Kosher Laws: Do they apply now?

[Lupin27]

The Kosher Laws seem to make up a large part of the Jewish faith. But do they really apply now?

Think of when they were written. They were written in a very primitive time as far as technology goes. What can't we eat? Pigs. Shellfish. These creatures live in their own filth and eat the most disgusting things.

You see what I'm getting at? The Kosher Laws were started as health laws. You eat the meat of a disgusting animal, you get sick. There were no food processing plants or refrigeration units back then. There are now, so we can eat these things with minimal risk.

Out of that came the milk/meat thing, which states "Do not boil the calf in the milk of its mother" (italic mine). It says nothing about drinking milk while eating chicken or having cheeseburgers.

I don't even know how the seperate plates grew out of that. That bit is just very silly.

So should the Kosher laws still apply in today's sterile environment? At the very least, I think, we should accept those Jews (like me) who do not keep kosher buit still practice the religion.

[Rosie Cotton]

The rules do apply to some forms of Judaism, but not to others. The Orthodox Jews follow it to the letter, the Hasidic Jews a little less, the Conservative Jews some, and the Liberal Jews keep very little of the Kosher Law.

I'm not Jewish, so if I'm incorrect, I'm sorry, and it wasn't meant as offense.

[Lupin27]

That's okay. I know how it all pans out. My question is that is it still necessary?

[Rosie Cotton]

Well, some of the rules I follow I don't really understand why. They just believe that God has the whole picture. The Israelites followed it and they didn't understand the benefit of it, they just did it out of obedience.

From my theocratic standpoint, I don't think it's neccesary. The Mosaic Law, particularly the law of sacrifice was fulfilled by Christ's Sacrifice, but the Jewish don't see him as the Messiah, so they don't think that it has been fulfilled yet.

[Lupin27]

Right. He was a nice jewish boy who had a lot of good ideas and was treated cruelly. Messiah? I don't think so.

[Rosie Cotton]

They had a different idea of what he was going to be though.

[busy91]

I'm not sure if you are soley talking about kosher killing or kosher storage or kosher eating?

The laws apply because the Torah says so. Just like Christians do a lot of outdated things because the Bible says so.

Other than that simple answer I found this blurb:

Many modern Jews think that the laws of kashrut are simply primitive health regulations that have become obsolete with modern methods of food preparation. There is no question that some of the dietary laws have some beneficial health effects. For example, the laws regarding kosher slaughter are so sanitary that kosher butchers and slaughterhouses have been exempted from many USDA regulations.

However, health is not the only reason for Jewish dietary laws. Many of the laws of kashrut have no known connection with health. To the best of our modern scientific knowledge, there is no reason why camel or rabbit meat (both treyf) is any less healthy than cow or goat meat. In addition, some of the health benefits to be derived from kashrut were not made obsolete by the refrigerator. For example, there is some evidence that eating meat and dairy together interferes with digestion, and no modern food preparation technique reproduces the health benefit of the kosher law of eating them separately.

The short answer to why we observe these laws is: because the Torah says so. The Torah does not specify any reason for these laws, and for a Torah-observant, traditional Jew, there is no need for any other reason. Some have suggested that the laws of kashrut fall into the category of "chukkim," laws for which there is no reason. We show our obedience to G-d by following these laws even though we do not know the reason. Others, however, have tried to ascertain G-d's reason for imposing these laws.

[LunaGoldstein]

And it depends on how you define Kosher. For me, my idea of kosher is ordering the bacon sandwhich but feeling guilty about it:) I agree with the blurb, it's not a rational thing so much as it's part of tradition that gives alot of people structure. There's a certain solidarity to knowing that everyone in your culture is eating the same things. Besides, kosher meat, especially chicken, is quite tasty indeed.
I do think it's odd that chicken is included in the no milk with meat rule, but alas fish is exempt. When I went to Israel I was amazed that even the restaurants are either milk or meat, and most of them are milk so there's alot of veggie, egg salad, and tuna sandwiches.
Personally I think pigs are cute creatures but I'll agree that live shellfish are disgusting, and yet I still love to eat shrimp. (but I hate the kind with the legs still attached!) But as I have fear of most insects, live lobsters creep me out.

[Lupin27]

Right, but I don't remember the torah ever saying you can't have dairy on the same plate that you had meat on yesterday. That's the bit that kind of scares me. I mean, the rest of the kosher laws I can see even if I don't follow it. But I would like to know where it was that my ancestors decided that they needed to have separate plates for things and they can never be mixed. If you ask me, that seems incredibly OCD.

I think a problem with many religions is an inflexibility. Say you were stuck on a desert island where the only food was a type of non-kosher animal, though in great abundance. Would you starve? I know some people who just might.

I don't know. Perhaps I'm not getting something. Perhaps I'm just bitter at people who say I shouldn't consider myself jewish just because I don't keep kosher.

[LunaGoldstein]

It doesnt say that in the torah, yes, I guess it just depends on tradition.
Intrestingly, the Torah does dictate that if it was a choice between eating non-kosher and starving, that you are commanded not to starve and eat what you need to stay alive. And while you're encouraged to do things like fast on Yom Kippur, it's actually a sin to deny yourself necessary sustenance if you need it, like if you take medication. Who tells you you're not Jewish if you don't keep Kosher? Don't listen to them, they are jerks and you'll find that Judaism of all the major religions is the most flexible.

[Rosie Cotton]

I think a problem with many religions is an inflexibility. Say you were stuck on a desert island where the only food was a type of non-kosher animal, though in great abundance. Would you starve? I know some people who just might.
Yep, I know this lady who has a medical profession and this other person on a plane was having low blood pressure and stuff and it took them about 10 minutes to find a kosher knife to cut an apple with!

[LeeJordanfan]

I don't remember the torah ever saying you can't have dairy on the same plate that you had meat on yesterday. That's the bit that kind of scares me. I mean, the rest of the kosher laws I can see even if I don't follow it. But I would like to know where it was that my ancestors decided that they needed to have separate plates for things and they can never be mixed. If you ask me, that seems incredibly OCD.I'm not Jewish, but let me see if I can clarify it a bit...

The Jewish community has traditionally built what you might call a "ring around the Torah". They don't want to break God's laws, even by accident, if they can avoid it. So there are a set of rules to help the Jewish believer avoid breaking God's laws. One of God's laws is "never boil a kid in it's mother's milk". (This definition of kid by the way means "young animal", it's doesn't mean "young human being".) God didn't tell this to the Jewish people once, but twice. It's in both Exodus and Deuteronomy. So it's taken particularly seriously. If you keep all of your meat and dairy seperate then you will never accidentally combine a young animal with it's mother's milk.

RosieCotton: The Jewish person could have requested a kosher meal for the plane, which comes with utensils. Or brought her own. All airlines that serve food in the U.S. have a kosher option. I've ordered it myself when I flew, just because I think it tastes better than ordinary airline food. Any Jewish person who adheres to kosher should know that.

[ComicBookWorm]

The rules do apply to some forms of Judaism, but not to others. The Orthodox Jews follow it to the letter, the Hasidic Jews a little less, the Conservative Jews some, and the Liberal Jews keep very little of the Kosher Law.

I'm not Jewish, so if I'm incorrect, I'm sorry, and it wasn't meant as offense.Hasidic Jews are more Orthodox than Orthodox Jews. They follow a sticter more traditional lifestyle, including the way they dress and wear their hair. The Hasidim are also referred to as the Ultra-Orthodox.

The term isn't Liberal Jews, it is Reform Jews. Very few Reform Jews keep kosher at all.

Pigs carried trichinosis and some shellfish and snails carry schistosomiasis so these two worm infections were good reasons not to eat pig or shellfish. Kosher slaughter techniques (draining the blood, etc.) were certainly more sanitary--especially without refrigeration, and could also get rid of blood-born pathagens. The dairy and meat prohibition never made any sense. And the extensions of that requiring that if a dairy utensil touched a meat utensil, it should be buried is just plain odd.

I love pork and all shellfish (except snails :td: )

Right. He was a nice jewish boy who had a lot of good ideas and was treated cruelly. Messiah? I don't think so.Exactly.

[LeeJordanfan]

Oops. I'm sorry ComicBookWorm. In the UK, a spinoff off of British Reform Judaism is a branch known as "Liberal Judaism"...I should have been more clear. I didn't mean it in the usual way that Americans think of "Liberal".

Sorry if that came out as negative.

[ComicBookWorm]

Oops. I'm sorry ComicBookWorm. In the UK, a spinoff off of British Reform Judaism is a branch known as "Liberal Judaism"...I should have been more clear. I didn't mean it in the usual way that Americans think of "Liberal".

Sorry if that came out as negative.No problem, I wondered if the terminology could be different elsewhere. I am a non-practicing Jew who did not have much religious training even as a child. I am not the most highly qualified representative of Kosher law or Judaism in general.

[LeeJordanfan]

ComicBookWorm, thanks for encouraging the clarification. Too often in the U.S., the term "Liberal Jew" is meant in a completely derogatory manner. Being a U.S. native, I should have thought of that.

In any case, neither group of Jewish people see keeping kashrut as a religious obligation.

[Rosie Cotton]

They thought that the Messiah was going to be a zealot who would free them from the Romans. That wasn't what Christ was.

[ComicBookWorm]

They thought that the Messiah was going to be a zealot who would free them from the Romans. That wasn't what Christ was.
Rosie this isn't a thread to argue Christianity or messiahs or any other issues relating that. We are discussing Kosher laws and not religion--and especially not Christian doctrine.

[legstump]

Well, if the Torah is Divine and its message is for the generations, its commandments are for the spiritual purification of its people, then what's the question. ;)

[SGosling]

They thought that the Messiah was going to be a zealot who would free them from the Romans. That wasn't what Christ was.

As far as I aware Zealots and orthodox Jews believe that there would be four messiahs each with a specific task to do

The Messiah as military leader
The Messiah as sage
The Messiah as high-priest
The 'prophet like Moses'

Jesus did not fit in with any of the roles assigned
there are four things that all Messiahs must have:

Because the Messiah is anointed, he is either a king, a prophet or a priest.
The Messiah is a royal person. He is usually called 'son of David' or 'prince' (nasi).
The Messiah will restore Israel.
The Messiah is a human being, but has a very important place in God's salvation plan.

[Lupin27]

Who tells you you're not Jewish if you don't keep Kosher? Don't listen to them, they are jerks and you'll find that Judaism of all the major religions is the most flexible.

It's Jews my age who grew up with more orthodox families.

It really is the most flexible religion of the three majors, but it's still inflexible in many respects. Or course, I lay the blame with the people who are currently in power, who I believe are the reason, in all the religions, that people become disenchanted with their faiths.

But that's a discussion for another thread.

P.S. Love the siggy, Luna. Voldy or a Dementor?

[KlutzyFreak]

I have a very good friend of mine who is Jewish, and every time we go to McDonalds he has to eat a Bacon Ranch Crispy Chicken. I asked him about it being against his religion, but he just waved it off, saying that even if he doesn't follow all the traditions (some that are outdated in his eyes), he is still a Jew because of his faith in God.

I just thought that the way he said it (in a way that was much more profound then the simplified version that I wrote above) gave me the impression that even if he doesn't keep Kosher, he is still firm in his beliefs.

Does that make sense?

[LunaGoldstein]

P.S. Love the siggy, Luna. Voldy or a Dementor?

A dementor, mwaha:) From Red Scharlach's drawings, she did an icon page here http://www.redscharlach.co.uk/icons.html Check out the rest of her site, very nifty art.


I'm very sorry you had that experience, Orthadox Judaism isn't for me either. I was raised Conservative but now in college since Hillel is mostly Reform, I'll probably end up in that, I just prefer it. Reform and Reconstructionist Judiasm might be more to your liking too.

[legstump]

I have a very good friend of mine who is Jewish, and every time we go to McDonalds he has to eat a Bacon Ranch Crispy Chicken. I asked him about it being against his religion, but he just waved it off, saying that even if he doesn't follow all the traditions (some that are outdated in his eyes), he is still a Jew because of his faith in God.

I just thought that the way he said it (in a way that was much more profound then the simplified version that I wrote above) gave me the impression that even if he doesn't keep Kosher, he is still firm in his beliefs.

Does that make sense?




Erm yes and no.

let me put it this way, Judaism has a unique way of defining who is a Jew. Our Torah tell us that one criteria (besides conversion) of deciding who a Jew is being born to a Jewish mother.
Therefore as long as one has that criteria, even if he sins, even if converts to another religion we still consider him a Jew. With other religions , (correct me if I am wrong) its very much faith based, if you believe your a follower of that faith and if not , Your not.

That being said, The Torah was given to purify the Jewish people. Its laws are meant for the spiritual perfection of the Holy ones people. There is a divine reasoning behind its observance tthat is not always readily understandable unless you have really delved deeply into the subject with authentic Jewish sources.

We also believe a person has free choice, whether to chose good or evil and will be awarded accordingly. In fact its explained that if one would truly realize with the act of a sin he is removing himself or herself from G-d presence, they would never do a sin a day in their lives. Its the evil inclination who would have us believe other wise.

so in other words , A jew knows he remains a jew no matter what , he just tries to convince himself that this will not ruin his relationship with G-d.

[ComicBookWorm]

I'll add to that even though what I'm going to add is a little OT for this thread. In the US they have a term called Secular Jew. In some ways it's a little sad, since it's populated by people of Jewish decent who do not practice Judaism. I say that it's a little sad because it represents how thoroughly Jews have become assimilated here, that we are even abandoning our religion. However being a Jew is so much more. There is a cultural, historical, and ethic identity that extends back millenia. I'm very proud of my Jewish heritage and culture. Fiercely so. But I'm an atheist--so I call myself a Jewish Atheist (notice the Jewish identity is first). No one in my family ever kept Kosher and although my parents were raised in a traditional Orthodox Kosher household, by the time they raised me, they were loosely Reform Jews who did not keep Kosher.

Legstump, I notice that you don't spell out God which means you are Orthodox and are following the prohibition against saying the lord's name. So what I'm describing to you about Secular Jews must seem odd.

There are now Secular Jewish groups forming to observe Jewish holidays and traditions so those customs don't get lost. However, they don't have the religious element. I know this will sound strange to practicing Jews, but it's sort of Judaism without God.

[legstump]

Its not odd in the fact there are secular Jews everywhere, and especially in Australia where I grew up.Thats a fact of life.
How you can perform Jewish holidays and traditions with out a religous element, well thats a topic for another time...;)

[ComicBookWorm]

Its not odd in the fact there are secular Jews everywhere, and especially in Australia where I grew up.Thats a fact of life.
How you can perform Jewish holidays and traditions with out a religous element, well thats a topic for another time...;)
I don't participate. But the groups I know of go through the observances without the prayers. I can easily see a Passover Seder with the Four Questions and edited Hagadah.