Who will fall in love with whom? v40

[Sienna]

delemtri:
You Harmonians and your *impenetrable* logic. So Hermione definitely likes Harry and Ron's "lost his chance," but Ron and Hermione will still get together?

You Herons and your over-generalisations... ah, that's right... you're just one person and not representative of the entire community of R/Hr shippers. (Thank God for that).

One day I will begin using only Harmonian points against other Harmonians.

What's stopping you?

You guys contradict each other so much Heron hardly even needs to step in.

It's called individuality. Is there some sort of party-line we're supposed to be towing?

Sienna

[Charmed Cheese]

I think JKR knows what she's doing in the interviews. She knows there is a fandom and she knows that we are trying to figure things out. She writes mysteries so well in the books and this doesn't fail her in the interviews.

Still it's not worth the bother to analyze them.

Look, in my opinion, "do you really think their suited?" meant "of course not".

However, if people want to calculate how many times Rowling blinks in the interview to figure out the plot to book 6, then they can knock themselves out.

It's just not worth debating over.

[delemtri]

You Herons and your over-generalisations... ah, that's right... you're just one person and not representative of the entire community of R/Hr shippers. (Thank God for that).

Excuse me?

ETA: I just realized that you said something completely wrong. How am I overgeneralizing by saying H/H have internal disagreements? That's a statement about the general *heterogenuity* of the group, not its *homogenuity* which would be characteristic of a generalization. You Harmonians and your word usage.

What's stopping you?

Laziness.

It's called individuality. Is there some sort of party-line we're supposed to be towing?

No, it's just that if you actually listened to each other you'd realize that you put a good deal of effort into proving each other wrong.

[Charmed Cheese]

You Herons and your over-generalisations... ah, that's right... you're just one person and not representative of the entire community of R/Hr shippers. (Thank God for that).


Not to mention the fact he's disagreeing with me over interviews...and I'm a Heron. I guess we're special in that we have individuality when Harmonians don't...

[rjade829]

No, it's just that if you actually listened to each other you'd realize that you put a good deal of effort into proving each other wrong.

No, it's called people have varying interpretations.

[delemtri]

Not to mention the fact he's disagreeing with me over interviews...and I'm a Heron. I guess we're special in that we have individuality when Harmonians don't...

Do you guys even read my posts? I was stating that the Harmonians *do* have individuality and that it *hurts their ship,* just as my disagreement with you over the usage of interviews as canon is hurting ours.

ETA: To quote the member of the trio who is generally assumed to be thick-headed and useless, you are "fraternizing with the enemy" here. :)

No, it's called people have varying interpretations.

You could call Heron vs. Harmony that as well. Doesn't change the fact that we disagree and try to prove our point. Similarly, many Harmonians disagree with points made at some point by other Harmonians and use the converse of the previous point to try to support their ship.

[rjade829]

You could call Heron vs. Harmony that as well. Doesn't change the fact that we disagree and try to prove our point. Similarly, many Harmonians disagree with points made at some point by other Harmonians and use the converse of the previous point to try to support their ship.

Yes- But in my opinion, it doesn't weaken Harmony that some people have different opinions, as you think it does. It's simply their interpretation of the material.

[Charmed Cheese]

Do you guys even read my posts? I was stating that the Harmonians *do* have individuality and that it *hurts their ship,* just as my disagreement with you over the usage of interviews as canon is hurting ours.


How is it hurting our ship? We're not on teams here; we don't have to work together and agree on everything. We're all individual posters discussing possible couples. I hate cliquishness (for lack of a better term at 1:00am) at this board. On reason I hate it when people say "Yay <insert ship name> :clap:! Great posts!" It makes it sound like we're teams compete against each other.

I'm Charmed Cheese before I'm a Heron and Chocolater.

Also, my Chocolate ship mate GryffindorGr is not a heron, so we can't even divide the posters up perfectly among the ships.

Sometimes I agree with a harmonian over a chocolater (on the rare occaision). I really doesn't matter what we say or do because the outcomes of the ships are not resting on our interpretations or arguements. The outcomes of the ships is entirely dependant on Rowling.

We're the spectators, not the players.

[delemtri]

Yes- But in my opinion, it doesn't weaken Harmony that some people have different opinions, as you think it does. It's simply their interpretation of the material.

So it doesn't weaken Harmony that some sailors disagree with many of the points others use as the basis for their arguments? I don't understand.

[Jadecmn]

This has been buggin me for a while now, so here goes:

I think the basis for which many Harmonians base their theory, that Harry has to get with HErmione because He's the hero and she's the heroine, is flawed.

Specially when you take into account the fact that the dynamic of the group is changing.

The group is no longer just Ron, Harry and HErmione, at the very least it has extended to include Ginny.

I think Ginny and Hermione are best-friends en par with HArry and Ron's friendship. Not only that, the conversation that HArry and Ginny have in the library, in Chapter 29 (OotP), shows that they are good friends.

But, I did say at the very least, because in the last chapter of the book when they are sitting in the infirmary Luna and Neville are also there, considering that all the other times they've been inthe infirmary it was usually just the three of them, then I would say that this marks a change in the dynamics of the friendship, just because we now get different perspectives on issues.

This however has not changed our trio's friendship because they are the one's that do most of the talking in the chapter.

I also assumed that Harry was going to end up with Hermione when I began reading the series because he's the hero, but after reading PoA, I started to think differently, and after GoF it was firmly cemented in my mind that Ron and Hermione would happen.

Another point no one discusses is, if Harry does like Hermione, which I doubt, then why don't we know this for sure. When he started to like Cho, which was immedietly after meeting her, this is reaction:

"Cho chang, was the only girl in their team. She was shorter than Harry by about a head, and Harry couldn't help noticing, nervous as he was, that she was extremely pretty. She smiled at Harry as the teams faced each other behind their captains, and he felt a slight lurch in the region of his stomach that he didn't think had anything to do with nerves." Chapter 13, Prisoner of Azkaban.

The point is there was no questioning it, I knew immedietly that he liked Cho, why don't we get a similar reaction any of the times that Hermione, hugs or kisses him, maybe it's because he doesn't like her like that.

Either way considering that, IMO Harry knows that Ron likes Hermione (see quotes in signature), him going after Hermione might cause a bigger rift in the trio than if Ron and Hermione were to get together.

As far as Ron and Hermione having to spend more time away from Harry in order for them to be able to develop their relationship, they already do, besides, if and when Ron and Hermione decide to do anything, their relationship is already very developed, I mean they are best friends, what more could you want from a relationship.

Which brings me to another point, Harmonians seem to believe that all that Ron and Hermione do is argue, I think there is plenty of textual evidence for the fact that they don't, and that they are able to be together without arguing. Also I don't think that they view their arguments in much the light that some of us, as when Harry tells them to stop arguing in OotP they seem, shocked and insulted, they probably view their arguments as normal and probably neither of them sets much stock by them.

Well, now that that's off my chest, I'll check back in the morning to see the responses I get, it's 1 in the morning over here so..goodnight everyone.

[delemtri]

How is it hurting our ship? We're not on teams here; we don't have to work together and agree on everything. We're all individual posters discussing possible couples. I hate cliquishness (for lack of a better term at 1:00am) at this board. On reason I hate it when people say "Yay <insert ship name> :clap:! Great posts!" It makes it sound like we're teams compete against each other.

I'm Charmed Cheese before I'm a Heron and Chocolater.

Also, my Chocolate ship mate GryffindorGr is not a heron, so we can't even divide the posters up perfectly among the ships.

Sometimes I agree with a harmonian over a chocolater (on the rare occaision). I really doesn't matter what we say or do because the outcomes of the ships are not resting on our interpretations or arguements. The outcomes of the ships is entirely dependant on Rowling.

We're the spectators, not the players.

Oh do not give me that we're the spectators not the players stuff. I'm writing what may become a book about exactly how much playing we do.

Of course you're who you are before you're a member of a ship. I am too; that's why I'm disagreeing with you. I'm just wondering why we organize ourselves into ships if people within ships don't believe in the principles which are the foundation for other peoples' beliefs. It makes debate sort of ridiculous.

[Charmed Cheese]

ETA: To quote the member of the trio who is generally assumed to be thick-headed and useless, you are "fraternizing with the enemy" here. :)



:rotfl: Do I need to quote to other member of the trio's idignant reponse that accusation? :p ;)

[delemtri]

:rotfl: Do I need to quote to other member of the trio's idignant reponse that accusation? :p ;)

But in Ron's defense (I'm glad you didn't take me too seriously! People do that too often and end up reporting me and other such nonsense, or so I hear) he only befriended Krum *after the Triwizard Tournament was over.* I thought of this just now and I think it proves again how loyal a friend Ron is...

Or not.

[Charmed Cheese]

Oh do not give me that we're the spectators not the players stuff. I'm writing what may become a book about exactly how much playing we do.

Of course you're who you are before you're a member of a ship. I am too; that's why I'm disagreeing with you. I'm just wondering why we organize ourselves into ships if people within ships don't believe in the principles which are the foundation for other peoples' beliefs. It makes debate sort of ridiculous.

Or interesting. The only thing that makes a ship a ship is the belief that two people will get together, nothing more, nothing less. You don't even have to like the couple to ship it.

[rjade829]

I think the basis for which many Harmonians base their theory, that Harry has to get with HErmione because He's the hero and she's the heroine, is flawed.

No, no, no. Harmonian theory isn't based on this. Well, let me step back- I'm sure there might very well be people out there who do ship H/HR for this reason, but I haven't seen any and I completely disagree with that viewpoint as well. Of course Harry doesn't have to get with the "main" girl just because he's the hero. That's not the point and that only reinforces old cliches of superhero stories. As far as I'm concerned, I ship Harmony because I see evidence that Hermione likes Harry, I see clues pointing in the possible direction of Harry liking her back in the future, I think they are very well suited and I think their relationship would be quite beautiful. In my opinion she simply is the best girl for Harry and it has nothing to do with her being the "heroine," if you want to call her that - although I've seen people disagree here as to whether Hermione should even be called the "heroine."

[delemtri]

Or interesting. The only thing that makes a ship a ship is the belief that two people will get together, nothing more, nothing less. You don't even have to like the couple to ship it.

It just makes me wonder, that's all. "A house divided against itself cannot stand" and all that. (What's that from?)

[eyemlost]

......

Yea, they are showing A Heron view point on the surface, the over exxagerated hand grab by Hermione (because Harry was in danger) and the scene outside of the Shrieking Shack...do you want to move closer? What? I mean to the shrieking Shack. Oh no, Im just fine here.

There was also the hug after buckbeat was killed.
Harmony on the other hand has Tons of hand holding, about 5 hugs, and an extra half hour of scenes with just Hermione and HArry...

The thing that is different between the HR/R scens and the Hr/H scenes is the context. You have to look at whats going on in the scene. In one set of scenes you have HR/R standing out side of the shrieking shack and there is this romantic sort of date like atmosphere.
The other secene involves Hr/H being chased by a werewolf. So you hvae to people that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt do care for each other. holding hands to guide each other, and than you have Harry holding Hermione in a protective type embrace right as they think they are pretty much done for. Thats not romance thats two people who we know care for each other acting accordingly. Do you think that that they thought that was an opportune time for a nice hug and a strole though the woods holding hands?

woops i hit to early, My further statement is that I think we are to a degree products of our movie enviroment where the average producer seems to believe we need to be beaten severely over the head with something before we get it. As a result I think that people tend to miss subtle (or not so subtle) things.

[delemtri]

No, no, no. Harmonian theory isn't based on this. Well, let me step back- I'm sure there might very well be people out there who do ship H/HR for this reason, but I haven't seen any and I completely disagree with that viewpoint as well. Of course Harry doesn't have to get with the "main" girl just because he's the hero. That's not the point and that only reinforces old cliches of superhero stories. As far as I'm concerned, I ship Harmony because I see evidence that Hermione likes Harry, I see clues pointing in the possible direction of Harry liking her back, I think they are very well suited and I think their relationship would be quite beautiful. In my opinion she simply is the best girl for Harry and it has nothing to do with her being the "heroine," if you want to call her that - although I've seen people disagree here as to whether Hermione should even be called the "heroine."

This is a perfect example of what I was just saying, you agree?

The thing that is different between the HR/R scens and the Hr/H scenes is the context. You have to look at whats going on in the scene. In one set of scenes you have HR/R standing out side of the shrieking shack and there is this romantic sort of date like atmosphere.
The other secene involves Hr/H being chased by a werewolf. So you hvae to people that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt do care for each other. holding hands to guide each other, and than you have Harry holding Hermione in a protective type embrace right as they think they are pretty much done for. Thats not romance thats two people who we know care for each other acting accordingly.

Also there's no question that the people making the movie ship R/H; they say so themselves. Some Herons believe this is support for our side. I think it is support, but not very strong - but certainly it can be used to counteract any attempts of Harmonians to use the movie as support for them.

[rjade829]

This is a perfect example of what I was just saying, you agree?

Well, since you were saying that people within Harmony sometimes disagree with each other, then yes, since I assume there must be at least one person out there who supports the hero-must-get-with-heroine thing. So what?

[delemtri]

Well, since you were saying that people within Harmony sometimes disagree with each other, then yes, since I assume there must be at least one person out there who supports the hero-must-get-with-heroine thing. So what?

So what is the point of Heron arguing with them if we can let you do it?

[rjade829]

So what is the point of Heron arguing with them if we can let you do it?

Heron arguing with who?

[Charmed Cheese]

It just makes me wonder, that's all. "A house divided against itself cannot stand" and all that. (What's that from?)

Yes but if they fall it will be because Harry marries Ginny and Hermione marries Ron. Not because they disaggreed. ;)

(Note I put "if" despite the temptation to write "when"... :p )

[Sienna]

drdementor
First, I just want to say that I know it's useful to use Star Wars just to show that the main hero or main character need not get the girl, and that the 'sidekick' or whatever Han is, can have a romantic relationship and not ruin his role as supporter. That's all well and good, since all you need to shoot a hole in any theory that's posed (If A and B have a romance --> C will be sad and destroyed) is to show a scenario in which A and B do have a romance and C is not destroyed. Also "The Hero must get the girl; it is his story, after all" only needs one example of the opposite being the case to demonstrate the weakness of this particular argument. There can be great, nuanced arguments against the possibility of Ron and Hermione getting together because that would negatively affect the story; the problem is when people over-generalise and suggest that such an outcome is impossible by the very nature of these fantasy books.

That said, I think that Harry Potter and Star Wars have very little in common, comparatively.

This is an interesting point drdementor. I want to touch on this for a moment as I believe that the comparison between Star Wars and Harry Potter highlights some interesting things.

The relationship between Luke and Leia is one of the most interesting aspects of the Star Wars series. In my essay, The Anima: Jungian Archetypes and H/Hr, I demonstrate how Hermione operates as Harry’s anima in Harry’s hero journey. This is a good time to acknowledge that in Star Wars, Leia plays a similar role for Luke, acting often as his guiding light.

At first glance, this may seem to negate the possibility of H/Hr developing among romantic lines. However, this is not necessarily true. Part of the journey to self-individuation involves the integration of the masculine with the feminine – Yin and Yang - the male with his anima – the female with her animus. In Star Wars this is exactly what happens. Right before Luke goes to face his shadow/ nemesis, he symbolically integrates with his anima. The moment I am talking about of course is the moment when Luke and Leia acknowledge the truth of the bond between them – they are twins. Acknowledgement of his female half complete, Luke can then symbolically go on to the last stage of his journey: integration with the shadow (which again, is exactly what happens when Vader saves Luke from the Emperor).

What implications does this have for Harry Potter? Well, Hermione acts as Harry’s anima. This can be established clearly in the narrative. Before Harry faces Voldemort – to integrate his shadow – he must first integrate with his feminine half represented archetypally in the narrative by Hermione. In Star Wars, Lucas solves this literary dilemma by making Luke and Leia siblings, thereby freeing Leia for a Han/ Leia romantic subplot. In Harry Potter, how is this to happen?

What many forget when they compare Han and Leia to Ron and Hermione, is that Lucas had to eliminate Luke as a competitor altogether while still making integration with the anima possible. The only way to do this was to make them twins – brother and sister.

In addition, the moment at the end of Star Wars where Han declares that he would not get in the way of a Luke and Leia relationship is acknowledgement of this integration. Han’s relationship with Leia is only made possible narratively speaking because Luke is her brother. Han/ Leia would not have worked had Lucas not made this decision. The hero needs to integrate with his anima – how else does he do this platonically except by blood relation?

What does any of this have to do with Harry Potter? Well, is there anyone out there who really thinks that JKR is going to pull a Star Wars and make Harry and Hermione siblings?

Regardless of what you believe will be the ultimate ship, one thing remains a fact – in the archetypal journey to self-individuation, Harry and Hermione must somehow symbolically integrate in partnership for Harry to face and defeat Voldemort.

Sienna

delemtri:
So what is the point of Heron arguing with them if we can let you do it?

Oh who cares delemtri ... either let us get on with sinking our own ship then or move on. :rolleyes:

[delemtri]

Regardless of what you believe will be the ultimate ship, one thing remains a fact – in the archetypal journey to self-individuation, Harry and Hermione must somehow symbolically integrate in partnership for Harry to face and defeat Voldemort.

That is by no means a fact.

ETA: Look, I could argue for awhile about Jung; I think he's clueless, but you may disagree. But I'm not going to because Jung *does not exist in the Potterverse.* He simply does not. Using Jung to support H/H - or Freud (mother's hair, etc.) to support H/G - is ridiculous. For our purposes, Jung and Freud don't exist.

Heron arguing with who?

The people (there are many) who believe that Harry "deserves" to "get the girl."

[rjade829]

The people (there are many) who believe that Harry "deserves" to "get the girl."

The point of Herons arguing with these people is the same as people like me arguing with these people. We both simply disagree with this viewpoint.

[delemtri]

The point of Herons arguing with these people is the same as people like me arguing with these people. We both simply disagree with this viewpoint.

I agree entirely. As such, I believe we should try to effect a recentering of the shipping debate (perhaps into another debate) into deeper territory to discuss individual issues (are interviews canon, is Hermione interested in Ron, is Hermione "the girl" for Harry to "get) which are really at the heart of the matter, instead of arguing about the ships in which they manifest themselves.

Okay, maybe I don't. But you see what I'm saying, yes?

[Sienna]

delemtri:
That is by no means a fact.

I beg to differ:

http://talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=7834

An Jungian analysis of the roles each character plays demonstrates clearly that Hermione symbolically acts as anima in the narrative. The Harry Potter series incorporates many of these types of archetypes - the wise old man (Dumbledore), the trickster (Weasley Twins), the guardian (Sirius) and the anima (Hermione). JKR uses them very much in keeping with their archetypal roles.

Whether the hero's integration with his anima will entail romance or not is the only thing up for discussion (in my opinion).

But I'm not going to because Jung *does not exist in the Potterverse.* He simply does not. Using Jung to support H/H - or Freud (mother's hair, etc.) to support H/G - is ridiculous. For our purposes, Jung and Freud don't exist.

What's ridiculous is the claim that Jung is irrelevant because he doesn't *exist* in the Harry Potter world. He exists in *this* world and that is all that matters. You know why? Because I am analysing a novel written by an author in *this* world and not in *that* one. I am not analysing the series within its fictional reality but outside of it in my own reality, in which Jung (whether you personally agree with him or not) exists and is relevant.

And you know what else ... the Harry Potter world exists fictionally in *this* world also and therefore so does Jung in the Harry Potter world. Your assertion is illogical.

Sienna

[delemtri]

I beg to differ:

http://talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=7834

An Jungian analysis of the roles each character plays demonstrates clearly that Hermione symbolically acts as anima in the narrative. The Harry Potter series incorporates many of these types of archetypes - the wise old man (Dumbledore), the trickster (Weasley Twins), the guardian (Sirius) and the anima (Hermione). JKR uses them very much in keeping with their archetypal roles.

Whether the hero's integration with his anima will entail romance or not is the only thing up for discussion (in my opinion).

You can beg for anything you want, including to differ. I don't care what Jung has to say. I don't like archetypes and even if I did, they don't exist in the Potterverse.

We are in a world now, not merely in a piece of literature.

[Sienna]

delemtri:
I don't care what Jung has to say. I don't like archetypes and even if I did, they don't exist in the Potterverse.

See my comments above delemtri. Your assertion is illogical.

Sienna

[delemtri]

What's ridiculous is the claim that Jung is irrelevant because he doesn't *exist* in the Harry Potter world. He exists in *this* world and that is all that matters. You know why? Because I am analysing a novel written by an author in *this* world and not in *that* one. I am not analysing the series within its fictional reality but outside of it in my own reality, in which Jung (whether you personally agree with him or not) exists and is relevant.

And you know what else ... the Harry Potter world exists fictionally in *this* world also and therefore so does Jung in the Harry Potter world. Your assertion is illogical.

Jung doesn't exist fictionally in the Harry Potter world because JKR hasn't made him.

Analyze novels all you want. I'm sure you'll know a lot about killing literature. Right now I am appreciating it for its life.

[Daveydee]

This will need to be brief, unfortunately.

It's called individuality. Is there some sort of party-line we're supposed to be towing?

Well actually - yes. There should be.

Or at the very least some sort of consistent paradigm which both explains the defining moments that have brought us to this point in the romantic story-arc, and which can be used to form the basis of a prudent and safe - let's say the most likely, given the information we have - prediction as to where that story-arc will go next.

The Harmonian position just does not have this paradigm - it's all "theories" and "hidden clues".

Take the Harmonian view on the R/Hr dynamic, for example. One camp believes that it is so blatantly obvious that it must be a red herring, because "JKR is tricksy like that". The other camp sees nothing in that dynamic which might indicate a mutual attraction - "I just don't see it". My online experience is that neither of those two Harmonian camps holds the majority view. Yet those two views are, quite clearly, irreconcilable.

Speculation over future oucomes will be varied, but at this point in the series - five sevenths of the way through - there ought to be very broad agreement between yourselves over that which has already been written. So in that sense, Sienna, yes - there should be "some sort of party line".

[Charmed Cheese]

Regardless of what you believe will be the ultimate ship, one thing remains a fact – in the archetypal journey to self-individuation, Harry and Hermione must somehow symbolically integrate in partnership for Harry to face and defeat Voldemort.

Sienna

Interesting, although there are several significant differences.

Star Wars if a finished series. Luke's support from Leia, his other half, was fullfilled at the end of the series.
We still don't have an end to our series, so we can't say that Hermione fulfills that role yet. We don't know what is to come. However, what I do know, is that Hermione has never been present when Harry faces Voldemort: She's either taking care of Ron, petrified or unconscious. Even their most memorable moment together in PoA wasn't even against Voldemort. In OotP, Hermione help him fight against the death eaters, but she was long gone before Voldemort showed up.
The only girl who has been present while Harry is facing his rival is Ginny even if she wasn't conscious at the time. I also think it's significant that that meeting saw Harry face the fact his rival had a lot in common with himself. But that's anther post...

Furthermore, at the risk of sounding like a feminist, there's a very male-centric flaw in that arguement. Should there really be a "female" archetype? The males are defined by their personalities (ie, the sidekick, the joker, the trickster, the advisor, etc.), when female is defined as "the girl". One of the strongest element of Hermione's role, in my opinion, is that her gender is almost irrelevant. This will remain true if she never becomes romantically involved with Harry. She was made a girl not be romantically involved with Harry, but because that's who she is.
Furthermore, why can't more than one female be part of Harry's self-actualization? Harry needs more than one male for the process. Harry needs Hermione, but that doesn't preventing him from needing Ginny, or Luna for that matter. He just needs them all in different ways. That's one flaw I saw with Star Wars: not enough females!

[Sienna]

delemtri:
Jung doesn't exist fictionally in the Harry Potter world because JKR hasn't made him.

Analyze novels all you want. I'm sure you'll know a lot about killing literature. Right now I am appreciating it for its life.

Okay... try and stay with me. JKR has written a book in the reality we now as the 'real world'. In this 'real world' a psychologist called Carl Jung once hypothesised about the existence of archetypes in the collective unconscious of humanity. We fast forward a few decades, and a young author by the name of JKR writes a series entitled Harry Potter. In this fictional world, JKR uses ancient mythological images to populate her fictional reality. These images correspond to those that Jung hypothesised represented the archetypes of mythology. A comparison of several stories written along classical story structures demonstrates that these archetypes operate in very similar ways in the narrative. A comparison between Jung's theories on archetypes and the ways these images function in the Harry Potter narrative, demonstrates that they are consistent with each other.

We are analysing a novel in the real world not in the Potterverse.

Point number two - JKR has set her 'Potterverse' as you put it in an alternative reality of the 'real world'. She uses real events and real places in real time. Therefore, one would hypothesise that even if she has not mentioned Jung in canon that he still exists in her reality as he does in ours. Just as did Nicholas Flamel and many other historical character she uses in her story.

Regardless of whether he did or didn't however, it is irrelevent because I am analysing a 'real' book that exists in my reality that was written by a real author.

I apologise if I come across as patronising but I think it's fair to say that your point falls far short of making any real sense.

You say i know about killing literature? I know something about analysing it my friend. Your response shows only that you (a) know very little about Jung and (b) are at a loss for how to really respond to my original post. If either of these are untrue, then you have truly done your intellect a disservice.



Sienna

[JordanL]

You Harmonians and your *impenetrable* logic. So Hermione definitely likes Harry and Ron's "lost his chance," but Ron and Hermione will still get together?

One day I will begin using only Harmonian points against other Harmonians. You guys contradict each other so much Heron hardly even needs to step in.

Well, that is a situation which actually would reflect the literrary function of all the characters. It's personally what I think right now, because while JK doesn't lie about the books, she uses peoples trust to deliberately lead them to believe what the cannon at the time indicates, not what the story ultimately plays out to.

There are contradictions on both sides, like I've pointed out. Herons will concede the movies are not cannon, but never miss a chance to point them out. They think that there are some hidden meanings in conversations and situations Ron and Hermione have had, but only seem to take JK Rowling literally in her interviews, (and only when she's questioned on shipping).

Harmonians don't have a monopoly on contradictory ideas.

[Corbin Dallas]

You know it occurs to me that Jo has said that Harry does need Hermione, she is the brains, but she has also said that Harry needs his friends too, he can't afford to alienate them, I'm thinking this includes and especially means Ron. Consider Ron is his first and best friend, even over Hermione, Ron is but a plain wizard, his exceptional talent is in hs Chess ability to date, though Ron has a courage that is only matched by Harry. Ginny, Luna and Neville, a new threesome enters the circle, the Trio, three new friends, something about three is special and lest we forget that it is not just Hermione Harry needs to face Voldemort.
I am no expert on Jungian or Frued so I will not comment on it, it just seems to me that the idea that Hermione is a girl and becoming good friends with Harry, that everyone-well maybe most, who supports this "Ship" believes they must get together. I don't understand this logic. The clues brought forth to say there is foreshadowing just doesn't click with me so as of yet, I'm sorry but if Harry doesn't feel for Hermione now as a potential girlfreind, then I doubt it will change in the next two books. All thiss year, in three different quotes Jo has said she has given us enough clues to this situation, yes I believe her, so I do rule out Hermione for Harry. There are too many oppurtunities for real feelings to show between these tw and they haven't manifested, from either of them. This is my opinion, based on the text and Jo herself and is my opinion only.
Also if you check xray's list, you will nt find my name under any listing and there is a reason for it.
CD

[JordanL]

Take the Harmonian view on the R/Hr dynamic, for example. One camp believes that it is so blatantly obvious that it must be a red herring, because "JKR is tricksy like that". The other camp sees nothing in that dynamic which might indicate a mutual attraction - "I just don't see it". My online experience is that neither of those two Harmonian camps holds the majority view. Yet those two views are, quite clearly, irreconcilable.

So your telling me that because there's no concensus they're all wrong? I'm sorry, that's a logical fallacy (http://infogettable.net/glossary/term?item_id=4059&glossary_item_id=3514). The contrapositive of Appeal to Common Practice.

[Charmed Cheese]

You know it occurs to me that Jo has said that Harry does need Hermione, she is the brains, but she has also said that Harry needs his friends too, he can't afford to alienate them, I'm thinking this includes and especially means Ron. Consider Ron is his first and best friend, even over Hermione, Ron is but a plain wizard, his exceptional talent is in hs Chess ability to date, though Ron has a courage that is only matched by Harry. Ginny, Luna and Neville, a new threesome enters the circle, the Trio, three new friends, something about three is special and lest we forget that it is not just Hermione Harry needs to face Voldemort.


Exactly. If Rowling is playing with the animus and anima archetype she's using it to trample over it. It's a very simplisitic (and not to mention heteronormative) view that masculinity is completed by feminine counter-part.

Nobody is a ying or yang. They are several puzzle pieces needing many other other puzzle pieces to complete the picture.

[Melcb98]

There are contradictions on both sides, like I've pointed out. Herons will concede the movies are not cannon, but never miss a chance to point them out.
If the movies are brought up, for whatever reason, they will be discussed. Heron's are not the only ones who bring up the movies, not by a long shot. And, most of the time the movies are brought up, it is by posters who are here for the first time and only write a few posts, anyway.

BTW- I find it very ironic that here we are, and you are the one bringing up the movies. Funny.

[JordanL]

Jo has said she has given us enough clues to this situation, yes I believe her, so I do rule out Hermione for Harry.

But she was referring to Hermione's feelings for another, not Harry's, so your entire assumption doesn't make sense.

[delemtri]

You say i know about killing literature? I know something about analysing it my friend. Your response shows only that you (a) know very little about Jung and (b) are at a loss for how to really respond to my original post. If either of these are untrue, then you have truly done your intellect a disservice.

(a) I've read him and reject him offhand. Fair?
(b) Your inability to understand my point doesn't make it invalid.

I will make things a bit clearer for you.

Harry Potter is indeed a series which exists in the real world; however, it is incomplete. As such, the underlying questions of the series have yet to be answered. There are many of these because JKR is a very skillful mystery writer.

When we read the Harry Potter books we observe the world and ask these underlying questions, in addition to other important questions which are resolved within one book (who put Harry's name in the Goblet? who let the troll in?). When we try to answer these questions, we do not think back of some idiot like Jung. We use evidence from our observations *within the books.*

One of the major underlying questions of the series has been the subject of the Love Thread, the question which leads to what we call the shipping debates. When we use canon, we are *not* analyzing the books; we are remaining within the Potterverse, once again using evidence from our observations. What the fandom really is is an academia of sorts; we do not change reality, we only study it, argue it, try to draw conclusions. However, using Jung in here is like using one of our points in your lit or psych or whatever nonsense class about Jung. It does not directly translate.

You can start talking about Jung when the series is over and dead. That is when it will be a mere work of art. Right now it is a world, like a piece of music or a play in a theater is a world while it's being played. And we are its priests, its professors, its detectives. Jung is a figment of your imagination.

[JordanL]

If the movies are brought up, for whatever reason, they will be discussed. Heron's are not the only ones who bring up the movies, not by a long shot. And, most of the time the movies are brought up, it is by posters who are here for the first time and only write a few posts, anyway.

Perhaps, but in the short time I have been here, I have seen the movies brought up to seriously argue something no less than two dozen times, and only once by a Harmonian.

[Sienna]

Charmed Cheese:
Star Wars if a finished series. Luke's support from Leia, his other half, was fullfilled at the end of the series.
We still don't have an end to our series, so we can't say that Hermione fulfills that role yet. We don't know what is to come. However, what I do know, is that Hermione has never been present when Harry faces Voldemort: She's either taking care of Ron, petrified or unconscious. Even their most memorable moment together in PoA wasn't even against Voldemort. In OotP, Hermione help him fight against the death eaters, but she was long gone before Voldemort showed up.
The only girl who has been present while Harry is facing his rival is Ginny even if she wasn't conscious at the time. I also think it's significant that that meeting saw Harry face the fact his rival had a lot in common with himself. But that's anther post...

Brilliant... some actual engagement.

You are right CC that we have yet to see the ending of the series. However, it is my opinion that we have enough evidence of Hermione's role as anima in Harry's journey to conclude that this archetype has become focused in her. In Star Wars, Leia also did not join Luke to face Vader. In the archetypal hero's journey the integration of opposites must happen before the hero can integrate/ defeat the shadow.


Furthermore, at the risk of sounding like a feminist, there's a very male-centric flaw in that arguement. Should there really be a "female" archetype? The males are defined by their personalities (ie, the sidekick, the joker, the trickster, the advisor, etc.), when female is defined as "the girl".

I actually agree with you (and I am a feminist ;)). But then the mythology of the world as a whole is very male-centric. I once read a feminist analysis of the Chamber of Secrets that was very scathing in it's review of the archetypes in that story. If I could find it, I would post it here. However, I need a couple of things. For one, you are right that there are other relevant females in the Harry Potter narrative who are worthy of mention. In the beginning the anima can express itself in may forms (even as a bird ... Fawkes for instance can be said to represent this at one point in CoS). As the narrative develops however, and the hero gets closer to the climax of the story, the anima focuses itself in one character (in this case Hermione). Luna and Ginny however have their own roles to play (and I am working on an analysis of that now). Luna for instance, has very interesting connections to death that warrant some thinking about. The second point I would make is that if the hero was a female, then she would need to integrate with her animus (masculine half). The fact that it is the anima is only because the hero is a boy. Does that make sense?

delemtri:
When we use canon, we are *not* analyzing the books; we are remaining within the Potterverse, once again using evidence from our observations. What the fandom really is is an academia of sorts; we do not change reality, we only study it, argue it, try to draw conclusions. However, using Jung in here is like using one of our points in your lit or psych or whatever nonsense class about Jung. It does not directly translate.

And I say your logic is still faulty (although much better expressed). Regardless of whether you, personally, have dismissed Jung offhand and regardless of whether the series is complete or not, a Jungian analysis of the images used in the narrative is still relevant. Why should I limit myself to an analysis of the canon that relies only on the internal reality of that canon? We are not an academia of any sort if we cannot look at the thing from as many different perspectives as we can. This has more to do with your assertion of Jung as 'nonsense' methinks than anything else.

Sienna

[delemtri]

So your telling me that because there's no concensus they're all wrong? I'm sorry, that's a logical fallacy (http://infogettable.net/glossary/term?item_id=4059&glossary_item_id=3514). The contrapositive of Appeal to Common Practice.

No, we're telling you that because there's no consensus they look ridiculous sometimes.

[Corbin Dallas]

But she was referring to Hermione's feelings for another, not Harry's, so your entire assumption doesn't make sense.
Sorry JordanL in the worldbook chat of this year a poster asked if Hermione and Harry would get together and her response she wasn't saying but surely she has given enough clues, she also addresses Ron and Harry on her site and Edingburgh was just about Hermione and Ron so no I think my assumption that Jo has given us enough clues fits well for me, if not for you then that's you, but I don't speak for you now do I? Or arte you wanting me to?
Please try to understand when someone is merely stating an opinion, and yes I believe Jo JordanL, don't you?
CD

[JordanL]

No, we're telling you that because there's no consensus they look ridiculous sometimes.

Which would only be brought up to imply that that is indicative of the validity of their claims. Otherwise, its just an ad hominem.

[delemtri]

Which would only be brought up to imply that that is indicative of the validity of their claims. Otherwise, its just an ad hominem.

Can't be an ad hominem if it's about the ship as a whole, can it? It was also an inquiry into the usefulness of the shipping system itself.

[JordanL]

Please try to understand when someone is merely stating an opinion, and yes I believe Jo JordanL, don't you?

I'm really getting tired of this "join our side or you think Jo's a lier" ****. Of course I believe Jo, but as I've said, I seem to think she's just a bit more clever and kniving than you.

[Melcb98]

Perhaps, but in the short time I have been here, I have seen the movies brought up to seriously argue something no less than two dozen times, and only once by a Harmonian.
Lol- brought up on different occasions 2 dozen times- point me out to those posts, because I highly doubt it. The movies are brought up enough, but not a fraction of the time other things are talked about- and I've been here a long time.

[The Leprechaun]

I do realise this Leprechaun and you’re right. My point ultimately wasn’t to argue that Couric is a bad interviewer (which she is… just shocking really). My point was to demonstrate that JKR’s answers are not straightforward and that saying that they are is not really supportable.

I don’t believe I put things in her mouth during that hypothetical interview that were too far away from most of what she has said on the shipping debate to date. As you can see however, when put all together there is a fair argument to be made that she is keeping something back… and why shouldn’t she, she is the author after all. She has a right to surprise us. But saying that what she has hinted at (ie R/Hr) is the final word on the matter, is just too premature.

The exercise above, while a lot of fun to put together ;), was merely my attempt to demonstrate where the interview might have hypothetically gone if she had been faced by an interviewer who was prepared to play hardball – ie. get to the truth of the matter.

This is why I don’t place equal amounts of weight on interview answers as I do on canon.

I mean … for the sake of argument… lets take this interview to the next level. It could have gone anywhere, could it not?

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious?

JKR: Look, fine there’s more to it … you happy now? Huh? Hmm? Eh?! There’s a complicated triangle between the three friends that is going to be very important to how their relationship evolves in the final two books. Satisfied? Ron loves Hermione and Hermione loves Harry and things go ****-up before the end, which plays a huge role in whether or not Harry even survives his battle with Voldemort. That okay by you? You satisfied now, you great big lump of …. (bleep)? You just ruined it for everybody! *storms out*

OR

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious?

JKR: Okay fine, Ron and Hermione get married and have lots of kids together. You happy now? Geeze Louise… talk about killing the mystery. *storms out*

OR

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious?

JKR: Okay fine … it’s not obvious okay … I’ve deliberately made Hermione’s feelings ambiguous. You happy? I can’t tell you anymore than that … I refuse to… it’s too important. That’s it… no more questions… *storms out*

OR

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious?

JKR: Okay fine … it’s Harry and Hermione okay! Alright?! I can’t tell you that because their love is destined to save the wizarding world. Will you leave me alone now please… hey… someone get me a cigarette… *storms out*

Sienna: What surprise? I thought it was really obvious?

JKR: Oh… shut up. *rolls eyes*

The possibilities are endless… ;)

I agree that Katie Couric isn't a bad interviewer. I realize others were though, my problem is that she didn't need to continue since (and this is a Katie's response based guess) she probably thought that it meant that Harry and Hermione weren't to be and Ron and Hermione were meant to be. I don't believe she is without any knowledge, I think that she has probably gone to the movies with her children. It is possible she read her children the books (or maybe not) to a point, ending maybe before GoF. Who knows, she and her children, if she has any. So, speculating this isn't very easy until one looks at all her and JKR interviews (which equal at least three, I think).

It makes Heron look better though, but I have yet to say (at least as after coming here) that Heron is a definitively sure thing. I think that it is way more likely, but nothing is a sure thing until it is in the novels. But, you also didn't acknowledge the time difference, which does matter. Some of them happened before we had some knowledge and some had queries that were different then what you presented.

To an extent, neither do I. It's not the actual books, but they do give hints and I don't see how they should be viewed with such ditrust. Personally, I don't see them as misleading. Sometimes she makes mistakes, but that is acceptable. Have you ever tried to keep a whole fantasy world in your head, it is hard and you get a few things confused. Her credibility is pretty good right now, so beyond her coy attitude there isn't much to say that she is purposely misleading. Not that this means that Heron is 100%.

Possible, but since she didn't press it like almost all the interviewers and people who question her about the books do, we have no idea what she would do when pressured to answer a question for sure. This is just something that no one would do over what is considered a childrens book.

[JordanL]

Can't be an ad hominem if it's about the ship as a whole, can it? It was also an inquiry into the usefulness of the shipping system itself.

Hmmm... well if that's true I can see what your saying, but it was presented as a view on the shippers, not the shipping system.

Perhaps I should have given you the benefit of the doubt? Just try to be a little clearer next time.

[Melcb98]

I'm really getting tired of this "join our side or you think Jo's a lier" ****. Of course I believe Jo, but as I've said, I seem to think she's just a bit more clever and kniving than you.
Tired of it? Get used to it, new arguments are rarely brought up- this is the 40v of this thread, with between 1500-3000 posts in each one. Don't tire so quickly.

[delemtri]

Hmmm... well if that's true I can see what your saying, but it was presented as a view on the shippers, not the shipping system.

Perhaps I should have given you the benefit of the doubt? Just try to be a little clearer next time.

Well, you responded to Corbin, not me, if I remember correctly. It was a view a) the Harmony ship and b) the shipping system itself. Not any individual shippers.

[JordanL]

Lol- brought up on different occasions 2 dozen times- point me out to those posts, because I highly doubt it. The movies are brought up enough, but not a fraction of the time other things are talked about- and I've been here a long time.

Are you serious? Do you really want me to link them? That would take sooooo long....

It took me three days of posting to, as a nonshipper, get completely fed up with the use of the movies. I think that's utterly amazing personally.

Tired of it? Get used to it, new arguments are rarely brought up- this is the 40v of this thread, with between 1500-3000 posts in each one. Don't tire so quickly.

Get used to it? Do you guys seriously sit here and think up new ways of trying to blackmail people into concurrent thinking?

[The Leprechaun]

But then why didn't Couric follow up? Going by your route with Couric knowing very little about the books and she just got one of her questions thrown back at her with a bit of info she didn't know before, why didn't she ask a follow up? Why not ask if Ron and Hermione were going to get together if it was info she did not know about before?

Maybe, she felt like she got her answer and she may have thought others would get the hint, whether or not this is a definive sinking or not of Harmony (I personally do not think this).

Maybe she didn't think that it merited more time.

There are many possible explanations.

[Charmed Cheese]

I actually agree with you (and I am a feminist ;)). But then the mythology of the world as a hole is very male-centric. I once read a feminist analysis of the Chamber of Secrets that was very scathing in it's review of the archetypes in that story. If I could find it, I would post it here. However, I need a couple of things. For one, you are right that there are other relevant females in the Harry Potter narrative who are worthy of mention. In the beginning the anima can express itself in may forms (even as a bird ... Fawkes for instance can be said to represent this at one point in CoS). As the narrative develops however, and the hero gets closer to the climax of the story, the anima focuses itself in one character (in this case Hermione). Luna and Ginny however have their own roles to play (and I am working on an analysis of that now). Luna for instance, has very interesting connections to death that warrant some thinking about. The second point I would make is that if the hero was a female, then she would need to integrate with her animus (masculine half). The fact that it is the anima is only because the hero is a boy. Does that make sense?

Sienna

It makes sense, I just don't approve of the whole anima/animus archetype because, as I said earlier it's very heteronormative.

Also, you brought up the fact that Lucas had to make Leia Luke's sister so that Han and Leia could happen. What if Rowling is talking it further? That two closely connect people can be just friends without any excuse?

Also I don't find Hermione to be Harry's opposite. To me they are both yins or both yangs. They don't have complementary traits. Where Harry is melodramatic, Hermione is serious. This can be a bad combination. I think there's more symbolic "ying and yang" imagery between Ron and Hermione and Harry and Ginny.

I'm curious to see the feminist rhetoric in light of CoS. You know, it's interesting that when Rowling was asked about her sexism she mention how frustrated she was that people insisted on what she is going to say before she's finished the books.

Do I think Rowling made Ginny a weak little damsel in distress? Absolutely. However, I think did that with the purpose of turning that cliche on its head.
She took Dumbledore and said "Here is the wise all knowing sage" then in book 5 she said "Here is the wise all knowing sage with emotional biases and human error".
I believe she's doing something similar with Ginny. She put her infront of us as an archetypal damsel in distress, and is now showing us her complexities. This is why Rowling took the effort to make us notice Ginny's "change".

ETA-apologies for any spelling errors, or sentences that don't make sense...I'm going to bed soon...honestly.

[JordanL]

Well, you responded to Corbin, not me, if I remember correctly. It was a view a) the Harmony ship and b) the shipping system itself. Not any individual shippers.

Woops.

:lol:

I feel stupid now. Should have checked the names. ;)

[delemtri]

I'm curious to see the feminist rhetoric in light of CoS. You know, it's interesting that when Rowling was asked about her sexism she mention how frustrated she was that people insisted on what she is going to say before she's finished the books.

This is largely what I mean when I say "the series is still alive." We can't do this sort of analysis (ETA: this sort of *autopsy*) on a series before it's dead; moreover, it's counterproductive.

Woops.

:lol:

I feel stupid now. Should have checked the names. ;)

No need.

[JordanL]

This is largely what I mean when I say "the series is still alive." We can't do this sort of analysis on a series before it's dead; moreover, it's counterproductive.

Which is something I completely agree with, and in many ways think more broadly.

[Melcb98]

Are you serious? Do you really want me to link them? That would take sooooo long....
If your actually counting, it shouldn't take that long.

It took me three days of posting to, as a nonshipper, get completely fed up with the use of the movies. I think that's utterly amazing personally.
Like I said, get used to it. We have a limited amount of material, and we go over it again and again. The movies will be brought up a couple hundred more times until the next movie comes out- and then that one will be mentioned a few thousand times until the 5th movie comes out, and then that will..............see where I'm going with this? And, with even that said- the movies are still only mentioned less times than other topics in comparrison- so you can imagine how often we've been over those.

[Corbin Dallas]

I'm really getting tired of this "join our side or you think Jo's a lier" ****. Of course I believe Jo, but as I've said, I seem to think she's just a bit more clever and kniving than you.
I see but not more so than you, ahh to be that young again,

still you mean "liar" and kaniving, don't worry I can't type well or even spell good either. Also I based my opinion, as i said earlier , on the text AND what she has said, you seemed to suggest otherwise, as to Hermione's feelings, well again the text seems pretty clear in some points, she really hasn't shown a romantic interest in Harry and Harry definately hasn't, and Jo says at this point we should know....
CD

[JordanL]

If your actually counting, it shouldn't take that long.

See... that's the thing. I wasn't actually counting, that was a rough estimation. Of course, I'm probably using a different standard for "seperate time"s.

I'll see what I can get you by mid-afternoon tomorrow. I don't have the energy to go link hunting right now.

Like I said, get used to it. We have a limited amount of material, and we go over it again and again. The movies will be brought up a couple hundred more times until the next movie comes out- and then that one will be mentioned a few thousand times until the 5th movie comes out, and then that will..............see where I'm going with this? And, with even that said- the movies are still only mentioned less than other topics in comparrison- so you can imagine how often we've been over those.

That's completely amazing. Why is anyone still here?

[delemtri]

kaniving conniving if we're correcting each other ;)

That's completely amazing. Why is anyone still here?

Because we live in this world as well as in the physical one, as I've been trying to explain to Sienna.

[Melcb98]

That's completely amazing. Why is anyone still here?
Cause in a weird way, we love each other, we love debating, we love the topic- and its fun!!

[JordanL]

still you mean "liar" and kaniving,

Indeed.

as to Hermione's feelings, well again the text seems pretty clear in some points, she really hasn't shown a romantic interest in Harry and Harry definately hasn't, and Jo says at this point we should know....

My whole point is that I completely believe that Jo is being facecious when she says it should be obvious. If it should be obvious, the red herring would be deterriorating signifigantly. Instead, the red herring, (if that's what H/Hr turns out to be), got more prominent in book five. One of them is a red herring, and I see the fact that they both still exist as a sign that there is a reason they both do, and that we are indeed not supposed to know yet, thus necessitating the red herring.

[The Leprechaun]

Yes, but it's more solid evidence of intent. In an interview one can easily say something they didn't want to say or use the wrong word.

If it's in writing, we can feel more assured that everything is correct and in the right place.

To an extent, even JKR has made adjustments to her own private book and, like most artists, is still not 100% satisfied with the way she wrote them. That is in her interviews and maybe on her site.

[Moonstruck]

That's completely amazing. Why is anyone still here?

In my case, I have no life. I have obsessions. :rotfl:

[JordanL]

Because we live in this world as well as in the physical one, as I've been trying to explain to Sienna.

:lol:

Oh, that really describes me in another forum. All I do there is break in the new guys on the old topics of politics.

Cause in a weird way, we love each other, we love debating, we love the topic- and its fun!!

I have to agree with you there.

[The Leprechaun]

Well, since you were saying that people within Harmony sometimes disagree with each other, then yes, since I assume there must be at least one person out there who supports the hero-must-get-with-heroine thing. So what?

Actually, there seems to be a decent number of Harmonians who believe this, but I don't understand it or how it hurts Harmony, beyond it being too much of a cliche reason that Harry and Hermione should get together.

[delemtri]

Actually, there seems to be a decent number of Harmonians who believe this, but I don't understand it or how it hurts Harmony, beyond it being too much of a cliche reason that Harry and Hermione should get together.

What we were discussing was the tendency for Harmonians (and, to a far lesser extent, Herons) to disagree with each other on issues of what is canon, on how to handle certain passages, on whether somebody had a crush on somebody else in a certain book; in other words, to disagree on everything except the final ship.

[The Leprechaun]

It just makes me wonder, that's all. "A house divided against itself cannot stand" and all that. (What's that from?)

I consider the slight split in Heron as a good thing, between those who ship Chocolate, Moonlight, or one of the smaller ships (like Honks, Susan/Harry, or Harry/No Body). I think that when a group holds different views that house is stronger, becuase they are more accepting and more capable. Sometimes I see Harmony as too Homogeneous, but I'm getting to see that this view may be a bit wrong.

I see but not more so than you, ahh to be that young again,

still you mean "liar" and kaniving, don't worry I can't type well or even spell good either. Also I based my opinion, as i said earlier , on the text AND what she has said, you seemed to suggest otherwise, as to Hermione's feelings, well again the text seems pretty clear in some points, she really hasn't shown a romantic interest in Harry and Harry definately hasn't, and Jo says at this point we should know....
CD

I believe the word you both are looking for is, conniving. And that is a horrible thing to say about JKR. That is literally saying that JKR is purposely lying and cheating people and doing something illegal. Check a dictionary.

[Lady Greyjoy]

t just makes me wonder, that's all. "A house divided against itself cannot stand" and all that. (What's that from?)

That would be a quote by Abraham Lincoln.

[The Leprechaun]

Indeed.

So you do think JKR is purposely lying and commiting illegal activity? Interesting.

[delemtri]

I believe the word you both are looking for is, conniving. And that is a horrible thing to say about JKR. That is literally saying that JKR is purposely lying and cheating people and doing something illegal. Check a dictionary.

I think you misunderstood Corbin - he was saying that *since* JKR said we should know and *since* we should believe JKR and *since* he feels the evidence for R/H is at least stronger than for H/H, it's only sensible to go with R/H at this point.

That would be a quote by Abraham Lincoln.

Thank you!

[The Leprechaun]

I think you misunderstood Corbin - he was saying that *since* JKR said we should know and *since* we should believe JKR and *since* he feels the evidence for R/H is at least stronger than for H/H, it's only sensible to go with R/H at this point.

I wasn't talking about Corbin, but who first posted kniving or whatever it was.

[delemtri]

I wasn't talking about Corbin, but who first posted kniving or whatever it was.

My mistake.

[The Leprechaun]

My mistake.

That's okay, I just chose to post after that post. I should've posted that after the original post, but I was too lazy to go back. Sorry, about that.

[Dementor149]

This has been buggin me for a while now, so here goes:

I think the basis for which many Harmonians base their theory, that Harry has to get with HErmione because He's the hero and she's the heroine, is flawed.

I think Harry and Hermione will get together just because they understand one another better and work better together


I also assumed that Harry was going to end up with Hermione when I began reading the series because he's the hero, but after reading PoA, I started to think differently, and after GoF it was firmly cemented in my mind that Ron and Hermione would happen.

Another point no one discusses is, if Harry does like Hermione, which I doubt, then why don't we know this for sure. When he started to like Cho, which was immedietly after meeting her, this is reaction:

"Cho chang, was the only girl in their team. She was shorter than Harry by about a head, and Harry couldn't help noticing, nervous as he was, that she was extremely pretty. She smiled at Harry as the teams faced each other behind their captains, and he felt a slight lurch in the region of his stomach that he didn't think had anything to do with nerves." Chapter 13, Prisoner of Azkaban.

I always thought Ron and Hermione's best chance was CoS. In PoA, if JKR wanted to develop R/Hr why did she write Ron out of the Time Turner part of the adventure. The FireBolt incident and the Scabbers/Crookshanks fight were major snags to me. In GoF, I feel like Hermione started thinking about Harry, with Ron beginning to realize he might have feelings for Hermione.


The point is there was no questioning it, I knew immedietly that he liked Cho, why don't we get a similar reaction any of the times that Hermione, hugs or kisses him, maybe it's because he doesn't like her like that.

Or, maybe, if Harry had feelings for Cho it would be out of character for him to have feelings for Hermione. There are still two books left for him to have a relationship with Hermione now that in OotP we know that he is over Cho.

Either way considering that, IMO Harry knows that Ron likes Hermione (see quotes in signature), him going after Hermione might cause a bigger rift in the trio than if Ron and Hermione were to get together.

You are welcome to your opinion. I just don't see it because IMO Luna will be putting moves on our favorite red haired boy. :eyebrows:

As far as Ron and Hermione having to spend more time away from Harry in order for them to be able to develop their relationship, they already do, besides, if and when Ron and Hermione decide to do anything, their relationship is already very developed, I mean they are best friends, what more could you want from a relationship.

The interesting thing is when they are together without him, according to the text Hermione is going "spare" over Harry. (OotP US Edition page 63) They also appear to have been spending a lot of time discussing how to deal with Harry's reaction to things. In addition I wonder where Hermione went to look up all that stuff on underage magic.

Which brings me to another point, Harmonians seem to believe that all that Ron and Hermione do is argue, I think there is plenty of textual evidence for the fact that they don't, and that they are able to be together without arguing. Also I don't think that they view their arguments in much the light that some of us, as when Harry tells them to stop arguing in OotP they seem, shocked and insulted, they probably view their arguments as normal and probably neither of them sets much stock by them.

After re-reading the books I have to agree. There is not as much arguing as there seemed to be at first, but the arguments they do have seem serious and they are not resolved, just ignored. Doesn't bode well for the future IMO. Harry and Hermione seem to compromise and move on.

Well, now that that's off my chest, I'll check back in the morning to see the responses I get, it's 1 in the morning over here so..goodnight everyone.

A belated wish for a good night. :tu:

[Angua9]

Ah. Ok. Well perhaps you can outline a summary of the R/Hr subplot as you see it and I can reciprocate with a summary for H/Hr (although they sometimes take longer than actual essays).
*flexes typing fingers*

**************************************************************************************************

THE R/HR ROMANTIC SUBPLOT
A Quick-and-Dirty Outline

R-Hr (Books 1-3)
Before it became an R/Hr romantic subplot, we had an R-Hr relationship/friendship subplot. This was firmly introduced in the two train scenes of PS/SS, where Ron and Hermione immediately entered into an adversarial relationship, different from the relationship either of them had/has with Harry. This subplot was developed mostly in the following scenes:

- The two train meetings -- tension established
- The Midnight Duel scene -- tension raised and explored in extended arguing sequences
- The charms classroom scene -- tension raised to breaking point
- The troll scene -- tension resolved.


After this, Ron and Hermione settled into the "friendly bickering" relationship which would carry them through the next book and a half:

- The bickering-about-the-egg-hatching scene -- established the dynamics of their relationship.
- The Devil's Snare scene ("are you a witch or not?") -- showed how they could counteract each other's weaknesses (repeated lesson of the troll scene).
- The Valentines Day scene and the other Lockhart scenes -- gentle romantic foreshadowing.
- The slug scene -- friendship strengthening.
- The Polyjuice Potion scenes -- bickering and teamwork.
- Various scenes in which Ron worried about Petrified Hermione, tried to fight Malfoy, etc. -- more friendship strengthening.

Throughout this period, the R-Hr subplot was used primarily to articulate the two sides of every issue facing Harry and secondarily for comic effect. The narrative tension was one of conciliation of adversaries, but in a low-key background way.


In the third book, however, the tension surged much higher and their adversarial relationship was again brought into the foreground:
- The pet store scene -- set up the Cat/Rat conflict.
- The train scene -- set up the safe-Harry/happy-Harry (Hogsmeade, Firebolt) conflict.
- The Great Hall scene after Divination -- set up the sceptic/superstition conflict.

Various scenes steadily escalated the conflict:
- Crookshanks eating a spider (Cat/Rat)
- Hogsmeade scene when Harry shows up (safe/happy)
- Christmas morning (safe/happy, Cat/Rat)
- Christmas evening (safe/happy)
- Dead Scabbers scene (Cat/Rat)
- Post-Quidditch celebration/crying (Cat/Rat)
- Reading Hogsmeade notice (safe/happy)


While a few scenes provided reminders of the real friendship beneath:
- The Diagon Alley/ ice cream scene
- Time of their life in Hogsmeade
- Scenes of Ron's interest in Hermione's schedule
- Ron defending Hermione from Snape
- The scene with Hagrid talking about Hermione.

Finally, the conflict comes to a climax and is resolved with complete conciliation:
- Hug scene
- Working on Buckbeak's appeal
- Hitting Malfoy scene
- Fetching Marauder's Map scene and compliment
- Scene with Pigwidgeon and Crookshanks on train.

At this point, most of the R-Hr issues have been settled -- Cat/Rat, Firebolt, and even skepticism vs. superstition.


However, In Book 4, Hermione and Ron immediately enter a new cycle of conflict, again in the foreground. This cycle concerned house-elves, Snape/Crouch Sr., and, eventually, romance:
- Winky/Dark Mark scene -- introduces house-elf conflict and Snape/Crouch Sr. conflict.
- *coughLockhartcough* scene -- introduces romantic conflict (suggests R-->Hr)
- Fleur bouillabaisse scene -- introduces romantic conflict (suggests Hr-->R)

The house-elf conflict is escalated with a rich variety of scenes, including:
- Various eating/not-eating scenes.
- SPEW badge scene.
- Two kitchen scenes.
- Scene with Sirius.

The Snape/Crouch Jr. conflict is developed to a lesser extent:
- Scene with Sirius.
- Banishing cushions scene.

As before, these conflicts are tempered with scenes of friendship and good feeling:
- Densaugeo scene.
- Rita Skeeter worrying scenes.
- Preparing Harry for tasks scenes.
- Worrying about Harry scenes.

Finally, with the Yule Ball announcement, romantic issues come to the forefront and begin to affect all aspects of the Ron-Hermione subplot. Non-romantic conflict morphs into romantic conflict.

R/Hr (Books 4 and 5)
A rich variety of romantically-charged scenes unmistakeably changes the tenor of Ron's and Hermione's friendship:
- Troll scene - Hermione expresses interest in Ron's Yule Ball intentions.
- You're a girl scene - Ron expresses interest Hermione's Yule Ball intentions.
- Fleur/teeth scene - Ron's curiousity and noticing Hermione's teeth, Hermione's continued dislike of Fleur.
- Snowball scene - again Ron's curiousity.
- Vicky scene - Ron's jealousy comes out into open.
- "Next time ask me scene" - Hermione responds.
- Viktor diving/armless figure scene - tension subsides slightly.
- Fleur kiss scene - Hermione's jealousy.
- Padma scene - possible Hermione jealousy.
- Scarlet woman/Bulgaria/pestle-pounding scene - tension increases again.
- Fleur's and Krum's goodbyes - tension not resolved but decreased.

It is noteworthy that at the end Book 4 -- in contrast to the two previous cycles of heightened Ron-Hermione tension, the conflict is NOT resolved, though it is slightly relieved by the Krum autograph/smile sequence. Two dangling open questions remain -- will Hermione go to Bulgaria? and will Ron ask Hermione first next time?. Also, very strikingly, the House-elf issue is NOT resolved, and will remain a source of conflict in the next books. This is a conflict/resolution cycle that is continuing.


In Book 5, however, the R/Hr conflict is again pushed into the background, as it was from the middle of Book 1 through the end of Book 2. Again, Ron and Hermione settle into a holding pattern, this time one of cautious camaraderie with muted bickering. Rather than interspersing scenes of conflict with scenes of friendly warmth, the two emotions are now normally expressed in the same scene, giving a quieter, more mature feeling to the conflict that still exists.

Now the primary narrative tension driving the relationship in this book has changed from conflict conciliation to a character growth dynamic of Ron proving himself in Hermione's eyes (and his own). This dynamic is introduced in the Prefect Badge scene, when Hermione inadvertently hurts Ron's feelings very badly:
- Prefect Badge scene - introduces Ron's insecurity about being a Prefect.
- Train scene - Malfoy's insults and Hermione's anger.
- Fred and George Wheezes scene.

The Prefect Badge directly leads to Ron getting a broom which leads to him trying out for Quidditch. Again, Hermione inadvertently hurts Ron's feelings about this as well:
- Quidditch party scene - Hermione falls asleep.
- Post-practice scene - Ron thinks Hermione is assuming he was lousy.

At this point Ron has been put in a two-down position -- embarrassed in front of Hermione about both the Prefect badge and about his supremely awful performance at Quidditch.

The rest of the book is a slow rising action for him, expressed primarily in relation to Hermione:
- Percy letter scene.
- Pre-Quidditch kiss scene.
- Firewhiskey scene.
- Scene after Ron's first game.
- "My happiness doesn't depend on..." scene.
- Malfoy taking points showdown.
- Walking to Quidditch game scene.
- 'Weasley is our King' scene.
- Ruffled hair/Grawp explanation scene.

This narrative dynamic reaches partial resolution at the end of the book, with Ron helping win the Quidditch Cup and putting that aside to help Hermione and Harry with Grawp. However, there is no resolution between Ron and Hermione on either the Quidditch issue or the Prefect issue, and I would expect this narrative dynamic to continue into the next book, especially given Rowling's teaser about whether the next captain will allow Ron to remain on the team.


Also in Book 5, Ron and Hermione continue to battle out the unresolved issues of the previous year -- house-elves and romance.

The house-elf scenes include:
- Introduction of Kreacher.
- "I'll sponsor you to shut up about SPEW" scene.
- elf-cap scene.
- woolly bladder scene.
- Kreacher's Christmas present scene.

The romance conflict is primarily on the same issue as the previous year -- Ron's masculine insensitivity and immaturity (unreadiness for romance). The Krum factor also continues to cause conflict. Scenes involved include:
- Cho/Tornadoes scene.
- First Viktor Krum scene.
- Post-kiss "insensitive wart" scene.
- Krum letter and "what does she see in him" scenes.
- Dragging to the library scene.
- "You're as bad as Ron"/"you should write a book" scene.

Just as at the end of Book 4, neither of these issues has been resolved in any way, either plot-wise or emotionally. The cycle of conflict-and-resolution is evidently not yet complete.

Also -- incredibly -- we still have no answer to either the Bulgaria question or the "next time there's a ball" question. We have every indication from canon and from Rowling's interview answer that both these questions will be addressed in future books.

****************************************************************************************************

I am sorry for the length of that! I tried to be as brief as I could, but JKR has devoted so much page time to the relationship between Ron and Hermione that it is hard to squeeze it down. I'd like to clarify that I don't consider any of the above to be analysis or theory, but just simple observation of plot-lines from the books which would be seen by any reader.

An additional question I’d like to ask is how you see a R/hr romantic subplot feeding into the main plot – how would R/hr contribute/ affect Harry’s hero journey and his fight against Voldemort? (For me, this is ultimately the most important consideration). The thing is (and I know many would be surprised), I can actually conceive of the way a romantic R/Hr subplot could work but I am interested in your view of it.
I will have to address this in a separate post. Obviously, the R-Hr R/Hr subplot has already contributed to and affected Harry's hero journey and the fight against Voldemort greatly in the five books we have so far. The simplest assumption to make would be that it will continue to do so similarly in the future.

[Corbin Dallas]

R/Hr (Books 4 and 5)
A rich variety of romantically-charged scenes unmistakeably changes the tenor of Ron's and Hermione's friendship:
- Troll scene - Hermione expresses interest in Ron's Yule Ball intentions.
- You're a girl scene - Ron expresses interest Hermione's Yule Ball intentions.
- Fleur/teeth scene - Ron's curiousity and noticing Hermione's teeth, Hermione's continued dislike of Cho.
Actually, if I may be so bold, I think you mean FLeur in this instance(where I bolded), long post, lot of typing and as we saw earlier I'm not one to be criticizing spelling or Typing, just think you mean Fleur for book 4, good post, interesting points too...
and Del thanks for clearing that up earlier, I do believe JK and think she is being honest with us, oh and I forget how smart you sometimes are when your not being lazy, as you admit to-don't worry I am too ;) , I really am not qualified to talk about the Jungian stuff, mrs bombadil in some past versions did though....
CD

[Ginevra Weasley]

Any shipping, whether it'll be supported by canon in the future or not, is (or should be, anyway) based entirely (from a romance perspective) on what happens after Book 3 (with respect to Harry) and Book 4 (with respect to Ron and Hermione). Anything before that just established the most important aspect of the Trio's relationship- that they're best friends, and willing to do anything for each other.

Sorry, I just had to say that: I get tired of other forums where people bring up shipping points from PS and CoS all the time.

[Polychrome]

You know, I've been pondering something lately. If I remember right, Mary Grandpre had a head-start on illustrating Order of the Phoenix, and posters with the cover were all over bookstores offering pre-orders as soon as it was announced.

Now, how and why she was given this head start is anybody's guess, but I'm curious. If the cover of Half-Blood Prince showed something rediculously and incredibly shippy (well, I doubt it'll look like a Playboy cover or anything) that declared the opposite of the ship you sit on, would you jump ship, or wait for the book itself to explain? I ask this of everybody.

[GilyAnn]

Which leads us right back to 'why we should believe Rowling when she promotes R/Hr'. She has no trouble giving clues and direct answers (even unprompted answers!) about them - - however, it is Harry's love interest that she wants to keep secret. Not Ron's or Hermione's. Harry's.

Absolutely! I think Icekat has a very good point. R/Hr love live are not a mystery mainly because they are not the hero's of the story. Harry is the hero and his story is the one who JKR appears to want to keep hidding.


Gily Ann

[Jadecmn]

I think Harry and Hermione will get together just because they understand one another better and work better together

When have you ever liked anyone because you worked well with them, if the world were like this there would be no failed relationships.


Or, maybe, if Harry had feelings for Cho it would be out of character for him to have feelings for Hermione. There are still two books left for him to have a relationship with Hermione now that in OotP we know that he is over Cho

Yes, but why would JKR spend so much time hinting at a relationship between Ron and Hermione, just to say in the last two books, which are suppossed to be focusing on the war, "Harry now likes Hermione and despite what we thought she's decided she likes Harry too." It just doesn't make sense, if they were to get together in the last two books I just think there should be a better basis for it in the first five books.

You are welcome to your opinion. I just don't see it because IMO Luna will be putting moves on our favorite red haired boy. :eyebrows:

I actually hope Harry likes Luna, 'cause I'm so much like her, although I have a feeling that he'll end up with Ginny.

The interesting thing is when they are together without him, according to the text Hermione is going "spare" over Harry. (OotP US Edition page 63) They also appear to have been spending a lot of time discussing how to deal with Harry's reaction to things. In addition I wonder where Hermione went to look up all that stuff on underage magic.

Maybe...

After re-reading the books I have to agree. There is not as much arguing as there seemed to be at first, but the arguments they do have seem serious and they are not resolved, just ignored. Doesn't bode well for the future IMO. Harry and Hermione seem to compromise and move on.

Maybe they are not resolved because they agree to disagree? Yeah I know, that's probably not true.

Besides it seems to me that sometimes when Ron and Hermione argue, Harry agrees with Ron, but keeps his mouth shut.

Either way I don't think that Hermione would be good for Harry, she's much too serious, and worries too much and I think that he needs someone who will help him relax, that's why I think it's going to be Ginny. Which is kind of why I think Ron would be good for Hermione, he'll help her relax.


A belated wish for a good night. :tu:

Thank you, and I did!! :rotfl:

[Anakin Solo]

Argue with your ship about it.

Harmonians believe, without deviance, that Harry will get with HErmione. After that, the rules are not so stringent.

[obsessedwithHP]

Oh i dunno...PoA was the starting point for Harry and Hermione to do things together without Ron there. He is an important part of the trio but at times of great danger he seems left in the backround by JK and he is filled in later on what happned.
Its almost like they do this stuff together to make them stronger, they protect each other and stuff. Mabie in Books 6 and 7 we Harry and Hermione go off in different relationships but they get jealous of each others partner and end up together? heh- wishfull thinking mabie :D
mmm Daniel radcliffe :drool:

[enid]

Which leads us right back to 'why we should believe Rowling when she promotes R/Hr'. She has no trouble giving clues and direct answers (even unprompted answers!) about them - - however, it is Harry's love interest that she wants to keep secret. Not Ron's or Hermione's. Harry's.




Absolutely! I think Icekat has a very good point. R/Hr love live are not a mystery mainly because they are not the hero's of the story. Harry is the hero and his story is the one who JKR appears to want to keep hidding.


Gily Ann

BINGO!!!! Did I say that loud enough!

What a great lead-in to what I want to ask you all. I have no doubt it's been discussed before, but I'm tired of the two ocean liners taking over the thread.

What do you all think of the emphasis that was put on Susan Bones in the first movie, when she was being sorted. The music accentuated her...they even gave her a sort of glow. You think maybe that was a Harry/Susan relationship clue?...or do you think it denoted something of great importance we have yet to learn about her. I really don't think it was to emphasize the
tragic circumstances of her parent's death, as Neville and several other students should have gotten the same treatment then. Steve Kloves, and others clearly know something of great importance about her.

[Corbin Dallas]

BINGO!!!! Did I say that loud enough!

What a great lead-in to what I want to ask you all. I have no doubt it's been discussed before, but I'm tired of the two ocean liners taking over the thread.

What do you all think of the emphasis that was put on Susan Bones in the first movie, when she was being sorted. The music accentuated her...they even gave her a sort of glow. You think maybe that was a Harry/Susan relationship clue?...or do you think it denoted something of great importance we have yet to learn about her. I really don't think it was to emphasize the
tragic circumstances of her parent's death, as Neville and several other students should have gotten the same treatment then. Steve Kloves, and others clearly know something of great importance about her.
Enid if I remember right, the girl playing Susan was C. Columbus' daughter...
CD
But if you would like to debate Chocolate and Moonlight I'm game, just wish McBeth was here, she really likes Moonlight...

[McBeth]

Enid if I remember right, the girl playing Susan was C. Columbus' daughter...
CD
But if you would like to debate Chocolate and Moonlight I'm game, just wish McBeth was here, she really likes Moonlight...

This is scary . . . I just got here . . . :nc:


What do you all think of the emphasis that was put on Susan Bones in the first movie, when she was being sorted. The music accentuated her...they even gave her a sort of glow. You think maybe that was a Harry/Susan relationship clue?...or do you think it denoted something of great importance we have yet to learn about her. I really don't think it was to emphasize the
tragic circumstances of her parent's death, as Neville and several other students should have gotten the same treatment then. Steve Kloves, and others clearly know something of great importance about her.

It's possible, but I'm pretty sure the emphasis was because she's Chris Columbus's (the director) daughter. HMS Patronus is a cool ship, though, just not much back-up to it. I always did like my Eloise Midgen/Harry and Susan/Harry ships before Luna came along. :elaugh:

[Corbin Dallas]

This is scary . . . I just got here . . . :nc:
you know , my head has been pounding for a bit, then i post and you show up McBeth, I must conclude you are spying on my mind much Like Riddle did to Harry, gahhhhh
CD
merry holidays to you too ;)

[enid]

Enid if I remember right, the girl playing Susan was C. Columbus' daughter...
CD
But if you would like to debate Chocolate and Moonlight I'm game, just wish McBeth was here, she really likes Moonlight...


I aways thought his daughter was the girl who played Ginny. Oh well
So, are you suggesting she was highlighted because she is his daughter?

Explain these ships to me again...what is chocolate and moonlight?

[Corbin Dallas]

I aways thought his daughter was the girl who played Ginny. Oh well
So, are you suggesting she was highlighted because she is his daughter?

Explain these ships to me again...what is chocolate and moonlight?
Chocolate is Harry and Ginny
Moonlight is Harry and Luna
yeah that's pretty much why in the movie, meeting Madm Bones in the Ministry and finding out that susan is her niece and that they have lost family to Voldemort always made me think that Madam Bones was going to replace Fudge when it was revealed that there would be a new Minister in HBP.
OFF Topic, did you notice that Madam Bones caught on that Mrs. Figg didn't see the Dementor attack?
CD

[McBeth]

CD, believe me, you don't want to know what goes on in my mind - it's so jumbled up, it'd drive anyone crazy! :elaugh:

I aways thought his daughter was the girl who played Ginny. Oh well
So, are you suggesting she was highlighted because she is his daughter?

They look a bit similar, but Bonnie Wright plays Ginny Weasley. :)

I'm pretty sure Susan was highlighted for that reason - she also was sitting beside Hermione in DADA in CoS, so she gets to be in the "spotlight" a lot more than the other extras.

Explain these ships to me again...what is chocolate and moonlight?

Chocolate is Harry/Ginny, and Moonlight is Harry/Luna. :D

[Laufa]

Hermione, Luna and Ginny could all teach Harry something. However, IMO, Luna is the one who would be able to teach him the most. I'm not making the other girls roles any less; and in order for Luna to teach Harry they won't have to have a relationship.

Luna is the only member of the hex who has any clue as to how Harry feels. She manages to talk about Sirius to him, in her own style, and she gives him hope. However, that scene (at the end of OotP) has been left unresolved.
I do belive the only person to resolve it is Luna.
What are those voices behind the veil, and what does it mean concerning Sirius?

Luna could also teach Harry to look outside the box. He's ben best friends with closed-mind Hermione for 5 years, and here comes this girl who has been described as the anti-Hermione.
Why do we need a anti-Hermione? Why does Harry need her? Or is she perhaps there to teach Hermione a lesson?

Luna's role is only going to get bigger. We still know little about her charachter, and we don't know everything she knows. People seem quick to deny H/L, but the ship has got alot of canon in only one, unresolved, scene.

Love,
Eyrún

PS. I also found it very cute when he watched her go and felt the knot in his stomach lessen! Somehow, to me, it seemed romantic. :)

[McBeth]

PS. I also found it very cute when he watched her go and felt the knot in his stomach lessen! Somehow, to me, it seemed romantic. :)

First off, good post! :tu:

Second, I know exactly what you mean. When I read that scene for the first time, it literally blew me away - because it was like Harry was being sentimental or something. That reaction was really odd - or it could be just ol' Jo dropping us hints. :agree:

[Jadecmn]

Lafua, I like that post, I never thought about it that way before!

[terese36]

Hermione, Luna and Ginny could all teach Harry something. However, IMO, Luna is the one who would be able to teach him the most. I'm not making the other girls roles any less; and in order for Luna to teach Harry they won't have to have a relationship.

Luna is the only member of the hex who has any clue as to how Harry feels. She manages to talk about Sirius to him, in her own style, and she gives him hope. However, that scene (at the end of OotP) has been left unresolved.
I do belive the only person to resolve it is Luna.
What are those voices behind the veil, and what does it mean concerning Sirius?

Luna could also teach Harry to look outside the box. He's ben best friends with closed-mind Hermione for 5 years, and here comes this girl who has been described as the anti-Hermione.
Why do we need a anti-Hermione? Why does Harry need her? Or is she perhaps there to teach Hermione a lesson?

Luna's role is only going to get bigger. We still know little about her charachter, and we don't know everything she knows. People seem quick to deny H/L, but the ship has got alot of canon in only one, unresolved, scene.

Love,
Eyrún

PS. I also found it very cute when he watched her go and felt the knot in his stomach lessen! Somehow, to me, it seemed romantic. :)

I agree completely with everything written. Luna is the opposite of Hermione and she is the best girl to help and understand Harry, with Ginny a somewhat close second. (Remember the chocolate scene). She helped him deal with Sirius's death and is the most likely person for Harry to tell about the prophecy. Harry has realised that his best friends aren't always the best people to help him deal with his problems. And since Luna has helped him with Sirius falling through the Veil, it would make sense for him to go to Luna about the prophecy. Of course, Ginny and Hermione are important, too, but Luna seems to me the girl Harry would most likely go out with, or least share things with.

[enid]

CD, believe me, you don't want to know what goes on in my mind - it's so jumbled up, it'd drive anyone crazy! :elaugh:



They look a bit similar, but Bonnie Wright plays Ginny Weasley. :)

I'm pretty sure Susan was highlighted for that reason - she also was sitting beside Hermione in DADA in CoS, so she gets to be in the "spotlight" a lot more than the other extras.



Chocolate is Harry/Ginny, and Moonlight is Harry/Luna. :D


Interesting that JKR would sanction that! Well that certainly throws one more dark cloud over the H/Hr ship. They really liked all that groping action at the end of azkaban...but as the directors can not be entirely trusted....

I've been building a new ship...well, it's more like a yacht, actually. I've christened it "Davies Blonde Girl" Its a coffee shop...Harry notices she's pretty...JKR keeps mentioning her, putting more emphasis on her the Davies...
I think it could happen!

[McBeth]

I've been building a new ship...well, it's more like a yacht, actually. I've christened it "Davies Blonde Girl" Its a coffee shop...Harry notices she's pretty...JKR keeps mentioning her, putting more emphasis on her the Davies...
I think it could happen!

It's possible, but she seems a bit nosy to me. She kept looking over at Harry and Cho when Ms. Human-Water-Hose turned on the spicket. ;)

[Corbin Dallas]

Hermione, Luna and Ginny could all teach Harry something. However, IMO, Luna is the one who would be able to teach him the most. I'm not making the other girls roles any less; and in order for Luna to teach Harry they won't have to have a relationship.

Luna is the only member of the hex who has any clue as to how Harry feels. She manages to talk about Sirius to him, in her own style, and she gives him hope. However, that scene (at the end of OotP) has been left unresolved.
I do belive the only person to resolve it is Luna.
What are those voices behind the veil, and what does it mean concerning Sirius?

Luna could also teach Harry to look outside the box. He's ben best friends with closed-mind Hermione for 5 years, and here comes this girl who has been described as the anti-Hermione.
Why do we need a anti-Hermione? Why does Harry need her? Or is she perhaps there to teach Hermione a lesson?

Luna's role is only going to get bigger. We still know little about her charachter, and we don't know everything she knows. People seem quick to deny H/L, but the ship has got alot of canon in only one, unresolved, scene.

Love,
Eyrún

PS. I also found it very cute when he watched her go and felt the knot in his stomach lessen! Somehow, to me, it seemed romantic. :)
You know for me the whole anti-Hermione thing is what sinks Luna for me and me alone, why? Well first I see that they are opposites but equal in that for their opposites, they are on the same circle, I agree Luna will help Harry with the veil and the voices but there is someone far more suited to help Harry with the loss of Sirius and no its not Ginny it's Molly, i won't go into why here-unless you really want me too ;).
Now in a chat earlier this year Jo mentioned that ginny will not be mute infront of Harry anymore and she has a "Forceful Personality" and always has, Jo refers to Ron in COS. here's a definition fof forceful from dictionary.com
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=forceful
adj 1: characterized by or full of force or strength (often but not necessarily physical); "a forceful speaker"; "a forceful personality"; "forceful measures"; "a forceful plan for peace" [ant: forceless] 2: forceful and definite in expression or action; "the document contained a particularly emphatic guarantee of religious liberty" [syn: emphatic]
Ron's assertion was that Ginny normally never shuts up and I'm wondering what she will talk to Harry about? Quidditch, sure they both play, Pranks, sure they both like Fred and George and both are respected by Fred and George, Ron and Hermione, sure isn't everyone, and with this dialogue and learning more about each other what will develop?
CD
oh and as statement of principle, I like Moonlight, I just prefer Red-heads, McBeth will confirm my friendly status to Moonlight ;) ...

[Laufa]

Thanks for the compliments, people :)

I do think Harry has realized that his two best friends don't have the asnwer to anything. He's been shying away from them for a whole year, not telling them things unless he has to, or simply lying. Why doesn't he tell them about Occlumency? Why didn't he tell them about Umbridge?

I think Harry needs to broaden his horizons and seek help in others. The prophecy is probably something he'll tell Ron and Hermione about first, but their reactions will mark something special. I'm not sure if he'll tell Luna or Ginny about it straight away. As of now, I don't really see them as his 'nearest and dearest'.

I just know there's more to know about Luna, her past and her knowledge and her purpose in the books. Because she's not just a weird, ditzy girl - she's already proven that.

Love,
Eyrún

ETA: CD, I agree with Hermione and Luna being opposites but equal. Actually I don't ship Moonlight, and I think Chocolate is more likely to happen, but there's something about Harry and Luna which just blows me away. I guess it lies in Luna's charachter, I adore her, but I'm still Harry-shipless and probably will be until HBP is published (in the year 2028 :( )

[xray]

What do you all think of the emphasis that was put on Susan Bones in the first movie, when she was being sorted. The music accentuated her...they even gave her a sort of glow. You think maybe that was a Harry/Susan relationship clue?...or do you think it denoted something of great importance we have yet to learn about her. I really don't think it was to emphasize the
tragic circumstances of her parent's death, as Neville and several other students should have gotten the same treatment then. Steve Kloves, and others clearly know something of great importance about her.Because the dimwitted girl playing Susan Bones was the director's daughter. If you look at the 2nd movie closely, she's in almost every scene. I call her Blinky. Look at the greenhouse 3 scene when Hermione is answering the question about the Mandrakes. Susan Bones, aka Blinky Columbus, is blinking away a mile a minute. Any other girl would have been removed from the scene. Oh geeze it makes me puke thinking about her. Directors should NEVER be allowed to cast their own children.
They look a bit similar, but Bonnie Wright plays Ginny Weasley. :)Oh GEEBUS! Bite your tongue! Look a bit similar? Well, they're both children but that's all I'll give you on similarity :p

xray

[enid]

It's possible, but she seems a bit nosy to me. She kept looking over at Harry and Cho when Ms. Human-Water-Hose turned on the spicket. ;)

Yeah! I agree, but I had some thoughts on that. The scene is a little peculiar...Davies asked Cho out, and then he is there with another girl who "stares". I wonder if Davies used a Love potion to get that girl with him, and make Cho jealous. The scene is remenicent of Lockheart...the cherubs... pink confetti. Lockheart advised using a love potion. Wonder if a love potion has an odd effect... Anyway, they are only sitting a foot and a half away. I thought the whole "12" thing was suppossed to be a clue.

ALL ABOARD "DAVIES BLONDE GIRL"!!!! whoa...that doesn't sound good. :huh:

[Corbin Dallas]

Because the dimwitted girl playing Susan Bones was the director's daughter. If you look at the 2nd movie closely, she's in almost every scene. I call her Blinky. Look at the greenhouse 3 scene when Hermione is answering the question about the Mandrakes. Susan Bones, aka Blinky Columbus, is blinking away a mile a minute. Any other girl would have been removed from the scene. Oh geeze it makes me puke thinking about her. Directors should NEVER be allowed to cast their own children.
Oh GEEBUS! Bite your tongue! Look a bit similar? Well, they're both children but that's all I'll give you on similarity :p

xray
Careful xray, without Paul Sorvino we wouldn't have Mira, then again there's Sophia Coppola and Nick Cage(ok nephew but still)...
CD
that cat's evil i tell ya, EVIL!
PS
I thought the whole "12" thing was suppossed to be a clue.
Enid there was a 12 in that scene, where? Seriously post the text if you have it, 12s are clues...

[enid]

Careful xray, without Paul Sorvino we wouldn't have Mira, then again there's Sophia Coppola and Nick Cage(ok nephew but still)...
CD
that cat's evil i tell ya, EVIL!
PS

Enid there was a 12 in that scene, where? Seriously post the text if you have it, 12s are clues...

"They sat down at the last remaining table, which was situated in the steamy window. Roger Davies, The Ravenclaw Quidditch Captain, was sitting about a FOOT AND A HALF away with a pretty blonde girl"
Think there's something there?

[xray]

She manages to talk about Sirius to him, in her own style, and she gives him hope. However, that scene (at the end of OotP) has been left unresolved.Sorry Laufa, but I strongly disagree. That scene has been resolved and quite well. Harry was feeling sorry for himself as if he was the only person in the whole world who had problems. Luna made him realize, albeit unknowingly, that he was not the only person in the whole world who suffered the loss of a loved one.
What are those voices behind the veil, and what does it mean concerning Sirius?

Luna could also teach Harry to look outside the box. He's ben best friends with closed-mind Hermione for 5 years, and here comes this girl who has been described as the anti-Hermione.This I agree with somewhat, but I think Hermione will be the one to learn how to look "outside the box" via Luna. Have you read my theory on Luna being the new Mafalda? In short, I think that Luna was created for some of the purpose as had been planned for Mafalda who was whitewashed from the pages of the books. Luna will play the role of an anti-Hermione, IMO.
Why do we need a anti-Hermione? Why does Harry need her? Or is she perhaps there to teach Hermione a lesson?

Luna's role is only going to get bigger. We still know little about her charachter, and we don't know everything she knows. I think Hermione needs some training up in the people business. I like Luna's character and I hope she plays a bigger role (anti-Hermione!) because I think it will be written so well and be so enjoyable to read. But I seriously doubt that Harry will be attracted to Luna in the slightest bit. I'd bet money on it. Even Rowling says that Luna is "out to lunch" and Harry hasn't shown any interest in the girl whatsoever. He did feel pity though and relationships cannot be built on pity.

xray

[connielane]

Maybe I'm wrong but aren't interviews known weeks before they actually happen? I mean it must be planed at some points. So uhm I assume that this interview was probably very well hold on the 20th just not at 9pm but at midday or so. Then you're assuming wrongly. It couldn't possibly have been that day. Features like that take weeks to put together. Facts have to be verified, clips have to be gathered and edited, and Couric had to have time to travel to Edinburgh, come back to New York and record the voice over material. I know you'd rather not believe anything I have to say, but this is just a fact of television production.You know that I won't actuall buy it just because you say it, just like that. Aside this my theory isn: mood swing. Its a logical assuming that JKR didn't talk about actual events in her books but about an assuming build on Couric unbased questions, pretty unprepared for a reporter, don't you think?I think we've strayed so far off the original topic that we can't even see the road at this point. So I'm not going through this anymore with you. I wrote: amazedI know what you wrote. I read it. I was attempting to read between the lines, since (as you have argued many times yourself) what people say/write is not always what they mean. You may :rotfl: Thank you.

[Corbin Dallas]

"They sat down at the last remaining table, which was situated in the steamy window. Roger Davies, The Ravenclaw Quidditch Captain, was sitting about a FOOT AND A HALF away with a pretty blonde girl"
Think there's something there?
oh thought you meant an actual 12 like #12 Grimmauld Place, or the twelve rooms in the spinning chamber in the DoM, sorry I don't think 1/2 counts as a 12, but who knows, I'm not omnipotent, heck I can't speel most of the time ;)
CD

ETA: CD, I agree with Hermione and Luna being opposites but equal. Actually I don't ship Moonlight, and I think Chocolate is more likely to happen, but there's something about Harry and Luna which just blows me away. I guess it lies in Luna's charachter, I adore her, but I'm still Harry-shipless and probably will be until HBP is published (in the year 2028 )
I get you and understand, Luna is cool, i like people who think out-of-the-box, makes me feel better when others snub their noses at conventional thinking too, oh and another Ginny thing, she can be blunt with Harry like Hermione-Christmas, but soothing like Luna-Library, and this balance would be an awesome thing for Harry, granted my opinion only :D
CD

[enid]

oh thought you meant an actual 12 like #12 Grimmauld Place, or the twelve rooms in the spinning chamber in the DoM, sorry I don't think 1/2 counts as a 12, but who knows, I'm not omnipotent, heck I can't speel most of the time ;)
CD


I get you and understand, Luna is cool, i like people who think out-of-the-box, makes me feel better when others snub their noses at conventional thinking too, oh and another Ginny thing, she can be blunt with Harry like Hermione-Christmas, but soothing like Luna-Library, and this balance would be an awesome thing for Harry, granted my opinion only :D
CD


I thought JKR used all manner of "12's" A foot being twelve inches....she's used foot before. I consider the extra 6 inches to be an even BIGGER hint. ;)

I like to think that all discussion has ended because people are contemplating the profound impact of my discovery.....is the "DAVIES BLONDE GIRL" sea worthy?

[Laufa]

Sorry Laufa, but I strongly disagree. That scene has been resolved and quite well. Harry was feeling sorry for himself as if he was the only person in the whole world who had problems. Luna made him realize, albeit unknowingly, that he was not the only person in the whole world who suffered the loss of a loved one.

Yes, I think I worded it badly - I meant that what Luna was talking about hasn't been resolved. Not Harry's feelings in that scene.

This I agree with somewhat, but I think Hermione will be the one to learn how to look "outside the box" via Luna. Have you read my theory on Luna being the new Mafalda? In short, I think that Luna was created for some of the purpose as had been planned for Mafalda who was whitewashed from the pages of the books. Luna will play the role of an anti-Hermione, IMO.

I completely agree. Give us a new look on things; give Harry a new look on things, and, most importantly, like you said, give Hermione a new look on things :)

I think Hermione needs some training up in the people business. I like Luna's character and I hope she plays a bigger role (anti-Hermione!) because I think it will be written so well and be so enjoyable to read. But I seriously doubt that Harry will be attracted to Luna in the slightest bit. I'd bet money on it. Even Rowling says that Luna is "out to lunch" and Harry hasn't shown any interest in the girl whatsoever. He did feel pity though and relationships cannot be built on pity.

Well, if H/L does happen I don't think it'll be based on pity but on shared experience. But as has been said many times in these threads, shared experience isn't enough to fall in love with someone (just like fighting well together isn't the key).
I agree that in OotP, Harry had a very negative viewpoint of Luna's looks. I'm interested to see if it changes in HBP, because one of the things which make me wonder about Chocolate are Ginny's descriptions.

Well, back to blodge I go...

Love,
Eyrún

xray[/QUOTE]

[McBeth]

I like to think that all discussion has ended because people are contemplating the profound impact of my discovery.....is the "DAVIES BLONDE GIRL" sea worthy?

Perhaps. ;)

I can't say I'd sail on it, though . . . I'm too wrapped up with Moonlight, and besides, the only other ship that concerns Harry that I really like is HMS Facial Features (Eloise Midgen/Harry). Yup, I always ship Harry with underdogs. :p

Of course, Chocolate wouldn't kill me . . . but I'm trying to shy away from sweets right now. :D


I agree that in OotP, Harry had a very negative viewpoint of Luna's looks. I'm interested to see if it changes in HBP, because one of the things which make me wonder about Chocolate are Ginny's descriptions.

Actually, if you go back a look, Harry didn't think of Luna negatively once after "The Fight and Flight." Frankly, I believe Harry's view of her changed in the DoM - I think he forgot about how "loony" she's supposed to be. And if he ever cares again about her dottiness, I'll be pretty surprised.

[AliciaCharlotte13]

I'm going to post my thoughts on this thread. If your read my signature, I'm a Heron shipper. I also support Moonlight and Chocolate, but my sig shows that I am more Chocolate than Moonlight. I agree that Luna would be a good girlfriend for harry and can make him feel better. But I think ginny is a slightly better chocie. That Choclate scene in the library has potential. But if Harry did end up with Luna, I will wholeheartedly support it and won't be disappointed. But I really want Chocolate to happen more that Moonlight. (Odd, considering that I like Luna slightly better than Ginny.)

P.S. Great signature, McBeth. You're really into the holiday spirt.

[enid]

Perhaps. ;)

I can't say I'd sail on it, though . . . I'm too wrapped up with Moonlight, and besides, the only other ship that concerns Harry that I really like is HMS Facial Features (Eloise Midgen/Harry). Yup, I always ship Harry with underdogs. :p

Considering my yacht is built with circumstancial evidence, I don't blame you for not wanting to step foot(12 inches) on it.

I'll do my best to hoist the sails, though!

Thanks for supporting the underdogs! :tu:

[GilyAnn]

BINGO!!!! Did I say that loud enough!

What a great lead-in to what I want to ask you all. I have no doubt it's been discussed before, but I'm tired of the two ocean liners taking over the thread.

What do you all think of the emphasis that was put on Susan Bones in the first movie, when she was being sorted. The music accentuated her...they even gave her a sort of glow. You think maybe that was a Harry/Susan relationship clue?...or do you think it denoted something of great importance we have yet to learn about her. I really don't think it was to emphasize the
tragic circumstances of her parent's death, as Neville and several other students should have gotten the same treatment then. Steve Kloves, and others clearly know something of great importance about her.

I have discuss the subject of H/SB before and I have failed to see where JKR has given hints for that ship. Susan Bones had family torture by Voldemort followers but that story line came to us now in OotP (If I'm not mistaken) before that it was known from an interview. If JKR wanted to have at some point Harry dating Susan Bones then I have failed to see where she has put those clues to be honest. Susan Bones minimal story line seem to be on the line of her family torture and her house but not with Harry in terms of romance. Hope that came out better than it sounds.

Luna is the only member of the hex who has any clue as to how Harry feels. She manages to talk about Sirius to him, in her own style, and she gives him hope. However, that scene (at the end of OotP) has been left unresolved.
I do belive the only person to resolve it is Luna.
What are those voices behind the veil, and what does it mean concerning Sirius?

I'm sorry but I just fail to see where Luna is the only person in the hex that has any clue for what Harry is going thru. Just because Luna lost her mother and Harry his parent's it doesn't mean that people like Ron or Ginny, who clearly says that she cares about Sirius as much as you, can't understand and feel how Harry feels. In fact Luna claims that she knows who Sirius was because Ginny told her. Obviously Ginny knows how much Sirius meant to Harry and passed on the information to Luna. Furthermore I fail to see Harry's pity on regards of Luna is actually a good thing for a relantionship.

Luna could also teach Harry to look outside the box. He's ben best friends with closed-mind Hermione for 5 years, and here comes this girl who has been described as the anti-Hermione.
Why do we need a anti-Hermione? Why does Harry need her? Or is she perhaps there to teach Hermione a lesson?

That is the problem Harry doesn't believe in Luna's ideas. Even after knowing that he also can see thestrals and that they both (along with Neville and Ginny) can hear voices in the veil, even then Harry is still refusing to acknoledge any of Luna ideas. I have said before but I will say it again. I fail to see a romantic plot about Luna, it's nothing personal and I love her character but if Luna's role is attached to someone it's her family and Ginny and I mean that in a non-romantic idea.

You know for me the whole anti-Hermione thing is what sinks Luna for me and me alone, why? Well first I see that they are opposites but equal in that for their opposites, they are on the same circle,

Yes Luna is the anti-hermione because their characters are on a different perspective. While Hermione is extremelly rational, Luna is 'out to lunch' which add on a very funny and interesting light on the story specially know that the twins will be gone.


Gily Ann

[luv2read]

My opinion of the original question is that I think Ron/Hermione is likely, I'd prefer Harry/Hermione and I think the better plot line would be what is in my signature. I also wonder if while it appears that it'll be Ron/Hermione in book 6, what if relationships change for book 7?

[Laufa]

I'm sorry but I just fail to see where Luna is the only person in the hex that has any clue for what Harry is going thru. Just because Luna lost her mother and Harry his parent's it doesn't mean that people like Ron or Ginny, who clearly says that she cares about Sirius as much as you, can't understand and feel how Harry feels. In fact Luna claims that she knows who Sirius was because Ginny told her. Obviously Ginny knows how much Sirius meant to Harry and passed on the information to Luna. Furthermore I fail to see Harry's pity on regards of Luna is actually a good thing for a relantionship.

Well, I do think Luna will be Harry's greatest help in overcoming the loss of Sirius. Ginny didn't know Sirius as well as Harry did, but I do agree she lost someone she cared for, too.
Why do I belive Luna will be the one to help?
Because she has accepted the loss of her mother, and can therefor give hope. Oh, and I'm talking about the stomach-knot lessening at the end of the scene; not the pity.



That is the problem Harry doesn't believe in Luna's ideas. Even after knowing that he also can see thestrals and that they both (along with Neville and Ginny) can hear voices in the veil, even then Harry is still refusing to acknoledge any of Luna ideas. I have said before but I will say it again. I fail to see a romantic plot about Luna, it's nothing personal and I love her character but if Luna's role is attached to someone it's her family and Ginny and I mean that in a non-romantic idea.

I agree that I'm not sure if H/L is a romantic plotline. But some people here are so shocked that people think of H/L, and I like to point out that the ship does indeed have canon :)
And Harry didn't think her ideas were far-fetched after the DoM, when she told him she heard the voices, too.

Oh, and don't excuse yourself for not seeing anything romantic about Luna. Women in these stories can have great, big, helpful plotlines without dating the main charachter (like Hermione, IMO, and Ginny and Luna for other people).

Oh, and GilyAnn, I'd like to add that I really enjoy your Chocolate posts. You're one of the people here who made me consider shipping Chocolate (I won't ship Harry until his feelings become more clear). Great job!!

Love,
Eyrún

[Jadecmn]

luv2 read,

Yes, but why would JKR spend so much time hinting at a relationship between Ron and Hermione, just to say in the last two books, which are suppossed to be focusing on the war, "Harry now likes Hermione and despite what we thought she's decided she likes Harry too." It just doesn't make sense, if they were to get together in the last two books I just think there should be a better basis for it in the first five books.

[Roy13]

Iagree that Ron and Hermione are meant for eah other. By the way, Jadecmn, your signature might be too long. I think there is a limit to how many lines you can have and you have exceeded that. Just to let you know so a you won't get in trouble with a mod.

[JordanL]

So you do think JKR is purposely lying and commiting illegal activity? Interesting.

I hopw you just forgot the [/sarcasm] tags.

[Jadecmn]

Iagree that Ron and Hermione are meant for eah other. By the way, Jadecmn, your signature might be too long. I think there is a limit to how many lines you can have and you have exceeded that. Just to let you know so a you won't get in trouble with a mod.


Thanks, I didn't know!!!!

[Darynthe]

When she used the word "obviously," I took that to mean that she had already given it away by "you are getting good" and "I was quite proud of that clue."


It wasn't completely clear in what context she used the word "obvious" there, in the Aberforth clue. At least not for me. Maybe she meant that it was obvious that she cannot say more, or obvious where the clue lead. I am sure she's also proud of her shipping clues, and even moreso given that when she said "isn't it obvious by now?" both Heron and Harmony claim their ship is obvious one and have good clues both for thinking so. (even if we dissmiss mutually each other's reasons!) That's the way it is. It's not obvious at all, that's why there is not only one ship.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Then you're assuming wrongly. It couldn't possibly have been that day. Features like that take weeks to put together. Facts have to be verified, clips have to be gathered and edited, and Couric had to have time to travel to Edinburgh, come back to New York and record the voice over material. I know you'd rather not believe anything I have to say, but this is just a fact of television production.

You know as good as I know it doesn't matter when this interview was made, what matters is that the security wasn't high enough even weeks before Bloomsbury official announced the countdown was a OotP copy found on a field after that (what happened at the beginning of May) it went worst. At some point even a lot of copies were stolen and people kept spoiling things. To all this comes the very fact that my argument got very little to do with JKR's mood on that day. Its all about the way how JKR is answering this question and how its to be understood. Like I already showed in detail, even in playing JKR like you put it, is JKR not saying H/Hr won't happen nor is she saying R/Hr will happen. Such an interview don't even exist, its quite funny that you based at this says that you are amazed that I still ship H/Hr. Its even wonder some that you say JKR is saying R/Hr happens or in my case H/Hr isn't, thats pretty much illogical.

I might add I don't have the fortune to get US-Channels or UK-Channels and can see an advertising of a show.

You must not assume that I got no idea how a show or clip is made just because I didn't know about an advertiseing in TV, what was anyway pointed out by Mrs_Bombadil Thank you, by the way. In fact, something x-ray could find too usefull, it might be an improvment if there is a bit more information says if we are talking about a Diane Rheem Interview it did help to know when was that Interview done also if you say this clip/interview with Couric was done earlier maybe a reasoning why exactly you think so.

I think we've strayed so far off the original topic that we can't even see the road at this point. So I'm not going through this anymore with you.

Well, you get off the road since I didn't start to argue whether her mood did anything to her answer on that interview or not. However I argued whether her answer can even count as negate of H/Hr, says if I expect H/Hr in book7 and she appears as if H/Hr in OotP is pretty nonsense does that negate my ship? Like said before it don't. Most members of HMS Harmony never argued that H/Hr would happen in book5 at all. But you brought up an interesting point: What if JKR had reacted about R/Hr like that? This is entier a different case because most Good-Shipper did expect this in OotP. Of course you'd jump ship after such a statement.

I know what you wrote. I read it. I was attempting to read between the lines, since (as you have argued many times yourself) what people say/write is not always what they mean.

Well, in this case you misread lines. Out of curiosity if you are that amazed that after such interviews by JKR still H/Hr shipper exist doesn't this mean ,I read between the lines here, that you should think of my kind that we are pretty *uhm how should I call it* in denial or just not able to read an interview? Of course I might misread this but I got always this strange feeling if I read some of your posts we must appear like hopeless fools to you. You know reminds bit at Umbridge how she speaks to Hagrid. Just my impression though I might have got the wrong one.

[mrs_bombadil]

I might add I don't have the fortune to get US-Channels or UK-Channels and can see an advertising of a show.

You must not assume that I got no idea how a show or clip is made just because I didn't know about an advertiseing in TV, what was anyway pointed out by Mrs_Bombadil Thank you, by the way. In fact, something x-ray could find too usefull, it might be an improvment if there is a bit more information says if we are talking about a Diane Rheem Interview it did help to know when was that Interview done also if you say this clip/interview with Couric was done earlier maybe a reasoning why exactly you think so.

I don't know for sure what you are meaning with your reference to my post...I just want to clarify that I never assumed you didn't know anything about producing television shows. I was talking about a couple of particular shows. The interview with Katie Couric could not have been taped that day was my point.

The Diane Rehn show however was a live radio broadcast. I am not trying to argue for or against anything specifically at this point, just continuing to add information that may or may not be useful.

[McBeth]

I agree that I'm not sure if H/L is a romantic plotline. But some people here are so shocked that people think of H/L, and I like to point out that the ship does indeed have canon :)

The trouble is with me, when I try to picture a romantic plotline concerning Harry and Hermione or Ginny, I really only see one thing = Romance. Personally, I don't think what Harry needs is sole romance - he also needs someone who has a grip on what he's going through currently. He's too moody to have a regular romance, and needs someone who's different, IMO.

I think any relationship Harry would have with Luna would break the mould. I can definitely invision a lot of long talks about deep and mysterious things and emotions, which, frankly, I think Harry needs more than anything, because he sort of went into No Talking Mode in OotP. I think the talk at the end of OotP is forshadowing of what's to come.

I can also see them having fun together. Luna's a free spirit, and I think freedom is just what Harry needs in the critical point in time. :agree:

However, I can see a relationship concerning Harry and Ginny closer to what I think Harry needs rather than a relationship with Hermione, as I think Ginny could provide some helpful conversation and some fun - but I do think the understanding factor is a big one, because, although she has somewhat an understanding of what Harry goes through with Voldemort, Harry's mind is on losing Sirius and being tied down by the Prophecy. I think Harry needs a more philosophical and I'm-going-to-go-blaze-a-new-trail-and-see-what-I-can-find kind of girlfriend. ;)

[FlyingPhoenix]

I don't know for sure what you are meaning with your reference to my post...I just want to clarify that I never assumed you didn't know anything about producing television shows. I was talking about a couple of particular shows. The interview with Katie Couric could not have been taped that day was my point.

The Diane Rehn show however was a live radio broadcast. I am not trying to argue for or against anything specifically at this point, just continuing to add information that may or may not be useful.

I was refering to your post where you stated this interview with Couric was advertised previous 20th June, with a few scene's from that interview. I'm not attacking you contrary I find it nice of you that you pointed this out. :)

[Adel]

However, I can see a relationship concerning Harry and Ginny closer to what I think Harry needs rather than a relationship with Hermione, as I think Ginny could provide some helpful conversation.

I don't know... Ginny appears to me just like a typical 14-years-old girl while Harry is an "old soul", JKR said so herself. It's a bit difficult for me to imagine that Harry and Ginny could have a deep and meaningful relationship... But that's just my opinion.

[McBeth]

I don't know... Ginny appears to me just like a typical 14-years-old girl while Harry is an "old soul", JKR said so herself. It's a bit difficult for me to imagine that Harry and Ginny could have a deep and meaningful relationship... But that's just my opinion.

I know what you mean. She's dating a lot of different guys, and she does seem like a typical teenage girl. However, she's definitely very different from the next guy, but I think she wants to act normal all the same. Harry's such an outcast and so different from everyone else that he can't be normal, I have a hard time seeing him with her.

That's why I cringe (sadly, because I wish I wouldn't) at times when I think of Chocolate, because it seems to be a sort of "on the surface" relationship. Light, fun, and bubbly. To the contrary, I want a relationship concerning Harry that is deep and thought-provoking.

Chocolate would really need to prove that it can be very deep to me before I could be fond of it.

[mrs_bombadil]

I was refering to your post where you stated this interview with Couric was advertised previous 20th June, with a few scene's from that interview. I'm not attacking you contrary I find it nice of you that you pointed this out. :)

Yeah, I thought that might be it but wasn't exactly sure. You're welcome.

[McBeth]

I have a question for Chocolateers. I'm always hearing about how Ginny's pretty much the only one that can understand what Harry goes through with Voldemort.

My question is, because they did go through very different instances with Voldemort, can Harry understand Ginny's difficulty with Voldemort?

[Corbin Dallas]

I have a question for Chocolateers. I'm always hearing about how Ginny's pretty much the only one that can understand what Harry goes through with Voldemort.

My question is, because they did go through very different instances with Voldemort, can Harry understand Ginny's difficulty with Voldemort?
well if anyone can, yes Harry would be able too, the only other Person to be possessed by Voldemort is dead, hope that's not forshadowing *gulp*
CD

[Jadecmn]

McBeth,

I think that is an interesting thing you've brought up. Ginny was used by Voldemort, he controlled her actions directly, which is vastly different from Harry's experiences with Voldermort, which have always had Voldermort as an external threat, but in OotP Voldermort pretty much used Harry (by leading him to the Department of Mysteries) so he might be able to understand.

[ydnotkm]

Who will fall in love with whom? Why are you all interested in this Question?
I'm not really interested in this Question,but I think Ron and Hermione will be a great couple. Ron, a mddle good student with many brothers and a sister and Hermione, a super intelligent girl (sometimes a know-it-all) without brothers or sisters.

[McBeth]

well if anyone can, yes Harry would be able too, the only other Person to be possessed by Voldemort is dead, hope that's not
forshadowing *gulp*
CD

Remember, Harry had never actually been posessed by Voldemort - Voldemort sent him dreams instead.

Personally, I think Harry and Ginny are on a pretty different level - they have had dealings with Voldemort, but so has practically every member of the Order by now. Harry's had a mad killer after him since he was a baby, he's had to watch Voldemort be returned to his body, and he's battled Voldemort in the DoM, feeling extreme pain.

There are certain kinds of people, however rare, that can come close to comprehending something without actually living it. I'm fairly sure Hermione isn't one of those people, and Ginny hasn't shown me that she can yet. However, I don't know about Luna yet, and I wonder, since she seemed very aware of what Harry needed to feel a bit better when they met in the Hallway at the end of OotP.

McBeth,

I think that is an interesting thing you've brought up. Ginny was used by Voldemort, he controlled her actions directly, which is vastly different from Harry's experiences with Voldermort, which have always had Voldermort as an external threat, but in OotP Voldermort pretty much used Harry (by leading him to the Department of Mysteries) so he might be able to understand.

Thank-you - it's something I've been wondering for a while. The thing is, I believe only Harry and Ginny come together to have a slight understanding of one thing that has to do with Voldemort - posession. And with even that, it's hazy. Also, there's a lot more to Harry's past that has to do with Voldemort than just posession.

[Corbin Dallas]

McBeth,
you're forgetting the incident during Voldemort's duel with Dumbledore, Dumbldore later called it a possession and on more than one occasion, Harry noted the "snake" within him wanting to strike at Dumbledore, again Dumbledore later confirmed that it was Voldemort in Harry's mind. The conversation in Dumbledore's office after the DoM incident is where Dumbldore confirms this stuff...
CD

[McBeth]

McBeth,
you're forgetting the incident during Voldemort's duel with Dumbledore, Dumbldore later called it a possession and on more than one occasion, Harry noted the "snake" within him wanting to strike at Dumbledore, again Dumbledore later confirmed that it was Voldemort in Harry's mind. The conversation in Dumbledore's office after the DoM incident is where Dumbldore confirms this stuff...
CD

Thank you for reminding me - that slipped my mind.

All the same however - that posession was for less than five minutes. Ginny's was year long, shrouded in insecurity and fear of not knowing what she was doing and worrying that it could be the worst. It's two very different situations.

Though Ginny may be able to give Harry understanding of posession, she needs understanding to, and I'm doubtful that Harry can offer her that.

[LunaB13]

Interesting points, McBeth. I agree that Ginny has some things in common with Harry, but a relationship with her would never really work out. Luna is the type of girl that can really understand Harry. They would definitely have some very deep talks and a strong relationship. Ginny and Harry together wouldn't be as strong, though I won't be too disappointed if it happened. But just because Ginny has had a run-in with Voldemort doesn't mean that she's the perfect girl for Harry. the same with the chocolate scene. She may have made Harry feel a bit better then, but it was Luna who made Harry feel better about something really major, the death of Sirius.

[McBeth]

Interesting points, McBeth. I agree that Ginny has some things in common with Harry, but a realtionship with her would never really work out. Luna is the type of girl that can really understand harry. They would definitely have som,e very deep talks and a strong reltionship. Ginny and Harry together wouldn't be as strong, though I won't be too disappointed if ti happened. Just because Ginny has had a run-in with Voldemort doesn't mean that she's the perfect girl for Harry. the same with the chocolate scene. She may have made Harry feel a bit better then, but it was Luna who made Harry feel better about something really major, the death of Sirius.

Yes, I do believe Luna's lessening the burden at the end of OotP overshadows all of the other times people have made him feel better, because the burden was created by an extremely terrible loss. It didn't help the burden, either, when Harry felt as though Sirius's death was his own fault. I was amazed that Luna could lift the burden, even though it was only slightly - but then again, Luna is a very unique and special person. ;)

[mrs_bombadil]

Thank you for reminding me - that slipped my mind.

All the same however - that posession was for less than five minutes. Ginny's was year long, shrouded in insecurity and fear of not knowing what she was doing and worrying that it could be the worst. It's two very different situations.

Though Ginny may be able to give Harry understanding of posession, she needs understanding to, and I'm doubtful that Harry can offer her that.

Are you curious just from a general perspective or in relation to romance?

[McBeth]

Are you curious just from a general perspective or in relation to romance?

Actually, just a general perspective. Although I do think it's important in a relationship, as the people are undoubtably closer than regular friends, so I'm curious with that as well, but I'm mainly concentrating on a general perspective now. :)

[LunaB13]

Yes, Luna is a very unique person, which is why I am a fan of her. And she is quite possibly my favorite female character in the several hundred books I've read. There is something about her that attracts me, and now that Harry doesn't see Luna as weird, there is definite potential for a realtionship. I was amazed and glad that one person got through to Luna. If Hogwrts were real and I were there, I'd definitely ask the Sorting Hat to place me in Ravenclaw so I could get to know her better and be her friend.

[AmmoniaAlert]

I know what you mean. She's[Ginny] dating a lot of different guys, and she does seem like a typical teenage girl.

I have to ask again: who are all those guys Ginny is dating?

I can come up with exactly one: Michael.

She had a crush on Harry and finally decided to not spend her life pining, when Harry was clearly not interested.
She met Michael at the Yule ball, and dated him for a year.

She *said* she picked Dean as her next boyfriend, but does Dean know about this? Is she dating him? Or was she just trying to tease her brother?

[mrs_bombadil]

Actually, just a general perspective. Although I do think it's important in a relationship, as the people are undoubtably closer than regular friends, so I'm curious with that as well, but I'm mainly concentrating on a general perspective now. :)

Well, the specifics of the experiences are not really the most important commonalities. There may or may not be different kinds of pain in both cases; different levels of awareness and confusion as to what was happening; etc.

What's important to me (and, again, it's a possible link but I don't think a romance relies on it) are 2 aspects:

--being that intimately linked to Voldemort; "touched by evil"
--the mental "raping" or violation

There are issues of terror and trauma from the first to deal with. Implications to future plots as well.

In the second regard, you have all of the vulnerability and self-loathing that can go with it.

So, they could help each other in those more abstract areas. I don't think empathy and commiseration require experiences to be strong mirrors of each other.

---------------------------------------------

Now, moving to the shipping aspects on my own ;)

So, if you want to compare the kind of "comprehension" that Ginny and Luna may have in the simplist terms, you'd look at rape vs tragic loss of a loved one. Death is a far more universal trauma than rape, imo. Like I said, I'm being as simplistic as possible here.

Now, I realize there are other areas of comprehension that Luna may offer in a relationship but I see them as not being romantically necessary (and I see other ways that Ginny has had personal experiences that are similar to some of Harry's personal challenges).

As I've always said, I see Ginny having an edge in the sense of a fulfilling relationship also needing to bring joy and passion.

The "anti-Hermione" role of Luna to me also restricts her relationship to Harry, just as I see Hermione fulfilling very important functions for Harry that won't be romantic in nature.

-------------------------------------------------------

So, there are the personality and personal history aspects to consider but I also ship chocolate because of other elements in canon--things in the text that I see as foreshadowing and such.

[Jadecmn]

So, there are the personality and personal history aspects to consider but I also ship chocolate because of other aspects of canon--things in the text that I see as foreshadowing and such.


I also think that Harry/Ginny is more likely, but I just want to know for my own eddification(sp), what things in the text?

[mrs_bombadil]

I also think that Harry/Ginny is more likely, but I just want to know for my own eddification(sp), what things in the text?

Okay, I've posted on it quite a bit in the past, and am working on essay, but here is a link to a post that quickly outlined all the reasons I think it's likely:

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1530611&postcount=1635

[Fury]

Why Harry knows that Ron and Hermione like each other:

Talking about Hogsmeade:
“What about Ron though?” he said. “Don’t you want to go with him?”
“Oh…well...” Hermione went slightly pink. “I thought we might meet up with him in the Three Broomsticks…”

The Yule Brawl:

Harry didn’t say anything. He liked being back on speaking terms with Ron too much to speak his mind right now- but he somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had.

Jadecmn I love your signature... those two quotes would have really helped me when I said Harry knows that it is so obvious Ron and Hermione like each other.

[mrs_bombadil]

Jadecmn,

Here are some other posts I've made about Ginny...mostly just having fun ;)

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1508397&postcount=2233 (this one is not just for fun :love: )

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1482594&postcount=396 (this one is silly but still relevant, imo :blush: )

http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1478264&postcount=47 (this combines two of my thoughts and I probably should have stayed on one track but I didn't even try to tackle to romantic/sensual aspects of chocolate :evil: )

[LunaB13]

Those quotes in Jadecmn's signature really point to Hermione and Ron being together. It 's quite obvious Hermione and Ron have feelings for each other, even if they do bicker a great deal. I hope they do get together in HBP. ]

(P.S. I just updated my fic, so if anyone wants to read it, they can.)

[McBeth]

So, if you want to compare the kind of "comprehension" that Ginny and Luna may have in the simplist terms, you'd look at rape vs tragic loss of a loved one. Death is a far more universal trauma than rape, imo. Like I said, I'm being as simplistic as possible here.

You forgot two things that Luna has comprehension of which gives her the upper-hand to Ginny as far as comprehension goes.

1, Being different from everyone because of flat-out who you are; being an outcast.
2, Having rumours and lies spread about you; being looked apon as a liar.

I find those almost just as important as losing a loved one, or having run-ins with Voldemort - expecially having people think you a liar.

Now, I realize there are other areas of comprehension that Luna may offer in a relationship but I see them as not being romantically necessary (and I see other ways that Ginny has had personal experiences that are similar to some of Harry's personal challenges).

I believe that when a ship (whether it's friendship or a relationship) hits a storm, and one partner can't understand what the other is going through, it will never sail as smoothly again.

This was shown in OotP, when Harry got so furious at Hermione because she couldn't understand, couldn't comprehend what he was going through. I know Hermione was not helping things by getting emotional, but all the same, Harry's relationship with Hermione is different now.

I don't see what you mean about Ginny's personal experiences having similarity to some of Harry's personal challenges - can you go into a bit more detail, please?

As I've always said, I see Ginny having an edge in the sense of a fulfilling relationship also needing to bring joy and passion.

The "anti-Hermione" role of Luna to me also restricts her relationship to Harry, just as I see Hermione fulfilling very important functions for Harry that won't be romantic in nature.

But if Luna is the "anti-Hermione," and you don't see Hermione as being in a romantic relationship with Harry, wouldn't that make Luna right for Harry in a romantic relationship? :huh:

[LunaB13]

I have a question. Why do some people ship Red Moon? I can see evidence for Luna having a crush on Ron, but not vice versa. All evidence points for Ron and Hermione, in my opinion. And I would like to ask the same question for Chocolate shippers. Why do you ship it? And I want more evidence besides the chocolate scene. It isn't enough for me to suddenly to ship Chocolate. Even my brother, who only has a mild interest in Harry Potter, says that he thinks Harry and Luna will get together. When I asked him why, he took out OotP and read the part "She walked away, and as she watched her go, Harry found that the terrible weight in his stomach had lessened slightly."

[Moonstruck]

I have a question. Why do some people ship Red Moon? I can see evidence for Luna having a crush on Ron, but not vice versa. All evidence points for Ron and Hermione, in my opinion.

I ship Red Moon because of the Luna->Ron evidence. And I ship Harmony because I see Hermione->Harry evidence.

If I hadn't seen the evidence, I would have never have thought of Red Moon.

[McBeth]

LunaB13, for Chocolate evidence, check out this essay, which was written by IceKat55:

What's Life Without A Little Romance? (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-kkearney01.shtml)

It's a darn good essay, IMO, and I have taken Chocolate very seriously since. Their arguements aren't bad at all, I just don't agree with most of them. :D

[Darynthe]

I want to make a point here about the widely stated idea that Ginny or Luna can make good partners to Harry because they have shared similar traumas.
For one side Ginny has been possessed by Voldemort and Harry has been "invaded" by him (although has not been possessed in the sense that he is not owner of his will).

In the other hand Luna has been in contact with death and dealt with it due to her mother's demise. She has a knowledge Harry needs to cope with Sirius death. She provides something like a religious notion about life after death Harry has never thought about.

Both of them have made him feel slightly better, a bit more hopeful, etc about these worries.

Now, why would THAT mean he will be attracted to them romantically and make the relationship work?

Undertstanding and sharing of traumatic experiences is important in recovery, as in a network of support. It is widely used by alcoholics anonymous, grups of people with eating disorders, beaten up wives, rape victims, weightwatches etc. These are gruops of people with same problems that support each other

There are fellowships of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from them.

Does this necesarily be done by your girlfriend or wife? Not at all. On the contrary, these people outside your own circle can understand what you're going through and give support to go back to your life. They tell you you're not alone and we will suport each other and move on.

This is just a way of seeing why support does not equal romance at all. :eyebrows:

[McBeth]

I ship Red Moon because of the Luna->Ron evidence. And I ship Harmony because I see Hermione->Harry evidence.

If I hadn't seen the evidence, I would have never have thought of Red Moon.

I have a question: I believe you have admitted that you see Ron->Hermione evidence - then why don't you ship them, since you ship Red Moon and Harmony, though you see it as one sided?

I'm not exactly understanding your logic here - please enlighten me. :)

[LunaB13]

LunaB13, for Chocolate evidence, check out this essay, which was written by IceKat55:

What's Life Without A Little Romance? (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-kkearney01.shtml)

It's a darn good essay, IMO, and I have taken Chocolate very seriously since. Their arguements aren't bad at all, I just don't agree with most of them. :D

Thanks. I read it it and it was good. I do agree that Chocolate has potential, but I think Moonlight hs even more.

[McBeth]

I want to make a point here about the widely stated idea that Ginny or Luna can make good partners to Harry because they have shared similar traumas.
For one side Ginny has been possessed by Voldemort and Harry has been "invaded" by him (although has not been possessed in the sense that he is not owner of his will).

In the other hand Luna has been in contact with death and dealt with it due to her mother's demise. She has a knowledge Harry needs to cope with Sirius death. She provides something like a religious notion about life after death Harry has never thought about.

Both of them have made him feel slightly better, a bit more hopeful, etc about these worries.

Now, why would THAT mean he will be attracted to them romantically and make the relationship work?

Undertstanding and sharing of traumatic experiences is important in recovery, as in a network of support. It is widely used by alcoholics anonymous, grups of people with eating disorders, beaten up wives, rape victims, weightwatches etc. These are gruops of people with same problems that support each other

There are fellowships of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from them.

Does this necesarily be done by your girlfriend or wife? Not at all. On the contrary, these people outside your own circle can understand what you're going through and give support to go back to your life. They tell you you're not alone and we will suport each other and move on.

This is just a way of seeing why support does not equal romance at all. :eyebrows:


Then let me ask you this: How will Hermione react everytime Harry needs understanding and he runs off to Ginny and Luna, because they are the only ones who can comprehend?

It is obvious Hermione thinks herself able to understand what he's going through, but she can't. Unfortunately, she acts too quickly, without really opening her eyes to consider how the other side is feeling and their needs (take SPEW, for instance).

I can tell you from experience, having people not understand what you're going through drives you CRAZY! It isn't something you can flick off like a fly as soon as you get your feelings out. Having comprehension of unique and terrible experiences affects who you are and how you deal with things forever.

Right now, Harry needs people who understand him more than anything - and I cannot see him getting together with a girl who cannot comprehend his problems as being probable at all.

[Polychrome]

I have a question for Chocolateers. I'm always hearing about how Ginny's pretty much the only one that can understand what Harry goes through with Voldemort.

My question is, because they did go through very different instances with Voldemort, can Harry understand Ginny's difficulty with Voldemort?

Well, there's that similar feel of a "taint". Both Harry and Ginny have been forced into hurting people they've loved. Harry was tricked into going to the Department of Mysteries, where a good deal of his friends were put into mortal danger and Sirius was killed. Harry was also used during the Triwizard Tournament. Ginny, during her posessions, petrified and threatened other students, killed the roosters, and lured Harry into the Chamber of Secrets where he came very close to dying.

They were both horribly used by Voldemort, and a similar taint is there. They share a similar guilt, and could easily draw from each other. This is why Harry was so easily put on the spot at Grimmauld place. Ginny forced him to remember that he's not alone in his Voldemort problem. (And if you ask me, she seemed slightly angry at the idea of him forgetting.) Also, Harry might be curious as to why Voldemort's attempt to posess him hurt so much, while Ginny's was supposedly painless...

[McBeth]

Well, there's that similar feel of a "taint". Both Harry and Ginny have been forced into hurting people they've loved. Harry was tricked into going to the Department of Mysteries, where a good deal of his friends were put into mortal danger and Sirius was killed. Harry was also used during the Triwizard Tournament. Ginny, during her posessions, petrified and threatened other students, killed the roosters, and lured Harry into the Chamber of Secrets where he came very close to dying.

They were both horribly used by Voldemort, and a similar taint is there. They share a similar guilt, and could easily draw from each other. This is why Harry was so easily put on the spot at Grimmauld place. Ginny forced him to remember that he's not alone in his Voldemort problem. (And if you ask me, she seemed slightly angry at the idea of him forgetting.) Also, Harry might be curious as to why Voldemort's attempt to posess him hurt so much, while Ginny's was supposedly painless...

But then again, many other people have been used for Voldemort's purposes before. Krum, he was used to stun Fleur (or whatever he did to her) under the Imperious Curse in the Tri-Wizard Tournament. One of the Unspeakables (I believe it was Broderick Bode, although I'm not sure) was also used under the Imperious Curse to try and break into the DoM, which could have hurt many people very, very badly had he succeeded and retrieved the Prophecy for Voldemort.

All the same, this only applies to one thing: the Posession. There are many other things that both of them had to go through, and differences in the Posession experiences.

Just as a loose though, I don't see how them both sharing a similar guilt is a plus for Chocolate, when people often sight Harry and Luna's sharing the loss of a loved one being a minus to the relationship.

What I am concentrating on now is who may have the ability to comprehend things they cannot understand - I'm am fairly sure Hermione can't, Ginny has yet to show me she can, yet I am wondering about Luna - she obviously was well aware of exactly what Harry needed to make him feel better at the end of OotP.

[Moonstruck]

I have a question: I believe you have admitted that you see Ron->Hermione evidence - then why don't you ship them, since you ship Red Moon and Harmony, though you see it as one sided?

I'm not exactly understanding your logic here - please enlighten me. :)

I like Red Moon and Harmony better. I feel they would work out better than Heron would.

Harmony and Red Moon are so huggable!! :D (huggable is my new word of the centray :p ).

[Darynthe]

It is interesting that people think Luna is the anti-Hermione.

But is there really such a thing as the anti-Hermione? She is too complex a character to have negative copy of herself going around I am afraid.

In which aspects is Luna different from Hermione? She is out for lunch, she doesn't care about other's people's opinions or simply avoids hearing them, she believes all kind of unbelievable things without real proof. In all this she is different

Luna is not a sports woman, nor popular, nor thought of as pretty, which Hermione isn't as well I am afraid.

Cho, on the other side is more the anti-Hermione. Beautiful, popular, a Quiditch seeker, self-confident.... In fact, Cho is a *lot* like Ginny.

[McBeth]

I like Red Moon and Harmony better. I feel they would work out better than Heron would.

Harmony and Red Moon are so huggable!! :D (huggable is my new word of the centray :p ).

Red Moon's, erm, sweet, I suppose, but I've never been able to embrace it for some reason, unlike others. :D

I have a question, then: Do you think Ron can understand Luna?

It is interesting that people think Luna is the anti-Hermione.

But is there really such a thing as the anti-Hermione? She is too complex a character to have negative copy of herself going around I am afraid.

In which aspects is Luna different from Hermione? She is out for lunch, she doesn't care about other's people's opinions or simply avoids hearing them, she believes all kind of unbelievable things without real proof. In all this she is different

Luna is not a sports woman, nor popular, nor thought of as pretty, which Hermione isn't as well I am afraid.

Cho, on the other side is more the anti-Hermione. Beautiful, popular, a Quiditch seeker, self-confident.... In fact, Cho is a *lot* like Ginny.

Um, actually, we aren't the ones who started the anti-Hermione business. Although I'm sure some people felt Luna was something of Hermione's opposite, JK Rowling was the first to call Luna the "Anti-Hermione."

[mrs_bombadil]

This is just a way of seeing why support does not equal romance at all. :eyebrows:

Darynthe, I hope you didn't include me in your "wildly" comment because what you are describing is NOT what I argue.

My reasons for bringing up the Voldemort connection is:

--it is a shared negative experience that could cause them to seek each other out...a device that could brings them in closer contact...romance would come from other things
--the literary link is just interesting; I don't think JKR is done with Ginny's experience in the Chamber...it may just be for other plot considerations but it's still a link

It is interesting that people think Luna is the anti-Hermione.

JKR's words.

Cho, on the other side is more the anti-Hermione. Beautiful, popular, a Quiditch seeker, self-confident.... In fact, Cho is a *lot* like Ginny.

:evil:

[Moonstruck]

Red Moon's, erm, sweet, I suppose, but I've never been able to embrace it for some reason, unlike others. :D

I have a question, then: Do you think Ron can understand Luna?

I think he can. With Luna now among the circle of friends we onced called the trio, we can see.

The one of the things I like about Red Moon is this: we finally have a character that sees Ron apart from Harry. The first Quidditch game is a good example. Luna goes up, ignores Harry and talks straight to Ron. Not many people do this except when Ron has had something happen to him (Sirius attack, Second task). From what I can tell, Luna sees Ron as Ron and not in any connection to Harry. :)

[McBeth]

I think he can. With Luna now among the circle of friends we onced called the trio, we can see.

Can you go into detail on how he understands Luna, or would even want to understand her, please?

The one thing I like about Red Moon is this: we finally have a character that sees Ron apart from Harry. The first Quidditch game is a good example. Luna goes up, ignores Harry and talks straight to Ron. Not many people do this except when Ron has had something happen to him (Sirius attack, Second task). From what I can tell, Luna sees Ron as Ron and not in any connection to Harry. :)

The trouble is, Ron has no appreciation for Luna's attention. He finds her just as loony and annoying as the next guy, and I haven't seen any change in that perspective, although he may view her differently since the trip to the DoM.

[Darynthe]

Then let me ask you this: How will Hermione react everytime Harry needs understanding and he runs off to Ginny and Luna, because they are the only ones who can comprehend?

It is obvious Hermione thinks herself able to understand what he's going through, but she can't. Unfortunately, she acts too quickly, without really opening her eyes to consider how the other side is feeling and their needs (take SPEW, for instance).

I can tell you from experience, having people not understand what you're going through drives you CRAZY! It isn't something you can flick off like a fly as soon as you get your feelings out. Having comprehension of unique and terrible experiences affects who you are and how you deal with things forever.

Right now, Harry needs people who understand him more than anything - and I cannot see him getting together with a girl who cannot comprehend his problems as being probable at all.


If your premise was truth then all people in support groups would divorce their wife and marry people with similar experiences. The sharing with these people is THERAPEUTIC in nature. Not romantic. And it will never be.

When you fall with somebody who understands your problems and is helping you to get out of them by counseling you as a figure who knows better, it's usually called PROJECTION. It's not real. A common problem between a psycologist and patients.

Now, where did you get from that Harry runs to Ginny and Luna to be comprehended? I seem to remember very clearly that it's Ginny who goes looking for him, never Harry looking for Ginny, and it's Luna who starts the conversations on death, thestrals, etc. hardly ever Harry.

It's to Hermione to whom he goes when things are very bad. He runs to her and Ron when he sees Sirius tortured in his dream. Not to Luna or Ginny. And when Ron understands and trust his (wrong) conviction, and Hermione does not, then he doesn't go off alone with Ron and leave Hermione to sulk.

Nope, he fights her to put her on his side, he is aggressive so she does and think way he wants and goes with him. She stand up to him even with the menace of his getting violent, finally Hermione comes with a plan as a happy middle term and they compromise. (And she's right by resisting him, BTW). So I see a pretty healthy relationship here, one with solidarity and judgement, not blind support. A key to succeed, be it friendship or love.

[LunaB13]

I agree that Luna is showing signs of a crush on Ron. But there's been no sins on Ron's part. He clearly thinks Luna is weird and dotty. He has even said so himself. Of course, after the DoM, Ron will be more appreciative of her, but I don't think he'll go up to her and ask, "Luna, will you go to Hogsmeade with me?" It's more likely that he'll ask that to Hermione. the books have shown plently of evidence of Ron having a crush on Hermione.

[Moonstruck]

Can you go into detail on how he understands Luna, or would even want to understand her, please?



The trouble is, Ron has no appreciation for Luna's attention. He finds her just as loony and annoying as the next guy, and I haven't seen any change in that perspective, although he may view her differently since the trip to the DoM.

I said I think he will. He doesn't understand her now (neither did Harry until the very end of the book). We have to wait til book six for him to see understanding.

If they are going to be friends, then he'll have to learn to understand her.

Can I ask you this? Why do you think he won't change? There are still two books to go and those two happen to be priviotal years in growing up. Why do you think he won't change his view on Luna?

[mrs_bombadil]

You forgot two things that Luna has comprehension of which gives her the upper-hand to Ginny as far as comprehension goes.

1, Being different from everyone because of flat-out who you are; being an outcast.
2, Having rumours and lies spread about you; being looked apon as a liar.

I find those almost just as important as losing a loved one, or having run-ins with Voldemort - expecially having people think you a liar.

I didn't forget...I said I wasn't focusing on others at that point. You point out that Ginny and Harry's Voldemort experiences have many different aspects...so do Harry and Luna's alienations; the not being believed thing is also different in each case. As I said, I think there are other things Ginny has experienced that Harry can relate to as well.

I believe that when a ship (whether it's friendship or a relationship) hits a storm, and one partner can't understand what the other is going through, it will never sail as smoothly again.

I don't believe you have to have all of the same experiences to be helpful to each other. As I've said, you are talking about real life even more than literary characters and my experiences of real life contradict what you are proscribing. You may have one set of experiences that lead you to believe certain things must be true...and maybe they are for you but that doesn't make them universal.

This was shown in OotP, when Harry got so furious at Hermione because she couldn't understand, couldn't comprehend what he was going through. I know Hermione was not helping things by getting emotional, but all the same, Harry's relationship with Hermione is different now.

Which thing was it she didn't understand again? Was that the invasion of his mind???

I don't see what you mean about Ginny's personal experiences having similarity to some of Harry's personal challenges - can you go into a bit more detail, please?

Remind me another time and I promise I will...I just have limited time at at the moment.

But if Luna is the "anti-Hermione," and you don't see Hermione as being in a romantic relationship with Harry, wouldn't that make Luna right for Harry in a romantic relationship? :huh:

I made this in regards to these individuals have fairly extreme ways of looking at things. Harry himself is not an extreme and I think he'll be matched with someone who's outlook on things is also more balanced. That would also presume that the things about Hermione that make her and Harry unsuited for each other are the ways in which Luna is different, and I'm necessarily arguing those charactertistics.

[connielane]

You know as good as I know it doesn't matter when this interview was made, what matters is that the security wasn't high enough even weeks before Bloomsbury official announced the countdown was a OotP copy found on a field after that (what happened at the beginning of May) it went worst. At some point even a lot of copies were stolen and people kept spoiling things. To all this comes the very fact that my argument got very little to do with JKR's mood on that day. Its all about the way how JKR is answering this question and how its to be understood.She is answering the question as she has answered many, many other questions in the past. There is no reason - other than utter paranoia - to presume that she means something different than what any human being would understand her to mean. Regardless of what was happening in the media. Rowling is not that easily distracted.Like I already showed in detail, even in playing JKR like you put it, is JKR not saying H/Hr won't happen nor is she saying R/Hr will happen. Such an interview don't even exist,Of course it doesn't. She very rarely gives straight yes or no answers to anything. That doesn't mean that her hints are not often quite broad and easy to understand.its quite funny that you based at this says that you are amazed that I still ship H/Hr. Its even wonder some that you say JKR is saying R/Hr happens or in my case H/Hr isn't, thats pretty much illogical.It is not illogical. It is basic knowledge of English idioms and plain common sense.also if you say this clip/interview with Couric was done earlier maybe a reasoning why exactly you think so.I already gave you the reasons. There has to be time for editing, voice-overs, artwork, video effects, etc., most of which must be done after the actual interview, which naturally makes up the bulk of the footage. Perhaps if you could see the whole segment you would understand what I mean, but unfortunately the only video available seems to be the brief clip of that quote that I and my shipmates loved so much.Well, you get off the road since I didn't start to argue whether her mood did anything to her answer on that interview or not.You were saying that the events surrounding the release (the early reviews, spoilers, etc.) affected the way she was answering questions. I am simply saying this is not possible, given the time period in which the interview most likely took place.However I argued whether her answer can even count as negate of H/Hr, says if I expect H/Hr in book7 and she appears as if H/Hr in OotP is pretty nonsense does that negate my ship? Like said before it don't.Of course it doesn't! The quote made its way onto the net before OotP even came out, and I spent the subsequent year and a half debating you personally as well as a great number of your shipmates. I know the quote doesn't negate H/Hr for you. But that doesn't stop me being amazed. Frankly, I'm amazed that anyone who has read GoF and OotP can still believe it's actually going to happen. But here we are, still debating. *boggles*Most members of HMS Harmony never argued that H/Hr would happen in book5 at all.I think it's been stated several times that my shipmates and I pretty universally understood that quote as applying to future books. NOT book 5.But you brought up an interesting point: What if JKR had reacted about R/Hr like that? This is entier a different case because most Good-Shipper did expect this in OotP. Of course you'd jump ship after such a statement.First of all, you're quite wrong in thinking that most of us expected R/Hr to happen in book 5. We've told you many, many, many, many times. But you persist in forgetting.

Secondly, yes you're right. I certainly would have changed my mind if she had reacted to R/Hr like that. But whether we thought R/Hr would happen in OotP or not is completely irrelevant. We understand the quote as applying to the future of the series as a whole. Not just the next book. I think the history of the debate has shown us that it is your ship that has the tendency to assume that quotes only refer to one book. If you want to think we're silly for not subscribing to the same Quote Religion as you do, go ahead. I, personally, care not.Well, in this case you misread lines. Out of curiosity if you are that amazed that after such interviews by JKR still H/Hr shipper exist doesn't this mean ,I read between the lines here, that you should think of my kind that we are pretty *uhm how should I call it* in denial or just not able to read an interview? Of course I might misread this but I got always this strange feeling if I read some of your posts we must appear like hopeless fools to you. You know reminds bit at Umbridge how she speaks to Hagrid. Just my impression though I might have got the wrong one.Hm. It appears you were annoyed.

In answer to your question, though, I don't know if I'd use language as strong as "hopeless fools." That's rather a mean way to put it. In the nicest terms I can conjure, I do think that you and your shipmates are attempting to force canon to match your preferences. If you prefer H/Hr and wish that JKR would write it, that's one thing, and I have absolutely nothing against that. What you prefer is what you prefer. But to insist that this is what JKR has planned all along is highly contradictory to my own understanding of how stories have worked for centuries, and I can't help feeling that you're setting yourself up for disappointment. I'm sorry if that sounds rude or presumptuous, but that is my honest and personal opinion. I'm sure you think something similar about my shipping position yourself. And the reason we come here to debate is not to kiss up to each other or win points or come up with ingenious theories, but to come to an intellectual understanding about what J.K. Rowling is trying to accomplish with the Harry Potter books. At least that's why I'm here.

[Charmed Cheese]

I don't know... Ginny appears to me just like a typical 14-years-old girl while Harry is an "old soul", JKR said so herself. It's a bit difficult for me to imagine that Harry and Ginny could have a deep and meaningful relationship... But that's just my opinion.

I think you've been reading too many Harmony essays....

The statement of Ginny being a "typical teenage girl" is really offensive to teenage girls. Honestly, if you said "Dean's a typical black boy" I'm sure you would turn more heads.

What is the typical 14 year old girl? Are you prepared to give a stereotype?
While I strongly with a disagree with such generalizations I think your getting at the "Lavender" or "Parvati" type: the flakey, boy-crazy, appearance centred girl. First, I don't see that as the "typical" 14 year old girl: there's no such thing. Second, I don't recall any instance where Ginny resembles these two girls.

How come Hermione doesn't fit into this category? Hermione is every bit as "average" as Ginny. In fact in some ways Ginny has a maturity and wisdom that Hermione doesn't. I'd say both girls are equal in dealing with Harry's "old soul".

[Darynthe]

Darynthe, I hope you didn't include me in your "wildly" comment because what you are describing is NOT what I argue.

My reasons for bringing up the Voldemort connection is:

--it is a shared negative experience that could cause them to seek each other out...a device that could brings them in closer contact...romance would come from other things
--the literary link is just interesting; I don't think JKR is done with Ginny's experience in the Chamber...it may just be for other plot considerations but it's still a link

JKR's words.

:evil:


Oh, no it wasn't to you. When I reply to somebody I usually quote. It's just a general comment I made given that everybody was talking about Ginny and LUna and their experiences.

I am very glad to see you realizing that romance could come from other things and not from the fact that Ginny and Luna have also been through similar traumatic experiences.


I didn't know JKR had called her herself the anti-Hermione. If JRK says it then she is of course. But still cannot help but to think that Cho is more like it. :p

[mrs_bombadil]

But then again, many other people have been used for Voldemort's purposes before. Krum, he was used to stun Fleur (or whatever he did to her) under the Imperious Curse in the Tri-Wizard Tournament. One of the Unspeakables (I believe it was Broderick Bode, although I'm not sure) was also used under the Imperious Curse to try and break into the DoM, which could have hurt many people very, very badly had he succeeded and retrieved the Prophecy for Voldemort.

As I've mentioned before, the experience itself of Imperious is very different than possession. Also, both Harry and Ginny had ongoing struggles against the invasions they experienced.

All the same, this only applies to one thing: the Posession. There are many other things that both of them had to go through, and differences in the Posession experiences.

But some of the effects and resulting feelings are probably the same, as my previous post pointed out. However, I don't find this discussion very useful for shipping as I think it's only tangentially related (from my own perspective, I know you disagree).

Just as a loose though, I don't see how them both sharing a similar guilt is a plus for Chocolate, when people often sight Harry and Luna's sharing the loss of a loved one being a minus to the relationship.

I don't see the loss of loved one as a minus. I see them both as basically neutral expect they can both be reasons for Harry to seek out the other girls...to me any romance would occur for other reasons.

What I am concentrating on now is who may have the ability to comprehend things they cannot understand - I'm am fairly sure Hermione can't, Ginny has yet to show me she can, yet I am wondering about Luna - she obviously was well aware of exactly what Harry needed to make him feel better at the end of OotP.

Like I've said, the more Harry gets from as many people as possible, the better. And I agree in principle with the "getting through to Harry" on an emotionally comforting level argument. It is one of the things I see as plus for Ginny and a possible check in the "pro" column for Luna too.

[McBeth]

If your premise was truth then all people in support groups would divorce their wife and marry people with similar experiences. The sharing with these people is THERAPEUTIC in nature. Not romantic. And it will never be.

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Often people are drawn together because of past miseries that they share.

When you fall with somebody who understands your problems and is helping you to get out of them by counseling you as a figure who knows better, it's usually called PROJECTION. It's not real. A common problem between a psycologist and patients.

You don't think Luna's right when she's implying to Harry that things will get better for him, that he will get over Sirius's death? :huh: I don't understand what you mean.

Now, where did you get from that Harry runs to Ginny and Luna to be comprehended? I seem to remember very clearly that it's Ginny who goes looking for him, never Harry looking for Ginny, and it's Luna who starts the conversations on death, thestrals, etc. hardly ever Harry.

It's to Hermione to whom he goes when things are very bad. He runs to her and Ron when he sees Sirius tortured in his dream. Not to Luna or Ginny. And when Ron understands and trust his (wrong) conviction, and Hermione does not, then he doesn't go off alone with Ron and leave Hermione to sulk.

Nope, he fights her to put her on his side, he is aggressive so she does and think way he wants and goes with him. She stand up to him even with the menace of his getting violent, finally Hermione comes with a plan as a happy middle term and they compromise. (And she's right by resisting him, BTW). So I see a pretty healthy relationship here, one with solidarity and judgement, not blind support. A key to succeed, be it friendship or love.

It's not a healthy relationship when Harry can't be calmed down. Hermione got too emotional in that scene, and didn't help Harry. I do not blame her for this in the least, but if someone had remained calm and managed to get Harry calm himself as well, the outcome of the whole event could have been very different.

Edit: mrs_bomdadil and Moonstruck, I'll respond to your questions and rebuttels later - I've got to go now. :)

[mrs_bombadil]

I didn't know JKR had called her herself the anti-Hermione. If JRK says it then she is of course. But still cannot help but to think that Cho is more like it. :p

Do you see why I like you bringing Cho into this?

[Polychrome]

But then again, many other people have been used for Voldemort's purposes before. Krum, he was used to stun Fleur (or whatever he did to her) under the Imperious Curse in the Tri-Wizard Tournament. One of the Unspeakables (I believe it was Broderick Bode, although I'm not sure) was also used under the Imperious Curse to try and break into the DoM, which could have hurt many people very, very badly had he succeeded and retrieved the Prophecy for Voldemort.

Well, first off, many of these people simply aren't around to even talk to, and frankly I'd hate to see a Harry/Krum ship. Eeewwww....

All the same, this only applies to one thing: the Posession. There are many other things that both of them had to go through, and differences in the Posession experiences.

True, but the fact is, they've both gone through it, and have both had equally horrifying experiences.

Just as a loose though, I don't see how them both sharing a similar guilt is a plus for Chocolate, when people often sight Harry and Luna's sharing the loss of a loved one being a minus to the relationship.

It's one of the reasons I'm open minded about Luna. However, as Bombadil said, the mental-rape makes it a bit more extreme. More than simply being used, they have had their own minds turned inside out and used against them. Ginny willingly wrote inside the diary. Harry willingly went to the Department of Mysteries. Luna may have suffered the death of a loved one, but she hasn't suffered the trauma of being the cause of it.

What I am concentrating on now is who may have the ability to comprehend things they cannot understand - I'm am fairly sure Hermione can't, Ginny has yet to show me she can, yet I am wondering about Luna - she obviously was well aware of exactly what Harry needed to make him feel better at the end of OotP.

As far as we know, Ginny has not suffered the death of a loved one as of yet. However, I find the Voldemort issue to be a bit more pressing. I also give Ginny a bit more credit because of the metaphorical descriptions of her, as well as the romantic imagery in Chamber of Secrets. True, they were not in love or anything at the time (they were 12) but the setup is still there. I just find the score to be in Ginny's favor at this time.

[McBeth]

Can I ask you this? Why do you think he won't change? There are still two books to go and those two happen to be priviotal years in growing up. Why do you think he won't change his view on Luna?

Frankly, because it seems quite obvious to me that Ron likes level-headed, more predictable girls better. :)

Secondly, I really don't think Ron has intrest in Crumple-Horned Snorkacks. ;)

[Melcb98]

I have a question to all Luna/Harry shippers. Even though I really like the idea of Harry and Luna, what do you make of JKR's quotes regarding Ginny?

In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. ;-) Scholastic Chat (February 2000)


Poor Ginny, languishing in love for Harry, and he's merrily asking out other girls right under her nose! But that's just a boy thing. Time Pacific Article (December 2000)


[Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley?] You'll see... poor Ginny, eh? Comic Relief chat (March 2001)

[Darynthe]

I'm sorry, but what are you talking about? Often people are drawn together because of past miseries that they share.

Yes, drawn together but it's different from a romantic relationship. I see you don't deny this.


You don't think Luna's right when she's implying to Harry that things will get better for him, that he will get over Sirius's death? :huh: I don't understand what you mean.

Please reread my post. I am talking about his falling in love with Luna for the wrong reasons, *if* he ever does. I am not saying that Harry won't feel better or get over Sirius death. I am confused why you thought I implied this, when obviously he has to get better at some point.




It's not a healthy relationship when Harry can't be calmed down. Hermione got too emotional in that scene, and didn't help Harry. I do not blame her for this in the least, but if someone had remained calm and managed to get Harry calm himself as well, the outcome of the whole event could have been very different.

Harry got as calmed after the discussion as he could under the circumstances. Let us remember that he thought Sirius was being tortured. If he *was* calm after such conviction of Sirius pain then Harry wouldn't be human. Nobody else could have calmed him. Ginny didn't and Luna didn't and they were there at the end of the fight too.

Two, Hermione got too emotional, but do you have proof that some other girl could have been less so under the same scene? We have never seen Harry so aggressive with a friend before, never so out of his mind and desparete before! We have never seen so an emotional Harry with Luna or Ginny because he doens't go to her under any kind of extreme circumstances.

It's interesting but Hermione didn't lose her cool although she was obviously very alarmed and even a little frightened. She didn't agree to Harry's wishes even after all that. He had to go with HER plan so as to bring her along. She didn't surrender to his irrationality.

[McBeth]

I didn't forget...I said I wasn't focusing on others at that point. You point out that Ginny and Harry's Voldemort experiences have many different aspects...so do Harry and Luna's alienations; the not being believed thing is also different in each case. As I said, I think there are other things Ginny has experienced that Harry can relate to as well.

Can you pin-point how not being believed in different in Luna's and Harry's cases? Harry and Luna both willingly state their beliefs - and they are both then regarded as lunatics that should be carted off to St. Mungo's in a straight-jacket.

I don't believe you have to have all of the same experiences to be helpful to each other. As I've said, you are talking about real life even more than literary characters and my experiences of real life contradict what you are proscribing. You may have one set of experiences that lead you to believe certain things must be true...and maybe they are for you but that doesn't make them universal.

I understand that - however, it takes a very unique and special person to be able to come close to understanding the trauma and problems of another's, expecially Harry's. I'm fairly positive Hermione cannot do this, and Ginny is yet to prove to me she can. However, I wonder about Luna, because she certainly seemed to know exactly what Harry needed in the current situation to make him feel better in the Hallway Scene in OotP.

Which thing was it she didn't understand again? Was that the invasion of his mind???

She didn't have empathy for the fact that Harry had just seen his godfather looking as though he was on the doorstep of death, and she didn't have empathy to how much Harry wanted to go to the DoM then and there, for fear that he would be too late if he didn't leave within a minute.

Remind me another time and I promise I will...I just have limited time at at the moment.

I'll make a mental note to.

I made this in regards to these individuals have fairly extreme ways of looking at things. Harry himself is not an extreme and I think he'll be matched with someone who's outlook on things is also more balanced. That would also presume that the things about Hermione that make her and Harry unsuited for each other are the ways in which Luna is different, and I'm necessarily arguing those charactertistics.

Okay . . . I think I understand.

[Lady Vorn]

I remember reading somewhere, ages ago (cant remeber where, maybe someone else can?) when GoF came out, that Jo said that Harry's true love was right under his nose, he just hasnt seen it yet.
Now, this was before I was introduced to the world of shipping, and I thought at the time, sure;y she meant Hermione. Now however, I am almost positive she meant Ginny. What other girls did Harry no that well in Book 4 other than Ginny and Hermione? I dont for a second think she could have meant Hermione, because clearly, she is destined to be with Ron ( or at least fancies him an awful lot) so Im convinced she meant Ginny.
Harry just needs to open his eyes to her, thats all, and I think this has already begun in OoTP.

[McBeth]

As I've mentioned before, the experience itself of Imperious is very different than possession. Also, both Harry and Ginny had ongoing struggles against the invasions they experienced.

I agree that they had struggles - but again, there are many other things Harry has had to go through with Voldemort as well, and there are many other things that Ginny doesn't have an understanding of.

But some of the effects and resulting feelings are probably the same, as my previous post pointed out. However, I don't find this discussion very useful for shipping as I think it's only tangentially related (from my own perspective, I know you disagree).

Yes I do, because I believe you either have to actually go through similar experiences yourself, or be an extremely intuitive and understanding person.

I don't see the loss of loved one as a minus. I see them both as basically neutral expect they can both be reasons for Harry to seek out the other girls...to me any romance would occur for other reasons.

The reason I mentioned that is because I've often heard people say a Harry/Luna relationship would be too depressing - but I think the same applies to Harry/Ginny.

Like I've said, the more Harry gets from as many people as possible, the better. And I agree in principle with the "getting through to Harry" on an emotionally comforting level argument. It is one of the things I see as plus for Ginny and a possible check in the "pro" column for Luna too.

Why do you see it as a check for Ginny, yet only a possibly check in the pro column for Luna?

Well, first off, many of these people simply aren't around to even talk to, and frankly I'd hate to see a Harry/Krum ship. Eeewwww....

That wasn't what I meant. I was simply stating that other poeple may be able to understand aside from Miss Ginny.

True, but the fact is, they've both gone through it, and have both had equally horrifying experiences.

Being friendless for years at a time and losing your parental figure is horrifying as well - and I find Harry's rehab and acceptance of Sirius's death more pressing now than Voldemort's posession.

It's one of the reasons I'm open minded about Luna. However, as Bombadil said, the mental-rape makes it a bit more extreme. More than simply being used, they have had their own minds turned inside out and used against them. Ginny willingly wrote inside the diary. Harry willingly went to the Department of Mysteries. Luna may have suffered the death of a loved one, but she hasn't suffered the trauma of being the cause of it.

The circumstances of Mrs. Lovegood's death remain to be seen.

As far as we know, Ginny has not suffered the death of a loved one as of yet. However, I find the Voldemort issue to be a bit more pressing. I also give Ginny a bit more credit because of the metaphorical descriptions of her, as well as the romantic imagery in Chamber of Secrets. True, they were not in love or anything at the time (they were 12) but the setup is still there. I just find the score to be in Ginny's favor at this time.

I disagree as far to which issue is more pressing - Harry's just been badly emotionally injured because of Sirius's death, and he needs to recooperate from that now and learn to move on.

[GilyAnn]

Well, I do think Luna will be Harry's greatest help in overcoming the loss of Sirius. Ginny didn't know Sirius as well as Harry did, but I do agree she lost someone she cared for, too.
Why do I belive Luna will be the one to help?
Because she has accepted the loss of her mother, and can therefor give hope. Oh, and I'm talking about the stomach-knot lessening at the end of the scene; not the pity.

But that's exactly the problem Luna has not accepted her mother's death. She lives hanging on to the hope that she will see her mother again, hoping to get and have another glimpse or encounter with her. That's not accepting someone's death it's holding on to them. Accepting is letting them go and remembering them how they wanted to be remember. Luna doesn't do that and I failed to see how Harry feeling less pity for Luna is helping the relationship.

Luna never met Sirius. Ginny on the other hand spend an entire summer in his home and knew him well enough to care what could happen to him. If there is anyone that has been shown in the books that can help on rising Harry's moods is Ginny.

I agree that I'm not sure if H/L is a romantic plotline. But some people here are so shocked that people think of H/L, and I like to point out that the ship does indeed have canon :)

I don't mean to be rude but I fail to see the evidence for H/L. I have tried but I don't see it. Luna is a great character but for me she's not being set up for either Harry, Ron or most probably neither for Neville and that's the ship that could have any romantic foreshadowing but it's not very clear. Luna is one of the many reasons of why I wish HBP would come out.

And Harry didn't think her ideas were far-fetched after the DoM, when she told him she heard the voices, too.

I'm sorry but he does believe she has crazy ideas even after:

OotP Page 863:
Harry did not know what to say, or to think. Luna believed so many extraordinary things... yet he had been sure he had heard voices behind the veil.

Even when Harry has his own ears to prove that the voices did indeed existed Harry still thinks that Luna believes to many weird stuff. To be honest Luna believing crazy stuff is what makes her the great character that she is, but Harry has to many inconsistencies and this scene is one of the moments that to me shows why H/L are not being set up toguether.

Oh, and don't excuse yourself for not seeing anything romantic about Luna. Women in these stories can have great, big, helpful plotlines without dating the main charachter (like Hermione, IMO, and Ginny and Luna for other people).

Oh, and GilyAnn, I'd like to add that I really enjoy your Chocolate posts. You're one of the people here who made me consider shipping Chocolate (I won't ship Harry until his feelings become more clear). Great job!!

Thanks for the compliment :blush: you should visit our collections of essays (link on my sig) some people put a lot of effort in them. :eyebrows: Maybe we can get you to join us. :p

I'm actually excusing myself because when book 5 came out and I gave my impression of Luna I got accused of Luna bashing (not in this forum) by some H/L shippers and being biased towards my ship. I can assure anyone that it's not the case. I don't think either that my opinion is offensive towards her character. She just gave me one impression from my first read and I can't seem to shake it off and I have tried. So I only apologize before hand because debates tend to get horrible quickly and suddenly it's believe that you hate their character for the sake of your ship.

Jadecmn:
I also think that Harry/Ginny is more likely, but I just want to know for my own eddification(sp), what things in the text?

I assume that is the romantic foreshadowing and the literarture patterns.

McBeth:
I don't see what you mean about Ginny's personal experiences having similarity to some of Harry's personal challenges - can you go into a bit more detail, please?

Ok I know that the question wasn't for me but I hope you don't mind if I have a try on it. :p Ginny seem to have a reverse role with Harry. In book 2 Ginny was posessed in book 5 Harry was posessed both times by Mr. moldivoldy Harry was a seeker, Ginny replaced him as a seeker in book 5. In CoS Lockhart asks Harry for help with his fan mail to fans like Gladys Gudgeon. In OotP Lockhart asks Ginny for help with his fan mail odly enough the same woman is mention again. In book 2 Ginny thought he was going insane and in book 5 Harry things he's going insane. I'll shut up now in case that wasn't the original person asked.

Gily Ann

[mrs_bombadil]

Can you pin-point how not being believed in different in Luna's and Harry's cases? Harry and Luna both willingly state their beliefs - and they are both then regarded as lunatics that should be carted off to St. Mungo's in a straight-jacket.

First of all, it remains to be seen if Luna is even correct to believe ALL the things she does. Second, for her these are more issues of "belief" or faith rather than Harry's experience of having first-hand knowledge of something an not being believed. Plus, JK tells us those days are pretty much over for Harry whereas they're likely to continue for Luna.

I understand that - however, it takes a very unique and special person to be able to come close to understanding the trauma and problems of another's, expecially Harry's. I'm fairly positive Hermione cannot do this, and Ginny is yet to prove to me she can. However, I wonder about Luna, because she certainly seemed to know exactly what Harry needed in the current situation to make him feel better in the Hallway Scene in OotP.

I do give Luna a lot of credit for what she accomplished in that scene. However, it has active and passive components. The passive being that she had the shared perspective (which is nice but, as I've said, not necessary for romance in my opinion) and the active (knowing he needed comfort and purposely saying the things she did to provide it) being something that others could conceivably help with too, as far as helping him with his grief.

To me what really sets Luna apart is that belief in what's behind the veil and it fits with my view of her as a kind of spiritual guide. I see the role ultimately as more functional in the plot.

Also remember that Ginny is the one who informed Luna that Sirius was Harry's godfather. We don't know that nature of that conversation or any of the other content but if Ginny and Luna were discussing Harry's loss then I think Ginny did have a role in this, even if it was incidental.

[This is just an aside and I can't really elaborate but to me the wonderful absurdities we see with Luna fit nicely with some views I have on Neville...unfortunately they are some kind of wacky theories about that plot that REALLY don't belong in this thread; I'll just say they are definitely absurd]

[McBeth]

Yes, drawn together but it's different from a romantic relationship. I see you don't deny this.

But I do deny it. I find unique comprehension extremely attractive myself - but that is just me, and I don't like to apply my own personal feelings to the Harry Potter characters.

Please reread my post. I am talking about his falling in love with Luna for the wrong reasons, *if* he ever does. I am not saying that Harry won't feel better or get over Sirius death. I am confused why you thought I implied this, when obviously he has to get better at some point.

I asked you that because you seemed to be refering to Luna's affect on Harry as "counseling him" being false, not real.

How could Harry fall in love with Luna for the wrong reasons? It's not like he finds her attractive or something.

Harry got as calmed after the discussion as he could under the circumstances. Let us remember that he thought Sirius was being tortured. If he *was* calm after such conviction of Sirius pain then Harry wouldn't be human. Nobody else could have calmed him. Ginny didn't and Luna didn't and they were there at the end of the fight too.

My mind is drawing a blank - were Ginny and Luna even present at the fight?

But Hermione would have helped things greatly if she had been empathetic in some way. Having someone not understand you're distress when you're that upset is not a good thing.

Two, Hermione got too emotional, but do you have proof that some other girl could have been less so under the same scene? We have never seen Harry so aggressive with a friend before, never so out of his mind and desparete before! We have never seen so an emotional Harry with Luna or Ginny because he doens't go to her under any kind of extreme circumstances.

Luna has been described as calm and serene many times in OotP, like Dumbledore often is. I don't know how she would react in that kind of situation - but I doubt she would burst into tears. I think she's more intuitive to human emotions than Hermione is.

It's interesting but Hermione didn't lose her cool although she was obviously very alarmed and even a little frightened. She didn't agree to Harry's wishes even after all that. He had to go with HER plan so as to bring her along. She didn't surrender to his irrationality.

Yet she wasn't helping Harry calm down - no I don't think Harry could have been calm going into the DoM. But he could have been a lot calmer and less hastier than he was. Hermione telling him the fact that Sirius being held hostage in the DoM was so unlikely did not help things, expecially when Harry truly believed it was real himself, and that he must act now.

[Miss ERB]

I remember reading somewhere, ages ago (cant remeber where, maybe someone else can?) when GoF came out, that Jo said that Harry's true love was right under his nose, he just hasnt seen it yet.
Now, this was before I was introduced to the world of shipping, and I thought at the time, sure;y she meant Hermione. Now however, I am almost positive she meant Ginny. What other girls did Harry no that well in Book 4 other than Ginny and Hermione? I dont for a second think she could have meant Hermione, because clearly, she is destined to be with Ron ( or at least fancies him an awful lot) so Im convinced she meant Ginny.
Harry just needs to open his eyes to her, thats all, and I think this has already begun in OoTP.


Did JK really say that!!!?? Can you tell me the interview it was said in? Ya I doubt she meant Hermione..I mean I really think JK is leaning way towards Hr/R than Hr/H. I think she meant Ginny too because who else could it have been?

[McBeth]

But that's exactly the problem Luna has not accepted her mother's death. She lives hanging on to the hope that she will see her mother again, hoping to get and have another glimpse or encounter with her. That's not accepting someone's death it's holding on to them. Accepting is letting them go and remembering them how they wanted to be remember. Luna doesn't do that and I failed to see how Harry feeling less pity for Luna is helping the relationship.

I'm sorry, but I believe you're dead-wrong about this.

JKR is Christian. Afterlife is one of the Christian beliefs. That's why I don't believe Luna believes she will see her mother again on this earth. I think she believes in Dumbledore's "Death is Life's Next Great Adventure," instead. She's trying to prove to Harry that there is something to wonder about - that someday you'll see your loved ones again, if you are patient and steadfast in your plans.

Ok I know that the question wasn't for me but I hope you don't mind if I have a try on it. :p Ginny seem to have a reverse role with Harry. In book 2 Ginny was posessed in book 5 Harry was posessed both times by Mr. moldivoldy Harry was a seeker, Ginny replaced him as a seeker in book 5. In CoS Lockhart asks Harry for help with his fan mail to fans like Gladys Gudgeon. In OotP Lockhart asks Ginny for help with his fan mail odly enough the same woman is mention again. In book 2 Ginny thought he was going insane and in book 5 Harry things he's going insane. I'll shut up now in case that wasn't the original person asked.

:wow: That is scary - I never realized that before.

[Moonstruck]

Frankly, because it seems quite obvious to me that Ron likes level-headed, more predictable girls better. :)

But how do we know that won't change?

Secondly, I really don't think Ron has intrest in Crumple-Horned Snorkacks. ;)

He doesn't have to have an interest in them. Just an understanding of how Luna works.

[delemtri]

Ok I know that the question wasn't for me but I hope you don't mind if I have a try on it. Ginny seem to have a reverse role with Harry. In book 2 Ginny was posessed in book 5 Harry was posessed both times by Mr. moldivoldy Harry was a seeker, Ginny replaced him as a seeker in book 5. In CoS Lockhart asks Harry for help with his fan mail to fans like Gladys Gudgeon. In OotP Lockhart asks Ginny for help with his fan mail odly enough the same woman is mention again. In book 2 Ginny thought he was going insane and in book 5 Harry things he's going insane. I'll shut up now in case that wasn't the original person asked.

Very nice work.

[Adel]

Originally Posted by Charmed Cheese
I think you've been reading too many Harmony essays....

You're critisizeing me, yet you aren't any better. I can make my own opinions, thank you very much.

The statement of Ginny being a "typical teenage girl" is really offensive to teenage girls. Honestly, if you said "Dean's a typical black boy" I'm sure you would turn more heads.

I do not know any black boys so I would never dare to make such a comment. And I'm really sorry if I offended any 14 year old girl. But you're right, "typical" is such a bad insult. Bad, Adel, bad!

What is the typical 14 year old girl? Are you prepared to give a stereotype?
While I strongly with a disagree with such generalizations I think your getting at the "Lavender" or "Parvati" type: the flakey, boy-crazy, appearance centred girl. First, I don't see that as the "typical" 14 year old girl: there's no such thing. Second, I don't recall any instance where Ginny resembles these two girls.

I remember being 14 and I was not, flakey, boy-crazy or appearance centred. Come to think of it, neither were my friends...
I didn't want to stereotype Ginny. That wasn't even the point.
But you're right, we cannot call her typical because, well, because we have never seen how she acts when there are no boys around. You know, when she is alone with her friends or with Hermione, who of course is her friend.

How come Hermione doesn't fit into this category? Hermione is every bit as "average" as Ginny. In fact in some ways Ginny has a maturity and wisdom that Hermione doesn't. I'd say both girls are equal in dealing with Harry's "old soul".

I see what Hermione has done and I see what Ginny has done... Nope, Hermione and Ginny are not equal. Then again it's not easy to compete against someone who has been playing an important role from the beginning...
Ginny is showing maturity and wisdom that Hermione doesn't? Where? No, honestly, which of the 5 scenes where Ginny plays actually a more major role do you mean? When she doesn't question Harry's motive? Or where she doesn't remind him of the consequences his actions might have?

[McBeth]

First of all, it remains to be seen if Luna is even correct to believe ALL the things she does. Second, for her these are more issues of "belief" or faith rather than Harry's experience of having first-hand knowledge of something an not being believed. Plus, JK tells us those days are pretty much over for Harry whereas they're likely to continue for Luna.

Unfortunately, we have no idea whether Luna bases her beliefs solely on faith or not. She could have actually seen a Crumple-Horned Snorkack. ;)

I see your point, though.

I do give Luna a lot of credit for what she accomplished in that scene. However, it has active and passive components. The passive being that she had the shared perspective (which is nice but, as I've said, not necessary for romance in my opinion) and the active (knowing he needed comfort and purposely saying the things she did to provide it) being something that others could conceivably help with too, as far as helping him with his grief.

To me what really sets Luna apart is that belief in what's behind the veil and it fits with my view of her as a kind of spiritual guide. I see the role ultimately as more functional in the plot.

Also remember that Ginny is the one who informed Luna that Sirius was Harry's godfather. We don't know that nature of that conversation or any of the other content but if Ginny and Luna were discussing Harry's loss then I think Ginny did have a role in this, even if it was incidental.

[This is just an aside and I can't really elaborate but to me the wonderful absurdities we see with Luna fit nicely with some views I have on Neville...unfortunately they are some kind of wacky theories about that plot that REALLY don't belong in this thread; I'll just say they are definitely absurd]

I have a question - what do you make of the "She walked away from him, and as he watched her go, he felt the terrible weight in his stomach seemed to lessen slightly."

I don't see how that affects the plot-line, yet I think JKR made it a bit too dramatic for Harry to regard her as a friend and nothing more in the future, but that's just my opinion.

[delemtri]

Ginny is showing maturity and widom that Hermione doesn't? Where? No, honestly, which of the 5 scenes where Ginny plays actually a more major role do you mean? When she doesn't question Harry's motive? Or where she doesn't remind him of the consequences his actions might have?

Exactly - like her brother(s), Ginny is loyal, faithful, steadfast, and brave. How typical. *yawn*

I have a question - what do you make of the "She walked away from him, and as he watched her go, he felt the terrible weight in his stomach seemed to lessen slightly."

I don't see how that affects the plot-line, yet I think JKR made it a bit too dramatic for Harry to regard her as a friend and nothing more in the future, but that's just my opinion.

When a loved one dies, *everything* is dramatic.

[McBeth]

But how do we know that won't change?

How do we know it will?

By looking at Ron's personality, regardless of any immature and/or dense moments he may have, I cannot see him ever having an appreciation for someone like Luna, expecially since he grew up in a house under the eye of a very, very level-headed and practical woman.

He doesn't have to have an interest in them. Just an understanding of how Luna works.

You mean to say Ron has an understanding of how Luna works because she does ramble about her beliefs at times? I never got that impression - I thought he dismissed her as mental and nothing more.

[mrs_bombadil]

I agree that they had struggles - but again, there are many other things Harry has had to go through with Voldemort as well, and there are many other things that Ginny doesn't have an understanding of.

I don't think any one person is going to be able to mirror Harry's experiences and don't think they need to.

Yes I do, because I believe you either have to actually go through similar experiences yourself, or be an extremely intuitive and understanding person.

or be an extremely intuitive and understanding person

Ginny brought Luna and Neville into the group; she has given these 2 the most credit all along. I think Ginny has shown a lot of ability to value different kinds of people with different experiences and perspectives. Remember, she and Luna were the ones who facilitated the use of the thestrals. Ginny's reaction after her father was attacked (the wide awake staring into the fire) shows a certain depth and resolve and....well, I won't turn these exchanges into longer OT appraisals ;)

The reason I mentioned that is because I've often heard people say a Harry/Luna relationship would be too depressing - but I think the same applies to Harry/Ginny.

My vision for Harry/Ginny is only depressing if one or both of them dies. Otherwise I see great fun and excitement in it. My initial, superficial reaction to Harry/Luna kind of makes me think "dreary" but I have faith in whatever JK writes.

Why do you see it as a check for Ginny, yet only a possibly check in the pro column for Luna?

Believe it or not because of the fact that's Luna's scene was about such a major issue. She was the right person at the right time. With Ginny, I see it as more of a "mundane" (can't really find the best word) type of comfort that could happen repeatedly, about different things. Not just right person right time but seems to have more potential to be right person, a lot of the time. I'm not sure if I've made sense here....sorry.

[Adel]

Exactly - like her brother(s), Ginny is loyal, faithful, steadfast, and brave. How typical. *yawn*

Yeah and not thinking about the consequences and what dangers some actions can have. Yeah, I'm so relieved Harry has still Hermione.

[delemtri]

Yeah and not thinking about conequences and what dangers some actions can have. Yeah, I'm relieved Harry has still Hermione.

Me too. I'm glad Ron has her too. And I'm glad their babies will have both of them.

[McBeth]

I have a question to all Luna/Harry shippers. Even though I really like the idea of Harry and Luna, what do you make of JKR's quotes regarding Ginny?

In Book IV Harry does decide he likes a girl, but it's not Hermione or Ginny. However, he's only 14, so there's plenty of time for him to change his mind. ;-) Scholastic Chat (February 2000)

I really don't know if it's forshadowing for Chocolate or Harmony or not. Frankly, it seems JKR is stated that Harry could change his mind about any girl.

Poor Ginny, languishing in love for Harry, and he's merrily asking out other girls right under her nose! But that's just a boy thing. Time Pacific Article (December 2000)

I don't know what to make of this - but I really don't see it as particularly pro-Chocolate, because oblivion is a boy thing. :lol:


[Will Harry ever notice the long-suffering Ginny Weasley?] You'll see... poor Ginny, eh? Comic Relief chat (March 2001)

Considering this was in 2001, I don't see this as promoting Chocolate - it would have been one thing if the interview had been after OotP's release (obviously), but it wasn't. Instead, Ginny would have been pitied if she always liked Harry, but Harry never liked her back. But Ginny has moved on from her school-girl crush. She's not "long-suffering" anymore, to our knowledge.

[mrs_bombadil]

I have a question - what do you make of the "She walked away from him, and as he watched her go, he felt the terrible weight in his stomach seemed to lessen slightly."

I don't see how that affects the plot-line, yet I think JKR made it a bit too dramatic for Harry to regard her as a friend and nothing more in the future, but that's just my opinion.

Well, because what Luna helped him realize was that he wasn't as alone as he thought. It was very dramatic, as delemtri said. If she was to be a love interest, maybe he should have been a little reluctant to let her go, I don't know.

But I like the imagery of watching her go because he does it earlier in the story with Ginny until Cho happens to divert his attention away. :evil:

[Adel]

Me too. I'm glad Ron has her too. And I'm glad their babies will have both of them.

Unfortunately, Hermione will run off with Harry before it gets to that.

[Anakin Solo]

oh thought you meant an actual 12 like #12 Grimmauld Place, or the twelve rooms in the spinning chamber in the DoM, sorry I don't think 1/2 counts as a 12, but who knows, I'm not omnipotent, heck I can't speel most of the time ;)
CD


I get you and understand, Luna is cool, i like people who think out-of-the-box, makes me feel better when others snub their noses at conventional thinking too, oh and another Ginny thing, she can be blunt with Harry like Hermione-Christmas, but soothing like Luna-Library, and this balance would be an awesome thing for Harry, granted my opinion only :D
CD





Harry will always be closest to Hermone. She will be in all of his classes, they will always hang out together in the common room, they will eat lunch together...We know Harry valued his friendship with Hermoine more than Cho, and when Cho started to bad mouth Hermione well...they broke up. Luna has already shown some friction with Hermione. If Harry has to give up his Quote: "Platonic" relationship with Hermione in order to date Luna, then he'll drop Luna IMO.

[delemtri]

Unfortunately, Hermione will run off with Harry before it gets to that.

Yeah, she'll sweep him away with her good judgment.

Harry will always be closest to Hermone. She will be in all of his classes, they will always hang out together in the common room, they will eat lunch together...We know Harry valued his friendship with Hermoine more than Cho, and when Cho started to bad mouth Hermione well...they broke up. Luna has already shown some friction with Hermione. If Harry has to give up his Quote: "Platonic" relationship with Hermione in order to date Luna, then he'll drop Luna IMO.

She's not in all of his classes now and will be in even fewer next year after OWL results.

[Charmed Cheese]

Ok I know that the question wasn't for me but I hope you don't mind if I have a try on it. :p Ginny seem to have a reverse role with Harry. In book 2 Ginny was posessed in book 5 Harry was posessed both times by Mr. moldivoldy Harry was a seeker, Ginny replaced him as a seeker in book 5. In CoS Lockhart asks Harry for help with his fan mail to fans like Gladys Gudgeon. In OotP Lockhart asks Ginny for help with his fan mail odly enough the same woman is mention again. In book 2 Ginny thought he was going insane and in book 5 Harry things he's going insane. I'll shut up now in case that wasn't the original person asked.

Gily Ann

That's a great point. I've always felt for Harry and Ginny to get together they have break out of the Hero/damsel cliche and become equals. Role reversal is the first step. Now, I'm anticpating Ginny being the one to save Harry's life in the next few books and they can be equals. :)

[Lady Vorn]

Did JK really say that!!!?? Can you tell me the interview it was said in? Ya I doubt she meant Hermione..I mean I really think JK is leaning way towards Hr/R than Hr/H. I think she meant Ginny too because who else could it have been?

I wish I could remeber, but I dont! It was like three years ago or something. I know it was an online chat, possibly CBBC Newsround, but I'm really not sure.......