_A_Oaf]

Oh. Sorry. The arguement that the kiss on the cheek automatically indicates some hidden thing that is going on or will be going on between Ron and Hermione. It very well may, but saying that that is the only interpretation that makes sense is a huge leap, (though one I don't think you were making). I was quite simply saying that you might be overplaying or misplacing the importance of that scene.


I agree. I always took the kiss on the cheek as a "good luck wish". Just like the kiss on the cheek to Harry was a sign of support. But the boys reactions are what is important. Harry just comments that it was something she'd never done before, while Ron blushes and is puzzled. This reiterates (sp?) the fact that Ron has feelings for Hermione and Harry doesn't.

Anyway, I'm going to bed.

Have a Happy Tuesday.

[baekjool]

People in this thread are relentless, but, hey, it's all good fun.

I have a few thoughts that I would like to post (and that I'm sure would be utterly ignored), bare with me because my English is not that great and it tends to confuse people, even me.

1. I don't think JKR would ever LIE about the plot of her books in an interview, she is only passionately protective of the plot and extremely careful of not spoiling anything until the book is out in the shelves (even after). The only way of doing this, (besides becoming a recluse in her mansion and avoiding all kinds of interviews and questions, especially the ones coming from obsessed fans that are starving for new information) is being S-U-B-T-L-E, JKR is very subtle, and sometimes not very so (THEY-ARE-PLATONIC) in her answers, but she isn’t a liar.

In the shipping front, in order to make the situation less predictable, she has to write some ambiguous scenes to compensate with the ones that extremely obvious but necessary, same thing in the movies, you have all this obvious scenes between Ron and Hermione (and many more that have been cut) so you add a bit of Harry and Hermione action there with all the hand grabbing and protecting, but, Guess what?! there's no TENSION, picture this: an older brother with his sister in a dangerous situation (mugging attempt, accident, fire, etc.) the brother would instantly become protective, maybe shielding his sister from danger, pulling her towards safety, etc., but you wouldn't make anything out of it, he’s just being protective, nothing sexual going on there.

2. I think that many people are biased because in the movies the actors that portray the trio, especially Dan and Emma are very good looking and articulate and the screenwriter (Kloves) gives them very good material to work with (especially Emma). This is not the case with Ron, Rupert is somewhat awkward and shy (and sometimes downright weird), and although I think he's the more natural actor of the three, the way he's MADE to portray Ron is not very flattering, he has been stripped of all his good lines and scenes (e.g.: yelling at Snape when he insults Hermione, the "You'll have to kill us too" line, going against Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle by himself outside the shrieking shack, pushing Harry out of harm's way when attacked by the giant black dog, trying to get up to help Harry even with a broken leg) and being reduced to play the scared sort of wimpy character, comic relief, if you will, so people would of course ask: “What would she see in him? Harry’s better for her”. And they get confused if they're shipping H/H or Dan/Emma. But still, the screenwriter and the director kept the R/H storyline and it’s developing faster than in the books, so in GOF we will probably see a lot more of this.

My theory is this: Book 6 will be released next June and it will have some sort of resolution between R/H and when the film is released in late November we will already know that they will end up together and so in the GOF movie they’ll have a resolution to the R/H storyline too, so no one is being spoiled.

So, the fact remains, JKR is going with R/H, face it, it’s going to happen (if they don’t get killed off or something), and it’s good thing that she is taking her time with this relationship, (unlike Harry and Cho) because we are shown how Ron is maturing, coming into his own and dealing with some issues like his lack of confidence and need of recognition, and I’m not saying that Hermione doesn’t have issues because she does and probably just as serious as Ron’s but probably not that apparent.
Hope my english wasn't all that bad.

And one more thing:
¡¡ARRIBA EL MONTERREY!! ¡¡VAMOS RAYADOS!!

[Jadecmn]

baekjool you are my hero.

Everyone, goodnight!

[JordanL]

This is more what I was referring to. jool, that was very long winded, but you said very little. A few things about the movies, (acurate observations in some cases; i do think some H/Hr shippers are actually Dan/Emma shippers), but you sorta missed what I was saying.

So, the fact remains, JKR is going with R/H, face it, it’s going to happen

The fact? Sorry, fact is her saying "Yes, they're going to have a jolly time snogging in the next book". Not, "the way I interpret what has been said is this so you have to agree with me".

I don't know why, but this debate is almost worse than most politics debates. At least in those, most people can distinguish from facts and opinions. :rolleyes:

[The Leprechaun]

The fact? Sorry, fact is her saying "Yes, they're going to have a jolly time snogging in the next book". Not, "the way I interpret what has been said is this so you have to agree with me".

I don't know why, but this debate is almost worse than most politics debates. At least in those, most people can distinguish from facts and opinions. :rolleyes:

That is not the fact. The fact is the chance you will see Ron and Hermione snogging in the last three books is higher the Harry and Hermione, due to the fact that Ron and Hermione have more tension. That is more of the fact than what you are saying.

This is actually much better than political debates, but we should not go into politics on this thread as it could get even nastier. Have you read the opinion pages in The Oregonian? That gets much worse, because they are allowed to insult the previous opinion writers.

[Rhianwen]

Okay; I'm braving the Romance Thread! Please don't hurt me! [Cowers in fear]

I'm definitely a Ron/Hermione person. For a lot of reasons. I don't expect anyone to buy them, just as I know no one will expect me to abandon them. :)

The first one is the bickering. It starts out in PS/SS as two cute little kids taking shots at each other while Harry watches in slight annoyance but greater indifference and more or less sides with Ron, and gradually mellows into two friends having the sorts of little bickers friends have all the time. Debating, I'd call it. While poor Harry looks on in (vociferous) annoyance (OoTP). However, I am horridly biased, because my fiance and I do this all the time, and have a blast at it. Although our friends do not. Thus, I have a hard time seeing anything sinister or potentially abusive in it (although I am aware of the danger of associating too closely with the characters, or making assumptions of what they should like based on what you like).

The next is that I genuinely see mutual interest. It's much more obvious that Ron's interested in her, but I don't think she is indifferent to him. I just have this crazy feelin'. :)

Hermione has fun with Ron. I think she needs some time to have that sort of childlike playtime. And Ron could definitely use her stabilizing influence. I think it's a case of both helping the other out.

The next reason I like them doesn't have so much to do with how their personalities compliment one another, but we're all agreed that the books are "Harry Potter and the...", not "Ron Weasley and the..." or even "Hermione Granger and the..."
And maybe it's just that I like Ron a lot more than he's supposed to be liked (though truth be told, I like Hermione more), but I really, really don't like the idea of Hermione being elevated to the Heroine status, while Ron is left as the comedic sidekick. It just makes a lot more sense to me to have Ron and Hermione together, supporting Harry, than Ron in Harry and Hermione's combined shadow, considering the page space Ron's already received. I just don't get the sense that the books have been going this way. Ron and Hermione are both equally important to Harry, for different reasons. And I loved how they seemed to be working together to help him in OoTP.

Anyway, these are just my views, and they are neither original nor likely coherent at the moment, but they are simply the best I can do at the moment to articulating some of the reasons that I like this pairing.

It's really more of an instinctive thing. It just feels right to me, which I know won't hold up in a debate. :blush:

[Runs away and hides shyly]

[baekjool]

O.K., I only included the word "Fact" to tick people like you off, would you accept instead of "fact", "it's clear that..." or "is evident that..." or "apparently she is...".

Better now?

No se enojen, esto es un juego...

[The Leprechaun]

Okay; I'm braving the Romance Thread! Please don't hurt me! [Cowers in fear]

I'm definitely a Ron/Hermione person. For a lot of reasons. I don't expect anyone to buy them, just as I know no one will expect me to abandon them. :)

The first one is the bickering. It starts out in PS/SS as two cute little kids taking shots at each other while Harry watches in slight annoyance but greater indifference and more or less sides with Ron, and gradually mellows into two friends having the sorts of little bickers friends have all the time. Debating, I'd call it. While poor Harry looks on in (vociferous) annoyance (OoTP). However, I am horridly biased, because my fiance and I do this all the time, and have a blast at it. Although our friends do not. Thus, I have a hard time seeing anything sinister or potentially abusive in it (although I am aware of the danger of associating too closely with the characters, or making assumptions of what they should like based on what you like).

The next is that I genuinely see mutual interest. It's much more obvious that Ron's interested in her, but I don't think she is indifferent to him. I just have this crazy feelin'. :)

Hermione has fun with Ron. I think she needs some time to have that sort of childlike playtime. And Ron could definitely use her stabilizing influence. I think it's a case of both helping the other out.

The next reason I like them doesn't have so much to do with how their personalities compliment one another, but we're all agreed that the books are "Harry Potter and the...", not "Ron Weasley and the..." or even "Hermione Granger and the..."
And maybe it's just that I like Ron a lot more than he's supposed to be liked (though truth be told, I like Hermione more), but I really, really don't like the idea of Hermione being elevated to the Heroine status, while Ron is left as the comedic sidekick. It just makes a lot more sense to me to have Ron and Hermione together, supporting Harry, than Ron in Harry and Hermione's combined shadow, considering the page space Ron's already received. I just don't get the sense that the books have been going this way. Ron and Hermione are both equally important to Harry, for different reasons. And I loved how they seemed to be working together to help him in OoTP.

Anyway, these are just my views, and they are neither original nor likely coherent at the moment, but they are simply the best I can do at the moment to articulating some of the reasons that I like this pairing.

It's really more of an instinctive thing. It just feels right to me, which I know won't hold up in a debate. :blush:

[Runs away and hides shyly]

:welcome: to the great ship, Heron! It is nice to have you aboard.

[JordanL]

That is not the fact. The fact is the chance you will see Ron and Hermione snogging in the last three books is higher the Harry and Hermione, due to the fact that Ron and Hermione have more tension. That is more of the fact than what you are saying.

This is actually much better than political debates, but we should not go into politics on this thread as it could get even nastier. Have you read the opinion pages in The Oregonian? That gets much worse, because they are allowed to insult the previous opinion writers.

I would agree that the tension is higher from our perspective on the story, however, I'm not sure how that translates. Yes, that would mean a higher probability, however, I still sling to my literrary functions arguement in that there are some major obstacles to be overcome if it's going to happen for real. This is my personal prediction.

In the next book, sometime aorund Christmas, Ron and Hermione will "go out" for lack of a better term. Something small and awkward. It will be overshadowed by whatever is happenning to Harry at the time, and he will be too busy to care. Ron will tlak to him about, and Harry will feel a slew of conflicting emotions, but he will mostly be happy for Ron, (though probably find the situation a little weird).

Sometime after Christmas, perhaps on a hogsmead weekend, Ron and Hermione will spend the whole day together while Harry is off doing something else. They will come to some sort of realization that while they are wonderful friends with each other, they are more mutual friends of Harry's and that it is Harry that really holds them together, making the situation very odd, and it will sort of peter out by the end of the book.

After that, I'm not so sure, however that would resolve the tension and the building action and still fulfill, and actually reenforce, the literrary functions of both characters.

But that's just my best guess at the moment.

O.K., I only included the word "Fact" to tick people like you off, would you accept instead of "fact", "it's clear that..." or "is evident that..." or "apparently she is...".

Better now?

No se enojen, esto es un juego...

:rolleyes:

Just like you were making a point, so was I.

No jugaré tus juego.

[Rhianwen]

:welcome: to the great ship, Heron! It is nice to have you aboard.

Hee! Thanks! I likes it here. :)

(Note: I am not entirely certain of the policy toward One-Line Replies that Do Not Address the Topic At Hand, and shall endeavour to make up for the One-Linedness of my post by asserting my liking of Draco/Pansy)

[JordanL]

Rhianwen that was a great justification for what you think.

[reinigt]

I am not sure if someone has said this yet, an forgive me but I did not have enough time to search through all the posts, but anyways... but the trio's situation or potential situation remind me of the movie Pearl Harbor and that love triangle. Now could this happen to the trio in HP...I think so! Anyone who has seen the movie will know what I am talking about....but for the benefit of those who havent seen it here is the short of it.......two friends go to be military pilots in doing so one of them meets a nurse and falls in love. Now that same guy goes off to war while the other guy stays. The guy that goes off to war dies and his buddy falls in love with the nurse.BUT the guy that supposidly dies comes back finds out and is ******. In the end both pilots go on one final mission and the guy who originally liked the nurse lives while the other dies leaving the nurse pregnant! I apologize for my ramble but once again most of you have probably seen the movie so you know what I am talking about. ..there is more involved but you get the idea. I see this happening to the trio in HP!

[JordanL]

That would be a vastly interesting plot if it were parralelled to any degree in the books, but I somehow doubt it.

[baekjool]

This is more what I was referring to. jool, that was very long winded, but you said very little. A few things about the movies, (acurate observations in some cases; i do think some H/Hr shippers are actually Dan/Emma shippers), but you sorta missed what I was saying.

So I said very little, let's review, I said:
- That JKR does not lie.
- That she's doing her best not to be too obvious about the R/H storyline.
- That there is not any sexual tension between H/H.
- That a lot of H/H shippers are biased because of the movies (at least you acknowledged this).
- That the screenwriter and director of the movies are picking up the R/H storyline.
- That JKR is taking the R/H thing slowly, which is a good thing.

And I gave arguments for every each one of these. Considering that this topics are covered by tens of thousands of posts on this thread only, I think that I covered a lot in quite a little bit of space, Don't you think? And I haven't even read your post, I only read something about JKR lying and build it up from there.

[Angua9]

Are you seriously asking me to go into a detailed analysis of the many reasons I see a H/Hr subplot in this post? Or perhaps you doubt that I have any such carefully thought out reasons. Perhaps, if you are truly interested, you would like me to point you in the way of my essays. You will find what you seek there.
No, I am asking you to do a brief surface outline of the "H/Hr subplot." I asked the relevant questions -- what scenes and events? Connected how? With what narrative tension? That should be simple (and quick) to do for any subplot you see in the books. If you like, I will do an example for any subplot of your choosing (that I see in the books).

I'm sorry, I have read many (most?) of your essays, but I have not seen anything that answers those questions. Perhaps I missed the relevant parts.

Perhaps we need to revisit exactly the statement I was referring to. You expressed your amazement that, after JKR’s Couric interview, anyone could still ship H/Hr. In so saying, you implied that no evidence existed to support such a position.
No, I implied that the Couric interview statement all by itself was strong enough to outweigh all existing evidence supporting such a position. And I most certainly did not say "ship H/Hr;" I said "believe JKR will write H/Hr" -- there is an important distinction there.

In fact, if the Couric statement had been reversed, I would find it very difficult to believe that R/Hr will happen, despite the very large amount of evidence existing to support R/Hr. I am not capable of suspending my respect for Rowling's superior knowledge and authority to that extent.

Forgive me if I’m wrong but how does expressing amazement that someone can hold an alternative view point to yourself contribute to debate?
It is my opinion. The amazement is not that anyone could hold an alternative viewpoint to mine, but -- quite frankly -- that they could hold an alternative viewpoint, apparently, to the creator of the series. Like I said, I would not be able to continue believing that the ship I see in canon would happen if JKR reacted in that manner to it. I understand that you and hundreds/thousands/whatever of your shipmates are able to make that leap, but I could not.

It was also part of an explanation, which Moonstruck requested, of why I and my like-minded friends were so elated about the interview, despite the fact that it did not lead us to expect R/Hr snogging in Book 5.

ETA:
Welcome, Rhianwen! :) I like your opinions very much indeed.

[JordanL]

- That JKR does not lie.

Which is a moot point, because I wasn't claiming she was.

- That she's doing her best not to be too obvious about the R/H storyline.

Which is another moot point because it assumes that R/H is fact in the first place. I'm looking at the book, not how the book is developing a specific plot twist I'm anticipating.

- That there is not any sexual tension between H/H.

Something I agree with.

- That a lot of H/H shippers are biased because of the movies (at least you acknowledged this).

I didn't say a lot, I said some, but yes, a few people confuse the two. *points up to a R/H shipper*

- That the screenwriter and director of the movies are picking up the R/H storyline.

More like writing in. In the spots that it occurs there is nothing in the books to equate it to.

- That JKR is taking the R/H thing slowly, which is a good thing.

Something that I addressed already.

And I haven't even read your post, I only read something about JKR lying and build it up from there.

Well, don't let me stop you. Keep going. So far you've stated the obvious, cannonized your opinions, taken a few cheap shots, and for some reason have spoken in spanish.

I'd say you're on a roll.

[baekjool]

for some reason have spoken in spanish.
And you did too...poorly.

This thread is exactly about this, beating around the bush, running around in circles, pushing each other's buttons, and making theories that we cannot possibly hope to prove until JKR is able to finish her entire series.

Some of us don't have the energy or the time to read through this huge thread, so I'm sorry if I sound repetitive to you, I don't come here often, and when I do is mainly to practice my english, so, back to my numbers now...

I made my point, people in this thread ARE relentless, which is a good thing... :)

[eyemlost]

Oh, c'mon. Let's not be so biased about Ginny's past. How about B-prime: For Harry to fall for the only girl who can stare him down when he's angry, the one who replaced him on the Gryffindor Quidditch team, who survived repeated possession *and an attempted killing* by a young Tom Riddle, and who is empirically a badass?


Plus she is a redhead. Im sure thats as important as the Green eye thing :eyebrows:

[Corbin Dallas]

And you did too...poorly.

This thread is exactly about this, beating around the bush, running around in circles, pushing each other's buttons, and making theories that we cannot possibly hope to prove until JKR is able to finish her entire series.

Some of us don't have the energy or the time to read through this huge thread, so I'm sorry if I sound repetitive to you, I don't come here often, and when I do is mainly to practice my english, so, back to my numbers now...

I made my point, people in this thread ARE relentless, which is a good thing... :)
Ouch! forgive mine, Bunas Dias! Como estas? Me llama Corben Dallas y welcome to the love thread, ok I went Spanglish, again forgive it's been ages and my Brittish has been getting in the way of other dialects, meaning I'm develping a pseudo hybrid american/brittish vocabulary developing from reading a brittish epic, again hello LOTR, and discussing it with some follows and ladies from accross the Pond. (JordanL that's the Atlantic ;) )
Angua9 I get your point about the 2003 Couric interview, so according to the creator, there is more tension between Ron/Hermione than Harry/Hermione which seems to fly in the face of most of Harmony's theories about Order, ah but I forget, we shouldn't trust, accept face value or believe Jo, how silly of me...
CD

[The Leprechaun]

I'll leave you all with a JKR quote to think about and reason for why you shouldn't think that unspecified quotes don't mean the next book.

BBC Newsround

Fall 2000

Interview with J.K. Rowling, Transcript

Is this your idea of Hermione lightening up as you've said before. She didn't seem that light to me.

No, she will! She's a good girl. I agree with you - she's not that light in this book. But people made the mistake of assuming that my answers referred to Book Four. There are another three books to go. But in some ways - she's more of a rule breaker now. Where her convictions are concerned, she's prepared to do stuff that she's really not supposed to do. But she will lighten up. I promise you. I did.

Good night, Sayonara, and Buenos Noches.

[FlyingPhoenix]

I'm amazed that at hands of a PS Game which is about Horror we try to show that Harry Potter isn't about romance :wow:

No, I implied that the Couric interview statement all by itself was strong enough to outweigh all existing evidence supporting such a position. And I most certainly did not say "ship H/Hr;" I said "believe JKR will write H/Hr" -- there is an important distinction there.

In fact, if the Couric statement had been reversed, I would find it very difficult to believe that R/Hr will happen, despite the very large amount of evidence existing to support R/Hr. I am not capable of suspending my respect for Rowling's superior knowledge and authority to that extent.

I wonder why you would find it difficult to believe that R/Hr will happen, in case it were reversed? In my opinion its pretty clear what JKR said on this interview and it doesn't negate H/Hr. One day before OotP came out she had this interview, I'm sure you remember what happened those few days before the 21st, articles with informations about OotP came out (though ravensclaw and several other things were wrongly spelled so I didn't believe it) books were saled before 21st though it was strongly forbidden, at Portkey :lol: someone did even try and read that book in record time so to give all of us guys who have Saturday many, many hours later (says Europe and USA) some spoilers.
Amazon published a part of the audio book (welcome scene) against JKR's knowledge. Well, there went much, very much wrong if you consider we are talking about the biggest literature deal in year 2003 or even since GoF if not even more this says we are talking about millions of Euro. WB, several book publisher and other companies had their part in this all so if JKR speaks she don't speak just about her money but about a lot other people's money too.
Haveing this all as background info and reading or even listening to JKR in this interview lets think she isn't in the very best mood, now is she? I would be very angry if people break agreements just like that and spoil things from that book. That's why this Interview is in general something we can move without a problem to trash, why? Because JKR never said nor answered anything about things what will happen in OotP nor about futur books, all she did was giveing a theme and to say old news.

Her answer is pretty much speculation, one which wasn't even true for OotP there was no snogging between Ron and Hermione. It wasn't there just like this "tension" wasn't anymore so strong one did wait for a snogg session. It's just not their why should I because of that interview even consider H/Hr won't be that ship which JKR will wite?

[Ginevra Weasley]

But what would an ordinary person make of that answer, anyway? If I remember correctly, she volunteered the "Ron and Hermione have more tension" info entirely voluntarily, in response to a question that asked whether Harry and Hermione would be doing any snogging. The interviewer (Katie Couric, I think) wasn't even asking about general romance, or anything to do with Ron. Why's Jo shoving Ron and Hermione up our noses anyway, if she hasn't got plans for them?

Honestly speaking, I'm not a shipper. I like most pairings (except the ridiculous ones that have Draco/Hermione or Draco/Ginny) and I like the idea of Harry and Hermione as a couple (I was one of the first ones going "Oh, drat!!!" at the end of the second film), but I don't know how it's going to happen, if it does.

[crazy4harry23]

I'm a Heron and a Chocolate shipper, 'cause Ron and Hermione are always fighting so, don't people say that between love and hate is just one step, I belive that they will end up together, is the best for them

[FlyingPhoenix]

But what would an ordinary person make of that answer, anyway? If I remember correctly, she volunteered the "Ron and Hermione have more tension" info entirely voluntarily, in response to a question that asked whether Harry and Hermione would be doing any snogging. The interviewer (Katie Couric, I think) wasn't even asking about general romance, or anything to do with Ron. Why's Jo shoving Ron and Hermione up our noses anyway, if she hasn't got plans for them?

That's a good point and I agree with you that JKR brings R/Hr by her own accord up. But why? For this we may look how GoF was, don't we? This book was for everyone even for me as "die-hard" H/Hr supporter strong with R/Hr tension. Previous OotP most people in HP fandom expected R/Hr in OotP or at least a complimenting situation, a date or anything a like that. JKR knows that, she knows that GoF did give us as reader an expection for a R/Hr pairing may it last or not. Even in interviews after GoF she is asked about R/Hr and JKR hints that Ron likes Hermione more than a friend there. Asking now for any snogging between Harry and Hermione in OotP would have even surprised me because well this shows Katie Couric did probably only watch the movies (which got through this actress a very strong H/Hr vibe) because at hands of GoF I wouldn't expect H/Hr snogging in OotP but maybe R/Hr (and I'm a H/Hr shipper, please shoot me :huh: ).

So, yeah I would probably answer the same way if you had asked me that plain about romance in OotP. By the way this explains JKR's reaction, don't it? Its like: :huh: what are you talking about? Its a huh and not an ewww reaction by JKR.

There I think is why some H/Hr supporter believe R/Hr is a red-hering, I did probably say that this promise of R/Hr in GoF is a red-hering but for this to proof we need to wait for the last two books. JKR is useing exactly that with coming back on R/Hr in that interview. If you read this interview you see JKR don't say it will be R/Hr but its what she did expect (says at hands of GoF). This interview is a dodgy one simple because of two reasons: 1) There don't exist any snogging or even much tension between R/Hr in Ootp though JKR said that would be what she think. 2) Her wording isn't a certain statement like saying: It will happen. Its a speculation, a conclusion based on GoF yet not on her knowledge as author about OotP or even the last two books.

There is one serious reason why I don't ship R/Hr or not even think it will happen at any point in this serie its that its way to early in this books. You see haveing Ron's feelings already in CoS that much displayed not only in movie but in this books is the biggest reason why I won't ever believe, till I read it that is, that R/hr will be the OTP in this books. I'm myself someone who write's stories and I did read a few fantasie series, to this comes that most books like HP won't have the final romance spoiled before we even hit the first half of that story.
This is to me illogical alone out of comerce is it seriously foolish to promote a final pairing since 4 books till they get finally together or in case of movie's its even worst. Who is going to watch that? After we heard since 2002 that R/Hr are supposed to be just to see in years 2009 that it happens?

Romance is an important part of saleing a book or a movie if you spoil it people will show an amazing desintrest in the whole plot. Think about it the most succesfull movie is..you guess it a romance. People love to read it and to watch it, mind you thats why there exist so many shipper and even FanFics. It doesn't make sense to make R/Hr that clear and lose through this millions of Euros. That's why I do think H/Hr will actually happen because its starting later, because it will be a suprise yet you can see a building up for it in canon. Because it will finally happen in book7. Its the only way how someone can after book6 get book7 even more wanted.

From an economic view is H/Hr a pairing full of Gold where R/Hr is not. Ironic that its not :rotfl:

[Ginevra Weasley]

Honestly, FP, I don't think Jo ever wrote anything in her books with an eye on how palatable it was to the fans, and forgive me if I misunderstood you.

I don't know if Harmony will sail, but JKR's response to the question posed to her at Edinburgh about Harry's lovelife suggests that it may not do so in the sixth book, anyway. She said something like "What's life without a little romance?" when asked whether Harry would have another girlfriend, which seems to suggest that, whoever it is Harry's going to snog next, won't be a very serious attachment; it's probably going to be someone not that important to Harry, or she wouldn't have said it like that. And I don't ever see Hermione as just "someone to snog" for Harry. If something does happen there, it's going to be fairly serious- definitely not to be taken lightly.

Which is why I don't see Hermione and Harry getting together in HBP. Sorry, I'd love it if they did (though I honestly don't know how they'd handle Ron in that event, and the Trio's friendship is much more important to me than any romances), but that's just the way it looks, for now.

[Oumou]

I don't think that it would make sense if Ron and Hermione got together. What would Harry do. If ANY of you remember she gives a kiss on the cheek to both Ron and Harry but Harry receives one first. In the 3rd movie (special features) JKR says that Alfonso forshadowed alot and that should give a clue to us so obviously something happened between the 3 that I missed. I watched it again and I noticed that Harry and Hermione held hands for most of the end of the movie while Ron was in the Hospital Wing. Also when she grabs Ron's hand during Hagrid's class she does it because she was frightened for HARRY getting hurt by Buckbeak. When I saw Harry and Hermione hold hands there was no hesitations, they found each other for physical support and remained there. This is Harry's story so he should get Hermione. What would you feel if you have suffered so much and your 2 friends were dating? Just because they don't fight as often as HR/R do doesn't mean, Oh they are fighting so they love each other, that doesn't happen in our world so why would it happen in the wizarding world.

[mrs_bombadil]

someone did even try and read that book in record time so to give all of us guys who have Saturday many, many hours later (says Europe and USA) some spoilers.

I thought midnight happened in Europe earlier than it did in the states?---oops, sorry...I misunderstood; you mean Australia and NZ readers? OK, I understand now.

Also, were you trying to suggest that JKR's responses in the interview have any relation to the pre-release leaks? Because the interview was not taped that day it simply aired that day.

[Oro]

I totaly agree, FP... Clap, clap, clap.