CoSForums Archive - Who Will fall in love with whom? v.42

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daphnee

December 31st, 2004, 12:34 am

hello, first post ! :D
IMO, ron and hermione is just too obvious ... they act exactly like arthur and molly!

isn't remus a little too old for tonks?

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 12:38 am

I think that Ron and Hermione have a future as more than friends. She may not show obvious signs that she is crushing him, but there are several subtle things. She treats Ron and Harry differently, she shows her friendships differently between both of them. IMHO, Ron has an obvious crush on Hermione. He was very upset about her and Victor, and he turned bright red after she kissed him on the cheek. But that is just my opinion. Another ship that i like is Remus and Tonks...does anyone else?

I agree. I dont get how people can say that their aren't any signs that Hermione doesnt like Ron. Because I do think they both like eachother. Not just Ron crushing on Hermione. The kiss on the cheek was non platonic in my opinion, they way she treats( maybe not always good) makes me think she has something for him. The whole jelousy of Fleur thing, the "next time" quote..she wants Ron to mature and shes waiting for him to show more signs of liking her...it'll happen. Their feelings are mutual and I dont understand how people dont see that.

hello, first post ! :D
IMO, ron and hermione is just too obvious ... they act exactly like arthur and molly!

isn't remus a little too old for tonks?

Yes Tonks is much too yoing for Lupin. Tonks is maybe in her early 20's Lupin is in his late 30's..I guess it could be worse but a tonks/lupin thing.. :huh: I wouldnt count on that happening.

daphnee

December 31st, 2004, 12:51 am

so who thinks ron will finally grow up in HBP, so he and hermione can finally get somewhere?

Oro

December 31st, 2004, 12:53 am

so who thinks ron will finally grow up in HBP, so he and hermione can finally get somewhere?

He will grow up, for sure. But I think Hermione is already in love with an other... :sad:

I like Ron, but I see Hr-->H in Ootp. Quite clear.

Firebolt2004

December 31st, 2004, 12:57 am

A clear H/ Hr ? Can you show us all the evidence?

HPEnthused

December 31st, 2004, 12:58 am

I like Ron, but I see Hr-->H in Ootp. Quite clear.

I love Ron, too, but I saw Harry/Hermione as well.

daphnee

December 31st, 2004, 12:58 am

yeah, there is a chance of hermione liking harry (admiration maybe?), but i really don't see harry showing any interest in hermione. if he does like her, i'm pretty sure we would know by now ...

Oro

December 31st, 2004, 1:00 am

A clear H/ Hr ? Can you show us all the evidence?

A clear "Hr loves H". IMO of course... Not saying for Harry, here I really don't no.

Evidence ? Mugglenet editorials are very good. ^^

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 1:03 am

He will grow up, for sure. But I think Hermione is already in love with an other... :sad:

I like Ron, but I see Hr-->H in Ootp. Quite clear.

Hermione is not in love with Harry..shes like Ron. Hermione and Harry are simply friends..where do you even get that she like Harry? Yes she does like Harry. As friends. Go to Mugglenet and read the Hr/R editorial its much more convincing than Hr/H ones.

Firebolt2004

December 31st, 2004, 1:05 am

A clear "Hr loves H". IMO of course... Not saying for Harry, here I really don't no.

Evidence ? Mugglenet editorials are very good. ^^

Hermione loves Harry as a close friend, why else would she help him in dealing with Cho. I did not see any signs of jealousy in her. The editorials are just a matter of one persons opinion, they haven't convinced me of H/Hr anymore than reading the books themselves.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 1:21 am

Well, it takes a near-death experience for Hermione to kiss Harry.

But she kisses Ron for good luck during a Quidditch match. Interesting?

As a 14 year old girl, I can kind of see where Hermione is coming from. She has two best friends, one she loves and one she doesn't (not romantically anyway). She is closer to Harry, right? Therefore she loves Harry, right?

Little insecure Hermione Granger, in love with the guy she's closest to?

At 14?

I think we sometimes tend to forget who Hermione is. This is not, "Hermione doesn't like Ron because she wouldn't stay up like anyone else who had a crush would!" No. This isn't at all like that. It's not about who does what. It's abotu Hermione loving her best friend and showing insecurities about him.

She acts differently with Ron and Harry. Closer to Harry. But why? Why not be closer to the guy she doesn't love? Why be so calm and collected with Harry, so to speak, and be all frittzy (probably not a word) with Ron when she loves Harry.

Tension is the sign of attraction. Without tension there is nothing. No romance, no attraction, no feelings.

He will grow up, for sure. But I think Hermione is already in love with an other... :sad:

I like Ron, but I see Hr-->H in Ootp. Quite clear.

I'd like some Hr---->H OotP clues I can analyze, if you don't mind.

daphnee

December 31st, 2004, 1:23 am

Well, it takes a near-death experience for Hermione to kiss Harry.

But she kisses Ron for good luck during a Quidditch match. Interesting?

As a 14 year old girl, I can kind of see where Hermione is coming from. She has two best friends, one she loves and one she doesn't (not romantically anyway). She is closer to Harry, right? Therefore she loves Harry, right?

Little insecure Hermione Granger, in love with the guy she's closest to?

At 14?

I think we sometimes tend to forget who Hermione is. This is not, "Hermione doesn't like Ron because she wouldn't stay up like anyone else who had a crush would!" No. This isn't at all like that. It's not about who does what. It's abotu Hermione loving her best friend and showing insecurities about him.

She acts differently with Ron and Harry. Closer to Harry. But why? Why not be closer to the guy she doesn't love? Why be so calm and collected with Harry, so to speak, and be all frittzy (probably not a word) with Ron when she loves Harry.

Tension is the sign of attraction. Without tension there is nothing. No romance, no attraction, no feelings.

I totally agree, we definitley tend to act more nervous around crushes. hermione is much more confident and calm around harry, whilst all her and ron do is bicker.

random, but i wonder what hermione and ron get up to when harry isn't around ...? :huh:

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 1:23 am

Tension is the sign of attraction. Without tension there is nothing. No romance, no attraction, no feelings.[/QUOTE]

*nods head* Yes Harry and Hermione have no tension. JK said so herself the tension is with Ron and Hermione. The reason Hermione is more patient and generally nicer to Harry is not because she loves him romantically. Its because they are friends who have no reason not to be close. With Ron and Hermione it's their is the insecurity, the sometimes doubtfulness that comes with it is the tension which is caused by the attraction.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 1:24 am

IMO, ron and hermione is just too obvious ... they act exactly like arthur and molly!

According to JKR, it should be obvious.

the_eminator

December 31st, 2004, 1:25 am

I agree with MPPMarauderGirl, there isnt anything without tension. Hermione doesnt seem the type that would act all giddy about a crush/falling in love. She seems the kind that would go about it in a mature nature, and not flaunt it around.

You_Know_What

December 31st, 2004, 1:25 am

Tension is the sign of attraction. Without tension there is nothing. No romance, no attraction, no feelings.

I think it's more of frustration/aggravation between Ron and Hermione, I guess I just don't buy the whole fighting because they love each other thing.

And in my opinion, the scene with the most tension between the kids was when Harry and Hermione were arguing about whether or not Sirius was in the DoM.

Just my thoughts...

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 1:26 am

According to JKR, it should be obvious.

Yes so obviously she wants it to be obvious. She wants the reader to know its there. Yes JK is a sneaky writer and suprises us with the unobvious, but that doesnt everything in the books has to be like that.

Angua9

December 31st, 2004, 1:26 am

Yeah,but how come harry doesn't forget anything related to hermione?
Because his talking homework planner reminds him! :rotfl:

You're not serious about saying this, are you? Because Harry forgets plenty of things related to Hermione in the books.

Hermione also forgets plenty of things related to Harry in OotP, including things about Cho twice, and that his Quidditch team had no Keeper or Captain. But the biggest thing she forgot is this:

'Well, it's like Hagrid said, they can look after themselves,' said Hermione impatiently, 'and I suppose a teacher like Grubbly-Plank wouldn't usually show them to us before NEWT level, but, well, they are very interesting, aren't they? The way some people can see them and some can't! I wish I could.'

'Do you?' Harry asked her quietly.

She looked suddenly horrorstruck.

'Oh, Harry - I'm sorry - no, of course I don't - that was a really stupid thing to say.'

I've never understood why Harry forgetting Ginny's possession from two-three years before is the death-knell to their possible relationship, but Hermione forgetting Harry's ordeal of approximately six months before is just fine and dandy. But then, I don't understand why forgetting something is a death-knell, anyway.

Errrr... *looks around worriedly* Have Ron and Hermione ever forgotten anything about each other? I can't remember any, myself.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 1:32 am

*nods head* Yes Harry and Hermione have no tension. JK said so herself the tension is with Ron and Hermione. The reason Hermione is more patient and generally nicer to Harry is not because she loves him romantically. Its because they are friends who have no reason not to be close. With Ron and Hermione it's their is the insecurity, the sometimes doubtfulness that comes with it is the tension which is caused by the attraction.

Exactly. And especially at 14, where this attraction started. Harry Potter and his friends are more old-fashioned and are not into the swing of dating at 14, much like the youth of now (in America at least).

I also see that Hermione is closer to Harry, because she is comfortable with Harry, because she has no reason to not be; nothing hidden underneath the label 'friendship'. Her and Ron and the tension with him-liking-her-and-her-waiting-for-him-to-mature-and-do-something-about-it-with-her-laying-down-subtle-hints-that-scream-HERMIONE LIKES RON!

:angel:

I think it's more of frustration/aggravation between Ron and Hermione, I guess I just don't buy the whole fighting because they love each other thing.

And in my opinion, the scene with the most tension between the kids was when Harry and Hermione were arguing about whether or not Sirius was in the DoM.

Just my thoughts...

One tension scene for Harry and Hermione doesn't make up for the supple amount JKR says Hermione and Ron have 'going on'.

Personally, I don't think they fight because they love each other. That's too juvenile. I think they fight because they have no way to express feelings toward each other. Both of them stuck on the platue between friendship and liking someone. They don't know if they are being too open with their feelings - if people notice them for what they are. And people do. It jumps out at you.

For me, the books along with the 'going on' is the sealer. You know, Harmonies, that if JKR said that about Harry/Hermione that you would think of it the same because that's how teens talk: "What's going on with you and Theo, Ren?" (People say.)

It's what it is. Sorry.

daphnee

December 31st, 2004, 1:34 am

And in my opinion, the scene with the most tension between the kids was when Harry and Hermione were arguing about whether or not Sirius was in the DoM.

Just my thoughts...

yeah, but that was a really serious matter. hermione and ron have tension between them all the time, like when they bicker over dumb little things that aren't particularly important.

Firebolt2004

December 31st, 2004, 1:36 am

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 1:36 am

Yes so obviously she wants it to be obvious. She wants the reader to know its there. Yes JK is a sneaky writer and suprises us with the unobvious, but that doesnt everything in the books has to like that.

Exactly. Romance is supposed to surprise the characters, not the readers. I'll be surprised and shocked if Hermione ended up with Harry.

People don't think JKR has time to write in Ginny or Luna, but she has time enough to change both Harry's and Hermione's outlooks on each other (and even if Hermione did like Harry, Harry would have to realize this, anyway). That amazes me.

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 1:45 am

Exactly. Romance is supposed to surprise the characters, not the readers. I'll be surprised and shocked if Hermione ended up with Harry.

People don't think JKR has time to write in Ginny or Luna, but she has time enough to change both Harry's and Hermione's outlooks on each other (and even if Hermione did like Harry, Harry would have to realize this, anyway). That amazes me.

I agree. Right now Harry and Hermione are completely non romantic. What would it take to suddenly change that when they've had so much build up over the books as friends. It's Ron and Hermione's relationship thats been buliding up romantically. Do you Harmonians really think that she can write a Hr/H relationship but yet not have the time to write a H/G relationship? At least H/G have something to build on.

the_eminator

December 31st, 2004, 1:52 am

I agree. Right now Harry and Hermione are completely non romantic. What would it take to suddenly change that when they've had so much build up over the books as friends. It's Ron and Hermione's relationship thats been buliding up romantically. Do you Harmonians really think that she can write a Hr/H relationship but yet not have the time to write a H/G relationship? At least H/G have something to build on.

Exactly, what do Hermione and Harry have that would bring them together into a relationship other than friendship. Harry and Ginny have the whole CoS that would bring them together.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 1:52 am

I agree. Right now Harry and Hermione are completely non romantic. What would it take to suddenly change that when they've had so much build up over the books as friends. It's Ron and Hermione's relationship thats been buliding up romantically. Do you Harmonians really think that she can write a Hr/H relationship but yet not have the time to write a H/G relationship? At least H/G have something to build on.

Agreed. Completely! :) Good to be a shipmate of yours!

DaNs_Girl89

December 31st, 2004, 1:54 am

ok lemme just say Hermione/Ron don't have much of a chance. Everyone already believes its gonna happen. I'm sure you all have good reasons too. But rons boring. Hermione needs adventure. Ron can't afford it. (NO offense) So lets just go with the unexplainable

awwww! The "Ron can't afford it." awwww... thats a bit mean :upset:
awwww, poor Ronnikins. Aw, lolz. I think that Ron and Hermione will end up together. Not only is it the most obvious thing in the world (Whether if you support Harry/Hermione, etc. You can't deny the awkwardness and tension in the movies. You've seen it with your own eyes, so you gotta admit there's something though..), but there's a lot of clues in GoF and I think OoTP too. Also, in the movies and in the books. And how JKR says that theres foreshadowing in the movies, I could have sworen she said it was the Ron/Hermione thing,.. but I think it's just so obvious for myself that I could have thought up that she said it somewhere. But, I doubt she will say it in an interview or something because.. it's like, not what she would do.

I support Ron/Hermione, and I used to support Harry/Hermione. I only use Draco/Hermione for when writting fanfiction, though. It's really interesting. The Draco/Hermione fics are sometimes the best because there's a good plot in it..

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 1:58 am

Agreed. Completely! :) Good to be a shipmate of yours!

Good for me to a shipmate of yours as well :tu:

Exactly, what do Hermione and Harry have that would bring them together into a relationship other than friendship. Harry and Ginny have the whole CoS that would bring them together.

Yes, but more than that. I also think, even though we dont too, too much about Ginny's personality( we do know a good amount though) I think her and Harry's personalities would work nicely together. In HBP I think they will grow closer and they'll see that.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 1:59 am

Why does it seem a lot of people that dislike Ron, ship Hermione and Harry together?

RonHermioneLOVE

December 31st, 2004, 2:02 am

Why does it seem a lot of people that dislike Ron, ship Hermione and Harry together?
Or is it that they dislike Ron because he is a threat to their ship, because deep down they know its going to be R/Hr but they don't want it...

Claudia

December 31st, 2004, 2:05 am

Errrr... *looks around worriedly* Have Ron and Hermione ever forgotten anything about each other? I can't remember any, myself.I don't think so, but I might be misremembering. Except of course, Ron constantly forgets that Hermione says that people cannot Apparate/Disapparate on Hogwarts grounds.

But this is the perfect excuse to toss in another of my "Probably Insignificant Things that Make Me Smile" items...
CoS, Ch.9 (The Writing on the Wall)
"I - don't - like - spiders," said Ron tensely.
"I never knew that," said Hermione, looking at Ron in surprise.
"You've used spiders in Potions loads of times...."
"I don't mind them dead," said Ron, who was carefully looking anywhere but at the window. "I just don't like the way they move...."
Hermione giggled.In this case I am fairly sure I am reading too much into this, but the Heron in me likes the idea that even though it's only the second year she's known him, Hermione is surprised that there is something about Ron she doesn't know.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 2:08 am

Good for me to a shipmate of yours as well :tu:

:)

Yes, but more than that. I also think, even though we dont too, too much about Ginny's personality( we do know a good amount though) I think her and Harry's personalities would work nicely together. In HBP I think they will grow closer and they'll see that.

Exactly. Now I may be off but this is what I think

Krum comes, Hermione and Ron confront their feelings, who's left for Harry when Ron and Hermione have run off? Ginny. They get talking, first about little things. They learn what's in common and they again have this sort of bond. I also think that someone has yet to be learned about Ginny from CoS (like previously mentioned). With something like Tom Riddle haunting her thoughts, she has to have something we will find out. Something Harry will find interesting.

I wouldn't be surprised if something that happened to Ginny (because of Tom Riddle) turns out to be the important bond between HBP and CoS. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's something that will greatly affect Harry.

Of course, I may be aiming a little too high. But with JKR there is no coincidence. It happens that Ginny is key for CoS, and now, HBP is coming and in OoP Ginny is a fairly good character. Odd, yes?

Or is it that they dislike Ron because he is a threat to their ship, because deep down they know its going to be R/Hr but they don't want it...

Teehee. *whispers*Yeah, I know! But we have to be nice!

Or perhaps they ship Harry/Hermione because they dislike Ron to the point where they want Hermione with Harry, just so she doesn't end up with Ron. :huh:

voldemort666

December 31st, 2004, 2:08 am

Exactly. Romance is supposed to surprise the characters, not the readers. I'll be surprised and shocked if Hermione ended up with Harry.

Remember: ultimately, a fictional character is nothing but a perception of the reader. So, how a person views a particular character will be different from person to person. If the reader is brilliant enough to catch all the obvious as well as the subtle clues from the author, there will not be any shocking surprise for him/her. The problem with majority of the readers (especially shippers) is that they do not belong to this category. I am sorry for JKR for all the hate mails she's gonna recieve :)

Perhaps you may find this essay interesting: http://www.talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=12930

Firebolt2004

December 31st, 2004, 2:08 am

Why does it seem a lot of people that dislike Ron, ship Hermione and Harry together?

I have noticed that too!

HPEnthused

December 31st, 2004, 2:13 am

'Well, it's like Hagrid said, they can look after themselves,' said Hermione impatiently, 'and I suppose a teacher like Grubbly-Plank wouldn't usually show them to us before NEWT level, but, well, they are very interesting, aren't they? The way some people can see them and some can't! I wish I could.'

'Do you?' Harry asked her quietly.

She looked suddenly horrorstruck.

'Oh, Harry - I'm sorry - no, of course I don't - that was a really stupid thing to say.'

I've never understood why Harry forgetting Ginny's possession from two-three years before is the death-knell to their possible relationship, but Hermione forgetting Harry's ordeal of approximately six months before is just fine and dandy. But then, I don't understand why forgetting something is a death-knell, anyway.

Sorry Angua9, I think you're reaching with this one. Hermione did not forget Harry's ordeal here, she simply didn't realize the implications of her words. She wished she could see the winged horses, without thinking about what she would have to go through to see them. Once she caught on, she was horrified at how insensitive she must have sounded to those who have gone through bad things.

IceKat55

December 31st, 2004, 2:18 am

Remember: ultimately, a fictional character is nothing but a perception of the reader. So, how a person views a particular character will be different from person to person.
Agree, but I think there is also a very fine line between perception and personal preference. The author's intent is of course unchangeable, but how we perceive and read clues, versus personal preference, are two really different things. And I've personally always felt that, in a lot of cases, Harmony is more to do with one's personal preference. I do read the arguments made for that ship, and some of them are quite good and very inventive, but at this point in the series, in no way would I ever believe that Rowling is intending anything other than a R/Hr pairing. And I do not ship Heron because of my personal preference. It's all about the clues. :)

Firebolt2004

December 31st, 2004, 2:20 am

IceKat55

December 31st, 2004, 2:21 am

Sorry Angua9, I think you're reaching with this one. Hermione did not forget Harry's ordeal here, she simply didn't realize the implications of her words. She wished she could see the winged horses, without thinking about what she would have to go through to see them. Once she caught on, she was horrified at how insensitive she must have sounded to those who have gone through bad things.
Just as Harry was struck silent as he realized Ginny's words, and he then felt genuinely sorry and apologized to her. However...of course he didn't really forget her ordeal in the Chamber, no more than Hermione really forgot that Harry had seen Cedric's death. The two instances Angua is illustrating are related. :)

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 2:26 am

Agree, but I think there is also a very fine line between perception and personal preference. The author's intent is of course unchangeable, but how we perceive and read clues, versus personal preference, are two really different things. And I've personally always felt that, in a lot of cases, Harmony is more to do with one's personal preference. I do read the arguments made for that ship, and some of them are quite good and very inventive, but at this point in the series, in no way would I ever believe that Rowling is intending anything other than a R/Hr pairing. And I do not ship Heron because of my personal preference. It's all about the clues. :)

Bold: Agreed completey! Like everything else but I like that statement the best.

I orginally didn't care. I wrote an early fanfiction Hermione/Harry because it was focused on something completely away from them - and then I actually reread the books and thought myself stupid for ever thinking Harry/Hermione.

Heron is overwhelming. I, also, think it's the clues that alter my preference. I see it in the books, therefore I want to defend it and make it known. I love it, now, because I saw it every time I read Harry Potter.

HPEnthused

December 31st, 2004, 2:39 am

Just as Harry was struck silent as he realized Ginny's words, and he then felt genuinely sorry and apologized to her. However...of course he didn't really forget her ordeal in the Chamber, no more than Hermione really forgot that Harry had seen Cedric's death. The two instances Angua is illustrating are related. :)

Related perhaps, but Harry admits he forgot all about Ginny's ordeal. He hadn't given Ginny a second thought. As they grow, he could definetly see Ginny in a different light, but at this point he has not thought about her and forgot all about her troubles and near death experience.

I believe that Hermione's remark was just thoughtlessness. That does not mean true love either.

Firebolt2004

December 31st, 2004, 2:43 am

Related perhaps, but Harry admits he forgot all about Ginny's ordeal. He hadn't given Ginny a second thought. As they grow, he could definetly see Ginny in a different light, but at this point he has not thought about her and forgot all about her troubles and near death experience.

I believe that Hermione's remark was just thoughtlessness. That does not mean true love either.

I don't think Harry didn't give Ginny a second thought, he was just so horrified by the whole ordeal that he wasn't thinking rationally at that time.Neither situation has anything to do with true love, but H/G shippers admire the way Ginny handled herself at that time.

nrogara

December 31st, 2004, 3:44 am

*de-lurking for a moment*

Rons shining moment. No Harry. Yet she choose to fall asleep. And then rush off to bed. Yet she is meant to be secretly in love with Ron. I dont see it.

I have seen this arguement made quite often by some people who support H/Hr, but I have a question to ask those who believe it. If Hermione falling asleep during Ron's party is so bad what do you make of Hermione leaving a party in Harry's honor because a poster annoys her? A party, I might add, to celebrate a feat she helped him accomplish. How is one bad and the other not? Just wondering.

Ok, back to lurking, I was just wondering about this.

Messed

December 31st, 2004, 4:07 am

I have seen this arguement made quite often by some people who support H/Hr, but I have a question to ask those who believe it. If Hermione falling asleep during Ron's party is so bad what do you make of Hermione leaving a party in Harry's honor because a poster annoys her? A party, I might add, to celebrate a feat she helped him accomplish. How is one bad and the other not? Just wondering.

She at least managed to stay awake for Harry's party.

Tzigone

December 31st, 2004, 4:12 am

She at least managed to stay awake for Harry's party.

With Ron she had no choice but to miss the rest of the party; she couldn't help falling asleep. With Harry she chose to miss the rest of the party.

And, just to clarify, I think using either of the incidents as shippy is strange. She was there because she cared, in both cases.

DragonChamber7

December 31st, 2004, 4:12 am

She atleast managed to stay awake for Harry's party.

That's because she wasnt up doing something the night before Harry's party. The party proof really shouldnt be discussed anymore. They're the same circumstances.

Nicole99

December 31st, 2004, 4:25 am

I personally think the purpose of BOTH incidents are to show how stressed out Hermione is due to the OWLs. She falls asleep from lack of sleep, not because she isn't interested in Ron. She gets irritated by the poster because it is disrupting her studies.

These seem like very poor shipping arguments indeed.

HedwigOwl

December 31st, 2004, 4:32 am

Quote:
It's undeniable that Ron has feelings for Hermione, but relationships are about mutual affections. What evidence is there in the books that Hermione is returning Ron's feelings?

Good post. I dont think there is anything in OOTP. There are more clues about Hermione likeing Harry in OOTP.

I agree, lots of evidence Ron likes Hermione, not so much evidence in the other direction. By the way, I don't think most H/HR people dislike Ron. I'm an H/HR, but like Ron's character, he's got a good strategic sense and is a lot smarter than others (including Ron) think.

There's been a lot of discussion about whether there's enough time to write in development for romantic relationships -- but let's consider this.....now that Harry knows the prophecy he will no doubt share that with Ron, Hermione, possibly Ginny. We all know the possible implications for Harry are as serious as they get (like not surviving). Nothing jolts a person awake more than realizing you might lose someone you care very much about. So I think JKR can get ANY pairing there in an instant under this plot line. What do you think?

Tzigone

December 31st, 2004, 4:35 am

HedwigOwl

December 31st, 2004, 4:44 am

Maybe yes, maybe no. I think she can jumpstart any ship, but not take it too far. She can get anyone started with this, but developing the relationship will still take a little time. Not a lot, necessarily, but it will need some page-space if the readers are supposed to accept that it's growing and developing.

I guess in short, I think she could get away with "I care about you" but still needs a little page-space to get to "I love you."

I'm not sure JKR will ever get to an "I love you" stage. I see it more alluding to relationships in the last book, and maybe something in an epilogue at the end that gives us a slight glimpse. I don't see a big development at all, that's not really what the series is about in my opinion anyway.

DragonChamber7

December 31st, 2004, 4:48 am

I'm not sure JKR will ever get to an "I love you" stage. I see it more alluding to relationships in the last book, and maybe something in an epilogue at the end that gives us a slight glimpse. I don't see a big development at all, that's not really what the series is about in my opinion anyway.

Right I agree, a relationship will only add a bit more conflict and excitment, Harry Potter isn't based upon 'Who Will fall in love with Whom.'

Tzigone

December 31st, 2004, 5:05 am

I'm not sure JKR will ever get to an "I love you" stage. I see it more alluding to relationships in the last book, and maybe something in an epilogue at the end that gives us a slight glimpse. I don't see a big development at all, that's not really what the series is about in my opinion anyway.

Well, I don't think HP is a romance novel. But we might see Harry fall in love (don't think we'll get the details of anyone else's romances) and if we do I wouldn't be too surprised for one or the other to say "I love you." I mean Han and Leia said "I love you" and the SW trilogy isn't about romance.

HedwigOwl

December 31st, 2004, 5:21 am

Well, I don't think HP is a romance novel. But we might see Harry fall in love (don't think we'll get the details of anyone else's romances) and if we do I wouldn't be too surprised for one or the other to say "I love you." I mean Han and Leia said "I love you" and the SW trilogy isn't about romance.

I don't see how Harry will be able to focus on a relationship until the Voldemort thing is settled. He's carrying a huge burden at the moment. And by the way, JKR is so much more sophisticated in her writing than the Star Wars script (and yes, I do like Star Wars).

Claudia

December 31st, 2004, 5:31 am

Well, I don't think HP is a romance novel. But we might see Harry fall in love (don't think we'll get the details of anyone else's romances) and if we do I wouldn't be too surprised for one or the other to say "I love you." I mean Han and Leia said "I love you" and the SW trilogy isn't about romance.Those characters are older than the HP characters, though. It makes sense that they could progress farther along the relationship continuum.

Tzigone

December 31st, 2004, 5:37 am

I don't see how Harry will be able to focus on a relationship until the Voldemort thing is settled. He's carrying a huge burden at the moment. And by the way, JKR is so much more sophisticated in her writing than the Star Wars script (and yes, I do like Star Wars).

People fall in love during wars. There's often a lot of "wait time" where you can't do anything but stay on guard and well, wait. Harry won't spend every mometn engaged in battle or planning for battle. And besides which, this is fiction and anything can happen.

And if you think JKR is more sophisticated that SW, that's fine, but there's no reason to bring it up here. I'm simply illustrating that "I love you" can come outside a book/movie specifically about romance. Would V Saga be better?

Those characters are older than the HP characters, though. It makes sense that they could progress farther along the relationship continuum.

We have two years left. Falling in love and being able to speak it over a two-year course of time is not unbelievable or unrealistic, IMO. I'm not saying it has to happen, but it certainly can happen.

HedwigOwl

December 31st, 2004, 5:41 am

And if you think JKR is more sophisticated that SW, that's fine, but there's no reason to bring it up here. I'm simply illustrating that "I love you" can come outside a book/movie specifically about romance. Would V Saga be better?

Only brought it up 'cause you brought it up as an example.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 5:46 am

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 5:51 am

Two years can most certainly be love. I know people that dated for a year before getting married. Yes, they were in their late teens, but it is possible. Age is just a number, I'm fourteen and some people mistake me (looks, personallity and stance-wise) as someone as old as 17.

Same with me... I had some people shocked at my age because they though I was much older :p Lol anyway...

I think its possible for people to fall in love in two years..why not? We know Lily and James did..they didnt get together until 7th year and they got married not too long after that.

Tzigone

December 31st, 2004, 5:54 am

Only brought it up 'cause you brought it up as an example.

But I didn't bring up it's writing style or complexity. I used only as an example that romance can occur in a non-romance film, so your comment really didn't have anything at all to do with what I said, unless you are saying that only less-complex movies/books do that. And I know I'm uber-sensitive here, but I don't like to negatively judge one show/movie/book in another's forum unless there is a specific comparison being made. I think it comes from being both a ST and a SW fan and seeing the wars that occur.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 5:56 am

Same with me... I had some people shocked at my age because they though I was much older :p Lol anyway...

I think its possible for people to fall in love in two years..why not? We know Lily and James did..they didnt get together until 7th year and they got married not too long after that.

Good point with the Lily and James comments.

Likewise, last year when I was thirteen, I was at a party, and people asked where I parked my car. lol That was funny. :)

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 6:00 am

WhoAmI

December 31st, 2004, 6:04 am

Two years can most certainly be love. I know people that dated for a year before getting married. Yes, they were in their late teens, but it is possible. Age is just a number, I'm fourteen and some people mistake me (looks, personallity and stance-wise) as someone as old as 17.
LOL and I'm practically middle-aged & often mistaken for someone only 30! (Just kidding-had to throw that in there!) :rotfl:
And I agree, even though it only takes us 2 days to read the book, we have to remember that each book covers an entire year, and 2 years is still a lot of time for relationships to develop, or even to spring up out of nowhere.

LilypadLollipop

December 31st, 2004, 6:05 am

Well, I don't think HP is a romance novel. But we might see Harry fall in love (don't think we'll get the details of anyone else's romances) and if we do I wouldn't be too surprised for one or the other to say "I love you." I mean Han and Leia said "I love you" and the SW trilogy isn't about romance.
i agree with that, but i don't think it'll have a massive effect on the books. i could see Harry falling in love but i don't think we'll get a lot of details or anything. *yawns* g'night everybody

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 6:06 am

Good point with the Lily and James comments.

Likewise, last year when I was thirteen, I was at a party, and people asked where I parked my car. lol That was funny. :)

Lol last year when I was 13 i was on spring break with my family and the lady behind the counter said "Aww how sweet you still shop with you're parents, How old are you 17,18?" No.. :p

Anyway getting off topic :blush: I seem to be doing that a lot lately.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 6:09 am

Lol last year when I was 13 i was on spring break with my family and the lady behind the counter said "Aww how sweet you still shop with you're parents, How old are you 17,18?" No.. :p

Anyway getting off topic :blush: I seem to be doing that a lot lately.

Exactly! lol I have to say, you remind me of my best friend. I call her, "Miss Energizer Bunny." and for short it's: "Miss ERB" so that was odd.

And as a matter for shipping: I think that how Harry feel sorry for Luna is a bad start for any relationship. :td:

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 6:11 am

Exactly! lol I have to say, you remind me of my best friend. I call her, "Miss Energizer Bunny." and for short it's: "Miss ERB" so that was odd.

And as a matter for shipping: I think that how Harry feel sorry for Luna is a bad start for any relationship. :td:
Correct,Pity is not a good foundation for a romantic relationship.Harry/luna is very unlikely to happen.

EnglishMuffin

December 31st, 2004, 6:12 am

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 6:13 am

Exactly! lol I have to say, you remind me of my best friend. I call her, "Miss Energizer Bunny." and for short it's: "Miss ERB" so that was odd.

And as a matter for shipping: I think that how Harry feel sorry for Luna is a bad start for any relationship. :td:

LOL well Miss ERB..doesnt stand for that :p . Its just my initials. I'm not sure about the whole Luna/Harry thing..but I just cannot see it happening. Nor do I want it to. Friends. Yes, I can see them being good friends but not in a relationship.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 6:14 am

Correct,Pity is not a good foundation for a romantic relationship.Harry/luna is very unlikely to happen.

I feel this is the only thing we will truly agree on. :)

DragonChamber7

December 31st, 2004, 6:16 am

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 6:17 am

LOL well Miss ERB..doesnt stand for that :p . Its just my initials. I'm not sure about the whole Luna/Harry thing..but I just cannot see it happening. Nor do I want it to. Friends. Yes, I can see them being good friends but not in a relationship.

:rotfl: hehe

There's something about Luna I don't trust... :grumble:

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 6:17 am

As for the Ron/Hermione ship... let's not overlook the fact that movie evidence, especially in the third film, points to really really strong Ron/Hermione tension. The hand-holding incident, the constant fighting...

JKR would not let this stuff fly in the movies if she did not intend to see the Ron/Hermione ship through. I also doubt that she'd put intentionally misleading clues in the films. I remember her saying in an interview once (though I can't remember when...) that she had some really in-dept conversations with Chris Columbus before the making of CoS. She apparently told him a liiiitle bit about what was going to happen in the later books so that he could put in a little foreshadowing for good measure. Hence, the Ron/Hermione tension in CoS as well. (Great Hall scene when Hermione is un-petrified)
That's what I hate about the films.They just blindly insert some r/hr hand holding or something like that and try to make it obvious.

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 6:17 am

As for the Ron/Hermione ship... let's not overlook the fact that movie evidence, especially in the third film, points to really really strong Ron/Hermione tension. The hand-holding incident, the constant fighting...

JKR would not let this stuff fly in the movies if she did not intend to see the Ron/Hermione ship through. I also doubt that she'd put intentionally misleading clues in the films. I remember her saying in an interview once (though I can't remember when...) that she had some really in-dept conversations with Chris Columbus before the making of CoS. She apparently told him a liiiitle bit about what was going to happen in the later books so that he could put in a little foreshadowing for good measure. Hence, the Ron/Hermione tension in CoS as well. (Great Hall scene when Hermione is un-petrified)

Yes exactly. Lets say your the average viewer of the Harry Potter movies and you've never read the books. And you've been watching a cute, lovable build up of a R/Hr relationship. But then all of a sudden Its Hermione whose actually in love with Harry..And I'm sure most people who just watch the movies and probably hoping and expecting something to happen with R/Hr.

So if JK was not planning on having a R/Hr relationship do you really think she would allow the directors/script writers put that in the movies..not likely.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 6:19 am

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 6:21 am

:rotfl: hehe

There's something about Luna I don't trust... :grumble:

Lol well I trust her I guess. I dont have a reason not too. I wouldnt put my life in her hands that for sure..shes much to unaware. But as far as a relationship with Harry..well Harry and Luna!? I have lack of evidence but I really dont think anythings going to happen there.

DragonChamber7

December 31st, 2004, 6:21 am

That's what I hate about the films.They just blindly insert some r/hr hand holding or something like that and try to make it obvious.

Blindly Is far from what they're doing...

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 6:31 am

jkr herself has said that all the feelings stuff begins in GOF.So how come these guys in the film put in some shippy scenes in the first three movies?That's why I called them acting Blindly.The hug scene at the end of COS movie really irritates me because they're just twelve then.How can they show tension between twelve year olds?

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 6:33 am

Yes exactly. Lets say your the average viewer of the Harry Potter movies and you've never read the books. And you've been watching a cute, lovable build up of a R/Hr relationship. But then all of a sudden Its Hermione whose actually in love with Harry..And I'm sure most people who just watch the movies and probably hoping and expecting something to happen with R/Hr.

So if JK was not planning on having a R/Hr relationship do you really think she would allow the directors/script writers put that in the movies..not likely.

I have friends that read the books, but aren't that into it with websites. They say, "I want Harmony!" or "I think Hermione would be best for Harry!" but they always end with, "But I think that Hermione and Ron will happen!"

It would confuse them in Harmony happened. I must agree with you fully there. :tu:

DragonChamber7

December 31st, 2004, 6:33 am

How can they show tension between twelve year olds?

Maybe its just me, but when i was 12 i had tension...

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 6:34 am

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 6:35 am

Maybe its just me, but when i was 12 i had tension...
Maybe,but I think it's very unlikely at that age

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 6:39 am

Lol well I trust her I guess. I dont have a reason not too. I wouldnt put my life in her hands that for sure..shes much to unaware. But as far as a relationship with Harry..well Harry and Luna!? I have lack of evidence but I really dont think anythings going to happen there.

I don't know. She's suspicious. To me, at least. I need to reread OoP. But when I read the clues, Luna happens to come in to a room right as Harry ends what he's doing. Coincidence? I don't know.

I'm weird, but I, like you, don't see her with anyone. I see her being a friend - maybe even doing something untrustworthy.

But I'm shutting up now. :rotfl:

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 6:41 am

You'd be surprised what 12 year olds can feel...
I wouldn't know about that.My school was an only boys school.Even my friend circle din't have a girl in it.Who knows...

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 6:54 am

I wouldn't know about that.My school was an only boys school.Even my friend circle din't have a girl in it.Who knows...

The major difference I felt from 12/13 wasn't necessarily sexual maturity (puberty) but mental maturity. Learning more, and noticing more things. I still am very much in love/like/whatever with a guy that I've known since I was 9. We've had some huge tension even with him being 13 and me being 12. Life is odd in many ways.

jkr herself has said that all the feelings stuff begins in GOF.So how come these guys in the film put in some shippy scenes in the first three movies?That's why I called them acting Blindly.The hug scene at the end of COS movie really irritates me because they're just twelve then.How can they show tension between twelve year olds?

That's why they called it foreshadowing. That's why they said it was premature and that it was of what was to come. That's why they said it's gradually getting there. In movies they don't show a lot of what happens in the books, so if no little scenes like that happened, the Yule Brawl would seem out of place.

I have a question: Why do people think it would take less time for Hermione and Harry to get together (with all the developing, not to mention Ron's feelings) but say JKR has no time to make Ginny a love interest?

Angua9

December 31st, 2004, 7:06 am

Dear Angua, thanks for your thoughtful reply. I am afraid I do not have the time by the moment to check out all the pages you took and see the insulting parts that should have been taken, but on a general perusal I think that you take out of context parts that obviously are not insulting instead of the actual text intended in the quote. I tell you because I am personally not easily insulted and do not take much offense but rather laugh it away (I am sure you've noticed by now ) I wouldn't take what you quote as insults to Hermione. :)
I promise you I did not! I did my very best to find anything on the page that remotely resembled an insult, and sometimes I was sure because the only thing Ron did or said on the page was the thing I quoted.

Hey -- they're your page numbers. You're the one who listed them, claiming they were ALL insults to Hermione's intelligence, values, opinions, and work ethic. You tell me where I went wrong! And please, do tell me what were the insults on the pages I listed where I couldn't find anything. I'm truly curious.

I am sorry too to see that you didn't take to analalyze the worst parts such as "I'll sponsor to shut up about spew" or the part where Ron insulted so much (and to her back to boot) that she ended up crying all afternoon in the bathroom. (to quote only two). Or to analyze that Hermione thinks that our beloved Ron is rude as a everyday thing. But their bias to each. :p
I never argued that Ron never insults Hermione and I never would. You made an untrue claim -- that he insulted her on all those pages. You made another untrue claim -- that Harry never attacks her personally. I was pointing out your errors, and hypothesizing that they are evidence of bias on your part.

Personally, I think Ron's constant remarks about Hermione -- positive, negative, and neutral -- are strong evidence of his consistent and extreme interest in her and her doings. I also think that Hermione's constant remarks about Ron -- positive, negative, and neutral -- are strong evidence of her consistent and, if not extreme, at least substantial, interest in him and his doings.

Well, they are not only insults, Angua.
What? You specifically SAID they were all insults!

In fact if you read my essay you'll see that I condemn everything passive aggressive. Such as sneer, ridiculous, slender, demeaning attitudes, making the other feel stupid, etc as non verbal aggressiveness and in fact, are considered psychological abuse (something common among teenagers, unfortunately).
I don't want to sound like Ron here, but I wish you would lighten up. Look at the overall tone and dialogue of JKR's books -- she likes to write that kind of stuff. Remember, JKR loves both Hermione and Ron, despite their strong tendency to sneer, ridicule, demean, make other people feel stupid, etc.

If you don't like it, you should at least admit that Hermione is *just* as prone to it as Ron is. Let the two "abusive" characters have each other, and save Harry for a nicer girl! As for me, I see the love (I'm talking friendship here) behind it. I see the humorous tone that I'm afraid you often miss. I see the underlying sexual tension it masks (as Emma Watson so clearly understands -- they're afraid that they might like each other). Putting Hermione with a different guy -- whether it be Harry, Krum, Neville, or WHOMEVER -- isn't going to remove her tendency to argue, sneer, put people down, etc. In literature, bickerers get matched with bickerers -- that's how it works!

Well, obviously Harry is kinda of worried for her eating and sleeping well, Ron sniggers. Snigger is considered as aggressive attitude, as I expressed above. If you want I can point you to many websites about abuse
Note that Harry question is not made in any kind of tone. Not aggressive, at least.
You're doing that bias thing again. Ron wasn't described as using any kind of tone either. If Ron had said "are you planning on eating or sleeping at all this year" I strongly suspect you would read that as an insulting attack on Hermione's work ethic and values. But when Harry does it, you take it that he's worried about her well being. HE'S TEASING HER -- that's why Ron laughs (sniggers), and that's why she "ignores" BOTH of them.

If you want to get close to JKR's intended interpretation of scenes like this, I would strongly suggest you make as sympathetic and charitable an interpretation as possible of both Harry and Ron (and Hermione as well). These are all three JKR's beloved protagonists and favorites -- "innately good" people (she says) who love each other dearly and are "stronger together than apart" and who all three represent aspects of HER. If you think they're being abusive to each other -- well, JKR doesn't, is all I can say. Again, your opinion is as valid as hers, but hers is a much better predictor of future events.

Angua, maybe you'll find here at least, proof that I do analyze Harry's faults too. I took myself this very quote you take as the only sarcastic behavior I've been able to find from Harry towards Hermione's ideas. And it wasn't personal, but towards her *ideas* (it's in one of the posts I've made, I am sure you must have seen it).
I did see it. But - 1 - you're wrong, because Harry makes other sarcastic behavior to Hermione which you've missed. Maybe you interpreted them as gentle concern. :p And - 2 - it is a very personal attack, worse than most of the things from Ron you listed as insults. Hermione's idea is just as much part of her, just as "personal," as her cat or her opinion of Snape or her decision to drop Muggle Studies, or anything else that Ron "attacks."

You're right 3 rude comments from Ron and 1 from Harry. Still winning for overwhelming 200%, ain't he? Not such a strong bias apparently. :D
Well, if you want to change your argument from "Ron insults Hermione more than Harry does," I'll immediately concede. That's perfectly true. Of course I see a different reason for it than "Ron is a big old meanie." ;)

But the actual argument you made was "Ron attacks Hermione umpteen dozen times and Harry never does (except once, which isn't personal and doesn't really count)". That was an untrue, misleading, and biased argument, and of course I countered it! And yes, it is a strong bias, because the difference between "never" and "only a few times" is all the difference in the world.

Obviously I am. :D
Shall I list some for you? What about the example I already gave you on OotP page 712? Don't you want to even look for them?

Angua, it's you are taking me wrong. I disagree from a principle point of view with Ron's behavior towards Hermione. I think she deserves better treatment and somebody who can understand her at an intellectual level and truly appreciate her stunning intelligence, to estimulate her.
Why in the world would she deserve better when her behavior to him is just as bad? And actually worse in OotP? That's the part I don't get!

And, errr, why do you like her with Harry then? Because he doesn't do those things any more than Ron does.

It's not that I don't think that Harry and Hermioine are not realistic, but let us be sincere, where do you find two people so amazingly loyal and intelligent and proactive?
Well, Ron for one. And Ginny, I suspect. Neville, probably. And yes, I am being perfectly sincere.

The problem between (Ron) and (Harry and Hermione) is that JKR wrote those two groups worlds apart in intellectual, psychological and heroic accomplishment/qualities. Ron is Ok, but seems to fall short only when compared with two out of the way characters such as Harry and Hermione.
No he doesn't. (Ron and Hermione) fall short when compared to the exceptionally heroic (Harry). That's where the gap is. That's what I see in the books; that's what I hear in JKR's interview quotes; and that's what I think your different interpretation of the characters' actions is preventing you from seeing. And when I say "different," I mean "different from J.K. Rowling's."

No, I'm NOT claiming I can read JKR's mind and divine her intentions. But some things are obvious, and other things she's flat-out said. I'm positive she isn't meaning to portray Ron as "abusive," or "worlds apart" from Hermione and Harry, or only "OK." Honestly, I think J.K. Rowling would be angry if she happened to read some of the things you've said about her Ron. And I know Harry would be!

But of course my disliking Ginny is not that weird. Many people do for her strange personallity transplant, she is also painted as someone without faults, beautiful, atletic, smart, loyal, brave..... In one word, boring. :eyebrows:
Weird or not, it's clearly worlds apart from JKR's feelings about Ginny (and dude -- without faults???), except as it might cause you to interpret scenes differently from how JKR expected them to be interpreted.

Although I gotta accept that the impressive list of quotes was borrowed from somebody else. The essay is all mine though.
Well, that makes much more sense then! I couldn't understand why you called them all insults. What it really was was a list of conflicts or disagreements. Well, except for a couple which still don't get why they were on there at all.

Every single clue must be in the books? That means you don't consider Jo's interview talk about Ron and Hermione to be R/Hr clues. :tu:
That's right. I consider them to be R/Hr confirmations.

If Jo had never said anything about shipping in interviews I believe many people would still ship R/Hr; judging from the amount of times Hermione's JuleBall line or her looking furious at the 2nd task gets brought up as a starting point to an analyzation of a scene.
But that's irrelevant. If she uses it to trick other people, or even to make the already-tricked people feel more confident in their wrong path, she's breaking all the rules. The books must do the work all by themselves.

But you cant pin point Hermiones feelings.
Can too! JKR says so.

Well we all know she loved Sirius but she has a job to do. So i dont care if she is one of her favorite characters.
I wasn't arguing against Ginny dying. I was talking about the high likelihood that Darynthe's stated near-"visceral" dislike of Ginny would interfere with his ability to detect and interpret foreshadowing of future H/G (if any indeed exists). Having a visceral dislike of Sirius would also, in my opinion, hamper your ability to successfully predict future occurences in the books (though I don't believe she's ever listed Sirius as one of her favorites, actually).

The main romances in Emma, David Copperfield, and War and Peace are very similar to H/Hr. In all of these romances the main characters love interest is an important character from the beginning and is a brotherly or sisterly figure. There is no jealousy or UST involved, but instead an incredible bond with the love interest functioning as a voice of reason.
Whoa there, partner! I can't speak for David Copperfield or War and Peace, but this claim is dead wrong when it comes to Emma. The biggest, hugest clue to eventual Emma/Knightley is the strong, irrational jealousy that they both feel over the other's possible love interests -- Frank Churchill for Mr. Knightley and Jane Fairfax for Emma. And the UST is definitely there as well, as has been pointed out by countless literary critics. Just look at the ball scene, for goodness sake!

*still not caught up reading the thread, but I'd better post this before I fall even further behind*

Drusilla

December 31st, 2004, 8:41 am

One major problem in the shipping wars? Perspective, or the lack thereof. I've met more than one H/Hr shipper who believes Hermione embodies all that is perfect in human beings and so does Harry while Ron, being flawed, is automatically undeserving of "perfect" Hermione, who only deserves "perfect" Harry (or if Harry and Hermione are flawed, they're flawed in a way that allows them to be perfect for each other). Hermione is flawed, all right, which is why we love her so much on the page- she's human!She goes neurotic over work in her quest to excel., her concern for her friends makes her an annoying little nag at times, and she can sometimes, without knowing it, be just a mite insensitive. Her best qualities are sometimes just the flip side of some of her worst traits.
To suggest that Hermione's perfect, or to turn her into Saint Hermione in our heads, is just not fair to either the character or J.K. Rowling. I love the Harmony arguments, but the problems of Hermyitis and (among some) a total lack of regard for the fact that Harry, Hermione and Ron are best friends make it a little trying to read the posts. I wouldn't have a problem with Harrry/Hermione supporters if it wasn't for the near-consistent portrayal of Ron as some teenaged Neanderthal unworthy of Perfect!Hermione.

DanielB

December 31st, 2004, 8:49 am

First post, I hope it's a good one! :tu:

It all depends what Rowling is going for. Realism or fantasy.

I see Ron and Hermione as a cliche. Not a storybook cliche, but a "girls like guys that treat them badly" cliche. Think about the scenario: Ron and Hermione start fighting and next thing you know they're making out on the sofa and they don't know what they did without each other. That's primetime television romance. Personally, I don't know what's going to happen, but Rowling will have to work very hard to make that situation convincing. I would find a Ron/Hermione relationship highly unlikely, unless Rowling wants to turn it into a sitcom. I hope she opts for realism.

Also, how old will they all be? 16/17? I saw the Ron/Hermione thing happen in middle school a lot. Someone teases a girl and makes her cry. They argue insessantly. A week later they go out. Two weeks later they break up. I'm glad to say that for the most part, that stops happening. They're a little old for middle school behavior. I'd assume Hogwarts would be the same, but maybe wizards work differently. In High School, a Ron would never get a Hermione. A Hermione would find someone who respects her intelligence.

Whoa there, partner! I can't speak for David Copperfield or War and Peace, but this claim is dead wrong when it comes to Emma. The biggest, hugest clue to eventual Emma/Knightley is the strong, irrational jealousy that they both feel over the other's possible love interests -- Frank Churchill for Mr. Knightley and Jane Fairfax for Emma. And the UST is definitely there as well, as has been pointed out by countless literary critics. Just look at the ball scene, for goodness sake!

Maybe it's not jealousy? Maybe they just feel that the other's relationship is flawed. If a friend of mine goes out with someone I feel isn't right for them, that's fine. That doesn't mean I'm jealous.

As for Ron and Krum, I think that Ron just wanted Krum for himself. Not romantically, I don't mean that. I think he felt that if anyone should be a pal with his favorite quidditch player, it should be him, not his friend. It was a kind of slap in the face to him. Hermione, someone who doesn't even like quidditch, gets to hang out with Krum, and Ron gets to watch.

Uh...if a person even remotely likes another more than normal, they would tend to act a bit more overjoyed at their crush's party than Hermione was. If a person you liked made the team, you are not supposed to feel so tired you can't celebrate. The celebration is supposed to override the tireness. You're so excitied over what happened, you don't feel remotely tired.

Exactly. Unless she pulled an all-nighter the night before, I doubt she would have fallen asleep if she truly liked Ron. Especially at a celebration. She didn't want to be rude, but she obviously did not want to be there.

Hypothetical situation 1: a friend asks me to go to a party; I'm dead tired, but in order to not be rude I go for a while. In the meantime I'm thinking of an out. After an hour or so, I let myself be overcome by tiredness and I tell the friend I need to leave or else I'll be there all night. There. I satisfied the friend while not looking rude.

Hypothetical situation 2: a girl that I am highly interested in is going to be at the party. I'm dead tired, but I really like her, and this is the perfect time outside of the usual class to talk to her. Tiredness is a non-issue. Trust me. I'll stay as long as needed.

I have a question: Why do people think it would take less time for Hermione and Harry to get together (with all the developing, not to mention Ron's feelings) but say JKR has no time to make Ginny a love interest?

Why would she use all of the time/pages for something that has barely been alluded to? A lot of people see Ginny/Harry as a possibility, analyze it, and find that it could happen. I mean, they're opposite genders. Ginny used to like Harry. Sure, Harry, with enough effort, could "find out" that he secretely likes her. :huh: But do you see how that sounds? To me it's just that - a possibility. It's a "wouldn't it be cool if..." situation in which the only real argument is that Rowling could do it if she wanted to.

Angua9

December 31st, 2004, 9:18 am

I have a question. Has anyone ever read a classic novel or series where the main character's love interest is a character that has been around since the beginning as a minor character?
Sure. How about the Lymond Chronicles? Little Phillippa needed to grow up (just like Ginny)! There is a similar one, the Julian Kestrel mysteries by Kate Ross, but unfortunately the author died before the girl could grow up and marry the hero. Then there is Eight Cousins/Rose in Bloom, where Mac is Rose's least-regarded and least-well-known cousin. And the Dragonsinger series, where Menolly ends up with minor character Sebell, who was there all along. In Anne McCaffrey's "Rowan" series, the heroine Damia marries someone who has been a minor character since well before she was born. In Lois Bujold's great book "Curse of Chalion" the hero marries the main female's sidekick, who has been a fairly minor character since the beginning of the book.

Hey, it happens! If you want to see literary patterns that suggest H/G, you might be interested in a recent post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=1632063#post1632063) I did on The Whiny Little Tag-along Pattern.

Have someone with no knowledge of the Harry Potter series read the prefect scene, post kiss scene,or Hr falling asleep at Ron's party and asking Harry to knit and ask them who they believe that Hr loves. Of course do not tell them who you prefer. Trust me they will all answer Harry. Yes, JKR it is that obvious.
First, ummmm... :rotfl: how about having them read the Yule Ball scene? How about having them read the scene where Hermione drags Ron off to the library so Harry can ask Cho for a date? Or the scene where Hermione's frostiness melts when she looks at Ron?

What would they think then? :huh:

Secondly, I solemnly assure you that many (most?) people reading the prefect badge scene or the post kiss scene would see them as indications of future R/Hr, not H/Hr. So no, I can't trust you on that one. Can you trust me?

If you can't trust me, look at the facts. Emma Watson has read all those scenes, but she thinks Hermione loves Ron, not Harry. The same for Dan Radcliffe, Rupert Grint, David Heyman, Christopher Columbus, and Alfonso Cuaron. And for roughly 70-80% of the fandom, in most polls.

I really find it hard to believe that JKR (who calls herself a feminist) would write H/G.
Excuse me? H/G is sexist now? :(

I don't think that even a talented writer like JKR could make this romance believable. Both characters have barely interacted, and there is no bond. She has written Harry unimpressed by Ginny's valentine, never thinking about her, never being impressed or showing admiration of her, telling in front of Ginny that he had asked out Cho, forgetting that she was possessed, not protecting her and pulling her robes when she was specifically threatened, and when she becomes unconscious Harry shows no emotion which is highlighted with the upset Nevile who for the second time is trying to protect Ginny.
Ummmm, he did specifically protect her, remember? And he does think about her sometimes (God, I despise those hyperbolic "nevers"!). And -- yes -- he has been impressed and shown admiration for her.

You are missing some things, in my opinion. For instance, JKR has chosen to include a surprising number of passages where Harry worries about Ginny's feelings or happiness, more than she has of Harry worrying about Hermione's feelings or happiness. Why? In OotP, we actually have more descriptions of Ginny's appearance than we do of Hermione's. Again, why? Harry has had more shared private jokes with Ginny in the book than he has with his best friend Hermione. One wonders why.

I truly cannot understand why some would want Harry with Ginny. I think Harry has had more significant interaction with his ex love interest Cho than with Ginny. The only way JKR could write H/G now would be IMO superficial.
In MY opinion, you can't have a meaningful opinion on something you haven't read.

The point is that if JKR had intended to write H/G; I believe she would have formed a bond between them earlier in the books. This would prevent a superficial romance and I would have been all for a H/G pairing.
I think you are making unnecessary and arbitrary limitations on what romance patterns you consider acceptable. Do you find Louisa May Alcott's Jo/Professor Bhaer and Rose/Mac pairings superficial and unbelievable? Did you think it sucked in The Philadelphia Story when Cary Grant waltzed in and scooped up the Katharine Hepburn character at the end, after spending most of the movie on her interactions with Jimmy Stewart? Do you hate Aragorn/Arwen and Sam/Rosie (in the books)?

For me, a good romance is a good romance, no matter when the "bond" forms. I'm ready to go wherever Jo chooses to take Harry (as long as she satisfyingly resolves the R/Hr subplot, of course).

These was Rons shining moment. Nothing to do with Harry. Yet Hermione naps. :evil:
Poor girl -- Ron was ignoring her shamefully. She had nothing to do but nap and talk to Harry about his scar -- no wonder she wanted to go to bed! She's getting a taste of how all those lonely Quidditch practice evenings will be without Harry or Ron -- boooooooring. :sad:

What im saying and i think a few Herons wont admit it. Is that Hermione is showing no signs off having a crush on Ron. Or even god forbid loving Ron.

I know some of you are young on here but a few of you must off be in relationships and Hermione is not acting in the way you do for a said crush. Ron is acting normal.

Luna acts normal. We get the fact we fancys Ron. Yet nothing from Hermionw.

WHY?
Actually, Hermione is acting quite normally, and very much like Ron.

Ron is oversensitive and insults Hermione. Hermione is oversensitive and insults Ron.

Ron dislikes Hermione's Christmas present, but likes Harry's. Hermione dislikes(??) Ron's Christmas present, but likes Harry's.

Ron unfairly hates the guy who crushes on Hermione. Hermione unfairly hates the girl Ron crushes on.

You know what? Ron never acts the way you seem to be expecting Hermione to act. He NEVER gushes over Hermione's present to him or sits around all breathless with excitement worshipping her after one of her triumphs, or refuses to go off on important adventures so he can watch Hermione play a game, or tells Hermione he likes her, or shows a preference for her company over Harry's, or irrationally overestimates her abilities. So why would you expect Hermione to?

Methinks you have a different opinion than JKR about how someone having a crush or loving someone acts. And you have a different opinion from old married me, as well.

Aside to STIC -- you keep talking about the "three red herrings" of Hr-->R. But the things that first caused me to suspect Hr-->R are, well, none of those. For me, it was the "couple of trolls" scene and lines like "I'm sure you'll find someone somewhere who'll go with you" and "just because it's taken you three years to notice" and Hermione determinedly avoiding Ron's eyes and her frostiness melting and sighing and saying "you're worse than Ron" and continually rushing off to her room and -- yes -- a HUGE clue: her calling him an insensitive wart and telling him he has the emotional range of a teaspoon! *pauses for happy romantic sigh*

But then, the line that made me suspect Hr--->R in the first place was "he doesn't want me to join in."

I've found that "he" or "she" in italics like that is often an excellent clue. ;)

And two this is even more important: I am a woman, not a man!!!!
Ooops! :blush: *grovels in abject apology*

haha

December 31st, 2004, 9:25 am

DanielB

December 31st, 2004, 9:35 am

I think you are making unnecessary and arbitrary limitations on what romance patterns you consider acceptable. Do you find Louisa May Alcott's Jo/Professor Bhaer and Rose/Mac pairings superficial and unbelievable? Did you think it sucked in The Philadelphia Story when Cary Grant waltzed in and scooped up the Katharine Hepburn character at the end, after spending most of the movie on her interactions with Jimmy Stewart?

Do you hate Aragorn/Arwen and Sam/Rosie (in the books)?

I haven't read (or watched..?) The Philadelphia Story, but I assume it's similar to The Lord of the Rings as you grouped them together. The Lord of the Rings does not have normal communication and interaction. The whole story was leading up to Aragorn getting with Arwen and Sam getting Rosie. It was hobbits and elves and someone giving up eternal life for the love of a king. Realism has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Harry Potter is leading up to a showdown with Voldemort. Ginny does not have eternal life. Harry is not James Bond and Ginny is not a Bond Girl. Every person (well, the students) in the book is a normal human (excluding the magic part). Why would Jo throw in unrealistic Middle-Earth romance to go along with it? It completely change the attitude of the book. I hope Harry doesn't come in and sweep Ginny off her feet and kiss her out of nowhere. I'm shuddering just thinking of it.

rowansjet

December 31st, 2004, 9:44 am

It's been a while since i read them but was it actually mentioned in the books that Arwen had to give up eternal life for aragorn or whatever. I thought it was just something from the appendixes, that they thought was good for the movies, since they were making Arwen's role bigger than in the books.

Deevo

December 31st, 2004, 10:13 am

What im saying and i think a few Herons wont admit it. Is that Hermione is showing no signs off having a crush on Ron. Or even god forbid loving Ron.
Huh? You must be reading a different series of books to me then. :huh:

I know some of you are young on here but a few of you must off be in relationships and Hermione is not acting in the way you do for a said crush. Ron is acting normal.
:rotfl: I'm anything but young but thanks for the compliment. :rotfl:

so who thinks ron will finally grow up in HBP, so he and hermione can finally get somewhere?
Like I said in a previous post I think it's already started.

Age is just a number, I'm fourteen and some people mistake me (looks, personallity and stance-wise) as someone as old as 17.
I wish someone would mistake me for 17 again. :(

But anyway, enough of that.

I'll just reiterate how I see this whole issue again and why I see it that way.

The ships that I feel are likely:

Ron / Hermione - The obvious pair IMO. There have been feelings present between them from GOF though Ron has taken his time to see it in that light. The Yule brawl scene is a classic indication of this with Hermione giving Ron a right verbal bollocking for essentially missing the obvious. Ron is clearly jealous of Krum but at that point in the story is too emotionally immature to understand just what he's feeling so falls back on the trite and ultimately unjustified 'fraternising with the enemy' line. Hermione, on the other hand, is obviously waiting for Ron to 'open negotiations' though by the time Krum had asked her out she'd gotten tired of waiting.

This changed significantly toward the end of OOTP with Ron seemingly noticing Hermione in a more adult way.

See this editorial (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-khayes01.shtml), it explains things much better than I can.

Harry / Ginny - Not so obvious but a distinct possibility IMO. The two share a common bond in their experiences with Voldemort, are similar in temprement and skill and seem to complement each other in a way that Harry doesn't with any other girl he's so far come close too.

As far as a romantic connection is concerned well the 'I forgot' scene in OOTP was probably the first time Harry actually noticed Ginny as opposed to 'Ron's little sister' so whatever relationship the two may have is only at it's embrionic stage. Time will tell.

See this editorial (http://www.mugglenet.com/editorials/madampuddifoot/edit-kkearney01.shtml), it explains things much better than I can.

The ship that I feel is possible but unlikely:

Harry / Luna - To be frank I see Luna as a friend, confessor and confidant for Harry on matters of faith (where Hermione fulfills a similar role in matters of logic and concience). Sort of a junior Dumbledore figure with unlikely wisdom in a whimsical package. Would be a significan influence on Harry especially were he to face another major loss (Dumbledore?) in HBP or book seven.

However, were Ginny not to get together with Harry Luna could present an alternative.

The ship that I feel is all but impossible:

Harry / Hermione - There are several reasons why I don't think this is likely but the first and formost is that the trio are strongest together, Jo has said so herself. Harry has shown nothing for Hermione that can't be explained by concern for a good friend IMO. For those of you who wish to use the time turner sequence, either in the book or the film, as an example consider this. There is little in that scene that would present differently were it to be focussed on Ron and Harry rather than Hermione and Harry and that little can likewise be explained as a feminine reaction to the situation. Ron would be unlikely to hug Harry out of fear.

Also a Harry / Hermione relationship would leave Ron very much out in the cold. Not necessarily in a romantic sense but as a part of the trio dynamic. Harry functions best with them when Ron and Hermione work as equally significant, if dissimilar, influences on him. That would be completely thrown out of balance if Hermone were romantically involved with Harry and would reduce Ron's role to that of a courtier to the royal couple, an unworthy position for a him IMO.

However were Ron and Hermione to 'get together' they could quite easily both remain in their key backup positions for Harry without either being pushed into a background role. The dynamic would still work, and with Ron and Hermione's relationship, probably work better.

Besides, I think it'd be a lovely little comedic scene were Harry able to 'catch them at it' in some empty classroom or similar the way Ginny caught Percy in COS. :p

Lastly, were HBP and book seven to go in a completely different direction in that regard I won't lose any sleep over it. This is after all Harry Potter and not Mills and Boon and I have great faith in Jo's ability to spin a good yarn.

Oh and a general comment to some of those posting here. Lighten up a bit people, some of the posts are beginning to look a bit spiteful in spots.

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 11:16 am

The major difference I felt from 12/13 wasn't necessarily sexual maturity (puberty) but mental maturity. Learning more, and noticing more things. I still am very much in love/like/whatever with a guy that I've known since I was 9. We've had some huge tension even with him being 13 and me being 12. Life is odd in many ways.

That's why they called it foreshadowing. That's why they said it was premature and that it was of what was to come. That's why they said it's gradually getting there. In movies they don't show a lot of what happens in the books, so if no little scenes like that happened, the Yule Brawl would seem out of place.

I have a question: Why do people think it would take less time for Hermione and Harry to get together (with all the developing, not to mention Ron's feelings) but say JKR has no time to make Ginny a love interest?
Because ginny is still very distant to harry.On the other hand hermione is ever so close to harry that their relationship is on the brink of developing into love.

What I don't understand about the Heron arguement of ron being left alone if h/hr happens,is that doesn't ron have one big happy family where he will never be left alone?And won't harry be left alone if r/hr happens?harry doesn't have a decent family to comfort him.

ginny88

December 31st, 2004, 11:35 am

Sure. How about the Lymond Chronicles? Little Phillippa needed to grow up (just like Ginny)! There is a similar one, the Julian Kestrel mysteries by Kate Ross, but unfortunately the author died before the girl could grow up and marry the hero. Then there is Eight Cousins/Rose in Bloom, where Mac is Rose's least-regarded and least-well-known cousin. And the Dragonsinger series, where Menolly ends up with minor character Sebell, who was there all along. In Anne McCaffrey's "Rowan" series, the heroine Damia marries someone who has been a minor character since well before she was born. In Lois Bujold's great book "Curse of Chalion" the hero marries the main female's sidekick, who has been a fairly minor character since the beginning of the book.

Hey, it happens! If you want to see literary patterns that suggest H/G, you might be interested in a recent post (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=1632063#post1632063) I did on The Whiny Little Tag-along Pattern.

Read your Whiny Little Tag along pattern theory for H/G pairing, Angua9, and it makes sense to me how the Harry-Ginny little romance may begin to unfold :tu: The ugly duckling transformation to a beautiful Swan, and now being noticed by her ex-crush, romance in the air :clap:

Since PS/SS, Ginny has a soft spot in my heart coz I find her childish crush on Harry so cute (and I love the Weasleys btw), and this unrequitted love thing, awful and ackward on Ginny's part. Then voila, in OotP we saw a grown up Ginny now over Harry (which I hope is not true.) I love the idea of a sassy forceful dependable Ginny. I'm banking on their COS Riddle connection that I hope will again resurface in the last two books, thus, giving them time to develop a much deeper connection.

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 11:42 am

Read your Whiny Little Tag along pattern theory for H/G pairing, Angua9, and it makes sense to me how the Harry-Ginny little romance may begin to unfold :tu: The ugly duckling transformation to a beautiful Swan, and now being noticed by her ex-crush, romance in the air :clap:

Since PS/SS, Ginny has a soft spot in my heart coz I find her childish crush on Harry so cute (and I love the Weasleys btw), and this unrequitted love thing, awful and ackward on Ginny's part. Then voila, in OotP we saw a grown up Ginny now over Harry (which I hope is not true.) I love the idea of a sassy forceful dependable Ginny. I'm banking on their COS Riddle connection that I hope will again resurface in the last two books, thus, giving them time to develop a much deeper connection.
Maybe,but I think the way ginny just dumped michael corner after dating him for a year,doesn't quite send good signals

Crookshanks0583

December 31st, 2004, 12:04 pm

Hello, I'd like to voice an opinion, but it's also more like an agreement. I agree with Angelzrfree, when she says that Hermione is the key and that Draco and Hermione cold make Draco a good guy (so unlike his father), but I also disagree because of the "mudblood" tension between them. I don't think that hostility between them can be a cover-up for stronger "love like" feelings. I'm personally conflicted about who I'd like Hermione to end up with, because of the underlying currents, I'd choose Ron and Hermione but, then everyone wants to see the "hero" to get the girl. As you can see I'm definitely conflicted!!! Your theories are important please post replies, I am interested in your views....

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 12:10 pm

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 12:11 pm

IMO it shows how Hermione feels about Ron and his moment.

All though OOTP we see how Ron acts and how Hermione acts. And there is a h*ell of a diffrence in the way the 2 act around each other.

Now we know Ron likes Hermione and he acts like he likes Hermione. We see all the signs.

But there are none from Hermione. She does none of the stuff that Ron does.
Actually I think it is SHIPPY It shows that even though Hermione was exhausted she still went to the party and even fell asleep right there on a chair , she still dreamt about Ron :eyebrows: that he was the first thing she talked about when she wokeup .
Compare to two years earlyer when she refused to sit in Harry's party because she was fighting with RON AND NOT HARRY when she preferred to go to the library instead, even though she was invited by Harry and Ron realy had nothing to do with the party other than being a guest.

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 12:19 pm

Actually I think it is SHIPPY It shows that even though Hermione was exhausted she still went to the party and even fell asleep right there on a chair , she still dreamt about Ron :eyebrows: that he was the first thing she talked about when she wokeup .
Compare to two years earlyer when she refused to sit in Harry's party because she was fighting with RON AND NOT HARRY when she preferred to go to the library instead, even though she was invited by Harry and Ron realy had nothing to do with the party other than being a guest.
You know,I think hermione din't go to bed during ron's party because she wanted to meet harry.I mean talk about his detention.And they did talk about it din't they?And why was it that hermione wanted to go to bed as soon as she finished talking to harry?And if it was shippy then hermione would have hung around even after harry came and went to bed.But she just chose to lie down when harry said he was going to bed,get it?

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 12:34 pm

And I have to point this out because I think the latest round of posters have forgotten this tiny bit: when Hermione asks Harry to join her in knitting elf-hats, she is not saying "I may not want to stay up for Ron's party, but I could certainly stay up for you, Harry." Hermione is definitely going to bed right then; she asks Harry to join her the next day.
Not to mention that the next day was a sturday and they had no classes

FlyingPhoenix

December 31st, 2004, 12:41 pm

Okay, since I obviously haven't been clear enough, here is what I am saying.

The shipping debate is not a mystery. Therefore, it cannot have red herrings. A red herring is a type of clue and there can be no clues without a mystery. The reason the shipping debate is not a mystery is that it is presented as a logical plot-oriented progression rather than a question which the readers *and characters* try to find an answer for. Your comparisons to other issues in the text *support* my point.

All right I did answer before that your assertions are at fault but since I wasn't clear enough let me rip your little piece of post apart, maybe then you get what I'm saying.

I'd like to advance the idea that R/H as a red herring *as described by Harmony* will not be believable to a reader who a) has read the books and is inclined to R/H; b) who has not read, heard, or seen the interviews; and c) who has not participated in the fandom. Not that it makes a difference, but there are many such readers.

You fail to understand that this red-herring, this mystery how you like call it isn't yet written or tried in canon to be resolved so one could speak about a mystery at all. A R/Hr shipper who never read interviews or stepped in this fandom is most likely not as firm in his believes as a R/Hr shipper who is on the fandom. Says he is still changeable and still aware that R/Hr didn't happen and that in book6 he might finally read it. Now the red-herring theory is based on what this person will read in book6. This means clues which were in book3-5 are now in use as red-herring, i.e mystery which will resolved in book6. Before a mystery or red-herring isn't resolved one cannot say that's a red-herring at all or that are clues- Nor can one say it doesn't even exist.That's really not that hard to understand.

Winky had Harry's wand. Barty Crouch was on the Marauder's Map. Professor Moody was awake while somebody was stealing something from Snape's office. Snape accuses Harry of stealing boomslang. Barty Crouch Sr. turns up at Hogwarts. These are well-hidden enough that it's a struggle even to recognize what's a clue and what's not a clue.

And that should show you before the mystery isn't resolved you cannot say its for sure a mystery at all. You may ask, you may wonder but haveing real clues to claim thats a mystery you don't have.
Example if we did stop by the third task by GoF and needed to wait a few months till we read how Crouch jr is indeed Moody and the one who cast this Dark Mark, I'm pretty sure we did read your post about not existing Mysteries on that one too.
Before this mystery was resolved we didn't know what are the clues and what are not, all we did was wonder and in case of shipping one may very well wonder why Hermione kissed Harry at the end of GoF, also why she was furious as Fleur kissed Ron. There are questions which aren't resolved yet and for this to be recognised as Mystery at all we need to read the resolving of this mystery which didn't happen yet.

That's why I said earlier and I say it again the Theory about Red-Herring in romance question is now at best speculation, just as much as your claim there don't exist one. Your whole post is pure speculation because the Shipping Question isn't yet answered. Every Red-Herring post on this thread is pure speculation but is it an impossible one? No, as I said before JKR can very well writeing a red-herring.

By making it perfectly clear that it is a mystery, JKR is telling us that enough clues will be provided and challenging us to use them well.

If the mystery isn't resolved, you cannot know if you got enough clues at all. The question what power Harry got to win against Voldemort and how he can use it is another mystery which you'll recognise at the end of book7 had clues through all books but only resolved in the last one. There its the same concept.

Our reader does not know that this is a mystery. He expects interaction between boys and girls not to be clues, but to be created entirely for the purpose of driving the plot forward. And he is right.

You're wrong to make such an assertion since you are generalizing all R/Hr shipper or all readers here and that's plain wrong.

The shipping question was not created by JKR for the readers to answer. It was created by the readers, by the fandom.

To me it was probably created by fandom, yet I know that I did as I finished GoF asking whether H/Hr or R/Hr will happen so yes JKR did create this question for me since I was after I read GoF not in fandom nor did I read any interviews.

Next time you try to teach me something, you may try and stop to assume I have no idea what a Red-Herring or a Mystery is.

Crookshanks0583

December 31st, 2004, 12:43 pm

Thanks for the warm welcome snoopy_bombay.... Personally I agree with you and would like to see the Harry / Hermione ship work out further.... but, to avoid conflict, I am open to other points of view

stic

December 31st, 2004, 12:52 pm

Angua9 wrote:Aside to STIC -- you keep talking about the "three red herrings" of Hr-->R. But the things that first caused me to suspect Hr-->R are, well, none of those. This is the standard answer I get.
"Oh no, Jo's quotes and the 3 GoF moments are by far not the best evidence for R/Hr...."
Every, and I mean every heron has first of all Jo's quotes and the 3 GoF moments in mind before he/she analyzes any scene. So, naturally for this heron every remotely ship-relevant scene will become then either R/Hr evidence or this scene won't contradict R/Hr. Like these scenes in your case: For me, it was the "couple of trolls" scene and lines like "I'm sure you'll find someone somewhere who'll go with you" and "just because it's taken you three years to notice"
In the "couple of trolls" scene Ron overtly displays his general, super-negative opinion about girls who are not physically attractive.
At that moment Hermione still had her long teeth as I remember. No wonder she was offended.
Lines like "I'm sure you'll find someone somewhere who'll have you" is Hermione hitting back: Ron put many girls into a loser-category, now he seems to have to choose one amongst them.
"just because it's taken you three years to notice". Ron never saw the woman in Hermione before, then he needed a date at the last minute and Hermione fulfilled the minimum requirements:She was female.

If all of these things first caused you to suspect Hr-->R before any Jo-quotes and before the 3 GoF moments, what is then the thinking behind it?
Guy being uber-chauvinist---->girl hates it------->they'll end up at some point

I can see that this has been done before in other stories but I can't see how this is a strong point for R/Hr in the HP series.
and -- yes -- a HUGE clue: her calling him an insensitive wart and telling him he has the emotional range of a teaspoon! *pauses for happy romantic sigh* Suit yourselves.
But then, the line that made me suspect Hr--->R in the first place was "he doesn't want me to join in." ??? :shrug:

xray

December 31st, 2004, 12:52 pm

Rons shining moment. No Harry. Yet she choose to fall asleep. And then rush off to bed. Yet she is meant to be secretly in love with Ron. I dont see it. I have seen this arguement made quite often by some people who support H/Hr, but I have a question to ask those who believe it. If Hermione falling asleep during Ron's party is so bad what do you make of Hermione leaving a party in Harry's honor because a poster annoys her? A party, I might add, to celebrate a feat she helped him accomplish. How is one bad and the other not?Not only that, the question the Harmonites must ask themselves is not why did did Hermione fall asleep but why was she there if she was so exhausted in the first place? That is commitment.

xray

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 12:55 pm

You know,I think hermione din't go to bed during ron's party because she wanted to meet harry.I mean talk about his detention.And they did talk about it din't they?And why was it that hermione wanted to go to bed as soon as she finished talking to harry?And if it was shippy then hermione would have hung around even after harry came and went to bed.But she just chose to lie down when harry said he was going to bed,get it?
Wrong Wrong .the BOOK stats that
"Oh , Harry , it's you......good about Ron , isn't it?' she said blearly.
'I'm just so-so-so tired,' she yawned 'I was up till one o'clock making hats . they are disapearing like mad!' snip
" Great ' said Harry distractedly ;If he did not tell somebody soon, he would burst. 'listen , Hermione , I was just up in UMbridge's office and she touched my arm
It is clear from the passege that Hermione did not open the subject with Harry and since she didn't know about his scar hurting ( she couldn't know as it just happend) then she had no way of knowing that harry would open the subject by himself.
Your argument is based on a wrong assumption Hemione had no garanties that Harry would not have celebrated with Ron intead of talking to her , as the fact that his scar would hurt was not known befor.

xray

December 31st, 2004, 12:56 pm

Well i think its good and its got to be good to be on mugglenet.I'm surprised that you'd call R/Hr and H/G essays good. I'm glad you're finally seeing the light. :tu: :D

xray

stic

December 31st, 2004, 1:04 pm

xray the question the Harmonites must ask themselves is not why did did Hermione fall asleep but why was she there if she was so exhausted in the first place? I asked myself that question and you know what? That wasn't realcommitmentthat was "at least not being rude" :td:

Yes she was there. But only physically......

Chhhhhhh........chrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

And she wasn't sorry about that, was she? She woke up and was glad she could go to bed for real without appearing rude.
And didn't tell Ron goodnight.
Hermione's concern was just to be not "rude", that's all. Which is very little.

noodle

December 31st, 2004, 1:09 pm

xray I asked myself that question and you know what? That wasn't realthat was "at least not being rude" :td:

Yes she was there. But only physically......

Chhhhhhh........chrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.......

And she wasn't sorry about that, was she? She woke up and was glad she could go to bed for real without appearing rude.
And didn't tell Ron goodnight.
Hermione's concern was just to be not "rude", that's all. Which is very little.
And why didn't she want to be rude to Ron?
That didn't stop her from walking out of Harrys party in the past! *hint hint* :angel:

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 1:14 pm

Wrong Wrong .the BOOK stats that
"Oh , Harry , it's you......good about Ron , isn't it?' she said blearly.
'I'm just so-so-so tired,' she yawned 'I was up till one o'clock making hats . they are disapearing like mad!' snip
" Great ' said Harry distractedly ;If he did not tell somebody soon, he would burst. 'listen , Hermione , I was just up in UMbridge's office and she touched my arm
It is clear from the passege that Hermione did not open the subject with Harry and since she didn't know about his scar hurting ( she couldn't know as it just happend) then she had no way of knowing that harry would open the subject by himself.
Your argument is based on a wrong assumption Hemione had no garanties that Harry would not have celebrated with Ron intead of talking to her , as the fact that his scar would hurt was not known befor.

Now what I wanted say here is not about hermione talking to harry about his scar hurting.What i say is that had harry not mentioned his scar hurting,hermione would have brought the up herself.I'm not saying that hermione knew harry's scar hurt or that dolores used to slice up harry's hand.A detention even though it may be just writing lines is boring none the less,what with your best friend having a party for being selected in the quidditch team and all it's worse!

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 1:19 pm

I think it's more of frustration/aggravation between Ron and Hermione, I guess I just don't buy the whole fighting because they love each other thing.

And in my opinion, the scene with the most tension between the kids was when Harry and Hermione were arguing about whether or not Sirius was in the DoM.

Just my thoughts...
They don't fight because they like each other , they argue ( difrent than fighting) because they don't know how to hide that they like each other , also because they care about each other's opinion.
As for Harry he was fighting with every body in this book is he in love with every body then.

stic

December 31st, 2004, 1:19 pm

noodle wrote: And why didn't she want to be rude to Ron? You're the one who believes Hermione loves Ron. You tell me why she didn't give any more about Ron and his party that night;
the perfect moment to dramatically improve that oh-so frustrating, completely progressionless state of their romance ;)

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 1:20 pm

And why didn't she want to be rude to Ron?
That didn't stop her from walking out of Harrys party in the past! *hint hint* :angel:
Can you post the quotes when hermione walked out on harry's party?

Corbin Dallas

December 31st, 2004, 1:23 pm

At that moment Hermione still had her long teeth as I remember. No wonder she was offended.
Sorry to interupt but just a note of textual correction, Hermione's teeth hads already been shrunk to normal at this time, the Incident with the curse occurred while Ron and Harry were estranged and this conversation you refer to Stic happens after the First Task when Harry and ron patched things up. Hermione tells us that she had Madam Pompfrey shrink them to the size Hermione wanted when she went to the Hospital Wing after Snape's rude comment...
...

stic

December 31st, 2004, 1:31 pm

CorbinDallas wrote: Sorry to interupt but just a note of textual correction, Hermione's teeth hads already been shrunk to normal at this time Still Hermione was offended, Ron's attitude really made her angry.Who can blame her? For years she was cursed with abnormally long front teeth and here we have Ron, putting all girls who are not physically attractive into a troll-category. He then also believed Hermione could not get a date with somebody else than with loser Neville.

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 1:32 pm

can anyone post the hermione walk out on harry's party thing

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 1:38 pm

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 1:39 pm

personally i feel if r/hr were to happen,it would have happened way before.But it hasn't.Because it is destined to not happen.

stic

December 31st, 2004, 1:40 pm

snoopy_bombay wrote: can anyone post the hermione walk out on harry's party thing It's probably a certain party from PoA where Hermione is in a very fragile state already and Ron can't give her a rest about scabbers. Ron makes her cry and she leaves the Common Room.

Great anti Hr/R moment. :tu:

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 1:41 pm

She also said that the film forshadows certain thing that only begins in the forth book. What are those things then?
When did she say that?

daz

December 31st, 2004, 1:42 pm

*de-lurking for a moment*

I have seen this arguement made quite often by some people who support H/Hr, but I have a question to ask those who believe it. If Hermione falling asleep during Ron's party is so bad what do you make of Hermione leaving a party in Harry's honor because a poster annoys her? A party, I might add, to celebrate a feat she helped him accomplish. How is one bad and the other not? Just wondering.

Ok, back to lurking, I was just wondering about this.

The reason why she left Harry party is because of the poster Fred and George put up in the common room. She was being wind up by Fred and George so she decided to leave. So it had nothing to do with Harry.

And this is Harry. These wont be his only shining moment. He is all ways doing amazing things. Ron does not.

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 1:44 pm

snoopy_bombay wrote: It's probably a certain party from PoA where Hermione is in a very fragile state already and Ron can't give her a rest about scabbers. Ron makes her cry and she leaves the Common Room.

Great anti Hr/R moment. :tu:
Is it that party?ok then let me tell those Herons that hermione thought it would probably be better to leave the party than cry throughout it and make harry miserable

Corbin Dallas

December 31st, 2004, 2:00 pm

CorbinDallas wrote: Still Hermione was offended, Ron's attitude really made her angry.Who can blame her? For years she was cursed with abnormally long front teeth and here we have Ron, putting all girls who are not physically attractive into a troll-category. He then also believed Hermione could not get a date with somebody else than with loser Neville.
let's see, the only person Hermione ever openly crushed on was Lockhart but in all the time Ron has known her she never really acted like a girly girl and when did Ron say that Hermione was a Troll, he used Eloise Midgeon as an example, not Hermione, Hermione decided Ron must be talking about her too when Ron never did. Has Ron ever insulted Hermione's appearence (really don't remember if somenone has the Text- Darynthe you seem to obsess on this you got any? Let's also note that it seems Ron wasn't even considering Hermione when he made the Troll remark because he was talking about Girls, which Ron doesn't even acknolledge until after the Fleur fiasco. So Hermione seems to be overreacting to Ron, her best friend, who seems to have opinions on girls that she doesn't know about, why would Hermione be that upset over Ron's shallowness now when it hasn't bothered her this much before, my guess Hormones :rotfl:
It's probably a certain party from PoA where Hermione is in a very fragile state already and Ron can't give her a rest about scabbers. Ron makes her cry and she leaves the Common Room.

Great anti Hr/R moment.
Ah yes, the cat/rat incident that was resolved by Hermione breaking down cryng into Ron's arms, telling him she was sorry about Scabbers and Ron using Crookshanks to verify Pig was an owl, also Hermione's crying over how miserable she was without the both of them to Hagrid and almost frantic that Ron was attacked by Sirius, seems even when they are fighting at their worst Hermione still cares deeply for Ron, even better R/Hr stuff :tu:

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 2:04 pm

Now what I wanted say here is not about hermione talking to harry about his scar hurting.What i say is that had harry not mentioned his scar hurting,hermione would have brought the up herself.I'm not saying that hermione knew harry's scar hurt or that dolores used to slice up harry's hand.A detention even though it may be just writing lines is boring none the less,what with your best friend having a party for being selected in the quidditch team and all it's worse!
Please refrain from stating what might have happened if so and so and so happend , this is the job of fanfiction .
Debates about canon should stick to what actually hapen not what they imagine as i can answer that had Ron told hermione that he didn't want her to leave sh would have stayed all night and sat and started snogging him till every body was bored and etc......

When did she say that?
Its a famaus interview but i don't have the sorce , please can someone help

Corbin Dallas

December 31st, 2004, 2:08 pm

http://www.quick-quote-quill.org/articles/2003/0302-newsround-mzimba.htm
CoS DVD Interview:
JKR and Steve Kloves
Interviewed By Newsround's Lizo
© Warner Home Video April 11, 2003
In this movie we've seen the kids develop from the first film, could you tell us about the relationship between Harry, Ron, and Hermione and how that is developing film by film?
JKR:
Well I think it is developing in the films as it does in the books, which is to say that they are, they're much stronger together than apart. They're much more aware, in the second film, of their particular strengths. So they're more effective, the children are able to do more complex things, for example the Polyjuice Potion. And also Chris in the second film has kind of foreshadowed what I don't do until the fourth book, which is that you get hints of certain feelings between the three of them, that belong to a sort of slightly more mature person.
here's Chris' interpretation that Jo is endorsing...
(On being asked whether the handshake at the end of the CoS movie was foreshadowing events to come with Ron and Hermione)
"It is foreshadowing, yeah. I just love the idea that the two of them, that there's an impending crush. And it's such a real thing for kids at that age. For instance, I asked Emma to hug Dan, and she said, 'No way,' and that was the day she was the most nervous being on the set. She was like, 'I am not going to hug him, no I'm not.' And I said, 'You've been petrified, this is one of your best friends, if not your best friend, you have to hug him,' I said, 'but you won't hug Ron, because that's where the tension is." -- From Q&A session with Chris Columbus at the CoS press junket
http://www.mugglenet.com/books/couples-ronhermione.shtml
...

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 2:13 pm

snoopy_bombay wrote: It's probably a certain party from PoA where Hermione is in a very fragile state already and Ron can't give her a rest about scabbers. Ron makes her cry and she leaves the Common Room.

Great anti Hr/R moment. :tu:
But Hermione should not care for several reasons
1- Ron mentions his rat not insult Hermione.
2- Ron is not the guest of honor neither is he the organizer.
3- Harry who is the guest of honor wanted her to join the party .
4- If Ron is always insulting why would Hermione cry after all she doesn't cry when Draco or Pansy insult her.
5- Why is she cocerned about Ron's opinion :huh:

EDT: some spelling corrections
AND to thank CD for his help with quotes

faiza

December 31st, 2004, 2:44 pm

But Hermione should not care for several reasons
1- Ron mentions his rat not insult Hermione.
2- Ron is not the guest of honor neither is he the organizer.
3- Harry who is the guest of honor wanted her to join the party .
4- If Ron is always insulting why would Hermione cry after all she doesn't cries when Draco or Pansy insult her.
5- Why is she cocerned about Ron's opinion :huh:

Hermione was under a lot of stress at the time. The comment about Scabbers sent her over the edge. She's hurt by Ron's comment because he is her friend. She doesn't care about what Malfoy and Parkinson say of her because they're slimy Slytherins, but Ron is her friend and therefore she cares about his opinion of her.

clkginny

December 31st, 2004, 2:50 pm

Hermione was under a lot of stress at the time. The comment about Scabbers sent her over the edge. She's hurt by Ron's comment because he is her friend. She doesn't care about what Malfoy and Parkinson say of her because they're slimy Slytherins, but Ron is her friend and therefore she cares about his opinion of her.
So, she left Harry's party because she is upset about Ron and his rat. This is more supportive than her staying at Ron's party even though she was exhausted and fell asleep?

Laufa

December 31st, 2004, 2:53 pm

Yes, Hermione was under alot of stress when she left Harry's party, and she was very tired when she fell asleep at Ron's party.

Honestly. She cares for both of them! Why do people, in order to prove that Hermione likes Harry, have to disprove scenes with Ron and vice versa? There are plenty of positive scenes for both ships! This isn't 'Who won't fall in love with whom', and (trying to) disprove one ship doesn't prove the other.

On the 'Does Hermione love Ron or Harry?' quote, IMO, the answer is obvious. She loves them both, because they are both her best friends.

On a side-note:
I'm leaving this forum, for at least 6 months :sad: I'll miss this place, but since I'm going to the USA for 6 months to study I don't think I'll have alot of HP-time. I'll be back before HBP, though :D

Love,
Eyrún

mrs_bombadil

December 31st, 2004, 3:00 pm

Laufa

December 31st, 2004, 3:05 pm

We'll miss you Laufa! Where in the states will you be?

I agree with you that Hermione's party behavior is only so probative. However, I can't resist itemizing her presence (or lack thereof) and enthusiasm in the following:

--PoA, she's so upset over Ron she leaves Harry's party
--GoF, she's not at Harry's party at ALL after his name is pulled from the goblet
--OotP, she leaves Harry's celebration after the Quibbler's release (a victory of her OWN as well) because of the annoying posters.

I don't understand how a valiant effort to stay at Ron's party is in any way a negative thing?!

Thank you :) At first, I'll be in Austin, Texas, but I might move around!

Those are really good points. Again, the faults of one ship are drawn completely into the limelight while the faults of the other seem to be ignored - or excused as stress, etc., while Heron can't do the same?
IMO, this argument gets you nowhere because she has shown the same behaviour towards Harry, too.

Love,
Eyrún

faiza

December 31st, 2004, 3:10 pm

So, she left Harry's party because she is upset about Ron and his rat. This is more supportive than her staying at Ron's party even though she was exhausted and fell asleep?

In third year she was using a time turner to get to all her classes and had twice as much homework then the other third years. She was probably more exhausted then at Ron's party. Plus her two best friends were mad at her. Can you blame her for being a bit emotional?

GoF, she's not at Harry's party at ALL after his name is pulled from the goblet

She knew he didn't put his name in the goblet, she saw his face. There wasn't much to celebrate. She had some thinking to do. Did Harry put his name in the GoF? If so, why didn't he tell? If not, who did? Besides, Ron probably stormed off and she most likely followed (she knew he was jealous); thus the two of them were probably (one of) the first in the common room. The party probably hadn't started yet.

OotP, she leaves Harry's celebration after the Quibbler's release (a victory of her OWN as well) because of the annoying posters.

Who says she was really annoyed? Maybe she couldn't bear staying in a room with all those Harry's without revealing how she really feels :eyebrows:

clkginny

December 31st, 2004, 3:15 pm

In third year she was using a time turner to get to all her classes and had twice as much homework then the other third years. She was probably more exhausted then at Ron's party. Plus her two best friends were mad at her. Can you blame her for being a bit emotional?

She knew he didn't put his name in the goblet, she saw his face. There wasn't much to celebrate. She had some thinking to do. Did Harry put his name in the GoF? If so, why didn't he tell? If not, who did? Besides, Ron probably stormed off and she most likely followed (she knew he was jealous); thus the two of them were probably (one of) the first in the common room. The party probably hadn't started yet.

Who says she was really annoyed? Maybe she couldn't bear staying in a room with all those Harry's without revealing how she really feels :eyebrows:
I wasn't blaming her for being emotional. I just have trouble seeing how she is being more supportive of one than of the other.

She generally has other things she would rather do (studying?) than watch the boys. She is usually supportive of them both, but she has left during important things, too. So, I don't see how an argument can be made for either ship on this subject.

DragonChamber7

December 31st, 2004, 3:19 pm

GoF, she's not at Harry's party at ALL after his name is pulled from the goblet

Yes, and even though I'm an R/Hr shipper, I do have to agree with a fair amount of people (of both ships) that the 'party' evidence really doesnt hold up for either ship. Cause Hermione (on a regular basis) would have loved to celebrated Ron's party fully, and she would have done the same with Harry. She's just a very busy girl...it doesnt mean she loves one more than the other.

Darynthe

December 31st, 2004, 3:36 pm

Hey -- they're your page numbers. You're the one who listed them, claiming they were ALL insults to Hermione's intelligence, values, opinions, and work ethic. You tell me where I went wrong! And please, do tell me what were the insults on the pages I listed where I couldn't find anything. I'm truly curious.

Ok, you saw that I had borrowed the list. I don't have time to go through the books and find the quotes myself. And somebody asked for examples of mistreatment and I went and posted this list exactly three minutes after the request. I didn't have time to go and check and post the actual quotes. It sufficed to me to trust judgement of the person who made the work. I still trust it.

I offer you this: I will go and check out the pages myself at some time and then post it here. I will owl you then for you check out and have the appropiate counter reply at that time.

Personally, I think Ron's constant remarks about Hermione -- positive, negative, and neutral -- are strong evidence of his consistent and extreme interest in her and her doings. I also think that Hermione's constant remarks about Ron -- positive, negative, and neutral -- are strong evidence of her consistent and, if not extreme, at least substantial, interest in him and his doings.

You think that even the neutral remarks are proof of extreme interest? :rotfl: :rotfl: Oooooook.....

I really cannot say anything about it execept that I don't agree with you. I think positive attention is positive, negative is negative and neutral is...ah...neutral. Duh! :rotfl:

What? You specifically SAID they were all insults!

Oh, if I did it wasn't a complete explanation, obviously. I also meant insulting attitudes. Let the correction stand for all it's worth.

I don't want to sound like Ron here, but I wish you would lighten up. Look at the overall tone and dialogue of JKR's books -- she likes to write that kind of stuff. Remember, JKR loves both Hermione and Ron, despite their strong tendency to sneer, ridicule, demean, make other people feel stupid, etc.

I can lighten up all you want, I can be the soul of the party, I can even become Heron right now, and my opinion wouldn't matter one bit to the great scheme of things. It is Hermione's opinion which matters and I repeat she said to Ron's face that she thinks that his being rude to her is a normal behavior!!! You think that she thinks that being rude to her as a rule as something positive, even attractive in a relationship?

I suppose the Klingon mating behaviors are the best of dating protocol these days.

Note to self: go on dates more often :rotfl:

If you don't like it, you should at least admit that Hermione is *just* as prone to it as Ron is. Let the two "abusive" characters have each other, and save Harry for a nicer girl! As for me, I see the love (I'm talking friendship here) behind it. I see the humorous tone that I'm afraid you often miss. I see the underlying sexual tension it masks (as Emma Watson so clearly understands -- they're afraid that they might like each other). Putting Hermione with a different guy -- whether it be Harry, Krum, Neville, or WHOMEVER -- isn't going to remove her tendency to argue, sneer, put people down, etc. In literature, bickerers get matched with bickerers -- that's how it works!

1) I don't miss the fun part, I love a good laugh! The only fanfic I read in fact, is the humor genre. :) But I definetely have gone deeper in many aspects of the HP literature, of its universe. Not only regarding shipping, I have a variety of threads on other aspects where I've made findings looking at the BIG PICTURE instead of only to what is on the surface.

Check for instance these:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=37971
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=39041

Doubleguessing forshadowing, people's attitudes, etc. That's what we are here for more than for stating the obvious. This thread would be long dead if it wasn't for Harmonians who have made very interesting pattern findings.
(I want to thank my shipmates for such insight and great intuition. I admire you immensely.)

2) Agree, Hermione is just as prone, if not more, to abuse Ron. But is this healthy? Is something that will guarantee happiness? Is this something that will make them be together for the rest of their lives? I seem to think that NO. They bring the worst of each other when they meet. Does Ron need someone who will tell him the worse things without blinking? We know he has a inferiority complex (at worse) and insecurity. He needs to achieve things to feel his worth. How somebody like Hermione be the best for making him sure of himself? To bring him to maturity? This is not assertive. If you wanted him to be happy you'd wish a different life partner for him.

And I dont' really think that the Good ship wants Ron and Hermione together because they are two abusive characters and deserve each other for this!!! I won't even go into that statement. Just take a look at what you imply: So a marriage who is abusive and they fight hitting each other physically should remain together? Should their kids stand that? I just don't agree with you and never will, even if indeed Ron ends up with Hermione and Harry with Ginny and the Giant Squid with Filch.

You're doing that bias thing again. Ron wasn't described as using any kind of tone either. If Ron had said "are you planning on eating or sleeping at all this year" I strongly suspect you would read that as an insulting attack on Hermione's work ethic and values. But when Harry does it, you take it that he's worried about her well being. HE'S TEASING HER -- that's why Ron laughs (sniggers), and that's why she "ignores" BOTH of them.

Yeah, yeah. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: /Darynthe sniggers at Angua, laughs at her face and snorts. All in the spirt of her liking Angua so much so as to make her statements sound completely ridiculous. /

:eyebrows:

But the actual argument you made was "Ron attacks Hermione umpteen dozen times and Harry never does (except once, which isn't personal and doesn't really count)". That was an untrue, misleading, and biased argument, and of course I countered it! And yes, it is a strong bias, because the difference between "never" and "only a few times" is all the difference in the world.

I will change it to the actual numbers in the spirit of making myself more exact if you want me to. Let us reach an agrement. What about 38 to 4 instead of always vs once? Maybe we should leave the actual numbers for when we have the planned research. :D

Shall I list some for you? What about the example I already gave you on OotP page 712? Don't you want to even look for them?

Sure why not. If you found more examples of Harry personal attacks to Hermione I may as much as change my mind in this regard. I am not entirely unreasonable.

No, I'm NOT claiming I can read JKR's mind and divine her intentions. But some things are obvious, and other things she's flat-out said. I'm positive she isn't meaning to portray Ron as "abusive," or "worlds apart" from Hermione and Harry, or only "OK." Honestly, I think J.K. Rowling would be angry if she happened to read some of the things you've said about her Ron. And I know Harry would be!

Well I woudln't be saying all this if Harry and Ron weren't fictional characters. I wouldn't be discussing their lives either!! :)

It's a little strange to see you saying that JKR disagrees with my posts! Are you JKR in disguise? If so, I would owe you an apology for misreading you so much. Write me private so I apology as I should. :D

And two, as I said in my previous post, one can like a character precisely because of his flaws and I like Ron because he is a complex and very well rounded character. A very original one. But I see clearly that he was never intended to be a partner for life for Hermione Granger. She and Harry have been changed into a duo in the last book at least. And to be prominently apart from Ron in the last three books. You must be aware of this because it's Harry and Hermione who have been key to the last three books instead of Ron and Hermione together.

Hermione and Harry were together in the resolution of PoA. Her intelligence of the workings of time and timeturner, plus her ability to come up with a plan to save the day were completely used then.

In book four Hermione teaches the Accio charm that saves Harry's life when facing Voldemort. SHe also stand by Harry when everybody else, including Ron turn his back on him. Isn't that writing her apart from the rest of the characters, including Ron, Neville and Ginny?

In book five, Hermione comes up with the Rita article, that changes half the Wizarding world mind about Harry and Voldie, has the Grawp adventour with Harry, comes up with the DA, saves Harry from being Crucio from Umbridge, tries to save him from the Sirius ploy and also stands by him in the DoM adventour.

Sigh. An overwhealming ammount of setting apart from the rest for Hermione, how can you say that Ron and she are in the same league regarding importance? It wasn't written like that even for the most superficial reader. Without Hermione, Harry would be long dead.

This is a change from book 1 and 2 where the whole 3 was important to the resolution of cases. Now Ron is at most loyal, but in none of these instances he says or does anything that changes the course of events one bit. Not in book 4 or 5 at least. We should be able to see the trend clearly by now?

I think that if JKR wanted the trio to remain as it once was, she would have included Ron in some way, as she did in book 1 and 2. But I think she has her own reasons.

I wasn't arguing against Ginny dying. I was talking about the high likelihood that Darynthe's stated near-"visceral" dislike of Ginny would interfere with his ability to detect and interpret foreshadowing of future H/G (if any indeed exists). Having a visceral dislike of Sirius would also, in my opinion, hamper your ability to successfully predict future occurences in the books (though I don't believe she's ever listed Sirius as one of her favorites, actually).

I was a girl last time I checked! :rotfl:

Listen, as I said, I've never actually taken a discussion over Ginny and Harry relationship. Maybe because I cannot really pinpoint my dislike of Ginny very clearly. So no use to say I am not impartial in this discusion: I've never taken up the discussion itself that I remember. But if you want me to, I will. I think I can make good points even with my "biased" opinion. :lol:

DragonChamber7

December 31st, 2004, 3:41 pm

I really cannot say anything about it execept that I don't agree with you. I think positive attention is positive, negative is negative and neutral is...ah...neutral. Duh!
To certain people...yes, but kids and teenagers tend to show off or hide their feelings towards people they like. Even give crude remarks...but it doesnt mean they dont like them (as crazy as it sounds.)

Darynthe

December 31st, 2004, 3:49 pm

Happy New Year everyone and a kiss to all!!!! See you next year!!!!!!! :D

faiza

December 31st, 2004, 3:52 pm

I wasn't blaming her for being emotional. I just have trouble seeing how she is being more supportive of one than of the other.

She generally has other things she would rather do (studying?) than watch the boys. She is usually supportive of them both, but she has left during important things, too. So, I don't see how an argument can be made for either ship on this subject.

I agree.

To certain people...yes, but kids and teenagers tend to show off or hide their feelings towards people they like. Even give crude remarks...but it doesnt mean they dont like them (as crazy as it sounds.)

Sometimes, but sometimes they're just saying exactly what they're thinking. Kids are known for telling the truth.

bob13

December 31st, 2004, 4:01 pm

i think Ron And Herminie will because in the books she hugs harry but doesn't ron. I also Think That remus and Tonks will because the way they act arounnd each other.

delemtri

December 31st, 2004, 4:16 pm

All right I did answer before that your assertions are at fault but since I wasn't clear enough let me rip your little piece of post apart, maybe then you get what I'm saying.

Yet again your attempt to "rip it apart" is based on gross misunderstandings of my post. You haven't addressed any of my main points. You have called it "little" which I suppose is some sort of insult.

To me it was probably created by fandom, yet I know that I did as I finished GoF asking whether H/Hr or R/Hr will happen so yes JKR did create this question for me since I was after I read GoF not in fandom nor did I read any interviews.

The important thing isn't really how many of the readers are asking the question, it's the way the question would be worded. For example, instead of "Who will fall in love with whom?" or, more accurately describing the content of this discussion, "Who is Hermione in love with?" it would be "I wonder if that stuff between x and y is going to turn into anything."

I admit that you could be right. Perhaps if Dumbledore takes Harry, Ron, and Hermione into his office sometime during the next two books, sits them down, and explains to them exactly how they feel about each other and why - then it will have been a mystery. This is the resolution that has accompanied all of the other textual mysteries, including the ones you referenced.

You used my examination of the confusion over clues to support the point that the shipping question is indeed a mystery. But at the end of all of the other mysteries in the series, not only is the question answered, but the confusion over what is a clue and what is a red herring is lifted *in the text* and the clues are explained. For example, we know why boomslang was stolen from Snape's office by a man whose name appeared to be Barty Crouch; we know why Winky had Harry's wand. Unless you expect the trio to go through the lists of H/H and R/H scenes and discuss which ones had which implications, no such "resolution" will accompany the beginning of a relationship.

Note also that (ETA: for the shipping "mystery") what you call a "resolution" is really the establishment of a new plot direction and the development of the characters involved, especially to - let me use another heuristic reader - somebody who has read all five books and not noticed any romantic tension between any characters (except Harry and Cho).

Next time you try to teach me something, you may try and stop to assume I have no idea what a Red-Herring or a Mystery is.

Oh, I never assumed that. I just assumed that I repeatedly hadn't been clear enough in my posts, which I guess I still haven't. Next time you try and "rip my post apart" ... heh.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 4:39 pm

I see Ron and Hermione as a cliche. Not a storybook cliche, but a "girls like guys that treat them badly" cliche. Think about the scenario: Ron and Hermione start fighting and next thing you know they're making out on the sofa and they don't know what they did without each other. That's primetime television romance. Personally, I don't know what's going to happen, but Rowling will have to work very hard to make that situation convincing. I would find a Ron/Hermione relationship highly unlikely, unless Rowling wants to turn it into a sitcom. I hope she opts for realism.

Disagree. The cliché would be if the Hero got the leading girl. A great example is King Arthur: he gets the female lead Guinever.

Also, how old will they all be? 16/17? I saw the Ron/Hermione thing happen in middle school a lot. Someone teases a girl and makes her cry. They argue insessantly. A week later they go out. Two weeks later they break up. I'm glad to say that for the most part, that stops happening. They're a little old for middle school behavior. I'd assume Hogwarts would be the same, but maybe wizards work differently. In High School, a Ron would never get a Hermione. A Hermione would find someone who respects her intelligence.

This is not high school. People need to remember this is a different situation entirely. By the time high schoolers want romance, they are usually used to the male/female interaction. Ron is behind on girls, as is Harry. Hermione is the one knowing what's going on. She gets frustrated with Harry for not knowing Cho and she gets frustrated with Ron for not understanding girls; for not understanding her.

Maybe it's not jealousy? Maybe they just feel that the other's relationship is flawed. If a friend of mine goes out with someone I feel isn't right for them, that's fine. That doesn't mean I'm jealous.

But a good friend is supportive. No matter what. That's what a friend does. Even if nothing's going to come out of it, you support them. Especially if they're your best friend.

As for Ron and Krum, I think that Ron just wanted Krum for himself. Not romantically, I don't mean that. I think he felt that if anyone should be a pal with his favorite quidditch player, it should be him, not his friend. It was a kind of slap in the face to him. Hermione, someone who doesn't even like quidditch, gets to hang out with Krum, and Ron gets to watch.

:huh: This, is a new theory. I've never heard it before. But it doesn't make sense to me. If anything, Ron should be excited that Hermione and Krum talk. He could ask to hang out with Krum. Hermione could introduce him to Krum, and he could get an autograph. The jealous theory holds water.

Exactly. Unless she pulled an all-nighter the night before, I doubt she would have fallen asleep if she truly liked Ron. Especially at a celebration. She didn't want to be rude, but she obviously did not want to be there.

No matter if she, "obviously didn't want to be there" she was there. She supported him. This is probably not shippy at all. But you all are downgrading how much she supports Ron in this scene. She's dead tired but she celebrates anyway. That's a very good, supporting friend. Don't downgrade Ron. I don't know why people do it. If only because he's the cannon ball, ready to be fired to sink Harmony.

Hypothetical situation 1: a friend asks me to go to a party; I'm dead tired, but in order to not be rude I go for a while. In the meantime I'm thinking of an out. After an hour or so, I let myself be overcome by tiredness and I tell the friend I need to leave or else I'll be there all night. There. I satisfied the friend while not looking rude.

You did. But Hermione obviously differs from you, or else she would've done the same. But she didn't.

Hypothetical situation 2: a girl that I am highly interested in is going to be at the party. I'm dead tired, but I really like her, and this is the perfect time outside of the usual class to talk to her. Tiredness is a non-issue. Trust me. I'll stay as long as needed.

Yes, but what I bolded is the difference. Hermione and Ron talk outside of class so much more than you let on. She's tired, she can't help it. She stays awake as long as she can. I agree that this is reinforcing that 5th year is hard. It's tedious, much like this argument that doesn't do anything for anyone's ship.

Why would she use all of the time/pages for something that has barely been alluded to? A lot of people see Ginny/Harry as a possibility, analyze it, and find that it could happen. I mean, they're opposite genders. Ginny used to like Harry. Sure, Harry, with enough effort, could "find out" that he secretely likes her. :huh: But do you see how that sounds? To me it's just that - a possibility. It's a "wouldn't it be cool if..." situation in which the only real argument is that Rowling could do it if she wanted to.

Certainly disagreed. Read some Chocolate-sided essays. There are plenty of reason why it could happen. And I don't know why people, once again, downgrade Ginny. She is an awesome character. She can handle any mood Harry's in, they have a lot in common, she always does what's best for him, and she's loyal enough to follow him to the DoM. Why would that be so bad for Harry?

It is more believable then the: I've-known-you-for-5-years-Hermione-and-I've-just-realized-I-LOVE-YOU!

Example, since you like using situations a lot:

My friend Tom has liked me for a while. I didn't know of this until a while ago. He had been harboring feelings for a while, as someone dated him. Now, then there's Theo. I've known him for a while, but I get to know him. I really, really find myself having a lot in common and seeing him for the great guy he is. It was much easier to fall for the guy that I'm meeting fresh. Because more-likely-than-not, since I already know everything about Tom that I could, it was hard to reform every single thing to be a romantic thought. I have never look at him that way before, and I couldn't.

Because ginny is still very distant to harry.On the other hand hermione is ever so close to harry that their relationship is on the brink of developing into love.

Bold, my point. Hermione and Harry are soooo close, that what they have could have turned into love, twenty times over. Ginny is still brought into the picture. She is still being known to Harry. Have you realized the difference in description between, "long flaming red hair" and "messy brown hair". That's a big difference, even in Harry's subconcious. Likewise, Harry could have fallen for Hermione, but he didn't. He still have as much, if not more, of a chance to fall for Ginny because he's only starting to know her.

What I don't understand about the Heron arguement of ron being left alone if h/hr happens,is that doesn't ron have one big happy family where he will never be left alone?And won't harry be left alone if r/hr happens?harry doesn't have a decent family to comfort him.

Because Ron likes Hermione. You get with Hermione, your friend gets upset, mad, depressed and he is not your best friend any longer. Likewise, if Harry would focus on Hermione, for dates and etc... then Ron is left off on his own. Which to me, I don't find likely. Because I don't see Harry ever being attracted or even dating Hermione. Not in a million years.**

His family isn't at school, mind you. And I think Ron is one of those people that would lose a friendship over a girl. Especially if Harry once again beats him and takes the thing Ron wants - Hermione.

Harry will not be left alone. That's why Ginny, Neville, and Luna became more known as characters. That's why, IMO, he will find so much in common with Ginny and a bond will form, and the one they have will grow stronger.

**People say Ron and Herimone are opposites, and Harry is more like Ron, so they two do not share all of the same characteristic. I think that Harry will choose the girl he will have the most fun with. And according to GoF, that is not Hermione.

FlyingPhoenix

December 31st, 2004, 4:45 pm

Yet again your attempt to "rip it apart" is based on gross misunderstandings of my post. You haven't addressed any of my main points. You have called it "little" which I suppose is some sort of insult.

It's not a misunderstanding, its your unability to see that I don't agree to your post from the very core. I don't know what kind of ideas you have how a not resolved mystery can be possible be disproven with saying there don't exist a mystery. How can someone say there exist or there don't exist a mystery if JKR didn't yet resolve it? Don't you realise that this theory by H/Hr shipper based on a futur event, only? I guess not.

And "little" isn't an insult, your post is for fact little.

For example, instead of "Who will fall in love with whom?" or, more accurately describing the content of this discussion, "Who is Hermione in love with?" it would be "I wonder if that stuff between x and y is going to turn into anything."

Tell that Morgoth or Lanifiel since this two asked that.

I admit that you could be right. Perhaps if Dumbledore takes Harry, Ron, and Hermione into his office sometime during the next two books, sits them down, and explains to them exactly how they feel about each other and why - then it will have been a mystery. This is the resolution that has accompanied all of the other textual mysteries, including the ones you referenced.

That is nonesense. If H/HR happens then we do know for fact that Harry was misleaded. I suppose you don't got enough scene ideas how this could actually work, but then again you are argueing against it I didn't expect then that you understand where this H/Hr shipper are comming from.
Dumbledore don't need to explain anything. Its already done if Harry sees a Ron snogging with Erin though he did think Ron had it for Hermione. Mystery resolved with one single moment.

delemtri

December 31st, 2004, 4:49 pm

It's not a misunderstanding, its your unability to see that I don't agree to your post from the very core. I don't know what kind of ideas you have how a not resolved mystery can be possible be disproven with saying there don't exist a mystery. How can someone say there exist or there don't exist a mystery if JKR didn't yet resolve it? Don't you realise that this theory by H/Hr shipper based on a futur event, only? I guess not.

I'm not trying to say anything can be disproven. I'm trying to say that this "mystery" is fundamentally different from the mysteries in the text that have clues and red herrings and suspects and answers. I've detailed the differences in all of my posts on this.

Tell that Morgoth or Lanifiel since this two asked that.

They're welcome to read this.

That is nonesense. If H/HR happens then we do know for fact that Harry was misleaded. I suppose you don't got enough scene ideas how this could actually work, but then again you are argueing against it I didn't expect then that you understand where this H/Hr shipper are comming from.
Dumbledore don't need to explain anything. Its already done if Harry sees a Ron snogging with Erin though he did think Ron had it for Hermione. Mystery resolved with one single moment.

By this logic the mystery of GOF would have been resolved by Moody turning into Barty Crouch and the book ending. In fact, I think this last quote of yours proves why this isn't a mystery: it *doesn't* need that spectacular resolution where all of the clues are explained.

green_ginevra

December 31st, 2004, 4:57 pm

Because ginny is still very distant to harry.On the other hand hermione is ever so close to harry that their relationship is on the brink of developing into love.
Since when?!?!? Yes, they're very close friends, but... I would really like to see what evidence you have to support that. And, I also have a question. Why does their close friendship absolutely HAVE to 'develop into love'? Why can't they just stay close friends? Just because they're close doesn't automatically mean that it will develop into love. There has been such thing as just staying friends.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 4:58 pm

She knew he didn't put his name in the goblet, she saw his face. There wasn't much to celebrate. She had some thinking to do. Did Harry put his name in the GoF? If so, why didn't he tell? If not, who did? Besides, Ron probably stormed off and she most likely followed (she knew he was jealous); thus the two of them were probably (one of) the first in the common room. The party probably hadn't started yet.

Well, if she knew that he didn't do it, and people would be badgering him about it, wouldn't it be nice of her to support him and say she belived him, and scold people to lay off? Nothing's ever stopped her before...

Who says she was really annoyed? Maybe she couldn't bear staying in a room with all those Harry's without revealing how she really feels :eyebrows:

:rotfl: You should be a comedian!

faiza

December 31st, 2004, 5:17 pm

Well, if she knew that he didn't do it, and people would be badgering him about it, wouldn't it be nice of her to support him and say she belived him, and scold people to lay off? Nothing's ever stopped her before...

Maybe she wasn't sure and had to think things trough. You know how Hermione loves to analyze things. And she, unlike Ron, came to the (right) conclusion: Harry did not put his name in the GoF.

:rotfl: You should be a comedian!

You think? :shrug: Maybe I will...:agree:
You're not the first one who's suggested this...I wonder why :huh:

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 5:20 pm

Thank you :) At first, I'll be in Austin, Texas, but I might move around!

Those are really good points. Again, the faults of one ship are drawn completely into the limelight while the faults of the other seem to be ignored - or excused as stress, etc., while Heron can't do the same?
IMO, this argument gets you nowhere because she has shown the same behaviour towards Harry, too.

Love,
Eyrún
You miss undrestood me , I am not saying that she leaves Harry's party because she doesn't care , I think that she cares about Harry but her emotional wellbeing is dependent on Ron's approval this is why she can't stay if Ron is not happy and this is also why she will stay till she drop to make Ron know she is there for him
with Harry she still cares but

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 5:20 pm

Since when?!?!? Yes, they're very close friends, but... I would really like to see what evidence you have to support such a bold claim.

you call that a bold claim?Ginny was a bigger part of COS and then she just disappeared.She din't reappear full fledged till OOTP.Here too she hasn't stolen the spotlight.She obviously has a long way to go before she becomes a very good friend of harry's maybe as close as ron and hermione.

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 5:22 pm

Krumpet

December 31st, 2004, 5:23 pm

Sure why not. If you found more examples of Harry personal attacks to Hermione I may as much as change my mind in this regard. I am not entirely unreasonable.

Okay I just happened to be rereading GoF right now, and just in the section of the book I read last night I found three to four insults from Harry to Hermione, (it depends on what to consider an insult, I'm going by the degree of sensetivey in your orginal post). So here they are (just one section of GoF)…

GoF US Hardback Chap 18 page 297.

[Hermione] "You just weren't concentrating properly—"

"I wonder why that was," Harry said darkly.

Emphasis mine. Not the most respectful tone. Moreover his "I wonder why" implies Hermione should have already known, a subtle attack on her intelligence perhaps?

Chapter 19, page 321
"Hermione, when are you going to give up on this spew stuff?"

Emphasis mine. With no Ron around to say it for him he also calls the club Hermione feels strong about, "spew". Which is of course comparing something that is very important to her to vomit.

Chapter 20, 338

"Hermione," Harry said, though gritted teeth, "will you shut up for bit, please? I'm trying to concentrate."

I don't feel I need to emphasis any thing in this. Hermione was just trying to help him and he tells her to "shut up".

GoF Chapter 21, page 383
"Lets hope they don't look to closely at Wink," said Harry.

Hey if Ron can't disagree with Hermione with out it being an insult turn about should be fair play, so Harry can't either. :p

A strong friendship can with stand some teasing though. I don't think it would be normal for a bunch of kids to hang out and all get along all the time. Harry and Hermione's friendship also includes some insults, jibes, and the occasional taunt. Does this mean their not romantically compatible… NO! (What makes them romantically incompatible is the lack of physical attraction, Hermione's tenancy to nag paired with Harry's tendency's to avoid conflict, etc, etc, etc…;) ) It is okay for fourteen and fifteen year olds to act immature. Ron and Hermione fling insults at each other on a more regular bais then H/H; but their insults almost never carry any real venom, and the other person is rarely offend by them. (One of the most notable expections is when Ron compares Hermione to his mother; it's amazing she seems to react more dramatically to that "insult" then to most; perhaps she hates the idea that Ron thinking of her as a strictly platonic girl in his life…) In all it's not the "insults" that you have to look at, it the relationship the two people seem to enjoy!

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 5:27 pm

you call that a bold claim?Ginny was a bigger part of COS and then she just disappeared.She din't reappear full fledged till OOTP.Here too she hasn't stolen the spotlight.She obviously has a long way to go before she becomes a very good friend of harry's maybe as close as ron and hermione.

Yes but that's what you've gotta ask. If that was the end of her role why not just leave her in the shadows or keep her around as a distant friend? JK has started to bring her back and she's already told us we're gonna see even more of her in HBP. If she wasn't gonna play an important role again she would be here now, and if that role is only gonna be friendship she could have been around from cos. If Jk wants to do a kind of love at first sight relationship (that he gets to know her and straight falls in love with watch he finds) then she's set herself up perfectly.

green_ginevra

December 31st, 2004, 5:27 pm

you call that a bold claim?Ginny was a bigger part of COS and then she just disappeared.She din't reappear full fledged till OOTP.Here too she hasn't stolen the spotlight.She obviously has a long way to go before she becomes a very good friend of harry's maybe as close as ron and hermione.
Yes, actually I do... considering you didn't even add evidence to support it. What are you trying to say about stealing the spotlight? Does Hermione 'steal the spotlight' of every single book? Nope, sorry, that would be... erm... what's his name... Harry. I don't understand why she has to 'be in the spotlight' to become a close friend. Yes, she would have to spend more time with Harry, but is 'spotlight' really necessary for developing a friendship? I think not.

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 5:30 pm

Sure why not. If you found more examples of Harry personal attacks to Hermione I may as much as change my mind in this regard. I am not entirely unreasonable.

Also, adding to the stuff kumpet said, Harry often thinks things and disagrees with Hermione in though yet doesn't voice his ideas, not because he wants to spare her feelings (well not always) but often cause he can't be bothered to argue and he knows Ron'll do it for him.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 5:32 pm

Maybe she wasn't sure and had to think things trough. You know how Hermione loves to analyze things. And she, unlike Ron, came to the (right) conclusion: Harry did not put his name in the GoF.

Well, Ron is used to Harry getting the limelight. Which is another reason why I don't think Harry will get Hermione... he gets everything else.

You think? :shrug: Maybe I will...:agree:
You're not the first one who's suggested this...I wonder why :huh:

I apologize for laughing at you being serious about Hermione actually liking Harry... :angel:

snoopy_bombay

December 31st, 2004, 5:36 pm

Yes, actually I do... considering you didn't even add evidence to support it. What are you trying to say about stealing the spotlight? Does Hermione 'steal the spotlight' of every single book? Nope, sorry, that would be... erm... what's his name... Harry. I don't understand why she has to 'be in the spotlight' to become a close friend. Yes, she would have to spend more time with Harry, but is 'spotlight' really necessary for developing a friendship? I think not.
Now exactly what evidence do you need?And by stealing the spotlight i mean doing something unique to distinguish yourself from the others.Like a good performance neville put up in the DOM.Like hermione always does.In this case you do need a bit of spotlight.Ginny needs to do something that will make harry respect her.I'm not saying ginny will never get close to harry.All I want to point out is that ginny will never get as close to harry as hermione does.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 5:39 pm

Yes but that's what you've gotta ask. If that was the end of her role why not just leave her in the shadows or keep her around as a distant friend? JK has started to bring her back and she's already told us we're gonna see even more of her in HBP. If she wasn't gonna play an important role again she would be here now, and if that role is only gonna be friendship she could have been around from cos. If Jk wants to do a kind of love at first sight relationship (that he gets to know her and straight falls in love with watch he finds) then she's set herself up perfectly.

Now thatm makes sense. We shouldn't be asking why JKR didn't keep her around for the next couple books.

We should be asking: Why did JKR bring her closer to the group when 1) Harry is getting over Cho, 2) both of them are single and 3) Harry can't always talk to Ron and Hermione.

JKR has a plan, and who better for Harry to fall in love with? People say he needs Hermione to be there for him, and I must disagree. Hermione is his mentor, his guidence conselor almost. He needs someone to have fun with. And he doesn't have fun with Hermione, unless Ron's there. The only two people he shares amused looks with are: Ron and Ginny.

Interesting?

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 5:42 pm

The only two people he shares amused looks with are: Ron and Ginny.

Exactly, I mean has Harry ever been able to laugh and joke with Hermione without Ron being there? When Harry fell out with Ron he wasn't very happy spending so much extra time with Hermione, surely that foretells something if their relationship was to happen.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 5:42 pm

Now exactly what evidence do you need?And by stealing the spotlight i mean doing something unique to distinguish yourself from the others.Like a good performance neville put up in the DOM.Like hermione always does.In this case you do need a bit of spotlight.Ginny needs to do something that will make harry respect her.I'm not saying ginny will never get close to harry.All I want to point out is that ginny will never get as close to harry as hermione does.

Because Hermione is Harry's conscious. And you don't date your conscious. You date your girlfriend. I don't date my boyfriend for his moral lessons he teaches me. I date him because he's fun to be around, and he helps me through hard times, and lets me have fun with him. Harry doesn't need someone making him do his homework. Not right now. He needs a companion he can have fun with. Not a guidence counselor.

Well, seeing as Ginny can really put Harry in his place, that's pretty different. But in HBP you'll definitely see something more outgoing on Ginny's part. We will see her more - says JKR.

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 5:45 pm

All I want to point out is that ginny will never get as close to harry as hermione does.

That's the point i'm trying to make, you can't say that, you don't know. We don't what Ginny personallity really is yet and we don't know how Harry will react to it yet. In two years he could get very close to her.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 5:46 pm

Exactly, I mean has Harry ever been able to laugh and joke with Hermione without Ron being there? When Harry fell out with Ron he wasn't very happy spending so much extra time with Hermione, surely that foretells something if their relationship was to happen.

Yes, and they say people change. But the meat of the bone is: Ron is the one that makes Hermione lighten up. So how would she do that with Harry, if her influence is Ron?

Rachel Gibbons

December 31st, 2004, 5:47 pm

I would just like to say, H/Hr is my ship and I urge anyone who is undecided to look at the essays in Madam Puddifoots (mugglenet) as they offer the proof. I am surprised that not more people have posted on this thread about H/Hr, and I would love to hear from anyone who agrees or disagrees with my ship. Time will obviously tell and as JKRowling has said there is to be 'a little romance' in Harrys life - I'm betting it concerns Hermione as she means so much to him, and him to her.

Send me an owl, or e-mail anytime.
H/Hr are meant to be together!
Rach G
XXXX

faiza

December 31st, 2004, 5:47 pm

Well, Ron is used to Harry getting the limelight. Which is another reason why I don't think Harry will get Hermione... he gets everything else.

Really? What does Harry get? Besides cofrontations with Voldemort nearly every year, several death experience every month, constant scrutinization by the public, detention for no good reason, a great holiday in Surrey (lovely city by the way),...

I apologize for laughing at you being serious about Hermione actually liking Harry... :angel:

Apology accepted, though really I wasn't being totally serious (about that particular scene).
:sigh: People never get when I'm being serious and when I'm joking...I should work on that if I want to be a comedian...But like with JK, you'll know when I'm joking in time...Right?

Well, seeing as Ginny can really put Harry in his place, that's pretty different. But in HBP you'll definitely see something more outgoing on Ginny's part. We will see her more - says JKR.

Did she say that? I thought she said that about OotP.

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 5:52 pm

Really? What does Harry get? Besides cofrontations with Voldemort nearly every year, several death experience every month, constant scrutinization by the public, detention for no good reason, a great holiday in Surrey (lovely city by the way),...

You really can't ask this question, we know what Ron is talking about. Harry is famous, which with his family is something he longs for, Harry's sgood at quidditch, Harry has them as friends... I don't need to go on. He's the golden boy, we know Harry doesn't want these things but he has them and people can't help but envy them. We know Ron likes Hermione, if Harry took the girl Ron loved... it wouldn't work.

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 5:53 pm

That's the point i'm trying to make, you can't say that, you don't know. We don't what Ginny personallity really is yet and we don't know how Harry will react to it yet. In two years he could get very close to her.

He certainly could. He most likely will, IMO. Because of what little we know, she is an awesome character. :tu:

Nymph_Tonks

December 31st, 2004, 5:57 pm

hemione cant be with ron cuz shes way better than him! if they're together, it wont be good for his self-esteem cuz she'll be earning more than him!!!! :eyebrows:

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 5:58 pm

Really? What does Harry get? Besides cofrontations with Voldemort nearly every year, several death experience every month, constant scrutinization by the public, detention for no good reason, a great holiday in Surrey (lovely city by the way),...

He gets attention, he's famous and Ron always has someone in front of him. His brother's have already done the things he wants to do. And he's upset about that. Imagine if the time comes when Hermione likes Harry and Ron gets shot down. JKR said the trio was best together, so why would she break it apart like that? :huh:

Apology accepted, though really I wasn't being totally serious (about that particular scene).
:sigh: People never get when I'm being serious and when I'm joking...I should work on that if I want to be a comedian...But like with JK, you'll know when I'm joking in time...Right?

:rotfl: If we continue talking. And debating. We're all HP fans anyway. :)

Did she say that? I thought she said that about OotP.

She will be a big part of the next two books. :rotfl: I think so. I know for a fact she'll be big in HBP... maybe not B7 but definitely HBP. :p

delemtri

December 31st, 2004, 5:58 pm

hemione cant be with ron cuz shes way better than him! if they're together, it wont be good for his self-esteem cuz she'll be earning more than him!!!! :eyebrows:

You may think she's way better than him; the trio and JKR disagree.

IceKat55

December 31st, 2004, 5:58 pm

Now exactly what evidence do you need?And by stealing the spotlight i mean doing something unique to distinguish yourself from the others.Like a good performance neville put up in the DOM.Like hermione always does.In this case you do need a bit of spotlight.Ginny needs to do something that will make harry respect her.I'm not saying ginny will never get close to harry.All I want to point out is that ginny will never get as close to harry as hermione does.
Rowling chose to give Ginny two very big and important moments in OotP. In both instances, we get detailed information on how Harry feels much better. His heart is lightened, he feels more hopeful...quite significant, IMO.

Hermione has gotten much more face-time in Harry's life up 'til now, that is not in dispute. But to say that Ginny will "never get as close to Harry as Hermione" is nothing more than (IMO, wild) speculation. Rowling brought Ginny forward for a reason, not to mention the possibility of Luna. Hermione is not the end-all-be-all-female in Harry's life, and I'm not sure she ever would be, romantically speaking. She's a great friend. So is Ron. They are his two best friends, and I have no doubt that those will be life-long relationships between all of them. But a romantic relationship is much different than a best friend relationship. Should Ginny take the role of Harry's LI, she will become equally important to Harry, in a very different way than Hermione or Ron. :)

faiza

December 31st, 2004, 6:00 pm

You really can't ask this question

And yet I did :p

we know what Ron is talking about. Harry is famous, which with his family is something he longs for, Harry's sgood at quidditch, Harry has them as friends... I don't need to go on. He's the golden boy, we know Harry doesn't want these things but he has them and people can't help but envy them. We know Ron likes Hermione, if Harry took the girl Ron loved... it wouldn't work.

After the whole "Weasley is our king" thing, everyone at Hogwarts knows Ron, Ron has proved that he's also good at Quidditch (and Harry wasn't even allowed to play for most of OoTP), Ron has Harry as a friend. People don't envy Harry, only Ron does. People hate/love/pity/... Harry depending on what the Daily Prophet reports. And are we even sure Ron loves Hermione?

MPPMarauderGirl

December 31st, 2004, 6:01 pm

hemione cant be with ron cuz shes way better than him! if they're together, it wont be good for his self-esteem cuz she'll be earning more than him!!!! :eyebrows:

This is the exact thing people keep saying. And new flash: love does not revovle around money. Lasting love never does and never should. My brother keeps a girlfriend by buying her things - because she's highly material. But my boyfriend pleases me by just being my boyfriend. And our relationship is strong.

Could you all please stop downgrading Ron? Is that too much to ask for? We don't dislike Harry, us Herons. Maybe that's because we feel so secure that he won't ever like Hermione... eh? :eyebrows:

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 6:01 pm

Now thatm makes sense. We shouldn't be asking why JKR didn't keep her around for the next couple books.

We should be asking: Why did JKR bring her closer to the group when 1) Harry is getting over Cho, 2) both of them are single and 3) Harry can't always talk to Ron and Hermione.

JKR has a plan, and who better for Harry to fall in love with? People say he needs Hermione to be there for him, and I must disagree. Hermione is his mentor, his guidence conselor almost. He needs someone to have fun with. And he doesn't have fun with Hermione, unless Ron's there. The only two people he shares amused looks with are: Ron and Ginny.

Interesting?

Yes I agree. Theres another thing that puts Ginny ahead of Luna. Do you really think Harry'd be able to share amused looks with Luna? No I dont think so because shes doesnt pay full attention very often and is pretty vague. Harry needs someone to laugh with. Yes Hermione is very close to him and helps him out. But Ginny can help Harry too, she'll be able too. Maybe not with his homework but Ginny can help him on other ways. Hermione will always be there to help Harry. Just because they aren't in love doesnt mean she can't still help guide him where he needs it. Ginny and Hermione are different people and can both bring different thing to Harry. However Ginny I think will be the one there for him romantically, the one who will make him happy.

delemtri

December 31st, 2004, 6:01 pm

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 6:02 pm

hemione cant be with ron cuz shes way better than him! if they're together, it wont be good for his self-esteem cuz she'll be earning more than him!!!!

You have no idea how much I want to feed you to the giant purple dinosaur right now.

daz

December 31st, 2004, 6:05 pm

You may think she's way better than him; the trio and JKR disagree.

Again Harry is her favorite. She has said so. She said something along the lines of i love him because i choose to write the books about Harry. She likes other charecters but Harry is number 1. And Hermione seems to respect Harry more than Ron.

delemtri

December 31st, 2004, 6:06 pm

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 6:07 pm

After the whole "Weasley is our king" thing, everyone at Hogwarts knows Ron, Ron has proved that he's also good at Quidditch (and Harry wasn't even allowed to play for most of OoTP), Ron has Harry as a friend. People don't envy Harry, only Ron does. People hate/love/pity/... Harry depending on what the Daily Prophet reports. And are we even sure Ron loves Hermione?

Theres a lot that points to the fact that at least his feelings are there.
-He's jealous of Krum.
-He buys her perfume
-The way he argues so much with her... there's more but they been put threw the forum so many times by now you problem have the imprinted on your brain.

Anyway, we know Ron still envies Harry, so Ron won that time, Harry will always be a better quidditch player then him. Ron has started to get somethings for himself in OotP but it's been written law till then that he's always been second to Harry, in power, in fame... in everything.

clkginny

December 31st, 2004, 6:08 pm

daz

December 31st, 2004, 6:09 pm

Originally Posted by dark_kneazle
That's the point i'm trying to make, you can't say that, you don't know. We don't what Ginny personallity really is yet and we don't know how Harry will react to it yet. In two years he could get very close to her

We do know we are at boook 6.

We do know this aint romance books.

We do know Ginny was important in book 2 and then faded.

We know she reappeared in Book 5

But we dont know if she will vanish again. It could happen. It has happend before.

We do know book 6 wont be the get to know Ginny book.

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 6:09 pm

hemione cant be with ron cuz shes way better than him! if they're together, it wont be good for his self-esteem cuz she'll be earning more than him!!!! :eyebrows:

ok..umm...that is utter nonsense. :huh:

Hermione won't care what so ever how much money Ron has. Does she seem that type of girl to you? Anyway when Ron grows up( hopefully that will happen) whose to say he wont make a good amount of money. Besides once they learn they dont have compete with eachother all the time that won't matter.

faiza

December 31st, 2004, 6:11 pm

We are sure not only that Ron loves Hermione, but that he is a *great* friend to Harry as well.

Well, I seriously doubt that Ron's in love with Hermione and I never said he's not a great friend.

He gets attention, he's famous and Ron always has someone in front of him. His brother's have already done the things he wants to do. And he's upset about that. Imagine if the time comes when Hermione likes Harry and Ron gets shot down. JKR said the trio was best together, so why would she break it apart like that?

If Ron gets over his crush, he won't have to get shot down. And if he does get shot down, there's always Luna to comfort him :eyebrows:

She will be a big part of the next two books. I think so. I know for a fact she'll be big in HBP... maybe not B7 but definitely HBP.

Okay...If you say so, who am I to question you? :)

iptaycat

December 31st, 2004, 6:15 pm

So any of you R/H peoples, i cant read back through all this stuff not enought time left in my break from school, so here is my question. What would JKR accomplish in a R/H ship?

AvadaKedavra

December 31st, 2004, 6:16 pm

Stic

You agree that except for the infamous 3 GoF moments nothing in the books until this point showed you any further sign of R/Hr liking each other.

So the infamous 3 GoF moments alone gave you the impression of R/Hr until the end of Ron's making the team party in OotP. Anything else until that point didn't show you "any further signs" of R/Hr liking each other.

Sorry, I didn't explain myself clearly enough. Yes, there have been signs of R/Hr post-Yule Ball: there are the Hermione blushes, the instance where she avoids Ron's eyes, the two "Hate Fleur" instances, (possibly the instance where she sabotages Ron's success with Padma), the broken Krum-Figurine, etc, etc (do you want all of them?). However, it is like a game of "hit and miss", wonderfully orchestrated by JKR. While it is *clear* as daylight for us, the readers, Ron often doesn't see what we see and Hermione often doesn't see what we see. The last direct confrontation (on this particular front) was at the Yule Ball. Since then, neither has showed further signs of liking each other TO THE OTHER PERSON.

If we see it from Ron's point of view, he is clueless about Hermione. He didn't see the 'looking furious' and the scowl. If we see it from Hermione's point of view, she (after 10 months of non-action from Ron), is clueless about his behaviour. Was it "protective big-brother"? Or was it "spoilt, bitter brat"? Or was it "jealous, likes me"?

So the infamous 3 GoF moments alone gave you the impression of R/Hr until the end of Ron's making the team party in OotP. Anything else until that point didn't show you "any further signs" of R/Hr liking each other.

I hope the above explains my viewpoint more sufficiently. There are clues post Yule-Ball, but I'm trying to see it from the character's point of view.

If only 3 moments from book 4 which all have sufficient back-doors gave you the impression of R/Hr, I strongly suggest a mystery alert.

Thanks for the kind offer, but I think I'll decline. I'm well researched on GOF, and I daresay that there's more than 3 moments.

Jo is a known tricker and if we can find significant blanks in the only 3 R/Hr "hints" from mid GoF until the end of OotP, we certainly should attempt to fill them in!

What's the blank in the "scowl" at the end of the book? What's the blank where she avoids Ron's eyes?

Let me give you a blank of my own:

-Fleur arrives at Hogwarts. Hermione immediately takes a dislike to her because she criticises Hogwarts.
-Ron and Hermione have 2 blazing rows about Ron's superficiality. Hermione, for some reason, isn't best pleased with it, and dislikes Ron going for beautiful women, instead of girls with personality.
-Hermione finds out Ron asked Fleur to the ball and failed (and is pleased about it)
...............BLANK............................
-Hermione sees Fleur (in the same passage in which we are reminded of Ron's failure with Fleur) and dislikes her for a NEW reason now: because she is "vain".

What's the blank? You tell me.

Jo is a known tricker and if we can find significant blanks in the only 3 R/Hr "hints" from mid GoF until the end of OotP, we certainly should attempt to fill them in!

Problem is: I don't think this is supposed to be a mystery. Her "I don't believe" quote only goes to deepen my convinction that we're reading too deeply. Ever see Daveydee's avatar? It's one of the finest I've seen. :p

Signing out,

Avada

faiza

December 31st, 2004, 6:16 pm

Theres a lot that points to the fact that at least his feelings are there.
-He's jealous of Krum.
-He buys her perfume
-The way he argues so much with her... there's more but they been put threw the forum so many times by now you problem have the imprinted on your brain.

Anyway, we know Ron still envies Harry, so Ron won that time, Harry will always be a better quidditch player then him. Ron has started to get somethings for himself in OotP but it's been written law till then that he's always been second to Harry, in power, in fame... in everything.

I agree that Ron has a crush on Hermione, but love? I don't think so...
When Harry was having the debate with himself over the whole prefect thing, he himself came to the conclusion that he's not better then Ron.

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 6:16 pm

A strong friendship can with stand some teasing though. I don't think it would be normal for a bunch of kids to hang out and all get along all the time. Harry and Hermione's friendship also includes some insults, jibes, and the occasional taunt. Does this mean their not romantically compatible… NO! (What makes them romantically incompatible is the lack of physical attraction, Hermione's tenancy to nag paired with Harry's tendency's to avoid conflict, etc, etc, etc…;) ) It is okay for fourteen and fifteen year olds to act immature. Ron and Hermione fling insults at each other on a more regular bais then H/H; but they insults almost never carry any reall venom, and the other person is rarely offend by them. (One of the most notable expections is when Ron compares Hermione to his mother; it's amazing she seems to react more dramatically to that "insult" then to most; perhaps she hates the idea that Ron thinking of her as a strictly platonic girl in his life…) In all it's not the "insults" that you have to look at, it the relationship the two people seem to enjoy!
I agree with every thing you say but I would like to stress that IMHO only a very (*******) would insult some one by telling them that they are like his mother , and only a very (********) girl would take this as an insult. :evil:
Leaving us with , Why then was Hermione not pleased by this could it be that she prfares that Ron would think of her as his girlfriend not his mother :eyebrows: :love:
After all we were never told or shown that Hermione hate Mrs Weasly and when suirs said she was like her she didn't get upset.
But I :rotfl: would like to give Hermione comfert after all they say Boys marry like their mothers

IceKat55

December 31st, 2004, 6:17 pm

Again Harry is her favorite. She has said so. She said something along the lines of i love him because i choose to write the books about Harry. She likes other charecters but Harry is number 1. And Hermione seems to respect Harry more than Ron.
Sorry, but what does this have to do with anything? I'd wager to say that Rowling likely loves all of her characters. Even the nasty ones. They are her creations. And considering that she loves all of the members of the Trio...one girl to two boys...why would that make her choose put Hermione with Harry over Ron, or vice versa? :huh: If, in her intention, Hermione is not the Love Interest for Harry, then there's really not much one can do about it.

She's writing a story centered around Harry, but there are so many more elements than simply "his story" involved. The R/Hr pending romance is one of many side-stories that does affect Harry. Sirius', Lupin's and even Wormtail's relationships with Harry's parents is another example of a side-story that affects Harry. The Weasley family's interactions/money problems, etc. Hagrid's relationship with his brother. And so many others. These all tie in together to affect Harry's story as a whole. But to say that Hermione will end up with Harry 'because it's Harry's story and Rowling likes Harry first and foremost' is, IMO, rather silly and somewhat narrow-minded, forgive me for saying.

She's also said that Ginny is one of her faves...whatta you make of that? :eyebrows:

Miss ERB

December 31st, 2004, 6:18 pm

We do know we are at boook 6.

We do know this aint romance books.

We do know Ginny was important in book 2 and then faded.

We know she reappeared in Book 5

But we dont know if she will vanish again. It could happen. It has happend before.

We do know book 6 wont be the get to know Ginny book.

ok....yes we know they are not romance books. However, there are romance in the books. And JK said so herself answering a question regarding Harry's Love life. She said "Whats life without a little romance"

Yes Ginny was important to the Plot in book 2 and I can sort of see why she had her lay low for book's 3 and 4. But JK did choose to have her appear as a bigger part in book 5 and she wansn't so much as important to the plot this time. So it wouldn't make sense to push her back into the shadows, it would only make sense to build up Ginny's character even more.

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 6:19 pm

Before Ginny can get romantically involved with Harry there would have to be a resolution of the fact she's dating Dean. Why would JK put that in at the end of the book if she is setting things up so that Harry and Ginny will date? That seems contrary to the purpose some of you see in Ginny's OoTP blossoming.

When I read that I really did think Ginny was just joking, trying to wind Ron up. Ron had just done the glance at Harry thing and before he could think too much into that Ginny placed the dean remark so that the whole carrige was in disarray. To me it could be that she said that to distract everyones attention from something very shippy Ron just did. Also, what right does he have to meddle in her relationships, she has the right to mess with him.

Why would she start a relationship with Dean? She hasn't appeared close to him and neither odf them mentioned even knowing each other. Yet I guess considering these, what she said could still be true. Then, I don't feel to threatened by it, we've seen that she's quite aloof with rellationships with the exzample of Micheal. I can't seeing it lasting too long.

But we dont know if she will vanish again. It could happen. It has happend before.

We do know book 6 wont be the get to know Ginny book.

...expect that I think it will. Ron and Hermione are prefects, they'll be off doing prefect duties and HArry will be left in the common room. Who will he talk to, a bit to Neville maybe, and then I can't see much other choice then Ginny.

The only good player HArry saw on the new gryffindore team was Ginny and she wasn't playing her own position. And in HBP, what two positions are free? Chasers, what Ginny plays, what a coincidence.

We've seen twice in OotP that when HArry's with Ginny he can talk with her, we've seen even more that he can laugh with her. In the new book he's gonna spend time with her, from what we've seen of the pair so far I think they'll be compatible.

daz

December 31st, 2004, 6:20 pm

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 6:23 pm

I agree that Ron has a crush on Hermione, but love? I don't think so...
When Harry was having the debate with himself over the whole prefect thing, he himself came to the conclusion that he's not better then Ron.

He knows that but Ron? You have to be really vain anyway to consider yourself better then your friends but still, they'll be times when Ron feels low and because HArry his friends he'd compare their achievements. Where, would he come to HArry when he's doing the judging?

daz

December 31st, 2004, 6:23 pm

When I read that I really did think Ginny was just joking, trying to wind Ron up. Ron had just done the glance at Harry thing and before he could think too much into that Ginny placed the dean remark so that the whole carrige was in disarray. To me it could be that she said that to distract everyones attention from something very shippy Ron just did. Also, what right does he have to meddle in her relationships, she has the right to mess with him.

Why would she start a relationship with Dean? She hasn't appeared close to him and neither odf them mentioned even knowing each other. Yet I guess considering these, what she said could still be true. Then, I don't feel to threatened by it, we've seen that she's quite aloof with rellationships with the exzample of Micheal. I can't seeing it lasting too long.

...expect that I think it will. Ron and Hermione are prefects, they'll be off doing prefect duties and HArry will be left in the common room. Who will he talk to, a bit to Neville maybe, and then I can't see much other choice then Ginny.

The only good player HArry saw on the new gryffindore team was Ginny and she wasn't playing her own position. And in HBP, what two positions are free? Chasers, what Ginny plays, what a coincidence.

We've seen twice in OotP that when HArry's with Ginny he can talk with her, we've seen even more that he can laugh with her. In the new book he's gonna spend time with her, from what we've seen of the pair so far I think they'll be compatible.

First we dont know Ron will be Prefect again. And Hermione and Ron where Prefect in OOTP and Harry did not sit in the common room. So why would he do it in HBP.

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 6:24 pm

I was replying to a post that JKR loves them all the same. She does not. Harry is her favorite. As she said She choose to write about Harry not Ron. Not Hermione. Not Dumbledore. Not Snape. Its Harry story.

Oh course she likes HArry best, he's her main charector, he's her Mary sue, she didn't need to say this for us to know it. However, why should JK's favourite dictate who Hermione goes for?

clkginny

December 31st, 2004, 6:25 pm

I was replying to a post that JKR loves them all the same. She does not. Harry is her favorite. As she said She choose to write about Harry not Ron. Not Hermione. Not Dumbledore. Not Snape. Its Harry story.

And if you dont like that. Well what can i say.
She also says that they are stronger together. If Ron gets shunted to the side (which, if H/Hr happens, he probably would) then how will they be stronger? It would put Harry in a weaker position (without the strategic thinker) and possible damage his ability to fight Voldemort. Harry is the lead character, but he needs support. That is why Ron and Hermione (and Neville etc. etc.) are there.

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 6:27 pm

hemione cant be with ron cuz shes way better than him! if they're together, it wont be good for his self-esteem cuz she'll be earning more than him!!!! :eyebrows:
Not if he works as a professional chess player they make bundels the good ones any way
( Kassparof got 10,000,000 $ to play against acomputer) :rotfl:

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 6:27 pm

First we dont know Ron will be Prefect again. And Hermione and Ron where Prefect in OOTP and Harry did not sit in the common room. So why would he do it in HBP.

Harry had his detentions with Umbridge in OotP so he wasn't in the common home after dinner as he would normally be. Also, he had Fred and Geogre as company OotP, he won't have them now.

Do they reaward the badge? I didn't think so, if they did, don't you think their would have been Mrs Weasley praising Percy for re-recieving it in cos?

daz

December 31st, 2004, 6:33 pm

Ron has a crush. Im not sure Hermione will even reject him. He may just grow out of it. So it wont ruin anything. And if it does. Well so what. It just means he is a sad little man that needs to grow up alot. Its life. Look at Harry. You take lifes blows and you move on. Because if you did not. Your never get out of bed in the morning.

Harry had his detentions with Umbridge in OotP so he wasn't in the common home after dinner as he would normally be. Also, he had Fred and Geogre as company OotP, he won't have them now.

Do they reaward the badge? I didn't think so, if they did, don't you think their would have been Mrs Weasley praising Percy for re-recieving it in cos?

You get revoted again. Its the english school way. Just say if your lame as prefect. Then you would not get it for the 6th year. Its all common sense. :tu:

Polychrome

December 31st, 2004, 6:34 pm

Thank you :) At first, I'll be in Austin, Texas, but I might move around!

If you ever cross into New Mexico, you'll have to drop me a line. :)

shohra

December 31st, 2004, 6:34 pm

This is the exact thing people keep saying. And new flash: love does not revovle around money. Lasting love never does and never should. My brother keeps a girlfriend by buying her things - because she's highly material. But my boyfriend pleases me by just being my boyfriend. And our relationship is strong.
A piece of advice to your brother from an older mail Drop Her a relation retained on money is no good :angel:

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 6:37 pm

Ron has a crush. Im not sure Hermione will even reject him. He may just grow out of it. So it wont ruin anything. And if it does. Well so what. It just means he is a sad little man that needs to grow up alot. Its life. Look at Harry. You take lifes blows and you move on. Because if you did not. Your never get out of bed in the morning.

Why does he have to grow out of it. Him having a crush on Hermione can be the start of a beautiful relationship if she loves him back and so far I see no evidence that says she doesn't. The 'ask me first thing' and the way she treats Luna shows me that she loves him.

Harry has yet to show feelings for Hermione so it doesn't seem like at the moment they're competing. Ron doesn't have to get other anything yet cause Harry doesn't have feelings for Hermione and no one can argue that he does cause we live in him head. We know his thoughts and feelings and we know that so far he doesn't like Hermione.

Polychrome

December 31st, 2004, 6:37 pm

I admit that you could be right. Perhaps if Dumbledore takes Harry, Ron, and Hermione into his office sometime during the next two books, sits them down, and explains to them exactly how they feel about each other and why - then it will have been a mystery.

Okay, having been gone for a few days, I'm not bothering to attempt to catch up completely with this thread...

But the mental image of Dumbledore giving the trio "The Talk" had me ROTFL.

dark_kneazle

December 31st, 2004, 6:42 pm

You get revoted again. Its the english school way. Just say if your lame as prefect. Then you would not get it for the 6th year. Its all common sense.

My school doesn't revote prefects, you can get your badge revoked for not following the rules and you can get promoted and demoted to senoir prefects butt hey don't revote, so not all english schools.

Also, who would get the badge instead of Ron?

But the mental image of Dumbledore giving the trio "The Talk" had me ROTFL.

That's a point though, Hogwarts doesn't do a sex class. O.O The trios in trouble through my accounts... well Harry anyway.

daz

December 31st, 2004, 6:43 pm

I have no clue. Maybe Harry as it should of been him. And Dumbledore said as much. Ron was second in line. And i dont see Draco being Prefect again. I dont think Parents or kids would be happy.

Harryinlove

December 31st, 2004, 6:45 pm

Ron is immature? Yeah, I agree... he's as immature as Harry is...
I respect you don't believe in opposites attract... but I think that is what is happening between Ron and Hermione...

I agree that we just have to wait and see... :agree:

Ron is just as immature as Harry is huh? Clearly you don't know what "immature" means. Or you havn't even read the books. It's quite clear to any person reading the books that isn't constantly chanting "Ron is perfect, Ron can do no wrong, Ron is better than Harry" that Ron is MUCH more immature than Harry. Harry is by no means mature I'll give you that. But just to compare the way they talk about people is evidence enough that Ron is in fact much less mature than Harry. Don't worry though. He'll mature fast enough. Quite frankly I think that he'll already doing it, using canon from the 5th book it seems that he is.

daz

December 31st, 2004, 6:46 pm

And im sure we have Harry as head boy in book 7 and Hermione as head girl. SO romantic. I can just see it.