CoSForums Archive - Who Will fall in love with whom? v.42

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valeriehall343

December 30th, 2004, 1:00 am

Originally posted by Miss ERB
Well you cant really say Hermione has a crush on Harry from a picture. Also isnt is possible she's concerned because he's her friend, not because she has a crush on him? Harry was about to do something very dangerous and I'm sure any friend would be concerned. I'm sure Ron would have been there as well if he and Harry hadn't been fighting.

ya im just saying that i think the movies are being ambiguous on purpose just like the books, because the scene could be interpreted the way you just said, or the way i said (my main point was the ambiguity, not the h/hr-ness of the movies)

Tzigone

December 30th, 2004, 1:09 am

Personally, I find abiguity in neither the movies nor the books.

GrangerGal

December 30th, 2004, 1:15 am

Truth is a good 30 % of those insults were done to Hermione's back. Very healthy relationship, ain't it. I am sure that is exactly the kind of message JKR wants to give to young girls. It's Ok to be insulted, belittled, scorned, and talked badly at your back. After all, the guy likes you in the bottom of his heart and may some day make a move. That's the essence of love, go for it!!

(I'm afraid I agree with that person who said that Hermione has become Ron's friend merely for Harry's sake. These quotes can very well be proof of that)
But ALL of Harry's negative comments about Hermione and SPEW are to her back. Is that the kind of message JKR wants to send.

Also the pages you cited on page 170 of this thread are easily debatable. Although Ron and Hermione fight, they fight the same fights over and over again. Plus you make some of the fights seem to be may fights when they are actually are one "fight" that happens over the course of two or three pages. For the most part, Ron and Hermione get along. They disagree over SPEW, homework, and Krum. Hermione says just as many insults to Ron and Ron does to her. Their feelings of disapproval are far more open than Harry's feelings of disapproval towards either one. If someone wants an open relationship, they do not have to look any further! ;)

valeriehall343

December 30th, 2004, 1:17 am

HedwigOwl

December 30th, 2004, 1:25 am

Exactly, JKR has spent the last 5 books developing Harry and Hermione's friendship not their love relationship. 2 people of the opposite sex can be close friends without it turning into romance. Harry and Ginny's relationship will be different fron Harry/ Hermione because that will be a romantic relationship.

strong friendships between members of the opposite sex often turn romantic.....

I think it's too hard to call in any case...they're teenagers after all, lots of sorting out going on.

courtly

December 30th, 2004, 1:30 am

We can only wait until HBP and the 7th books come out for our predictions to come true.

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 1:44 am

I definitly believe in a Harry/Ginny ship in the next two books, if for no other reason them because a Harry/Ginny baby would be beautiful (OK, OK - I know we will probably not see any such baby in the book unless JKR wants a teenage pregnancy which I sincerly doubt she will, but still) A little girl with Harry's green eyes, a mix between Ginny's red hair and Harry's black turning it to a dark copper shade, somewhat messy (like daddy) maybe curly...name? Lily of course :) Dreaming I know, but wouldn't she be cute? :clap:

bellamere

December 30th, 2004, 1:50 am

Ron and Hermione! duh! if you haven't noticed, you should open your eyes. its out there in the open, and some people haven't even seen it!

MPPMarauderGirl

December 30th, 2004, 1:51 am

Yes thats flirting when your 10 and playing kiss chase in the play ground. OK 16/17 year olds dont play them kind of kids of games. Because it what kids do.

Not necessarily. My boyfriend flirts with me like that sometimes too. It's never a definite thing.

When Ron called him Vicky in OOTP. Did we see Hermione react in a good way no. She was bored. Because Ron still needs to grow up.

Then, later in OotP when Hermione writes the letter to Viktor, Ron keeps his mouth closed - not wanting to irriate Hermione. That's a sign of growing up. :p

mrs_bombadil

December 30th, 2004, 1:56 am

basically my above post was a response to the general feeling of "the movies are all r/hr and why would JKR let them be that way if the books werent going to end up that way"

i think they are just as ambiguos as the books, and will continue to be, especially when ginny and luna are introduced in the movies (i know ginnys already there i just mean when she has a big role again), just as their role in OoTP the book made the shipping questions more confusing.

You may find them ambiguous but keep in mind I am not done presenting my argument. I'll tell ya the short version--the moviemakers do not discuss the shipping as at ALL ambiguous. I have more to post...

You can argue that they're wrong or that things will change but I hope once I'm done you will agree that R/Hr is exactly what they are trying to portray. All of those H/Hr sweet moments are probably intended to be friendly/familial but not romantic.

I'm not trying to stifle debate about what I've posted thus far...feel free to take a closer look at the quotes themselves, or try to find some that are H/Hr or even go ahead and state your opinion (although I'm not sure you can be so definitive without having the entire case I'm making...as it looks like refusal to consider the information and just stick to a particular personal preference no matter what! :huh: )

courtly

December 30th, 2004, 1:57 am

Ron and Hermione! duh! if you haven't noticed, you should open your eyes. its out there in the open, and some people haven't even seen it!

Not that I don't agree with the R/Hr ship, you have going, but what exactly is your post referring to? :p

Firebolt2004

December 30th, 2004, 1:58 am

I'm not saying that I don't agree with a Harry/Ginny romance, but what is your evidence?

Anyways, you know how Ron's super-protective about the guys Ginny dates? Well, if Ginny goes out with Harry, he can finally lighten up!

I guess I should clarify my statement by saying that, in the last 5 books JKR has done a fabulous job of developing a close friendship between the trio without giving any obvious tones of romance or love interest between Harry and Hermione but giving an underlying tension and awareness of each other between Ron and Hermione. And although the readers and Harry know about Ginny from book 1 there is no close friendship between Harry and her, leaving JKR the opportunity to develop that relationship in a romantic way if she choses to do so.

Snidget66

December 30th, 2004, 2:12 am

Everyone is saying that Ron and Hermione will end up together and from the looks of it this may very well be true. But maybe jk has different intentions for Hermione. She could end up with Harry. I am not a H/H shipper nor am I a R/H shipper. I am just making a valid point.

IceKat55

December 30th, 2004, 2:22 am

i think they are just as ambiguos as the books, and will continue to be, especially when ginny and luna are introduced in the movies (i know ginnys already there i just mean when she has a big role again), just as their role in OoTP the book made the shipping questions more confusing.
I have to disagree. The movies are not meant to be ambiguous, they are not filmed that way at all. The R/Hr tension is meant to be screamingly obvious on screen, with the most obvious scene being the 'wrist grab' in PoA.

The filmmakers start with a wide-angle shot, showing Hermione's hand grabbing Ron's arm, and sliding down. Then they cut to a close-up shot of her hand on his wrist. They are telling the audience, quite blatantly, "Look here, people! We've got physical contact here, don't miss this!" They then pull back to another wide shot of their faces as they realize their close, physical proximity to each other, and they pull awkwardly away.

The 'almost hug' at the end of CoS is the 2nd best example. Hermione runs toward her friends, and has no problem hugging Harry. There is no romantic tension bubbling between them, therefore there is no reason for them to be uncomfortable hugging each other. Then they pull back to a wide shot, and show Hermione turning to Ron, raising her arms to hug him. They each realize what they're about to do, and freeze. Close up of Hermione's face, she casts her eyes shyly downward. Cut to close up of Ron - - he begins to stutter nervously. Then, they shake hands. The tension is illustrated between them by the individual close ups, showing their reactions (again!) to their close, physical proximity to each other.

The filmmakers do not show Harry/Hermione interactions this way, despite ample opportunity. They do not show any lingering tension or hints of confused feelings between them. Those types of shots are reserved, specifically, for R/Hr. But these R/Hr shots are why most Harmonians choose not to acknowledge the movies as canon, because, well, "they aren't canon!" ;)

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 2:30 am

Hmm, you may like reading my essay, Full Moon (the link is in my sig), to learn more about the concepts and points of the Harry/Luna relationship. :)

Yeah, that essay was pretty convincing. :cool: I still don't think there will definitely be a romance between Harry and Luna, but there definitely is a possibility.

I could see Harry getting tired of Ron's and Hermione's constant biggoring (he has after all already started to show signs of this in the books) and decide to play match maker to make it stop. I could even see him getting Ginny involved in the plan which would give them the opportunity to get to know each other even better (beggining of their romance perhaps) :) And of course Harry running of with Ginny would be the perfect way of making Hermione and Ron spend more time alone with each other since Ron probably would jump up and down of excitement if he thought Harry and Ginny were getting involved, making sure no one disturbes them when they are alone and so on. Hey that would be a twist - Harry and Ginny spending time together so that Ron and Hermione can work out what they feel for each other and Ron and Hermione spending time together so that Harry and Ginny can fall in love... :eyebrows:

Yes, that could happen... but I highly doubt it. Or at least not exactly how you described it. Think of all the schoolwork they all have, then combine it with quidditch and keeping safe from Voldemort, and there probably wouldn't be enough time for Harry to play matchmaker. Plus, I've never really seen Harry as the type of person who would play matchmaker... Maybe Ginny, though. I'm not saying that's a bad idea. In fact, it's a pretty good storyline. But I don't think it will actually happen that way in the book.

Snidget66

December 30th, 2004, 2:30 am

I have to disagree. The movies are not meant to be ambiguous, they are not filmed that way at all. The R/Hr tension is meant to be screamingly obvious on screen, with the most obvious scene being the 'wrist grab' in PoA.

The filmmakers start with a wide-angle shot, showing Hermione's hand grabbing Ron's arm, and sliding down. Then they cut to a close-up shot of her hand on his wrist. They are telling the audience, quite blatantly, "Look here, people! We've got physical contact here, don't miss this!" They then pull back to another wide shot of their faces as they realize their close, physical proximity to each other, and they pull awkwardly away.

The 'almost hug' at the end of CoS is the 2nd best example. Hermione runs toward her friends, and has no problem hugging Harry. There is no romantic tension bubbling between them, therefore there is no reason for them to be uncomfortable hugging each other. Then they pull back to a wide shot, and show Hermione turning to Ron, raising her arms to hug him. They each realize what they're about to do, and freeze. Close up of Hermione's face, she casts her eyes shyly downward. Cut to close up of Ron - - he begins to stutter nervously. Then, they shake hands. The tension is illustrated between them by the individual close ups, showing their reactions (again!) to their close, physical proximity to each other.

The filmmakers do not show Harry/Hermione interactions this way, despite ample opportunity. They do not show any lingering tension or hints of confused feelings between them. Those types of shots are reserved, specifically, for R/Hr. But these R/Hr shots are why most Harmonians choose not to acknowledge the movies as canon, because, well, "they aren't canon!" ;)
Maybe the reason that the filmmakers didn't show any interactions between Harry and Hermione was because that JK hasn't given them any reason to but she might in the future. Harry and Hermione are as much of a possibility as ron and hermione are.

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 2:33 am

Even so, IceKat, no one can deny that there was much more 'physical contact' betweeen Harry and Hermione than Ron and Hermione in the third movie.

And, the reason that some people don't see the films as cannon is because the filmmakers are adding whatever elements they want into the movies and forming their own little 'side stories' based on what they think should happen. I do not recall any romantic 'stuff' going on between Ron and Hermione in books 1, 2 or 3. Yet, the movies are making it so that something is happening. It's controversial, and that's why the films shouldn't really be considered 'cannon'.

Snidget66

December 30th, 2004, 2:36 am

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 2:39 am

Maybe the reason that the filmmakers didn't show any interactions between Harry and Hermione was because that JK hasn't given them any reason to but she might in the future. Harry and Hermione are as much of a possibility as ron and hermione are.

But what's the canon from the books? I'm not saying that Harry and Hermione aren't a good match for each other, but I just would like some evidence.

Also, I would like to point out that in the movies, there are "interactions between Harry and Hermione". I was so absorbed in seeing the Ron/Hermione interactions that I didn't notice it until my friend pointed it out. But there is that one scene when they think Buckbeak has just been killed. I believe (if I remember right) that Hermione wraps her arms around Ron's neck and says something like "Oh no!" Then Harry walks up to the two of them, puts his hands on Hermione's shoulder, and leans his head on her shoulder.

Though the movies really shouldn't be counted as canon.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 30th, 2004, 2:39 am

If people say that Harry and Ginny (or Harry/Luna) can't happen because of time contraint, than how do you say that Harry has known Hermione all along and hasn't loved her, and that Harry doesn't know much about Luna and Ginny but can't love them either?

He would be spending time getting to know either girl, and falling in love with her. But he's known Hermione and he doesn't love her. How is it ruled out? How?

Angeltiger121

December 30th, 2004, 2:42 am

Snidget66

December 30th, 2004, 2:44 am

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 2:46 am

I don't think lupin would date anyone. I could imagine him reallt falling in love with someone, then her dumping him because he's a werewolf or because it's hard for him to get and keep a job. It would also probibly be weird if he was dating a girl and he was aging faster then herself, kind of like in Tuck-everlasting, exept backwords.

Yeah, it would be a little odd, but you never know. Do werewolves really age faster? Did I miss something?

But if Lupin did date (or is dating?) someone, I wonder who it is/was...

Harry is still a kid when you think about it. That crush he had on Cho well...she was pretty and that was why he liked her. As Harry grows up, he'll learn that looks aren't everything and maybe he'll see that he truly does like Hermione (or at least has some feelings for her).

Yes, but why Hermione of all people? I'm not saying they're a bad pairing, but why Hermione out of every other girl in Hogwarts?

The Garbage Man

December 30th, 2004, 2:49 am

While the film-makers are all over R/Hr, it is often missed that they've shown little-to-nothing concerning H/G. (In CoS I can only think of one time where Ginny exhibited romantic interest in Harry; and that was only for a few seconds at the Burrow. I may be wrong; I haven't watched the movies in awhile) And I don't remember seeing Ginny at all in PoA. So while the film-makers blatantly show R/Hr (Which should be a secondary sort of romance, as this IS Harry Potter, and he has the power-he-knows-not) it excludes Harry from any sort of foreshadowing. Does anyone else think this doesn't make any sense? Here's my explanation:

The R/Hr tension will be important later on in the story. (6 and 7; possibly leading to Ron having a conflict with Harry over Hermione, or something else. It'll be important) So, in order to demonstrate the tension more effectively in the movie (As they have to sort of cram it in) they make it much more obvious and make it earlier than in the books. (And will lead to the question of why Hermione will go with Krum in the GOF movie when she appears to like Ron in POA; but I'm not going to go there)

Hence, Harry will end up with Hermione in the end, but before it happens, there will be some sort of issue with Ron that is vital to the plot. Hence, Ginny's interest in Harry isn't as important, and is played down (Since she won't end up with Harry) and R/Hr is played up, so it will fit in with the plot later on in the books and movies. Regardless I see little in the movies that imply H/G, which is a very bad thing for Heron; that is, if you want to regard the movies at all.

For those who don't understand what I'm saying, I will make myself plainer: R/Hr romantic tension will play an important role in the plot in books 6 and 7, which is why it's shown so clearly in the movies; as the tension has to be more obvious in the movies, since we're not reading a book. However, the lack of H/G implies that that ship will not be important later on, which, as it's a certainty that Harry will end up with someone in the books, brings up H/Hr. Of course, this can be H/L, but I doubt it.

In essence, I think H/Hr vs R/Hr will be vital in books 6 and 7. JKR isn't going to set up R/Hr for no reason at all; it must have some effect on the plot that could not be gained any other way. The same is with H/g. My conjecture on this matter is that H/Hr vs R/Hr will cause conflict within the trio. While the HP series is not a soap opera, love is its #1 theme, and, as they say, love ain't easy.

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 2:50 am

These two editorials from Mugglenet do a very good job of explaining the Harry/Hermione romance possibility, if some of you are looking for evidence in the books that could point toward such a relationship. I suggest you all read them, they're quite enjoyable.

This one (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-turambar.shtml) provides a great summary of the relationship developing throughout the novels, while this one (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-player01.shtml) focuses in very exact detail on all the main parts of book 5.

Firebolt2004

December 30th, 2004, 2:50 am

Harry is still a kid when you think about it. That crush he had on Cho well...she was pretty and that was why he liked her. As Harry grows up, he'll learn that looks aren't everything and maybe he'll see that he truly does like Hermione (or at least has some feelings for her).

I disagree, Harry himself stated that he doesn't think that Hermione is ugly, so her looks or lack thereof will not affect their relationship. I think it will be her personality and her nagging that will prevent Harry from developing a romantic relationship with hermione.

Baroness

December 30th, 2004, 2:50 am

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 2:53 am

Oh, and I think we can dismiss the possibility of Harry and Luna pairing off, since JKR has already said that Harry's romantic interest will be someone who's been in all the books thus far.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 30th, 2004, 2:55 am

Wasn't that a rumor with the LI being in all books?

Answer me, Harmony: Why can't someone be brought in as Harry's LI?

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 2:56 am

The Garbage Man

December 30th, 2004, 2:56 am

Oh, and I think we can dismiss the possibility of Harry and Luna pairing off, since JKR has already said that Harry's romantic interest will be someone who's been in all the books thus far.

Really? Where?

But the movies can't really be used as canon, can they? Though there is a lot of evidence of a Ron/Hermione romance in the books, so I get your point. It's very interesting. Though, I don't see why a Ron/Hermione romance has to be very significant to the plot. It could just be for our entertainment.

No, the movies aren't cannon, but I'm just spewing out some theories out in the mix, that's all. I believe R/Hr tension would be very important to future plots simply because JKR has been building on it for so long, and it would seem like a complete waste if it wasn't somehow involved with either the theme or plot. I can't think of anything else JKR put in her books that was simple for entertainment purposes; at least not anything that spanned 2 (so far) books.

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 2:57 am

But shouldn't it be taken into consideration? I thought JKR told the directors who was going to end up with who.

I saw the interview with her in the DVD version of PoA, and I think JKR made it quite plain that she had not revealed any more secret information to them than to us, the main audience. Only she knows what's coming in the last two books....

Really? Where?

Someone told me they saw it on her official website, so you can check there.

Snidget66

December 30th, 2004, 2:59 am

Yes, but why Hermione of all people? I'm not saying they're a bad pairing, but why Hermione out of every other girl in Hogwarts?[/QUOTE]

Because out of all the other girls at Hogwarts, Harry knows Hermione the best. Not that I'm saying it's a full proof thing but it is an advantage.

I disagree, Harry himself stated that he doesn't think that Hermione is ugly, so her looks or lack thereof will not affect their relationship. I think it will be her personality and her nagging that will prevent Harry from developing a romantic relationship with hermione.
But those very attributes maybe the very thing that attracts Harry to Hermione.

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 2:59 am

Really? Where?

(Someone said "Oh, and I think we can dismiss the possibility of Harry and Luna pairing off, since JKR has already said that Harry's romantic interest will be someone who's been in all the books thus far.", and that's what The Garbage Man was replying to.)

So, does JKR mean his next "romantic interest", or all of his "romantic interests" in the future?

MPPMarauderGirl

December 30th, 2004, 3:03 am

Snidget66

December 30th, 2004, 3:04 am

who has been in all the books? ah yes Hermione.

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 3:05 am

Really? Where?

No, the movies aren't cannon, but I'm just spewing out some theories out in the mix, that's all. I believe R/Hr tension would be very important to future plots simply because JKR has been building on it for so long, and it would seem like a complete waste if it wasn't somehow involved with either the theme or plot. I can't think of anything else JKR put in her books that was simple for entertainment purposes; at least not anything that spanned 2 (so far) books.

Well, I'm not saying that it is purely for entertainment. I'm just saying that there could be a sub-plot, that isn't all about Voldemort or anything, so it's not exactly part of the "main plot". But not everything has to have to do with Harry to have it be part of the plot. Do you get what I mean?

MPPMarauderGirl

December 30th, 2004, 3:05 am

Ginny's been in all the books, too.

Miss ERB

December 30th, 2004, 3:05 am

(Someone said "Oh, and I think we can dismiss the possibility of Harry and Luna pairing off, since JKR has already said that Harry's romantic interest will be someone who's been in all the books thus far.", and that's what The Garbage Man was replying to.)

So, does JKR mean his next "romantic interest", or all of his "romantic interests" in the future?

What? When did JK say that Harry's romantic interest was in all the books so far?

Snidget66

December 30th, 2004, 3:06 am

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 3:06 am

who has been in all the books? ah yes Hermione.

Yes, Hermione, and also Ginny. Along with those two, Parvati, Lavender (Lavendar?), and many more. So there are a lot of possibilities.

Tzigone

December 30th, 2004, 3:06 am

Back that up please. I've heard it floating around before (although I heard it as "someone who's been around since the first book") but I've never heard the source. It's largely considered unsubstatiated in the sites I visit. The most I ever found was that it was in a magazine in a foreign language (German, I think) but no one could provide the original.

The Garbage Man

December 30th, 2004, 3:07 am

I figured that since JKR said it was obvious, this is what I see:

Even if all we say (everything was agreed upon)

Ron: likes Hermione
Hermione: debatable

Hermione: debatable
Harry: ...

Doesn't feel the same (whether he will or not is debatable).

Which is more obvious?

...in the movies. And with the way these movies are going, there's going to be plenty of changing around. Don't be surprised if in the GOD movie that there is a bit of a falling out between R and Hr....as, unless the movie decides just to make stuff up, Hr is going with Krum, which wouldn't make sense as they like each other in the movies. They got themselves in a pickle now...

Tzigone

December 30th, 2004, 3:08 am

Can we clarify here? It's my understanding that no one is arguing that the movies are canon. They are simply arguing that the movies are intended to be R/H.

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 3:08 am

rupertfan123

December 30th, 2004, 3:10 am

Oh, and I think we can dismiss the possibility of Harry and Luna pairing off, since JKR has already said that Harry's romantic interest will be someone who's been in all the books thus far.

If she did say that,then that means that we can assume that it can be Parvati,Lavender,Hermione,Pansy Parkinson,Susan Bones,Alicia Spinnet,Katie Bell,Angelina Johnson,Ginny,Hannah Abbot,Mandy Brocklehirst,Padma Patil,Lisa Turpin,etc...

P.S. If you're wondering where half these names are listed in the books,check out Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone,Chapter Seven,Pages 118-122.

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 3:11 am

MPPMarauderGirl

December 30th, 2004, 3:12 am

Harry's feelings may change in future.

They may. But he hasn't found a reason to like her before. Maybe... but maybe not!

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 3:13 am

Harry's feelings may change in future.

Yes, and if you all read those editorials like I suggested you will see how.

One of the many interesting things about Harry's developing feelings is how lying to Hermione is steadily becoming harder and more painful for him to do. Notice that in book 3, Harry could lie to Hermione without it affecting him at all. In book 4, when lying to Hermione about the egg, Harry always felt a deep sense of guilt. In book 5, when Harry's lying to Hermione about Occlumency, he can't even meet her eye anymore. And yet, Harry is still perfectly okay with lying to Ron about all these things.

rupertfan123

December 30th, 2004, 3:14 am

Miss ERB

December 30th, 2004, 3:14 am

And has JKR even said there will be a romance for Harry in HBP?

Yes she has said their will be a little romance for Harry and she also said he just might be getting another kiss or two. :eyebrows:

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 3:15 am

And has JKR even said there will be a romance for Harry in HBP?

She said he won't ever get back with Cho, but that in book 6, he will have a 'little romance'.

(Curses, Miss ERB, I was typing while you were posting. :evil: )

MPPMarauderGirl

December 30th, 2004, 3:15 am

...in the movies. And with the way these movies are going, there's going to be plenty of changing around. Don't be surprised if in the GOD movie that there is a bit of a falling out between R and Hr....as, unless the movie decides just to make stuff up, Hr is going with Krum, which wouldn't make sense as they like each other in the movies. They got themselves in a pickle now...

In the movies? Ooookay, sure!

Rupert Grint already said something about it, "In movie 2 there was a little bit of interaction with Ron and Hermione, in 3 there's a bit more, and in 4 it's crazy!" (The real quote has already been posted on this thread)

But I was talking about the books, if you care to know.

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 3:16 am

Yes, and if you all read those editorials like I suggested you will see how.

One of the many interesting things about Harry's developing feelings is how lying to Hermione is steadily becoming harder and more painful for him to do. Notice that in book 3, Harry could lie to Hermione without it affecting him at all. In book 4, when lying to Hermione about the egg, Harry always felt a deep sense of guilt. In book 5, when Harry's lying to Hermione about Occlumency, he can't even meet her eye anymore. And yet, Harry is still perfectly okay with lying to Ron about all these things.

I see your point. That may also have to do with Ron's and Hermione's personalities, though. Ron doesn't take things so seriously, while Hermione might get upset if she found out Harry had lied to her.

rupertfan123

December 30th, 2004, 3:16 am

Rupert Grint already said something about it, "In movie 2 there was a little bit of interaction with Ron and Hermione, in 3 there's a bit more, and in 4 it's crazy!" (The real quote has already been posted on this thread)

That will be a fun movie to see!

green_ginevra

December 30th, 2004, 3:17 am

What? When did JK say that Harry's romantic interest was in all the books so far?
The quote said that Harry's future LI is someone who has been in the books since PS/SS. BUT--that quote is supposedly fake. At least...that's what I heard about it.

rupertfan123

December 30th, 2004, 3:18 am

Yes, and if you all read those editorials like I suggested you will see how.

One of the many interesting things about Harry's developing feelings is how lying to Hermione is steadily becoming harder and more painful for him to do. Notice that in book 3, Harry could lie to Hermione without it affecting him at all. In book 4, when lying to Hermione about the egg, Harry always felt a deep sense of guilt. In book 5, when Harry's lying to Hermione about Occlumency, he can't even meet her eye anymore. And yet, Harry is still perfectly okay with lying to Ron about all these things.

That's because he knows Hermione will get on his case if she finds out he's been lying to her.I would be afraid to lie to Hermione too!

Tzigone

December 30th, 2004, 3:18 am

JKR quotes regarding Harry and romance in general for him, copied and pasted from mugglenet. If this is inappropriate, let me know

polly weasley: Will Harry fall for another girl in book six, or will he be too busy for romance?
JK Rowling replies -> He'll be busy, but what's life without a little romance?

Adele: Thanks for the interview! So... will Harry be receiving a second kiss in his last two years at Hogwarts? ;)
JK Rowling replies -> He might well be receiving another kiss (or two) but I'm not saying who the kisser's going to be...

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 3:19 am

They like each other in the movies yes,but they also like each other in the books.

It's undeniable that Ron has feelings for Hermione, but relationships are about mutual affections. What evidence is there in the books that Hermione is returning Ron's feelings?

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 3:19 am

She said he won't ever get back with Cho, but that in book 6, he will have a 'little romance'.

(Curses, Miss ERB, I was typing while you were posting. :evil: )

That should be interesting. :) Though I have to point something out. Remember when Cho and Harry kissed, then Hermione guessed that they kissed? I don't know about you, but it seemed to me that she wasn't very bothered by that fact. Though she may just be very good at hiding her feelings.

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 3:21 am

That's because he knows Hermione will get on his case if she finds out he's been lying to her.I would be afraid to lie to Hermione too!

Afraid? Since when has Harry ever been afraid of anything?

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 3:21 am

Miss ERB

December 30th, 2004, 3:22 am

She said he won't ever get back with Cho, but that in book 6, he will have a 'little romance'.

(Curses, Miss ERB, I was typing while you were posting. :evil: )

*apologizes for being quicker than Kratos :cool:

Lol haha just kidding :p

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 3:24 am

That should be interesting. :) Though I have to point something out. Remember when Cho and Harry kissed, then Hermione guessed that they kissed? I don't know about you, but it seemed to me that she wasn't very bothered by that fact. Though she may just be very good at hiding her feelings.

Click on the second link I provided, scroll down a bit and you'll find the full explanation for that scene.

Tzigone

December 30th, 2004, 3:25 am

Okay, I looked elsewhere for the German quote. This is what I found.

Harry wird mit jemandem beenden, der in allen vier Büchern gewesen ist, obwohl es Hermione nicht sein wird.
A translation: "Harry will end up with somebody who was in all four books, although it will not be Hermione."

It was googled and could not be found anywhere but on a thread here and on the other thread I found it on. I'm told the German is very bad and that Hermione is called "Hermine" in the German books. General consensus is that it's fake. Anyone here knows otherwise, let me know.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 30th, 2004, 3:26 am

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 3:26 am

Click on the second link I provided, scroll down a bit and you'll find the full explanation for that scene.

Where's the link?

MPPMarauderGirl

December 30th, 2004, 3:27 am

courtly

December 30th, 2004, 3:28 am

who has been in all the books? ah yes Hermione.

Ginny has been in all the books as well. Along with Lavender, Parvati, Pansy, Padma, Draco, Seamus... :eyebrows:

We can't really use that quote for much of anything.

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 3:34 am

Okay, I looked elsewhere for the German quote. This is what I found.

It was googled and could not be found anywhere but on a thread here and on the other thread I found it on. I'm told the German is very bad and that Hermione is called "Hermine" in the German books. General consensus is that it's fake. Anyone here knows otherwise, let me know.

It's fake because JKR says on her site that she will not reveal any of the couples in the future books since it would ruin all the debating people like us are now doing. She's not said who Harry, Hermione, or Ron will or will not end up with. (Well, she did say that Hermione will never hook up with Draco, but that one's obvious.)

Where's the link?

This one (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-turambar.shtml) provides a great summary of the relationship developing throughout the novels, while this one (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-player01.shtml) focuses in very exact detail on all the main parts of book 5.

It's the second one you're looking for.

rupertfan123

December 30th, 2004, 3:35 am

It's undeniable that Ron has feelings for Hermione, but relationships are about mutual affections. What evidence is there in the books that Hermione is returning Ron's feelings?

Mwahahahaha!You HAD to ask me that,didn't you???

From Book Three
-"Malfoy's dad frightened the Committee into it," said Hermione, wiping her eyes. "You know what he's like. They're a bunch of doddery old fools, and they were scared. There'll be an appeal, though, there always is. Only I can't see any hope...Nothing will have changed."

"Yeah, it will," said Ron fiercely. "You won't have to do all the work alone this time, Hermione. I'll help."

"Oh, Ron!"

Hermione flung her arms around Ron's neck and broke down completely. Ron, looking quite terrified, patted her very awkwardly on the top of the head. Finally, Hermione drew away.

"Ron, I'm really, really sorry about Scabbers..." she sobbed.

"Oh-well-he was old," said ron, looking thouroughly relieved that she had let go of him. "And he was a bit useless. You never know, Mum and Dad might get me an owl now."

Here,she gives up fighting with Ron and instead cries on his shoulder.She also apologizes for what she did because Ron made her feel better.

From Book Three
-"Hermione, I don't know what's gotten into you lately!" said Ron, astounded. "First you hit Malfoy, then you walk out on Professor Trelawney-"

Hermione looked rather flattered

She looked flattered because Ron had complimented her.It wasn't even exactly what you would call a compliment,and she was flattered.It doesn't say "Hermione looke rather flattered" when Harry said she wasn't ugly in the fifth book,does it? No!

From Book Four
-(Hermione and Harry's talk after Harry and Ron's argument) "Look," said Hermione patiently. "It's always you who gets all the attention, you know it is. I know it's not your fault," she added quickly, seeing Harry open his mouth furiously. I know you don't ask for it...but-well-you know, Ron's got all those brothers to compete against at home, and you're his best friend, and you're really famous- he's always shunted to one side whenever people see you, and he puts up with it, and he never mentions it, but I suppose this is just one time too many...."

Here,she is sticking up for Ron.Does she ever stick up for Harry while talking to Ron in this situation?Once again,no.

From Book Four
Fleur swooped down on him (Ron), too, and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious.

Why do you think she looked furious?

From Book Four
"Don't be stupid," Hermione snapped, starting to pound up he beetles again. "No, it's just ... how did she know Viktor asked me to visit him over the summer?"
Hermione blushed scarlet as she said this, and determinedly avoided Ron's eyes.
"What?" said Ron, dropping his pestle with a loud clunk.
"He asked me right after he'd pulled me out of the lake," Hermione muttered. "After he'd got rid of his shark's head. Madam Pomfrey gave us both blankets and then he sort of pulled me away from the judges so they wouldn't hear, and he said, if I wasn't dojng anything over the summer, would I like to-"
"And what did you say?" said Ron, who had picked up his pestle and was grinding it on the desk, a good six inches from his bowl, because he was looking at Hermione.
"And he did say he'd never felt the same way about anyone else," Hermione went on, going so red now that Harry could almost feel the heat coming from her, "but how could Rita Skeeter have heard him? She wasn't there ... or was she? Maybe she has got an Invisibility Cloak, maybe she sneaked into the grounds to watch the second task ..."
"And what did you say?" Ron repeated, pounding his pestle down so hard that it dented the desk.
"Well, I was too busy seeing whether you and Harry were OK to-"

Here she's afraid that Ron will get the impression that she and Vicky are 'going together'.

From Book Five
"What do you think about this?" Hermione demanded of Ron, and Harry was reminded irresistibly of Mrs Weasley appealing to her husband during Harry's first dinner in Grimmauld Place.

I think this is a sign of symbolism and what's to come in the future books.

From Book Five
"Good luck, Ron," said Hermione, standing on tiptoe and kissing him on the cheek. "And you, Harry-"
Ron seemed to come to himself slightly as they walked back across the Great Hall. He touched the spot on his face where Hermione had kissed him, looking puzzled, as though he was not quite sure what had happened.
Don't think this is good evidence?

Hermione is concerned that Ron is so nervous that it will make him play poorly.She tries to cheer him up,and the only way she can think of is "Give him a kiss!You know how long you've waited!Here's you're chance!"

I think that that answers your question!

Cat Animagus

December 30th, 2004, 3:35 am

It's fake because JKR says on her site that she will not reveal any of the couples in the future books since it would ruin all the debating people like us are now doing. She's not said who Harry, Hermione, or Ron will or will not end up with. (Well, she did say that Hermione will never hook up with Draco, but that one's obvious.)

This one (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-turambar.shtml) provides a great summary of the relationship developing throughout the novels, while this one (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-player01.shtml) focuses in very exact detail on all the main parts of book 5.

It's the second one you're looking for.

Okay, thanks. :)

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 3:36 am

Q: Is there something going on with Ron and Hermione in the last half of GoF?
JKR: Yes, there is something 'going on' between Ron and Hermione. He just doesnt't realize it yet, typical boy.

Between means both ways. In order for Ron to have something 'going on' between him and Hermione, it'd have to be both ways.

Which, according to JKR, it is.

Yes, and I can tell you what I think is 'going on' between Ron and Hermione. Ron has feelings for Hermione and he is failing to realize that she has none for him.

IceKat55

December 30th, 2004, 3:38 am

Maybe the reason that the filmmakers didn't show any interactions between Harry and Hermione was because that JK hasn't given them any reason to but she might in the future. Harry and Hermione are as much of a possibility as ron and hermione are.
Except for the fact that Rowling says we should all already have the answer by now.

R/Hr - strong evidence in the books, Rowling supports in interviews, they are blatantly alluded to on-screen. Harry/Hermione? We're supposed to already know that there's a possibility of them maybe happening, sometime in the future? :huh:

Tzigone

December 30th, 2004, 3:38 am

That wouldn't be something going on "between" by my definition. This would be Ron failing to realize there wasn't something between them.

AvadaKedavra

December 30th, 2004, 3:38 am

Stic

Like every Heron you have first a Jo-quote in mind and only then start to analyze the scene.

You don't even need the quote. But the quote pretty much is the icing on the cake. And no, contrary to what you might think, I don't model the books to fit the quotes. It's ironic that you're having a go at me about using quotes when your "JKR is tricking us" hypothesis is somewhat weakened if we take the quotes out of the picture.

Anyway, I'm hoping my response to the "Ron-party" scene will be logical enough and make sense, unlike some of the trash that I've seen some of my shipmates chuck your way. *urgh*

The twins I believe have too much respect and admiration for Hermione to poison her with sleeping draught. Remember: Without her Ginny would have died in CoS. And even if Hermy had been drugged , shouldn't Ron-loving Hermione after she had woken up then try to compensate for the lack of attention she has given to Ron on that special night?
Shouldn't Hermione express how terribly sorry she is ?

I think it is *utter* rubbish that the twins spiked Hermione's drink, we don't even have any evidence pointing to it. I think this theory is as ridiculous as the "Draught of Peace" theory and the "Neville broke the Krum-figure" theory. Onto the main gist of your post...

The perfect moment to party with him, to give him lots of attention, to make any kind of move.

and

But what Hermione said was: "Woo, I can just get outta here without being rude!"
And Hermione then asks Harry to join her in something she's interested in: S.P.E.W.
And Hermione never even said goodnight to Ron....

You seem to fixate around this scene- perhaps a little too much. What you have to take into mind is that:

This is at the begining of OOTP. There haven't been any remotely "shippy" moments up to this moment, which is estimated to be in September/October. This is a full 9/10 months since the Yule Ball, since anything significant.

Now, JKR pretty much seems to revolve around the 'traditionalist' view on boys/girls- in so far that it is pretty much expected of the boy to be proactive, to do the asking, to do all the work and figuring out. This was heavily emphasised in GOF and quite a lot in OOTP, too. Moreover, JKR has this specific scene (Yule Ball) where she has Hermione put the ball *firmly* in Ron's court. Since then, what has he done? Nothing.

So why should Hermione still be jumping up and down in anticipation? She's tired (been knitting late last night), she's been really busy and the whole Yule Ball fiasco has become a part of the past. To Hermione, at this moment in time, the Yule Ball is now one of those Ron "things", firmly in the past.

Why should she still be thinking about it, waiting like a vulture for her opportunity to swoop and grab the prize? Why should she, especially when this boy can be really difficult and immature at times and has given her absolutely nothing else to work with in 9 months-when she's told him- in no uncertain terms, to do something about it? Why?

Interestingly, this has given me an insight into Ron's pysche- here's a preview :p:

He didn't see Hermione looking furious in GOF, and I dare say he was too intoxicated by Fleur to notice Hermione's scowl at the end of the book. He has no inkling whatsoever that Hermione likes him. He's still in the "HateKrum" phase, as we gather from his rude and immature behaviour when Hermione discusses what 'Viktor said' about Harry, when they are trying to form the DA, in October. But then Hermione kisses him in November. We see the reaction on his face. Then his moaning about Krum suddenly becomes much more articulated, more revealing. It seems that Ron is fully aware, or much more understanding that he dislikes Krum because of jealousy- he is "realizing it". Then it's perfume for Christmas.

But all of this is not good enough for Hermione:

"Oh, you're worse than Ron!"<snip>"No, you're not.."

You have to admit it makes PERFECT logical sense from the Yule Ball until the end of OOTP.

Signing out,

Avada

P.S

Mrs Bombadil! I. Worship. You. Can I pay for a double sex-change operation so that I can have your babies?

IceKat55

December 30th, 2004, 3:38 am

And, the reason that some people don't see the films as cannon is because the filmmakers are adding whatever elements they want into the movies and forming their own little 'side stories' based on what they think should happen. I do not recall any romantic 'stuff' going on between Ron and Hermione in books 1, 2 or 3. Yet, the movies are making it so that something is happening. It's controversial, and that's why the films shouldn't really be considered 'cannon'.
And they do all that with Rowling's blessing. :)

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 3:49 am

Mwahahahaha!You HAD to ask me that,didn't you???

Here,she gives up fighting with Ron and instead cries on his shoulder.She also apologizes for what she did because Ron made her feel better.

That could happen between any couple of friends. After all, friends are supposed to be there to help you and make you feel better when you're down in the dumps, right?

She looked flattered because Ron had complimented her.It wasn't even exactly what you would call a compliment,and she was flattered.It doesn't say "Hermione looke rather flattered" when Harry said she wasn't ugly in the fifth book,does it? No!

It was sort of a compliment, since Ron was saying she was speaking her mind lately and taking action. Plus, anybody will get flattered when they're complimented, no matter who they are or who did the complimenting.

Here,she is sticking up for Ron.Does she ever stick up for Harry while talking to Ron in this situation?Once again,no.

How can you say no? We never got to see what she said to Ron about Harry. For all we know, she tried to make both understand each other's viewpoints on the subject.

Why do you think she looked furious?

Fleur had just kissed Harry too, y'know. It could have been for that reason.

Here she's afraid that Ron will get the impression that she and Vicky are 'going together'.

She seemed embarrased and nothing more. In fact, if you think she didn't want anyone to think she was going with Krum, it could just have been for Harry's sake, who was listening to the conversation. :cool:

I think this is a sign of symbolism and what's to come in the future books.

Hermione is compared to Mrs. Weasely at various other points in the series that have nothing to do with Ron. It just means she's similar to Ron's mother.

[I]Hermione is concerned that Ron is so nervous that it will make him play poorly.She tries to cheer him up,and the only way she can think of is "Give him a kiss!You know how long you've waited!Here's you're chance!"

Girls do that often in such circumstances. A sister would do the same thing.

Tzigone

December 30th, 2004, 3:52 am

There is no proof that Hermione kissed Harry in that scene. It's supposition.

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 3:53 am

There is no proof that Hermione kissed Harry in that scene. It's supposition.

Yes, I realized that after I posted. It's been corrected.

Tzigone

December 30th, 2004, 3:55 am

Okay then. I just coudn't let it stand. It hadn't been changed when I posted.

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 3:56 am

And they do all that with Rowling's blessing. :)

Yes, just as George Lucas gives his blessing to novel writers and their works, and yet he has proven to be perfectly capable of changing their stories when he makes his movies.

mrs_bombadil

December 30th, 2004, 3:57 am

Mrs Bombadil! I. Worship. You. Can I pay for a double sex-change operation so that I can have your babies?

:blush:

Well, I have had 2 babies already (I hope I didn't wake them with my cackling) but...have they figured out the fertility aspect of gender reassignment???!!! And I missed the memo! :rotfl:

-----------------------------------------------------

The Garbage Man,

I'm afraid you are missing my point on the movie stuff. You are arguing, contrary to your shipmates (and to me actually) that the film-makers indeed DO have some idea of the future direction of the plot. What makes you think this?

Tzigone

December 30th, 2004, 3:58 am

George Lucas said flat-out that the novels were glorified fan fiction. Back before he made more movies, IIRC.

But George Lucas has nothing to do with JKr. She actually does have everything planned out. No matter what GL claims, I'll never believe he did.

Kratos

December 30th, 2004, 4:08 am

Except for the fact that Rowling says we should all already have the answer by now.

R/Hr - strong evidence in the books, Rowling supports in interviews, they are blatantly alluded to on-screen. Harry/Hermione? We're supposed to already know that there's a possibility of them maybe happening, sometime in the future? :huh:

Yes, we are. After reading those editorials, I was shocked at just how blatantly obvious the romance between Harry and Hermione really is.

George Lucas said flat-out that the novels were glorified fan fiction. Back before he made more movies, IIRC.

But George Lucas has nothing to do with JKr. She actually does have everything planned out. No matter what GL claims, I'll never believe he did.

That doesn't prove that Rowling isn't going to do things her own way instead of going with what the movies are setting up though....

The Leprechaun

December 30th, 2004, 4:20 am

Contra "One Great Trick" Re: Book Canon

I'm writing this against the overriding philosophy of many Harmonians - that is, that Ron's crush on Hermione is meant to distract us from Harry's growing bond with her; that R/H is simply too easy an answer to find from this masterful mystery writer. I would like to juxtapose this viewpoint with a common Harmonian criticism of Chocolate and Moonlight: that the girls in those couples are not well-developed enough to be believable. I'd like to advance the idea that R/H as a red herring *as described by Harmony* will not be believable to a reader who a) has read the books and is inclined to R/H; b) who has not read, heard, or seen the interviews; and c) who has not participated in the fandom. Not that it makes a difference, but there are many such readers.

The hardest part of writing a mystery is to make the ending surprising but believable. For this to happen there must be a balance between clues and confusion, and between an awareness of the mystery and an attention to the action of the plot. For example, the main mysteries of GOF involve the identity of the men (later, we find out, the man) who shot the Dark Mark into the sky and who put Harry's name into the Goblet of Fire. We are thrown piece after piece of strange, seemingly extraneous information: Winky had Harry's wand. Barty Crouch was on the Marauder's Map. Professor Moody was awake while somebody was stealing something from Snape's office. Snape accuses Harry of stealing boomslang. Barty Crouch Sr. turns up at Hogwarts. These are well-hidden enough that it's a struggle even to recognize what's a clue and what's not a clue. The ending of GOF is stunning in that the clues, when put together, form an almost ridiculously holistic picture. As a mystery, the book is remarkable.

One of the most remarkable features is the aforementioned confusion over what is a clue and what isn't. As the books are not primarily mystery books, there are parts which are notably meant to drive the plot forward and not to help solve the mystery. There are also red herrings; the entire character of Karkaroff is one, and the realization that Snape was a Death Eater is another.

What, then, makes this mystery one that we as readers can solve?

The most important element that enables us to perform this task is the overt mention of the mystery itself in the text. By Halloween we are certain that mystery is *a* focal point of the text. We are doused again and again in confusion and led astray in so many directions; yet we know that there is a question here with an answer. We know there is a question and an answer and all that is left is the assurance that we are able to solve the mystery. By making it perfectly clear that it is a mystery, JKR is telling us that enough clues will be provided and challenging us to use them well.

I will use a heuristic reader to demonstrate the contrast between this *mystery* and the shipping *debate.* This reader does not know what Harmony or Heron is. He does not know what fanart or fanfiction is. He does not know what "slash" and "het" mean. He read the books and was given an impression of R/H. Here is why this impression - why *book canon* - cannot be a red herring; here is why the red herring argument *must* be constrained to quotes from interviews.

Our reader does not know that this is a mystery. He expects interaction between boys and girls not to be clues, but to be created entirely for the purpose of driving the plot forward. And he is right. The shipping question was not created by JKR for the readers to answer. It was created by the readers, by the fandom. We are not actually trying to solve anything here; this is why the debate is often characterized by relatively inflammatory dialogue and a lack of compromise or camaraderie. We are not meant to examine this as a mystery. In doing so, we are imposing our own debates about the Potterverse on the books themselves.

I will caution my shipmates that this is not proof of the legitimacy of our interpretation of interview quotes. In fact, this is exactly where the distinction lies. JKR is familiar with the fandom; she has shown that she knows how we treat this issue, and has been intentionally vague - and yes, Stic, perhaps misleading - in interviews. In a sense, a lot of her answers address the fandom and not her general readership. This shipping "mystery" is an element of our treatment of the issue, not of its treatment by the books. A casual reader will not be solving a mystery, and there is no such thing as a red herring when you're not looking for clues. Therefore any attempt to dismiss *book evidence* as misdirection is ultimately bankrupt.

Back into hiding now.

Snuggles,
Oliver

Good essay, delemtri. I was this way until I read a The North Tower essay that said something about Harmony occuring. I was surprised that someone thought that, then when I saw that at least 130 people did I was even more blown away (no offense Harmony shippers, but I stopped believing in Harmony when Harry first took notice of Cho and was a Hr/Dr shipper until the Yule Brawl when I switched to Heron).

Hope he does,because hermione still thinks that he is "an insensitive wart with the emotional range of a tea spoon".

He has actually come a long way since the Post-Kiss scene.

You_Know_What

December 30th, 2004, 4:20 am

Not knowing Cho very well didn't stop Harry in the slightest.

We all saw how that worked out...

Ron and Hermione! duh! if you haven't noticed, you should open your eyes. its out there in the open, and some people haven't even seen it!

Since when has JKR been 'out in the open' about anything in her books?

mrs_bombadil

December 30th, 2004, 4:21 am

Here is the 3rd of 6 parts of this examination of the HP Movies—not so much the content as the quotes the film-makers have made about them, particularly the shippy aspects.

Part 1, the Introduction, is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1664536&postcount=1899). Part 2, Actor Quotes on Ships, is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1664951&postcount=1935) which you will need to refer to for this installment. I have gone back and assigned letters to each (whew—26 exactly ;) ) quote for reference in this write-up.

Again, I want to restate that I am not trying to say that pro-R/Hr movies = pro-R/Hr books necessarily (although others might and some of the arguments may have some merit). I am simply trying to show that they are indeed supposed to be pro-R/Hr so any debate about the movies can focus on why and possible reasons JKR has allowed this.

Here are some thoughts on the actor quotes.

MY PERSONAL REACTIONS

I noticed some things that may not be relevant but I was tickled enough to share anyway; pardon my self-indulgence.

Since I found so many clips, I watched these kids be themselves (or at least their PR selves) and have to admit they were pretty charming (although Emma’s perkiness was a little sugary for this sourpuss at times). Dan (DR) seems an interesting fellow; Emma (EW) is bright and lovely; and Rupert (RG) is much cooler than I thought he’d be. Their attitudes about the shippiness somewhat matched how I see their characters’ viewing it. DR seems philosophical and accepting. EW analyzes a lot of it (and seems to capture how herons see things fairly well, IMO—they don’t like that they like each other :lol: ). RG is just kind of clueless and trepidatious.

I find Emma and Rupert’s discomfort in some of the discussions to be so cute; filming this stuff is obviously awkward and they get stuck with stupid questions about whether they get crushes on each other. They (EW & RG) are each far more at ease answering the shippy questions during the one-on-ones. Dan obviously enjoys teasing them too. :eyebrows:

MEDIA RELATIONS

Obviously in looking at these quotes, you have to think about the marketing side of things (something I know a little about, but am by no means a guru or anything). Movie promotion is an incredible machine. While some of those interviews or appearances could have been at the request of the particular show or periodical, most were probably orchestrated by WB (Warner Brothers) to meet some aspect of their strategy (a big part for PoA, I think, was attracting teens--hence playing up any love stuff). They would have sent press packets/media kits to the outlet ahead of time outlining what they consider to be the “message” they were hoping to convey. The kids probably received some kind of coaching and/or image consultation. While I don’t think they became perfect little shills, there are definitely signs that each had certain “talking points” that they would consistently return to. It’s possible, but doubtful I think, that they were just spoon-fed their answers completely. The genesis of the talking points is not only to convey that “message” consistently, but also expeditiously; those press tours are relentless and mind-numbing. Chances are the advance press materials mentioned the “romance” and that’s one reason everybody asked about it.

Here are just a few additional comments about some aspects of the PR element:

--“Extra” is part of Warner Brothers and was given repeated access.
--You'll notice that a WB representative encouraged Rupert to respond back in 2002 during the press junket group interview with TLC.
--The ABC special was scripted for TV, and the HBO feature may have been as well (I’m referring to the cast statements here, not the narration which is obviously scripted in both instances).
--The series with Lizo from the BBC is interesting. He is somebody who has consistently been given access and not just by the film-makers; JKR has spoken with him several times (including the CoS DVD but more on that in a future part) too. The 3 interviews with DR, EW & RG seemed to have been held on the same day and there is definite repetition in the questions he asks – EW and RG are each asked about R/Hr “hotting up” and all 3 are asked if R/Hr are “suited” :evil: .
--Interviewers often “assumed” H/Hr or expressed confusion about it not happening and both Dan (in 2002 & 2004) and Emma (in 2004) have said they don’t think so (so these quotes are not only pro-R/Hr but also anti-H/Hr as well).

SEVERAL CONSISTENT “MESSAGES”

Now I’ll show how each of the three conveyed very consistent, yet basically unique, messages. Only in a couple of instances (things DR has suggested) have they been that way for both the CoS and PoA media blitzes. EW started out as guarded and giggly but for some reason became a fairly vocal proponent of R/Hr (at least giving it lip service in two interviews, K & R).

One thing that all of them either state explicitly or allude to is the fighting between Ron and Hermione being a “cover” for their real feelings, which they are not accepting of.

I will refer by letter to the quotes (linked earlier in this post) that match these themes.

Emma’s talking points

--Ron and Hermione have a classic “love/hate relationship” (E, I, J, K, O, U).
--And despite the arguing, have a “soft spot for each other deep down” (E, J, K, R, U, V).
--Because you always “tease the ones you like” (K, R).

There are two references to her believing that Ron and Hermione don’t like that they like each other (and that makes things even more tense), but it’s possible that the comment on the Australian DVD is simply a repeat of the statements she made for the HBO special.

Rupert’s talking points

--There were a lot of “awkward moments” filmed, including hugs and hand “holding” specifically (E, G, I, M, P, S, T).
--But they were “fun to do” (E, P, S, T, U).
--Even if he expressed a fair amount of anxiety about it (M, P, T and the “Kill me before I kiss Hermione joke”.)

Dan’s talking points

--There is “tension”, specifically described as “sexual” sometimes, “between R/Hr” (I, Q, T).
--That he finds comedic (I, L, Q).

There are also multiple references to there almost certainly being more of this love stuff to come between Ron and Hermione in the next/future movies.

Now, in addition to the movie promoters probably playing up any R/Hr shippiness, we can also glean from the quotes that this is not just what they may individually believe but also what they have been directed to do by the films’ creators. In these instances we have multiple references to Alfonso Cuaron’s interpretation of the R/Hr subplot (G, J, W)!

Which is a nice place to mention that my next installment is Part 4--Producer/Director Quotes on Ships.

HPEnthused

December 30th, 2004, 4:34 am

R/Hr - they are blatantly alluded to on-screen.

There's no oats here IceKat. Harry and Hermione practically held hands the entire second half of POA movie.

Since when has JKR been 'out in the open' about anything in her books?

I agree. If any of these relationships were "so out in the open" we wouldn't be here debating who's going to end up with whom.

The fact that Rowling is stringing us along and not letting on also leads to the beleif that there is more than meets the eye. And ultimately, the entire relationship thing could end up being nothing at all between any of them.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 30th, 2004, 6:14 am

By definition of between. It means going both ways. Sorry. Ron can't just like Hermione if something's going between them.

If JKR said that about Harmony you know you'd see it that way. Because that's the way it is.

shohra

December 30th, 2004, 6:43 am

Ginny had problems in COS. Because she was the baby of 7 kids. Percy is a g*it. Ron has problems with being poor.

So they aint a wonderfully well adjusted family. Molly cant face the fact her kids have grow up and wants to continue to treat them like babys. And Percy, Ron, George and Fred we all know had problems with having no money.

We all so know from Draco that the Weasleys are a joke in the wizarding world. Percy proves this in OOTP.

Its like the world we live in England. You have 7 kids and cant afford them then you get called names and stuff.
Are we to beleave that Hermione is mud blood who is not fit to touch Draco since thats what he says

phantomwitch

December 30th, 2004, 6:57 am

Ginny had problems in COS. Because she was the baby of 7 kids. Percy is a g*it. Ron has problems with being poor.

So they aint a wonderfully well adjusted family. Molly cant face the fact her kids have grow up and wants to continue to treat them like babys. And Percy, Ron, George and Fred we all know had problems with having no money.

We all so know from Draco that the Weasleys are a joke in the wizarding world. Percy proves this in OOTP.

Its like the world we live in England. You have 7 kids and cant afford them then you get called names and stuff.

Oh come off it daz, no family is perfect. They are a loving family, and they have issues just like the rest of Rowlings characters. It makes them more realistic, don't you agree?

Angua9

December 30th, 2004, 7:01 am

So, no. Anything you say won't make me change my mind. Ron would have to have a complete brain transplant to change enough to make him suitable for our beloved Hermione. He isn't up to scratch. I do prefer to see her end up alone than with him as a life partner to be completely honest
Wow -- that's a harsh assessment of our beloved Ron!

However, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. When I looked up the impressively long list of "textual cases of Ron’s insults to Hermione’s intelligence, values, opinions and work ethic" I found that you seem to have an incredibly hostile interpretation of basically everything Ron does or says. You listed as an "insult" any time Ron disagreed with Hermione in any way whatsoever, no matter how timidly or hesitantly. You listed him groaning, laughing, snorting, rolling his eyes, and looking as if he wanted to argue but refraining as insults. You listed things he said privately to Harry. You listed him teasing Hermione, and him reassuring her. You listed him insulting other characters (Tom Riddle, Percy, Viktor, and Crookshanks). You listed him being curious and asking questions as an insult! You even listed compliments as insults!

For instance:

PS/SS 157: Ron looked at his watch and then glared furiously at Hermione and Neville.

"If either of you gets us caught, I'll never rest until I've learned the Curse of the Bogies Quirrell told us about, and used it on you."

Is Ron insulting Hermione's intelligence there? Her values? Her opinion or work ethic? Please explain how.

And this:

PS/SS 276: "I think we'll be able to pull the door open," said Ron, peering over the dog's back. "Want to go first, Hermione?"

"No, I don't!"

"All right." Ron gritted his teeth and stepped carefully over the dog's legs...

HOW is that an insult in any way, shape or form?

And, wow, isn't he even allowed to defend himself?

CoS 89: "Well, I don't know what you expected, Ron, but you--"

"Don't tell me I deserved it," snapped Ron.

How is Ron *insulting* Hermione there? He's stopping her from insulting him.

And this is a question, not an insult:

CoS 95: "*Why* have you outlined all Lockhart's lessons in little hearts?"

So is this:

PoA 98: "I mean, I know you're good, Hermione, but no one's *that* good. How're you supposed to be in three classes at once?" (By the way, not only is that not an insult, it's a compliment)

And these:

PoA 129: "How did you do that? and "Why are you carrying all these around with you?"

And this:

GoF 404: Hermione -- who are you going to the ball with?"

Seriously, how could you possibly interpret that one as an *insult*? And this one???

GoF 411: "What, you need three hours?"

Simply disagreeing with someone about an issue is not an insult, yet you listed many examples of Ron doing nothing worse:

CoS 130: "Why would anyone want to celebrate the day they died? Sounds dead depressing to me...."

CoS 160: Oh, come one, no teacher's going to fall for that. They'd have to be really thick..."

CoS 174: How can you stick up for Lockhart now, Hermione, eh? If Harry had wanted deboning he would have asked.

CoS 227: "If I'd sprouted whiskers, I'd take a break from work."

CoS 250: "How many monsters d'you think this place can hold?"

PoA 198: "Are you mad? Hand in something that good? ("Are you mad?" is a figure of speech here, not an insult.)

PoA 250: "See, Hermione? There wasn't anything wrong with it!"

PoA 433: "Yes, but he hadn't jinxed it, had he?"

GoF 139: "Well, she's not."

I mean, some of these just made my jaw drop. In what universe is failing to obey an order considered an insult?!

OotP 253: "I -- what?" said Ron, plainly playing for time. "No -- come on, Hermione -- we can't tell them off for giving out sweets...."

Or asking for sympathy?

OotP 679: "Who cares?" said Ron irritably. "Montague shouldn't have tried to take all those points from Gryffindor, should he? If you want to worry about anyone, Hermione, worry about me!"

Or trying to cheer someone up?!

OotP 715: "Ah well," said Ron lazily, "that's only one mistake, isn't it, you'll still get --"

Or an expression of concern?

PoA 295: "You know what, Hermione? I reckon you're cracking up. You're trying to do too much."

Or a compliment, for goodness sake?!

PoA 326: "Hermione, I don't know what's gotten into you lately!" said Ron, astounded. "First you hit Malfoy, then you walk out on Professor Trelawney --"

I think when Hermione looks "rather flattered" it's pretty safe to assume that was NOT an insult. :p

And on these pages I'm going to have to ask you to tell me what the "insult" is, because I honestly can't find anything:

CoS 211
CoS 289
GoF 249
GoF 394
GoF 432
OotP 460
OotP 461

Nobody has made a similar list cause there are not a single instance of Harry attacking personally Hermione. I've checked out and the most we've got so far is his anger at at the end of the Centaur fight. He said "Very smart plan!" in a sarcastic voice. That is an attack to her plan but not to Hermione as a person. So, I think that Harry is a respectful person, even if he doesn't agree with Hermione's opinions, he would never hurt her on purpose. That is why I really like him so much. He is amazing.
Not only do you have an extremely hostile interpretation of all Ron's words and actions, you have an amazingly sympathetic one of Harry's. Incredibly, you can say there is "not a single instance" of Harry insulting Hermione when they are right there on the same page as the "insults" you have listed for Ron.

For instance:

CoS 57: "What are you doing Muggle Studies for?" said Ron, rolling his eyes at Harry. "You're Muggle-born! Your mum and dad are Muggles! You already know all about Muggles!"

"But it'll be fascinating to study them from the wizarding point of view," said Hermione earnestly.

"Are you planning to eat or sleep at all this year, Hermione?" asked Harry, while Ron sniggered. Hermione ignored them.[/i]

Both boys are equally "insulting" Hermione here (I'd call it teasing), but somehow -- amazingly -- you only see Ron doing it, but not Harry. How can you do that?

And this --

You say this is "an attack to her plan but not to Hermione as a person" showing that Harry is a "respectful person:"

OotP 759: "Smart plan," he spat at Hermione, keen to release some of his fury. "Really smart plan."

And yet you list this as an "insult to Hermione’s intelligence, values, opinions and work ethic" showing that Ron "bashes" Hermione:

CoS 214: When Hermione had bustled off to check on the Polyjuice Potion again, Ron turned to Harry with a doom-laden expression.

"Have you ever heard of a plan where so many things could go wrong?"

Can't you see how biased your thinking is against Ron and in favor of Harry? Harry's statement is much more of a personal attack than Ron's is, and yet you claimed the opposite.

Here's another example:

PS/SS 154: 'And what if I wave my wand and nothing happens?'

'Throw it away and punch him on the nose,' Ron suggested.

'Excuse me.'

They both looked up. It was Hermione Granger.

'Can't a person eat in peace in this place?' said Ron.

Hermione ignored him and spoke to Harry.

'I couldn't help overhearing what you and Malfoy were saying -'

'Bet you could,' Ron muttered.

'- and you mustn't go wandering around the school at night, think of the points you'll lose Gryffindor if you're caught, and you're bound to be. It's really very selfish of you.'

'And it's really none of your business,' said Harry.

'Goodbye,' said Ron.

I count three rude remarks from Ron and one from Harry. You listed this page as an example of Ron's terrible, horrible insults to Hermione, but, apparently, you failed to see the one from Harry, whom you say never does that to Hermione, right there on the very same page. That's a strong bias!

And this one just boggles my mind:

OotP 573: "You should write a book," Ron told Hermione as he cut up his potatoes, "translating mad things girls do so boys can understand them."

"Yeah," said Harry fervently...

WHAT? How can you list Ron saying something as an insult and not think Harry fervently agreeing with it is an insult? It's the exact same remark!

Finally, I’ll study a very important and maybe even definitive case. We see both approaches at handling Hermione in a sharp contrast. This happens after Harry tells both Ron and Hermione that he gave his triwizard earnings to Fred and George.

QUOTE:
Hermione said nothing at all for the rest of the lesson, but Harry had a shrewd suspicion that her self-restraint was bound to crack before long. [...] Harry interrupted her before she had even started:

“It’s no good nagging me, it’s done,” he said firmly. “Fred and George have got the gold –spent a good bit of it too, by the sounds of it – and I can’t get it back from them and I don’t want to. So save your breath, Hermione.”

“I wasn’t going to say anything about Fred and George!” she said in an injured voice. Ron snorted disbelievingly and Hermione threw him a very dirty look.

Priceless example of aggressive vs assertive behavior. While Harry firmly but gently tells her that it’s no good to nag him about this, to save her breath and explains the situation clearly, Ron simply snorts and refuses to make an approach. It’s a very aggressive behavior, because ridicule is something that will never open a bridge with the other person.
Yet who modeled that "assertive" handling of Hermione for Harry? RON, that's who.

As early as CoS, Ron was being "assertive":

CoS 84: "Skip the lecture and tell us the new password."

Ron prevented Hermione from obsessing about her exams in Book 1 (p. 263), and he's still doing it "firmly but gently" in Book 5:

OotP 712: "Hermione," said Ron sternly, "we've been through this before.... We're not going through every exam afterward, it's bad enough doing them once."

If you look through the books carefully, you will actually find many more cases of Ron successfully handling Hermione this way than Harry doing it. But I'm afraid your pro-Harry, anti-Ron bias gets in the way of your seeing that. In fact you say "I see very little of that approach between Ron and Hermione." You're missing it!

For instance, you listed several examples in your List of Nasty Ron Insults of Ron changing Hermione's behavior by glaring at her (OotP 330 and 426, for instance) and yet you seem to approve of Harry doing the exact same thing (OotP 200 and 339). You obviously don't consider them insults when Harry does it, since you said there was not a single instance of Harry behaving in that nasty Ron-like manner. To me, that clearly shows your bias.

You have a perfect right to love Harry much more than you do Ron, and judge him sympathetically and Ron harshly. But it makes your arguments much less convincing for those of us who don't share your negative feelings about Ron (and JKR has made it clear that she doesn't, for one). It also makes you prone to what I believe are interpretation and factual errors such as the ones I have pointed out above.

And when it comes to statements like this...

I prefer 100 times Ron better to Ginny. He's got a full blown personality and character, that per se is admirable and great. He is very well done.

Ginny is too much of Mary Sue for me, my dislike of her is almost a visceral thing.
:sad: Ginny is one of JKR's self-proclaimed favorite characters! That doesn't mean you're required to like her, of course, but how can you put any confidence in your own predictions when your opinions and feelings about characters are so radically different from those of the person who is writing the book? How could you be expected to recognize clues (if any such exist) that Harry will eventually fall for Ginny when you viscerally dislike her? It would take an extraordinary effort on your part to overcome that.

As for me, if my instinctive tastes and preferences were so strikingly different from the author of the books, I wouldn't expect to be able to predict shipping outcomes correctly. I would definitely be preparing myself for disappointment.

Almost forgot to say this: Brilliant post, Delemtri! :tu: It really made me think.

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 7:15 am

who has been in all the books? ah yes Hermione.

So has Ginny...and at the end of the day Harry has more incommon with Ginny than with Hermione. Harry loves Hermione dearly - sure, but he does not want to date her.

And has JKR even said there will be a romance for Harry in HBP?

Yes she has.

canteurervan

December 30th, 2004, 7:19 am

I find it in vain to actually argue or convince people about R/Hr or H/Hr anymore than spending a couple of months waiting for the 6th book and hope for some more clues..., which I don't doubt will shed us some light on the issue.

However, I'm quite sure one fact though, that is Draco Malfoy can never be with Ginny Weasly as most people so desepeately want. I just don't understand how they could make such a pair. Draco Malfoy is a Malfoy and being a Malfoy can never in his lifetime to be associated with Mudbloods and Traitors even if he is at the prink of death... It's a lesson, a message of some kind to be conveyed from the books, which I have no doubt every reader will draw for themselves, if they ever consider it.

For me, I believe Rowling wants to emphasize the importance of childhood education. It's the starting step of humans to be shaped to think and act. Therefore, it gives us a message to be careful in educating young children because "one step is carried out wrongly could leap one's life a thousand miles away without return".

Some might think the contrary where Draco Malfoy might be returned to the good side as the message of Redemption or something like that. But, I don't think it will be the case in Rowling's books here.

***van.

FancySN

December 30th, 2004, 7:19 am

delemtri

December 30th, 2004, 7:39 am

You don't even need the quote. But the quote pretty much is the icing on the cake. And no, contrary to what you might think, I don't model the books to fit the quotes. It's ironic that you're having a go at me about using quotes when your "JKR is tricking us" hypothesis is somewhat weakened if we take the quotes out of the picture.

It's actually invalid without the interviews - it *cannot* apply to the books themselves. See my post (http://www.cosforums.com/showpost.php?p=1664054&postcount=1864) a few pages back.

Angua9

December 30th, 2004, 7:49 am

This is where we irrevocably part.
If Jo has intended H/Hr and a R/Hr diversion, doesn't it make perfect sense to try and support the mystery in her interviews? :tu:
NO! Absolutely not!!! That would be unsportsmanlike conduct of the most shocking description.

Jo can be as tricky as she wants in her books, but if she fails to fool us, it's just not on (as Ron would say) for her to use the interviews too. That's like changing the rules of the game because you're losing -- it's cheating! Every single clue and every single red herring must be in the books. The only thing an author can ethically do in an interview is to tell the truth, give fair and accurate hints, or refuse to give information. If JKR deliberately used her interviews to mislead us, she would be admitting that her books had failed to do so.

delemtri

December 30th, 2004, 7:51 am

This is where we irrevocably part.

NO! Absolutely not!!! That would be unsportsmanlike conduct of the most shocking description.

Jo can be as tricky as she wants in her books, but if she fails to fool us, it's just not on (as Ron would say) for her to use the interviews too. That's like changing the rules of the game because you're losing -- it's cheating! Every single clue and every single red herring must be in the books. The only thing an author can ethically do in an interview is to tell the truth, give fair and accurate hints, or refuse to give information. If JKR deliberately used her interviews to mislead us, she would be admitting that her books had failed to do so.

I might agree if we're taking the romance as a mystery arising from the books and not the fandom. I don't believe it should be taken that way. I think there can be no red herrings in the books - none at all - as the romance isn't presented as a mystery in the books.

phantomwitch

December 30th, 2004, 8:22 am

I think it's pretty obvious that Ron and Hermione have something going on.
I really don't think Harry is the romantic type. Look at the fiasco with Cho. If he had been a better romantic, I'm sure they couldn've been together. It was just a huge misunderstanding, all due to Harry's complete lack of understanding of girls' feelings.
This is what makes me believe that Harry can never be with any ordinary girl.
I'd say if ever, he'd end up with a girl that he's already aquainted with, and with whom no mixed signals can occur because they already know each other very well. SO I guess that'll be Hermione, Ginny, Luna...
But I really do think Hermione and Ron will have a thing, so I go with Ginny. Luna is a little...airy headed.

I would have to disagree with you about Luna. She isn't really airheaded; it's more as if she lives in a different world than the rest of the witches Harry knows. She believes in things others don't conceive to be possible, but that doesn't make her air headed. Air headed would be giggly and consumed by thougths of boys, not thoughts of the irrational. I prefer Harry and Hermione together myself; it was what I saw when I read the books before I discovered this forum, and it was rather a shock when I found out that ALL of the people I knew believed Ron and Hermione would be a couple.

This is where we irrevocably part.

NO! Absolutely not!!! That would be unsportsmanlike conduct of the most shocking description.

Jo can be as tricky as she wants in her books, but if she fails to fool us, it's just not on (as Ron would say) for her to use the interviews too. That's like changing the rules of the game because you're losing -- it's cheating! Every single clue and every single red herring must be in the books. The only thing an author can ethically do in an interview is to tell the truth, give fair and accurate hints, or refuse to give information. If JKR deliberately used her interviews to mislead us, she would be admitting that her books had failed to do so.

Actually, I believe there would be no fun in the interviews if she wasn't trying to be mysterious. We should have to find the truth in the books, and her telling us straight out what is happening is like reading the end of the book before you read the rest. This is all IMHO, of course.

Goodmorning, my fair sailors.(3:19 AM here) May the winds of fate be at your back, sailing you ship along! :p

Angua9

December 30th, 2004, 8:27 am

I might agree if we're taking the romance as a mystery arising from the books and not the fandom. I don't believe it should be taken that way. I think there can be no red herrings in the books - none at all - as the romance isn't presented as a mystery in the books.
You make an important point, Delemtri. We get sloppy sometimes and fail to make the crucial distinction between mysteries and unknown future events.

Mysteries have clues and red-herrings, and they are something the audience is supposed to be able to figure out if they're clever enough. They are normally clearly signalled to the audience by established mystery traditions ("whodunnit?"). A good example, as you said, is "who put Harry's name in the Goblet?"

Unknown future events might have foreshadowing, but they're something the audience normally can't figure out, no matter how clever they are, and the author definitely doesn't want us to. Plots are supposed to be unpredictable -- that's the whole point of reading. A good example of an unknown future event is "who will be the next DADA teacher?"

The "rules" for interview answers are very different for the two cases. It is perfectly okay for Jo to misleadingly suggest that Harry or Ron or Hermione might die, because that is an unknown future event, not a mystery. Those future events are supposed to be uncertain and unguessable, and authors try to keep them that way. But if Jo had misleadingly implied just before Book 4 that the Durmstrang headmaster would try to kill Harry, that would have been a "mystery crime." You just can't do that!

The problem, of course, is that we don't know for certain whether any romance in the HP novels is intended to be a mystery or not. Usually romantic pairings aren't mysteries, but sometimes they are -- as in the case of Frank Churchill and Jane Fairfax in Emma -- and we know JKR admires that book greatly. You argued very convincingly that they aren't; Harmonians generally believe that they are. The problem with their position is that if the romance is a mystery, JKR is obliged to abide by "fair mystery rules" and blatantly implying R/Hr as she did in the Couric interview if it's not going to happen would be a shocking breach.

However, if romances are in the category of unknown future events, JKR has more latitude in how she talks about them (good for H/Hr), but there are no "romantic red herrings" in the books (very bad for H/Hr).

Or, alternately, the romances might be character interpretation -- this is what I personally would class the question of R/Hr vs. H/Hr as -- which is something else again, and has different types of interview answers. I believe that JKR treats R/Hr as already-known character interpretation and H/? as unknown future event.

delemtri

December 30th, 2004, 8:35 am

You make an important point, Delemtri. We get sloppy sometimes and fail to make the crucial distinction between mysteries and unknown future events.

Mysteries have clues and red-herrings, and they are something the audience is supposed to be able to figure out if they're clever enough. They are normally clearly signalled to the audience by established mystery traditions ("whodunnit?"). A good example, as you said, is "who put Harry's name in the Goblet?"

Unknown future events might have foreshadowing, but they're something the audience normally can't figure out, no matter how clever they are, and the author definitely doesn't want us to. Plots are supposed to be unpredictable -- that's the whole point of reading. A good example of an unknown future event is "who will be the next DADA teacher?"

The "rules" for interview answers are very different for the two cases. It is perfectly okay for Jo to misleadingly suggest that Harry or Ron or Hermione might die, because that is an unknown future event, not a mystery. Those future events are supposed to be uncertain and unguessable, and authors try to keep them that way. But if Jo had misleadingly implied just before Book 4 that the Durmstrang headmaster would try to kill Harry, that would have been a "mystery crime." You just can't do that!

The problem, of course, is that we don't know for certain whether any romance in the HP novels is intended to be a mystery or not. Usually romantic pairings aren't mysteries, but sometimes they are -- as in the case of Frank Churchill and Jane Fairfax in Emma -- and we know JKR admires that book greatly. You argued very convincingly that they aren't; Harmonians generally believe that they are. The problem with their position is that if the romance is a mystery, JKR is obliged to abide by "fair mystery rules" and blatantly implying R/Hr as she did in the Couric interview if it's not going to happen would be a shocking breach.

However, if romances are in the category of unknown future events, JKR has more latitude in how she talks about them (good for H/Hr), but there will be no red herrings in the books (very bad for H/Hr).

Or, alternately, the romances might be character interpretation -- this is what I personally would class the question of R/Hr vs. H/Hr as -- which is something else again, and has different types of interview answers. I believe that JKR treats R/Hr as already-known character interpretation and H/? as unknown future event.

Well posted. I believe this is a very fair summary of what goes on in most literature. I think that the HP series, however, presents many complications regarding mysteries via its interaction with JKR; that is, she knows that certain things are mysteries to us and treats them as such outside of the books (DADA prof identity, HBP identity, shipping). However, I'm not expecting any clues and red herrings (ETA: in the beginning chapters of book VI) about the HBP before we learn who/what he/it is! This really helps to explain why I think quotes are canon - things are being written almost communally between the fandom and JKR in between, and the quotes are canon to this supplementary set of literature.

But I'm going off-topic! And I'm not supposed to be posting here!

The Leprechaun

December 30th, 2004, 8:35 am

Wow -- that's a harsh assessment of our beloved Ron!

However, I guess I shouldn't be surprised. When I looked up the impressively long list of "textual cases of Ron’s insults to Hermione’s intelligence, values, opinions and work ethic" I found that you seem to have an incredibly hostile interpretation of basically everything Ron does or says. You listed as an "insult" any time Ron disagreed with Hermione in any way whatsoever, no matter how timidly or hesitantly. You listed him groaning, laughing, snorting, rolling his eyes, and looking as if he wanted to argue but refraining as insults. You listed things he said privately to Harry. You listed him teasing Hermione, and him reassuring her. You listed him insulting other characters (Tom Riddle, Percy, Viktor, and Crookshanks). You listed him being curious and asking questions as an insult! You even listed compliments as insults!

Angua9, great post. This is one of things that bothers me about the ship Harmony. Some of them say that everything is about a deep understanding when it comes to Harry and Hermione's interactions, the problem is Harry and Hermione have had their share of battles. He didn't even like her before the troll in the bathroom. Yes, he wasn't as horrible as Ron, but he still wasn't nice and to add to that Ron was even remorseful about what he said after that fateful Charms class...

"So?" said Ron, but he looked a bit uncomfortable.

and a little later

Harry and Ron overheard Pavarti Patil telling her friend Lavender the Hermione was crying in the girls' bathroom and wanted to be left alone. Ron looked still more awkward at this, ....

Harry has been rude to Hermione before, just like Ron has. I admit Ron has been more rude to Hermione, but sometimes he has had the right idea others he was being very unfair. Same can be said about Harry and Hermione in some situations. Not one memberof the trio is free from the bonds of being unfair to each other, but the thing that keeps them from breaking apart is that deep down each of them cares for each other. Some Harmonians may like to believe that Hermione hangs out with Ron, because she likes Harry enough to tolerate Ron's occasional remarks, but as evidence from her laughing at his joke at the end of OotP, her feeling sorry for missing him playing his best, and her and him coming back from spending 5 days together in the infirmary with only each other as company; all I have to say is take off the shipping glasses and see that there is more than Harry as the glue that holds the trio together (though sometimes that is true). Hermione has pretty much tried to get Ron and Harry to stop fighting in GoF many times and Ron and Hermione have worked together to try to help Harry out many times in the series. I admit there is bickering, challenging, fighting, arguing, and disagreement between Ron and Hermione, why can't you admit that it is the same for Harry and Hermione. I admit that Harry and Hermione are best friends, but so are Ron and Hermione and there is no doubt that goes the same for Ron and Harry. It is odd how Harmony, a word synonymous with peace, is filled with some members who use hatred to disprove another ship, while bolstering their own ship. Heron doesn't need to do this to make Harmony seem less likely or to bolster thier own ship.

P.S.: This is not an attack on Harmony, but it is odd that many people on Harmony dislike Ron so much and use that dislike to prove their ship. I mean it's like me saying that I don't like militaries (which I don't) and using that as an argument to tout the demilitarization of the US. I understand it's purpose and understand that it has a few good points about it and I admit it would be unfair to ask for its destruction because I don't like it, but I still don't like it. The point is you can dislike something or someone, but try to keep your dislike out of your canon arguments.

gryffin_hauz_88

December 30th, 2004, 9:10 am

Harry has been rude to Hermione before, just like Ron has. I admit Ron has been more rude to Hermione, but sometimes he has had the right idea others he was being very unfair. Same can be said about Harry and Hermione in some situations. Not one memberof the trio is free from the bonds of being unfair to each other, but the thing that keeps them from breaking apart is that deep down each of them cares for each other. Some Harmonians may like to believe that Hermione hangs out with Ron, because she likes Harry enough to tolerate Ron's occasional remarks, but as evidence from her laughing at his joke at the end of OotP, her feeling sorry for missing him playing his best, and her and him coming back from spending 5 days together in the infirmary with only each other as company; all I have to say is take off the shipping glasses and see that there is more than Harry as the glue that holds the trio together (though sometimes that is true). Hermione has pretty much tried to get Ron and Harry to stop fighting in GoF many times and Ron and Hermione have worked together to try to help Harry out many times in the series. I admit there is bickering, challenging, fighting, arguing, and disagreement between Ron and Hermione, why can't you admit that it is the same for Harry and Hermione. I admit that Harry and Hermione are best friends, but so are Ron and Hermione and there is no doubt that goes the same for Ron and Harry. It is odd how Harmony, a word synonymous with peace, is filled with some members who use hatred to disprove another ship, while bolstering their own ship. Heron doesn't need to do this to make Harmony seem less likely or to bolster thier own ship.

P.S.: This is not an attack on Harmony, but it is odd that many people on Harmony dislike Ron so much and use that dislike to prove their ship. I mean it's like me saying that I don't like militaries (which I don't) and using that as an argument to tout the demilitarization of the US. I understand it's purpose and understand that it has a few good points about it and I admit it would be unfair to ask for its destruction because I don't like it, but I still don't like it. The point is you can dislike something or someone, but try to keep your dislike out of your canon arguments.

Well explained post, pal!

I agree in everything Leprechaun especially his P.S.
I also noticed that some of the supporters of Harmony dislikes Ron... but I think what are we discussing here is about the couple... Does it mean that if you're a Harmonian, you hate Ron? :sad:

Okay, guys, this is a discussion about who will fall in love with whom so I guess we should be calm and respect each others opinion...

I'm thinking what will happen to us supporters of different couples if Harry Potter series is over... I mean, we already found out who will end up to whom... I think, the intensity will be twice...

Peace guyz!!! :clap:

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 9:19 am

To repeat what I have said before:

I do believe that Harry finally will end up with Ginny, after all she is one of the few who can bring him out of his dark moods and they do share mutual interests (which Harry and Hermione or Harry and Luna does not). Besides this Harry really wants to belong to a family, and by eventually marrying Ginny he would belong to his favorite family. However I do not think that Ginny is the girl referred to when JKR says that Harry will have a little romance in the next book. I do believe that JKR by little means the size of the romance meaning that it will end before the book does. This romance may just help Harry to gain some more confidence about girls and give him some well needed experience. I do hope however that towards the end of the book we will see Harry and Ginny's romantic interest in each other growing, after all Harry's final romance is far to important to just leave to one single book.

As for Ron and Hermione, the question isn't weather or not they love each other romantically, but weather or not they are going to last as a couple to the end of book seven. I wish I believed they would, but I just think that would be to good to be true, and that JKR is going to find some way to split them up, possibly by killing one of them. And to those of you who says that she wouldn't or couldn't because that would be just to cruel - just remember she did kill Sirius :upset: I hope I'm wrong, I fear I'm not, somehow I always believed that Harry killing Voldemort will in some way be conected to a personal tragedy of his own...but who knows, I guess we'll have to wait and se.

rowansjet

December 30th, 2004, 9:20 am

I agree with Leprechaun, great post Angua9. Although I haven't seen Darynthe's original post, it does look entirely biased from all the quotes he listed.

Good use (and probably tiring :p) use of canon.

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 9:29 am

Filee

December 30th, 2004, 9:37 am

Harry and Ginny
Ron and Hermonie
Bill and Fleur
Neville and Luna (maybe)

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 9:41 am

Harry and Ginny
Ron and Hermonie
Bill and Fleur
Neville and Luna (maybe)
You can have your shipping opinions,but Neville/Luma can't happen.Jkr said so herself.

The Leprechaun

December 30th, 2004, 9:42 am

Does it mean that if you're a Harmonian, you hate Ron? :sad:

I hope that isn't what you thought I was implying. I was just saying that some hate Ron, nowhere near all (though on some level I think a decent number of them do).

daz

December 30th, 2004, 9:44 am

The Leprechaun

December 30th, 2004, 9:45 am

How can you say Darynthe's post is biased?

Because at the beginning of it he admitted hating Ron, which pretty much makes it hard for someone to be fair when it comes to analyzing something you hate in a psychological or sociological way. Which pretty much means his hatred for Ron, is going to blind him and therefore make him biased (no offence Darynthe, but hate blinds a lot more than you'd think).

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 9:46 am

Harry and Ginny
Ron and Hermonie
Bill and Fleur
Neville and Luna (maybe)

I wish you were right, unfortunatly as already stated JKR says no on the Neville/Luna ship :upset: But hey, lets hope for the others, and find one for Lupin as well. I considered Tonks, but with a 15 year age difference even I see the problem with that one :)

daz

December 30th, 2004, 9:48 am

It's undeniable that Ron has feelings for Hermione, but relationships are about mutual affections. What evidence is there in the books that Hermione is returning Ron's feelings?

Good post. I dont think there is anything in OOTP. There are more clues about Hermione likeing Harry in OOTP.

Ginny has been in all the books as well. Along with Lavender, Parvati, Pansy, Padma, Draco, Seamus... :eyebrows:

We can't really use that quote for much of anything.

We never really saw Ginny in POA or GOF. And she never actully have a converstation with Harry.

The Leprechaun

December 30th, 2004, 9:49 am

We never really saw Ginny in POA or GOF. And she never actully have a converstation with Harry.

We saw and that is what counts. :D

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 9:50 am

I hope that isn't what you thought I was implying. I was just saying that some hate Ron, nowhere near all (though on some level I think a decent number of them do).
When we argue the h/hr ship,we usually point out ron as being immature.That's why it is wrongly interpreted that we hate ron.

The Leprechaun

December 30th, 2004, 9:53 am

When we argue the h/hr ship,we usually point out ron as being immature.That's why it is wrongly interpreted that we hate ron.

Generally yes, that is a reasonable argument. But Darynthe pretty much said that he hated Ron (and possibly did say it), and that makes it much harder for Ron Bashers to effectively see a balanced viewpoint of Ron's character. Why? Because, one's disdain gets in the way of a fair review of Ron.

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 9:54 am

When we argue the h/hr ship,we usually point out ron as being immature.That's why it is wrongly interpreted that we hate ron.

People do mature you know - especially in their teens. And Hermione and Harry are hardly mature adults either. As I see it they all have some growing up to do, and when they do Ron and Hermione will stop their continous biggoring and realize that the only reason they bigger is because they are uncertain of what the other one feels and of their own emotions.

daz

December 30th, 2004, 9:56 am

All so we have gone 5 books and if JKR is keeping it secret that Hermione loves Harry. It makes no sense to have it in the films.

Then it would not be in the films till film 4 and 5 as it would ruin JKRS red herring.

So let the films have a hand holding moment. It can be explanned away. Very easely.

We saw and that is what counts. :D

What did we see. Im lost.

avbearcat85

December 30th, 2004, 9:58 am

The Leprechaun

December 30th, 2004, 10:01 am

What did we see. Im lost.

We saw the dazzling stars on the Riviera, and we were moved to fall into lo... oh, what we saw relating to the topic, we have seen Ginny in all five books and that is what counts.

i like the idea of R/Hr, G/N, and H/L. i'm a big fan of R/Hr. G/N also sounds as though it could turn into somthing if Neville ever gets any confidence. The reason i think H/L has some possibitlity is because at the end of OotP it says that Harry realizes that he feels sorry for Luna and that he doesn't mind talking about Sirius with her when he doesn't want to talk about it with his two best friends.

:welcome: to both the Love Thread and the HMS Heron (H/R).

daz

December 30th, 2004, 10:04 am

Yes but they never talked. Thats not good. And Harry forgot about Chamber. None of this is good for Choclate. Who would want a boyfriend that cant remember that you all most died.

The Leprechaun

December 30th, 2004, 10:08 am

Yes but they never talked. Thats not good. And Harry forgot about Chamber. None of this is good for Choclate. Who would want a boyfriend that cant remember that you all most died.

Well, he certainly was sorry for forgetting about the chamber.

Good night all and Happy Shipping.

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 10:11 am

i like the idea of R/Hr, G/N, and H/L. i'm a big fan of R/Hr. G/N also sounds as though it could turn into somthing if Neville ever gets any confidence. The reason i think H/L has some possibitlity is because at the end of OotP it says that Harry realizes that he feels sorry for Luna and that he doesn't mind talking about Sirius with her when he doesn't want to talk about it with his two best friends.

I agree that Harry can open up to Luna and that she may prove to be a valuable friend in the end, maybe even a girlfriend for a while, but as Harry's one and true love, his last, final romance - I just don't see it. They just don't have enough in common, Luna is not the type to be interested in sports or other things that Harry is into and I really don't see Harry sitting around the dinner table discussing the lates theories in her father's magazine...sorry but no! As for Neville and Ginny I think that ship has sailed, after all they did go to the Yule Ball together with the result of Ginny hooking up with another guy, and Neville hardly seemed to object, they were still friends after that...no just not enough tension there.

Harry/Ginny on the other hand do share mutual interest, she to is one of the persons that he can talk to when he does not feel like talking to Ron or Hermione and she has fansied him once befor - and as they say old loves die hard. Besides I think JKR would have let Ron drop the idea of the two of them dating by now if it was not going to happen, but Ron still keeps the thought very much alive, in fact he does not like any other guy she does date, no matter how nice he seems to be. No my bet is H/G and R/Hr.

daz

December 30th, 2004, 10:11 am

Well, he certainly was sorry for forgetting about the chamber.

:rotfl: :rotfl:

But he forgot. Thats how much he cares about Ginny. He was sorry but that does not take away the fact he cared so little about Ginny he forgot about it.

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 10:13 am

i like the idea of R/Hr, G/N, and H/L. i'm a big fan of R/Hr. G/N also sounds as though it could turn into somthing if Neville ever gets any confidence. The reason i think H/L has some possibitlity is because at the end of OotP it says that Harry realizes that he feels sorry for Luna and that he doesn't mind talking about Sirius with her when he doesn't want to talk about it with his two best friends.
That doesn't prove anything.I've said this before and I'm saying it again-At the end of OOTP harry has this chat with luna during which he pities her.Now pity isn't a good foundation for a romantic relationship.It's like hermione and neville.Hermione pities neville,but that doesn't mean they are wonderful as couple or hermione loves neville.And as for the not talking about sirius' death to his best friends,ron and hermione,it's not necessary that harry will talk about all of his problems with them.See you require a connection.It's like talking about automobiles with an automobile engineer,computers with a computer professional.Just because a computer professional is your best friend doesn't mean you talk about automobiles to him.Similarly harry can talk about being possessed with ginny.Get my point?:huh:

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 10:18 am

:rotfl: :rotfl:

But he forgot. Thats how much he cares about Ginny. He was sorry but that does not take away the fact he cared so little about Ginny he forgot about it.

He had a lot to think about, was in complete shock and disbelief, completely confused about everything he knew to be true and thought that his friends would never see him in the same light before...him forgetting about Ginny being possessed by Voldemort had nothing to do with not caring for her - after all he was the one to save her life in the first place.

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 10:28 am

That doesn't prove anything.I've said this before and I'm saying it again-At the end of OOTP harry has this chat with luna during which he pities her.Now pity isn't a good foundation for a romantic relationship.It's like hermione and neville.Hermione pities neville,but that doesn't mean they are wonderful as couple or hermione loves neville.And as for the not talking about sirius' death to his best friends,ron and hermione,it's not necessary that harry will talk about all of his problems with them.See you require a connection.It's like talking about automobiles with an automobile engineer,computers with a computer professional.Just because a computer professional is your best friend doesn't mean you talk about automobiles to him.Similarly harry can talk about being possessed with ginny.Get my point?:huh:
Moral of the story-Luna is just there to connect harry to the death thread.At the end of OOTP she says something like it's not the last she will see of her mother while talking about the veil with harry.She'll give him hope of seeing sirius again.I don't think she's there for harry's romance.

He had a lot to think about, was in complete shock and disbelief, completely confused about everything he knew to be true and thought that his friends would never see him in the same light before...him forgetting about Ginny being possessed by Voldemort had nothing to do with not caring for her - after all he was the one to save her life in the first place.
Yeah,but how come harry doesn't forget anything related to hermione?

lenina

December 30th, 2004, 10:29 am

Harry/Ginny on the other hand do share mutual interest, she to is one of the persons that he can talk to when he does not feel like talking to Ron or Hermione and she has fansied him once befor - and as they say old loves die hard. Besides I think JKR would have let Ron drop the idea of the two of them dating by now if it was not going to happen, but Ron still keeps the thought very much alive, in fact he does not like any other guy she does date, no matter how nice he seems to be. No my bet is H/G and R/Hr.

Which is Harry and Ginny`s mutual interest? Quidditch?

When has Harry talked to Ginny? Apart from telling her that he wanted to talk to Sirius... I think they have spoken three or four times in five years...

I would hardly call what Ginny felt for Harry "love". She didn`t know him...

Ron wants his sister with his best friend. Let`s think it is because he trust Harry and not because he didn`t like the idea of Harry being single...but.. What does it matter, what Ron wishes? What does that prove??

daz

December 30th, 2004, 10:37 am

I would hardly call what Ginny felt for Harry "love". She didn`t know him...

Very true. She is just another person who liked Harry because he was the boy who lived. When she was growing up she probley read books about him. And thought he was her knight in shining amour. All very much a fantasy.

FlyingPhoenix

December 30th, 2004, 10:39 am

A casual reader will not be solving a mystery, and there is no such thing as a red herring when you're not looking for clues. Therefore any attempt to dismiss *book evidence* as misdirection is ultimately bankrupt.

In the pass hours I had something else to worry about so I wasn't here to read your post. Anyway I agree and I disagree to your post about the "red-herring" if I had never talked to you I didn't even know someone did ship H/G or R/Hr or H/L for me were it a fact that H/Hr will happen. I didn't bother about why or how, I just did know. Also a lot of H/Hr shipper were still firmly thinking H/Hr will happen. This said a few ships are created by fandom and thats probably why JKR said flatly they won't happen.
However that the question was raised "Who will fall with whom" by fandom don't say that a "red-herring" won't happen in canon regarding romance. In my case as I did read "Emma" to me was Kinghsley and Emma from the beginning the final pair, there didn't exist a red-herring per se though I did recognise it, I did from my literature knowledge know it was mean to be a red-herring yet I wasn't fooled by it.
This means even if I never met R/Hr shipper also never asked myself will H/Hr or H/G or R/Hr happen still I did say that JKR could very well write a red-herrimg for romance.

I admit there is bickering, challenging, fighting, arguing, and disagreement between Ron and Hermione, why can't you admit that it is the same for Harry and Hermione. I admit that Harry and Hermione are best friends, but so are Ron and Hermione and there is no doubt that goes the same for Ron and Harry. It is odd how Harmony, a word synonymous with peace, is filled with some members who use hatred to disprove another ship, while bolstering their own ship. Heron doesn't need to do this to make Harmony seem less likely or to bolster thier own ship.

Let me be honest, if there didn't exist R/Hr shipper, I can promise you, you didn't find this on the HMS Harmony. Its a side track of this shipping war (and its a war a reason why I refuse to call this what we do on this thread as real debate) that we try to argue the dirty way. OBHWF supporter love to make Ginny out to be a better character, a Super!character so to say Harry is bound tto fall for her. Hermione is played down as nagging, terrible argumentable beast. So is Harry's desire to have a family used as proof for H/G though Harry don't want the Weasleys, because he already has them. You see OBHWF don't only play Hermione as main-character down, they play the importants of Harry's own parents down. Does a ship like that need this? Or is it just an re-argument against a usuall Harmony argument?

So is it in case of HMS Harmony and this supposed dislike of Ron and Ginny whats only a re-argument of OBHWF.

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 10:42 am

hermy_weasley2

December 30th, 2004, 10:47 am

Also I think if Jkr wanted to develop harry and ginny together She would have put ginny somewhere in Gof before the first task saying that she believed that harry din't put his name in the goblet of fire.She also could have given ginny a nice private chat with harry trying to cheer him up or help him for the tasks.However she din't.Wonder why?

Rhetorical question, but I'll answer anyway. JKR was still developing the whole Harry/Cho fiasco in GoF. If Ginny had been plopped down too erly in the middle of that picture, it wouldn't have had the same effect on the readers. As it was, of course, Ginny comes in just as that relationship fizzles and snatches the snitch right from under Cho's nose. ;)

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 10:47 am

Which is Harry and Ginny`s mutual interest? Quidditch?

When has Harry talked to Ginny? Apart from telling her that he wanted to talk to Sirius... I think they have spoken three or four times in five years...

I would hardly call what Ginny felt for Harry "love". She didn`t know him...

Ron wants his sister with his best friend. Let`s think it is because he trust Harry and not because he didn`t like the idea of Harry being single...but.. What does it matter, what Ron wishes? What does that prove??

True they have a lot of getting to know each other left if they are finally going to end up together and Ginny's romantic feelings towards Harry wasn't true love at that time. But I still think that her romanitc fantasies when she was a girl would make her more inclined to a positive response of any sign of interest from Harry's side. And as for the getting to know each other part, they are starting to talk more and more now when Ginny isn't a little girl anymore and I do believe that her turning in to a pretty young woman will hit Harry one day and that they by then also will have become closer as friends.

As for my point of Ron not letting go of the idea of his best friend and sister dating - I know very well that that is not prof. My only point was that JKR by letting Ron have this point of view is keeping the idea of Harry and Ginny vivid in our memories even as Ginny and Harry starts to date other persons. Maybe this means nothing, but then again it might mean something. In the end of the day the only one that would know this would be JKR herself and she is not telling is she.

OpheliaSometime

December 30th, 2004, 10:48 am

He had a lot to think about, was in complete shock and disbelief, completely confused about everything he knew to be true and thought that his friends would never see him in the same light before...him forgetting about Ginny being possessed by Voldemort had nothing to do with not caring for her - after all he was the one to save her life in the first place.
I agree with this assessment. If there's one thing that's true about Harry in OotP is that he was being a self-absorbed prat most of the time. Of course, he had his own problems to deal with. Just because he forgot about Ginny's possession doesn't mean he doesn't care about her. I don't think that can be implied.

Yeah,but how come harry doesn't forget anything related to hermione?
Well, Hermione is one of Harry's best friends. He's around her most of the time. While I ship H/G, I'm well aware that Ginny is not as close to Harry as Hermione is, but that's only logical, they've been best friends since first year. However, there is plenty of time for that to change. Besides, would you forget important events in your best friend's life?

Soulless Reaper

December 30th, 2004, 10:52 am

The first ship is pretty good.But what's si/re

I'm sorta a slash fan (though, barely) so I support Sirius/Remus. Hopefully that's not illegal or something... ^^ ;;

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 10:52 am

Well, Hermione is one of Harry's best friends. He's around her most of the time. While I ship H/G, I'm well aware that Ginny is not as close to Harry as Hermione is, but that's only logical, they've been best friends since first year. However, there is plenty of time for that to change. Besides, would you forget important events in your best friend's life?

I completely agree :tu:

daz

December 30th, 2004, 10:52 am

Rhetorical question, but I'll answer anyway. JKR was still developing the whole Harry/Cho fiasco in GoF. If Ginny had been plopped down too erly in the middle of that picture, it wouldn't have had the same effect on the readers. As it was, of course, Ginny comes in just as that relationship fizzles and snatches the snitch right from under Cho's nose. ;)

Yet JKR put Harry in the middle of Krums and Hermione relationship.

And she did it again with Cho and Harry. She stuck Hermione in the middle.

So if she wanted she could of brought Ginny into Harry and Chos relationship. But she did not. Why?

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 10:56 am

I'm sorta a slash fan (though, barely) so I support Sirius/Remus. Hopefully that's not illegal or something... ^^ ;;

Even disregarding all other problems with that idea, I think Sirius being dead would cause a fairly big problem in that relationship. Don't you think that Lupin deserves someone that is at least alive?

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 10:58 am

Rhetorical question, but I'll answer anyway. JKR was still developing the whole Harry/Cho fiasco in GoF. If Ginny had been plopped down too erly in the middle of that picture, it wouldn't have had the same effect on the readers. As it was, of course, Ginny comes in just as that relationship fizzles and snatches the snitch right from under Cho's nose. ;)
Jkr was developing the harry/cho fiasco,but the thing is what would have happened by jkr putting in a couple of ginny quotes here and there,or having ginny cheer harry up.It wouldn't have made a big difference.I mean jkr had hermione all the time with harry,so why not ginny?And as for the snatching the snitch right under the nose part,Do you honestly believe it can foreshadow a harry/ginny romance when harry breaking up with cho was due to hermione?Isn't it more like a hermione wins situation?

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 10:59 am

Yet JKR put Harry in the middle of Krums and Hermione relationship.

And she did it again with Cho and Harry. She stuck Hermione in the middle.

So if she wanted she could of brought Ginny into Harry and Cho. But she did not. Because its not important.

I do agree that Ginny isn't important to Harry - yet. I'm convinced that she will be! As for Hermione being in the middle of Harry and Cho and Harry being in the middle of Hermione and Krum, that just goes to show that they both need to be with someone that understands their relationship and knows that they are just friends and nothing more. Who better than Ron and Ginny being very much friends with the both of them.

hermy_weasley2

December 30th, 2004, 11:00 am

Yet JKR put Harry in the middle of Krums and Hermione relationship.
Harry Potter is the main character, and JKR had to do that so that we would know how serious Krum was/is about Hermione and how evil Rita Skeeter to get with her lies.

And she did it again with Cho and Harry. She stuck Hermione in the middle.

But that was when Harry/Cho was starting to sink, and no one really expected that to work out did they? And if Harry truly was "in love" with Hermione he would've realized that asking Cho to meet with her on a date would've caused problems.

OpheliaSometime

December 30th, 2004, 11:05 am

Jkr was developing the harry/cho fiasco,but the thing is what would have happened by jkr putting in a couple of ginny quotes here and there,or having ginny cheer harry up.It wouldn't have made a big difference.I mean jkr had hermione all the time with harry,so why not ginny?And as for the snatching the snitch right under the nose part,Do you honestly believe it can foreshadow a harry/ginny romance when harry breaking up with cho was due to hermione?Isn't it more like a hermione wins situation?
I could have sworn that Harry and Cho fizzled out because she chose to defend her traitor best friend. And she was weepy. It had nothing to do with Hermione.

As for Ginny's role in GoF, since the books are in Harry's POV, and he was too busy staring at Cho, of course he wouldn't notice Ginny alot. But she was there. And besides, why does JKR do anything in her books?? I would venture to say because she wants to.

daz

December 30th, 2004, 11:08 am

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 11:08 am

Harry Potter is the main character, and JKR had to do that so that we would know how serious Krum was/is about Hermione and how evil Rita Skeeter to get with her lies.

But that was when Harry/Cho was starting to sink, and no one really expected that to work out did they? And if Harry truly was "in love" with Hermione he would've realized that asking Cho to meet with her on a date would've caused problems.

Good point! And even if he had problems realising his feelings wouldn't he be bothered be the fact that Hermione went out with Krum? And would he have taken advantage of the situation where Krum asks about the two of them? He wouldn't even been forced to lie, it would probably been enough for him not to stress the friendship part as much as he did, or even better just look hurt and say he didn't want to talk about it. But no - he goes out of his way to ensure that Krum knows that their only friends and that he does not mind them dating. Now truly - could you really see Ron doing that?

hermy_weasley2

December 30th, 2004, 11:09 am

Do you honestly believe it can foreshadow a harry/ginny romance when harry breaking up with cho was due to hermione?

It was just a joke really.:shrug: But, hey, JKR writes the books not me, if she wants to be foreshadowing it can be.

daz

December 30th, 2004, 11:10 am

And Viktor is normal man. We know Cho had problems but Viktor did not.

hermy_weasley2

December 30th, 2004, 11:13 am

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 11:13 am

And Viktor is normal man. We know Cho had problems but Viktor did not.

Which is why he goes directly to Harry to talk things through while Cho just goes around making wild assumtions.

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 11:14 am

Im not saying Harry loves Hermione. What im saying is that if JKR could put Harry in the middle of Viktors and Hermiones relationship then she could of brought Ginny into the story in GOF. But she did not. And why does JKR reinforce the fact that Viktor and Cho both think there is more to Harry and Hermione than friendship. Once is ok but JKR does it twice. Why whats the point ? . We all ready know Viktor had a problem so why make Cho Jealous. We got the point. But JKR does it tiwce in 2 books.

That's true.But you're forgetting Mrs.Weasley.A woman who knows both harry and hermione really well,starts to believe that there is something more to their friendship
than meets the eye.She also turns remarkeably cold towards hermione at some point in GOF.So jkr doesn't make us see the point twice,but thrice.

daz

December 30th, 2004, 11:16 am

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 11:19 am

That's true.But you're forgetting Mrs.Weasley.A woman who knows both harry and hermione really well,starts to believe that there is something more to their friendship
than meets the eye.She also turns remarkeably cold towards hermione at some point in GOF.So jkr doesn't make us see the point twice,but thrice.

And every single time Harry and Hermione stress that they are just friends - nothing more. Why would they lie? If there were something there wouldn't they have gotten the clue by now and at least thought about it themselves? But nothing, they seem mostly annoyed. Besides, haven't any of you been the subject of suspicion just because you have a friend of the oppisite sex? Assumtions are often maid, and are also mostly wrong - at least in real life.

lenina

December 30th, 2004, 11:19 am

While I ship H/G, I'm well aware that Ginny is not as close to Harry as Hermione is, but that's only logical, they've been best friends since first year. However, there is plenty of time for that to change.

Do you honestly think that it is going to change?

I think that everyone is free to believe whatever they want but I cannot see Ginny being closer to Harry than Hermione.
I can`t.
I think it will never happen. We all know what Hermione (and Ron) mean to Harry, to the plot... Ginny can`t compare... And I honestly think that there is no time for that to change, because it will change the main characters, the relationship between them, the whole plot... There is no Harry without Ron and Hermione and with Ron nad Hermione, how can Ginny be closer??

Don`t know it that makes any sense... But it does in my head :huh:

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 11:21 am

Thank you i had forgotten that. :tu: So JKR is reinforceing the point time and time again.

The question is Why?

Ps. This is fun today. No nasty little comments. :tu:
Only jkr knows why.But really, after reinforcing the point time and time again,if jkr does end up writing r/hr it'll be hard to understand.

hermy_weasley2

December 30th, 2004, 11:21 am

That's true.But you're forgetting Mrs.Weasley.A woman who knows both harry and hermione really well,starts to believe that there is something more to their friendship
than meets the eye.She also turns remarkeably cold towards hermione at some point in GOF.So jkr doesn't make us see the point twice,but thrice.

And once again, Harry very willingly corrects Mrs. Weasley. Besides, Mrs. Wesley only got those ideas from Rita Skeeter's article and not from actually watching Harry and Hermione together. That incident was about exactly how far Rita Skeeter would go for a story/attention. It makes us hate her more as a character because she's telling lies about one of our favorite characters and Harry's best friend.

Edit: Of course, that's a generalization assuming that you hated Rita Skeeter and Hermione is one of your favorite characters. :whistle:

daz

December 30th, 2004, 11:22 am

And every single time Harry and Hermione stress that they are just friends - nothing more. Why would they lie? If there were something there wouldn't they have gotten the clue by now and at least thought about it themselves? But nothing, they seem mostly annoyed. Besides, haven't any of you been the subject of suspicion just because you have a friend of the oppisite sex? Assumtions are often maid, and are also mostly wrong - at least in real life.

Harry is not lieing. But whats Hermione to say im madly in love with Harry. :rotfl:

No she knows Harry is not there yet as he is dateing Cho.

OpheliaSometime

December 30th, 2004, 11:24 am

Thank you i had forgotten that. :tu: So JKR is reinforceing the point time and time again.

The question is Why?

Ps. This is fun today. No nasty little comments. :tu:

Well, both Victor and Mrs. Weasley assumed Harry and Hermione were dating because of things they had read in the paper and in magazines. I think the point of this in GoF was to show how much influence the articles of Rita Skeeter had in the wizarding community. Both Victor and Molly thought something was going on, and who wouldn't with the stories that were printed up about them.

With Cho in OotP, I think it's suppose to stress the point that Harry has absolutely no clue how to deal with a girl. She gets jealous and he doesn't know what to do about it. I think JKR was doing it show how utterly clueless Harry is at handling relationships. And also, what does Harry do when he realizes Cho is jealous of Hermione?? He laughs. Laughs! Because the idea of him liking Hermione is utterly ridiculous to him.

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 11:25 am

And every single time Harry and Hermione stress that they are just friends - nothing more. Why would they lie? If there were something there wouldn't they have gotten the clue by now and at least thought about it themselves? But nothing, they seem mostly annoyed. Besides, haven't any of you been the subject of suspicion just because you have a friend of the oppisite sex? Assumtions are often maid, and are also mostly wrong - at least in real life.
So what do you expect them to say?Do you honestly think that they are going to tell people they love each other even if they actually do?Of course not.They'll just keep denying it no matter how obvious it gets.

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 11:28 am

Do you honestly think that it is going to change?

I think that everyone is free to believe whatever they want but I cannot see Ginny being closer to Harry than Hermione.
I can`t.
I think it will never happen. We all know what Hermione (and Ron) mean to Harry, to the plot... Ginny can`t compare... And I honestly think that there is no time for that to change, because it will change the main characters, the relationship between them, the whole plot... There is no Harry without Ron and Hermione and with Ron nad Hermione, how can Ginny be closer??

Don`t know it that makes any sense... But it does in my head :huh:

Ginny growing closer to Harry wouldn't have to mean that Ron or Hermione would have to become less important to him - they all have important roles to play. But if we look at their characters we see very different people. Harry for instance is not very good to express his emotions and when he has a problem he secludes himself from others. Now Hermione is not letting him do that. Her solution to most things is to talk about them untill you find a logical solution, and while that is vital sometimes, it is not always what Harry needs. Sometimes all he needs is for someone to tell him that they know what he is going through and that they will be there for him - like Ginny does when he thinks he is possessed by Voldemort. There is no need for more. And somehow I can't picture Hermione just quietly being there when someone is hurting, she is far too protective and she wouldn't understand it. Ginny however possesses this ability which is one of the reasons why I think that she is more suited to be Harry's girlfriend than Hermione.

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 11:30 am

Well, both Victor and Mrs. Weasley assumed Harry and Hermione were dating because of things they had read in the paper and in magazines. I think the point of this in GoF was to show how much influence the articles of Rita Skeeter had in the wizarding community. Both Victor and Molly thought something was going on, and who wouldn't with the stories that were printed up about them.

With Cho in OotP, I think it's suppose to stress the point that Harry has absolutely no clue how to deal with a girl. She gets jealous and he doesn't know what to do about it. I think JKR was doing it show how utterly clueless Harry is at handling relationships. And also, what does Harry do when he realizes Cho is jealous of Hermione?? He laughs. Laughs! Because the idea of him liking Hermione is utterly ridiculous to him.

Viktor,believed h/hr not because of magazines or articles,but because hermione herself talks a lot about harry

hermy_weasley2

December 30th, 2004, 11:30 am

So what do you expect them to say?Do you honestly think that they are going to tell people they love each other even if they actually do?Of course not.They'll just keep denying it no matter how obvious it gets.

But why would they deny it? I mean, while Harry was dating Cho and while Hermione was dating Krum, there would've been plenty of oppurtunity and reason to tell the truth and get the person they wanted to themselves. But they didn't. They didn't even try to make themselves look better than Cho/Krum in each others' eyes.

OpheliaSometime

December 30th, 2004, 11:31 am

Do you honestly think that it is going to change?

I think that everyone is free to believe whatever they want but I cannot see Ginny being closer to Harry than Hermione.
I can`t.
I think it will never happen. We all know what Hermione (and Ron) mean to Harry, to the plot... Ginny can`t compare... And I honestly think that there is no time for that to change, because it will change the main characters, the relationship between them, the whole plot... There is no Harry without Ron and Hermione and with Ron nad Hermione, how can Ginny be closer??

Don`t know it that makes any sense... But it does in my head :huh:

But it's already started to change. In books 1-4, Harry barely notices Ginny. She's in them here and there when Harry sees her. But in OotP, here she basically explodes onto the scene. Keeping in mind that these books are written in Harry's POV, he's already noticing her more, talking to her more, hanging around with her more, sharing things with her more, and confiding in her more. No, he doesn't do it to the extent that he does with Ron or Hermione, but he does it waaaaaaaay more than he ever did in the previous four books. It's changing. And there are two more books that can take this even deeper and change the relationship between Harry and Ginny even further.

lenina

December 30th, 2004, 11:32 am

Good point! And even if he had problems realising his feelings wouldn't he be bothered be the fact that Hermione went out with Krum? And would he have taken advantage of the situation where Krum asks about the two of them? He wouldn't even been forced to lie, it would probably been enough for him not to stress the friendship part as much as he did, or even better just look hurt and say he didn't want to talk about it. But no - he goes out of his way to ensure that Krum knows that their only friends and that he does not mind them dating. Now truly - could you really see Ron doing that?

Harry doesn`t think about Hermione and Krum. Not once. We suppose he doesn`t mind because we Know HArry isn`t in love with Hermione. He says they are only friends because the are only friends. If he said I don`t want to talk about it he would be lying and we auld be asking why... That doesn`t make sense. HArry fancied Cho.
Ron fancied Hermione (we think) yo no, we couldn`t see him doing that. The difference is clear.

However, Harry just says that Hermione is his friend when he is asked. He never ever told Cho that. Never.
I don`t think that Rowling wants us seeing Harry analyzing his feelings towards Hermione yet. I think she is waitng for something that has a lot to do with Ron`s feelings...

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 11:37 am

With Cho in OotP, I think it's suppose to stress the point that Harry has absolutely no clue how to deal with a girl. She gets jealous and he doesn't know what to do about it. I think JKR was doing it show how utterly clueless Harry is at handling relationships. And also, what does Harry do when he realizes Cho is jealous of Hermione?? He laughs. Laughs! Because the idea of him liking Hermione is utterly ridiculous to him.

Very good point :tu:

However, Harry just says that Hermione is his friend when he is asked. He never ever told Cho that. Never.
I don`t think that Rowling wants us seeing Harry analyzing his feelings towards Hermione yet. I think she is waitng for something that has a lot to do with Ron`s feelings...

Because he doesn't understand that she is jealous of them, because he cannot understand it. When Hermione, who understands more of how a girl thinks, tells him so he tells her flat out that he doesn't fansy her, now why would he do that if he did? He could have just shut up after telling her he doesn't think she is ugly.

Drusilla

December 30th, 2004, 11:39 am

Just out of curiosity: why, when non-platonicity creeps into a friendship, does it have to be regarded as "something more"? It's something else for certain, but it's a veiled insult to deep friendships to suggest that things aren't as they should be until the two concerned members of the opposite sex fall in love.

That said, I agree with hermy_weasley2 about jealousy and tension being the indicators, not the foundations, for the slightly-other-than-platonic bond between Ron and Hermione. It's a good point to ponder for those who say that things can't happen between Ron and Hermione simply because they fight.

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 11:40 am

That said, I agree with hermy_weasley2 about jealousy and tension being the indicators, not the foundations, for the slightly-other-than-platonic bond between Ron and Hermione. It's a good point to ponder for those who say that things can't happen between Ron and Hermione simply because they fight.

Another exellent point :tu:

lenina

December 30th, 2004, 11:42 am

Ginny growing closer to Harry wouldn't have to mean that Ron or Hermione would have to become less important to him - they all have important roles to play. But if we look at their characters we see very different people. Harry for instance is not very good to express his emotions and when he has a problem he secludes himself from others. Now Hermione is not letting him do that. Her solution to most things is to talk about them untill you find a logical solution, and while that is vital sometimes, it is not always what Harry needs. Sometimes all he needs is for someone to tell him that they know what he is going through and that they will be there for him - like Ginny does when he thinks he is possessed by Voldemort. There is no need for more. And somehow I can't picture Hermione just quietly being there when someone is hurting, she is far too protective and she wouldn't understand it. Ginny however possesses this ability which is one of the reasons why I think that she is more suited to be Harry's girlfriend than Hermione.

Ginny didn`t help Harry telling him that she will be with him no matter what. She told him he couldn`t be possesed, because she had been, just the way she told him she knew how he could speak to Sirius. That is not understanding. She spoke to him when Hermione went to him, by the way...

And I didn`t mean Harry being closer to Ginny means that Hermione would become less important. I meant that Ginny being closer to Harry than Hermione means that Hermione would become less important than ginny, something I think cannot happen

OpheliaSometime

December 30th, 2004, 11:44 am

However, Harry just says that Hermione is his friend when he is asked. He never ever told Cho that. Never.
I don`t think that Rowling wants us seeing Harry analyzing his feelings towards Hermione yet. I think she is waitng for something that has a lot to do with Ron`s feelings...

I don't think Harry got the chance to tell Cho that she shouldn't be jealous of Hermione (the thought of which made him LAUGH) because she was so offended by the thought that he was laughing at her that she never let him finish. She jumped the gun, that Cho did. If she had stayed in her seat long enough, Harry would've told her that there was nothing going on with him and Hermione except the frienship that it so clearly is.

hermy_weasley2

December 30th, 2004, 11:44 am

I just remembered that JKR tells us what Harry's thinking most of the time. Hermione has been there since the first train ride to school, and the only time the way Harry thinks about her change is after he and Ron save her from the troll in the bathroom. Since then, they've all been friends and considering how long the series is, that's a long time to go without any indication in Harry's thought that he thinks about her differently.

Ginny on the other hand, has also been there since the first train ride to school. We don't see her at all during the Trio's first year, because se isn't at Hogwarts. Then, in the Trio's second year we see her much more because of the Chamber of Secrets. In the Trio's third year we see her but not much, because she's not really friends with Harry and she still has her school-girl crush on him. Then, in the Trio's fourth year, we see her a tiny bit more because she comes up at the Yule Ball. But in OoTP, she pops up everywhere. Harry even notices when he says something about her talking around/to ( I don't remembe which) him now. And he actually talks to her and interacts with her now, like on the OoTP train ride to school and the scene in the library with the Easter eggs.

The way he sees/spends time with Hermione hasn't changed, but it has with Ginny. That should say something.

Corbin Dallas

December 30th, 2004, 11:47 am

Yet JKR put Harry in the middle of Krums and Hermione relationship.

And she did it again with Cho and Harry. She stuck Hermione in the middle.

So if she wanted she could of brought Ginny into Harry and Chos relationship. But she did not. Why?
Jo put Hermione in the middle but not Ginny? Forgive my lack of text but you clearly missed a couple of things,
1.)First in the Hog's Head when it was decided the DA would form Cho suggested the "Defense association" but Ginny suggested "Dumbledore's Army" which the group liked, accepted and voted for,
2.)later when Harry finally found out about the Room of requirement, he set a date for the first DA meeting and Harry even mentions he was disappointed that Ginny told Cho about the meeting before he could,
3.)Later in the Library Ginny suggests that Harry talk to Cho to resolve their fight but as Harry says, it's sirius he wanted to talk to and
4.)the fact that Ginny caught the snitch from under Cho's nose so that gryffindor could win the Quidditch Cup...
Seems there are more instances where it is Ginny vs. Cho as oppossed to Hermione vs. Cho, wonder what this could foreshadow...
...

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 11:49 am

Ginny didn`t help Harry telling him that she will be with him no matter what. She told him he couldn`t be possesed, because she had been, just the way she told him she knew how he could speak to Sirius. That is not understanding. She spoke to him when Hermione went to him, by the way...

And I didn`t mean Harry being closer to Ginny means that Hermione would become less important. I meant that Ginny being closer to Harry than Hermione means that Hermione would become less important than ginny, something I think cannot happen

My point beeing exactly that Ginny didn't need to say much in order to turn Harry's mood, she just was there. Truely if you look at it can you really see Hermione quitetly sitting by when someone she cares for is in pain - No she would do everything in her power to solve the problem. This is a very good side of her, but not always what is needed. Sometimes you don't want your problems solved for you, it is enough to know that someone cares, maybe by saying nothing at all but just being there. I think Ginny is more that kind of person, mainly because I think that she is more emotions and less mind than Hermione.

Hermione is a perfect friend to Harry and he needs her, but she is not the perfect girlfriend to Harry - I just don't see it.

lenina

December 30th, 2004, 11:50 am

Very good point :tu:

Because he doesn't understand that she is jealous of them, because he cannot understand it. When Hermione, who understands more of how a girl thinks, tells him so he tells her flat out that he doesn't fansy her, now why would he do that if he did? He could have just shut up after telling her he doesn't think she is ugly.

I`m talking about later. He never tald Cho.

And I think that Harry tells Hermione he doesn`t fancy her because he doesn`t fancy her. What`s the point in this?? We all know what Harry feels...
He fancied Cho, not Hermione. The only thing I`m trying to say is that we ahve never seen Harry saying, "to me, Hermione is just a friend and she will always be just that" "I see her just a friend, even a sister" I" I would feel that way about her". We know Harry isn`t in love with Hermione.
I only say we will see him analyzing his feelings towards her later because we haven`t see him yet.

What he says to Krum or Mrs Weasley (We are friends) or tu Hermione (I fancy her) are jsut facts that we, as reders, know already.

snoopy_bombay

December 30th, 2004, 11:50 am

Drusilla

December 30th, 2004, 11:53 am

I agree, if anyone underwent a character makeover in Book 5 it was Ginny...apart, of course, from Harry himself. Still not much evidence for a ship, though, even if she has come into her own in a way no one would have believed was possible earlier.

That said, even if there isn't any evidence of feelings of the romantic kind on either side there, there is (as is the case with most ships in the fandom) the potential for them. And, speaking objectively, I have to say that there is much more potential for Harry to have a relationship with a girl like the one Ginny is now than with someone who was like the Ginny he met at King's Cross in his first year. It's all a matter of perception, and she's different in our eyes only because he notices it. That must mean something, right? Even if it only means he might respect her as a person in her own right, instead of just the youngest Weasley.

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 11:55 am

daz

December 30th, 2004, 11:57 am

We will see each uzzer again, i ope: said Fleur, as she reached him holding our her hand. I am oping to get a job ere, to improve my English

Its very good all ready; said Ron, in a strangled sort of voice. Fleur smailed at him and Hermone Scowled.

Now Harry was talking to Fleur for a sentance. So its only after he looks at Hermione that he sees the Scowl. He cant see Hermiones face before as he is watching Fleur come up the castle stairs. And then Fleur is talking to him.

Then we have the kiss at the end of the book. Harry noted Hermione had never kissed him before. And before we can get anymore of Harrys feelings of the kiss. JKR brings Fred and George into the converstation. So we dont know how Harry felte about the kiss.

Now GOF is meant to be the beginning of R/HR. Yet at the very end of the book Hermione kisses Harry for the very first time.

Now the beginning of books and the end of books are the most important. Because if the beginning is rubbish your stop reading it. And the end makes you want to read the next book. So it needs to keep you hanging. And we get the very first kiss of H/HR at the end of GOF. So we will remember this kiss because its at the end of the book.

So why is there no first kiss for R/HR. As this is the beginning of said Crush.

lenina

December 30th, 2004, 11:58 am

The way he sees/spends time with Hermione hasn't changed, but it has with Ginny. That should say something.

So you think that the time HArry spends with Hermione in OotP is the same that in gof? and in Gof that in Poa? and in Poa that in CoS? and in Cos that in PS? The things they share are the same?
Then why there is a theory about Rowling writting Ron out of the story??
I don`t know if you have studied the relationship between Harry and Hermione but I have. And believe me, it has changed. It is very much complex that the one between Harry and Ginny and so it is its evolution...

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 12:01 pm

Now Harry was talking to Fleur for a sentance. So its only after he looks at Hermione that he sees the Scowl. He cant see Hermiones face before as he is watching Fleur come up the castle stairs. And then Fleur is talking to him.

Then we have the kiss at the end of the book. Harry noted Hermione had never kissed him before. And before we can get anymore of Harrys feelings of the kiss. JKR brings Fred and George into the converstation. So we dont know how Harry felte about the kiss.

Now GOF is meant to be the beginning of R/HR. Yet at the very end of the book Hermione kisses Harry for the very first time.

Now the beginning of books and the end of books are the most important. Because if the beginning is rubbish your stop reading it. And the end makes you want to read the next book. So it needs to keep you hanging. And we get the very first kiss of H/HR at the end of GOF. So we will remember this kiss because its at the end of the book.

So why is there no first kiss for R/HR. As this is the beginning of said Crush.

But there is a kiss between Ron and Hermione in OotP and his reaction is far stronger than Harry's.

And for those who does not have the energy to read the whole essey that was my link the short version is:
Harry is Not Attracted to Hermione’s Looks (yes I know he doesn't think she is ugly, but that is hardly calling someone ms universe, and when she is being referred to as pretty other girls are being referred to as very pretty indeed or even stunning).
Hermione’s way of talking annoys Harry. (Her nagging and long speeches)
Harry responds to Hermione more as a mother than as a girlfriend. (read the essay for explanation on this one)
Harry and Hermione don’t have fun and laugh together (unless Ron is with them). (In my view one of the best and most important clues since laughter is essential to any lasting relationship)
Hermione is too rational and not tactful or intuitive enough to deal sensitively with Harry’s dark moods (again read the essay for details and explanations)

Now I love Hermione but she is not for Harry.

daz

December 30th, 2004, 12:06 pm

But there is a kiss between Ron and Hermione in OotP and his reaction is far stronger than Harry's.

That would because Ron likes Hermione. But Hermione all so Kisses Harry at the same time. So thats not good shipping for Herons.

Corbin Dallas

December 30th, 2004, 12:08 pm

Then we have the kiss at the end of the book. Harry noted Hermione had never kissed him before. And before we can get anymore of Harrys feelings of the kiss. JKR brings Fred and George into the converstation. So we dont know how Harry felte about the kiss.

Not true Daz, When Fleur swooped down on Harry and kissed him twice on each cheeck, he immediately is described as turning red and felt that he might have steem coming out of his ears and then Fleur turns to Ron,
Harry wasn't into Fleur at all but her kisses made him blush profusely...
Hermione's kiss only got a note that it has never happened before, if the kiss meant anything to Harry he would have had the same reaction he had to fleur, a girl we know Harry thinks is pretty because he says so in his description of her when we first meet Fleur.
See juxtaposition the two kisses Harry got from two girls that were contrated physically in Goblet and you see Harry isn't inot Hermione at all or her kiss would have garnered an immediate physical reaction that Harry can't control...
...

lenina

December 30th, 2004, 12:08 pm

My point beeing exactly that Ginny didn't need to say much in order to turn Harry's mood, she just was there. Truely if you look at it can you really see Hermione quitetly sitting by when someone she cares for is in pain - No she would do everything in her power to solve the problem. This is a very good side of her, but not always what is needed. Sometimes you don't want your problems solved for you, it is enough to know that someone cares, maybe by saying nothing at all but just being there. I think Ginny is more that kind of person, mainly because I think that she is more emotions and less mind than Hermione.

Hermione is a perfect friend to Harry and he needs her, but she is not the perfect girlfriend to Harry - I just don't see it.

I`m sorry but Harry didn`t feel better because Ginny was there.He felt better because he found a way to talk to Sirius and because he realised he wasn`t possessed. Not because he had Ginny by his side...
I don`t know how you know that Ginny would sit by someone side and be there for him, and I don`t know how you know she is more emotions and all that. That information is not in the books

hermy_weasley2

December 30th, 2004, 12:10 pm

So you think that the time HArry spends with Hermione in OotP is the same that in gof? and in Gof that in Poa? and in Poa that in CoS? and in Cos that in PS? The things they share are the same?

Yep. :agree:

Then why there is a theory about Rowling writting Ron out of the story??

I've never heard of that theory before, but I don't agree with it.

It is very much complex that the one between Harry and Ginny and so it is its evolution...

Harry and Hermione have a friendship, and it is complex. Long-term friendships are, and Harry's had a very complicate life, a lot of which he's shared with Hermione and Ron. That's enough to make anything complicated. but just because his relationship with Hermione is complex doesn't mean it changes over time and it doesn't mean it's going to become romantic in any way. I've never said Hermione isn't important to Harry. It's just that she's been important to Harry for a long time and Ginny's only just becoming more important.

I`m sorry but Harry didn`t feel better because Ginny was there.He felt better because he found a way to talk to Sirius and because he realised he wasn`t possessed. Not because he had Ginny by his side...

But Ginny was the one to help him wasn't she? Would she have done something like that in the last four books? Would she even have approached him like that? It just proves my point that Harry and Ginny are acting differently towards each other in the past.

Corbin Dallas

December 30th, 2004, 12:16 pm

That would because Ron likes Hermione. But Hermione all so Kisses Harry at the same time. So thats not good shipping for Herons.
Different circumstance, Emily Rose juxtaposed the Ron Kiss scene, the Pre-Quidditch match to the Scene in Goblet before the First task, Hermione kisses ron but when Harry is in the same situation, Hermione doesn't kiss him then. Hermione only does after Harry goes through the mosr frightening experience of his life and the prospect of returning to the dursley's, very different circumstances indeed...
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I`m sorry but Harry didn`t feel better because Ginny was there.He felt better because he found a way to talk to Sirius and because he realised he wasn`t possessed. Not because he had Ginny by his side...
I don`t know how you know that Ginny would sit by someone side and be there for him, and I don`t know how you know she is more emotions and all that. That information is not in the books
Ginny willingly talks about a traumatic event to Help Harry out,
Ginny seeks him out at Easter to give him his chocolate Egg then goes on to talk to him and Harry opens up to her when he did not with Hermione and Ginny for no other Reason than she cared about what Happens to Sirius too believed him and fought with Harry to go and Help sirius, since when doesn't Harry prize loyalty in his friendships? Something Ginny did nothing but demonstrate in the Order...
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daz

December 30th, 2004, 12:16 pm

Different circumstance, Emily Rose juxtaposed the Ron Kiss scene, the Pre-Quidditch match to the Scene in Goblet before the First task, Hermione kisses ron but when Harry is in the same situation, Hermione doesn't kiss him then. Hermione only does after Harry goes through the mosr frightening experience of his life and the prospect of returning to the dursley's, very different circumstances indeed...
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Here is a surprise i disagree.

In PS Harry all most died and there was no kiss from Hermione. COS Harry again all most died and again no kiss. There both set Sirius free and Harry all most gets his soul sucked out and again no kiss from Hermione. So something changed in GOF. I think Hermione is beginning to see how important Harry is to her and she kisses him.

lenina

December 30th, 2004, 12:18 pm

Not true Daz, When Fleur swooped down on Harry and kissed him twice on each cheeck, he immediately is described as turning red and felt that he might have steem coming out of his ears and then Fleur turns to Ron,
Harry wasn't into Fleur at all but her kisses made him blush profusely...
Hermione's kiss only got a note that it has never happened before, if the kiss meant anything to Harry he would have had the same reaction he had to fleur, a girl we know Harry thinks is pretty because he says so in his description of her when we first meet Fleur.
See juxtaposition the two kisses Harry got from two girls that were contrated physically in Goblet and you see Harry isn't inot Hermione at all or her kiss would have garnered an immediate physical reaction that Harry can't control...
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We don`t know what the kiss meant to Harry. That`s the point of being right at the end of the book.

Harry didn`t blush because he didn`t fancy Hermione. He was surprised because "she hadn`t done it before". That`s the thought in his head. "This is the first thing it has happened"

You can`t compare Fleur and Hemrione. Fleur was beautiful, was seventeen, was part veela, was the most wanted girl, and she kissed him... She also kissed Ron, Ron also blushed and I`m sure you think that Ron fancied Hermione in Gof... Blushing because of Fleur`s kiss is logic for two kinds of fourteen...

The point ot Hermione`s kiss wasn`t to make him blush. To me, it was iniciaite the physical contact that now is developping, nothing more. It doesn`t have any meaning. Not to Harry, not to Hermione.

daz

December 30th, 2004, 12:18 pm

When Fleur swooped down on Harry and kissed him twice on each cheeck, he immediately is described as turning red and felt that he might have steem coming out of his ears and then Fleur turns to Ron,
Harry wasn't into Fleur at all but her kisses made him blush profusely...

IMO. Hermione is jealous and kisses Harry at end of the book. She does not kiss Ron in GOF. No.

Corbin Dallas

December 30th, 2004, 12:19 pm

Here is a surprise i disagree.

In PS Harry all most died and there was no kiss from Hermione. COS Harry again all most died and again no kiss. There both set Sirius free and Harry all most gets his soul sucked out and again no kiss from Hermione. So something changed in GOF. I think Hermione is beginning to see how important Harry is to her and she kisses him.
Of course something changed Daz, Lord Voldemort came back just like everyperson in the Wizarding World feared and not too mention that hermione at 15 probably feels more comfortable with her friendship with Harry to kiss him because he has never shownher that he likes her like Ron did in Goblet...
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The point ot Hermione`s kiss wasn`t to make him blush. To me, it was iniciaite the physical contact that now is developping, nothing more. It doesn`t have any meaning. Not to Harry, not to Hermione.
and this is my point as well, niether Harry nor Hermione have any feelings of a romantic nature between the two, thus why there was no reaction from Harry at all, the fleur kiss just shows that if Harry thinks a girl is pretty and kisses him, he reacts and that's Harry's thought process, look at how he reacted to Cho's kiss, perpetual shock and he was into Cho, yet nothing with Hermione. THE point is that if there was something there, we would have read it, why there was nothing there to read, because there was nothing there, after all the romance aspect of the epic isn't the mystery of the series as Delemetri pointed out earlier...
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hermy_weasley2

December 30th, 2004, 12:24 pm

daz

December 30th, 2004, 12:27 pm

...
and this is my point as well, niether Harry nor Hermione have any feelings of a romantic nature between the two, thus why there was no reaction from Harry at all, the fleur kiss just shows that if Harry thinks a girl is pretty and kisses him, he reacts and that's Harry's thought process, look at how he reacted to Cho's kiss, perpetual shock and he was into Cho, yet nothing with Hermione. THE point is that if there was something there, we would have read it, why there was nothing there to read, because there was nothing there, after all the romance aspect of the epic isn't the mystery of the series as Delemetri pointed out earlier...
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OK so why is Ron the one doing all the chaseing in OOTP. Why are Hermiones feelings not clear.

And why can we read Ron like a book.

Corbin Dallas

December 30th, 2004, 12:29 pm

OK so why is Ron the one doing all the chaseing in OOTP. Why are Hermiones feelings not clear.

And why can we read Ron like a book.
Really, I thought it fairly obvious that Hermione likes Ron, frustrated but likes him none the less...
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daz

December 30th, 2004, 12:29 pm

Ron was bitten by a dragon and almost died in PS/SS with the chess board. There was no kiss then. Ron broke his leg in the Shrieking Shack scene in PoA. There was no kiss then. She did kiss him in OoTP under much less-stressful (couldn't think of a better word) circumstances,though. Couldn't the same thing be said for that?

The point is for a few Herons they see R/HR relationship starting in GOF.

But yet at the end of GOF we get Hermione kissing Harry. Not Ron. Why if this is the beginning of a great love affair.

And there is nothing in OOTP that makes me sit and up and think Hermione likes Ron.

Granted there are Ron moments. But no Hermione moments.

Drusilla

December 30th, 2004, 12:29 pm

Umm, guys...in PS/SS, they were ELEVEN YEARS OLD. You do not walk around kissing your best friends (male or female) between the ages of eleven and thirteen, it's almost a universal rule. It's a big deal at that age, what with the cooties and all. And Hermione still saves physical demonstrativeness (with Harry and Ron) for situations of extreme stress, if not near- death.

lenina

December 30th, 2004, 12:30 pm

Ginny willingly talks about a traumatic event to Help Harry out,
Ginny seeks him out at Easter to give him his chocolate Egg then goes on to talk to him and Harry opens up to her when he did not with Hermione and Ginny for no other Reason than she cared about what Happens to Sirius too believed him and fought with Harry to go and Help sirius, since when doesn't Harry prize loyalty in his friendships? Something Ginny did nothing but demonstrate in the Order...
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Harry doesn`t open up. He tells her he wants to talk to Sirius, nothin more.
She tells him how to do it. Something he has been already thinking about for a fortnight. He feels better because he knows thar fred and Georege will help him.
Ginny has no clue of what is the matter with Harry. Harry didn`t tell her how he feels, nothing of the kind, really.

I agree that Ginny is loyal. And I`m glad that you think That Harry values loyalty. Who knows? Maybe loyalty will have an influence in his decision when he chooses a girlfriend :rolleyes: :p

Drusilla

December 30th, 2004, 12:32 pm

Corbin Dallas

December 30th, 2004, 12:32 pm

The point is for a few Herons they see R/HR relationship starting in GOF.

But yet at the end of GOF we get Hermione kissing Harry. Not Ron. Why if this is the beginning of a great love affair.

And there is nothing in OOTP that makes me sit and up and think Hermione likes Ron.

Granted there are Ron moments. But no Hermione moments.
So then Hermione actually kissing Ron, standing up to Fred and George for Ron, being encouraged by Ron towards Quidditch and going skiing only because Ron thought it was amusing doesn't tell you that Hermione might feel a little for Ron, or that Jo says that there is something gonig on and there's tension between the two, and still you don't see it, or don't want to?

JessicaH

December 30th, 2004, 12:35 pm

OK so why is Ron the one doing all the chaseing in OOTP. Why are Hermiones feelings not clear.

And why can we read Ron like a book.

Ron is Harry's best friend, and a guy, he understands his feelings better than he understands Hermione's and the books are written from Harry's point of view, we no almost nothing of what is going on when Harry is not around.

Drusilla

December 30th, 2004, 12:36 pm

Hello, Corbin Dallas. Long time no see, happy holidays.

Good points you made there in favour of Ron and Hermione, but I'm afraid that a large chunk of the fandom won't accept it until Harry gets to see them snogging each other's faces off, and maybe not even then.

That said, romance isn't the only thing there is to this story. You lose out on a lot if you think that's the case.

daz

December 30th, 2004, 12:36 pm

So then Hermione actually kissing Ron, standing up to Fred and George for Ron, being encouraged by Ron towards Quidditch and going skiing only because Ron thought it was amusing doesn't tell you that Hermione might feel a little for Ron, or that Jo says that there is something gonig on and there's tension between the two, and still you don't see it, or don't want to?

Well Hermione was so happy about Ron and quidditch she feel asleep at his party. His party nothing to do with Harry. Rons 1 shining moment and Hermione is fast asleep.

And then when Harry says he is going up to bed Hermione cant wait to leave.

I mean wow thats a supporting Girlfriend. Or soon to be Girlfriend.....

Hermione than cancels her ski trip for Harry not Ron. Its all ways Harry first Ron second. And that is not going to help in a relationship.

lenina

December 30th, 2004, 12:38 pm

She's loyal all right, but I've never understood the Pumpkin Pie shippers who insist that Hermione's importance to Harry will diminish if he has a love interest- a serious one- who isn't Hermione. It didn't happen with Cho, I don't see it happening with anyone else either.

Is Cho closer to HArry thna Hermione? Will Ginny be closer to HArry than Hermione?
Did Harry care more about Cho than about Hermione? Will Harry care more about Ginny that about Hermione?
Would Harry have chosen Cho or Hermione? Will HArry choose Ginny and Hermione?

That`s the point. We already know that Hermione`s importance to Harry won`t disminish i he has a love interest- a serious one- who isn`t Hermione. That`s exactly the point...

Corbin Dallas

December 30th, 2004, 12:40 pm

Harry doesn`t open up. He tells her he wants to talk to Sirius, nothin more.
She tells him how to do it. Something he has been already thinking about for a fortnight. He feels better because he knows thar fred and Georege will help him.
Ginny has no clue of what is the matter with Harry. Harry didn`t tell her how he feels, nothing of the kind, really.

I agree that Ginny is loyal. And I`m glad that you think That Harry values loyalty. Who knows? Maybe loyalty will have an influence in his decision when he chooses a girlfriend :rolleyes: :pthe percieved lack of loyalty by Ron in Goblet hit harry hard as it it did in the beginning of Order where he thought Hermione and Ron could have told him more,
Ginny thinks enough to ask what was wrong, seeing that he was miserable and Harry was, and when she suggests to talk to Cho, as Hermione did too, Harry tells her what he wants, Ginny goes on to tell him that "anything's possible if you have enough nerve" , remember this-it will be imprtant of that I'm sure- and wow Fred and Groge help Harry because Ginnt had a word with them about him. Yeah she didn't do much, just put things in motion so Harry could talk to Sirius, nothing really important at all :rolleyes: , she just helped him get what he wanted. Oh and before Mdam Pince throws them out, Harry feels hopeful, might be the Chocolate their eating or the fact he could finally talk about what bugged him-s seems he couldn't with Ron and Hermione...
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