Who will fall in love with whom? v40

[mrs_bombadil]

Thank God. (I wasn't too sure by the links in your sig).

This is still sounding vaguely insulting.

I'm aware of that, however I felt rather strongly when I was first reading the FAQ where she addresses the issue that it was stinking slightly of her distinct sense of humor and I interpretted it as a sarcastic sort of mocking.

I don't happen to think a woman who has on more than one occasion acknowledged that her fanbase of kids is astounding (and has even shown a preference for them) would treat them this way. The quotes are a big part of what I argue, but by no means all. It's been a recent focus for various reasons. And, I don't just focus on the shippy ones...I use the rest to back up the conclusions I draw about them. Just like the books, I check it all out to see what, if anything, they can tell. I don't think the lady is in a habit of spending her valuable time trying to generate words that are useless; I think most of what comes out of her mouth is intended to either provide clues, give additional interesting detail, accomodate fans, etc.

I am not just a fan of the books but a fan of her too.

And I agree with your assessment of her quality as a writer...therefore the "I don't see how such-and-such could be pulled off" is not really a very good argument in my opinion. She surprises me every book. And, I have gone on record more than once saying that if harmony is what she writes then I believe she'll somehow be able to make me think it was best or necessary.

Looking - give me a minute. :)

ETA: Can't find it. :( Mrs. Bombadil had a link in her signature when she first posted it - maybe she'll know where it is.

Sorry, I wasn't around last night:

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1550085&postcount=560

[Fury]

I don't think that it would make sense if Ron and Hermione got together. What would Harry do.

Why, fall in love with Ginny! That is what!

Or Luna...

The trio would still be friends... they would help each other either way.

[Ginevra Weasley]

It's absurd to use the "Hero gets the girl" logic with these stories. There's absolutely no way to tell how things are going to go in the romance department, and I know JKR cautioned us against making too many Star Wars parallels, but it's a fine example of a story where the hero didn't get the girl and it was still brilliant.
As per JKR, Hermione can't be Harry's sister, but she's one of his best friends, which is, IMO, just as important. And no matter what happens, who falls in love with whom, the most important thing is that the three of them should remain friends. JKR herself has said that the Trio are strongest when they're together, which is why I don't like the idea of a situation where they end up estranged, even for a little while. And just because Harry can't fall in love with Ron, that doesn't make him any less important to the story than Hermione. I wish some people would see that.

[Moonstruck]

It's absurd to use the "Hero gets the girl" logic with these stories. There's absolutely no way to tell how things are going to go in the romance department, and I know JKR cautioned us against making too many Star Wars parallels, but it's a fine example of a story where the hero didn't get the girl and it was still brilliant.

Sorry, but the hero did get the girl in SW. Han was a hero just as much as Luke was.

[Fury]

Sorry, but the hero did get the girl in SW. Han was a hero just as much as Luke was.

That goes the same way with Ron. He is as much of a hero as Harry is... he just doesn't act like it sometimes...

[Moonstruck]

That goes the same way with Ron. He is as much of a hero as Harry is... he just doesn't act like it sometimes...

That kind of goes against what I hear most of the time here. "Ron and Hermione are sidekicks"

[Corbin Dallas]

Sorry, but the hero did get the girl in SW. Han was a hero just as much as Luke was.
Luke was the true threat to the Emporer, a force user and the son of Skywalker, which happens to be the focus of the series, Han was a hero but a sidekick too, like Samwise Gamgee, sidekick but a hero...
CD

[Fury]

That kind of goes against what I hear most of the time here. "Ron and Hermione are sidekicks"

Yes, they are sidekicks.. but if you think about Robin... he was Batman's sidekick and he did a lot of work. It is not bad being a sidekick. Helping your best friend in their time of need...

ETA: They are heroes in their own way... Ron does have his skills... he uses them wisely. Hermione, of course, is the brains of the bunch. She knows a lot more then Harry. He has to get help from her. He wouldn't be alive if it wasn't for either of these two.

[voldemort666]

That kind of goes against what I hear most of the time here. "Ron and Hermione are sidekicks"

Well said Moonstruck.

Whenever we Harmonians say Hermione is imortant than Ron, the Herons will come up with sidekicks story. When we say Ron is not important to the story, they will equate Ron with Harry. Funny :/

[mrs_bombadil]

You can be a hero but not the hero (which is the protagonist) in a story.

Harry is the protagonist and in the Voldemort plot the main hero.

You can be a hero and a sidekick.

From a structural perspective, Harry is the protagonist and Ron and Hermione are sidekicks.

"Hero gets the girl"...if Harry is to get a girl, "the" girl is no more and no less than who he decides he wants (or JKR decides for him, rather).

[connielane]

Haveing this all as background info and reading or even listening to JKR in this interview lets think she isn't in the very best mood, now is she? I would be very angry if people break agreements just like that and spoil things from that book. That's why this Interview is in general something we can move without a problem to trash, why? Because JKR never said nor answered anything about things what will happen in OotP nor about futur books, all she did was giveing a theme and to say old news.All of the hubbub with the pre-release spoilers could not have been "background" for JKR's comments to Katie Couric, because while the interview aired the night before the release, it was taped much earlier, possibly as much as a month or so, at least. So I don't buy your notion that JKR was angry and trying to keep things from people. She did manage to reveal that "certain adolescent rites of passage" would happen to Harry, a phrase which most people would associate with Harry having his first romance, especially if they had heard the Paxman interview a couple of weeks before.Her answer is pretty much speculation, one which wasn't even true for OotP there was no snogging between Ron and Hermione.*sigh* She didn't say that they would snog, so the fact that it didn't happen is irrelevant to whether her comments are true for OotP. And I find "speculation" a really unusual word for an author's comments about her own book. Shouldn't she know what happens already?It wasn't there just like this "tension" wasn't anymore so strong one did wait for a snogg session.That is your opinion only, and I daresay most readers who heard that quote - with the exception of those who are desperate to believe otherwise - would disagree.It's just not their why should I because of that interview even consider H/Hr won't be that ship which JKR will wite?Nobody is saying you shouldn't. We're just amazed that you still can believe it. I'm with Angua - if the quote had gone the other way, and JKR had made that face and said "Ron and Hermione, do you think so? Harry and Hermione, I would say..." - I would very seriously reconsider my previous opinions on the matter of shipping in the books, despite what I consider to be overwhelming textual evidence for my previous opinion. JKR's knowledge of what she is writing far outweighs my own personal preferences.

[Moonstruck]

Luke was the true threat to the Emporer, a force user and the son of Skywalker, which happens to be the focus of the series, Han was a hero but a sidekick too, like Samwise Gamgee, sidekick but a hero...
CD

Han was never designed as a sidekick. He was designed as a foil to Luke.

George Lucas: "I was looking for a 'foil' for Luke. Luke is the young, idealistic naive, clearn kid about to be initiated into the riges of manhood. So to make that really work, I needed something to contrast him against. Obviously, Ben is the wise teacher; he is really good and conservative, but there was no fun in that. Julst like I had Vader to contrast with Ben, I created Solo as a cynical world-weary pessimist to play opposite Luke."

The Annotated Screenplays, page 46

Wikipedia has Han Solo under their anti-hero entry.

There is also a type of anti-hero who starts the story with a few unlikeable traits such as prejudices, self centeredness, immaturity, cockiness, or a single minded focus on things such as wealth, status, or revenge. Thus, the hero may actually begin the story as a not so likeable character. However, through the course of events, as we get to know the character, they grow and change and may actually become popular. A well known example of this is Han Solo of the Star Wars trilogy.

Anti-Hero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-hero)

Han had an hero's journey in SW, but it was different from Luke's. Luke was the hero in the beginning who had the powers and whose sole purpose was to defeat the main bad guys (aka Palpatine and Vader), Han was the anti-hero who had no powers who cared less about what happened, found himself dragged into the whole thing and ends up beating the bad guys (aka the Empire) anyway.

Han's story follows very closely to the anti-hero mold. He does not fit the sidekick mold at all.

[Ginevra Weasley]

Good point, Corb.

Just because Harry is the focus of the story doesn't mean that others aren't brave in their own ways. And Han was just as brave as Luke, in the end: it's just that this, being Luke's story, didn't have as much of a role for Han as it did for Luke.

If you had to draw parallels between Star Wars and Harry Potter before the ship debates began, Moonstruck, I seriously doubt you'd have said Han Solo was a parallel- the most likely parallel- to Harry Potter.

[Fury]

You people are thinking that Katie Couric was aiming her questions toward the Order of the Phoenix book. I don't think the "Ron/Hermione tension" part was aimed toward OoTP.. i think it was aimed for the last three books. Meaning.. OoTP, HBP and Book 7.

[Moonstruck]

Good point, Corb.

Just because Harry is the focus of the story doesn't mean that others aren't brave in their own ways. And Han was just as brave as Luke, in the end: it's just that this, being Luke's story, didn't have as much of a role for Han as it did for Luke.

If you had to draw parallels between Star Wars and Harry Potter before the ship debates began, Moonstruck, I seriously doubt you'd have said Han Solo was a parallel- the most likely parallel- to Harry Potter.

I'm not drawing any parallels between SW and HP. As far as I'm concerned, SW and HP should not be compared execpt in the most basic of formats. Han Solo does not fit any character in HP that I know of. I am pointing out that SW does follow the pattarn of the hero gets the girl (or anti-hero gets the girl as Han became an offical hero in Jedi or the girl gets the boy as Lucas said in the Annotated Screenplay).

[Corbin Dallas]

Han was never designed as a sidekick. He was designed as a foil to Luke.

George Lucas: "I was looking for a 'foil' for Luke. Luke is the young, idealistic naive, clearn kid about to be initiated into the riges of manhood. So to make that really work, I needed something to contrast him against. Obviously, Ben is the wise teacher; he is really good and conservative, but there was no fun in that. Julst like I had Vader to contrast with Ben, I created Solo as a cynical world-weary pessimist to play opposite Luke."

The Annotated Screenplays, page 46

Wikipedia has Han Solo under their anti-hero entry.

There is also a type of anti-hero who starts the story with a few unlikeable traits such as prejudices, self centeredness, immaturity, cockiness, or a single minded focus on things such as wealth, status, or revenge. Thus, the hero may actually begin the story as a not so likeable character. However, through the course of events, as we get to know the character, they grow and change and may actually become popular. A well known example of this is Han Solo of the Star Wars trilogy.

Anti-Hero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-hero)

Han had an hero's journey in SW, but it was different from Luke's. Luke was the hero in the beginning who had the powers and whose sole purpose was to defeat the main bad guys (aka Palpatine and Vader), Han was the anti-hero who had no powers who cared less about what happened, found himself dragged into the whole thing and ends up beating the bad guys (aka the Empire) anyway.

Han's story follows very closely to the anti-hero mold. He does not fit the sidekick mold at all.
But Samwise Gamgee does to a tee, Han as the anit-hero, I can see it, kind of like my siggy, he didn't really want to get involved, it was the Red-Head that got him motivated ;) ...
CD

[enid]

You people are thinking that Katie Couric was aiming her questions toward the Order of the Phoenix book. I don't think the "Ron/Hermione tension" part was aimed toward OoTP.. i think it was aimed for the last three books. Meaning.. OoTP, HBP and Book 7.

Is Katie Couric an avid HP reader? I don't think so. I think the very fact she asked about Harry and Hermione shows her lack of knowledge about the books. It was an over generalization on her part because Harry and Hermione are the two main characters. It appears to me JKR corrected her on it. For further proof, look at the overall superficiality of the interview...it was very surface. You think Katie Couric was putting HER PENETRATING MIND :rolleyes: to the task of figuring out the great love debate. I think it likely was just sliping in her own bias as to who she wants to see with Harry...as Bias is her thing.

[Krumpet]

You can be a hero but not the hero (which is the protagonist) in a story.

Harry is the protagonist and in the Voldemort plot the main hero.

You can be a hero and a sidekick.

From a structural perspective, Harry is the protagonist and Ron and Hermione are sidekicks.

"Hero gets the girl"...if Harry is to get a girl, "the" girl is no more and no less than who he decides he wants (or JKR decides for him, rather).

I agree wholeheartedly, and I think that is forgotten a lot here. Ron is a hero. He has risked his life, and well being to save his is friends, and family. Hermione is a heroine because she has also risk it all to save someone other then herself. However both Ron and Hermione are also sidekicks, so neither of them is THE hero or heroine. Harry is a hero, however he is also the hero of the story.

[Darynthe]

To clarify my arguments regarding the honesty/believability issue... I have not stated that I would feel betrayed if harmony sails, because of being mislead by quotes (I'm not concerned if others have for this particular discussion); I have not said I would think ill of JKR if the quotes turn out to be falsehoods (again, right now, not concerned if others have said this).

My position has to do with the fact that our esteemed author seems to value her integrity greatly (several of us have given many examples of this); she has expressed that she can and should be believed; and she has expressed concern over the effect on fans who might be under false impressions.

I believe that a vast set of quotes pointing one direction when another is the truth, is against her sense of integrity.

Lying isn't a big moral issue? Well, that's not what I try to teach my kids.

Lying not penalized by any law in any country? perjury, plagiarism, libel, truth in advertising, just off the top of my head...


Duh, I sincerely hope nobody goes and sues her if things don't go the way they thought JKR implied in interviews!!!!! :lol:

My point is not that lying is morally correct, just that in this particular case is of very practical importance, especially that if it's done,then it's done in a covertly way, dodging questions with half truths that could hardly be called lies. And done to protect her intellectual work, her sales, people's wish not to be spoilt...etc. That is IF she's misleading us.

I could hardly think it affects her moral integrity if she does. She's not hurting anybody. I guess here we are of different opinions, I just don't take at heart the interviews. I would rather resent if JKR went and told out the plot in the interviews cause that would ruin the books!

Plus, of course you're right that there are instances of something *like* lying to be penalized, but things like plagiarism is rather stealing. Perjury is something done in a criminal investigation and under oath. Libel? She's only talking about her own fictional characters.

Would it be penalized if your husband told you to go to a place to pick the laundry and once there you found out all your friends threw a surprise party for you? This is an example I can make of how weird it would be if lies were penalized. To be so, they will be classified as criminal offense, and need to have criminal intent, for what little I remember of my law class years ago.

[mrs_bombadil]

My point is not that lying is morally correct, just that in this particular case is of very practical importance, especially that if it's done,then it's done in a covertly way, dodging questions with half truths that could hardly be called lies. And done to protect her intellectual work, her sales, people's wish not to be spoilt...etc. That is IF she's misleading us.

I think sales would have very little to do with it. Misleading is form of dishonesty. She has expressed over and over, in many ways, a desire to be fundamentally "honest". She employs other methods when she doesn't want to provide too much information. As my last post indicated, I don't think she would need to resort to misleading to throw people off track. In addition to the point I made about not thinking she would, she doesn't need to; she's too clever! If she didn't want to reveal info, then why has she chosen those questions on so many occasions? Is she lying when she says we should know?

I could hardly think it affects her moral integrity if she does. She's not hurting anybody. I guess here we are of different opinions, I just don't take at heart the interviews. I would rather resent if JKR went and told out the plot in the interviews cause that would ruin the books!

You may not be hurt...it doesn't mean others wouldn't. And, I'm thinking mostly of kids here not overzealous herons.

Plus, of course you're right that there are instances of something *like* lying to be penalized, but things like plagiarism is rather stealing. Perjury is something done in a criminal investigation and under oath. Libel? She's only talking about her own fictional characters.

My point was that there are many forms of lying that are indeed illegal. There may be forms that are not, true but you said it wasn't illegal anywhere and that's not true.

Would it be penalized if your husband told you to go to a place to pick the laundry and once there you found out all your friends threw a surprise party for you? This is an example I can make of how weird it would be if lies were penalized. To be so, they will be classified as criminal offense, and need to have criminal intent, for what little I remember of my law class years ago.

No, but if he lied and mislead prior to marriage and I later found out about it I could get an annulment. If he pathalogically lied as part of emotional abuse I could get a divorce. There are lots of laws where lying is a factor.

But, I'm not saying JK misleading with quotes would be unlawful lying. You brought legality into it not me and it's probably lead us off topic.

I just happen to think there is a lot more backup and logic to support her NOT being dishonest than there is to suggest she would be or is misleading.

[Clothes]

Wow sounds like people are taking this stuff very personally. Let's remember we are dealing with a fictional story about ficitonal characters. Also, as the author, she (JK) has the right and ability to tweak and change her mind or plan about something at any given time as it is her story. Also, in her books and interviews, she has been purposely vague and hasn't used any absolutes, like Ron and Hermione WILL get together, Harry and Hermione WILL NEVER get together.
Personally, I think it won't be Ron And Hermi, but Harry and Hermi when all is said and done.

[Moonstruck]

But Samwise Gamgee does to a tee, Han as the anit-hero, I can see it, kind of like my siggy, he didn't really want to get involved, it was the Red-Head that got him motivated ;) ...
CD

I'm not going to argue with Sam. From what I've read/watched of LOTR (first two books/movies), he does fit the role of sidekick. You want to argue that? Go ahead. I don't know enough to argue back on that point.

Just don't say SW is not a 'hero gets the girl' story, because it is...it's just that the hero you're thinking is not the hero who gets the girl. ;)

[Romania Black]

Hey hey!


Here's How I think things will fall out by the end of the book!


Harry And Luna: it's just meant to be! They have so Much in common!

Ron and Hermoine: Just watch POA...you'll see...

Neville and Ginny: Read the Luna Lovegood chapter in OoTP

Romania BLack

[Darynthe]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Krumpet
I feel for any Harmony that posts here, because they are in the minority and often have about five posts to respond to, to every one that a Heron has. Lets cut them a little bit of slack.

Let's keep persecuting them so that their courage through it all, even their eventual demise, is something beautiful, just like everything else that happens here.



What! :rotfl: I will start calling you Neron. It's much meaningful than Heron and more appropiate. You talk exactly as Neron must have when he was persecuting Christians. What does it say about your ship?

[Krumpet]

Hey hey!


Here's How I think things will fall out by the end of the book!


Harry And Luna: it's just meant to be! They have so Much in common!

Ron and Hermoine: Just watch POA...you'll see...

Neville and Ginny: Read the Luna Lovegood chapter in OoTP

Romania BLack

:welcome: to the Heron (the Hermione/ Ron relationship)

I'm sure the Moonlight (Luna/Harry ship) will extend it's welcome wagon here soon.

Personally I'm a Chocolate (Ginny/ Harry) but you are still more then welcome to your own opinion. Ginny tells Neville he isn't a nobody true, but I think what was more important about that scene was that Neville was introduced to Luna (I would love to see those to misfits find a place they fit together) :D

[drdementor]

What! I will start calling you Neron. It's much meaningful than Heron and more appropiate. You talk exactly as Neron must have when he was persecuting Christians. What does it say about your ship?

This summer there were way more Harmonians on the board, and they were saying the Herons had all but disappeared. I imagine for many of them, it's finals week, and they might possibly have some more important things on their minds than who ends up with whom in the Harry Potter series!

That said, I think the emperor's name was Nero, not Neron. But you can call me that if you like, as there is also a great detective named Nero Wolfe (invented by Rex Stout), and by so calling me you would indicate my genius (and that of other Herons) in unraveling the Harry Potter mysteries ;)

The mighty Roman Galley Heron is rowed by liberated House Elves and Grawp beats the rhythm with uprooted tree trunks.

[JordanL]

These analogies to Star Wars are very abstracted... I'm not sure I would compare the two too directly. There are some common literrary tools that are applied however, (among these being character functions). The SW stories aren't really about Luke though in the same way the HP series is about Harry, which is the main difference, and cause of discrepencies between the two.

[Polychrome]

It's absurd to use the "Hero gets the girl" logic with these stories. There's absolutely no way to tell how things are going to go in the romance department, and I know JKR cautioned us against making too many Star Wars parallels, but it's a fine example of a story where the hero didn't get the girl and it was still brilliant.


Luke got his own girl later on. ;)

I think one of the reasons we occasionally get "It's not Star Wars" quotes is simply because JKR herself is aware of the similarities. She just doesn't want people attempting to prove that they're the same thing down to the last detail. (Such as, oh, have people try to make Crookshanks into Chewbacca or something.)

She also doesn't want people to be dissappointed with the lack of prequels.

[Darynthe]

That said, I think the emperor's name was Nero, not Neron. But you can call me that if you like, as there is also a great detective named Nero Wolfe (invented by Rex Stout), and by so calling me you would indicate my genius (and that of other Herons) in unraveling the Harry Potter mysteries ;)


I have a few books by Rex Stout but I didn't like them much. Prefer old Agatha Christie :)

I know the name in English and Italian is Nero, but in Spanish and French is Neron. :) I am a little familiar beacause I am a huge fan of Quo Vadis? and Petronius.

[Melcb98]

Moonstruck- the one problem with your analysis of Han as Hero, Ron as sidekick.
And:
Han had an hero's journey in SW, but it was different from Luke's.

The huge problem is the the Harry Potter books are not over. There are two more, and there is stuff going on with Ron that we do not know about, yet. Ron is already trying to come into his own.
Therefore, after this is all over and done with, we can probably say:
Ron had a hero's journey in HP, but it was different from Harry's.

Oh, and its my opinion that Han/Leia do give Luke what Ron/Hermione give to Harry. Obviously, personalities, storylines, and other circumstances change the direct corrilation, but in general- they are there to help to main hero. Ron can be parellelled to Han, very easily. Just as Hermione can be to Leia.

[drdementor]

First, I just want to say that I know it's useful to use Star Wars just to show that the main hero or main character need not get the girl, and that the 'sidekick' or whatever Han is, can have a romantic relationship and not ruin his role as supporter. That's all well and good, since all you need to shoot a hole in any theory that's posed (If A and B have a romance --> C will be sad and destroyed) is to show a scenario in which A and B do have a romance and C is not destroyed. Also "The Hero must get the girl; it is his story, after all" only needs one example of the opposite being the case to demonstrate the weakness of this particular argument. There can be great, nuanced arguments against the possibility of Ron and Hermione getting together because that would negatively affect the story; the problem is when people over-generalise and suggest that such an outcome is impossible by the very nature of these fantasy books.

That said, I think that Harry Potter and Star Wars have very little in common, comparatively. For instance, I can group many fantasy series together, but Harry Potter and Star Wars each broke the mold. Star Wars is not all that much like the space movies that preceded it, and Harry Potter is a bestseller because it is very much unlike most other children's books, children's fantasies, and fantasies in general. I think that yes, they do have several basic fantasy/sf elements in common, but that on the whole they are really very different tales. I can't even really think of any characters that compare well between the two stories involving the MAIN characters (Harry, Hermione, Ron, Voldemort, and Luke, Leia, Han, Chewy, the Droids, Vader, Palpatine). And I think that Voldy and Palpy are about as different as two villains can get and still be powerhungry, magical male sociopaths, just in case some of you are shocked that I said that.

I think that character-wise, you can find more similarity between the HP characters and the characters of Lloyd Alexander's 'Prydain' Chronicles, but the plots (once you get past 'generic fantasy heroism') are way different, mainly because each of the Prydain books has its own weird setting and events, and the Harry Potter books have a very structured timeline. I think, for instance, that Snape and Prince Ellidyr from 'The Black Cauldron' are very much alike, but I hope Snape has a happier fate.

Then, there's Lord of the Rings. Would people even be talking about this so much if LotR and HP movies hadn't been made at the same time? I think not. Yeah, there are plenty of parallels you can make between the two, but all the ones I've read have just been superficial 'generic fantasy epic' talking points. There are loads of series out there that follow the stuff LotR made famous, mainly the band of friends,often composed of Men, Elves, and Dwarves going on a quest of some sort. Those ones have lots of similarities to LotR, not because the authors have plagiarised, but because the characters need to have certain elements in common in order for the stories to be exciting and for their motivations to make sense.

I think if we want to use other books to make predictions about the HP characters, we need to step WAY outside the LotR/StarWars box! It is possible, I think, because certain characters with certain motivations in HP have close matches throughout the genre of fantasy and just general science fiction, but let's at least try for a little variety!

I actually think the series has a whole lot more in common with the 'Wrinkle in Time' series, particularly the first and second books, as the importance of 'love' for both family, friends, and apparent enemies is crucial, and because the characters are also believable children and teens. Meg Murray has a great deal in common with Hermione (brains and insecurity). Mr Jenkins could quite easily be a more benevolent Snape (before we knew Snape used to be a Death Eater). They don't tell us a lot about 'romances' because Meg basically falls for the only male character her age.

[Moonstruck]

Moonstruck- the one problem with your analysis of Han as Hero, Ron as sidekick.
And:


The huge problem is the the Harry Potter books are not over. Their are two more, and there is stuff going on with Ron that we do not know about, yet.
Therefore, after this is all over and done with, we can probably say:
Ron had a hero's journey in HP, but it was different from Harry's.

But you can't say that Han=Ron just by that because the roles of those two are extremely different. Show me a moment where Han becomes the sidekick of Luke?

I completely agree on the SW parts, drdementor. Everything else, I have no clue about. :p

[Melcb98]

But you can't say that Han=Ron just by that because the roles of those two are extremely different. Show me a moment where Han becomes the sidekick of Luke?

How about the whole first movie?? Yeap, thats quite a few moments.

The difference is- one that chances the whole perceptive on it, is that Harry is the main focus. We only go where he goes, only see what he sees, only are told what is important to him. Remember that the case is very different in the Star Wars movies. These movies cannot be directly, word for word, instance by instance parralleled.

Besides- I already stated that HP is not over, and you cannot tellme what will happen to Ron. His "journey" has not ended or stopped.

[JordanL]

How about the whole first movie?? Yeap, thats quite a few moments.

Now, who was it that got indignant with me when I said that people seem to confuse movies with cannon?

[Melcb98]

Now, who was it that got indignant with me when I said that people seem to confuse movies with cannon?
We are talking about the Star Wars movies in comparrison to the Harry Potter Books. The movie I was refering to was Star Wars.

[JordanL]

We are talking about the Star Wars movies in comparrison to the Harry Potter Books. The movie I was refering to was Star Wars.

My mistake.

[Moonstruck]

How about the whole first movie?? Yeap, thats quite a few moments.

The difference is- one that chances the whole perceptive on it, is that Harry is the main focus. We only go where he goes, only see what he sees, only are told what is important to him. Remember that the case is very different in the Star Wars movies. These movies cannot be directly, word for word, instance by instance parralleled.

Besides- I already stated that HP is not over, and you cannot tellme what will happen to Ron. His "journey" has not ended or stopped.

Examples, please? I can tell you now, that Han was not a sidekick in the first movie. Everything he did in A New Hope was part of his anti-hero role.

[AmmoniaAlert]

Examples, please? I can tell you now, that Han was not a sidekick in the first movie. Everything he did in A New Hope was part of his anti-hero role.

I don't think this is going to help our discussion much.

Finding out if Han is a hero or a side kick or both doesn't have any influence on who will be together with whom in HP.

[Melcb98]

Examples, please? I can tell you now, that Han was not a sidekick in the first movie. Everything he did in A New Hope was part of his anti-hero role.
Before I get into it- can you tell me what this has to do with shipping, since we are on a Harry Potter love thread? Because, off topic conversations like this that can go on for pages and pages are not really appropriate.
And, did you read everything else I had said?

[JordanL]

You know, I feel much more compassion for Harmonians. They take such a beating from so many people so often.... ;)

[Moonstruck]

Before I get into it- can you tell me what this has to do with shippy, since we are on a Harry Potter love thread? Because, off topic conversations like this that can go on for pages and pages are not really appropriate.
And, did you read everything else I had said?

Someone said SW is not about the hero getting the girl, saying that Han was a sidekick. I said it was (providing examples of Han not being a sidekick).

Can you prove that Han is a sidekick which shows that SW is not a hero getting the girl story?

Yes, I did, but that does not mean that Han is a sidekick in the ANH.

[mrs_bombadil]

You know, I feel much more compassion for Harmonians. They take such a beating from so many people so often.... ;)

Believe me...it goes both ways.

[JordanL]

Believe me...it goes both ways.

Really? I'd think the sheer quantity of Heron's would prevent such a thing from happenning.

[FlyingPhoenix]

All of the hubbub with the pre-release spoilers could not have been "background" for JKR's comments to Katie Couric, because while the interview aired the night before the release, it was taped much earlier, possibly as much as a month or so, at least.
Connielane, I seriously don't want doubt your words but do you have something what back this up? Because that what I read on TLC is disagreeing with you.

So I don't buy your notion that JKR was angry and trying to keep things from people. She did manage to reveal that "certain adolescent rites of passage" would happen to Harry, a phrase which most people would associate with Harry having his first romance, especially if they had heard the Paxman interview a couple of weeks before.

I guess you mean this Interview (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0619-bbcnews-paxman.htm) ?
It would probably help if you quote this part, I'm sorry I don't remember every Interview.

*sigh* She didn't say that they would snog, so the fact that it didn't happen is irrelevant to whether her comments are true for OotP. And I find "speculation" a really unusual word for an author's comments about her own book. Shouldn't she know what happens already?

Priceless, you just point out what I'm saying.
I find it unusually worded to say: Ron and Hermione, I would say. Why would she say that if she knows they become a couple anyway? Except they won't become one.
“Any snogging with Hermione?” This is a question refered to OotP now tell me at what based should JKR answer? At those events in book6? Or book7? You see this illogic there, don't you? JKR even as author cannot answer this answer with her knowledge what will happen to them in book6 or 7 because the very question is based on book4. Lets try if I can make it clear.
Couric ask if in book5 is any snogging with Hermione, JKR knows in OotP is no snogging with Hermione at all. But she knows in book6 or 7 is some snogging however thats not the question, which is based on what we know about book1 till 4. There don't exist a romantic interest from Harry in Hermione, so there would be no snogging. But Ron got interest in Hermione, so yes that we would think is rather possible yet this don't happens. Does that mean H/Hr is unlikely? Err sorry but this wasn't the question because Harry can have now this kind of interest in Hermione or she in him or its starts in book6 to become this interest, but what we know JKR didn't negate it.

With view at this interview after we all read book5 is it pretty useless because JKR's answer was based on GoF and at this question what was too based on GoF. Its useless after OotP, its waste, trash. I'm suprised that you use that interview as argument anyway. Its just no more use for your ship just like the good old Platonic quote.

That is your opinion only, and I daresay most readers who heard that quote - with the exception of those who are desperate to believe otherwise - would disagree.

You must think I'm quite naive to use my common sense on that one then. For your info I'm not desperate, I would indeed agree with you if that Interview did hold any water but mind you I rather use a sense of logic as to think wrongly that this interview negate's H/Hr as pairing. Like I said before this answer is a answer to a question which was based on GoF. Seriously if I knew the future and you asked me if H/Hr happens in HBP (lets pretend you do) do you seriously think if I knew it happens in book7 I say yes it will happen in HBP though it won't? That were a lie, I would lie to you. Mind you alone for the fun I did it probably, but thats me :evil: .

Nobody is saying you shouldn't. We're just amazed that you still can believe it.

I'm amazed that you use an interview for this conclusion which is anyway very useless now and was it even then.

I would very seriously reconsider my previous opinions on the matter of shipping in the books, despite what I consider to be overwhelming textual evidence for my previous opinion. JKR's knowledge of what she is writing far outweighs my own personal preferences.

Before I answer just let me say this isn't meant to offending you, its just how I would think in that situation. If I did consider this interview as proof that my conclusion to think JKR will write H/Hr in book6 is at fault I did probaberly seriously consider if I'm able to understand an interview in context or not, if I'm able to understand text and grammar and if I was ever able previous that interview to understand this books at all.

[mrs_bombadil]

Really? I'd think the sheer quantity of Heron's would prevent such a thing from happenning.

But the balance of how many of each are on the board at the time as well as the skill and style of the those present have more to do with how the debate proceeds at any given time.

[drdementor]

Examples, please? I can tell you now, that Han was not a sidekick in the first movie. Everything he did in A New Hope was part of his anti-hero role.

If you watch only the first movie and don't know the end of the series, Han does come off as a sidekick. A snarky,surly, 'anti-hero' sidekick, but a sidekick nonetheless.

We see Han first when Luke and Ben recruit him for the use of his ship.

Luke is the one who gets Leia out of her cell. Luke is the one who swings her across the pit. Ben (aka Obiwan) is the one who stalls Vader by fighting him. Han is the goofball shooting his mouth off, being rude to Leia, and blasting everything in sight, basically causing more problems than he solves. R2D2 is more helpful than Han is in the Death Star rescue mission.

The first time we ever can see Han as any sort of anti-hero is in the final battle which is the first time we get to see him in action without Luke or Ben present. He's a good fighter in the battle, (and so is Wedge, I might add), but it is Luke's force-guided shot that gives the Death Star the final blow and saves the day.

Han and Chewy get medals with Luke at the end, but Luke is clearly the hero of 'A New Hope.' Not Han.

Han gets to shine in 'The Empire Strikes Back' and 'Return of the Jedi' because he and Luke aren't really around each other all that much. That means that in the 'Han, Chewy and Leia scenes', Han is definitely the hero while Leia is the heroine. Luke is off learning from Yoda, dealing with Vader, etc. Here, we could cut Luke out and Han would still be doing great. I would argue that Han is definitely the anti-hero and NOT a sidekick in the final two movies, but he is in 'A New Hope' because he is always around Luke.

AND THUS: to tie this back to shipping,

Han, when he is a mere sidekick, comes nowhere close to getting the girl, but does express an interest in doing so:

'Ya think a princess and a guy like me...?'

When Han is a hero, around Leia alone all the time, he does get the girl. Even before Leia learns Luke's her brother and therefore not eligible, she declares her love to Han (as he's about to be frozen).

FOR HP: If it's following a Star Wars parallel (which it isn't), then we could say that Ron needs to have some heroic moments around Hermione without Harry in order to clinch the deal. He will stop being a heroic sidekick and be a true hero in his own right (though Harry's story will still be more important literarily, just as Luke's story was more important to the film).

OR, the books are not following a Star Wars parallel and Ron will remain an excellent, heroic sidekick. In that case, Herons need to propose another example of a DEFINITE sidekick getting the girl. I propose the characters of 'The Dark is Rising' series by Susan Cooper. I think it's pretty clear that Will's the hero, Bran is the sidekick (one of many) and Jane is the heroine. Jane and Bran get together. I use this as an example to contradict the generalization that the hero gets the girl, NOT as an example to make the equally false generalization that the sidekick must always get the girl.

[AmmoniaAlert]

You know, I feel much more compassion for Harmonians. They take such a beating from so many people so often.... ;)

This reminds me of Ron ;)

I've always liked his character very much, but didn't think he needed defending until I joined the fandom.

[JordanL]

But the balance of how many of each are on the board at the time as well as the skill and style of the those present have more to do with how the debate proceeds at any given time.

I see. I haven't been around long enough to notice that, although the same happens on another board I'm on, (a politics one). On it, with some 35,000 members, there are FAR more liberals, but the people who have a lot of wit, posts, time, energy, knowledge and facts are disproportionately conservative, and one of them can usually take on an entire thread of opposition.

I'd like to think that I could be a pain to both sides of this arguement, but there haven't been a whole lot of Harmonians posting things to contest, (though this star wars thing is sorta weird).

[Corbin Dallas]

Really? I'd think the sheer quantity of Heron's would prevent such a thing from happenning.
You'd be surprised, most of the Hermione/Ron shippers would rather debate the canon which many include Jo's spoken word as much as her written word. Still when this happens we get these usual situations
Jo is misleading
No your interpretation is wrong
No you delibertly misinterpretating the canon
You wrote alot and said nothing
blah blah blah,
personally I don't think it warrants a response when personal attacks happen, Angua9, Daveydee, mrs bombadil, KADH, Krumpet, Icekatt55, Polychrome, xray, Melcb98, McBeth and others (sorry if I didn't mention you ;) ) o their best to point out the canon and debate it, but for their efforst usually come under fire for daring to make an observation, reinforce their claims with canon and put it out there for all to review or shred. to them I salute them because quite frankly, they are far more patient than I would be if I was called a liar or a deliberate abuser of text.
CD

[delemtri]

What! :rotfl: I will start calling you Neron. It's much meaningful than Heron and more appropiate. You talk exactly as Neron must have when he was persecuting Christians. What does it say about your ship?

Oh, wow. You just compared me to a despotic murderer because I like to press my advantage and win arguments. I have the world's smallest violin in my hands and I'm playing you the world's saddest song.

[Krumpet]

I think that character-wise, you can find more similarity between the HP characters and the characters of Lloyd Alexander's 'Prydain' Chronicles, but the plots (once you get past 'generic fantasy heroism') are way different, mainly because each of the Prydain books has its own weird setting and events, and the Harry Potter books have a very structured timeline. I think, for instance, that Snape and Prince Ellidyr from 'The Black Cauldron' are very much alike, but I hope Snape has a happier fate.


I loved the Prydain Chronicles and see a minimal similarity between Taran and Harry, but their story lines are so varied as you said, it would make a comparison difficult. I'd never thought of Snape/Prince Ellidyr comparison before, (though I hate Snape) so I wouldn't mind if he did face a similar fate. :evil:

Then, there's Lord of the Rings. Would people even be talking about this so much if LotR and HP movies hadn't been made at the same time? I think not. Yeah, there are plenty of parallels you can make between the two, but all the ones I've read have just been superficial 'generic fantasy epic' talking points. There are loads of series out there that follow the stuff LotR made famous, mainly the band of friends, often composed of Men, Elves, and Dwarves going on a quest of some sort. Those ones have lots of similarities to LotR, not because the authors have plagiarized, but because the characters need to have certain elements in common in order for the stories to be exciting and for their motivations to make sense.

LOTR was pretty much the start of the genre that Harry Potter is now in. You can't help but compare them at times. I for one actually like reading a good comparison between the two. Though I hope HP ends happier then LotR.

I think if we want to use other books to make predictions about the HP characters, we need to step WAY outside the LotR/StarWars box! It is possible, I think, because certain characters with certain motivations in HP have close matches throughout the genre of fantasy and just general science fiction, but let's at least try for a little variety!

Agree wholeheartedly. I actually love when Austen, is brought up because from at least a romance angle I think that is what we are going to see similarities to. I've never read "A Wrinkle in Time" but I wouldn't mind if the Star Wars comparisons died out a little bit. :)

[Anakin Solo]

It's absurd to use the "Hero gets the girl" logic with these stories. There's absolutely no way to tell how things are going to go in the romance department, and I know JKR cautioned us against making too many Star Wars parallels, but it's a fine example of a story where the hero didn't get the girl and it was still brilliant.
As per JKR, Hermione can't be Harry's sister, but she's one of his best friends, which is, IMO, just as important. And no matter what happens, who falls in love with whom, the most important thing is that the three of them should remain friends. JKR herself has said that the Trio are strongest when they're together, which is why I don't like the idea of a situation where they end up estranged, even for a little while. And just because Harry can't fall in love with Ron, that doesn't make him any less important to the story than Hermione. I wish some people would see that.

Uh, the hero didn't get the girl in Star Wars because of the small problem that they were siblings...

Now, I think that whoever Harry gets with will be the lead female, since right now that person is hermione, I can't see anyone else being with Harry. If Hermione get's knocked out of that position a bit, THEN that opens the door to a Ginny or Luna

BTW, I just want to comment on the one quote about JKR sounding incredoulous that we hadn't figured out who Hermione loved. I'v read all 5 books, and I haven't seen Hermione in love with either Ron or Harry, she may have a crush on one but that's it so far

[AmmoniaAlert]

If I did consider this interview as proof that my conclusion to think JKR will write H/Hr in book6 is at fault I did probaberly seriously consider if I'm able to understand an interview in context or not, if I'm able to understand text and grammar and if I was ever able previous that interview to understand this books at all.

But aren't you saying here that you *can't* consider this interview *because* it would mean you misinterpreted canon?

*If* JKR is saying that Harry and Hermione are not suited as romantic partners (and you have to admit there is at least the possibility she did mean it that way)?

[Melcb98]

drdementor- your the best! I leave for a few moments, and I have back-up! Thank you.

Can you prove that Han is a sidekick which shows that SW is not a hero getting the girl story?
We are seeing things differently. Because, I believe that Ron is a hero, just as much as Han was in Star Wars. I doubt you'll agree. But, as heroes go- these stories are about Luke and Harry, not Han and Ron. So, that puts them on the sidekick level, if I must say Plus, if you read my past posts, you can also see how these comparrisons cannot have a true correlation, from the very way they are told.

I'm personally going to go back to the Harry Potter love topics.

[delemtri]

Agree wholeheartedly. I actually love when Austen, is brought up because from at least a romance angle I think that is what we are going to see similarities to. I've never read "A Wrinkle in Time" but I wouldn't mind if the Star Wars comparisons died out a little bit. :)

I've given my opinion on comparing the series to other books before - I don't think it's at all constructive. Sorry.

So, that puts them on the sidekick level, if I must say

As does a direct quote from JKR, lest we forget.

BTW, I just want to comment on the one quote about JKR sounding incredoulous that we hadn't figured out who Hermione loved. I'v read all 5 books, and I haven't seen Hermione in love with either Ron or Harry, she may have a crush on one but that's it so far

Well, Heron is here to help you figure it out.

[Oro]

The trio's structure is interesting.

Harry and Hermione, platonic friends (according to JKR...).
Harry and Ron are like brothers.
Ron is in love with the girl of the trio.

Luke and Leia, platonic friends (oh yeah, very platonic...)
Luke and Han, like brothers.
Han is in love with the girl of the trio.

[FlyingPhoenix]

But aren't you saying here that you *can't* consider this interview *because* it would mean you misinterpreted canon?

If I consider that an interview which was for OotP did negate the possibilty of my thinking H/Hr will happen in book6 or 7 then I did seriously ask myself what I'm understanding in general because it doesn't make sense. How can I take an interview as treat to my ship if it just says what I was thinking anyway, says that H/Hr won't happen in book5? If I did I must have a splittet personality one who argued through and through H/Hr will happen in book6 or 7 and another who thought it did in book5.

[Anakin Solo]

I see. I haven't been around long enough to notice that, although the same happens on another board I'm on, (a politics one). On it, with some 35,000 members, there are FAR more liberals, but the people who have a lot of wit, posts, time, energy, knowledge and facts are disproportionately conservative, and one of them can usually take on an entire thread of opposition.

I'd like to think that I could be a pain to both sides of this arguement, but there haven't been a whole lot of Harmonians posting things to contest, (though this star wars thing is sorta weird).

That's because the conservatives are right, in all meanings of the word.

The SW thing is because we are debating whether the hero gets the girl, In SW, the Harmonians say yes, the Herons say no, whether this translates into HP is another point of debate

[Fury]

to me... even though they aren't really related... Harry and Hermione act like brother and sister... it is just how they are around each other. Hermione and Harry do not get in many fights... but when they do, I don't think Hermione can handle them well...

[Darynthe]

I think sales would have very little to do with it. Misleading is form of dishonesty. She has expressed over and over, in many ways, a desire to be fundamentally "honest". She employs other methods when she doesn't want to provide too much information. As my last post indicated, I don't think she would need to resort to misleading to throw people off track. In addition to the point I made about not thinking she would, she doesn't need to; she's too clever! If she didn't want to reveal info, then why has she chosen those questions on so many occasions? Is she lying when she says we should know?


She also said we should know that Abenforth was the bartender in the Hog's head. She thought it was obvious if you're careful, but we know it was not at all obvious. A *few* hardcore fans had their suspicions with a lead, but it was hardly obvious as we understand the word. I think she's such a genius, so over the top that she thinks we all are like that too and unfortunately not everybody has written a series based on classic mithology with a mix of Sherlock Holmes mystery... Plus she's got the advantage of knowing where she's leading. It could be obvious to her but not to others.

I don't think she's lying, but she herself has said that she dodges "these questions". She said we can have an open discussion once all books are out. I don't think there is much else to say after such openess about the value of her answers in general, not only about shipping.


You may not be hurt...it doesn't mean others wouldn't. And, I'm thinking mostly of kids here not overzealous herons.

I dont' think that a great ammount of kids follow the interviews, and doubt they care about the romance, since they are...you know, kids.

I don't think anybody could be actaully hurt, more like dissapointed.



My point was that there are many forms of lying that are indeed illegal. There may be forms that are not, true but you said it wasn't illegal anywhere and that's not true.

I stand by what I said. There is not a criminal offense called "Lying". If it exists it has other names such as the ones you provided.



No, but if he lied and mislead prior to marriage and I later found out about it I could get an annulment. If he pathalogically lied as part of emotional abuse I could get a divorce. There are lots of laws where lying is a factor.

But, I'm not saying JK misleading with quotes would be unlawful lying. You brought legality into it not me and it's probably lead us off topic.


The thing is you could get a divorce which is the dissolution of a contract. But he wouldn't go to jail.

I agree we are off track right now with the discussion but it was interesting.

I will finish for those who would judge too harshly: Thee without sin, throw the first stone.

[Polychrome]

Uh, the hero didn't get the girl in Star Wars because of the small problem that they were siblings...

Funny, I remember Leia confessing her love before Luke figured it out...

BTW, would you do me the favor of not making conservatives look bad? :P

[delemtri]

That's because the conservatives are right, in all meanings of the word.

The SW thing is because we are debating whether the hero gets the girl, In SW, the Harmonians say yes, the Herons say no, whether this translates into HP is another point of debate

You are wrong, twice. The first one I won't go into. The second one is a common misconception of Harmonians that Hermione is "the girl." There are lots of girls in this series, none of whom Harry is *trying* to get as of the end of OOTP. The debate is about two things: 1) Who does Hermione like? 2) Who does Harry like? (Pretty much everyone agrees that Ron likes Hermione.)

[mrs_bombadil]

Uh, the hero didn't get the girl in Star Wars because of the small problem that they were siblings...

...and I happen to think that Hermione is functionally and emotionally the same as a sister to Harry...

IMO, the thing Harry needed most when he got to Hogwarts was a family and Ron and Hermione filled that role...before Sirius became somewhat like a surrogate father and Molly became a surrogate mother, they became his de facto siblings. JK does allude to something like this in one interview.

Q: In this era of very involved parenting, do you think that the notion of boarding school and the autonomy it offers might hold an almost taboo allure for both kids and parents?


A: I think that's definitely true. Harry's status as orphan gives him a freedom other children can only dream about (guiltily, of course). No child wants to lose their parents, yet the idea of being removed from the expectations of parents is alluring. The orphan in literature is freed from the obligation to satisfy his/her parents, and from the inevitable realization that his/her parents are flawed human beings. There is something liberating, too, about being transported into the kind of surrogate family which boarding school represents, where the relationships are less intense and the boundaries perhaps more clearly defined.

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/0399-salon-weir.htm

To me Ron and Hermione have always been very clearly defined for Harry. They are meant to be a constant and relatively uncomplicated, pure support for him.

[drdementor]

I think we've never seen both Hermione and Harry get angry at each other and have a true fight.

In OotP, Hermione IS good at getting Harry to see her side of things even when he's shouting mad. She appeases him and gets him to listen to her.

But Hermione and Harry have never had a true fight, or even strong argument (defined as a point in which both are angry at each other). Harry's taken Ron's side before, and given Hermione the cold shoulder, but he avoids disputes with her on HER hot buttons, like SPEW. Harry has yelled at Hermione, but she wasn't angry at him then.

I think that if Harry and Hermione ARE getting together at some point, we need to see them have a true dispute, moment of mutual hostility, what have you. Because married people aren't always dancing on beds of rose petals. They get mad at each other (gasp! sometimes even at the same time)! And we'll need to see how Harry and Hermione deal with that (if they are the future couple).

I think that we may not see such a scene, because I'm a Heron, I think Ron and Hermione are getting together, and we already know Hermione and Ron can handle moments of mutual hostility with each other. If Ginny and Harry are it, we'll see a bit more possible anger (Ginny gave as good as she got in OotP, as I recall). If it's Luna and Harry, Luna may lose her cool at some point.

It's not that I think the road to romantic bliss is marked out by bickering, it's just that I think that Jo's the kind of author who will demonstrate that romantic couples need to know they can handle being angry at each other. Not all people fight very often, and not all friends have fights, but all couples do at some point in time.

[delemtri]

To me Ron and Hermione have always been very clearly defined for Harry. They are meant to be a constant and relatively uncomplicated, pure support for him.

Sidekicks! :)

[mrs_bombadil]

I dont' think that a great ammount of kids follow the interviews, and doubt they care about the romance, since they are...you know, kids.


What we refer to as "interviews" include all kinds of Q&A sessions. I can't speak with any authority on how many pre-teens have sought information from quotes, but I can tell you off the top of my head 5 instances where the questioners were most certainly at least partially, if not mostly, kids--the Press Club interview with the platonic quote, the Yahooligans chat, the Royal Albert Hall appearance, the World Book Day chat, and the Edinburg Book Festival (which can be confirmed by watching the clip available in multiple formats on this page: http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.colo.ednet.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_2_2&newsid=4775&newsType=n1_2).

As for not caring, ships were the subjects of questions at at least 4 of those.

[Moonstruck]

If you watch only the first movie and don't know the end of the series, Han does come off as a sidekick. A snarky,surly, 'anti-hero' sidekick, but a sidekick nonetheless.

We see Han first when Luke and Ben recruit him for the use of his ship.

And how is this in the sidekick role? Han is getting paid for his services so therefore he is more of a 'hero-for-hire' (something very much in the anti-hero mold). He also kills Greedo in a very non-sidekick way (but in an anti-hero way).

Luke is the one who gets Leia out of her cell. Luke is the one who swings her across the pit. Ben (aka Obiwan) is the one who stalls Vader by fighting him. Han is the goofball shooting his mouth off, being rude to Leia, and blasting everything in sight, basically causing more problems than he solves. R2D2 is more helpful than Han is in the Death Star rescue mission.

Han is the one who told Luke to get Leia out of the cell. Not Luke.

As for Han being the 'goofball,' again, that's another point to him being an anti-hero. All his remarks show (at least on the surface) that he doesn't care about the situlation. He's only here (as he reminds people nearly all the time) that he's only in this for the money. That is very much like an anti-hero. The anti-hero always jusifies his actions by stating he's only doing it for another reason (one that does not show he's actually kind and nice).

The first time we ever can see Han as any sort of anti-hero is in the final battle which is the first time we get to see him in action without Luke or Ben present. He's a good fighter in the battle, (and so is Wedge, I might add), but it is Luke's force-guided shot that gives the Death Star the final blow and saves the day.

I never said that Han is the hero and only hero of SW. Luke is very much like Harry, he is the only one who can do the job at hand (Luke, blow up the Death Star, get rid of the main bad guys; Harry, get rid of Voldemort). Han, however, is the anti-hero of SW. The non-Jedi character who shows that even the normal guy can be a hero (at least until the Rebels run out of money :p ).

Han and Chewy get medals with Luke at the end, but Luke is clearly the hero of 'A New Hope.' Not Han.

Actually, Chewie didn't get a medal, but that is a completely different subject to argue about. But Han is the anti-hero of AHN. The anti-hero is on the same tree as hero, just on a different branch (whereas sidekick is a completely different tree).

Han gets to shine in 'The Empire Strikes Back' and 'Return of the Jedi' because he and Luke aren't really around each other all that much. That means that in the 'Han, Chewy and Leia scenes', Han is definitely the hero while Leia is the heroine. Luke is off learning from Yoda, dealing with Vader, etc. Here, we could cut Luke out and Han would still be doing great. I would argue that Han is definitely the anti-hero and NOT a sidekick in the final two movies, but he is in 'A New Hope' because he is always around Luke.

Not always. Remember him running off after stormtroopers (what was that he yelled? "Get back to the ship!" A sidekick? Giving orders? How rude!). Han is older and wiser of Luke. In Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces, Han is the Shapeshifter. Luke can't be sure if Han can be trusted (and it shows). The sidekick is supposed to be the loyal one to the hero, not make the hero distrust him.

[Darynthe]

Well, about the heroine part Hermione has, even her name sounds like Heroine. It's an anagram!! Anagrams are very important for JRK. :lol: That just for starters.

My second point is that in mistery books, the person who solves the mystery is MOSTLY ALWAYS the main character (the hero/heroine?). In the HP universe it is Hermione who usually solves the many mysteries, catches up on hidden meanings, discovers traps, solves the riddles and allows the other main character go through the heroic deeds. If the books weren't named "Harry Potter and the ....." I would think that Hermione has as much right to be called heroine after such an story as Order of the Phoenix. This is my personal opinion of course, I don't know what JKR thinks.

[Melcb98]

Moonstruck- you have a different view of the anti-hero and sidekick than others have. Please remember that being a sidekick is not a bad thing. Being a sidekick does not mean you are unimportant, that you do nothing, that you have no real good use, that you can't have a mind of your own. Sorry, but it doesn't. Han is not the main hero of Star Wars. He is not the protagonist.

Relating it back to HP: JKR says two things:
Hermione is a sidekick. And Harry needs her (brains) badly. You don't think poorly of Hermione do you? She is extremely important, isn't she? Lets look at Ron- also a sidekick- yet extremely important to Harry and helps him get through life. Ron is funny, courageous, and more.

And, I'll say it again: the way Star Wars and Harry Potter are told are not the same. Harry Potter is not over with yet, therefore this conversation really shouldn't be taking place until it is.

[rightstuff]

Just to add The Power of Myth, by Joseph Campbell is what George Lucas creditted as inspiriration to the original Star Wars. His archetypes come from the Campbell school of thinking.

ALso Moonstruck has an academic venacular regarding the archetypes. It is just this "view" that literary circles use, it does not translate to common venacular.

[Darynthe]

What we refer to as "interviews" include all kinds of Q&A sessions. I can't speak with any authority on how many pre-teens have sought information from quotes, but I can tell you off the top of my head 5 instances where the questioners were most certainly at least partially, if not mostly, kids--the Press Club interview with the platonic quote, the Yahooligans chat, the Royal Albert Hall appearance, the World Book Day chat, and the Edinburg Book Festival (which can be confirmed by watching the clip available in multiple formats on this page: http://scotlandtoday.scottishtv.colo.ednet.co.uk/content/default.asp?page=s1_2_2&newsid=4775&newsType=n1_2).

As for not caring, ships were the subjects of questions at at least 4 of those.

I know that, but I am talking about readers. Those kids were especially selected for a tv show. We could hardly make an assumption over a group which is not random.

My own personal experience is that I haven't seen any kid who has actually gone through the whole of the Order of the Phoenix. I doubt a normal kid under 10 would be able to read it, not only for it being a more complex language than somebody under 12 could handle but also the sheer bulk. Not everybody even adult will take an almost 1000 pages book for light reading! These books are now adult focused.

[mrs_bombadil]

Well, about the heroine part Hermione has, even her name sounds like Heroine. It's an anagram!! Anagrams are very important for JRK. :lol: That just for starters.

My second point is that in mistery books, the person who solves the mystery is MOSTLY ALWAYS the main character (the hero/heroine?). In the HP universe it is Hermione who usually solves the many mysteries, catches up on hidden meanings, discovers traps, solves the riddles and allows the other main character go through the heroic deeds. If the books weren't named "Harry Potter and the ....." I would think that Hermione has as much right to be called heroine after such an story as Order of the Phoenix. This is my personal opinion of course, I don't know what JKR thinks.

ONE anagram makes them VERY important? :huh:

And, heehee, you asked for it, but JKR has told us what she thinks on this matter:

Oh, dear. I’ll stop now then. Do you get grief --- do you get criticism that you don’t have enough females in strong positions in your stories?

Well, in fact, if you run down the staff list at Hogwarts ---. People have said this to me before, I have to say that. There are many things I can say to that. The first thing I should say is that I had been writing this book for 6 months before I myself, it did take me 6 months, stopped and thought ‘Hang on, why is it Harry, why isn’t it Harriet? Why is this a boy?‘ Now, the answer is that Harry came to me so complete, so real that if I had stopped, after 6 months of writing and thought, ‘we’ll change him into a girl, I’m going to be politically correct, I’m going to make a heroine‘, it would have been putting Harry into drag. He was too real to me by then to turn him into a girl. He was a boy in my head and I already had Hermione and I had Ron and I was too fond of them by then to want to tamper with them so that is my answer and I’m sticking by it, I’m unapologetic about it. If you look down the staff list in the school, you will find that it is exactly 50% women and 50% men as teachers. Now, people possibly don’t realize that enough. I see Professor McGonagall, for example, as a very strong female character. I did get an e-mail the other day from someone in America, saying ‘When are we going to see a strong female character?’ and I wrote back and told her I was deeply offended because I think Hermione and Professor McGonagall are very strong characters. But I did say to her ‘but if you mean a nasty female character, wait till Book 4.’

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/1999/1099-connectiontransc.html

And the other quotes in this same vein, that I've seen anyway, are about pointing out that there are more than one "strong female characters"; Hermione is presented as the most obvious but not as the only one, and certainly not as the heroine.

And she's said that Harry is getting stronger than Hermione...

and that Hermione is useful for expostion...

and that she is a caricature...

P.S. If you like anagrams, you might like one a user at New Clues discovered:

HERMIONE = I HE RON ME :eyebrows: (Yours left out the "M") :p

[McBeth]

My own personal experience is that I haven't seen any kid who has actually gone through the whole of the Order of the Phoenix. I doubt a normal kid under 10 would be able to read it, not only for it being a more complex language than somebody under 12 could handle but also the sheer book. Not everybody even adult will take an almost 1000 pages book for light reading! These books are now adult focused.

I know two girls who read OotP at age seven. I read it at twelve in a day. The size may be a bit daunting, but when it comes to HP, nothing stops a kid from reading the book, whether there are complex words in it or not.

[Moonstruck]

Moonstruck- you have a different view of the anti-hero and sidekick than others have. Please remember that being a sidekick is not a bad thing. Being a sidekick does not mean you are unimportant, that you do nothing, that you have no real good use, that you can't have a mind of your own. Sorry, but it doesn't.

Relating it back to HP: JKR says two things:
Hermione is a sidekick. And Harry needs her (brains) badly. You don't think poorly of Hermione do you? She is extremely important, isn't she? Lets look at Ron- also a sidekick- yet extremely important to Harry and helps him get through life. Ron is funny, courageous, and more.

And, I'll say it again: the way Star Wars and Harry Potter are told are not the same. Harry Potter is not over with yet, therefore this conversation really shouldn't be taking place until it is.

I cannot change the facts of the matter nor George Lucas' thinking of it. What I'm showing is what the stereotypical anti-hero is (which Han is). I cannot change that. And I did not say anything about a sidekick being unimportant. I said nothing like that of the sort about sidekicks. Please do not twist my words into something they are not. R2 is the perfect example of a sidekick and look how useful he is! But that is because R2 showcases stereotypical signs of a sidekick. Chewie does as well. That does not mean that they are useless and you will never hear me say such things.

[Anakin Solo]

Just one thing, to contrast Harry's relationship with Ron and his relatioship with Hermione. Someone said they thought that HArry and Hermione need to have a fight before they get together. Cho and Harry didn't fight until after they get together. Besides, Harry and Hermione have had disputes before, such as in the last acts of OoTP, just not as pronounced as Hermione and Ron's fights. Okay, Hermione and Ron are different to Harry in a lot of ways, heres one example: If Harry is mad at someone or something, Ron will agree with Harry totally, and side with harry completely. Hermione on the other hand would attempt to give the "other side of the story" point out to Harry where he may deserve some of the blame, and then attempt to solve Harry's problem. This is very different from Harry's relationship with Ron.

[mrs_bombadil]

I know that, but I am talking about readers. Those kids were especially selected for a tv show. We could hardly make an assumption over a group which is not random.

My own personal experience is that I haven't seen any kid who has actually gone through the whole of the Order of the Phoenix. I doubt a normal kid under 10 would be able to read it, not only for it being a more complex language than somebody under 12 could handle but also the sheer bulk. Not everybody even adult will take an almost 1000 pages book for light reading! These books are now adult focused.

JKR's own daughter for one has read them all. The Kid's page of my newspaper (a very large one) has been packed with stories about the kids who read it, MANY under 12.

What are you talking about with the TV show?

The clip I linked was a report on who showed up at the Edinburgh Book Festival ... and the audience was determined by a random lottery.

The Press Club interview was on the radio only.
The Yahooligans chat was online for kids
The Royal Albert Hall appearance--I don't know how it was selected but it was not televised.
The World Book Day chat was, I believe, almost entirely kids

I don't like to say this but you are just wrong on this one.

[Melcb98]

I cannot change the facts of the matter nor George Lucas' thinking of it. What I'm showing is what the stereotypical anti-hero is (which Han is). I cannot change that. And I did not say anything about a sidekick being unimportant. I said nothing like that of the sort about sidekicks. Please do not twist my words into something they are not. R2 is the perfect example of a sidekick and look how useful he is! But that is because R2 showcases stereotypical signs of a sidekick. Chewie does as well. That does not mean that they are useless and you will never hear me say such things.
When you say:
Remember him running off after stormtroopers (what was that he yelled? "Get back to the ship!" A sidekick? Giving orders? How rude!).

That doesn't show me you have much respect for sidekicks. Sidekicks can do things on their own.

BTW- the definition of anti-hero is: A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.

Lets see, Han Solo is not the main character in Star Wars. Han Solo may have anti-hero qualities (to an extent, because Han is also Courageous, something anti-heroes may not be)- but he is a sidekick in ANH. Han's role changes in episode five and six, because the story changes- in a way that an never be compared to HP.

And, please, can you tell me that Ron doesn't compare with Han?

[Anakin Solo]

I cannot change the facts of the matter nor George Lucas' thinking of it. What I'm showing is what the stereotypical anti-hero is (which Han is). I cannot change that. And I did not say anything about a sidekick being unimportant. I said nothing like that of the sort about sidekicks. Please do not twist my words into something they are not. R2 is the perfect example of a sidekick and look how useful he is! But that is because R2 showcases stereotypical signs of a sidekick. Chewie does as well. That does not mean that they are useless and you will never hear me say such things.









Good points in all. Han is never really the sidekick, the only time where Luke orders Han around is when he convinces Han to rescue the Princess in A new Hope. During the rest of the films they are on equal grounds, and Han is actually more important in the political scope of the Rebellion than Luke. I am dissapointed that Ron has faded a bit in OoTP, but the fact is that he has.

[rightstuff]

BTW- the definition of anti-hero is: A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.

It say a main character, not the main character.

So by this definition Han is an anti-hero since he is a main character. Leia is a main character, Luke is a main character as well.

So are you saying Han is not a main character and sub tier character?

[Melcb98]

I am dissapointed that Ron has faded a bit in OoTP, but the fact is that he has.
Actually, that is not a fact, but your opinion. I don't agree.

[Anakin Solo]

When you say:
Remember him running off after stormtroopers (what was that he yelled? "Get back to the ship!" A sidekick? Giving orders? How rude!).

That doesn't show me you have much respect for sidekicks. Sidekicks can do things on their own.

BTW- the definition of anti-hero is: A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.

Lets see, Han Solo is not the main character in Star Wars. Han Solo may have anti-hero qualities (to an extent, because Han is also Courageous, something anti-heroes may not be)- but he is a sidekick in ANH. Han's role changes in episode five and six, because the story changes- in a way that an never be compared to HP.

And, please, can you tell me that Ron doesn't compare with Han?

I think that a lot of the Trilogy is similar to Harry Potter. In the beginning of Harry Potter and Star Wars, Voldemort is the bad guy, and Vader is the bad guy, but in the first 3 books, and the first SW film, Harry and Luke aren't the arch enemey's of their perspective baddies. It isn't until Book 5, when Harry learns that only he can defeat Voldemort, and Empire Strikes back, when Luke learns that only he can kill Vader, that they seperate themselves from their friends in importance. This IMO leaves two options. Either Harry seperates himself slowly from Ron and HErmione, allowing Heron, because I don't think Heron can occur without causing Jealousy bY Harry if the Trio is still tight, or Harry can grow closer to Ron and Hermione, which IMO will make it difficult for either Heron or Harmony. The only way I can see Harmony occuring (which I would love) is for Ron to continue to fade, and for Hermione to continue to grow, in their relationship with Harry.

[Melcb98]

It say a main character, not the main character.

So by this definition Han is an anti-hero since he is a main character. Leia is a main character, Luke is a main character as well.

So are you saying Han is not a main character and sub tier character?
Han is a main character, as much as Leia is, on the second level, below Luke. Would I say Han is the main character- never.
Just like Ron and Hermione are main characters, below Harry.

And, since I say this in what seems to be every post on this subject, it can't hurt to say it again:
Star Wars and HP cannot be compared in certain ways, because their narrative is different!

[Anakin Solo]

Actually, that is not a fact, but your opinion. I don't agree.










Hermione starts the Da, get's rid of Dungbridge, brings Harry back to life after Christmas, encourages Harry to keep going with Occlumency, Actually helps Harry in DOM...etc. Ron goes with the flow in OoTP, whil Hermione is more of a leader, I wish Ron was more involved but he isn't.

[Fury]

Why do you say that Harry wouldn't like Hermione and Ron getting together... IMO, I believe he can't wait for these two to get together so they would stop bickering... i don't think it would stop. But like Herons, I believe Harry also thinks it is obvious these two like each other...

I don't think it would break up the friendship at all.

[FlyingPhoenix]

JKR's own daughter for one has read them all. The Kid's page of my newspaper (a very large one) has been packed with stories about the kids who read it, MANY under 12.

After my knowledge her daughter didn't read all books, she did read till book4 but not 5 and as much I know with JKR together because how old is her daughter? 8? She is bit too young to read them alone.

I'm not sure but JKR specialy said at one point kids younger as 10 shouldn't read this books at least not alone. I believe it was in a situation as a mother did complain that she hoped the next book would be less scary then book4

[Anakin Solo]

Just one thing, on whether JKR would lie or mislead us. I wouldn't say she would mislead us, but we may become misled, if you understand what I'm saying

[Moonstruck]

When you say:
Remember him running off after stormtroopers (what was that he yelled? "Get back to the ship!" A sidekick? Giving orders? How rude!).

That doesn't show me you have much respect for sidekicks. Sidekicks can do things on their own.

How many sidekicks do you see giving orders? I haven't seen many. Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen any.

BTW- the definition of anti-hero is: A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage.

That is mostly correct. The anti-hero tries to hide traits like courage (or does not know they have it) in order to preserve their image.

Lets see, Han Solo is not the main character in Star Wars. Han Solo may have anti-hero qualities (to an extent, because Han is also Courageous, something anti-heroes may not be)- but he is a sidekick in ANH. Han's role changes in episode five and six, because the story changes- in a way that an never be compared to HP.

But he is a main character. Lucas created Han to be a foil to Luke. Much like Ben is a foil to Vader, but yet you can't say Ben is not a main character nor could you say Vader isn't a main character.

Han Solo is the most well-known anti-hero in the movie industry. He sometimes surpasses Luke (he was the number one character voted among SW fans by SW Insider back before 99, Luke was third, I believe).

And, please, can you tell me that Ron doesn't compare with Han?

You mean how they two do not compare?

[Melcb98]

Hermione starts the Da, get's rid of Dungbridge, brings Harry back to life after Christmas, encourages Harry to keep going with Occlumency, Actually helps Harry in DOM...etc. Ron goes with the flow in OoTP, whil Hermione is more of a leader, I wish Ron was more involved but he isn't.
Ron was still around, wasn't he?

Hermione said that the DA was her and Ron's idea.
And, it was Ginny who truley helped Harry after Christmas.
Yes, Hermione does get rid of Umbridge.
Hermione more like nags Harry to keep up with Occulemcy.
Ron was at the DOM- so was Neville, Luna, and Ginny.

Again, its your opinion.

[Anakin Solo]

Why do you say that Harry wouldn't like Hermione and Ron getting together... IMO, I believe he can't wait for these two to get together so they would stop bickering... i don't think it would stop. But like Herons, I believe Harry also thinks it is obvious these two like each other...

I don't think it would break up the friendship at all.








Well, in OoTP, Harry was furious at Ron and HErmione for having fun without him, a theme that was from the other books as well. Plus, I don't think that Harry knows for certain that Ron likes Hermione...As a teenage guy, I think it's kinda wierd that Ron hasn't directly told Harry about his crush on Hermione...

[Melcb98]

How many sidekicks do you see giving orders? I haven't seen many. Come to think of it, I don't think I've seen any.
LOL, Hermione give orders all the time!!

You mean how they two do not compare?
That exactly what I said. Tell me how they don't compare with each other. Because, they have a lot in common- as much as they can narratively.

[rightstuff]

Han is a main character, as much as Leia is, on the second level, below Luke. Would I say Han is the main character- never.
Just like Ron and Hermione are main characters, below Harry.

And, since I say this in what seems to be every post on this subject, it can't hurt to say it again:
Star Wars and HP cannot be compared in certain ways, because their narrative is different!


My problem with your statements is you will only accept a certain execution of character archetype ie anti-hero as the main character when in fact that is false.

LoTR for example has Aragorn is an anti-hero and he is also a main character, but Frodo is the hero.

BTW I also have stated you can't aompare Star Wars trio with HP.

[Anakin Solo]

Ron was still around, wasn't he?

Hermione said that the DA was her and Ron's idea.
And, it was Ginny who truley helped Harry after Christmas.
Yes, Hermione does get rid of Umbridge.
Hermione more like nags Harry to keep up with Occulemcy.
Ron was at the DOM- so was Neville, Luna, and Ginny.

Again, its your opinion.


Come on, honestly, Ron didn't think the Da through taht thorougly!
Ginny didn't get Harry to interact with anyone!
Yea, Hermione nagged, but unlike Ron, who sided with Harry, she was completely justified, as we see in retrospect

LOL, Hermione give orders all the time!!


That exactly what I said. Tell me how they don't compare with each other. Because, they have a lot in common- as much as they can narratively.







What, how Ron and HErmione do or do not compare?

My problem with your statements is you will only accept a certain execution of character archetype ie anti-hero as the main character when in fact that is false.

LoTR for example has Aragorn is an anti-hero and he is also a main character, but Frodo is the hero.

BTW I also have stated you can't aompare Star Wars trio with HP.






Why exactly can't you can compare Han Luke and Leia with Harry Ron and Hermione?

[Melcb98]

But he is a main character. Lucas created Han to be a foil to Luke. Much like Ben is a foil to Vader, but yet you can't say Ben is not a main character nor could you say Vader isn't a main character.

Han Solo is the most well-known anti-hero in the movie industry. He sometimes surpasses Luke (he was the number one character voted among SW fans by SW Insider back before 99, Luke was third, I believe).
Lucas changed his plan for Han, what Lucas originally intended does not matter to what is.
Maybe you are confusing what I mean by main character. I mean the main protagonist, who the story is about. I am not underestimating anyone, but Star Wars is about Luke, therefore, he is the main character. Harry is the main character of HP, but I would never underestimate Ron or Hermione or Dumbledore.

Han's my favorite character in SW, so what? Just like Ron is in HP!

[Fury]

Well, in OoTP, Harry was furious at Ron and HErmione for having fun without him, a theme that was from the other books as well.

Yeah, but it would not make him mad that they became a couple... he is just jealous they hang around each other more sometimes then with him... it happens to a lot of people...

Plus, I don't think that Harry knows for certain that Ron likes Hermione...As a teenage guy, I think it's kinda wierd that Ron hasn't directly told Harry about his crush on Hermione...

No, Ron has not told him. Ron probably thinks Harry would laugh at him. He also thinks Hermione would reject him or turn him down... when Herons like me believe she will absolutely fall for him. I believe she is waiting for him to ask. Like JK Rowling said... Ron doesn't realize it yet... but that is him.

[Melcb98]

Come on, honestly, Ron didn't think the Da through taht thorougly!
Thats not Ron's purpose in the books. Hermione is the brains, the thinker.

Ginny didn't get Harry to interact with anyone!
Hermione got Harry out of the room because he was surprised to see her. She did not make him feel better. Ginny did.

Yea, Hermione nagged, but unlike Ron, who sided with Harry, she was completely justified, as we see in retrospect
Retrospect is always good, but we don't have that when reading, and Harry does not have that to go by. Ron was standing by Harry, because he wanted to be a good friend. Hermione does what she does, but that is her character.

[Moonstruck]

LOL, Hermione give orders all the time!!

Because it is in her character to do so.

That exactly what I said. Tell me how they don't compare with each other. Because, they have a lot in common- as much as they can narratively.

Gladly!

Han fits the mold of the anti-hero. The Wikipedia Enyicapida describes the anti-hero as “central or supporting character that has some personality flaws and ultimate fortune traditionally assigned to villains, but nonetheless also have enough heroic qualities or intentions to gain the sympathy of readers.” Most anti-heroes tend to be on the wrong side of the law at first and are somehow dragged over to the right side. Most writers use the anti-hero to show that the line between a hero and a villain is not the black and white we often see it as.

Han fits these describtions. He is a central/supporting character who has personality flaws. In “A New Hope,” all he talks about is money and wanting it. Now he has a reason, but this does not paint him in a good light. He is also willing to kill others if he needs to (Greedo’s untimely demise, you may use either version). Han does not want to join the Rebels. He wants to stay out of the war. However, Luke (and Chewie, so say the rumors, and possible his love for Leia) keep him tied to the freedom fighters up to Empire Strikes Back. Han has all the markings of an anti-hero in the first two movies.

George Lucas says he created Han to be a ‘foil’ for Luke. “Luke is the young, idealistic, naïve, clean kid about to be initiated into the rites of manhood. So to make that really work, I needed something to contrast him against…I created Solo as a cynical world-weary pessimist to play oppsite Luke.”

In Return of the Jedi, Han changes. He accepts the post of General in the Allience and helps out in the war. A very different Han from the past movies. Han has transformed from an anti-hero to a real hero who fights, not for money, but for good.

Now we get to Ron. Ron is the sidekick of Harry Potter (the main character and hero of the book series). Going back to the Wikipedia Encylcpedia, sidekicks are “a close companion who assists a partner in a superior position.” Some sidekicks play against the hero by asking questions the reader would ask or do things the hero does not do. Other sidekicks simply play the comic relief. This one seems to suit Ron more. Ron’s role is to make jokes and also to provide Harry with some sense of being normal. He is willing to go to any lengths to see Harry through danger and the only thing that can stop him is seperation from Harry. He hardly fights in the battles due to this seperation, but that could change in the next two books. Ron embodies the traditional sidekick.

As we see, Han and Ron play very different roles in their respective stories. Han’s role is more complicated than Ron’s due to Han’s journey from anti-hero to hero. Ron, as of book five, as yet to start such a journey and, if he did, it would be from sidekick to hero. Such a journey would be very different from Han’s. Ron would have to leave the shadow of Harry, for example. He would also have to play a role in a battle. This battle could be with or without Harry. Since that the two characters occupy different roles in the character format, it is unfair to compare the two.

Lucas changed his plan for Han, what Lucas originally intended does not matter to what is.

How did he change his plans? Nothing of what Lucas originally intended clashes with the anti-hero statis Han is given.

Maybe you are confusing what I mean by main character. I mean the main protagonist, who the story is about. I am not underestimating anyone, but Star Wars is about Luke, therefore, he is the main character. Harry is the main character of HP, but I would never underestimate Ron or Hermione or Dumbledore.

If you are going by that, then SW is the story of the Skywalker family and the main protagonist is Anakin Skywalker.

Han's my favorite character in SW, so what? Just like Ron is in HP!

I love all the good guys and Vader. :p I'm odd. :D

[rightstuff]

Maybe you are confusing what I mean by main character. I mean the main protagonist, who the story is about.

This is different that saying main character. It holds a different literary relevance to say protaganist than saying main character. Goes back to the academic venacular versus common venacualr.



Why exactly can't you can compare Han Luke and Leia with Harry Ron and Hermione?
Although the have similar character top archetypes such as hero, herione, and anti-hero, the sub catagory are different. Hermione is a "Librarian" heroine while Leia isn't, I need to dig out my books to find the exact ones but basically They have different subcatergoies are different. Therefore can't do a comparison.

[Darynthe]

ONE anagram makes them VERY important? :huh:

People has found dozens of anagrams. JKR has explained to us of one very important. Doubt she'll explain the rest of them in the books, but they exist.


And, heehee, you asked for it, but JKR has told us what she thinks on this matter:
And the other quotes in this same vein, that I've seen anyway, are about pointing out that there are more than one "strong female characters"; Hermione is presented as the most obvious but not as the only one, and certainly not as the heroine.

Why being a strong character rules out being the heroine of the story? I don't see the point, sorry. And I don't get why Herons defend the idea of her not being a heroine. What does it have to do with shipping? As an interesting data: it is funny but before I knew this was a problem in the shipping debate I started a thread in the common room about which place has Hermione among the heroines of all time. Nobody challenged there that she is an heroine and rather gave a nice listings of heroines and reasons for liking her as one.

P.S. If you like anagrams, you might like one a user at New Clues discovered:

HERMIONE = I HE RON ME :eyebrows: (Yours left out the "M") :p


Here are a few for you too :):

Ronald Bilius Weasley: Loyal luna wise brides or also: Luna a bride yes will so

Harry James Potter: Hermy Jr as a Potter

and the M that was left outside in the other anagram:

HERMIONE: M HEROINE (which reads as: Am Heroine) :rotfl:

Note: these are shamelessly borrowed from Sienna's thread at Portkey. You rock.

[Toltec_7]

You can be a hero but not the hero (which is the protagonist) in a story.

Harry is the protagonist and in the Voldemort plot the main hero.

You can be a hero and a sidekick.

From a structural perspective, Harry is the protagonist and Ron and Hermione are sidekicks.

"Hero gets the girl"...if Harry is to get a girl, "the" girl is no more and no less than who he decides he wants (or JKR decides for him, rather).
Oh my god, we actually agree on something. Now don't you think the old argument of "harry can't get with Hermione because the hero gets the girl is just cliche" is just ridiculous because if Harry gets any girl this scenario applies?

As to the whole Heroine argument, why is this even being discussed Hermione is clearly the heroine of this story:

Definition:

1. [n] the main good female character in a work of fiction
2. [n] a woman possessing heroic qualities or a woman who has performed heroic deeds
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/heroine
Her´o`ine
n. 1. A woman of an heroic spirit.
The heroine assumed the woman's place.
- Dryden.
2. The principal female person who figures in a remarkable action, or as the subject of a poem or story.
http://www.webster-dictionary.net/definition/heroine
So by definiton of the word Hermione is clearly the Heroine of this story, does this mean she is above Ron? No, however her role has definitly been of greater importance than Ron from PoA onwards, this could of course change but it also may not.

Also why are people debating Star Wars? Has J.K not said that HP is not "Star Wars". Although I do agree with you Moonstruck, Han & Luke are both heros in SW, Han had his own journey and story in that universe, Rons however is being told to us through Harry, this goes back to the style J.K chooses to write in; SW is in "eye of god" mode we get to see what Han is up to when Luke is off doing other things, we don't get to see this in HP, even the movies have followed this same style.

[Fury]

Here are a few for you too :

ok...

Ronald Bilius Weasley: Loyal luna wise brides or also: Luna a bride yes will so
haha... Ron and Luna... I am More of Ron/Hermione but eh!

Harry James Potter: Hermy Jr as a Potter
Haha.. Hermy Jr. that is funny...

[mrs_bombadil]

People has found dozens of anagrams. JKR has explained to us of one very important. Doubt she'll explain the rest of them in the books, but they exist.

Doesn't mean they're intentional or meaningful. ;)

Why being a strong character rules out being the heroine of the story? I don't see the point, sorry. And I don't get why Herons defend the idea of her not being a heroine. What does it have to do with shipping? As an interesting data: it is funny but before I knew this was a problem in the shipping debate I started a thread in the common room about which place has Hermione among the heroines of all time. Nobody challenged there that she is an heroine and rather gave a nice listings of heroines and reasons for liking her as one.

I am simply bringing this up in regards to Hemione being THE heroine or THE female lead as a reason she must end up with Harry. I agree she's fabulous and important; I just think her role gets unnecessarily overblown to mean THE girl in "hero gets the girl".

Here are a few for you too :):

You win. ;) I'm not good at this game (but usually win the ones I am good at :p )

[playmaker9]

Haven't been here for a while, but a quick question that I just thought up...

Does everyone here want their opposite ship not to happen or dislike it simply because of cannon, or because they don't want to be wrong?

I was just thinking of this, and I figured, though I desperately want Harry and Hermione to get together, if I had never jumped into the debate threads, I don't think I would have cared much had it turned out R/Hr. I think the spark in me isn't that I dislike R/Hr, but that I don't want to be wrong.

Do you guys get what I'm saying here? Is your dislike for an opposing ship simply dislike or is it amplified by your own pride in not wanting to be wrong? I know what my answer is, I just didn't really realize it till now.

Just wondering...

Later Player

[Fury]

Haven't been here for a while, but a quick question that I just thought up...

Does everyone here want their opposite ship not to happen or dislike it simply because of cannon, or because they don't want to be wrong?

I was just thinking of this, and I figured, though I desperately want Harry and Hermione to get together, if I had never jumped into the debate threads, I don't think I would have cared much had it turned out R/Hr. I think the spark in me isn't that I dislike R/Hr, but that I don't want to be wrong.

Do you guys get what I'm saying here? Is your dislike for an opposing ship simply dislike or is it amplified by your own pride in not wanting to be wrong? I know what my answer is, I just didn't really realize it till now.

Just wondering...

Later Player

I do get what you are saying... I guess I would be sad if Ron didn't get with Hermione... they seem like they would be a great couple. I would be mad I am wrong because I believe it is so obvious.

I want Harry and Ginny to get together... but no, it wouldn't make me mad if he got with Luna...

[mrs_bombadil]

After my knowledge her daughter didn't read all books, she did read till book4 but not 5 and as much I know with JKR together because how old is her daughter? 8? She is bit too young to read them alone.

You are correct that there is discussion of JKR reading #5 to her daughter. These are the recent quotes I have found on the subject of her daughter's interest:

Website/Section: F.A.Q.
What do your children think of Harry Potter?
Jessica loves the books, which is very nice of her as she's had to share me with Harry for so long. David has no idea who Harry Potter is, which makes him very restful company!

My daughter is 9, and I know that she can cope with Book 5 because I'm reading it to her at the moment. She's coping." She's also, to her mother's mild dismay, begun dictating plot points. "She's told me unequivocally who I'm not to kill. And I've said, 'Well, I already know who's going to die, so now is not the time to come to me and tell me I mustn't kill X, Y and Zed, because their fates are now preordained.' And she doesn't like hearing that at all. Not at all."
http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0630-newsweek-staff.htm

World Book Day Chat
ashvital: Which of your books does your daughter like best?
JK Rowling replies -> It would be between Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix. She likes ACTION!

But there is no mention of the reasons for the group effort.

I'm not sure but JKR specialy said at one point kids younger as 10 shouldn't read this books at least not alone. I believe it was in a situation as a mother did complain that she hoped the next book would be less scary then book4

I'm sorry but I recall nothing like this. Please provide the back-up if you are going to make the claim. I'm not going to try to refute you because it's not about the substance of my point. I wasn't arguing suitability by age...I was stating that kids of certain ages DO INDEED read Bk 5 and they do indeed show an interesting in ships and they have participated in the Q&As.

[Melcb98]

Does everyone here want their opposite ship not to happen or dislike it simply because of cannon, or because they don't want to be wrong?
Well, for me, I went by canon. I don't like H/Hr because of canon, and I love R/Hr because of canon. Personal preference has to be a factor ( I love the idea of R/Hr), as well, but I had originally thought R/Hr in POA. Of course, I don't want to be wrong, but I feel I won't be, going by canon!! Canon can change, of course, but JKR says we already should know by now. But, in general, people don't like to be wrong.

[Laufa]

Haven't been here for a while, but a quick question that I just thought up...

Does everyone here want their opposite ship not to happen or dislike it simply because of cannon, or because they don't want to be wrong?

I was just thinking of this, and I figured, though I desperately want Harry and Hermione to get together, if I had never jumped into the debate threads, I don't think I would have cared much had it turned out R/Hr. I think the spark in me isn't that I dislike R/Hr, but that I don't want to be wrong.

Do you guys get what I'm saying here? Is your dislike for an opposing ship simply dislike or is it amplified by your own pride in not wanting to be wrong? I know what my answer is, I just didn't really realize it till now.

Just wondering...

Later Player

Well, I can't I never liked the thought of H/Hr, because I didn't even think of H/Hr before I found this place.

If Harmony would happen I would join that ship, but I don't know if I could shake the feeling that Heron, the ship I've always fought for, is the ship to be.

However, I really don't dislike Harmony. I think it's sweet and beautiful, and it's based on brilliant friendship - I guess what I don't see is what's bringing them over the friendship barrier (like I see in Heron).
But I guess the answer to your question would be no. I don't care if I'm wrong, I'll just be glad to finally know what ship is the ship (I'll probably be about 30 then, thought), and I'll know I did my best to predict who will fall in love with whom, and I'll know I had good debates with people who read canon probably..
We'll just see!

Another question, though:
How many here are willing to go down with their ships? Are there people here who will ship despite of what JKR writes?

Personally, I'm not one of those - I guess I like the winning team too much :D - but I understand those who would. Months, perhaps years of arguing for a ship, fighting for it, beliving in it; it's not easy to give up, especially when there's a whole world of fanfics out there..

Love,
Eyrún

[connielane]

Connielane, I seriously don't want doubt your words but do you have something what back this up? Because that what I read on TLC is disagreeing with you.I suppose you are talking about this (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/MTarchives/week_2003_06_08.html#002980) article, which says "Katie Couric to Interview Rowling on Dateline 6/20." I never meant to imply that my statement about the timing of the interview was a fact. I'm just using what I know of how news magazines like Dateline work. Typically, their features are shot well in advance, because they usually (and did, in the case of the JKR interview) edit together a lot of different clips (book signings, movie clips, various shots of Edinburgh, shots of book warehouses boxing up cases of OotP) in and among the interview clips themselves. This all takes time; it can't be done overnight. And in the case of this interview, it couldn't possibly have been live, because it aired in the US when it was around 2am in Scotland. If Rowling were awake at that hour, she would have been just getting home from her surprise appearance at the Edinburgh bookseller.

The TLC article is dated June 11, so my guess is that it had already been filmed at that point. If that's true, then the interview happened before any of those early reviews showed up. The only thing controversial that had happened at that point was that guy stealing a manuscript from the printers. And if JKR was "angry", as you call it, she could have declined to be interviewed instead of sitting there and sticking it to the fans with her tricksy answers. It really disturbs me how people try to make her a villainess. I saw nothing in that interview to indicate that she is anything but straightforward and polite.I guess you mean this Interview (http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0619-bbcnews-paxman.htm) ?
It would probably help if you quote this part, I'm sorry I don't remember every Interview.It's the "snogging would alleviate matters" quote. The interview took place presumably around the same time as the Dateline interview. And at that point, nothing had happened that would account for your mood swing theory. That's all I'm saying.Priceless, you just point out what I'm saying.Um, how so?I find it unusually worded to say: Ron and Hermione, I would say. Why would she say that if she knows they become a couple anyway?I personally believe she was trying to be polite to Couric, after Couric got the coupling wrong. She reacted rather strongly, IMO, to the suggestion of H/Hr, and I think she was trying to backpedal a bit and trying not to make Couric feel foolish. But I realize that you have a different opinion on these matters. That's just what makes the most sense to me.Except they won't become one.I can quote you on that, right? *files information carefully away*“Any snogging with Hermione?” This is a question refered to OotP now tell me at what based should JKR answer? At those events in book6? Or book7? You see this illogic there, don't you? JKR even as author cannot answer this answer with her knowledge what will happen to them in book6 or 7 because the very question is based on book4. Lets try if I can make it clear.
Couric ask if in book5 is any snogging with Hermione, JKR knows in OotP is no snogging with Hermione at all. But she knows in book6 or 7 is some snogging however thats not the question, which is based on what we know about book1 till 4. There don't exist a romantic interest from Harry in Hermione, so there would be no snogging. But Ron got interest in Hermione, so yes that we would think is rather possible yet this don't happens. Does that mean H/Hr is unlikely? Err sorry but this wasn't the question because Harry can have now this kind of interest in Hermione or she in him or its starts in book6 to become this interest, but what we know JKR didn't negate it.

With view at this interview after we all read book5 is it pretty useless because JKR's answer was based on GoF and at this question what was too based on GoF. Its useless after OotP, its waste, trash. I'm suprised that you use that interview as argument anyway. Its just no more use for your ship just like the good old Platonic quote.Um, we're NOT using it as an argument. It was suggested earlier in this thread that the quote had misled several R/Hers into believing there would be an R/Hr kiss in book 5. This is patently untrue, and I'm afraid this fact is not up for discussion. Everyone I had any contact with who heard that quote interpreted the quote as applying to an unspecified time in the future, NOT the next book.Like I said before this answer is a answer to a question which was based on GoF.Excuse me??? Would you mind telling me how a question ("Any snogging with Hermione?") that is one of a series of questions ("Is he going through puberty?" and "Zits, does he have zits?") that begins with the inquiry of "Can you just tell me basically what happens to Harry in this book?" is a question about GoF? You can argue that the "tension" part of JKR's answer refers to GoF (though that's still quite a reach), but I'm afraid there is no debating which book "this book" refers to.Seriously if I knew the future and you asked me if H/Hr happens in HBP (lets pretend you do) do you seriously think if I knew it happens in book7 I say yes it will happen in HBP though it won't? That were a lie, I would lie to you. Mind you alone for the fun I did it probably, but thats meBut you are not JKR, and I cannot fathom her stooping to that kind of trickery in an interview of all things. Her answer to this question and the tone in which it is given is perfectly consistent with canon and all her other interview quotes, particularly her incredulous "I can't believe some of you haven't worked it out" remark.I'm amazed that you use an interview for this conclusion which is anyway very useless now and was it even then.Amazed or annoyed?Before I answer just let me say this isn't meant to offending you, its just how I would think in that situation. If I did consider this interview as proof that my conclusion to think JKR will write H/Hr in book6 is at fault I did probaberly seriously consider if I'm able to understand an interview in context or not, if I'm able to understand text and grammar and if I was ever able previous that interview to understand this books at all.I can't possibly respond to this comment without getting a mod-thwap so I'll just let it lie.

[mrs_bombadil]

Oh my god, we actually agree on something.

:wow:

Now don't you think the old argument of "harry can't get with Hermione because the hero gets the girl is just cliche" is just ridiculous because if Harry gets any girl this scenario applies?

I think any argument for or against R/Hr or H/Hr because of "cliche" is personal preference but not necessarily based on what JKR is actually writing. The only cliche argument I've made is that I think JKR has indicated in quotes that killing Ron would be.

As to the whole Heroine argument, why is this even being discussed Hermione is clearly the heroine of this story:

I'm not disputing that Hermione is a heroine, just that she is "the" heroine in the sense that she is "the" default girl for the hero.

[Darynthe]

Doesn't mean they're intentional or meaningful. ;)


Coincidences or rather clues? Take this one for instance:

Drooble's Best Blowing Gum can be: Gold bribe below St. Mungos

And one that could hardly be a coincidence:

Dangerous Dai LLwellyn Ward -- Serious Bites Coulde be: "Kreacher-induced injuries . . . Die . . . Sirius.


You win. ;) I'm not good at this game (but usually win the ones I am good at :p )


It's not me, Sienna found them and JKR put them there in the first place ;)

[FlyingPhoenix]

The TLC article is dated June 11, so my guess is that it had already been filmed at that point.

Maybe I'm wrong but aren't interviews known weeks before they actually happen? I mean it must be planed at some points. So uhm I assume that this interview was probably very well hold on the 20th just not at 9pm but at midday or so.

It's the "snogging would alleviate matters" quote. The interview took place presumably around the same time as the Dateline interview. And at that point, nothing had happened that would account for your mood swing theory. That's all I'm saying.

You know that I won't actuall buy it just because you say it, just like that. Aside this my theory isn: mood swing. Its a logical assuming that JKR didn't talk about actual events in her books but about an assuming build on Couric unbased questions, pretty unprepared for a reporter, don't you think?

Um, how so?

You said JKR didn't say R/Hr would snogg in OotP also she didn't say it did happen, priceless just what I'm saying. She didn't say it.

I personally believe she was trying to be polite to Couric, after Couric got the coupling wrong. She reacted rather strongly, IMO, to the suggestion of H/Hr, and I think she was trying to backpedal a bit and trying not to make Couric feel foolish. But I realize that you have a different opinion on these matters. That's just what makes the most sense to me.

IMO Couric doesn't seem to be the smartest reporter of all times or she is just not that much used to ask intelligent questions. Mind you this standard of this interview is pretty low alone for that I did burn it. JKR seemed much more anoyed and wrong at place. For example in this Albert Hall she appeared bit more comfortable or at Paxman but thats only my POV and not based on seeing the entier thing. Anyway JKR reacted strongly on this wild idea that Harry and Hermione could snogg in book5, remember thats what Couric did refer to in her questions earlier, this thinking is absurd. There wasn't enough building up for something like that yet, so it can count as kind of insult of JKR's writer skills. Eh, JKR was trying to make Couric feel foolish, if she didn't she had never turn it into a question what brought Couric in a rather bad situation and ended in stuttering arround.

I can quote you on that, right? *files information carefully away*

You may :rotfl:

Excuse me??? Would you mind telling me how a question ("Any snogging with Hermione?") that is one of a series of questions ("Is he going through puberty?" and "Zits, does he have zits?") that begins with the inquiry of "Can you just tell me basically what happens to Harry in this book?" is a question about GoF? You can argue that the "tension" part of JKR's answer refers to GoF (though that's still quite a reach), but I'm afraid there is no debating which book "this book" refers to.

Its based on GoF not refering to GoF. Says we read only book1 till book4 and try to guess what happens in book5. This question were refering only to OotP .

But you are not JKR, and I cannot fathom her stooping to that kind of trickery in an interview of all things. Her answer to this question and the tone in which it is given is perfectly consistent with canon and all her other interview quotes, particularly her incredulous "I can't believe some of you haven't worked it out" remark.

:lol: I didn't say I'm JKR I just make an example what JKR did in this interview, something she does always in her interviews thats why I do seriously still think H/Hr is going to be what she is writing.
You mean your interpretation of canon and all her other quotes are just as dodgy as that one, maybe a little bit less. Lets wait and see what she actuall going to write.

Amazed or annoyed?

I wrote: amazed

[GrangerGal]

Coincidences or rather clues? Take this one for instance:

Drooble's Best Blowing Gum can be: Gold bribe below St. Mungos

And one that could hardly be a coincidence:

Dangerous Dai LLwellyn Ward -- Serious Bites Coulde be: "Kreacher-induced injuries . . . Die . . . Sirius.



Dangerous Dai LLwellyn Ward -- Serious Bites - Where is there a K for Kreacher in this one? I am confused.

[mrs_bombadil]

Maybe I'm wrong but aren't interviews known weeks before they actually happen? I mean it must be planed at some points. So uhm I assume that this interview was probably very well hold on the 20th just not at 9pm but at midday or so.

It couldn't have been; they were showing clips from it to promote it prior to then. They had some footage on their morning show that day already.

I'm afraid connielane has described exactly how this show is produced. Even if an interview is "tape-delayed" it's presented as "I just spoke with so-and-so" on the air if the interview was conducted that recently.

[xray]

I'm not sure but JKR specialy said at one point kids younger as 10 shouldn't read this books at least not alone. I believe it was in a situation as a mother did complain that she hoped the next book would be less scary then book4That's odd considering that she anticipated the target audience to be around 9-12 years old. From the Diane Rehm show:
Diane Rehm: What age group are you actually aiming for, Jo?

JKR: When I'm writing I don't aim for any age group. I'm writing these books entirely for myself. And in fact before my British publisher Bloomsbury told me that they were going to market the books for 9 years and above I really had no idea. A vague idea obviously, I mean I was aware that they weren't for three year olds and that probably 19 year olds would be wanting to read other stuff although I've met quite a few 19 year olds since so that's a really nice thing. The optimum age I would say is 9 to up for these books.

That's optimum age, not minimum age.

xray

[Darynthe]

Dangerous Dai LLwellyn Ward -- Serious Bites - Where is there a K for Kreacher in this one? I am confused.

Sorry that wasn't clear at all, it's more like a reading into it than a complete anagram, as this:

Creature-Induced Injuries" floor with the "Dangerous Dai LLwellyn Ward -- Serious Bites" ...could be read as "Kreacher-induced injuries . . . Die . . . Sirius."

[GrangerGal]

Sorry that wasn't clear at all, it's more like a reading into it than a complete anagram, as this:

Creature-Induced Injuries" floor with the "Dangerous Dai LLwellyn Ward -- Serious Bites" ...could be read as "Kreacher-induced injuries . . . Die . . . Sirius."
Ohhhhh! GOT IT! LOL!

[Moonstruck]

Although I do agree with you Moonstruck, Han & Luke are both heros in SW, Han had his own journey and story in that universe, Rons however is being told to us through Harry, this goes back to the style J.K chooses to write in; SW is in "eye of god" mode we get to see what Han is up to when Luke is off doing other things, we don't get to see this in HP, even the movies have followed this same style.

I never said Luke wasn't the hero. He is. But Han is the other hero of the story. Luke is not the sole hero (which is what I'm getting here).

[GrangerGal]

I never said Luke wasn't the hero. He is. But Han is the other hero of the story. Luke is not the sole hero (which is what I'm getting here).
Well if you look at the stories, Harry and Luke are the main characters who have to find themselves. They are the ones who will ultimately face their own personal Dark Lord. Ron and Hans are not the ones who have to face and defeat the dark lord because that is not their fate.

[Miss ERB]

Haven't been here for a while, but a quick question that I just thought up...

Does everyone here want their opposite ship not to happen or dislike it simply because of cannon, or because they don't want to be wrong?

I was just thinking of this, and I figured, though I desperately want Harry and Hermione to get together, if I had never jumped into the debate threads, I don't think I would have cared much had it turned out R/Hr. I think the spark in me isn't that I dislike R/Hr, but that I don't want to be wrong.

Do you guys get what I'm saying here? Is your dislike for an opposing ship simply dislike or is it amplified by your own pride in not wanting to be wrong? I know what my answer is, I just didn't really realize it till now.

Just wondering...

Later Player


eh? No I dont really deeply care of I'm wrong( plus I dont really think I am: yes I know that was cocky:)

I just honestly dislike anything that is not H/G and R/Hr...I mean I dont dislike N/L shippings or anything like that.

I honestly think my ships will Happen...I'm like 99.9 percent sure with R/Hr and maybe 99.8 sure about H/G..I feel so cocky saying that though because right now their completely platonic..well harry towards Ginny is..Ginny may still have some non platonic feelings towards Harry.

[Moonstruck]

Well if you look at the stories, Harry and Luke are the main characters who have to find themselves. They are the ones who will ultimately face their own personal Dark Lord. Ron and Hans are not the ones who have to face and defeat the dark lord because that is not their fate.

No, Han just has to find out that there is more to life than money (which is what happens). He finds out that a cause like the Rebels is one worth fighting for.

In SW, Han's anti-hero statis is not defined by what he faces, it's defined by who he is. The anti-hero doesn't normally face the ultimate evil because the anti-hero blurs the line between good and evil.

[maeve]

It's not that I think the road to romantic bliss is marked out by bickering, it's just that I think that Jo's the kind of author who will demonstrate that romantic couples need to know they can handle being angry at each other. Not all people fight very often, and not all friends have fights, but all couples do at some point in time.

Good point. The only good thing about fighting is that it gets you to express a true opinion. Harry and Hermione do often share opinions, but Harry just as often agrees with Ron about SPEW or any number of Hermione's eccentricities. But he usually doesn't tell her his point of view. He tries to avoid the confrontation. And while that is a normal reaction, there is something to be said for Ron's honesty, whether it be a good or bad sentiment. Then again I'm a Heron, so I'm a bit biased ;).

[GrangerGal]

No, Han just has to find out that there is more to life than money (which is what happens). He finds out that a cause like the Rebels is one worth fighting for.

In SW, Han's anti-hero statis is not defined by what he faces, it's defined by who he is. The anti-hero doesn't normally face the ultimate evil because the anti-hero blurs the line between good and evil.
Usually an anti hero is still a main character in order to maintain that status. In Catch Me if You Can, the anti-hero is a crook but you still love him.

I guess hero would be the wrong word, protagonist would be better. Hans and Ron are not the main characters. They do have to overcome an obstacle (like a protagonist) but they are not the protagonist b/c they are not the main characters.

[Moonstruck]

Usually an anti hero is still a main character in order to maintain that status. In Catch Me if You Can, the anti-hero is a crook but you still love him.

I guess hero would be the wrong word, protagonist would be better. Hans and Ron are not the main characters. They do have to overcome an obstacle (like a protagonist) but they are not the protagonist b/c they are not the main characters.

In that case, the protagonist in SW is Anakin Skywalker, not Luke. Anakin has to overcome his demons in order to defeat the Dark Side, the obstacle.

[Sienna]

Angua9:
No, I am asking you to do a brief surface outline of the "H/Hr subplot." I asked the relevant questions -- what scenes and events? Connected how? With what narrative tension? That should be simple (and quick) to do for any subplot you see in the books. If you like, I will do an example for any subplot of your choosing (that I see in the books).

Ah. Ok. Well perhaps you can outline a summary of the R/Hr subplot as you see it and I can reciprocate with a summary for H/Hr (although they sometimes take longer than actual essays). An additional question I’d like to ask is how you see a R/hr romantic subplot feeding into the main plot – how would R/hr contribute/ affect Harry’s hero journey and his fight against Voldemort? (For me, this is ultimately the most important consideration). The thing is (and I know many would be surprised), I can actually conceive of the way a romantic R/Hr subplot could work but I am interested in your view of it.

No, I implied that the Couric interview statement all by itself was strong enough to outweigh all existing evidence supporting such a position.

Same thing.


In fact, if the Couric statement had been reversed, I would find it very difficult to believe that R/Hr will happen, despite the very large amount of evidence existing to support R/Hr. I am not capable of suspending my respect for Rowling's superior knowledge and authority to that extent.

I guess this is where we differ. The Couric statement was for me a fairly defining moment but for the opposite reasons. This is entirely my reading of the incident of course but I find it curious that Katie Couric became so flustered by JKR’s response. She is a professional interviewer – why would a ‘do you really think so?’ put her so off her game? Obviously she did think so, otherwise why would she ask the question?

If anything, I think JKR’s reaction demonstrated that there was something there to hide otherwise why react so strongly as to fluster Couric? Remember, Couric would have more information available to her to react to than we do viewing the interview from a rather clinical television screen. She would been reacting not only to JKR’s facial expression and words but also to the energy she felt from the author, the changes in the dynamic between them in that instance etc. I realise this sounds quite esoteric, but we all know that as humans we pick up on more signals than just the very obvious. There would have been a change of energy between them (and quite a big one methinks for Couric to have lost her hold on the interview).

In addition, I find it hard to believe that a professional journo like Couric would forget one simple rule of Journalism – always follow up. JKR clearly did not give her a definitive answer despite asking ‘do you really think so?’.

Let me put it to you this way – If JKR was in front of us now and asked us this same question – Angua, Sienna, H/Hr … do you really think so? But has that answered our question of which she is writing? Of course not! All it has done is solidified that there are opposing interpretations of the narrative, nothing more. Other than the platonic quote (for which alternative interperations also exist), no other comment she has ever made on the shipping debate has been definitive in any way.

Suggesting to me that ‘do you really think so’ definitively means ‘of course not’ does nothing more than prove that you hold a different opinion than me. It does not prove that either one of us are any more or less able to decipher JKR’s motivations.

In addition, it is not an alien technique… we’ve seen in many times from politicians (and even Dumbledore himself in PoA). The only way in which we differ Angua (besides the obvious) is that I read JKR’s body language in that interview differently to you. There are valid arguments I believe to be made on both sides. The only thing I ask is that people not be so quick to believe they can confidently vouch for the inner workings of JKR’s mind. In my opinion, canon evidence will always win out over JKR interviews until such time as I am proved wrong in the narrative. When faced between two seemingly conflicting positions, I will always go with what she is writing and not what she is saying (especially when I feel I can make a fairly coherent argument for how what she is saying actually fits in with what I see her writing).

(Although this response is already very long, I feel I need to make it clear that I do understand why people think of the Couric interview is a definitive answer. 'Do you really think so?' often does mean, 'what the h*ll, where'd you get that from?[/b]. If not for the fact that I see strong evidence for the development of H/Hr, I would be arguing for you and not against you.)

It is my opinion. The amazement is not that anyone could hold an alternative viewpoint to mine, but -- quite frankly -- that they could hold an alternative viewpoint, apparently, to the creator of the series. Like I said, I would not be able to continue believing that the ship I see in canon would happen if JKR reacted in that manner to it. I understand that you and hundreds/thousands/whatever of your shipmates are able to make that leap, but I could not.

I think the key word here is apparently. I am confident enough that my interpretation of the Couric interview holds enough water to be viable. Until such time as I get either a definitive answer from JKR in an interview (ala D/Hr) or H/Hr is resolved in canon in a way contrary to that which I hypothesise, I will continue to make an argument for the subplot I see developing.

It was also part of an explanation, which Moonstruck requested, of why I and my like-minded friends were so elated about the interview, despite the fact that it did not lead us to expect R/Hr snogging in Book 5.

For my part, I understand why R/Hr shippers were elated (believe me, if the shoe were on the other foot, many H/Hr shippers would be arguing the same thing). I do, however, think it premature.

JordanL:
Sienna, I think I like you. We seem to think a lot alike...

Cheers Jordan :) … likewise.

Sienna

[terese36]

When did Star Wars come up? I know there's some similarities with it and Harry Potter, but I thought this was a love thread. Lets' get back to the subject and stop comparing Luke Skywalker with Harry or whatever. Unless Star Wras has anything to do with the love lives of Hp characters, we should stop discussing it. Anyway, I really hope Half-Blood Prince comes out soon so I can see if R/Hr, H/L, and N/G, get together.

[FredFancier]

But you can't say that Han=Ron just by that because the roles of those two are extremely different. Show me a moment where Han becomes the sidekick of Luke?
uh how about the entire plot? Luke is the hero, the protagonist, the one we see most often, Han backs him up and occasionally does better.
Remember him running off after stormtroopers (what was that he yelled? "Get back to the ship!" A sidekick? Giving orders? How rude!).
What do you have against sidekicks? 1) Get back to the ship, sure its an "order" one that just happens to be for the good of others. Also Ron ordered malfoy to shove off. I guess if sidekicks cant give orders then Ron is just as much as a main character as harry. That is, unless you decide to think better of sidekicks or atleast admit that sidekicks can give orders.
[qiote]You know, I feel much more compassion for Harmonians. They take such a beating from so many people so often....[/quote]
that goes both way, Harmonians get such a beating from herons, and herons also get such a beating from harmonians. I believe it was this forum when I had worked really hard on something (small essayish thing) and then someone said it was poorly written and not from an intelligent perspective. I respect Harmonians, I just dont agree with them, and I believe that they respect us too, just not agree with us.
I think we've never seen both Hermione and Harry get angry at each other and have a true fight.
Yes, but we have seen Harry screaming in her face, wanting to shake her, and hermione looking scared. IMHO a good healthy fight where both yell is healthier then someone scaring someone else.
Really? I'd think the sheer quantity of Heron's would prevent such a thing from happenning.
1) there used to be more harmonians and 2) before someone says "herons werent ever willing to listen to harmonians so thats why they left" or something of the sort - just drop it, we're not in 3rd grade (otherwise I would continue discussing this), and the harmonians on this thread are very intelligent and if they do get 'such a beating' it'll bite the heron(s) who gave the 'beating' in the butt.

With the whole star wars thing- Starwars does not = harry potter. If the plot was the same, yes it may be better evidence shipwise- but its not. We can only speculate and point out the coincidence we notice in comparison with starwars, and the harry potter series.

[JordanL]

to me... even though they aren't really related... Harry and Hermione act like brother and sister... it is just how they are around each other. Hermione and Harry do not get in many fights... but when they do, I don't think Hermione can handle them well...

Really? Ron and Hermione act more like me and my siblings, but that's just me.

Why do you say that Harry wouldn't like Hermione and Ron getting together... IMO, I believe he can't wait for these two to get together so they would stop bickering... i don't think it would stop. But like Herons, I believe Harry also thinks it is obvious these two like each other...

I don't think it would break up the friendship at all.

Hmmm... well, from my personal experience, I very much doubt Harry, if he were a real person, would want the two to get together just to stop bickering.

Thats not Ron's purpose in the books. Hermione is the brains, the thinker.

Oh, NOW you want to talk the literrary functions. I suggest you drop that angle, because it encourages other Harmonians to attack from that angle, and that is an angle which is very much not Heron.

[Angua9]

She also said we should know that Abenforth was the bartender in the Hog's head. She thought it was obvious if you're careful, but we know it was not at all obvious.
She didn't say it was obvious. She said "Ooh - you are getting good."

Why is the barman of the Hog’s Head vaguely familiar to Harry? Is he Dumbledore’s brother?

Ooh—you are getting good. Why do you think that it is Aberforth? [Audience member: Various clues. He smells of goats and he looks a bit like Dumbledore]. [b]I was quite proud of that clue.[/b] That is all that I am going to say. [Laughter]. Well yes, obviously. I like the goat clue—I sniggered to myself about that one.

My understanding of this quote is that she thought it was quite difficult to guess the Aberforth thing. She is impressed that someone did. When she says she was "quite proud" of that clue, I take that to mean it was exceedingly subtle, not obvious.

When she used the word "obviously," I took that to mean that she had already given it away by "you are getting good" and "I was quite proud of that clue."

Ah. Ok. Well perhaps you can outline a summary of the R/Hr subplot as you see it and I can reciprocate with a summary for H/Hr (although they sometimes take longer than actual essays). An additional question I’d like to ask is how you see a R/hr romantic subplot feeding into the main plot – how would R/hr contribute/ affect Harry’s hero journey and his fight against Voldemort? (For me, this is ultimately the most important consideration). The thing is (and I know many would be surprised), I can actually conceive of the way a romantic R/Hr subplot could work but I am interested in your view of it.
*sigh* I was hoping you'd choose a shorter, easier subplot like "house-elves." But I guess this is more suitable. I'll get it done as soon as I can.

I guess this is where we differ. The Couric statement was for me a fairly defining moment but for the opposite reasons. This is entirely my reading of the incident of course but I find it curious that Katie Couric became so flustered by JKR’s response. She is a professional interviewer – why would a ‘do you really think so?’ put her so off her game? Obviously she did think so, otherwise why would she ask the question?
Couric seemed to be embarrassed for having asked a stupid question that made her interviewee (a very famous ratings-raising person not easy to get an interview with) grimace. From the interview in general, I suspect that Couric had not read all the books -- maybe not any of them -- or that she didn't remember them very well, and that she didn't want to make that fact obvious to JKR or to the HP-loving audience. Thus her quick retreat and cover-up on the subject of snogging.

In addition, I find it hard to believe that a professional journo like Couric would forget one simple rule of Journalism – always follow up. JKR clearly did not give her a definitive answer despite asking ‘do you really think so?’.
She was following an even simpler rule of celebrity puff journalism -- kiss up to the subject. If they make faces and jerk their heads back at your question, change the subject and lighten the tension quickly!

Let me put it to you this way – If JKR was in front of us now and asked us this same question – Angua, Sienna, H/Hr … do you really think so?
She did more than say "do you think so?" Let me put your hypothetical into words:


Angua: Can you tell me about Book 6? Any snogging with Ron and Hermione?

JKR: *makes face* Hermione and Ron? Do you think so?

Angua: Ummmmm... well, yeah, actually, I --

JKR: Harry and Hermione... *nods and smiles* ...have... there's more tension there.

Angua: *jaw drops as years of analysis crumble into bits around her*

That's how I would respond.

In my opinion, canon evidence will always win out over JKR interviews until such time as I am proved wrong in the narrative. When faced between two seemingly conflicting positions, I will always go with what she is writing and not what she is saying (especially when I feel I can make a fairly coherent argument for how what she is saying actually fits in with what I see her writing).
I don't. I can't even begin to give MY analysis of canon more credence than JKR's -- no matter what kind of "coherent argument" I might be able to make.


I thought from my analysis of canon that Hermione was older than Harry and Ron. When JKR approved a timeline that showed Hermione younger than Harry and Ron, I accepted it immediately. Even though I could have made an argument that this wasn't JKR's own words. Even though I could have made the arguement that she isn't very good at maths (especially ages) and might not even have noticed that particular date. I simply couldn't put my own interpretation over her APPARENT word.

I thought from my analysis of canon that Hagrid was very likely to die in about the fifth book. I thought that for YEARS and had a lot of reasoning, foreshadowing, etc. to support it. It was intimately tied to many of my then ideas about how the series might play out. Then someone brought to my attention that JKR had said Hagrid would be in all the books. I didn't cling to my ideas, saying, "ah, well, he might be a ghost," or look for some other way to reconcile her APPARENT statement to my ideas. I didn't even try. I simply abandoned my old ideas and formed new ones.

When the title for Book 6 first came out, I thought the "Half-Blood Prince" was very likely to be Tom Riddle. I immediately started forming theories and hypotheses, tying it into preexisting hints from canon, etc. I was very emotionally attached to these ideas. Then, three days later, Jo said "it's not Harry or Voldemort." A lot of people, including people whose opinion I respect, argued that she might be being tricky about the Tom Riddle vs. Voldemort thing, but I simply couldn't cling to that hope. I immediately took her for what she SEEMED to saying, and abandoned all my newly-formed theories. And we found out a couple of days later that I was right to do so.


I *can't* put my own interpretations of canon above even a hint from J.K. Rowling. To do so would feel like hubris to me; I would feel that I was letting my own preferences bias my thinking. If JKR says something, I take her apparent meaning, as best as I can understand it, as the official word. Anything else feels like intellectually dishonest wishful thinking to me.

I understand that there are thousands of people who feel otherwise. There are people quite comfortable arguing that Sirius is still alive or might come back to life, that Snape is a vampire after all, that Draco and Hermione will get together after Hogwarts, that Dumbledore is really a bad guy, or that Hermione's parents will play an important role in the books. They have all sorts of clever arguments as to why JKR didn't mean what it seems like she meant and her statement should actually be interpreted in a different way.

To each his own, but I couldn't do that. It just seems like special pleading and stubbornness to me. All my theories must be compatible both with canon and with the most straightforward interpretation of everything J.K. Rowling has ever said. And they are.

[yxs]

Do you guys get what I'm saying here? Is your dislike for an opposing ship simply dislike or is it amplified by your own pride in not wanting to be wrong? I know what my answer is, I just didn't really realize it till now.



Oh, I admit... I can be wrong, doesn't really bother me. As I haven't been into shipping that much really.
And I probably am wrong... while still hoping a little that H/Hr will happen.
But for some reason, I stopped caring... lol.
Whatever happens in canon, in Rowling's books is ok for me.
Ron is finally a nice guy and him and Hermione together at school is cute.

Maybe all this has something to do with the fact that I just stumbled upon a famous H/Hr fanfiction called Paradigm of Uncertainty... and have been reading it and its sequels for past few days without being able to leave the computer often, lol.
Curiosity just got the best of me. I thought I would never read fanfic and would only stay with canon, but I was just very tempted cause people kept saying this story is the Bible of Harmony... and kept praising it. I just had to see what was so good about it. And well... wow!
I'd recommend this fic to everyone who would never picture Harry/Hermione happen or who would like to understand it... cause in this story it happens perfectly how it would happen with canon Harry/Hermione who would be 27 years old. And I'd just recommend it to anyone... no matter what you ship, just all H Potter fans, because it's quite an amazing piece of fantasy literature for a fanfic writer with a plot that blows you away and characters who stay so amazingly IN character, as if the writer had access to Rowling's head and knows how she would picture adult Harry and Hermione.
Frankly, I am impressed... and it takes a lot to impress me.

Right now I don't even care who ends up with whom in canon, cause there's always gonna be POU. And it made me fall totally in love with Harmony.
For those who doubt there can be any sexual tension between Harry and Hermione... well, read this! :wow:

[JordanL]

Angua: *jaw drops as years of analysis crumble into bits around her*

I'd just like to note that analysis cannot predict anything, only analyze what we already know. You are not analyzing, you are fact checking and weighing evidence, as is anyone in this debate. An analysis does not come to a conclusion on the story on until the story is done... or in other words, in an analysis you are not allowed to extend the text beyond the scope of its writing, which you must do in this case.

That's the way thesis papers work.

[Moonstruck]

Couric seemed to be embarrassed for having asked a stupid question that made her interviewee (a very famous ratings-raising person not easy to get an interview with) grimace. From the interview in general, I suspect that Couric had not read all the books -- maybe not any of them -- or that she didn't remember them very well, and that she didn't want to make that fact obvious to JKR or to the HP-loving audience. Thus her quick retreat and cover-up on the subject of snogging.

Sorry, but journalists always research their topic of an interview. Even Couric should have gotten that, despite being a soft journalist. If Couric cannot do some thing as basic as research, then I really question whether she should be interviewing people period.

[mrs_bombadil]

Sorry, but journalists always research their topic of an interview. Even Couric should have gotten that, despite being a soft journalist. If Couric cannot do some thing as basic as research, then I really question whether she should be interviewing people period.

But a "puff piece" has different rules and standards.

Puff piece - A news story with editorialised, complimentary statements.

http://www.journalism.co.uk/glossary.shtml

They are, by nature, intended to make the subject look good. They are not intended to be objective nor aggressive.

The subject sometimes insists on a contract and is allowed to put some things off limits or even have limited editorial control over what airs or is printed. I am NOT saying Rowling did this but I am saying that puff pieces follow different standards.

Now, this "followup requirement" is missing from a good many of the Q&A's that provide us with information. Are you going to disregard any and all of her quotes that don't fall under the umbrella you've put up?

ETA: And, if you have any doubt about this being a puff piece, look at these few samples of the narration that was placed in the finish segment.

Clearly, I felt it was my mission to get Rowling to start spilling her Bertie Botts Beans.

But of course, being a skilled journalist, I was able to craft my questions so carefully, she had no choice but to blab.
Couric: “Can you just tell me basically what happens to Harry in this book? That’s a specific question.”
Rowling: “Yeah, that was very scalpel-sharp. He has a really hard time in this book, I would say.”

In Europe, she’s more recognizable than she is in the United States, and there are times when Rowling wishes she could fashion one of those invisibility cloaks.

“Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix” rises from the ashes at a whopping 896 pages. But even before its release, book five has been worth its weight in Gringotts’ gold, setting records for the largest pre-ordered book in history.

Couric even mocks herself here.

[GilyAnn]

Haven't been here for a while, but a quick question that I just thought up...

Does everyone here want their opposite ship not to happen or dislike it simply because of cannon, or because they don't want to be wrong?

I was just thinking of this, and I figured, though I desperately want Harry and Hermione to get together, if I had never jumped into the debate threads, I don't think I would have cared much had it turned out R/Hr. I think the spark in me isn't that I dislike R/Hr, but that I don't want to be wrong.

Do you guys get what I'm saying here? Is your dislike for an opposing ship simply dislike or is it amplified by your own pride in not wanting to be wrong? I know what my answer is, I just didn't really realize it till now.

Just wondering...

Later Player

Excellent question playmaker and if you don't mind I would like to have a go at it. I think it's an excellent thought.

Even if I wouldn't be on the Debate threads I would still have a problem with H/Hr. From canon JKR has made me see how unsuited are H/Hr in the romantic arena. They are great friends but they are clearly to me not suited for each other. Furthermore I see that they are obviously not interested in each other and they don't want to be romanticaly involved. Hermione has no problem helping Harry to get his dream date, she feels happy with him and sad when the date fails. She has no jealousy and no regrets that Harry doesn't show any signs to fancy her. Harry also is happy for Hermione when she dances with Krum when she enjoys herself and he understand that Hermione likes Ron and not him.

I like their friendship the way it is and I believe that with her writting JKR has put on the base to show us how H/Hr are not suited. So my problem has nothing to do with debating issue but more in the way JKR has written their relationship which shows that H/Hr is not the route she's headed at. Off course I have no problem admitting that I do believe that H/G are more suited and has more evidence so a hint bit of pride will always have a contribution on the issue. :p

Gily Ann

ETA:
After my knowledge her daughter didn't read all books, she did read till book4 but not 5 and as much I know with JKR together because how old is her daughter? 8? She is bit too young to read them alone.

I'm not sure but JKR specialy said at one point kids younger as 10 shouldn't read this books at least not alone. I believe it was in a situation as a mother did complain that she hoped the next book would be less scary then book4

Actually JKR's daughter has read all the books. In the last chat she was asked which book was her daughter's favorite:

ashvital: Which of your books does your daughter like best?
JK Rowling replies -> It would be between Goblet of Fire and Order of the Phoenix. She likes ACTION!

JKR's daughter if I'm not mistaken it's 10 because she's I believe a year older than my daughter.

[Moonstruck]

But a "puff piece" has different rules and standards.

Puff piece - A news story with editorialised, complimentary statements.

http://www.journalism.co.uk/glossary.shtml

They are, by nature, intended to make the subject look good. They are not intended to be objective nor aggressive.

The subject sometimes insists on a contract and is allowed to put some things off limits or even have limited editorial control over what airs or is printed. I am NOT saying Rowling did this but I am saying that puff pieces follow different standards.

But Couric would have had to research her topic. No contract says that you cannot research for an interview (if a journalist can't, how can they ask questions? You must research in order to know what questions you are going to ask). Couric had four books to go by, one that Herons always claim show R/Hr. She also likely had very limited info on OOTP, mainly generalized stuff (no plot points).

Now, this "followup requirement" is missing from a good many of the Q&A's that provide us with information. Are you going to disregard any and all of her quotes that don't fall under the umbrella you've put up?

Depends on the format. Some of those Q&A's had someone there who asked questions in addition to the kids' ones. Ones like a chat you can't ask follow up questions. But, as I'm studing to by a journalist, I would likely not take the answer at face value.

I don't disregard quotes. I don't take them at face value. I will accept that they are there. I just won't rely on a quote(s) while waiting for the next book. Doing so may get my hopes up for thinking something's going to happen, when in reality, she was talking about the final book.

ETA: And, if you have any doubt about this being a puff piece, look at these few samples of the narration that was placed in the finish segment.

Who said it wasn't a puff piece? I didn't.

[Sienna]

Angua – I look forward to reading your summary and will start working on mine, methinks.

She did more than say "do you think so?" Let me put your hypothetical into words:
Angua: Can you tell me about Book 6? Any snogging with Ron and Hermione?

JKR: *makes face* Hermione and Ron? Do you think so?

Angua: Ummmmm... well, yeah, actually, I --

JKR: Harry and Hermione... *nods and smiles* ...have... there's more tension there.

Angua: *jaw drops as years of analysis crumble into bits around her*

That's how I would respond.

This is a good exercise I think, so I’d like to take it a bit further. If I were Couric, the interview would have gone a bit more like this:

Sienna: Can you tell me about Book 6? Any snogging with Harry and Hermione?

JKR: *makes face* Hermione and Harry? Do you think so?

Sienna: Well yes I do actually… there does seem to be something there.

JKR: Ron and Hermione … have … there’s more tension there.

Sienna: Really? What do you mean by tension? Are Ron and Hermione going to be romantically involved then?

JKR: I would think the answer was obvious by now

Sienna: So the answer is yes.

JKR: I can’t really tell you that can I? That would be giving too much away.

Sienna: Well, if it’s really obvious then how can you be giving anything away?

JKR: Well, I quite enjoy the arguments.

Sienna: Ah, so are you saying you enjoy arguments for Harry and Hermione getting together even though it is not going to happen?

JKR: *shifts uncomfortably* … well, I enjoy all the arguments I read on the web. There are some very smart people out there. They don’t miss a thing … they keep me on my toes.

Sienna: Look, we’re getting a bit off topic. Are Ron and Hermione going to be romantically involved, yes or no

(very tempted to add Prime Minister to the end of that question)

JKR: I’m not saying, but surely you’ve had enough clues by now.

Sienna: The clues suggest to me a deepening relationship between Harry and Hermione.

JKR: Well, they are … very … platonic friends. Harry needs Hermione badly.

Sienna: How can you be very platonic? Are they brother and sister? How does he need her? What part will she have to play in the following books?

JKR: Look … *frowns irritatedly*… I really think you’re being a bit pushy here. I don’t want to spoil the surprise.

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious…

About now, I would think JKR would walk out and most of the Harry Potter fandom would blacklist me for being mean to their favourite author… ;)

My point, I guess, is that when someone is not answering a question directly, then they are not answering a question directly.

I thought from my analysis of canon that Hermione was older than Harry and Ron. When JKR approved a timeline that showed Hermione younger than Harry and Ron, I accepted it immediately. Even though I could have made an argument that this wasn't JKR's own words. Even though I could have made the arguement that she isn't very good at maths (especially ages) and might not even have noticed that particular date. I simply couldn't put my own interpretation over her APPARENT word.

JKR’s statements on shipping have never been as clear cut as this… or as this:

I thought from my analysis of canon that Hagrid was very likely to die in about the fifth book. I thought that for YEARS and had a lot of reasoning, foreshadowing, etc. to support it. It was intimately tied to many of my then ideas about how the series might play out. Then someone brought to my attention that JKR had said Hagrid would be in all the books.

Or as this:

When the title for Book 6 first came out, I thought the "Half-Blood Prince" was very likely to be Tom Riddle. I immediately started forming theories and hypotheses, tying it into preexisting hints from canon, etc. I was very emotionally attached to these ideas. Then, three days later, Jo said "it's not Harry or Voldemort."

If she had, the shipping wars would have been long dead and I would have been forming Harry/ Hermione sibling theories instead (possibly … who knows).

I *can't* put my own interpretations of canon above even a hint from J.K. Rowling. To do so would feel like hubris to me; I would feel that I was letting my own preferences bias my thinking. If JKR says something, I take her apparent meaning, as best as I can understand it, as the official word. Anything else feels like intellectually dishonest wishful thinking to me.

I do understand what you are saying here and I take your point. However, I still believe enough evidence exists to suggest that there is something she is not telling us with regards to the trio's relationship. She has evaded directly answering the question too many times for me to not believe that what I see in canon holds some water.

There are people quite comfortable arguing that Sirius is still alive or might come back to life, that Snape is a vampire after all, that Draco and Hermione will get together after Hogwarts, that Dumbledore is really a bad guy, or that Hermione's parents will play an important role in the books.

I think it unfair that you compare H/Hr theories with theories such as Snape is a Vampire which have, at most, one minor canon moment to back them up.

Sienna

[Moonstruck]

This is a good exercise I think, so I’d like to take it a bit further. If I were Couric, the interview would have gone a bit more like this:
Sienna: Can you tell me about Book 6? Any snogging with Harry and Hermione?
JKR: *makes face* Hermione and Harry? Do you think so?
Sienna: Well yes I do actually… there does seem to be something there.
JKR: Ron and Hermione … have … there’s more tension there.
Sienna: Really? What do you mean by tension? Are Ron and Hermione going to be romantically involved then?
JKR: I would think the answer was obvious by now
Sienna: So the answer is yes.
JKR: I can’t really tell you that can I? That would be giving too much away.
Sienna: Well, if it’s really obvious then how can you be giving anything away?
JKR: Well, I quite enjoy the arguments.
Sienna: Ah, so are you saying you enjoy arguments for Harry and Hermione getting together even though it is not going to happen?
JKR: *shifts uncomfortably* … well, I enjoy all the arguments I read on the web. There are some very smart people out there. They don’t miss a thing … they keep me on my toes.
Sienna: Look, we’re getting a bit off topic. Are Ron and Hermione going to be romantically involved, yes or no
(very tempted to add Prime Minister to the end of that question)
JKR: I’m not saying, but surely you’ve had enough clues by now.
Sienna: The clues suggest to me a deepening relationship between Harry and Hermione.
JKR: Well, they are … very … platonic friends. Harry needs Hermione badly.
Sienna: How can you be very platonic? How does he need her? What part will she have to play in the following books?
JKR: Look … *frowns irritatedly*… I really think you’re being a bit pushy here. I don’t want to spoil the surprise.
Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious…
About now, I would think JKR would walk out and most of the Harry Potter fandom would blacklist me for being mean to their favourite author… ;)
My point, I guess, is that when someone is not answering a question directly, then they are not answering a question directly.

You got plans to be a journalist, Sienna! :D Like to see how you do in a real interview! :D

[mrs_bombadil]

But Couric would have had to research her topic. No contract says that you cannot research for an interview (if a journalist can't, how can they ask questions? You must research in order to know what questions you are going to ask). Couric had four books to go by, one that Herons always claim show R/Hr. She also likely had very limited info on OOTP, mainly generalized stuff (no plot points).

I have no doubt she did some research but I don't know what it involved. I have no doubt for all the puff pieces she's done, she also has assistants who are assigned certain parts who feed her what she supposedly needs to know.

The questions were certainly of a more general nature...they didn't seem to require actual reading of the books; now, should she have done so? Perhaps...it shouldn't change the validity of what Rowling offers on her own about Ron and Hermione. I realize many of you think she was feinting though. :sigh:

Anyway, I was mostly just revisiting the "followup question" line of debate.

[Angua9]

I'd just like to note that analysis cannot predict anything, only analyze what we already know. You are not analyzing, you are fact checking and weighing evidence, as is anyone in this debate. An analysis does not come to a conclusion on the story on until the story is done... or in other words, in an analysis you are not allowed to extend the text beyond the scope of its writing, which you must do in this case.
An analysis of the existing is a preliminary step before forming a hypothesis for the forthcoming. Analysis is very useful in predicting.

Sorry, but journalists always research their topic of an interview. Even Couric should have gotten that, despite being a soft journalist. If Couric cannot do some thing as basic as research, then I really question whether she should be interviewing people period.
I agree that we usually get a lot more and better information from interviewers who know the books thoroughly (:love: Lizo and Stephen Fry), but Katie Couric has certain interviewing skills. She is generally thought to excel at making the subject feel comfortable talking about personal subjects (which Jo did, in this interview). However, in this case we benefited from her cluelessness -- she blundered into getting Jo to make a more definite statement on trio shipping than she had since 2000.

Anyway, we get a lot of our best JKR answers from cute little kids, not qualified journalists. :)

[Moonstruck]

I agree that we usually get a lot more and better information from interviewers who know the books thoroughly (:love: Lizo and Stephen Fry), but Katie Couric has certain interviewing skills. She is generally thought to excel at making the subject feel comfortable talking about personal subjects (which Jo did, in this interview). However, in this case we benefited from her cluelessness -- she blundered into getting Jo to make a more definite statement on trio shipping than she had since 2000.

Anyway, we get a lot of our best JKR answers from cute little kids, not qualified journalists. :)

And if Couric had followed up on JK's answer, you may have had comfirmation on R/Hr or you may would have found that JK was once again being tricky in her answer.

Is the question "So does that mean Ron and Hermione going to get together" so scary of a question that journalists need to spare JK from ever answering it?

[mrs_bombadil]

And if Couric had followed up on JK's answer, you may have had comfirmation on R/Hr or you may would have found that JK was once again being tricky in her answer.

Is the question "So does that mean Ron and Hermione going to get together" so scary of a question that journalists need to spare JK from ever answering it?

Well, by then they were on to shagging (with KC trying to show her cool use of Brit slang) which JKR most definitely won't talk about. Plus, the interview was edited at that point so who knows for sure what KC did or did not say then. :evil: j.k.

[Moonstruck]

Well, by then they were on to shagging (with KC trying to show her cool use of Brit slang) which JKR most definitely won't talk about. Plus, the interview was edited at that point so who knows what KC said for sure at that point. :evil: j.k.

True. I like live interviews the most. :)

[The Leprechaun]

Also, were you trying to suggest that JKR's responses in the interview have any relation to the pre-release leaks? Because the interview was not taped that day it simply aired that day.

Just to add on to this, Katie Couric has interviews in the morning. She was and still is on a LIVE morning show. It was June 20, 2003, there is no doubt about that. Otherwise, there probably be a different date on it, just like the CoS interview which is done in Feburary despite being released in April.

[rjade829]

This is a good exercise I think, so I’d like to take it a bit further. If I were Couric, the interview would have gone a bit more like this:

Sienna: Can you tell me about Book 6? Any snogging with Harry and Hermione?

JKR: *makes face* Hermione and Harry? Do you think so?

Sienna: Well yes I do actually… there does seem to be something there.

JKR: Ron and Hermione … have … there’s more tension there.

Sienna: Really? What do you mean by tension? Are Ron and Hermione going to be romantically involved then?

JKR: I would think the answer was obvious by now

Sienna: So the answer is yes.

JKR: I can’t really tell you that can I? That would be giving too much away.

Sienna: Well, if it’s really obvious then how can you be giving anything away?

JKR: Well, I quite enjoy the arguments.

Sienna: Ah, so are you saying you enjoy arguments for Harry and Hermione getting together even though it is not going to happen?

JKR: *shifts uncomfortably* … well, I enjoy all the arguments I read on the web. There are some very smart people out there. They don’t miss a thing … they keep me on my toes.

Sienna: Look, we’re getting a bit off topic. Are Ron and Hermione going to be romantically involved, yes or no

(very tempted to add Prime Minister to the end of that question)

JKR: I’m not saying, but surely you’ve had enough clues by now.

Sienna: The clues suggest to me a deepening relationship between Harry and Hermione.

JKR: Well, they are … very … platonic friends. Harry needs Hermione badly.

Sienna: How can you be very platonic? Are they brother and sister? How does he need her? What part will she have to play in the following books?

JKR: Look … *frowns irritatedly*… I really think you’re being a bit pushy here. I don’t want to spoil the surprise.

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious…

About now, I would think JKR would walk out and most of the Harry Potter fandom would blacklist me for being mean to their favourite author… ;)

:rotfl: :rotfl:

"very tempted to add Prime Minister to the end of that question"

:lol:

[Hus]

hi room look just asking why does everyone go on about jkr interviews she give nothing away in them

heres some cannon for you all
Well, I quite enjoy the arguments

she likes it when a group of us get on a forum like this and have arguments/debate about wich ship will sail.

for me personaly she can enjoy her interview i dont want to hear them anymore they tell us nothing at all. they leave us with more qeustions than answers.

for me go h/hr and next interview all i want is a date

[The Leprechaun]

After my knowledge her daughter didn't read all books, she did read till book4 but not 5 and as much I know with JKR together because how old is her daughter? 8? She is bit too young to read them alone.

I'm not sure but JKR specialy said at one point kids younger as 10 shouldn't read this books at least not alone. I believe it was in a situation as a mother did complain that she hoped the next book would be less scary then book4

JKR has suggested 8 should be the earliest that they are read to a child, but that doesn't mean many younger children have read or been read much or all of the series.

Haven't been here for a while, but a quick question that I just thought up...

Does everyone here want their opposite ship not to happen or dislike it simply because of cannon, or because they don't want to be wrong?

I was just thinking of this, and I figured, though I desperately want Harry and Hermione to get together, if I had never jumped into the debate threads, I don't think I would have cared much had it turned out R/Hr. I think the spark in me isn't that I dislike R/Hr, but that I don't want to be wrong.

Do you guys get what I'm saying here? Is your dislike for an opposing ship simply dislike or is it amplified by your own pride in not wanting to be wrong? I know what my answer is, I just didn't really realize it till now.

Just wondering...

Later Player

I don't see it happening, but (since JKR is a good writer) if it is written well I could care less if my ship (Heron by the way) didn't sail (don't get me wrong, I like my ship, but shipping isn't the important part of the story and I refuse to let it ruin the books for me, shipping is just fun). When I came here I was immensely surprised that there was those who didn't sail Heron and such a huge polarization, and it seems like it may be growing slowly. I guess I never really attempted to see the future in these books, but I am realizing that it isn't as easy as thought (not that I'm backing down).

I hope this answers your question.

[mrs_bombadil]

hi room look just asking why does everyone go on about jkr interviews she give nothing away in them

heres some cannon for you all


she likes it when a group of us get on a forum like this and have arguments/debate about wich ship will sail.

for me personaly she can enjoy her interview i dont want to hear them anymore they tell us nothing at all. they leave us with more qeustions than answers.

for me go h/hr and next interview all i want is a date

But that's my point, either you look at what she says, ALL of it, and try to find out what may be useful about it, or you ignore it all. :)

However, if you want to talk about something else, that's great! How about you present an essay, or an argument, or even a scene that you would like to open up for discussion. ;)

[The Leprechaun]

Another question, though:
How many here are willing to go down with their ships? Are there people here who will ship despite of what JKR writes?

I'll jump ship. I may not entirely like it, but I'll be reasonable. Shipping isn't the reason I like these books, I like them because they are truly great books.

[yxs]

Angua – I look forward to reading your summary and will start working on mine, methinks.



This is a good exercise I think, so I’d like to take it a bit further. If I were Couric, the interview would have gone a bit more like this:

Sienna: Can you tell me about Book 6? Any snogging with Harry and Hermione?

JKR: *makes face* Hermione and Harry? Do you think so?

Sienna: Well yes I do actually… there does seem to be something there.

JKR: Ron and Hermione … have … there’s more tension there.

Sienna: Really? What do you mean by tension? Are Ron and Hermione going to be romantically involved then?

JKR: I would think the answer was obvious by now

Sienna: So the answer is yes.

JKR: I can’t really tell you that can I? That would be giving too much away.

Sienna: Well, if it’s really obvious then how can you be giving anything away?

JKR: Well, I quite enjoy the arguments.

Sienna: Ah, so are you saying you enjoy arguments for Harry and Hermione getting together even though it is not going to happen?

JKR: *shifts uncomfortably* … well, I enjoy all the arguments I read on the web. There are some very smart people out there. They don’t miss a thing … they keep me on my toes.

Sienna: Look, we’re getting a bit off topic. Are Ron and Hermione going to be romantically involved, yes or no

(very tempted to add Prime Minister to the end of that question)

JKR: I’m not saying, but surely you’ve had enough clues by now.

Sienna: The clues suggest to me a deepening relationship between Harry and Hermione.

JKR: Well, they are … very … platonic friends. Harry needs Hermione badly.

Sienna: How can you be very platonic? Are they brother and sister? How does he need her? What part will she have to play in the following books?

JKR: Look … *frowns irritatedly*… I really think you’re being a bit pushy here. I don’t want to spoil the surprise.

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious…

About now, I would think JKR would walk out and most of the Harry Potter fandom would blacklist me for being mean to their favourite author… ;)




Lol... this was good

[Hus]

well new topic jkr said harry would be getting kissed next book by more than one person.

so 2 people
2 kisses

who are they ?

well i see only 3 people harmione ginny or luna

i think its ginny first then he will realise he loves harmione and fall for her what do u lot think ?

[The Leprechaun]

Sienna, let me just say that this is viewed as a kids book and most reporters that are engaging in a publicity conversation will probably refrain from being to pushy as that would make you look bad and while you might get more answers you would then shred some of the mystery. It's Today (something geared to getting you up in the morning being reasonably happy), not Hardball (geared to getting answers from the top political players in the country).

well new topic jkr said harry would be getting kissed next book by more than one person.

so 2 people
2 kisses

who are they ?

well i see only 3 people harmione ginny or luna

i think its ginny first then he will realise he loves harmione and fall for her what do u lot think ?

This doesn't state that, it says that Harry will be getting some kisses, but she won't tell us who the kisser's going to be.

I think that Harry and Ginny are going to get a little closer and maybe get to the point where Cho and Harry got, or Luna might be involved there somewhere.

[IceKat55]

well new topic jkr said harry would be getting kissed next book by more than one person.

so 2 people
2 kisses

who are they ?

well i see only 3 people harmione ginny or luna

i think its ginny first then he will realise he loves harmione and fall for her what do u lot think ?
Actually, she said Harry would be receiving "a kiss or two", but "I'm not telling who the kisser's going to be".

Which leads us right back to 'why we should believe Rowling when she promotes R/Hr'. She has no trouble giving clues and direct answers (even unprompted answers!) about them - - however, it is Harry's love interest that she wants to keep secret. Not Ron's or Hermione's. Harry's.

But sorry - - Hermione seems to be spoken for. ;)

[Angua9]

This is a good exercise I think, so I’d like to take it a bit further. If I were Couric, the interview would have gone a bit more like this:

<snip>

About now, I would think JKR would walk out and most of the Harry Potter fandom would blacklist me for being mean to their favourite author… ;)
A long time before that, if I know anything about JKR and her fandom.

My point, I guess, is that when someone is not answering a question directly, then they are not answering a question directly
Ah, but your "interview" would have given us the *very* valuable information that Harry and Hermione are still very platonic friends. :)

Seriously, just because JKR isn't willing to flat out state a truth doesn't mean she isn't willing to hint broadly (or, in some cases, subtly) at the truth. Surprisingly few of her answers are plain yesses or noes -- most of the information we have from her on every subject is a hint or an implication. Random examples:

gazza: Will harry become head master of hogwarts?
JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic career, he's seen so much action!
Is that a no? It seems like a no, but why didn't she just say so?

Field: Do you plan for Ginny to take on a major character role in the next two books?
JK Rowling replies -> Well, now that Ginny has stopped being mute in Harry's presence I think you can see that she is a fairly forceful personality (and she always has been, remember Ron saying that she 'never shuts up' in Chamber of Secrets)?
That sort of seems like a yes, but she didn't say yes. Why not? Is there some kind of secret there?

* Cathedral: Will we be hearing anything from Sirius Black's brother, Regulus, in future books?
JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days.
So, that's a no, then? Right? Right? Why won't she just say no????

Potter47: Will Harry tell Neville about the Prophesy?
JK Rowling replies -> Harry will tell his nearest and dearest about the prophecy when he's ready. He needs time to digest the news himself first.
Yes, but is Neville one of Harry's "nearest and dearest" or not? Arrrgghhh! She didn't say!

I don't see any reason to conclude that JKR failing to give us absolute yes or no answers about many shipping subjects means that there's something funny going on in shipping. She does that about everything.

JKR’s statements on shipping have never been as clear cut as this… or as this:

Or as this:
I disagree.

If she had, the shipping wars would have been long dead
I don't agree with that, either, unfortunately.

I think it unfair that you compare H/Hr theories with theories such as Snape is a Vampire which have, at most, one minor canon moment to back them up.
Oh no, Snape-is-a-vampire had a lot of striking evidence to back it up. Like, for instance, Snape is compared to a bat exactly once in each book (not sure if that includes Book 5) and Lupin assigned a Vampire essay after Snape assigned the Werewolf essay and (pointedly?) mentioned it in front of Snape.

Don't underestimate any of those theories -- their true believers have gathered a lot of evidence and written long, persuasive essays about them.

[Corbin Dallas]

Sorry, but journalists always research their topic of an interview. Even Couric should have gotten that, despite being a soft journalist. If Couric cannot do some thing as basic as research, then I really question whether she should be interviewing people period.
Perhaps you remember that incident with CBS back in October, I won't name names, as I forgot it, but he went on the air with false reports about President Bush and apparantly, didn't research his topic on it, pretty embarrassing for CBS really, wish I could remember his name,
oh and as a side, Couric as an interviewer pales in comparrison to Howard Stern, hate him all you want but he's made his career on it and it has gone on for 30 years now...
CD

[Hus]

sorry you got me confused here doesent kisserS mean more then one person i think so and where does it say harmiones already taken

But sorry - - Hermione seems to be spoken for.

not yet well only at least for your opinion

look sorry to all ron/harmione fans ron had his chance if gof and ootp and he did nothing but **** hermione off thats why i see h/hr

[Moonstruck]

Perhaps you remember that incident with CBS back in October, I won't name names, as I forgot it, but he went on the air with false reports about President Bush and apparantly, didn't research his topic on it, pretty embarrassing for CBS really, wish I could remember his name,

It's Dan Rather (went over him in my classes afterward, poor guy) and that's an example of where political bias gets in the way of proper news reporting.

[Corbin Dallas]

It's Dan Rather (went over him in my classes afterward, poor guy) and that's an example of where political bias gets in the way of proper news reporting.
and proper lack of resaerch...
CD
PS poor guy? the bloke let his personal views obstruct his professionalism, not poor guy, stupid git is more like it ;) .

[Moonstruck]

and proper lack of resaerch...
CD

Political bias prevented a proper lack of research. :huh:

PS poor guy? the bloke let his personal views obstruct his professionalism, not poor guy, stupid git is more like it

Be that as it may, do people deserve being ostrisived(?) like he was? I don't condone what he did, but I feel sorry for the flack that he got.

[Corbin Dallas]

Political bias prevented a proper lack of research. :huh:
Thus Stupid Git, obvious if you ask me and as you talked about him in your class I'm sure others pointed out how this wasn't his first goof like this, other networks were quick to point that out but Like I said, Stupid Git :D ! Probably got Bush some more votes because of it...
CD

[Moonstruck]

Thus Stupid Git, obvious if you ask me and as you talked about him in your class I'm sure others pointed out how this wasn't his first goof like this, other networks were quick to point that out but Like I said, Stupid Git :D ! Probably got Bush some more votes because of it...
CD

This one was the only one we discussed in my class.

[Anakin Solo]

Yeah, but it would not make him mad that they became a couple... he is just jealous they hang around each other more sometimes then with him... it happens to a lot of people...



No, Ron has not told him. Ron probably thinks Harry would laugh at him. He also thinks Hermione would reject him or turn him down... when Herons like me believe she will absolutely fall for him. I believe she is waiting for him to ask. Like JK Rowling said... Ron doesn't realize it yet... but that is him.

Sure, but if they were a couple, then they would inherently spend more time together without Harry, you admitted that that makes Harry jealous.

Uh, If Ron was like 99 % of most guys his age he would have told Harry quite some time ago, or at least Harry would have figured it out.

[Sienna]

TheLeprechaun:
Sienna, let me just say that this is viewed as a kids book and most reporters that are engaging in a publicity conversation will probably refrain from being to pushy as that would make you look bad and while you might get more answers you would then shred some of the mystery. It's Today (something geared to getting you up in the morning being reasonably happy), not Hardball (geared to getting answers from the top political players in the country).

I do realise this Leprechaun and you’re right. My point ultimately wasn’t to argue that Couric is a bad interviewer (which she is… just shocking really). My point was to demonstrate that JKR’s answers are not straightforward and that saying that they are is not really supportable.

I don’t believe I put things in her mouth during that hypothetical interview that were too far away from most of what she has said on the shipping debate to date. As you can see however, when put all together there is a fair argument to be made that she is keeping something back… and why shouldn’t she, she is the author after all. She has a right to surprise us. But saying that what she has hinted at (ie R/Hr) is the final word on the matter, is just too premature.

The exercise above, while a lot of fun to put together ;), was merely my attempt to demonstrate where the interview might have hypothetically gone if she had been faced by an interviewer who was prepared to play hardball – ie. get to the truth of the matter.

This is why I don’t place equal amounts of weight on interview answers as I do on canon.

I mean … for the sake of argument… lets take this interview to the next level. It could have gone anywhere, could it not?

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious?

JKR: Look, fine there’s more to it … you happy now? Huh? Hmm? Eh?! There’s a complicated triangle between the three friends that is going to be very important to how their relationship evolves in the final two books. Satisfied? Ron loves Hermione and Hermione loves Harry and things go ****-up before the end, which plays a huge role in whether or not Harry even survives his battle with Voldemort. That okay by you? You satisfied now, you great big lump of …. (bleep)? You just ruined it for everybody! *storms out*

OR

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious?

JKR: Okay fine, Ron and Hermione get married and have lots of kids together. You happy now? Geeze Louise… talk about killing the mystery. *storms out*

OR

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious?

JKR: Okay fine … it’s not obvious okay … I’ve deliberately made Hermione’s feelings ambiguous. You happy? I can’t tell you anymore than that … I refuse to… it’s too important. That’s it… no more questions… *storms out*

OR

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious?

JKR: Okay fine … it’s Harry and Hermione okay! Alright?! I can’t tell you that because their love is destined to save the wizarding world. Will you leave me alone now please… hey… someone get me a cigarette… *storms out*

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious?

JKR: Oh… shut up. *rolls eyes*

The possibilities are endless… ;)

Edited:

Angua:
Surprisingly few of her answers are plain yesses or noes -- most of the information we have from her on every subject is a hint or an implication.

This is my point. Lets take the examples you give.

gazza: Will harry become head master of hogwarts?
JK Rowling replies -> I'm not sure I can see Harry in an academic career, he's seen so much action!

Yes, it does seem like a no… but is it? All it means is that she’s not sure that she can see him in an academic career… but who said that he needed to be in an academic career to become headmaster of Hogwarts. Maybe a situation will arise where the new Minister of Magic makes Harry Headmaster for a day. (Unlikely, I grant you but stay with me here ;)). Does this mean she lied in the above statement if that happens? No. Maybe she wants to keep her options open.

Field: Do you plan for Ginny to take on a major character role in the next two books?
JK Rowling replies -> Well, now that Ginny has stopped being mute in Harry's presence I think you can see that she is a fairly forceful personality (and she always has been, remember Ron saying that she 'never shuts up' in Chamber of Secrets)?

Well now, it certainly seems to be suggesting yes but is it really? Isn’t if equally as likely that she is just saying that Ginny has always been this way, just not in front of Harry? She is one of the major minor characters after all, outside the trio. And what does being a major character really mean? Maybe there is a secret there … maybe Ginny is destined to be Harry’s love interest and answering yes to that question would give it away. Or maybe she is not and answering no would give it away.

* Cathedral: Will we be hearing anything from Sirius Black's brother, Regulus, in future books?
JK Rowling replies -> Well, he's dead, so he's pretty quiet these days.

Yep… that’s pretty much a no. ;) But notice that even this may not be what it seems. What if we see Regulus through a pensieve … he’d still be dead if that happened wouldn’t he?

Potter47: Will Harry tell Neville about the Prophesy?
JK Rowling replies -> Harry will tell his nearest and dearest about the prophecy when he's ready. He needs time to digest the news himself first.

Maybe he will become one of Harry’s nearest and dearest or maybe he’ll only tell one person … maybe that will be the clue we need as to who, if anyone, will be his love interest. It seems obvious to me that in this particular case, she is keeping a secret.


Sienna

[Corbin Dallas]

This one was the only one we discussed in my class.
in the end my point being is that these nits on the evening news and interview shows don't always do the research they should, do you really think Katie looked JK up on the net or made notes from the book about what to ask, or had her RESEARCH ASSISTANT(not mad, just emphasis) do that for her, think on it...
CD

[Moonstruck]

in the end my point being is that these nits on the evening news and interview shows don't always do the research they should, do you really think Katie looked JK up on the net or made notes from the book about what to ask, or had her RESEARCH ASSISTANT(not mad, just emphasis) do that for her, think on it...
CD

Well, since this was merely an interview with a popular author which Couric might have knew little about, yes, I think that Couric (or her research assistant, which still means that she should have known what was going on) would have been properly prepared for the interview.

[Anakin Solo]

well new topic jkr said harry would be getting kissed next book by more than one person.

so 2 people
2 kisses

who are they ?

well i see only 3 people harmione ginny or luna

i think its ginny first then he will realise he loves harmione and fall for her what do u lot think ?

Define kiss, a really kiss like Cho did or a kiss on the cheek like HErmione and Cho did as well?

I'm seeing Hermione and either Ginny or Luna, because I can't see Harry going through both Ginny and Luna in one book

[Corbin Dallas]

Well, since this was merely an interview with a popular author which Couric might have knew little about, yes, I think that Couric (or her research assistant, which still means that she should have known what was going on) would have been properly prepared for the interview.
So then why ask about Harry and Hermione when a simple search of what Jo has talked about, especially in Goblet, would merit a question about Ron and Hermione instead, Jo herself brings them up, popular Author true, but be real about it, Julia Robert or Colin Ferrel are more Couric's style, there's hardly any substance with them ;) ...
CD

[Anakin Solo]

Well, since this was merely an interview with a popular author which Couric might have knew little about, yes, I think that Couric (or her research assistant, which still means that she should have known what was going on) would have been properly prepared for the interview.

I would say interviewers often have not done their research, anyone remember Lisa Guitierrez from Monday Night Football last year?

[IceKat55]

sorry you got me confused here doesent kisserS mean more then one person i think so and where does it say harmiones already taken
No, not necessarily.

"I'm not telling who the kisser's going to be", means "I'm not telling who the kisser is going to be". The placement of the comma indicates One Kisser, singular. Not 'who the kissers are going to be', as in 'more than one kisser', plural. :)

not yet well only at least for your opinion

look sorry to all ron/harmione fans ron had his chance if gof and ootp and he did nothing but **** hermione off thats why i see h/hr
Well, according to Ms Rowling, "Yes, something's 'going on'" between Ron & Hermione, "but Ron doesn't realize it yet". Which, to me, means that he's not yet aware of the true nature, or depth, of his feelings for Hermione. IMO, Rowling is writing their romance very realistically - - slowly & steadily.

They're still very unsure of each other, but are getting there... :)

[Corbin Dallas]

I would say interviewers often have not done their research, anyone remember Lisa Guitierrez from Monday Night Football last year?

:rotfl: forgot about that one :rotfl: ...
CD

[Moonstruck]

So then why ask about Harry and Hermione when a simple search of what Jo has talked about, especially in Goblet, would merit a question about Ron and Hermione instead, Jo herself brings them up, popular Author true, but be real about it, Julia Robert or Colin Ferrel are more Couric's style, there's hardly any substance with them ;) ...
CD

But then why didn't Couric follow up? Going by your route with Couric knowing very little about the books and she just got one of her questions thrown back at her with a bit of info she didn't know before, why didn't she ask a follow up? Why not ask if Ron and Hermione were going to get together if it was info she did not know about before?

[Anakin Solo]

No, not necessarily.

"I'm not telling who the kisser's going to be", means "I'm not telling who the kisser is going to be". The placement of the comma indicates One Kisser, singular. Not 'who the kissers are going to be', as in 'more than one kisser', plural. :)


Well, according to Ms Rowling, "Yes, something's 'going on'" between Ron & Hermione, "but Ron doesn't realize it yet". Which, to me, means that he's not yet aware of the true nature, or depth, of his feelings for Hermione. IMO, Rowling is writing their romance very realistically - - slowly & steadily.

They're still very unsure of each other, but are getting there... :)


Come on, it doesn't take a guy 3 years...

[Corbin Dallas]

But then why didn't Couric follow up? Going by your route with Couric knowing very little about the books and she just got one of her questions thrown back at her with a bit of info she didn't know before, why didn't she ask a follow up? Why not ask if Ron and Hermione were going to get together if it was info she did not know about before?
Cause like Sienna said, Couric is not a good interviewer ;) ...
CD
PS
I do realise this Leprechaun and you’re right. My point ultimately wasn’t to argue that Couric is a bad interviewer(which she is… just shocking really). ...
ok Sienna said a bad interviewer...

[IceKat55]

Come on, it doesn't take a guy 3 years...
It does if he's clueless.

He met Hermione when he was 11 years old. At that point, girls are still gross & have cooties (;) ), so she just became his friend. Which has continued for a few years.

The tension that is bubbling between them is something that neither have ever experienced before, and they don't fully understand it, since they have no basis for comparison. Also, they're best friends - - they see each other every day. Realization of feelings will come in it's own good time, but for now, they're floundering in a bit of uncertainty, both with themselves and with each other. This leads to the tense bickering. They're confused & a bit scared of these feelings that they don't understand, and that causes them to lash out at each other.

IMO, of course. :)

[Anakin Solo]

But then why didn't Couric follow up? Going by your route with Couric knowing very little about the books and she just got one of her questions thrown back at her with a bit of info she didn't know before, why didn't she ask a follow up? Why not ask if Ron and Hermione were going to get together if it was info she did not know about before?

Because she didn't have her act together

[IceKat55]

But then why didn't Couric follow up? Going by your route with Couric knowing very little about the books and she just got one of her questions thrown back at her with a bit of info she didn't know before, why didn't she ask a follow up? Why not ask if Ron and Hermione were going to get together if it was info she did not know about before?
Because Rowling answered the question. She gave Couric a - "What? Didn't you even read the books?" - sorta look when she retorted with "Hermione and Harry?", then, with no prompting, she offered "Ron and Hermione, I would say...", with emphasis on the word "Ron", thereby answering the question. No lie, no deception...just a simple answer. :)

ETA: Also, Couric is not the sharpest tool in the shed. :lol:

[Moonstruck]

Cause like Sienna said, Couric is not a good interviewer ;) ...
CD
PS

ok Sienna said a bad interviewer...

So we are going to trust the answer when Couric didn't properly follow up? Sorry, but the journalist in me cannot partake in that.

Because Rowling answered the question. She gave Couric a - "What? Didn't you even read the books?" - look when she retorted with "Hermione and Harry?", then, with no prompting, she offered "Ron and Hermione, I would say...", with emphasis on the word "Ron", thereby answering the question. No lie, no deception...just a simple answer.

And as I said, journalists follow up with questions if they find a tidbit of infomation that they did not know before. If Couric had not read the books, she would have followed up because R/Hr was a new concept to her. She would have asked what JK meant by that as all proper journalist do when they find something they did not know before.

[Anakin Solo]

It does if he's clueless.

He met Hermione when he was 11 years old. At that point, girls are still gross & have cooties (;) ), so she just became his friend. Which has continued for a few years.

The tension that is bubbling between them is something that neither have ever experienced before, and they don't fully understand it, since they have no basis for comparison. Also, they're best friends - - they see each other every day. Realization of feelings will come in it's own good time, but for now, they're floundering in a bit of uncertainty, both with themselves and with each other. This leads to the tense bickering. They're confused & a bit scared of these feelings that they don't understand, and that causes them to lash out at each other.

IMO, of course. :)

Uh, I'd say interest in the opposite gender begins at 10 or 11...

Still, three years...that's about the length of 12 high school relationships...lol!

[IceKat55]

So we are going to trust the answer when Couric didn't properly follow up? Sorry, but the journalist in me cannot partake in that.
Why on earth should we blame Rowling for Couric's shortcomings?

She answered the question. She even did Couric's job for her, by offering Ron & Hermione, without waiting for Couric to catch up.

Uh, I'd say interest in the opposite gender begins at 10 or 11...

Still, three years...that's about the length of 12 high school relationships...lol!
It's not clockwork. These things happen in their own good time.

[Anakin Solo]

Because Rowling answered the question. She gave Couric a - "What? Didn't you even read the books?" - sorta look when she retorted with "Hermione and Harry?", then, with no prompting, she offered "Ron and Hermione, I would say...", with emphasis on the word "Ron", thereby answering the question. No lie, no deception...just a simple answer. :)

ETA: Also, Couric is not the sharpest tool in the shed. :lol:

Unfortunately, all she said was that Ron and HErmione has more crushing going on than H/hr.

lol, no COuric isn't, that would be me! j/k!

Why on earth should we blame Rowling for Couric's shortcomings?

She answered the question. She even did Couric's job for her, by offering Ron & Hermione, without waiting for Couric to catch up.


It's not clockwork. These things happen in their own good time.

yea, 3 years though, if she is trying to reflect typical high school relations...

[Corbin Dallas]

So we are going to trust the answer when Couric didn't properly follow up? Sorry, but the journalist in me cannot partake in that.
I think we should because from Jo's own mouth, she is honest, she doesn't want to lie to us and ultimately she doesn't need to. Jo brings up Ron and Hermione and as she odesn't go out of her way to lie to us we should believe she wasn't here either. If you think on it, Jo has been interviewed by some good interviewers and journalists, she may have been trying to help Katie, too bad it didn't work...
CD

[Moonstruck]

I think we should because from Jo's own mouth, she is honest, she doesn't want to lie to us and ultimately she doesn't need to. Jo brings up Ron and Hermione and as she odesn't go out of her way to lie to us we should believe she wasn't here either. If you think on it, Jo has been interviewed by some good interviewers and journalists, she may have been trying to help Katie, too bad it didn't work...
CD

But without the follow up (as Sienna pointed out, rather amusingly, too), the interview could have gone in many different ways.

I'm not saying you can't use it as evidence, just not as the end all, know all interview as most people say ends Harmony's chances. :)

[IceKat55]

Unfortunately, all she said was that Ron and HErmione has more crushing going on than H/hr.
Right. So - - do we believe that she was telling the truth? ;)

She's never tried to hide the R/Hr dynamic. In early interviews, on several different occasions, she's promoted them, very openly. Alternatively, she's denied promotion towards the idea of Harry & Hermione.

Also, she allows the filmmakers to point to R/Hr on screen - - Rowling has plenty of say-so in the films, and they're quite blatant about showing R/Hr. With her blessing. If you combine it all - - it really doesn't look good for the Harmony.

Who Harry's love interest is going to be, she's kept hidden. That's what she doesn't want to give away, and she's even flat-out told us so ("I'm not saying who the kisser's going to be"). But, if she intended for it to be Hermione, then all her previous quotes and pointing to the R/Hr dynamic would be a bit untruthful. Which would make me lose all amounts of respect for her. I'll allow her to be coy in answering questions, there's nothing wrong with that at all - - but she'd best not be deliberately misleading. :no:

[FredFancier]

look sorry to all ron/harmione fans ron had his chance if gof and ootp and he did nothing but **** hermione off thats why i see h/hr
Actually- did they have a major fight? did they stop talking for days? in OotP?
and more importantly as hermione scared of Ron? No, but she was scared of Harry- and personally I feel a good arguement where each person yells is healthier then one person yelling and the other one looking terrified.

[delemtri]

How do we know that "more than one kiss" means what we think it means? Maybe JKR's trying to trick us. Maybe Harry dates Ginny for all of book six and seven but then dies to a Dementor's Kiss! Ahh!

[IceKat55]

How do we know that "more than one kiss" means what we think it means? Maybe JKR's trying to trick us. Maybe Harry dates Ginny for all of book six and seven but then dies to a Dementor's Kiss! Ahh!
BITE YOUR TONGUE!!

*covers ears* Not listening, not listening, lalalalalalalala...

;)

[AmmoniaAlert]

And as I said, journalists follow up with questions if they find a tidbit of infomation that they did not know before. If Couric had not read the books, she would have followed up because R/Hr was a new concept to her. She would have asked what JK meant by that as all proper journalist do when they find something they did not know before.

Listening to the interview it felt to me as if Couric was fundamentally embarrassed and thought she (or her researcher) had missed something really obvious from the books.

She was probably hoping everybody would just forget about that little moment if she moved on to a different subject quickly.
Little did she know ;)

[rjade829]

Also, she allows the filmmakers to point to R/Hr on screen - - Rowling has plenty of say-so in the films, and they're quite blatant about showing R/Hr. With her blessing. If you combine it all - - it really doesn't look good for the Harmony.

Yeah, too bad there's so much H/HR in the films too. And if you combine canon, things don't look so bad for Harmony. But it's all down to one's interpretation I s'pose.

[Hus]

Actually- did they have a major fight? did they stop talking for days? in OotP?
and more importantly as hermione scared of Ron? No, but she was scared of Harry- and personally I feel a good arguement where each person yells is healthier then one person yelling and the other one looking terrified.

harmione is the only person besides dumbledore and voldy to stand up to harry no one else has if they did they failed harmione is the only personal who cant take harrys abuse and still talk to him and help sort out his problems.

is she scared of harry NO WAY if she was she would of been like ron through out ootp and not said much.

[enid]

Just to add The Power of Myth, by Joseph Campbell is what George Lucas creditted as inspiriration to the original Star Wars. His archetypes come from the Campbell school of thinking.

It's often run on PBS....absolutely worth watching if you get the chance!

[Anakin Solo]

Right. So - - do we believe that she was telling the truth? ;)

She's never tried to hide the R/Hr dynamic. In early interviews, on several different occasions, she's promoted them, very openly. Alternatively, she's denied promotion towards the idea of Harry & Hermione.

Also, she allows the filmmakers to point to R/Hr on screen - - Rowling has plenty of say-so in the films, and they're quite blatant about showing R/Hr. With her blessing. If you combine it all - - it really doesn't look good for the Harmony.

Who Harry's love interest is going to be, she's kept hidden. That's what she doesn't want to give away, and she's even flat-out told us so ("I'm not saying who the kisser's going to be"). But, if she intended for it to be Hermione, then all her previous quotes and pointing to the R/Hr dynamic would be a bit untruthful. Which would make me lose all amounts of respect for her. I'll allow her to be coy in answering questions, there's nothing wrong with that at all - - but she'd best not be deliberately misleading. :no:




No, I believe Ron and Hermione will get together, but I think in the End, Harmony will come out on top.

Yeah, too bad there's so much H/HR in the films too. And if you combine canon, things don't look so bad for Harmony. But it's all down to one's interpretation I s'pose.










Yea, they are showing A Heron view point on the surface, the over exxagerated hand grab by Hermione (because Harry was in danger) and the scene outside of the Shrieking Shack...do you want to move closer? What? I mean to the shrieking Shack. Oh no, Im just fine here.

There was also the hug after buckbeat was killed.
Harmony on the other hand has Tons of hand holding, about 5 hugs, and an extra half hour of scenes with just Hermione and HArry...

[rjade829]

Oh wow, I just realized I'm a sixth year now! That was off topic...well, I'm off to study some more now. Happy arguing :)

[delemtri]

No, I believe Ron and Hermione will get together, but I think in the End, Harmony will come out on top.

You Harmonians and your *impenetrable* logic. So Hermione definitely likes Harry and Ron's "lost his chance," but Ron and Hermione will still get together?

One day I will begin using only Harmonian points against other Harmonians. You guys contradict each other so much Heron hardly even needs to step in.

[Anakin Solo]

You Harmonians and your *impenetrable* logic. So Hermione definitely likes Harry and Ron's "lost his chance," but Ron and Hermione will still get together?

One day I will begin using only Harmonian points against other Harmonians. You guys contradict each other so much Heron hardly even needs to step in.








I never thought that Ron lost his chance, I think the sixth book however is his last chance, and I think he'll take it, and that Hermione and Ron will get together, but that something will happen, and the eventual pairing will be Harry and Hermione, providing Harry doesn't snuff it.

[delemtri]

I never thought that Ron lost his chance, I think the sixth book however is his last chance, and I think he'll take it, and that Hermione and Ron will get together, but that something will happen, and the eventual pairing will be Harry and Hermione, providing Harry doesn't snuff it.

Argue with your ship about it.

[Charmed Cheese]

I guess this is where we differ. The Couric statement was for me a fairly defining moment but for the opposite reasons. This is entirely my reading of the incident of course but I find it curious that Katie Couric became so flustered by JKR’s response. She is a professional interviewer – why would a ‘do you really think so?’ put her so off her game? Obviously she did think so, otherwise why would she ask the question?

If anything, I think JKR’s reaction demonstrated that there was something there to hide otherwise why react so strongly as to fluster Couric? Remember, Couric would have more information available to her to react to than we do viewing the interview from a rather clinical television screen. She would been reacting not only to JKR’s facial expression and words but also to the energy she felt from the author, the changes in the dynamic between them in that instance etc. I realise this sounds quite esoteric, but we all know that as humans we pick up on more signals than just the very obvious. There would have been a change of energy between them (and quite a big one methinks for Couric to have lost her hold on the interview).

In addition, I find it hard to believe that a professional journo like Couric would forget one simple rule of Journalism – always follow up. JKR clearly did not give her a definitive answer despite asking ‘do you really think so?’.


I think your giving Couric way too much credit there..."professional" ?:huh: :p

In my opinion, I think Rowling is laughing her butt off at all the analyses of her interviews. She probably had no idea how she's revealed so much by using a particular word or moving her hand in a certain way. I think we best stick to canon, because interviews are too unreliable.

[delemtri]

I think your giving Couric way too much credit there..."professional" ?:huh: :p

In my opinion, I think Rowling is laughing her butt off at all the analyses of her interviews. She probably had no idea how she's revealed so much by using a particular word or moving her hand in a certain way. I think we best stick to canon, because interviews are too unreliable.

The books are even more open to interpretation than the interviews.

[Hus]

i think ron had his shot with harmione in gof and ootp but his jealousy and insecuritys have held him back yes i agree with what jkr said something going on in gof but since then harmione was harsh to him in ootp even thought ron was trying to changed it seemed harmione was too concerned with harry and his issues to even look at ron

[eyemlost]

First, I just want to say that I know it's useful to use Star Wars just to show that the main hero or main character need not get the girl, and that the 'sidekick' or whatever Han is, can have a romantic relationship and not ruin his role as supporter. That's all well and good, since all you need to shoot a hole in any theory that's posed (If A and B have a romance --> C will be sad and destroyed) is to show a scenario in which A and B do have a romance and C is not destroyed. Also "The Hero must get the girl; it is his story, after all" only needs one example of the opposite being the case to demonstrate the weakness of this particular argument. There can be great, nuanced arguments against the possibility of Ron and Hermione getting together because that would negatively affect the story; the problem is when people over-generalise and suggest that such an outcome is impossible by the very nature of these fantasy books.

That said, I think that Harry Potter and Star Wars have very little in common, comparatively. For instance, I can group many fantasy series together, but Harry Potter and Star Wars each broke the mold. Star Wars is not all that much like the space movies that preceded it, and Harry Potter is a bestseller because it is very much unlike most other children's books, children's fantasies, and fantasies in general. I think that yes, they do have several basic fantasy/sf elements in common, but that on the whole they are really very different tales. I can't even really think of any characters that compare well between the two stories involving the MAIN characters (Harry, Hermione, Ron, Voldemort, and Luke, Leia, Han, Chewy, the Droids, Vader, Palpatine). And I think that Voldy and Palpy are about as different as two villains can get and still be powerhungry, magical male sociopaths, just in case some of you are shocked that I said that.

I think that character-wise, you can find more similarity between the HP characters and the characters of Lloyd Alexander's 'Prydain' Chronicles, but the plots (once you get past 'generic fantasy heroism') are way different, mainly because each of the Prydain books has its own weird setting and events, and the Harry Potter books have a very structured timeline. I think, for instance, that Snape and Prince Ellidyr from 'The Black Cauldron' are very much alike, but I hope Snape has a happier fate.

Then, there's Lord of the Rings. Would people even be talking about this so much if LotR and HP movies hadn't been made at the same time? I think not. Yeah, there are plenty of parallels you can make between the two, but all the ones I've read have just been superficial 'generic fantasy epic' talking points. There are loads of series out there that follow the stuff LotR made famous, mainly the band of friends,often composed of Men, Elves, and Dwarves going on a quest of some sort. Those ones have lots of similarities to LotR, not because the authors have plagiarised, but because the characters need to have certain elements in common in order for the stories to be exciting and for their motivations to make sense.

I think if we want to use other books to make predictions about the HP characters, we need to step WAY outside the LotR/StarWars box! It is possible, I think, because certain characters with certain motivations in HP have close matches throughout the genre of fantasy and just general science fiction, but let's at least try for a little variety!

I actually think the series has a whole lot more in common with the 'Wrinkle in Time' series, particularly the first and second books, as the importance of 'love' for both family, friends, and apparent enemies is crucial, and because the characters are also believable children and teens. Meg Murray has a great deal in common with Hermione (brains and insecurity). Mr Jenkins could quite easily be a more benevolent Snape (before we knew Snape used to be a Death Eater). They don't tell us a lot about 'romances' because Meg basically falls for the only male character her age.

While my post here is not love thread related I think you touched on every book/series of books that gave me a love of reading as a kid.

[Charmed Cheese]

Yea, they are showing A Heron view point on the surface, the over exxagerated hand grab by Hermione (because Harry was in danger) and the scene outside of the Shrieking Shack...do you want to move closer? What? I mean to the shrieking Shack. Oh no, Im just fine here.

There was also the hug after buckbeat was killed.
Harmony on the other hand has Tons of hand holding, about 5 hugs, and an extra half hour of scenes with just Hermione and HArry...

Yes but are hand holding, hugging, and heartfelt discussion exclusively romantic elements? All those who are romantically involved will hug, but not all those who hug are romantically involved.

The only thing that made the supposed "H/Hr" scenes romantic is a pre-concieved notion or desire for the two of them to be romantically involved. There really isn't anything in the movie indicating romantic tension or forshadowing.
Of course one can interpret it that way, but one can interpret the monster book attacking Neville as foreshadowing Neville's death by one of Hagrid's monsters. However, if that end never comes to Neville, the scene still has humourous effect. Just like if Harry and Hermione never hook up, all their alone scene will make sense and move with the flow of their friendship.

The books are even more open to interpretation than the interviews.

Yes, but it's more solid evidence of intent. In an interview one can easily say something they didn't want to say or use the wrong word.

If it's in writing, we can feel more assured that everything is correct and in the right place.

[Melcb98]

Oh, NOW you want to talk the literrary functions. I suggest you drop that angle, because it encourages other Harmonians to attack from that angle, and that is an angle which is very much not Heron.
I have no idea what you are getting at JordanL. First off, why the capitalized NOW? Second, why not talk about literary functions? Heron's are not afraid to do so. And, why should I drop it? Is it not Hermione's role in the series to be the brains and the thinker? Heron's know this, JKR has said it, and it has never been denied. Ron's role, though as important, is different. Both are important to Harry and Harry needs both his friends. Literary functions or not.

[delemtri]

Yes, but it's more solid evidence of intent. In an interview one can easily say something they didn't want to say or use the wrong word.

If it's in writing, we can feel more assured that everything is correct and in the right place.

I think JKR knows what she's doing in the interviews. She knows there is a fandom and she knows that we are trying to figure things out. She writes mysteries so well in the books and this doesn't fail her in the interviews.

[rjade829]

You Harmonians and your *impenetrable* logic. So Hermione definitely likes Harry and Ron's "lost his chance," but Ron and Hermione will still get together?

One day I will begin using only Harmonian points against other Harmonians. You guys contradict each other so much Heron hardly even needs to step in.

A bit rude, eh?
Who says every Harmonian needs to agree with everyone else? People all interpret the books differently. Some people don't think Hermione likes Harry; some people don't think Hermione likes Ron; some people think she likes both; some people think she liked Ron first and then Harry. Not everyone within a given ship agrees with all their shipmates' theories. The point is to state your personal theory and give your evidence supporting it.