Who Will fall in love with whom? v.42

[faiza]

Of course, we want a positive resolution of the tension.

And what's more positive then Ron moving on and Harry and Hermione getting together :p

How is that compatible with her statement that Harry's "worse than Ron"?

He's worse then Ron because he doesn't get the point she was trying to make.

Because she and everyone else expected (not necessarily wanted) Harry to be Prefect, not Ron.

If she wanted Ron to be a prefect, then why couldn't she name one, one good quality that he has. Hermione is someone who believes in righteousness. So if she wanted Ron to be a prefect, she must've thought he deserved it, wich she clearly didn't. Oh and if she's harbouring secret feelings for Ron, you'd think she would be able to think of a reason why he should be prefect, after all, she fancies him so she must think he has some good characteristics.

Many things. What do you think is the reason?

I think because he's embarrassed and he thinks he's let her down, because she clearly wanted and expected him to be prefect, not Ron.

My guess is that Harry must have realized that jealousy was showing on his face, and he didn't want Hermione to see it. His hearty voice is a sign of that jealousy, too.

Hearty = Expressed warmly, exuberantly, and unrestrainedly: a hearty welcome.
Complete or thorough; unequivocal: hearty support
I don't see how his hearty woice is a sighn of jealousy.

*bangs head against desk*
And you seriously call that a shippy moment?

No need for you to bang your head, I was just kidding.

I'd like to know why he's mad in the first place. I'd also like to know what happened when they entered Transfiguration. I believe it is Umbridge inspecting the class, but I'm not sure.

He was mad because Hermione thought McG was right with warning Harry not to lose his temper in Umbridges class. And yes, Umbridge was inspecting the class.

The alternative interpretation stresses the Hermione part. What could be the actual reason for Harry's calming be then?

The point I was trying to make is that not only Ginny can calm Harry down when he's mad. Some people portray Hermione as this cry-baby that can't handle an angry Harry and bursts into tears whenever he gets mad. This prooves that she isn't. She knows exactly what to say to make him listen and calm down.


I would stress Hermione's words, "I want to talk to you." The discussion that later follows shows that nobody else said that to him. If they had - and I think they would have eventually, had Hermione not done it first - Harry could have come out as well.

You think they would have eventually? I think they had enough time to do so but didn't. There is no proof what so ever to suggest that they would have eventually. Kinda surprising since Ginny is the only one who's been possessed by Voldemort and didn't even make an effort to get him out by saying something as simple as "I want to talk to you".

What has the basic human instinct of grouping together in the face of danger to do with romantic compatibility in a long-term relationship?


Capable of existing or performing in harmonious, agreeable, or congenial combination with another or others = compatible

In that instant, they were able to perform in a harmonious, agreeable, congenial way in the face of danger. So I would think they'd be able to make a longterm relationship work, where they actually have time to think things trough, discuss things,...

Which is exactly why it's not a good trait for Hermione to have if she is to be in a romantic relationship with Harry. Or do you think that Harry has any positive associations with the Dursleys?

But it is a good trait for Hermione to have when dating Ron? So it's good for Ron to date his mother?

[yxs]

If they didn't, why were they written the way they were?



EXACTLY my thoughts... my question...

I mean, if everything is so obvious and clear, like Herons say... and like Rowling's quotes support, or seem to support 100%, then WHY are some of the things in the books written the way they are??
We can't just throw the books away and only think about interview quotes... no... most people don't even get to hear those interviews... books are still the main things where we should get our canon... And so far there's always been a reason why JK writes the things she writes, and she's good with details that have meaning, sometimes more meaning than we expected.

I think she knows exactly what she's doing... and certain clues are there for certain outcomes... if things seem confusing, then we can assume that they're not as they look, that there's more to it... otherwise those things simply wouldn't be written in there.
Harmonians don't get their ship idea out of thin air either

[IceKat55]

Canon? (I've been waiting for an opportunity to say this for ages :p )
Book 6 comes out in 7 months. Ask me again. :eyebrows:

Why can't it be more then that?
Because they've shown no signs of romantic interest in each other. After 5 years of close friendship. Shouldn't there have been a hint of a spark by now?

Yeah, I wondered about that too. But it doesn't necessarily mean she will be Harry's LI. She could've been developed for some other reason.
Perhaps.

We can not possibly know why (untill we read the next books). Wormtail dissappeared for a whole book, but I'm sure we'll be hearing more from him in HBP. If Rowling gave Ginny this super character development out of the blue just so she could be Harry's girlfriend I'd feel cheated.
I don't believe that Ginny's role will merely be 'girlfriend'. And I also don't think it would be 'cheating' on Rowling's part, despite how some folks will feel, should the HMS Chocolate sail. The possibility of a future H/G dynamic has been there from book one, starting with Ginny's mere crush. Granted, it has yet to develop further at this point, save for her growing out of said crush, and she & Harry showing the beginnings of a real friendship...but there are two more books to go! :)

[yxs]

After 5 years of close friendship. Shouldn't there have been a hint of a spark by now?


Ah god... no there shouldn't...

1) they are kids... and if it's gonna be true romance for the end, it won't be showed so early... like crushes

2) Well, isn't the romance subplot a mystery itself? Keep it unknown until near the very end for a satisfying solution

[IceKat55]

Ah god... no there shouldn't...

1) they are kids... and if it's gonna be true romance for the end, it won't be showed so early... like crushes
Ah yes. Because there would be such a drastic difference between Harry showing a romantic hint toward Hermione at age 17, versus age 15.
???

IMO, he flat-out isn't romantically attracted to her. And the R/Hr dynamic has been building steadily for multiple books. The math just ain't that difficult for me. :)

2) Well, isn't the romance subplot a mystery itself? Keep it unknown until near the very end for a satisfying solution
Yes, and Harry's romance is exactly what Rowling is keeping secret.

R/Hr? Not so much.

[rupertfan123]

Hello all!And HAPPY CHRISTMAS!



Even to you Harmonians!

Originally Posted by faiza
We can not possibly know why (untill we read the next books). Wormtail dissappeared for a whole book, but I'm sure we'll be hearing more from him in HBP. If Rowling gave Ginny this super character development out of the blue just so she could be Harry's girlfriend I'd feel cheated.

JKR wouldn't have to give Ginny any sort of character developement what-so-ever!Harry would merely have to fall in love with her the way she is.

[stic]

Icekat55 wrote:The possibility of a future H/G dynamic has been there from book one, starting with Ginny's mere crush. Granted, it has yet to develop further at this point, save for her growing out of said crush, and she & Harry showing the beginnings of a real friendship...but there are two more books to go! You are saying that there are no romantic feelings from Harry towards Ginny yet and they're both "showing the beginnings of a real friendship".

You expect a continuous journey from forming a friendship to deepening that friendship to finally realizing it's love for H/G while you argue against that very same concept itself whem you claim: "H/Hr have a veeery deep friendship but it's impossible that they make that last step because they haven't made it yet.
If Harry and Ginny had reached remotely as deep a frienship as H/Hr I expect you would argue: "See, they're almost there!" :td:

[yxs]

Ah yes. Because there would be such a drastic difference between Harry showing a romantic hint toward Hermione at age 17, versus age 15.
???
Actually, yes
Rowling made it like that... she decided to write only 7 books, until the trio are 18 years old.


IMO, he flat-out isn't romantically attracted to her. And the R/Hr dynamic has been building steadily for multiple books. The math just ain't that difficult for me. :)
Literature isn't math


Yes, and Harry's romance is exactly what Rowling is keeping secret.

Secret it is... but there still has to be a build up to this... not a half-developed female character suddenly jumping into a romantic interest, out of the blue




JKR wouldn't have to give Ginny any sort of character developement what-so-ever!Harry would merely have to fall in love with her the way she is.
So the main character's gonna fall in love with the poorly developed female character just like this? With no build up, no tensions between them, no story in the books? How interesting is it going to be for the reader? Not much.
It is possible, but it is not likely... Rowling's a great writer, but she's not gonna make miracles happen either
She had her chance with Ginny, she decided not to go there... she has a reason why shy writes something and why she doesn't. Why she didn't develop Ginny, but made Harry/Hermione bond grow gradually.
You can talk about Ron/Hermione as much as you want, but this fact stays.

[delemtri]

Literature isn't math

Excellent point - I kept getting them confused.

Secret it is... but there still has to be a build up to this... not a half-developed female character suddenly jumping into a romantic interest, out of the blue

Like Cho?

Incidentally, snuggles to Rowan's Jet and Corned Bee. Glad to know I can take a nap and people will jump in and keep arguing in my place. :)

Flying Phoenix, I think one of us somehow misunderstood the other pages ago - I'm pretty sure it was me - so I'm going to be very rude and simply cease our discussion. Apologies!

[rupertfan123]

So the main character's gonna fall in love with the poorly developed female character just like this? With no build up, no tensions between them, no story in the books? How interesting is it going to be for the reader? Not much.
It is possible, but it is not likely... Rowling's a great writer, but she's not gonna make miracles happen either
She had her chance with Ginny, she decided not to go there... she has a reason why shy writes something and why she doesn't. Why she didn't develop Ginny, but made Harry/Hermione bond grow gradually.
You can talk about Ron/Hermione as much as you want, but this fact stays.


Just because Ginny's character and personality isn't written so perfectly that we read a paragraph and know exactly who she is and what she's like,doesn't mean she's a poorly developed character.We know more about her from the books than you think!Apparently,she must have a quality that makes people want to be around her if she gets a new boyfriend almost every year,and by what we've read we know she's attractive.JK doesn't have to tell us every little detail about every character.In her mind the character is made perfectly.She know EXACTLY who Ginny is.Remember also that Harry isn't a person reading the books.He's a fictional character inside the books.He knows more about Ginny than we think he does.JK never tells us how much Harry knows about Ginny,and she probally never will.Harry can easily fall in love with Ginny.Just as easily as Ron can fall in love with Lavender,or Parvati,or Hermione(wink,wink,nudge,nudge).

Just because we don't know much about the characters doesn't mean the other character don't know much about the characters.

[Firebolt2004]

Actually, yes
Rowling made it like that... she decided to write only 7 books, until the trio are 18 years old.



Literature isn't math



Secret it is... but there still has to be a build up to this... not a half-developed female character suddenly jumping into a romantic interest, out of the blue


So the main character's gonna fall in love with the poorly developed female character just like this? With no build up, no tensions between them, no story in the books? How interesting is it going to be for the reader? Not much.
It is possible, but it is not likely... Rowling's a great writer, but she's not gonna make miracles happen either
She had her chance with Ginny, she decided not to go there... she has a reason why shy writes something and why she doesn't. Why she didn't develop Ginny, but made Harry/Hermione bond grow gradually.
You can talk about Ron/Hermione as much as you want, but this fact stays.


JKR is not writing a romance novel here, Harry's love life is not the focus of the story. And as you've said she is a great writer, she has made this fantasy world that she created, become real to a lot of us. So I believe that she will make us believe in Harry's LI too. She has had many occasions in the last 5 books for H/Hr to develop as a romantic pair but she has obviously chosen not to. Why would she have to hide it behind obscure symbolisms and vague hints that only a few seem to get if she is intending for H/Hr to be together in the end. It is certainly not going to affect the outcome of the story or Harry's final confrontation with Voldemort.

[stic]

rupertfan123 wrote: Just because Ginny's character and personality isn't written so perfectly that we read a paragraph and know exactly who she is and what she's like,doesn't mean she's a poorly developed character.(...) Apparently,she must have a quality that makes people want to be around her if she gets a new boyfriend almost every year,and by what we've read we know she's attractive. Nobody argued that she's inattractive or has no qualities.
It's just fact that we've seen more of many 3rd and 4th rate characters in PoA and GoF than we've seen Ginny. Enough possibilities in 2 books to drop a few lines of significant character developement here and there. :huh:
When we see her in book 5 Jo has to use other characters to provide some Ginny-backstory to explain Ginny's developement; We didn't get to see it, we just hear a few comments about it.
In book 5 Ginny has one little stand-out moment in the library and from there on it goes downhill again. We don't see most of her performance in the DoM, she needs to get dragged along by Luna.....
Ginny's "power" and importance in book 5 do in fact not reach that of a completely new, female 2nd-rate-character. :td:
I fail to see how Jo intends to pair Ginny up with the guy the whole series is about. :td:
He knows more about Ginny than we think he does. Harry actually knows less about Ginny than we think he does. He forgot completely about her and the Chamber of secrets, it formed no greater bond between them . :huh:

[Baroness]

Actually, yes
Secret it is... but there still has to be a build up to this... not a half-developed female character suddenly jumping into a romantic interest, out of the blue

But doesn't love happen that way? Sometimes someone can be in front of you for years and years on the backburner of your mind, then one day, something triggers you to wake up and pay attention. Why not in Harry Potter? Interesting things could be done with a Ginny/Harry scenario in this kind of situation.

[Messed]

But doesn't love happen that way? Sometimes someone can be in front of you for years and years on the backburner of your mind, then one day, something triggers you to wake up and pay attention. Why not in Harry Potter?

To me, that sounds more like Harry and Hermione than Harry and Ginny.

[CornedBee]

Garbage Man and stic, that's two great posts. I have bookmarked this page and hope to answer them when I come back. Right now I'm too tired, and I'll leave tomorrow morning.

Of course, by that time we'll probably be in v44, but I still feel the need to address your points, as they were well made. Mind you, each of the moments GM mentioned deserves an essay of its own - perhaps I should instead get on with my Hermione's PoV rendering of all the books so that I'll eventually get to OotP and can address them that way...

[Baroness]

It could be, but I always figured Hermione to be a major part of Harry's life. She's not in the background, I think. Ginny, on the other hand has been a part of Harry's life, but in the background. He's known her, but he's never paid any attention. I think it would be very sweet that he starts paying attention now that she's moved on and can show him the real Ginny.

[The Garbage Man]

JKR is not writing a romance novel here, Harry's love life is not the focus of the story

Ah, be carefule what you write. Love is the main theme throughout the series, and, as its not completed yet, we do not know how important the romance will be. I believe that there is no doubt that love will play an important role in the defeat of Voldemort (Should it happen) so don't write off its relevance yet.

[linzee4life]

That wasn't neutral at all. A neutral answer would be 'That's very thoughtful' or the like. 'Unusual' is not a remotely completmentary term; and its only forced politeness; neutral bordering insulting. She could've said a variety of other words to make a more complementary comment, or even lie. That is, of course, if she even wants to be with Ron.

It is completely neutral. She did not say that she disliked the gift nor did she point to anything with the gift being wrong. Ron's feelings were not hurt and she did not have to lie. If it were insulting, Ron would be insulting. He may be a little lovesick, but he isn't stupid. Hermione didn't say that because she was forced to. She was polite and thoughtful because she wanted to. No one forced her to be nice.

ETA: Sorry I'm a little late, I just came on to check something really quick and decided to reply. I'll get back to you in the morning, as I'm busy considering it is Christmas. :p

[The Garbage Man]

It is completely neutral. She did not say that she disliked the gift nor did she point to anything with the gift being wrong. Ron's feelings were not hurt and she did not have to lie. If it were insulting, Ron would be insulting. He may be a little lovesick, but he isn't stupid. Hermione didn't say that because she was forced to. She was polite and thoughtful because she wanted to. No on forced her to be nice.

No one forced her to be nice? She is his friend; to make a blatant insult would be way out of character for her. 'Unusual' is borderline outright dislike. There were loads of things she could've said that would be much more complementary and not lying. ("That was a very thoughtful gift, Ron, and I appreciate it") Using a one-word remark to describe his gift is *almost* tactless. Especially when she knew (And yes, she would know. Hermione, if anything, is an expert on feelings and observant of those around her) his intentions for giving such a gift.

And regardless, Ron's gift was still completely unsuited for her. It brings up the question: "Who is the Hermione that Ron knows?"

And worry not about response delays. I realize that some of us have lives. I just got back from relatives, myself.

[Messed]

JKR is not writing a romance novel here, Harry's love life is not the focus of the story. And as you've said she is a great writer, she has made this fantasy world that she created, become real to a lot of us. So I believe that she will make us believe in Harry's LI too. She has had many occasions in the last 5 books for H/Hr to develop as a romantic pair but she has obviously chosen not to. Why would she have to hide it behind obscure symbolisms and vague hints that only a few seem to get if she is intending for H/Hr to be together in the end. It is certainly not going to affect the outcome of the story or Harry's final confrontation with Voldemort.

But alas, Dumbledore has already told us that "the power he knows not" is love. Harry's love life is most likely going to play a major part in the next two books.

[EmilyRose]

Then whomever Harry does fall in love with is obviously in a great deal of danger. Voldemort's already proven he goes after Harry's weakness--those he loves, and Harry's already proven that is where he gets his strength.

Ginny's already been in that situation, even if she was a platonic friend/relative of Ron's at that time. I wonder if she's succeptable to it now that she's already been controlled once by Voldemort/Tom Riddle. If Chocolate does sail, it's an interesting question what's going to happen to Ginny when Voldemort goes after the things Harry holds dear.

Another situation for Ginny to prove she's got some guts, but I'd gnaw my nails just as much if it was Hermione and Harmony had sailed.

I like those characters too much. Almost tempted to go for Harry/Pansy Parkinson again, just so that someone I don't like ends up in that situation.

[OhhhMacadamia]

An interesting thign you brought up: GInny already being in that situation...

It's possible. that a reuse of a plot device using the same character (i.e. Harry going to save Ginny from Voldemort) is unlikely to be used again.

Then again, who says Harry will be the one doing the saving. Maybe Ginny can save him, for a change. ;)

I definitely see some plot and thematic issues with Chocolate sailing, but, then again, JKR has a lot more to reveal about Ginny and the way Harry sees her.

As opposed to with Hermione. He much more could Harry's perspective change? He's 15 already, the book is almost completely from his perspective, and he's already seen her dolled up and hasn't cared!!! Grrr. This point has been made countless times, feel free to ignore it. I don't want to start up a Harmony/Heron debate again if it doesn't have a place here.

[delemtri]

With the release date of HBP I think we've all been considering what specifically could happen in the next book along with what has happened in the first five. Here's my question for everyone: What will it take for your ship to really be sunk? For me, I think H/G has a chance in book VII if it doesn't appear here, but not a good one; R/H really needs to happen sometime during this book. I believe if there is any real romantic H/H interaction - real in they both interact that way knowing it's romantic - then Heron and Chocolate will both be more or less sunk. At the same time, without it I don't think there's any reasonable expectation for H/H to just happen in the seventh book.

But I'm interested in your views (all ships)!

[Tzigone]

For my ship to sink there must either be flat-out denial from one of the characters regarding feelings for the character I'd put them with or deep romantic feelings from one of the characters for a third character (overt ones), or character death. Or JKR saying it's not going to happen.

[The Garbage Man]

He much more could Harry's perspective change? He's 15 already,

I'm just going to comment on this. The difference between a 15 year old and a 17 year old can span a gulf. Attitudes and maturity changes so much in those years that the end result for the series is unpredictable. Rowling has done a fantastic job so far with that, so you can pretty much expect it to continue on through 6 and 7.

I remember kids in high school that were idiots in their freshman year become brilliant in their junior year. Perspectives at that age change like the wind. Hell, H/G ship better count on it; because if his perspective of Ginny doesn't change, it's not going to happen!

[delemtri]

For my ship to sink there must either be flat-out denial from one of the characters regarding feelings for the character I'd put them with or deep romantic feelings from one of the characters for a third character (overt ones), or character death. Or JKR saying it's not going to happen.

So you don't think there's a possibility that, for example, Hermione could date one boy and then the other?

[LilypadLollipop]

hello one and all :p how's christmas? wonderful.
anyways, i've read all the posts recently (there are so many!) and i came across the prefect scene. saying that Mrs. Weasley let out a shriek just like hermione's? how does this help? Mrs. Weasley loves her son as a son, she has no romantic interest in him (that's just wrong :D ), so... if hermione let out a shriek like hers she loves harry as a brother or a son. just my personal analysis of course.

[Tzigone]

So you don't think there's a possibility that, for example, Hermione could date one boy and then the other?


No, not really.

She could date someone outside the trio and then one of the trio members. But I really don't think she's apt to date both Ron and Harry. I don't see that ever happening, to be quite honest.

[delemtri]

No, not really.

She could date someone outside the trio and then one of the trio members. But I really don't think she's apt to date both. I don't see that ever happening, to be quite honest.

Me either - but I'm curious because some people have brought up the possibility.

Anybody else?

[LilypadLollipop]

Me either - but I'm curious because some people have brought up the possibility.

Anybody else?
i agree with u personally :tu:

[The Garbage Man]

hello one and all how's christmas? wonderful.
anyways, i've read all the posts recently (there are so many!) and i came across the prefect scene. saying that Mrs. Weasley let out a shriek just like hermione's? how does this help? Mrs. Weasley loves her son as a son, she has no romantic interest in him (that's just wrong ), so... if hermione let out a shriek like hers she loves harry as a brother or a son. just my personal analysis of course.

I believe the comparison was made to emphasize her excitement; as Mrs. Weasley was in there as well and was completely ecstatic over Ron. Of course, that is the way I took it.

Me either - but I'm curious because some people have brought up the possibility.

I've thought about that too, but frankly I don't see it happening. The series is coming to a close, and JKR would have to do some serious writing to cram all that in. The romances in book 6 will probably be the ones that stick. Essentially, there just isn't enough time left to make it believable.

Besides, that would cause serious rifts in the trio.

[marauderlupin]

None of their previous adventures eve cost any one any money. Why should it change all of a sudden? :huh:


I think it's really super cute that people are still suggesting a Hermione/Draco ship after what JKR said :rotfl:

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

But alas, Dumbledore has already told us that "the power he knows not" is love. Harry's love life is most likely going to play a major part in the next two books.

But what kind of love? That's the real question. Obviously, romantic love can't be the only kind that counts, or Lily wouldn't have been able to save Harry in the first place.

[haha]

What will it take for your ship to really be sunk?

Ok well i don't think that H/G will be talked about much in book 6 but i agree that they'll definitely have a chance in book 7 if there is a little hint in this book. Someone mentioned that whoever Harry loves will be in danger, and i agree...
Then whomever Harry does fall in love with is obviously in a great deal of danger. Voldemort's already proven he goes after Harry's weakness--those he loves, and Harry's already proven that is where he gets his strength.
but i don't know if Ginny will be in the same position as she was in CoS. An interesting thought is that at the time Ginny had a HUGE crush on Harry and if they WERE in the same situation then maybe she'd recall all the feelings that she had for him.

So if H/G don't get together in book 6, I'm not too worried but i think that there definitely will be something with R/H in this book. I'm not saying that they'd definitely be a couple, but maybe they'd finally acknowledge that they don't HATE each other but quite the opposite. I'm not sure what it would take for my sink to really sink. I mean there would definitely need to be a decleration of feelings.

[Messed]

But what kind of love? That's the real question. Obviously, romantic love can't be the only kind that counts, or Lily wouldn't have been able to save Harry in the first place.

Good point. That is the real question, isn't it?

[haha]

So you don't think there's a possibility that, for example, Hermione could date one boy and then the other?

I don't think this is a possibility. IMO she'll date one or the other and i can'e see her dating someone outside the trio..in fact i can't see her dating anyone besides Ron :D

[rupertfan123]

I don't think this is a possibility. IMO she'll date one or the other and i can'e see her dating someone outside the trio..in fact i can't see her dating anyone besides Ron

I think it is possible,but not likely.JKR would only do that if she wanted the trios friendship to be completely destroyed.

[haha]

I think it is possible,but not likely.JKR would only do that if she wanted the trios friendship to be completely destroyed.

so then you have to ask yourself why would she want to do that..and can you tell me of anyone who would WANT that to happen. But because the personalities of each of the trio is so different i don't think that it's possible for Hermione to like one person than the other...I just don't see it happening.

[IceKat55]

You are saying that there are no romantic feelings from Harry towards Ginny yet and they're both "showing the beginnings of a real friendship".

You expect a continuous journey from forming a friendship to deepening that friendship to finally realizing it's love for H/G while you argue against that very same concept itself whem you claim: "H/Hr have a veeery deep friendship but it's impossible that they make that last step because they haven't made it yet.
Yep. Harry & Ginny are just starting out. I believe that they'll begin a real friendship, get to know each other, and fall in love.

Harry & Hermione have had 5 years together and those 5 years have seen their friendship change and deepen, certainly. Is romance impossible? No. Highly unlikely? IMO, yes. They've already gotten know each other very well, and there are no real mysteries between them, no 'voyage of discoveries', if you will. What else does Harry need to know or discover about Hermione in order to fall in love with her? Doesn't he have a pretty good idea of what she's all about by now? And vice-versa?

And yet, nothing has sparked...and Rowling is running out of time. If she wants to suddenly do an about-face and throw Harry & Hermione together, and make it believable while at the same time resolving the R/Hr dynamic that she has been building steadily for 2+ books, then she'd best get a real move on it! :lol:

[The Garbage Man]

And yet, nothing has sparked...and Rowling is running out of time. If she wants to suddenly do an about-face and throw Harry & Hermione together, and make it believable while at the same time resolving the R/Hr dynamic that she has been building steadily for 2+ books, then she'd best get a real move on it!

Quick interjection here: The same could be said of Ginny and Harry. We'd have to learn loads more about Ginny before the ship would become believable; because we know relatively little about her. I think it's fair to say she's deceptive, but that's about it.

[IceKat55]

Quick interjection here: The same could be said of Ginny and Harry. We'd have to learn loads more about Ginny before the ship would become believable; because we know relatively little about her. I think it's fair to say she's deceptive, but that's about it.
Which is precisely why I think Rowling put her on the backburner until she was ready to be moved into position, and brought forward in Book 5.

Rowling chose to give her major development, and we know considerably more than merely "she's deceptive". Ginny has always been there, out of the corners of our eyes...she's very loyal to her friends (we learn that in GoF, when she defends Hermione to the boys before the Yule Ball), she's clever, resourceful, thoughtful, witty, brave, encouraging...why would she be such a horrible choice for Harry, romantically speaking? What, simply because she's 'not Hermione', she's not the 'lead female character'? :huh: And in HBP, I'm willing to bet that Ginny & Harry will be spending quite a bit more time together, starting out with Quidditch practices...who knows what may develop between them, as they get to know each other? :eyebrows:

And I don't really believe that, should the Chocolate sail, anyone could honestly be shocked silly and say "Wow! I NEVER woulda seen that coming!", because as I said earlier, the possibility for a H/G dynamic has been there since book one when Ginny's schoolgirl crush was mentioned. Which is 100% my personal perspective, of course. :)

[Corbin Dallas]

I noticed people are talking about Love as being the Power that The Dark Lord knows not and I think it is part of it but if you look at how Harry was saved from the AK curse, Lily was not the only one who Sacrifice for Harry...
we know in POA that James told Lily to take Harry and run as he went to face Voldemort to give her time to do so, James was probably aware that Volde,ort would kill him as I don't believe James was able to Kill Voldemort( hunch thing) now this is a Sacrifice, knowing heading to die just to give your wife and Child time to escape, Now Lily , whose proffesion is unknown as of yet, was believed to be quite good at Charms, Ollivander's speech on it in PS/SS, and may have understood what was happening, thus she begged for Harry's life and forced Voldemort to kill her and now you have 2 sacrifices for baby Harry. Voldemort to his dismay forgot this and became thought and Shadow for 13 years, a heavy price to pay. Now the force in Harry's heart ties to Love as well as to his "Saving People Thing" it is his willingness to sacrifice that Harry possess, in the end, "No greater Love can a man have than to lay down his life for his brother" , or Friend, or Godfather, or percieved family. As to Romance and the "Heart of it all" that was discussed earlier, the Jeremy PAxman quote, if you believe that a romance is what it is reffered to then consider that Goblet was out and Order was being worked on, Harry/Ginny was not as prominent and the idea that Ginny might still be affected by the Possession was rarely discussed and not in depth until after Order came out, I would hazard to guess that Ginny, red-head who has her own score to settle, and Harry, spitting image of his father-except the eyes,he has his mom's eyes, maybe repeating history in a fasion to vanquish Riddle once and for all, get me ;) '-
CD

[The Garbage Man]

why would she be such a horrible choice for Harry, romantically speaking?

As of right now Ginny does not know enough about Harry or who he is to be a viable choice. She knows more about his full name then his first, if you see what I'm saying. Her crush was based on his fame, and, if there's one thing Harry detests other than Voldemort, it's his fame. This could change in book 6, of course, but I simply don't see it happening. The fact that she can lie so easily and convincingly makes me...uncomfortable. At least Harry doesn't meet the person's eye when he's lying to them.

[haha]

Quick interjection here: The same could be said of Ginny and Harry. We'd have to learn loads more about Ginny before the ship would become believable; because we know relatively little about her. I think it's fair to say she's deceptive, but that's about it.

But you have to then consider why jk gave Ginny's character such a major role in the fifth book, and why she allowed the readers to get to know her more. She would only do that if she was planning on showing more and more of her in the next two books.

And I don't really believe that, should the Chocolate sail, anyone could honestly be shocked silly and say "Wow! I NEVER woulda seen that coming!", because as I said earlier, the possibility for a H/G dynamic has been there since book one when Ginny's schoolgirl crush was mentioned. Which is 100% my personal perspective, of course.

i agree :) your not the only one to think so, trust me. I think that the crush was a build up, and you can't really blame Harry for not 'seeing' Ginny as anything other than his best friend's sister. i mean he wasn't interested in girls in that way and was much more interested in other things, like Quidditch and LV.

[Corbin Dallas]

As of right now Ginny does not know enough about Harry or who he is to be a viable choice. She knows more about his full name then his first, if you see what I'm saying. Her crush was based on his fame, and, if there's one thing Harry detests other than Voldemort, it's his fame. This could change in book 6, of course, but I simply don't see it happening. The fact that she can lie so easily and convincingly makes me...uncomfortable. At least Harry doesn't meet the person's eye when he's lying to them.
You mean like Harry did to Mcgonnagal in Chamber, like Ron said that was the best story Harry had come up with, meaning going to see Hermione whne they were really going to see Myrtle, and there was a Lie to Snape in POA, and to Fudge in Order, wow Harry has told some whoppers too,get me ;) '-
CD

[Messed]

I once read an essay or something on the development of Ginny's character in book 5 and what roll it's going to play in future books. I have no idea where it is now though.

But the concept of the essay was something like Harry's going to start developing feelings for Hermione and is going to need to talk to someone about it. Obviously, he can't go to Hermione, so he asks Ginny for advice instead. It's like, Ginny replaces Hermione, not as Harry's best friend, but as he "Dear Abby" so to speak. The person he goes to on advice for his love life. But it would only work for H/Hr, because otherwise he could just talk to Hermione.


It's a good theory about the recent development of Ginny's character. Too me, it seems a bit more...viable...than Ginny all of a sudden becoming Harry's LI.

[Tzigone]

I disagree with you, Corbin Dallas. I think the fact that she was willing to call him on his bahavior and suggest that he listen to her about being posessed means that she is no longer all agog at his fame. She didn't treat him like a star in that scene, or in the libarary scene. I don't recall her treating him as anything other than an ordinary person all through OOTP.

[IceKat55]

As of right now Ginny does not know enough about Harry or who he is to be a viable choice. She knows more about his full name then his first, if you see what I'm saying. Her crush was based on his fame, and, if there's one thing Harry detests other than Voldemort, it's his fame. This could change in book 6, of course, but I simply don't see it happening. The fact that she can lie so easily and convincingly makes me...uncomfortable. At least Harry doesn't meet the person's eye when he's lying to them.
And her crush is now over. She was able to speak evenly with Harry, quite forcefully at times, throughout Book 5, and will likely continue to do so in book 6. Which should progress their relationship forward even more. They will get to know each other more and more, and IMO, Harry will come to realize a few things, sit up, and take notice of little Ginny. And now that her crush is out of the way, she will be able to fall for the "real" Harry, as she gets to know him, as well. Just what I see as a major possibility. :)

ETA: Harry's lying to Hermione, whether he feels badly about it or not, is precisely why they're not romantically compatible, IMO. How much of a strain do you think that would put on their marriage, in due course? Would he ever learn to face her nagging personality head-on, and be able to stand up to her without lying on occasion?

We'll see! :D

[The Garbage Man]

But you have to then consider why jk gave Ginny's character such a major role in the fifth book, and why she allowed the readers to get to know her more. She would only do that if she was planning on showing more and more of her in the next two books.

Calling Ginny's role 'major' would be a bit of an overstatement...true, she went into the DOM, and offered bits of advice from time to time, but really I think Luna played a bigger role than her. She received more lines in book 5 than she did in books 3 and 4 combined, but I would be hesitant to announce that JKR is planning some sort of large scale resurrection of her character. As book 6 is supposed to be related to book 2, I should expect Ginny should play some sort of role in it, so maybe there's your explanation.

Or it could be a ship. But it isn't much of a prelude, then.

[Messed]

Sorry, I was reading The Garbage Man's siggy and felt the need to ask something that I've been wondering for a long time.

For both R/Hr and H/G shippers:

While referring to book 4, Jo states that "Everyone is in love with the wrong people."
In book 4, the infamous Yule Brawl takes place and Ginny still seems to have a crush on Harry.

What do you make of it?

[The Garbage Man]

ETA: Harry's lying to Hermione, whether he feels badly about it or not, is precisely why they're not romantically compatible, IMO. How much of a strain do you think that would put on their marriage, in due course? Would he ever learn to face her nagging personality head-on, and be able to stand up to her without lying on occasion?

Feeling bad about it makes all the difference. Like it or not, people lie to their friends; either by omission or otherwise. As this is all from Harry's POV, we don't know when other people lie, so that sorta makes Harry's deceptions bigger. And Harry isn't romantically interested in Hermione in book 5 (At least not consciously) so he would lie to her so she doesn't think less of him. You can't hold teenagers up to idealistic standards; it just doesn't happen.

And I'd be much, much more wary of a convincing and unscrupulous liar than an obvious and hesitent one.

Sorry, I was reading The Garbage Man's siggy and felt the need to ask something that I've been wondering for a long time.

For both R/Hr and H/G shippers:

While referring to book 4, Jo states that "Everyone is in love with the wrong people."
In book 4, the infamous Yule Brawl takes place and Ginny still seems to have a crush on Harry.

What do you make of it?

I'm not sure if there is enough evidence in book 4 (Ginny has hardly any lines) to say that she still has a crush on Harry. However, as she has no boyfriend (That we know of) until book 5 (When she is supposedly getting over Harry) it could be assumed that she still has a crush, or at least the remnants of one, during the Yule Ball. However, that is quite a long time to have a crush, so I can't say for sure either way. (Though Ron has been holding his crush for awhile now, too) I Don't have my GOF on me right now, so if you could show some excerpts of where you see G====>H in the book, post em.

Okay, here's the response: From what I remember, Ginny stuck to her original date even when Harry asked her, so I think she's almost completely over her crush. She did appear flustered, but that's expected. I don't think the quote applies in her case.

This isn't good for H/G, however, as it shows that Ginny isn't interested in Harry like she used to be.

[Tzigone]

BTW, how many lines can a signature be?

[haha]

Calling Ginny's role 'major' would be a bit of an overstatement
Would it? I mean she was with the trio when they went to the ministry, she helped them when they tried to talk to Sirius in Umbridge's fire. I'm not saying her role was as big as Harry, Ron or Hermione's but you have to admit that jk did develop her in the fifth book.

[LilypadLollipop]

I'm not sure about this Messed, but doesn't Ginny meet Michael Corner during the Yule Ball and :hang out" him afterwards? i'm not sure, but i think i'm right

[Tzigone]

I'm not sure about this Messed, but doesn't Ginny meet Michael Corner during the Yule Ball and :hang out" him afterwards? i'm not sure, but i think i'm right


You're correct. They broke up in OOTP, though. She mentioned being interested in Dean, but many aren't sure whether she was serious or just picking at Ron.

[LilypadLollipop]

You're correct. They broke up in OOTP, though. She mentioned being interested in Dean, but many aren't sure whether she was serious or just picking at Ron.
I think she was just picking at Ron :p, it would be typical Ginny. but she has matured... god, please don't make her date Dean!!!

[haha]

Calling Ginny's role 'major' would be a bit of an overstatement
Would it? I mean she was with the trio when they went to the ministry, she helped them when they tried to talk to Sirius in Umbridge's fire. I'm not saying her role was as big as Harry, Ron or Hermione's but you have to admit that jk did develop her alot in the fifth book.

[The Garbage Man]

Would it? I mean she was with the trio when they went to the ministry, she helped them when they tried to talk to Sirius in Umbridge's fire. I'm not saying her role was as big as Harry, Ron or Hermione's but you have to admit that jk did develop her in the fifth book.

I did not deny that her role did not become larger. She has become more important than she was in books 3 and 4. Though really I would place her importance in book 5 somewhere between Neville and Luna.

But I reinforce than anything could happen in book 6. I merely comment on book 5.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

I'm not sure if there is enough evidence in book 4 (Ginny has hardly any lines) to say that she still has a crush on Harry. However, as she has no boyfriend (That we know of) until book 5...

While we don't know about Michael until OoP, we're told Ginny met him at the Yule Ball. He could very well be her "wrong person."

As for Ron and Hermione, I think we're supposed to be looking at Ron's crush on Fleur and Hermione's relationship with Krum as the "wrong" loves. After all, if we accept evidence like "Hermione talks about you very often" as potential indications of Hermione's feelings, H/Hr is just as easy to rule out based on that quote.

[The Garbage Man]

While we don't know about Michael until OoP, we're told Ginny met him at the Yule Ball. He could very well be her "wrong person."

As for Ron and Hermione, I think we're supposed to be looking at Ron's crush on Fleur and Hermione's relationship with Krum as the "wrong" loves. After all, if we accept evidence like "Hermione talks about you very often" as potential indications of Hermione's feelings, H/Hr is just as easy to rule out based on that quote.

Ah, but we could also say Ron has a deeper crush on Hermione judging from his reactions during the ball. He doesn't care about Roger Davies at all. He cares very much about Krum, however.

But this is why I don't like using quotes to support either ship. They can be interpreted in far too many ways, which is the reason for the last statement in my sig. Personally, I stick with what I read in the books and try not to delve into quotes at all.

[delemtri]

I did not deny that her role did not become larger. She has become more important than she was in books 3 and 4. Though really I would place her importance in book 5 somewhere between Neville and Luna.

But I reinforce than anything could happen in book 6. I merely comment on book 5.

I'd give her a larger role than Luna's because of Quidditch and because she was with Harry over the summer.

I think talking about the three of them - Ginny, Neville, and Luna - is important to this discussion because they all talk to Harry about something Ron and Hermione don't really help with - about Sirius. Neville talks to him about Sirius *right* after the death and Luna a good deal later. Ginny talks to him about Sirius when Sirius is still alive. I think this is reflective of the personalities of the second trio - or at least of Ginny - she's very much representative of life.

[haha]

I did not deny that her role did not become larger. She has become more important than she was in books 3 and 4. Though really I would place her importance in book 5 somewhere between Neville and Luna.

But then Neville and Luna are now a pretty major part of the books too. there are so many threads in CoS alone which discuss the future of these two characters.

It's true that Ginny role got larger in the 5th book, but what's not to say that this is just the hint of the iceberg and it's a lead up to a more and more important role in the next two books?

[Messed]

I'm not usually one to use quotes either (unless it's something solid like the "No" to D/Hr).

I was just curious about your thoughts on the subject.

I'm off to bed now. Merry Christmas (and if you don't celebrate it, then happy holidays, whatever holiday you do celebrate)!

[The Garbage Man]

I'd give her a larger role than Luna's because of Quidditch and because she was with Harry over the summer.

Regardless her role has to be much expanded upon to make a viable match. I am not saying to make her up with the trio, but she has to have, in the very least, more lines; and more appearances in Harry's thoughts. When Ginny isn't around speaking, she might as well not exist. Harry doesn't think of her at all when she isn't around. (He doesn't hear her voice in his head, like he does, say, Hermione's)

It's true that Ginny role got larger in the 5th book, but what's not to say that this is just the hint of the iceberg and it's a lead up to a more and more important role in the next two books?

Absolutely nothing. Anything could happen in book 6.

[delemtri]

Regardless her role has to be much expanded upon to make a viable match. I am not saying to make her up with the trio, but she has to have, in the very least, more lines; and more appearances in Harry's thoughts. When Ginny isn't around speaking, she might as well not exist. Harry doesn't think of her at all when she isn't around. (He doesn't hear her voice in his head, like he does, say, Hermione's)

Post-Quidditch match. There's one. Obviously we need more to make it, as you said, viable - but a possible foundation has appeared.

[haha]

Post-Quidditch match. There's one. Obviously we need more to make it, as you said, viable - but a possible foundation has appeared.

True! This foundation is perfect to build on in the sixth book. And another time which come to mind is at the end of OotP when everyone is in the hospital wing. Luna mentions something which Hermione was clearly about to disagree upon but held her tongue. Ginny and Harry showed their amusement by sharing a 'look'. I just found it interesting how it's usually with Ron that Harry shares his 'funny Hermione moments' looks with BUT this time it was with Ginny.

[snoopy_bombay]

True! This foundation is perfect to build on in the sixth book. And another time which come to mind is at the end of OotP when everyone is in the hospital wing. Luna mentions something which Hermione was clearly about to disagree upon but held her tongue. Ginny and Harry showed their amusement by sharing a 'look'. I just found it interesting how it's usually with Ron that Harry shares his 'funny Hermione moments' looks with BUT this time it was with Ginny.

this shows that ginny's previous level of being someone harry only knew well is getting raised.She is beginning to become a good friend of his.To become his romantic interest she has to get over the friendship level,whereas hermione is really close cos she's already a very good friend.She can so easily become his romantic interest.

[Corbin Dallas]

I disagree with you, Corbin Dallas. I think the fact that she was willing to call him on his bahavior and suggest that he listen to her about being posessed means that she is no longer all agog at his fame. She didn't treat him like a star in that scene, or in the libarary scene. I don't recall her treating him as anything other than an ordinary person all through OOTP.
uhhhm, I agree with your assessment as it is mine, I'm not sure what post you're referring to where I said these things,so you know I'm a Chocolateer, a supporter of Harry/Ginny shipping and Order for me was the biggest step towards an actual, mature romance between Harry and Ginny, perceptions of each other changed, which is more than I can say for Harmony, get me ;) '-
CD
The "Everyone's after the wrong people or in love with the wrong people" quotes have always been about the Trio, Harry, Ron and Hermione, Jo even says so in the quotes :rolleyes:

[snoopy_bombay]

I think in all quotes by jkr in interviews she has just squashed the d/hr and n/l ships.She hasn't totally squashed the h/hr ship yet.

[KADH]

Unwrapping the Mysteries of Holiday Gift-Giving (and Receiving) in Harry Potter,
with a Brief Shipping Aside -- of course

(Note: all text is from the Scholastic Paper Editions)

’Tis the season, even in the wizarding world, for Christmas trees and crackers, merry and mistletoe, glimmering lights and glittering fairies, baubles and bangles, puddings and parties.

And presents. Loads of presents.

Practical presents that come right in handy. Presents that often return to play key parts in the story later. So let’s have a look at the holiday haul from Stone to Phoenix and see how presents figure in the fate and fortune of our hapless hero and his trusty sidekicks.

And don’t worry even talk of presents comes back round to shipping in the end.

“Will you look at this? I’ve got some presents!” Christmas firsts

Harry Potter never had a real Christmas before coming to Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, never had real friends, or fun or presents. So,

On Christmas Eve, Harry went to bed looking forwards to the next day for the food and the fun, but not expecting any presents at all. When he woke early in the morning, however, the first thing he saw was a small pile of packages at the foot of his bed.
“Merry Christmas,” said Ron, sleepily as Harry scrambled out bed and pulled on his bathrobe.
“You, too,” said Harry. “Will you look at this? I’ve got some presents!”
“What did you expect, turnips?” said Ron, turning to his own pile, which was a lot bigger than Harry’s.
Harry picked up the top parcel. It was wrapped in thick brown paper and scrawled across it was To Harry, from Hagrid. Inside was a roughly cut wooden flute. Hagrid had obviously whittled it himself. Harry blew it – it sounded a bit like an owl.
A second, very small parcel contained a note.
We received your message and enclose your Christmas present. From Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia. Taped to the note was a fifty-pence piece.
“That’s friendly,” said Harry.
Ron was fascinated by the fifty pence.
“Weird!” he said, “What a shape! This is money?”
“You can keep it,” said Harry, laughing at how pleased Ron was. “Hagrid and my aunt and uncle – so who sent these?”
“I think I know who that one’s from,” said Ron, turning a bit pink and pointing to a very lumpy parcel. “My mom. I told her you didn’t expect any presents and – oh, no,” he groaned, “she’s made you a Weasley sweater.”
Harry had torn open the parcel to find a thick, hand-knitted sweater in emerald green and a large box of homemade fudge.
“Every year she makes us a sweater,” said Ron, unwrapping his own, “and mine’s always maroon.
“That’s really nice of her,” said Harry, trying the fudge, which was very tasty.
His next present also contained candy – a large box of Chocolate Frogs from Hermione.
This left only one parcel. Harry picked it up and felt it. It was very light. He unwrapped it.
Something fluid and silvery gray went slithering to the floor where it lay in gleaming folds, Ron gasped.
“I’ve heard of those,” he said in a hushed voice, dropping the box of Every Flavor Beans he’d gotten from Hermione. “If that’s what I think it is – they’re really rare, and really valuable.”
“What is it?” [snip]
“It’s an invisibility cloak,” said Ron a look of awe on his face… [snip]
“There’s a note!” said Ron suddenly…. [snip]
[I] Your father left this in my possession before he died. It is time it was returned to you. Use it well.
A Very Merry Christmas to you [/I] (PS/SS, Chapter 12: The Mirror of Erised, 200-202).

So for Harry’s first real Christmas he receives: A Flute from Hagrid, a token from his aunt and uncle, a Weasley sweater and candy, sweets from Hermione and the invisibility cloak from an anonymous gift giver. That isn’t including the “pack of non-explodable, luminous balloons, a Grow-Your-Own-Warts kit and his own new wizard chest set” from the Christmas Crackers at dinner (same chapter, 204).

Funnily enough a fair few of Harry’s presents turn up useful before the end. Harry uses Hagrid’s flute to play the three-headed – monster – I mean dog – Fluffy to sleep so that he and his friends can get to the Philosopher’s Stone (Chapter 16: Through the Trapdoor, 271, 275-6). Hermione’s seemingly innocuous gift of a box a chocolate allows the trio to unravel the mystery of Nicholas Flamel as it is from the last frog in the box that Neville pulls out the Dumbledore card and Harry finally remembers where he’s heard the famous alchemist’s name before (Chapter 13: Nicholas Flamel, 218-219). The anonymously given invisibility cloak allows Harry his first real glimpse at his family in the Mirror of Erised (Chapter 12: The Mirror of Erised, 207, 210, 212). The cloak also allows for Harry and Hermione to transport baby Norbert into obscurity -- though they stupidly forget it in the tower and get themselves caught by Filch (Chapter 14: Norbert The Norwegian Ridgeback, 239-41). And the trio uses that self-same cloak to try and beat Snape to the Philosopher’s Stone (Chapter 16: Through the Trapdoor, 271-5). And then the cloak continues to have its usefulness even after Harry’s first year. It becomes one of trio’s tools for mischief making.

The two other gifts, though not functional in a plot driving sort of way, are still of importance. The token from the Durselys’ (though not of any real monetary or sentimental value) still links Harry to household at #4, a tangible though pitiful annual reminder of the blood protection his mother’s sister’s family provides. The sweater on the other hand is a gift of warmth and love, a bestowing of familial love, the affectionate (though perhaps crude) reminder of the love, tenderness and sense of belonging the Weasley family harbors toward Harry. The sweater marks Harry as one of the family.

Harry re-gifts his fifty-pence piece, but otherwise we hear nothing else of Harry’s gift giving that year.

[b]Pleasures and Luxuries, second year gifts[/b]

[Hedwig] nibbled his ear in an affectionate sort of way, which was far better present than the one that she had brought him, which turned out to be from the Dursleys. They had sent Harry a toothpick and a note telling him to find out whether he’d be able to stay at Hogwarts for the summer vacation, too.
The rest of Harry’s Christmas presents were far more satisfactory. Hagrid had sent him a large tin of treacle fudge, which Harry decided to soften by the fire before eating. Ron had given him a book called [I]Flying with the Cannons[/I], a book of interesting facts about his favorite Quidditch team, and Hermione had bought him a luxury eagle-feather quill. Harry opened the last present to find a new, hand-knitted sweater from Mrs. Weasley and a large plum cake…. (COS, Chapter 12: The Polyjuice Potion, 212).

Again, no mention of what Harry’s given anyone, but Harry has been given quite a bit. He receives the traditional Weasley sweater and the obligatory Dursley offering. Hagrid gives him sweets. Ron’s gift proves to be rather popular with Harry as Harry’s read and re-read the volume “for the tenth time” by the time Christmas of fourth year arrives (GOF, Chapter 22: The Unexpected Task, 392). It is of course about Harry’s favorite sport and pastime in the wizarding world, Quidditch, a thoughtful gift appropriate for the sporting enthusiast. The book also serves as a distraction while Harry’s hold up on Privet Drive waiting for the boon of September to arrive (Chapter 2: The Scar, 18). Hermione’s eagle feather quill comes in handy – Harry uses it for homework in POA (Chapter 1: Owl Post, 1) and to write to Sirius in GOF (Chapter 2: The Scar, 22). It seems to serve as tangible and fond reminder of Hogwarts and the Wizarding World. It is interesting that it is an eagle feather quill, not pheasant nor peacock which we see in COS (Lockhart) and OotP (Hermione) – eagles as notable for their majesty, power and strength, plus the eagle is the other half of the fabled griffin (house namesake of Gryffindor). So Hermione’s gift is a mixture of practicality and symbolism.

Again, no mention of Harry’s gifts to his friends.

[b] Maurauder’s Gifts: The Map and Mysterious Broomsticks [/b]

Christmas third year brings gifts of mystery and mayhem. The Weasley twins bequeath a little early festive cheer to castle-bound Harry in their gift of the rather Marauder’s Map.

It was a map showing every detail of the Hogwarts castle and grounds. But the truly remarkable thing were the tiny ink dots and moving around it, each labeled with a name in minuscule writing….
This map showed a set of passages he had never entered. And many of them seemed to lead –
“Right into Hogsmeade,” said Fred… (POA, Chapter 10: The Marauder’s Map, 193).

This aid to Magical Mischief Makers allows Harry to sneak off to Hogsmeade for a bit of pre-Christmas merry making. Harry interrupts Ron and Hermione’s shopping for Harry’s Christmas gift, this years sweets again – luckily not the blood-flavored lollies or cockroach cluster they are considering. But the Map more regularly functions as means of transmitting helpful information, albeit mostly unintentionally. In its first use, Harry discovers that Sirius Black isn’t just a mass murdering raving lunatic, but his long lost godfather and parents best friend and ultimate betrayer (that this ultimately ends up to be false, doesn’t negate the map’s use as an information giving prop). The map continues to function as a means to get out of the castle until Snape confiscates the spare bit of parchment in a fit of temper. But the map is as useful to others as it is to Harry. Lupin uses the map to track Harry and his friends down to Hagrid’s hut the night Buckbeak is to be executed. The map also reveals that someone long thought to be dead is alive and well on the grounds. The true identity of Scabbers, Ron’s pet rat as Peter Pettigrew shows up on map and sends Lupin off on the chase. Lupin’s shock and surprise lead him to leave the map out, open and on in his office, so that Snape can use it to track the DADA professor and the three students he’s after. Ultimately Lupin returns the map to Harry who makes good use of it in fourth year – to sneak around the castle after hours to work out the clue to the second task, before the map gets confiscated once again. But before Moody takes possession of the map, it reveals one more secret – that of one Barty Crouch prowling about the castle. Of course the map doesn’t distinguish between persons of the same name (fathers and sons in this case) so the information that Crouch is in the castle is misread by Harry and his friends. But yet again the map functions to unmask a traitor in their mist. The map is of great use to the fake Moody as well – he uses to keep an eye on Barty Crouch, Senior – and in the end the junior Crouch uses the map to capture, conceal and then dispose of his father’s corpse. Somehow, Harry gets back the map between years four and five as the trio is using it to watch out for Umbridge when they set off for their very illegal Dumbldeore’s Army meetings in the Room of Requirement. So Fred and Georges little gift (which is linked to Harry’s past in the form of his father and friends) turns out to be quite the handy little item.

Harry of course receives yet another Weasley sweater – this time with a lion knitted on the front (another symbol from the Gryffindor namesake), as well as “a dozen home-backed mince pies, some Christmas cake, and a box of nut brittle” (POA, Chapter 11: The Firebolt, 222). But the present to beat all presents is the mysterious broomstick from nobody – the mighty Firebolt. In the mayhem that the broom’s arrival brings forth, all the rest of Christmas is forgotten. The fabulous broomstick – a dream broom, international standard, glorious and grand is confiscated by the indomitable Professor McGonagall on suspicion that this very good broom is but a gift from Sirius Black. Of course this does turn out to be the case in the end, the broom is 13 years worth of birthday presents, but at the time, the brooms confiscation causes a rift in the trio that takes months to heal. The broomstick becomes one of Harry’s most prized possessions – a broomstick to beat all broomsticks – a link to his godfather, to his father and to a pastime and escape Harry desperately needs (the loss of his broom and playing privileges hits Harry rather hard in OotP.

Again no mention of Harry’s gifts to anyone else.

[b]Socks, sweaters, penknives, and gasp – a book![/b]

Harry fourth Hogwarts brings an interesting development – gifts to and [I]from [/I]Harry this time. Mind you the smelly old mustard yellow socks he gifted to Dobby were his “oldest and foulest… and once belonged to Uncle Vernon” but Harry did give them to the elf.(GOF, chapter 23:The Yule Ball, 408). Ron also gifts to Dobby a bit of footwear – purple socks as well as his annual jumper (promised to Dobby ages ago). And gasp! Harry buys Ron a present – even after those omnioculars at the Quidditch World Cup – of course Ron thinks he’s paid Harry back for those, so he’s very pleased at his holiday gift.

Wow, Harry – “ He had just opened Harry’s present, a Chudley Cannon hat. “Cool!” He jammed it onto his head, where it clashed horribly with his hair (GOF same chapter, 409).

Notice that Harry does very intentionally give Ron a gift that recognizes Ron’s interests. The Chudley Cannon’s are of course Ron’s favorite Quidditch team (this recognition will be important later).
What does Harry receive for Christmas? Dobby gives him, what else? Socks –

The left sock was bright red and had a pattern of broomsticks upon it; the right sock was green with a pattern of Snitches.
“They’re… they’re really… well, thanks, Dobby,” said Harry, and he pulled them one, causing Dobby’s eyes to leak with happiness (same chapter, 409-10).

These socks actually are important to the story – Moody spots Harry wearing them at the ball later that evening – and Harry’s tale of the house elf provides the fake Moody with information on Dobby and his attachment to Harry. It is after all through Dobby that the fake Moody passes on the information about the Gillyweed that gets Harry through the second task.

Harry’s other presents were much more satisfactory than Dobby’s odd socks – with the obvious exception of the Dursleys’, which consisted of a single tissue an all-time low – Harry supposed that they to were remembering the Ton-Tongue Toffee. Hermione had given Harry a book called [I]Quidditch Teams of Britain and Ireland [/I]; Ron a bulging bag of Dungbombs; Sirius, a handy penknife with attachments to unlock any lock and undo any knot; and Hagrid a vast box of sweets including all of Harry’s favorites: Bertie Bott’s Every Flavor Beans, Chocolate Frogs, Drobble’s Best Blowing Gum, and Fizzing Whizbees. There was, also, of course, Mrs. Weasley’s usual package, including a new sweater (green with a picture of a dragon on it – Harry supposed Charlie had told her all about the Horntail), and a large quantity of homemade mince pies (same chapter 410).

Notice that Harry gets another book this year – again a Quidditch book – what other topic would Harry voluntarily read about at this stage? -- but still a book from Hermione (yes I am going somewhere with this book point just wait). He gets the lovely sweater again and sweets. I don’t want to know what he used Ron’s Dungbombs for (besides annoying the dickens out of Filtch). The penknife however is notable. This is the third in a series of mischief promoting gifts – the cloak in first years (his fathers), the map in third year (the marauders) and now the knife from his god father. And this is no ordinary knife – it can open any lock and undo any knot. It would have come in handy on that little sojourn in the lake during the second task, but Harry doesn’t get real use of the knife until fifth year when he uses it to break into Umbridges office not once but twice. The first time, Harry wants to talk about his Dad and try to make sense of what he saw in the pensieve. The second time Harry tries to find out if Sirius is at #12 or not. But the knife has one final use – the use that destroys it. Harry and company use it to try and open the locked door in the Department of Mysteries – but the door somehow melts the blade and destroys the knife. The force inside is far too powerful to be altered by mere metal alone.

[b][I]New Theories[/I] and the Unusual Present [/b]

I bet you were wondering when I was going to get to my shipping point, weren’t you?

I’m almost there – just a few moments longer to wait – and I’ll have the present I promised, ready to lay out.

Harry awoke on Christmas morning to find a stack of presents at the foot of his bed and Ron already half-way through opening his own, rather larger, pile.
“Good haul this year,” he informed Harry through a cloud of paper. “Thanks for the Broom Compass, its excellent, beats Hermione’s – she’s got me a [I]homework planner[/I] –”
Harry sorted through his presents and found one with Hermione’s handwriting on it. She had given him too a book that resembled a diary, except that it said things like [I]“Do it today or later you’ll pay!” [/I] every time he opened a page.
Sirius and Lupin had given Harry a set of excellent books entitled [I]Practical Defensive Magic and Its Uses Against the Dark Arts, [/I] which had superb, moving color illustrations of all the counter jinxes and hexes it described. Harry flicked through the first volume eagerly; he could see it was going to be highly useful in his plans for the DA. Hagrid had sent a furry brown wallet that had fangs, which were presumably an antitheft device, but unfortunately prevented Harry putting any money in without getting his fingers ripped off. Tonk’s present was a small, working model of a Firebolt, which Harry watched fly around the room, wishing he still had his full-size version; Ron had given him an enormous box of Every Flavor Beans; Mr. And Mrs. Weasely the usual hand-knitted jumper and some mince pies; a Dobby a truly dreadful painting Harry suspected had been done by the elf himself… [snip]
They got up and dressed, they could hear the various inhabitants of the house calling “Merry Christmas” to each other. On their way downstairs they met Hermione. “Thanks for the book, Harry!” she said happily. “I’ve been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume is really unusual, Ron.”
“No problem, “ said Ron… (OotP, Chapter 23: Christmas on the Closed Ward, 501-3).

Now the thing about Christmas presents is that their uses aren’t always immediately noticeable. Sure we all know what happened to the candy and pies – yum! And the wallet and painting probably went into the bottom of Harry’s trunk. Harry of course wore his Weasley sweater – at least once – as is tradition. He likely did make use of the DADA books from Lupin and Sirius – note again that their gift is encouraging rule breaking – in this case perpetuating the illegal DA group. We get reminded of Harry’s sadness over the loss of his Firebolt. Harry does do well by Ron and gets him a broom compass to go on his new broomstick. And we discover that the boys actually do buy Hermione presents – they may do this every year and on her birthday, too, but these gifts are never mentioned. But in this case the Hermione presents are interesting to say the least. First, Hermione gets both boys the same gift (I don’t think this is normal as I think the boys would have commented on the fact if she did usually give them the same gift). And this gift is not all together wanted – Ron doesn’t seem to thrilled about it – and Harry even thinks of popping the thing into the fire the next chance he gets – so I don’t think the boy’s were all that keen on her gift. The gift itself is quite practical – it is OWL year and the boys do need to study. Hermione just decided that her way – the organized and methodical method – would be good and appropriate for her two best friends. So books it is for the boys – work books – yep goes over like a lead balloon. This is the first time we get to see what the boys buy Hermione – the gifts to her are never itemized, so these must be important in some way – and here we get at last to the Christmas shipping point – actually two points.

Let’s start with Harry’s gift and Hermione’s response. What does Harry give his know-it-all book reading friend – gasp – a book! Big surprise. Yes, it’s a book on her favorite subject (see POA for her gushing on Arithmancy) – but it’s a bloody book. Not exactly original – Hermione and Ron have both given Harry books on Quidditch – Harry’s Arthimancy – and there was nothing shippy about those gifts – keeping in mind that Hermione’s gift is in third year, before all the hormones really kick in and well – there is nothing non-platonic going on between Ron and Harry. You would think that a book would be the best present for someone like Hermione – except for one thing – it is the easy present – the obvious – the given – and we all seem to forget what Dumbledore has to say regarding the giving and receiving of books way back in PS/SS.

“What do you see when you look in the mirror?”
“I?” I see myself holding a pair of thick, woolen socks.”
Harry stared.
“One can never have enough socks,” said Dumbledore. “Another Christmas has come and gone and I didn’t get a single pair. People will insist on giving me books.”
It was only when he was back in bed that it struck Harry that Dumbledore might not have been quite truthful. But then, he thought, as he shoved Scabbers off his pillow, it had been quite a personal question (Chapter 12: The Mirror of Erised 214).

Yes, I am making the comparison of Dumbledore and Hermione – why? Because Harry himself equates Hermione with the giving and getting of books. When he receives his large and rather heavy birthday package third year, he wrongly assumes that it “would be a large book full of very difficult spell” when it’s a broomstick servicing kit instead (POA, Chapter 1: Owl Post 12). But Hermione isn’t all about just getting/giving books – when Ron teases her that she should use her birthday money to buy “a nice book” she tells him “No, I don’t think so” (Chapter 4: The Leaky Cauldron, 57). So Hermione like Dumbledore isn’t always about books. Sure she’s happy when she gets them – just as Dumbledore is when he adds to his library. But what does Hermione really want? What is the gift she’s rather get –
This is a bit trickier – but the clue is in her response to Ron’s gift. See she and Ron had a series of very public, very vocal fights the Christmas last. Why? Partly because it’s “taken [him] three years to notice” Hermione “is a girl!” (GOF, Chapter 22: The Unexpected Task, 400). So what does Ron give her? Not the safe present, not the suspected gift, the book for the bookworm, the text for the reader. No, Ron gives her a gift – a special gift – one notable in the way it screams – “I know you’re a girl!” The perfume is a girl gift – and not just a any girl gift – an intimate girl gift – a personal girl gift – a hint, that he sees her as a girl, that he is interested in Hermione as a girl. That he in all likelihood fancies her (as perfume has strong fancy connotations thanks to Hagrid’s rather strong use of cologne to impress Madame Maximine in GOF – even Ron makes the he fancies her connection – Chapter 16: The Goblet of Fire, 266-7).

And here’s where we shippers get all divisive – in Hermione’s response to each boys gifts.

She is exclamatory over the book – she’s wanted it for ages – as she’s said – this is a gushing, exuberant sort of response.

And for Ron – his gift is “really unusual.”

Now some would have you believe that this response spells doom for Heron – that Hermione is very pointedly showing she isn’t interested in Ron’s gift or overtures. But I think that’s being just a bit hasty – Hermione may later use unusual to describe the Quibbler to Rita Skeeter – but keep in mind the tabloid has its uses, despite its rather seedy nature. So unusual may not necessarily equal a condemnation. But first before we get wrapped up in the unusual, let’s not forget the lovely “And” there – this links her sentiments about the perfume to that of the book. There is an implied Thank you, Ron in that conjunction. So we’re starting the sentence off on a positive note

Now normally I hate quoting the dictionary – I think it’s a bit silly – but this word is important – interesting – a clue – so instead of quoting the dictionary – let’s look at the synonyms – the other words that can stand in for “unusual” (thanks to MS Word Thesaurus):

Strange
Odd
Extraordinary
Abnormal
Remarkable
Bizarre
Atypical
Uncommon
Curious
Rare
Not ordinary

All of these words, with the exception of perhaps “bizarre” can carry positive meanings. There is nothing inherently negative about Hermione’s comment. Lets read it with the synonyms above. Try it out loud for best effect.

And that perfume is really _________________, Ron.

Strange – okay not perhaps a ringing endorsement – perhaps it smells funny.
Odd – not ordinary, not regular – true – the perfume is an odd gift for Ron to give – he’s certainly never given it before.
Extraordinary – I like this one – this one is very positive – beyond the expected
Abnormal – yes perfume is not a normal gift for Ron to give
Remarkable – oh, yes the perfume is definitely remarkable – in fact it’s the only gift Ron’s given to Hermione that is remarked upon.
Bizarre – even this one can spin positive – out of the ordinary doesn’t sound that bad.
Atypical – yep – certainly not the typical present – Ron favors sweets
Uncommon – now this could refer to the perfume itself or to the act of giving perfume – either way, not really negative and both possibly true
Curious – like Ollivander’s comment over Harry’s wand – the perfume certainly is curious – what is the connection, why does Ron give this to her, here and now. Yes. Definitely curious.
Rare – again can refer to the perfume or to the act – either equally possible – and rare isn’t a bad thing.
Not ordinary – again notable – for either the perfume itself or the act – not the everyday or the expected.

So the list doesn’t really come out bad – sure its not the easy hearty thank you Harry gets, but the perfume isn’t the easy gift to comment on. It is truly unusual in all senses of the word. Unusual enough to not get the usual Hermione response. Unusual enough to require a quick switch and diversion of topics. A gift that provokes a hint of uneasiness and imbalance, the unexpected, the unusual.

So at the end of all this – what’s my point really – don’t get all that excited about that book – it’s a very common gift amongst the trio – and even book worms can not live on books alone. And keep in mind that Christmas gifts – even the most innocuous tend to come cropping up in the most interesting of ways.

We may just be seeing that perfume again come July.

Until then – Happy Christmas to all.
And to all a good night.

Karen

[Deevo]

With the release date of HBP I think we've all been considering what specifically could happen in the next book along with what has happened in the first five. Here's my question for everyone: What will it take for your ship to really be sunk? For me, I think H/G has a chance in book VII if it doesn't appear here, but not a good one; R/H really needs to happen sometime during this book. I believe if there is any real romantic H/H interaction - real in they both interact that way knowing it's romantic - then Heron and Chocolate will both be more or less sunk. At the same time, without it I don't think there's any reasonable expectation for H/H to just happen in the seventh book.

But I'm interested in your views (all ships)!
It really depends more on what you define as your ship sailing. If your talking firm, long term relationships then whatever occurs at the end of book seven is still only going to have the main leads aged between sixteen and eighteen and any relationship we see at that time isn't going to be set in stone for the future anyway. IMO given this scenario the only way for a true sinking is for a character to die.

Of course this could be negated by my epilogue theory.
Of course Jo could always write a nice little epilogue for book seven with Grandpa Ron telling his bushy red haired granddaughter about the great wizarding war and how "your grandmother and I" fought back to back with with your cousin's famous grandfather Harry Potter. :p

[daz]

I dont know if you have all forgotten this but Luna Ginny and Neville followed Harry on s FAILED misson. And Harry even thought to himself that he did not want them to go. He did not think they where the best out of the DA. And he was right. It was a Falied mission. So this is not good. Harry needs people who will help him not hinder him. We have had 5 books off Ron, Hermione and Harry that wont change in the last 2 books. Neville is not the one. They will be in it but not as much as some of you think.

[Corbin Dallas]

I dont know if you have all forgotten this but Luna Ginny and Neville followed Harry on s FAILED misson. And Harry even thought to himself that he did not want them to go. He did not think they where the best out of the DA. And he was right. It was a Falied mission. So this is not good. Harry needs people who will help him not hinder him. We have had 5 books off Ron, Hermione and Harry that wont change in the last 2 books. Neville is not the one. They will be in it but not as much as some of you think.
Failed because Sirius died? You forget what dumbledore told Harry after the fact, that Harry should have known that there was never a need for him to g to the DOM at all, Dumbledore Failed and admits to it himself.
***I agree, Harry didn't want them to go, but now that they all survived and showed their loyalty to Harry, you think Harry's opinion of them changed, like it did with Hermione when she took the blame for the Troll in PS/SS? Personally I think so, get me ;) '-
CD

[LilypadLollipop]

Hey Corbin Dallas, i'm curious, what ship are you?

[daz]

He knows more about Ginny than we think he does.

Harry actually knows less about Ginny than we think he does. He forgot completely about her and the Chamber of secrets, it formed no greater bond between them .

I agree. And when Ron give him the look at end of OOTP there was no sign off a reaction from Harry.

Failed because Sirius died? You forget what dumbledore told Harry after the fact, that Harry should have known that there was never a need for him to g to the DOM at all, Dumbledore Failed and admits to it himself.
***I agree, Harry didn't want them to go, but now that they all survived and showed their loyalty to Harry, you think Harry's opinion of them changed, like it did with Hermione when she took the blame for the Troll in PS/SS? Personally I think so, get me ;) '-
CD


It failed because Ron got hurt. Hermione got hurt and ginny got hurt. So did Neville as well and on top of that Sirius died. All so Dung got hurt. I all so think Tonks got badly hurt.So it was a miss up from the word go.

Add up all the hurt people in book 1-4 then has never been so many people get hurt. Harry did not want them to go and they pushed and they got hurt. No other word than a utter Mess.

So i dont think Ginny & Luna where a help they where rubbish and Harry learnt a lesson. He wont be so quick to give in when people push him. They should not off been involved. And it showed.

[Corbin Dallas]

I agree. And when Ron give him the look at end of OOTP there was no sign off a reaction from Harry.




It failed because Ron got hurt. Hermione got hurt and ginny got hurt. So did Neville as well and on top of that Sirius died. All so Dung got hurt. I all so think Tonks got badly hurt.So it was a miss up from the word go.

Add up all the hurt people in book 1-4 then has never been so many people get hurt. Harry did not want them to go and they pushed and they got hurt. No other word than a utter Mess.

So i dont think Ginny & Luna where a help they where rubbish and Harry learnt a lesson. He wont be so quick to give in when people push him. They should not off been involved. And it showed.
First and Foremost. I'm a Choclateer, not it's Captain-That'd be IceKatt55- more like a Bowsman, but a supporter of the Hermione/Ron ship too :cool: ,
Second Daz,
1.)PS/SS-Ron and Harry were both hurt near death,
2.)Chamber- Gilderoy lost his Memories, probably for good
3.)Azkzaban-Ron broke his foot, lost his pet and Harry and Hermione were hurt by the Dementors as well as Sirius, Lupin transformed and Snape got some pain too(this is not necessarily a bad thing :tu: :evil: :tu: )
4.) Cedric died and Crouch Jr. Lost his soul
5.) Sirius died and many people got hurt from the first outright exchange of Hostilities between the Order and the Death Eaters
in all of the books there has always been someone getting hurt, yet our heros endure, the mission never existed at all because Riddle tricked Harry and that was Dumbledore's failur, he says as much.
KADH
very interesting posts, some good poiints, we Have Ron getting new Dress Robes, Hermione some perfume and Christmas seems to be a time of "Shippyness" in HP, wonder if there is a Christmas event in HBP. I've always believed that a Weasley Wedding may happen, hmmm, but anything is still possible, get me ;) '-
CD

[Deevo]

I dont know if you have all forgotten this but Luna Ginny and Neville followed Harry on s FAILED misson. And Harry even thought to himself that he did not want them to go. He did not think they where the best out of the DA. And he was right. It was a Falied mission. So this is not good. Harry needs people who will help him not hinder him. We have had 5 books off Ron, Hermione and Harry that wont change in the last 2 books. Neville is not the one. They will be in it but not as much as some of you think.
Failed perhaps but not for the reasons you are suggesting, they tackled adult Death Eaters and came out of it essentially whole and alive, given the situation I doubt any of the other DA members could have performed better.

Oh and did anyone notice who among the DA members came out of the battle the worst, Ron (deeply scarred) and Hermione (severely cursed). Neville got a broken nose, Ginny a broken (possible sprained) ankle and Luna apart from being knocked out was essentially uninjured. What does that say for the "weakest" of the DA?

Both Luna and Ginny, potentially influential characters for Harry's future IMO, fared this battle rather well. Even Neville is showing himself to be a lot more formidable that he appeared in the earlier works. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how we go from here.

[delemtri]

Hey guys,

I think I'm gonna take a break from shipping for a bit. Love you all. Yes, you. Happy holidays.

Snuggles,
Oliver

[snoopy_bombay]

I don't think H/G is possible

Failed perhaps but not for the reasons you are suggesting, they tackled adult Death Eaters and came out of it essentially whole and alive, given the situation I doubt any of the other DA members could have performed better.

Oh and did anyone notice who among the DA members came out of the battle the worst, Ron (deeply scarred) and Hermione (severely cursed). Neville got a broken nose, Ginny a broken (possible sprained) ankle and Luna apart from being knocked out was essentially uninjured. What does that say for the "weakest" of the DA?

Both Luna and Ginny, potentially influential characters for Harry's future IMO, fared this battle rather well. Even Neville is showing himself to be a lot more formidable that he appeared in the earlier works. I guess we'll just have to wait and see how we go from here.

I don't necessarily agree with that.Now I dunno about ron but the reason hermione got cursed badly because she was well into fighting the DE.That doesn't mean she isn't the best,it just means the DE saw her as a bigger threat than neville.Maybe the same happened with ron.

I honestly can't understand the fuss about ron's perfume gift to hermione

[FlyingPhoenix]

ETA: Harry's lying to Hermione, whether he feels badly about it or not, is precisely why they're not romantically compatible, IMO. How much of a strain do you think that would put on their marriage, in due course? Would he ever learn to face her nagging personality head-on, and be able to stand up to her without lying on occasion?

:lol: Do you listen to yourself? Now seriously you are compareing a 15 year old teenager with a 18 year old and up who is in a marriage. Don't you get a little bit suspicious about your own argument here? I would because this argument of yours shows very big flaws. It's known that 15 year old lie, they do lie to those they love. But between 15 and 17 exist the biggest change in a person he or she will ever go through in a lifetime. How can someone, anyone seriously argue that because Harry didn't show for you till 15 a romantical interest in a girl he had known since 11 that he ergo never will? Ever read David Copperfield? That guy wasn't interest till he turned 20 or even older. And guess in who he married in the end? His best female friend. Now you may guess whos favourite novel this might be.....right JKR.
It's even ironic that David did at first marry a crying girl, a weak girl (reminds at Cho) before he married this other girl/woman who was always at his site. You say that's not possible but Dickens disprof you. I rather agree with him.

BTW, how many lines can a signature be?

7 lines in the extend CoS-Forum vision this said I think this sig isn't after the rules, but do I have a blue name? Nah.

[jopotter]

I dont know if you have all forgotten this but Luna Ginny and Neville followed Harry on s FAILED misson. And Harry even thought to himself that he did not want them to go. He did not think they where the best out of the DA. And he was right. It was a Falied mission. So this is not good. Harry needs people who will help him not hinder him. We have had 5 books off Ron, Hermione and Harry that wont change in the last 2 books. Neville is not the one. They will be in it but not as much as some of you think.
Ginny, Neville and Luna, - I understand if Hary wanted to leave them out at first, they were never part of the adventures before this. But I expect these 3 will continue helping out Harry in book 6. It is kinda interesting however that Harry didn't want Hermione to follow him to the MoM.

'OK, then,' he said, a bright idea occurring,' Ron and I will take these two and go ahead, and Hermione can stay here with you three and she'll attract more Thestrals-'
'I'm not staying behind!' said Hermione furiously. (673,OotP)
Anyways...

It failed because Ron got hurt. Hermione got hurt and ginny got hurt. So did Neville as well and on top of that Sirius died. All so Dung got hurt. I all so think Tonks got badly hurt.So it was a miss up from the word go.

Add up all the hurt people in book 1-4 then has never been so many people get hurt. Harry did not want them to go and they pushed and they got hurt. No other word than a utter Mess.

So i dont think Ginny & Luna where a help they where rubbish and Harry learnt a lesson. He wont be so quick to give in when people push him. They should not off been involved. And it showed.
Well, things are getting more and more dangerous aren't they? And it's going to get worse too. The 'failed mission' was not caused by Neville, Ginny and Luna. All three played important roles especially Neville. Also, Ginny and Luna weren't 'rubbish'. Luna impressed me actually, she lasted longer than Hermione and Ginny only ended up with a twisted ankle before they were both stunned.

Oh and, Dung wasn't at the Ministry of Magic

[The Leprechaun]

I'm curious why are you that interest whether H/Hr is more popular as R/Hr? It's plain obvious that both ships are big both have a history where other ships did only cring about. I can't even say which ship is older, but I guess its H/Hr after all what I heard.
As for your polls, let use a bit of logic and lets try to think like a little girl/boy who is seriously interest in answereing this questions for the millions time then we got this questions: Which ship is going to happen? (I admint a stupid question but hey I'm not the one who made this polls)

1. R/hr
2 H/Hr and so on.

Let's say you are a H/hr shipper who think R/hr will happen first, for what are you voteing? Is this question aimed at book6 or on both remaining books? Lets assume you understand this question as: Which ship is going to happen next?
Viola, you vote R/Hr.

A very truthful poll, and very useful in a debate for heaven's sake.

I didn't bring up the popularity issue. I try to stay away from that part of the debate, because of slightly shaky evidence either way.

Yes, and if I'm not mistaken I asked you before what hole is it?
One of the most subtle but interesting Hr---H clues is that one where Hermione is the only one in the whole common room who is annoyed by Big Harry pic. We should look at this passage:

He unrolled it to see his own face grinning sheepishly at him from the front cover.

At first we read how Harry descripe this cover. It's kind of important that JKR let Harry describe it.

Harry was a hero in the Gryffindor common room that night. Daringly, Fred and George had put an Enlargement Charm on the front cover of The Quibbler and hung it on the wall, so that Harry's giant head gazed down upon the proceedings, occasionally saying things like THE MINISTRY ARE MORONS' and 'EAT DUNG, UMBRIDGE' in a booming voice. Hermione did not find this very amusing; she said it interfered with her concentration, and she ended up going to bed early out of irritation.

Which reason should JKR have to mention or write that only Hermione of all Gryffindors wasn't amused by a giant Harry who grins sheepisly? I find this very amusing :p

The hole is the whole Hermione is helping Harry get together with and stay with Cho. Yes, I realize that she didn't go up to Cho and tell her that there was nothing, but I'm pretty sure she didn't think that it was necessary. A few Hermione to Ron moments. The lack of any really big things that could only be described as her showing romantic interest in Harry. There are probably a few more.

For the second part, this is Hermione obviously getting annoyed at all the comments (ont the picture of Harry) and it's probable disturbance in her studying and homework.

Another point would be that even it seems Harry isn't listening, he remembers Hermione's ideas pretty well, scary like well.

'I've got a feeling Umbridge has only just started being horrible,' said Hermione darkly.

Later after Harry had his first lesson with Firenze and is by Hagrid:

'Hagrid, what're you up to?' asked Harry seriously. 'Because you've got to be careful, Umbridge has already sacked Trelawney and, if you ask me, she's on a roll. If you're doing anything you shouldn't be, you'll be — '


This isn't so much him remembering as him knowing Umbridge doesn't like Hagrid and Hagrid's usual antics will probably get him fired.

I might add that Harry didn't even response in this conservation earlier yet he remembers, he did even remember a spell only once done by Hermione dueing a raining, storming quidditch game. This is to me very strange for a boy who don't remember everything.

His priority did not seem to be to teach them what he knew, but rather to impress upon them that nothing, not even centaurs' knowledge, was foolproof.

This one you can mark with big red marks because that's to me the only reason why this lesson exist because it's prepareing not only Harry but the readers too that Dumbledore and his understanding of the Prophecy is wrong.

For the Quidditch thing. Huh? Harry remembered a charm to make it so he could keep the rain of his glasses. How this relates to shipping, beyond Hermione giving him the spell in the first place, in any way.

For the second one, okay I don't get how it relates.

[EmilyRose]

I love the Christmas present essay--well done, and well researched!

Onwards to the posts I feel obligated to argue against. The mission was not a failure because of the people that went with Harry to the MoM. It was a failure because of Harry.

The mission should never have happened. Harry was duped.

Had Harry listened to the people around him--not just Hermione, Ron voiced concern as well (though he let Hermione speak because she has always been more capable of explaining), the mission would not have failed. When Harry decided to go for it, they helped him--but it was the -choice- to go on that misguided mission that set up its collosal failure.

A lot of ink has been spilled over this section of OoTP, and whether it was Hermione 'reasoning Harry out of his rage' by herself. Ron's silence is interpreted in a hundred different ways, most often by H/Hr shippers.

When has Ron ever tried to talk Harry out of doing something that will get them in trouble? Ron is typically either silent, or supportive, of Harry's rule breaking. His original voicing of "But--Harry..." is therefore significant. His being convinced far before Hermione, however, is not--that is the dynamic of the Harry/Ron friendship. The Harry/Ron/Hermione trio is based on Hermione being the voice of reason.

If we agree that Harry is therefore the reason for the failure of the mission, displacing any blame onto the rest of the group--Ginny, Neville and Luna--is ridiculous. They came in only -after- the argument of whether they should go.

[stic]

Icekat55 wrote: Yep. Harry & Ginny are just starting out. I believe that they'll begin a real friendship, get to know each other, and fall in love.And how do you expect will we see Harry making that last step , i.e. beginining to fall in love with Ginny?
Do you expect Ginny to replace the voice of Harry's conscience? :rotfl: Do you expect Harry to unconsciously choose to physically protect Ginny of all others in a split-second decision? :huh:
Do you expect Ginny to become that one person Harry relies on more than on anybody else? Do you expect Ginny to create a DADA-Army where Harry's DADA and leader-talents can grow and be shared? Do you expect Ginny to learn from Harry how to turn around a hopeless situation (like being captive of somebody like Umbridge and her fascist lil' helpers) when Harry is "about are a nanosecond from being tortured"?
Harry & Hermione have had 5 years together and those 5 years have seen their friendship change and deepen, certainly. Is romance impossible? No. Highly unlikely? IMO, yes. Funny that at the same time Jo gave Hermione the last thing she needed to be complete and turned her into a "pretty" girl, Harry was in love with Cho. Funny that Harry and Hermione grew even more together until the end of OotP while Harry had this thing with Cho. Funny that Hermione has always been more important to him than Cho the whole time. Funny that Cho could never get more important for Harry than Hermione.

Funny that H/Cho was over at the end of the last book.
They've already gotten know each other very well, and there are no real mysteries between them, no 'voyage of discoveries', if you will. There is always something new with Hermione. She's the one who can surprise Harry and anybody else endlessly. Boom, she's arranged an interview where Harry can spread the truth to the world, boom-she has an idea for a DADA group, boom-she tricks Umbridge and turns around a hopeless situation just like that and prevents Harry from torture,.....
What else does Harry need to know or discover about Hermione in order to fall in love with her?Nothing.
Doesn't he have a pretty good idea of what she's all about by now? And vice-versa?Yes.
And yet, nothing has sparked...Other people think different. If she wants to suddenly do an about-face and throw Harry & Hermione together, and make it believable while at the same time resolving the R/Hr dynamic that she has been building steadily for 2+ books, then she'd best get a real move on it! From where I'm standing, Jo must now only give Harry that realization because Hermione has been in love with Harry for quite some time. :tu:
All Jo needs to do with the R/Hr "dynamic" is to write Ron making the big move and getting turned down. :tu:

[noodle]

Icekat55 wrote: And how do you expect will we see Harry making that last step , i.e. beginining to fall in love with Ginny?
Do you expect Ginny to replace the voice of Harry's conscience? :rotfl: Do you expect Harry to unconsciously choose to physically protect Ginny of all others in a split-second decision? :huh:
Do you expect Ginny to become that one person Harry relies on more than on anybody else? Do you expect Ginny to create a DADA-Army where Harry's DADA and leader-talents can grow and be shared? Do you expect Ginny to learn from Harry how to turn around a hopeless situation (like being captive of somebody like Umbridge and her fascist lil' helpers) when Harry is "about are a nanosecond from being tortured"?
Funny that at the same time Jo gave Hermione the last thing she needed to be complete and turned her into a "pretty" girl, Harry was in love with Cho. Funny that Harry and Hermione grew even more together until the end of OotP while Harry had this thing with Cho. Funny that Hermione has always been more important to him than Cho the whole time. Funny that Cho could never get more important for Harry than Hermione.

Funny that H/Cho was over at the end of the last book.
There is always something new with Hermione. She's the one who can surprise Harry and anybody else endlessly. Boom, she's arranged an interview where Harry can spread the truth to the world, boom-she has an idea for a DADA group, boom-she tricks Umbridge and turns around a hopeless situation just like that and prevents Harry from torture,.....
Oh. My. God.
Talk about over-hyping something! LOL

Seriously, I don't even know how to argue anymore because people are obviously so invested in their ships that I doubt anything I (or any1 else) says will change their minds!
All I want right now is for HBP to be released and hope it'll end the H/Hr vs R/Hr "battle" once and for all!

[Tzigone]

uhhhm, I agree with your assessment as it is mine, I'm not sure what post you're referring to where I said these things,so you know I'm a Chocolateer, a supporter of Harry/Ginny shipping and Order for me was the biggest step towards an actual, mature romance between Harry and Ginny, perceptions of each other changed, which is more than I can say for Harmony, get me ;) '-
CD
The "Everyone's after the wrong people or in love with the wrong people" quotes have always been about the Trio, Harry, Ron and Hermione, Jo even says so in the quotes :rolleyes:


Then I probably read the wrong name when I was replying to a post. I'm afraid I frequently get into a hurry and make large mistakes. I do apologize.

[stic]

noodle wrote: Oh. My. God.
Talk about over-hyping something! LOL I concede that you then also disagree that Ginny's one little library-moment in OotP is anything special.
Or do you want to "over-hype" that? :)

[jopotter]

Do you expect Ginny to replace the voice of Harry's conscience? Do you expect Harry to unconsciously choose to physically protect Ginny of all others in a split-second decision?
Do you expect Ginny to become that one person Harry relies on more than on anybody else? Do you expect Ginny to create a DADA-Army where Harry's DADA and leader-talents can grow and be shared? Do you expect Ginny to learn from Harry how to turn around a hopeless situation (like being captive of somebody like Umbridge and her fascist lil' helpers) when Harry is "about are a nanosecond from being tortured"?
See, what makes you think that there's a romantic reason why Hermione did all these things? Why is it such a surprise that Hermione came up with these solutions anyway? Hermione always comes up with ideas, since book 1. So what? She is the smartest of the three after all and she helps people all the time. Why shouldn't she do all she can to help Harry, who is one of her best friends? And who better to come up with these ideas? Honestly, even if Ginny did all those things that Hermione did (mentioned above) I don't think that those are reasons that shows Ginny loves Harry romantically. It does show that she is a good friend who's doing all she can to help another friend, which is what Hermione is doing.

[IceKat55]

Sorry I'm late getting back on this one - -

Feeling bad about it makes all the difference. Like it or not, people lie to their friends; either by omission or otherwise. As this is all from Harry's POV, we don't know when other people lie, so that sorta makes Harry's deceptions bigger. And Harry isn't romantically interested in Hermione in book 5 (At least not consciously) so he would lie to her so she doesn't think less of him. You can't hold teenagers up to idealistic standards; it just doesn't happen.

And I'd be much, much more wary of a convincing and unscrupulous liar than an obvious and hesitent one.
Friend to friend, agreed. Husband to wife, that enters a whooooole other territory of nastiness. If Harry can't/won't learn to deal with and face Hermione head-on with her nagging & badgering ways, then any kind of romantic partnership between them will not be successful. Pretty much a cold, hard fact, IMO. :)

I'm not sure if there is enough evidence in book 4 (Ginny has hardly any lines) to say that she still has a crush on Harry. However, as she has no boyfriend (That we know of) until book 5 (When she is supposedly getting over Harry) it could be assumed that she still has a crush, or at least the remnants of one, during the Yule Ball. However, that is quite a long time to have a crush, so I can't say for sure either way. (Though Ron has been holding his crush for awhile now, too) I Don't have my GOF on me right now, so if you could show some excerpts of where you see G====>H in the book, post em.
Sorry, but 'not enough evidence'? 'No boyfriend'? I don't think you've paid very close attention to Miss Ginny... :)

All bolded areas mine.

From GoF: Weasleys’ Wizard Wheezes
Then two girls appeared in the kitchen doorway behind Mrs. Weasley. One, with very bushy brown hair and rather large front teeth, was Harry’s and Ron’s friend, Hermione Granger. The other, who was small and red-haired, was Ron’s younger sister, Ginny. Both of them smiled at Harry, who grinned back, which made Ginny go scarlet – she had been very taken with Harry ever since his first visit to the Burrow.

From GoF: The Unexpected Task
"...but she was wasting her time. He’s going with Cho Chang.”

Ron looked up.

“I asked her to go with me just now,” Harry said dully, “and she told me.”

Ginny had suddenly stopped smiling.

From GoF: The Unexpected Task
“Right,” said Ron, who looked extremely put out, “this is getting stupid. Ginny, you can go with Harry, and I’ll just--"

“I can’t,” said Ginny, and she went scarlet too. “I’m going with - with Neville. He asked me when Hermione said no, and I thought…well…I’m not going to be able to go otherwise, I’m not in fourth year.” She looked extremely miserable. “I think I’ll go and have dinner,” she said, and she got up and walked off to the portrait hole, her head bowed.

From OotP: In The Hog's Head
'He's WHAT?' spluttered Ron, outraged, his ears now resembling curls of raw beef. 'She's going out with - my sister's going - what d'you mean, Michael Corner?'

'Well, that's why he and his friends came, I think - well, they're obviously interested in learning defence, but if Ginny hadn't told Michael what was going on-'

'When did this - when did she -?'

'They met at the Yule Ball and got together at the end of last year', said Hermione composedly.

Okay, here's the response: From what I remember, Ginny stuck to her original date even when Harry asked her, so I think she's almost completely over her crush. She did appear flustered, but that's expected. I don't think the quote applies in her case.
Considerably more than 'flustered'. Ginny's still obviously crushing, as of Yule Ball time, mid-GoF. We later learn that, while at the Yule Ball (immediately after the heartbreak of learning that Harry is crushing on some other girl), she meets Michael Corner, and they date for a full year. She presumably begins to grow out of her crush on Harry during that time, and as of the beginning of OotP, she has no trouble looking Harry directly in the eye, and speaking to him.

Ginny has more character development than just about anyone, from mid-GoF to the end of OotP. Just because we (through Harry's eyes) don't see it first hand, doesn't mean it isn't happening. Ginny's growing up nicely. And Rowling's purpose for her has yet to be revealed...but I'm sure it'll be a good one!!! :D

This isn't good for H/G, however, as it shows that Ginny isn't interested in Harry like she used to be.
And I think it's better for H/G, as it shows her silly, insignificant little schoolgirl crush is gone, and she can now get to know Harry (and vice versa) on a more real, grown-up level.

[lightinthedark]

i think harry n ginny is what jk was originaly going for and i think she'll develop it in hbp

[stic]

jopotter wrote: See, what makes you think that there's a romantic reason why Hermione did all these things? It is not as simple as that. Icekat55 explained how she expects a gradual H/G developement from building a solid friendship, then deepening that friendhip excessively and then realizing it's love.
After book 5 Harry and Ginny barely have made friends with each other and Ginny's friendship does not exceed those Harry has with Luna or Neville or the twins. :td:
There is absolutely nothing special written by Jo. :td:
As we Harmonians perceive H/Hr, they are an inch from the last step, that is, only Harry is one inch from the last step.
When I argue for example: Nothing, not even Cho could come between Harry and his Hermy, it's true.
Jo showed Harry forming a leading/fighting duo with Hermione (The Potters and the Longbottoms were such duos-they have defied LV thrice), Jo showed Hermione being the person Harry relies the most on,.....

There I can see how this friendship is likely to turn into more.
Honestly, even if Ginny did all those things that Hermione did (mentioned above) I don't think that those are reasons that shows Ginny loves Harry romanticallyOh, good! You're another person who believes then that Ginny is not interested in Harry anymore! Hence Ginny in the library in OotP acted completely free of any romantic motives! :eyebrows:

Icekat55 wrote: If Harry can't/won't learn to deal with and face Hermione head-on with her nagging & badgering ways Hermione has almost always been right with being persistent and persuasive!

[Heatherhobbit]

All Jo needs to do with the R/Hr "dynamic" is to write Ron making the big move and getting turned down. :tu:
No, it's not quite that simple. Ron doesn't react well when he's rejected. He takes it pretty hard.

Chapter 22, GOF
Entering the common room, Harry looked around, and to his surprise he
saw Ron sitting ashen-faced in a distant corner. Ginny was sitting with him,
talking to him in what seemed to be a low, soothing voice.
"What's up, Ron?" said Harry, joining them.
Ron looked up at Harry, a sort of blind horror in his face.
"Why did I do it?" he said wildly. "I don't know what made me do it!
"What?" said Harry.
"He — er — just asked Fleur Delacour to go to the ball with him," said
Ginny. She looked as though she was fighting back a smile, but she kept
patting Ron's arm sympathetically.
"You what?" said Harry.
"I don't know what made me do it!" Ron gasped again. "What was I
playing at? There were people — all around — I've gone mad — everyone
watching! I was just walking past her in the entrance hall — she was
standing there talking to Diggory — and it sort of came over me — and I
asked her!"
Ron moaned and put his face in his hands. He kept talking, though the
words were barely distinguishable.
"She looked at me like I was a sea slug or something. Didn't even answer.
And then — I dunno — I just sort of came to my senses and ran for it."

Ron only asked Fleur because he fell for her Veela charms. He was not emotionally invested in her, yet he is still devastated that she turned him down. He's embarrassed and horrified--all from an encounter that he wasn't planning.

In Book 5 Ron did make a move.

"Thanks for the book, Harry" she said happily. "I've been wanting that New Theory of Numerology for ages! And that perfume's really unusual, Ron."
"No problem," said Ron. "Who's that for, anyway?" he added, nodding at the
neatly wrapped present she was carrying.

This was an attempt to show Hermione that in his eyes she's a girl. This is a move, albeit a lame one. It would have been so much easier to get her a book like Harry did, or candy like they've exchanged in the past. Instead he took a chance and gave her something that is dripping with romantic connotations. Her acknowledgement of the gift was ambiguous, at best. So he played it off with a "No problem." and quickly changed the subject. This isn't the first time that Ron's changed tack at the speed of light in a situation where his true feelings could potentially be revealed.


Chapter 23, GOF
Hermione looked as though Ron had slapped her. When she spoke, her
voice quivered.
"For your information, he hasn't asked me one single thing about Harry,
not one—"
Ron changed tack at the speed of light.
"Then he's hoping you'll help him find out what his egg means! I suppose
you've been putting your heads together during those cozy little library
sessions—"

This is a defense mechanism that Ron uses to protect his heart from being broken. He only gives enough to show the reader he's interested but not enough to be clear to Hermione. When she is non receptive he immediately draws back and changes the subject. We also have to remember that Hermione was originally not going to be with the Weasleys for Christmas so she would have received her gift while on skiing holiday with her parents. I honestly don't think Ron was planning on seeing her the same day she got the gift when he decided to give it to her. He's so passive-aggressive when it comes to Hermione. He needs to be proactive in pursuing her like Viktor was. That's what she wants, needs, and expects.


Rowling can't just change the R/Hr dynamic so drastically. It would be anti-climatic. Ron and Hermione are best friends, and they see each other everyday. To make it realistic Rowling can't just dismiss Ron's feelings like that, especially if Hermione is in love with Harry. Ron is a deeper character than that. His emotional issues are part of his character development.

He couldn't bear to even face Fleur after being rejected by her.

"It is too 'eavy, all zis 'Ogwarts food," they heard her saying grumpily as
they left the Great Hall behind her one evening (Ron skulking behind Harry,
keen not to be spotted by Fleur). "I will not fit into my dress robes!"

He bent his knees slightly to hide behind Harry, because Fleur Delacour
was passing, looking stunning in robes of silver-gray satin, and accompanied
by the Ravenclaw Quidditch captain,

He tapped Ron on the shoulder and jerked his head toward them,
meaning that they could easily sneak off that way without being noticed
(Fleur and Davies looked very busy to Harry), but Ron, eyes widening in
horror at the sight of Fleur, shook his head vigorously, and pulled Harry
deeper into the shadows behind the reindeer.

If Ron reacted like this to a girl to whom he had no emotional attachment, just imagine how devastated he would be to be rejected by someone that he's cared for very deeply for several years. I'm not saying that this is a reason for them to end up together; I'm saying the resolution of the R/Hr dynamic isn't as simple as you think it is.

[Corbin Dallas]

Field: Do you plan for Ginny to take on a major character role in the next two books?
JK Rowling replies -> Well, now that Ginny has stopped being mute in Harry's presence I think you can see that she is a fairly forceful personality (and she always has been, remember Ron saying that she 'never shuts up' in Chamber of Secrets)?
http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrwbd.shtml
just for you IceKatt55, Oh Captain my Captain, seems Ginny will have atleast a non muted personality...
Forceful-adj 1: characterized by or full of force or strength (often but not necessarily physical); "a forceful speaker"; "a forceful personality"; "forceful measures"; "a forceful plan for peace" [ant: forceless] 2: forceful and definite in expression or action; "the document contained a particularly emphatic guarantee of religious liberty" [syn: emphatic]
... as I remember it Ron says she usually doesn't shut up but we know how thick Ron is when it comes to girls, :rotfl: , but a strong character sounds like Ginny to me and we get more of her too :tu: :cool: :tu: , can't wait for July, get me ;) '-
CD

[FlyingPhoenix]

Honestly, even if Ginny did all those things that Hermione did (mentioned above) I don't think that those are reasons that shows Ginny loves Harry romantically. It does show that she is a good friend who's doing all she can to help another friend, which is what Hermione is doing.

If Ginny had done all this in canon what Hermione had done for Harry H/G shipper did claim just like R/Hr that their ship is canon and everybody else who claims otherwise were in deep denial.

Anyway how comes that people support H/G though like you say Ginny is just being a friend how is that a hint for H/G?

[IceKat55]

:lol: Do you listen to yourself? Now seriously you are compareing a 15 year old teenager with a 18 year old and up who is in a marriage. Don't you get a little bit suspicious about your own argument here? I would because this argument of yours shows very big flaws. It's known that 15 year old lie, they do lie to those they love.
:rolleyes: My entire point is this: I do not believe that Harry will ever either a) be able to or b) want to deal with a very strong side of Hermione's personality.

The lying is only part of it. He avoids her. He attempts to block out her voice. He does not like confrontations with her, and would rather bury his head in the sand than face her head-on, as Ron does. That's not something I ever see Harry 'growing out of'. He grew up with badgering relatives, and he does not respond to it well. I think Rowling is simply showing us that Harry and Hermione have incompatible personalities that would clash and never allow them to pair up in a successful, open, and sharing relationship.

Alternatively, Ron grew up with a loving mother who also nags and badgers. He is quite used to it, and it's not a negative thing, in Ron's world. He can handle Hermione. He faces that side of her nature head-on, and can deal with it. They are open and honest with each other. Much more compatible, IMO.

[Mirtilla]

I think talking about the three of them - Ginny, Neville, and Luna - is important to this discussion because they all talk to Harry about something Ron and Hermione don't really help with - about Sirius. Neville talks to him about Sirius *right* after the death and Luna a good deal later. Ginny talks to him about Sirius when Sirius is still alive. I think this is reflective of the personalities of the second trio - or at least of Ginny - she's very much representative of life.

I’m afraid to tell you that you’re completely wrong here. Actually Hermione talks about Sirius with Harry, I’d say that Hermione is the one that understands Sirius better than anyone else.

OotP, Chapter 18, Dumbledore’s Army, pg. 335, UK Edition | pg. 377-378, US Edition:
“‘Let’s get this straight,’ said Harry angrily, as they put their bags back on the floor, ‘Sirius agrees with us, so you don’t think we should do it any more?’
Hermione looked tense and rather miserable. Now staring at her own hands, she said, ‘Do you honestly trust his judgement?’
‘Yes, I do!’ said Harry at once. ‘He’s always given us great advice!’
An ink pellet whizzed past them, striking Katie Bell squarely in the ear. Hermione watched Katie leap to her feet and start throwing things at Peeves; it was a few moments before Hermione spoke again and it sounded as though she was choosing her words very carefully.
‘You don’t think he has become … sort of … reckless … since he’s been cooped up in Grimmauld Place? You don’t think he’s … kind of … living through us?’
‘What d’you mean, “living through us”?’ Harry retorted.
‘I mean … well, I think he’d love to be forming secret Defence societies right under the nose of someone from the Ministry … I think he’s really frustrated at how little he can do where he is … so I think he’s keen to kind of … egg us on.’
Ron looked utterly perplexed.
‘Sirius is right,’ he said, ‘you do sound just like my mother.’
Hermione bit her lip and did not answer

As you see Hermione talks very freely with Harry about Sirius, what is even more interesting is that her words have an impact on Harry, in fact, later, he rethinks about what she said:

OotP, Chapter 18, Dumbledore’s Army, pg. 340-341, UK Edition | pg. 383-384, US Edition:
“These plantes are moste efficacious in the inflaming of the braine, and are therefore much used in Confusing and Befuddlement Draughts, where the wizard is desirous of producing hot-headedness and recklessness …
… Hermione said Sirius was becoming reckless cooped up in Grimmauld Place …
… moste efficacious in the inflaming of the braine, and are therefore much used …
… the Daily Prophet would think his brain was inflamed if they found out that he knew what Voldemort was feeling …

Hermione showed to understand Sirius better than anyone else, and she freely spoke with Harry about him, something that not Ginny, not Luna, not Neville, not Ron did. Luna never really talk with Harry about Sirius, Luna talked about Death but not about Sirius- she couldn’t, as she doesn’t know him. That said, Harry never open his soul to Luna, he listened to her but he never answered or showed his feelings. As for Ginny, she didn’t event try to talk with Harry about Sirius after the death and she never talked with Harry about what Sirius could possibly do, she only told Harry how to talk with Sirius without bothering to think if it was safe for Harry to do such a thing. Indeed, the only one who showed a genuine concern for Sirius is, once again, how dear Hermione.

ETA: Harry's lying to Hermione, whether he feels badly about it or not, is precisely why they're not romantically compatible, IMO. How much of a strain do you think that would put on their marriage, in due course? Would he ever learn to face her nagging personality head-on, and be able to stand up to her without lying on occasion?

No wonders why people write rants like “I feel sorry for JKR because…” :lol:

- Mirtilla

[stic]

I wrote:Originally Posted by stic
All Jo needs to do with the R/Hr "dynamic" is to write Ron making the big move and getting turned down.
Heatherhobbit answered: No, it's not quite that simple. Ron doesn't react well when he's rejected. He takes it pretty hard. I said it would be simple to write it, meaning Jo would resolve the red-herrings and be done with her twist.

I have no doubt that Jo would write the character Ron reacting hurt and angry. :scared:
Chapter 23, GOF
Hermione looked as though Ron had slapped her. When she spoke, her
voice quivered.
"For your information, he hasn't asked me one single thing about Harry,
not one—"
Ron changed tack at the speed of light.
"Then he's hoping you'll help him find out what his egg means! I suppose
you've been putting your heads together during those cozy little library
sessions—"

This is a defense mechanism that Ron uses to protect his heart from being broken. He only gives enough to show the reader he's interested but not enough to be clear to Hermione That doesn't make much sense to me. All Ron has shown to Hermione and to us readers was that he didn't believe Hermione could get a date with somebody else than "loser" Neville; and that when Hermy then had suddenly one of the top 3 dates of the evening Ron suspected foul play on Krum's side. :grumble:
He expressed how impossible it is that Krum would date Hermione for Hermione's sake and not for the sake of spying on Harry through her to win the TWT. Ron is playing detective here and interrogates Hermione for the "crimes" he thinks she's comitted against him, Harry and Hogwarts for attention-seeking motives.
Exactly like he did it with Harry after he'd been nominated 4th champion.
Rowling can't just change the R/Hr dynamic so drastically. It would be anti-climatic Not really. The R/Hr climax would be: Ron making the big move and earning the big "no". :td:
If Ron reacted like this to a girl to whom he had no emotional attachment, just imagine how devastated he would be to be rejected by someone that he's cared for very deeply for several yearsExactly.

[FlyingPhoenix]

My entire point is this: I do not believe that Harry will ever either a) be able to or b) want to deal with a very strong side of Hermione's personality.

:rotfl: My entire point would be that you deny Harry flat out anything whats close to growing up. I suspect you expect that Harry with 17 will be the same as with 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15, that's a sad view.

[IceKat55]

And how do you expect will we see Harry making that last step , i.e. beginining to fall in love with Ginny?
Do you expect Ginny to replace the voice of Harry's conscience? :rotfl: Do you expect Harry to unconsciously choose to physically protect Ginny of all others in a split-second decision? :huh:
Do you expect Ginny to become that one person Harry relies on more than on anybody else? Do you expect Ginny to create a DADA-Army where Harry's DADA and leader-talents can grow and be shared? Do you expect Ginny to learn from Harry how to turn around a hopeless situation (like being captive of somebody like Umbridge and her fascist lil' helpers) when Harry is "about are a nanosecond from being tortured"?
Absolutly. If Rowling writes it, I will believe it hook, line & sinker. Hermione will always be important to Harry, just as equally as Ron will. So why does that have to mean that no one else can enter his line of sight? Hmmmm...Cho did, albeit briefly... :huh:

Funny that at the same time Jo gave Hermione the last thing she needed to be complete and turned her into a "pretty" girl, Harry was in love with Cho. Funny that Harry and Hermione grew even more together until the end of OotP while Harry had this thing with Cho. Funny that Hermione has always been more important to him than Cho the whole time. Funny that Cho could never get more important for Harry than Hermione.

Funny that H/Cho was over at the end of the last book.
Funny that Harry never gave Hermione's 'very pretty' appearance another thought or mention after that night.

Harry & Hermione have always been close, as I've read it. They didn't grow any closer in book 5 than Harry & Ron did. Their friendship continued to flourish, they faced new and larger dangers, and they had many more obstacles to overcome. Hermione's brains were working overtime, most definitely. But there were no romantic sparks for them, IMO. Just a normal year in the life of Harry Potter. ;)

There is always something new with Hermione. She's the one who can surprise Harry and anybody else endlessly. Boom, she's arranged an interview where Harry can spread the truth to the world, boom-she has an idea for a DADA group, boom-she tricks Umbridge and turns around a hopeless situation just like that and prevents Harry from torture,.....
All examples of her showing her resourcefulness and cleverness. Harry has known that since book 1. Next?

Other people think different. From where I'm standing, Jo must now only give Harry that realization because Hermione has been in love with Harry for quite some time.
Matter of opinion, and we'll clearly never agree on this point. :D

All Jo needs to do with the R/Hr "dynamic" is to write Ron making the big move and getting turned down.
:lol: Is it July yet?!

http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrwbd.shtml
just for you IceKatt55, Oh Captain my Captain, seems Ginny will have atleast a non muted personality...
Forceful-adj 1: characterized by or full of force or strength (often but not necessarily physical); "a forceful speaker"; "a forceful personality"; "forceful measures"; "a forceful plan for peace" [ant: forceless] 2: forceful and definite in expression or action; "the document contained a particularly emphatic guarantee of religious liberty" [syn: emphatic]
... as I remember it Ron says she usually doesn't shut up but we know how thick Ron is when it comes to girls, :rotfl: , but a strong character sounds like Ginny to me and we get more of her too :tu: :cool: :tu: , can't wait for July, get me ;) '-
CD
:clap: :clap: I can't wait!!

:rotfl: My entire point would be that you deny Harry flat out anything whats close to growing up. I suspect you expect that Harry with 17 will be the same as with 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15, that's a sad view.
Something is getting lost in the translation, you're clearly not understanding what I'm trying to say....so, we'll agree to (yet again!) disagree. :)

[stic]

Icekat55 wrote:Alternatively, Ron grew up with a loving mother who also nags and badgers. He is quite used to it, and it's not a negative thing, in Ron's world Molly's attitude towards all her children is: Behave, do nothing against the rules, earn school success and everything will be alright, the grown-ups will take care of the rest.

Which, since book1, has been a deadly attitude in the Potterverse.
Hermione is in that regard so much different, she takes whatever matters into her own hands.
Calling her being persistent and persuasive simply "nagging" (as if it was for nagging's sake) I find ridiculous. The one who speaks the truth which hurts shall get the beating? No. :no:
Harry & Hermione have always been close, as I've read it. They didn't grow any closer in book 5 than Harry & Ron didWhere were the great bonding moments between Harry and Ron in OotP? H/Hr had many. It doesn't work to cling to Harry's sentence in mid-GoF when Ron had abandoned Harry and Hary missed him; or what Harry would miss most in mid-GoF. These things change.

Mirtilla wrote:Harry never open his soul to Luna, he listened to her but he never answered or showed his feelings. As for Ginny, she didn’t event try to talk with Harry about Sirius after the death Ginny's most Doxy-Droppings line in OotP was in the Hospital Wing shortly after Sirius' death: " Everything's settled right back to normal."
:nc: EDIT: A glitch.

[Tzigone]

I disagree with your asessment of Molly. She wants her kids to behave and she wants to protect them from danger. Neither of these is unreasonable, and that behavior has not been deadly because none of her children, or her surrogate child Harry, is dead.

[IceKat55]

Molly's attitude towards all her children is: Behave, do nothing against the rules, earn school success and everything will be alright, the grown-ups will take care of the rest.

Which, since book1, has been a deadly attitude in the Potterverse.
Hermione is in that regard so much different, she takes whatever matters into her own hands.
Calling her being persistent and persuasive simply "nagging" (as if it was for nagging's sake) I find ridiculous. The one who speaks the truth which hurts shall get the beating? No. :no:
Not the point, IMO. The point, to me, is that Harry & Hermione simply aren't romantically compatible. That's how I read the characters, the clues, and what I believe Rowling to be heading towards. :)

Where were the great bonding moments between Harry and Ron in OotP? H/Hr had many. It doesn't work to cling to Harry's sentence in mid-GoF when Ron had abandoned Harry and Hary missed him; or what Harry would miss most in mid-GoF. These things change.
Ron & Harry are still as close as they ever were, and sorry, I don't quite see your point...? Harry is still good friends with both Ron & Hermione, and I saw no drastic changes in OotP between he & either of them. Now Harry and Ginny, mind... :eyebrows:

Ginny's most Doxy-Droppings line in OotP was in the Hospital Wing shortly after Sirius' death: " Everything's settled right back to normal."
:nc:
Sorry, where does Ginny say that? I can't find it in my book, and honestly don't remember it...

[stic]

Tzigone wrote: I disagree with your asessment of Molly. She wants her kids to behave and she wants to protect them from danger. Neither of these is unreasonable, and that behavior has not been deadly because none of her children, or her surrogate child Harry, is dead. Molly's behaviour is of course understandable but, had the kids listened to her and abandoned the idea of the DA, they would all have been toast at the end of OotP.
My point is the difference between Molly's way of trying to influence and Hermione's way which is always on point, reasonable, persistent and persuasive. It's not simple "nagging". ;)
Sorry, where does Ginny say that? I can't find it in my book, and honestly don't remember it...
My bad. A glitch. It's Neville who says it about school. Still, Ginny hasn't tried so far to talk about Sirius.
The point, to me, is that Harry & Hermione simply aren't romantically compatible Because Harry isn't 100% honest to Hermione? Because he's not always happy to be confronted with the truth?

[GinnyxHarry]

I think it will be Harry and Luna. Though I support Red Moon and Chocolate, Harry has described Luna as 'dreamy'. And it probably will (unfornatly) be Ron and Hermione.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Something is getting lost in the translation, you're clearly not understanding what I'm trying to say....so, we'll agree to (yet again!) disagree.

Ah, now its the translation, interesting view. Do you say that after it might turn out that JKR write's very well that Harry is able and willing to deal with Hermione's strong side of character, too? :rotfl:

[IceKat55]

Because Harry isn't 100% honest to Hermione? Because he's not always happy to be confronted with the truth?
Not at all. It's because there is a huge part of Hermione's personality that annoys Harry. He has referred to it as "nagging", himself. He's given us examples in canon where he attempts to block out her voice, I think he described it as 'hissing', and people were checking their cauldrons for leaks. He has lied to her specifically to keep from hearing her nag him, and to avoid any confrontation. None of these are positive things, or positive ways for Harry to deal with Hermione when she gets like that, and they would all spell disaster, should Harry & Hermione attempt to 'get together' and end up married some day, far in the future.

I don't see Hermione changing, and honestly wouldn't want her to. However, the two boys deal with that part of her nature in two totally different ways. Ron deals with it head-on. Harry, not so much. Which makes Harry less compatible with her on a romantic level. IMO, of course. :)

[Heatherhobbit]

I wrote:
Heatherhobbit answered: I said it would be simple to write it, meaning Jo would resolve the red-herrings and be done with her twist.

I have no doubt that Jo would write the character Ron reacting hurt and angry. :scared:
Red herring? What red herring?

So how is the trio supposed to go back to being the trio if Ron is rejected?

That doesn't make much sense to me. All Ron has shown to Hermione and to us readers was that he didn't believe Hermione could get a date with somebody else than "loser" Neville; and that when Hermy then had suddenly one of the top 3 dates of the evening Ron suspected foul play on Krum's side. :grumble:
He expressed how impossible it is that Krum would date Hermione for Hermione's sake and not for the sake of spying on Harry through her to win the TWT. Ron is playing detective here and interrogates Hermione for the "crimes" he thinks she's comitted against him, Harry and Hogwarts for attention-seeking motives.
So are you implying that Ron wasn't jealous at this point?


Exactly like he did it with Harry after he'd been nominated 4th champion.
Yep, and he was jealous then too.

"Oh Harry, isn't it obvious?" Hermione said despairingly. "He's jealous!"


Not really. The R/Hr climax would be: Ron making the big move and earning the big "no". :td:
That's not a climax; that's an anti-climax.

[stic]

Icekat55 wrote: Ron & Harry are still as close as they ever were, and sorry, I don't quite see your point...? Really? Where are the bonding moments? :huh:
The first and only Quidditch game with Ron and Harry wasn't one. It wasn't really a shared success; Ron blamed himself and Harry was tired of hearing it. Harry and Hermione were not even part of the final game's audience but in the forest together; they were of course happy for Ron afterwards but the thing that really was on their minds was Grawp.

No Harry & Ron Aragog-like exclusive adventures, just a woozy type of alienation. Harry's not the notably funnier, easier guy he used to be. Ron failed to truly understand him in book 5 whereas Hermione succeded. :tu:
Now Harry and Ginny, mind... Have now a friendship as deep as Harry has with Luna, Neville, the twins,...

[IceKat55]

Ah, now its the translation, interesting view. Do you say that after it might turn out that JKR write's very well that Harry is able and willing to deal with Hermione's strong side of character, too? :rotfl:
Can't really answer that, since I don't believe it will happen in a zillion years. Folks, this isn't 'the Harry & Hermione Story', no matter how much some may want it to be. We already know their friendship quite well, and how they deal and interact with each other. Rowling has made sure of that. And Harry & Hermione's personality clashes/issues simply aren't the heart of these books. :)

Really? Where are the bonding moments? :huh:
The first and only Quidditch game with Ron and Harry wasn't one. It wasn't really a shared success; Ron blamed himself and Harry was tired of hearing it. Harry and Hermione were not even part of the final game's audience but in the forest together; they were of course happy for Ron afterwards but the thing that really was on their minds was Grawp.

No Harry & Ron Aragog-like exclusive adventures, just a woozy type of alienation. Harry's not the notably funnier, easier guy he used to be. Ron failed to truly understand him in book 5 whereas Hermione succeded. :tu:
It's simply through the entire book. No specifics, just their strong friendship, the same as it ever was, on every page. And this isn't a Harry/Ron versus Harry/Hermione thing, anyway. And I've completely forgotten the point of this argument. :)

Have now a friendship as deep as Harry has with Luna, Neville, the twins,...
I was referring to character development. We have Ginny Weasley bursting onto the scene, coming into focus, and interacting with Harry more than she ever has in the past.

[Snidget66]

I swear all you people are mental!!!! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[FlyingPhoenix]

Can't really answer that, since I don't believe it will happen in a zillion years. Folks, this isn't 'the Harry & Hermione Story', no matter how much some may want it to be. We already know their friendship quite well, and how they deal and interact with each other. Rowling has made sure of that. And Harry & Hermione's personality clashes/issues simply aren't the heart of these books. :)

You mean that's ain't the Ron and Hermione and ever happily liveing after show story . It's much more a Harry and Hermione story as it is a Ron and Hermione story, and yes I did claim that to be canon.

People who are that darn sure will be the first who don't like the outcome, another sad view. :rotfl:

[Tzigone]

It's the Harry show. Harry is the star. Ron and Hermione are both sidekicks.

[IceKat55]

It's much more a Harry and Hermione story as it is a Ron and Hermione story, and yes I did claim that to be canon.
In your opinion. Not in mine. :)

People who are that darn sure will be the first who don't like the outcome, another sad view. :rotfl:
Game On!! :lol:

[snoopy_bombay]

Can't really answer that, since I don't believe it will happen in a zillion years. Folks, this isn't 'the Harry & Hermione Story', no matter how much some may want it to be. We already know their friendship quite well, and how they deal and interact with each other. Rowling has made sure of that. And Harry & Hermione's personality clashes/issues simply aren't the heart of these books. :)



Although this isn't a harry /hermione story yet it still is centred very much around them and ron,although ron has to struggle to keep up.Also what are h/hr personality clashes?



It's simply through the entire book. No specifics, just their strong friendship, the same as it ever was, on every page. And this isn't a Harry/Ron versus Harry/Hermione thing, anyway. And I've completely forgotten the point of this argument. :)



yes,this isn't a harry/ron versus harry/hermione thing.So?



I was referring to character development. We have Ginny Weasley bursting onto the scene, coming into focus, and interacting with Harry more than she ever has in the past.

I think It's because ginny has gotten over her crush on harry.Now they can resume uninterrupted friendship.

that's the bottom line

[stic]

Icekat55 wrote:It's because there is a huge part of Hermione's personality that annoys Harry. He has referred to it as "nagging", himself. And don't you think Harry will quickly learn to appreciate that very same thing about Hermione after OotP where Sirius had to die because Harry didn't believe Hermione's dead-on view that LV is playing on Harry's saving-people thing? :huh:
What you think is an obstacle for H/Hr is one of Hermione's biggest strenghts.
It takes time to learn to appreciate that,hence
FlyingPhoenix's view: I suspect you expect that Harry with 17 will be the same as with 11, 12, 13, 14 and 15, that's a sad view. After Sirius' death it is the perfect time for Harry to appreciate that part of Hermione.
I don't see Hermione changing, and honestly wouldn't want her to. She doesn't need to at all. However, the two boys deal with that part of her nature in two totally different ways. Ron deals with it head-on. Ron has always hated it and veeery seldomly understood it.

Heatherhobbit wrote: Red herring? What red herring? Hermione being in love with Ron.
So how is the trio supposed to go back to being the trio if Ron is rejected?Through severe character developement and R/Luna; everybody coming out of it stronger than they were. :tu:
So are you implying that Ron wasn't jealous at this point? Jealous of Hermione having far more spotlight than he does at the JuleBall, but that's not the ruling emotion, IMO.
Ron is playing detective here and interrogates Hermione for the "crimes" he thinks she's comitted against him, Harry and Hogwarts for attention-seeking motives. Just like he did with Harry.

With Harry, it was also not primarily jealousy, rather Ron's impression that Harry had been totally illoyal to him, i.e. "the crime" Harry had committed. If Harry had found a way of entering himself and Ron into the Goblet and Harry had won the choice, we can be sure Ron wouldn't have reacted that strongly.

[hermy_weasley2]

Not really. The R/Hr climax would be: Ron making the big move and earning the big "no".

This quote came from an old post ( or this thread anyway), but I'd like to say something.

Hermione wouldn't do that. Ron isn't some stranger off the street asking her to dinner. They've been friends for five years now, and even if you don't believe R/Hr is meant to be, you can't deny that Ron is important to Hermione. And Hermione is too logical and sensible not to think through the situation first, and even if she was going to reject a romance with him, it would be long and drawn- out and could easily take up most of HBP. Then where would we be? At the beginning of Book 7, and JKR would have to focus a lot on the war and concluding the series more than dragging anything out.

[IceKat55]

And don't you think Harry will quickly learn to appreciate that very same thing about Hermione after OotP where Sirius had to die because Harry didn't believe Hermione's dead-on view that LV is playing on Harry's saving-people thing? :huh:
No, I don't believe he'll learn to "appreciate" that about Hermione. He will likely come to realize that she was right in her assessment of the situation (obviously), but her delivery is still what he has issues with.

What you think is an obstacle for H/Hr is one of Hermione's biggest strenghts.
What I see as the obstacle is Harry's inability/unwillingness to deal with it. Not the fact that it's (arguably) one of "Hermione's biggest strengths". :)

[Heatherhobbit]

Hermione being in love with Ron.
Let me get this straight...If you think Hr->R is a red herring then you are willing to admit that there is evidence there. Am I right? Well, what if it isn't a red herring? Red herrings in romantic stories are very unsatisfying. The fun of romance is watching the journey, not the final (surprise) outcome. It's more satisfying when the character is surprised (ex Ron realizing Hermione's a girl and Harry realizing why Ginny now talks to him), not the reader.


through severe character developement and R/Luna; everybody coming out of it stronger than they were. :tu:
I am a former casual H/L shipper, but since Rowling has updated her site I have come to the conclusion that Luna is not going to be anyone's love interest, especially Ron's. Why would you pair her up with Ron who thinks she's nuts?
I think that Neville would always find Luna’s wilder flights of fancy alarming.
Rowling sunk N/L because Neville could not handle Luna's crazy ideas. Neville's not the only one to think she's insane--Ron does too.

As for severe character development--How do you see "The Rejection of Ronald Weasley" being positive character development? Contrary to popular belief, heartbreak does not force people to grow up. Ron is a fun character who is full of love for the people in his life. Do you honestly think that Rowling wants to send the message to her young readers that if you are full of love your heart will be broken? Of course not. She'll show normal teenage crushes that the kids grow out of such as Hermione->Lockhart, Harry->Cho, and Ron->Fleur, but when it comes to love I don't think Rowling will be so easy to dish out heartbreak.


With Harry, it was also not primarily jealousy, rather Ron's impression that Harry had been totally illoyal to his best friend, i.e. "the crime" he had committed. If Harry had found a way of entering himself and Ron into the Goblet and Harry had won the choice, we can be sure Ron wouldn't have reacted that strongly.
Yes, Ron did feel that Harry was disloyal, but I think you are ignoring this...

"Oh Harry, isn't it obvious?" Hermione said despairingly. "He's jealous!"

[snoopy_bombay]

This quote came from an old post ( or this thread anyway), but I'd like to say something.

Hermione wouldn't do that. Ron isn't some stranger off the street asking her to dinner. They've been friends for five years now, and even if you don't believe R/Hr is meant to be, you can't deny that Ron is important to Hermione. And Hermione is too logical and sensible not to think through the situation first, and even if she was going to reject a romance with him, it would be long and drawn- out and could easily take up most of HBP. Then where would we be? At the beginning of Book 7, and JKR would have to focus a lot on the war and concluding the series more than dragging anything out.

Yes,hermione wouldn't turn him down with an immediate no, but if she doesn't love ron then she would give him the no as quickly as possible before he gets emotionally invested in the relationship so that it is a less of a heartbreak.

how many herons and harmonians are around?

[stic]

hermy_weasley2 wrote: Hermione is too logical and sensible not to think through the situation first, and even if she was going to reject a romance with him, it would be long and drawn- out and could easily take up most of HBP I kept my sentence short, i did not imply that I believe Hermione will deliver the rejection in a heartless way. Just the opposite.

Heatherhobbit wrote:Let me get this straight...If you think Hr->R is a red herring then you are willing to admit that there is evidence there. I say there are basically 3 Hr----->R red-herrings in GoF and that's it.
Hermione's pseudo-invitation, Hermione seemingly being only furious about Fleur having kissed Ron, Hermione scowling over Ron's slimey compliment to Fleur. Red herrings in romantic stories are very unsatisfying.Happens a lot though. Some might like the surprise-effect, some might like "working out" the twist beforehand. The fun of romance is watching the journey, not the final (surprise) outcome.I think there is quite enough H/Hr journey. It's more satisfying when the character is surprised (ex Ron realizing Hermione's a girl Yeah, I know, for 3 and a half years Ron believed Hermione was a guy..... :rotfl:
I perceive that comment to be the equivalent of:
"Hey, Hermione, you fulfill the minimum requirements to be my back-up-date to help me keep my face! You are female!" Hence Hermione's acid reaction.I have come to the conclusion that Luna is not going to be anyone's love interest, especially Ron's. Why would you pair her up with Ron who thinks she's nuts? Why would you pair Ron up with Hermione who he believed was "mental", i.e. nuts, for a long time? :eyebrows:
Ron is a fun character who is full of love for the people in his life. Do you honestly think that Rowling wants to send the message to her young readers that if you are full of love your heart will be broken? Rather: Even if you should happen to fall in love with someone, that person is not obliged to return these feelings. That's life. :tu: Yes, Ron did feel that Harry was disloyal, but I think you are ignoring this...

"Oh Harry, isn't it obvious?" Hermione said despairingly. "He's jealous!" I didn't ignore it as I've mentioned it. Hermione's assessment
is true but it's not the whole story. If Ron had lost a fair competition to Harry, he'd just have been jealous. But Ron believed Harry had cheated and thereby avoided the competition. Illoyality.
Icekat55 wrote:No, I don't believe he'll learn to "appreciate" that about Hermione. He will likely come to realize that she was right in her assessment of the situation (obviously), but her delivery is still what he has issues with. She might learn how to soften the wooden hammer a bit, but telling the tough truth will always be, well, somewhat tough.
Once you've learned to appreciate that character trait, you never want to go back. :eyebrows: What I see as the obstacle is Harry's inability/unwillingness to deal with itWell, he's able but the willing part should change. It's a matter of growing up, to choose what's right rather than what's easy. He might not always like Hermione's persistence when she forces him to do (his own!) school work for example but at the end of each year Harry is happy to have graduated, thanks to Hermione. :tu:

[snoopy_bombay]

Let me get this straight...If you think Hr->R is a red herring then you are willing to admit that there is evidence there. Am I right? Well, what if it isn't a red herring? Red herrings in romantic stories are very unsatisfying. The fun of romance is watching the journey, not the final (surprise) outcome. It's more satisfying when the character is surprised (ex Ron realizing Hermione's a girl and Harry realizing why Ginny now talks to him), not the reader.


Well yes there is r/hr evidence but jkr is making it too obvious,and I don't think jkr ever does anything in an obvious format.It can be the red herring.


I am a former casual H/L shipper, but since Rowling has updated her site I have come to the conclusion that Luna is not going to be anyone's love interest, especially Ron's. Why would you pair her up with Ron who thinks she's nuts?

Rowling sunk N/L because Neville could not handle Luna's crazy ideas. Neville's not the only one to think she's insane--Ron does too.
Harry did as well.But isn't she becoming a bit more believable now,even to harry?Can't this happen with ron?

As for severe character development--How do you see "The Rejection of Ronald Weasley" being positive character development? Contrary to popular belief, heartbreak does not force people to grow up. Ron is a fun character who is full of love for the people in his life. Do you honestly think that Rowling wants to send the message to her young readers that if you are full of love your heart will be broken? Of course not. She'll show normal teenage crushes that the kids grow out of such as Hermione->Lockhart, Harry->Cho, and Ron->Fleur, but when it comes to love I don't think Rowling will be so easy to dish out heartbreak.
Well what if it helps him mature?grow up and get over his first crush.It can certainly be a positive character development.


Yes, Ron did feel that Harry was disloyal, but I think you are ignoring this...

"Oh Harry, isn't it obvious?" Hermione said despairingly. "He's jealous!"
I'll agree with that.

[Alfonzo]

I think it will be Harry and Luna. Though I support Red Moon and Chocolate, Harry has described Luna as 'dreamy'.
Harry describing Luna as 'dreamy' does not constitute shippy feelings... The dreamy quality that she has about her is because she looks as if she is daydreaming all the time! He isn't referring to her as 'dreamy' i.e. "Oh, she's so dreamy! :love:".

[rupertfan123]

Yes,Hermione wouldn't turn him down with an immediate no, but if she doesn't love Ron then she would give him the no as quickly as possible before he gets emotionally invested in the relationship so that it is a less of a heartbreak.

Hmmm...I don't know about that.Ron's her friend,and even if she didn't love him back,it would take her a while to find the right words to say to him.He may not be what she wants,but she still wouldn't want to break his heart by just saying "No,sorry Ron."

Originally posted by stic
I think there is quite enough H/Hr journey.

I'd have to disagree on that one.Yes,there is H/Hr journey,but not in the romantic way.To me,it really doesn't seem as if Harry is romantically attracted to Hermione in any way.Nor is Hermione attracted to Harry.Ron is obviously attracted to Hermione,but I'm not quite sure if Hermione's the same.The kiss-on-the-cheek thing in OotP might've been a clue,but not definately.

Yeah, I know, for 3 and a half years Ron believed Hermione was a guy.....
I perceive that comment to be the equivalent of:
"Hey, Hermione, you fulfill the minimum requirements to be my back-up-date to help me keep my face! You are female!" Hence Hermione's acid reaction.

I don't think that Ron ever doubted that Hermione was a girl,he just didn't see her as a possible date for him at that time.

Why would you pair Ron up with Hermione who he believed was "mental", i.e. nuts, for a long time?

Ron did think that Hermione was "mental".He now realises that she isn't and is attracted to her.Unlike Luna,who he still thinks is mental.

She might learn how to soften the wooden hammer a bit, but telling the tough truth will always be, well, somewhat tough.
Once you've learned to appreciate that character trait, you never want to go back.

Yes,but what if this "tough truth" is that Hermione is attracted to Ron the same way Ron is attracted to Hermione? :eyebrows:

Well, he's able but the willing part should change. It's a matter of growing up, to choose what's right rather than what's easy. He might not always like Hermione's persistence when she forces him to do (his own!) school work for example but at the end of each year Harry is happy to have graduated, thanks to Hermione.

As Ron is happy to have graduated,thanks to Hermione

[flying_high]

ron and hermione

[Alfonzo]

Why would you pair Ron up with Hermione who he believed was "mental", i.e. nuts, for a long time? :eyebrows:
You should know that he didn't really think that she was 'mental'... :rolleyes: He did think that she could act strangely sometimes, but that was a throwaway comment, at a time when he didn't really know her too well.

[snoopy_bombay]

You should know that he didn't really think that she was 'mental'... :rolleyes: He did think that she could act strangely sometimes, but that was a throwaway comment, at a time when he didn't really know her too well.
When did he not know her?

[Alfonzo]

ron and hermione

Howdy! Welcome to The Love Thread! Don't be too intimidated - it is scary, but you'll get used to it :D. It helps to elaborate on your views ;).

When did he not know her?
I said 'when he didn't really know her too well'. At this point he only seemed to see the bookworm, the annoying tell-tale side of Hermione - he vented his frustration by calling her 'mental'. He didn't really mean it, it was just a way of insulting her.

[Messed]

You know, I'm still not quite sure that Ron actually fancied Hermione. I mean, I thought so after I read GoF, but then I read that scene in OotP when the trio is in Hogsmeade after the first DA meeting, where Hermione informs Ron that Ginny is dating Michael. He reacts the same way he did when he found out the Hermione was Krum's date for the Yule Ball. Maybe the seemingly obviouse R->Hr we see in GoF is just a red herring for what's really there: Ron being the over protective big brother.

Just an observation I made.

[snoopy_bombay]

how about harry and hermione or neville and hermione

[IceKat55]

She might learn how to soften the wooden hammer a bit, but telling the tough truth will always be, well, somewhat tough.
Once you've learned to appreciate that character trait, you never want to go back. :eyebrows: Well, he's able but the willing part should change. It's a matter of growing up, to choose what's right rather than what's easy. He might not always like Hermione's persistence when she forces him to do (his own!) school work for example but at the end of each year Harry is happy to have graduated, thanks to Hermione. :tu:
'Might' and 'should'...all speculation on your part. So far, we've gotten nothing from Rowling that says Harry is learning to deal with Hermione nagging, or he ever will, enough to produce a successful romance between them. Two more books to go, yes...but combined with all the R/Hr hints, and the lack of Harry/Hermione hints...sorry, but I still just don't like the Harmony's chances. :)

[snoopy_bombay]

You know, I'm still not quite sure that Ron actually fancied Hermione. I mean, I thought so after I read GoF, but then I read that scene in OotP when the trio is in Hogsmeade after the first DA meeting, where Hermione informs Ron that Ginny is dating Michael. He reacts the same way he did when he found out the Hermione was Krum's date for the Yule Ball. Maybe the seemingly obviouse R->Hr we see in GoF is just a red herring for what's really there: Ron being the over protective big brother.

Just an observation I made.
I agree and also do quite a lot of people

[stic]

rupertfan123 wrote:Yes,but what if this "tough truth" is that Hermione is attracted to Ron the same way Ron is attracted to Hermione? When Hermione is telling Ron the truth, she does it in a correct way. When she tells him it is bound to take time to get good at Quidditch Ron explodes and then leaves. :grumble:
Not a very "head-on" type of dealing with Hermione's honest approach, as Icekat55 has called it.
When Ron attempts to correct Hermione's views and actions he does it in a condescending and unfair way.
While Harry for example manages to criticise Hermione's "free all elves" S.P.E.W. campaign in a constructive way ("Let's hope the other house-elves don't look too close at Winky." , i.e. "Not all elves are happy with getting freed ) Ron has never ceased to belittle Hermione's efforts as a whole, calling it "spew" et al. :td:
I don't think that Ron ever doubted that Hermione was a girl That part was a joke of course, he just didn't see her as a possible date for him at that time He thought no one in his right mind would date Hermione except for maybe "loser" Neville. :huh:

[Alfonzo]

neville and hermione
:no: Do you really think that they could/would work? :huh:

[rupertfan123]

Originally posted by snoopy_bombay
how about harry and hermione or neville and hermione

Neville and Hermione???That's new.I supose it would be an okay match,but neither seem interested in each other.

[GinnyxHarry]

how about harry and hermione or neville and hermione
Neville and Hermione is teh lonely ship. ;-; I'm probably the only one on it. ;-; XD

[flying_high]

neville and hermione will never happen

[snoopy_bombay]

Neville and Hermione???That's new.I supose it would be an okay match,but neither seem interested in each other.

well,Just testing the responses for that one.Don't think it will happen but what an unlikely twist in the end.I mean neville asked hermione to go to the yule ball with him din't he?

[rupertfan123]

Originally Posted by Messed
You know, I'm still not quite sure that Ron actually fancied Hermione. I mean, I thought so after I read GoF, but then I read that scene in OotP when the trio is in Hogsmeade after the first DA meeting, where Hermione informs Ron that Ginny is dating Michael. He reacts the same way he did when he found out the Hermione was Krum's date for the Yule Ball. Maybe the seemingly obviouse R->Hr we see in GoF is just a red herring for what's really there: Ron being the over protective big brother.

Just an observation I made.

Ron loves Ginny and therefore gets upset that she has a boyfriend.Ron loves Hermione and therefore gets upset that she has a date.But then again,you don't see Ron argueing with Ginny for three pages,do you???

[GinnyxHarry]

neville and hermione will never happen
How do you know?

[sergorat]

neville and hermione will never happen
Why not? Hermione likes Neville and she always helps him!

[Alfonzo]

Neville and Hermione???That's new.I supose it would be an okay match,but neither seem interested in each other.
Well, it's not a new match... It wouldn't be an ok match in my opinion - Hermione has shown absolutely no sign of attraction to him. She is a good friend to him, looking out for him, and I guess that she pities him when he is insulted, but as a couple they would be totally mismatched. They have very different personalities. Hermione would get frustrated with a withdrawn/nervous partner - she maybe needs someone who is assertive and confident...

[flying_high]

hermione wouldnt like neville even if he did like her

[LilypadLollipop]

I'd have to disagree on that one.Yes,there is H/Hr journey,but not in the romantic way.To me,it really doesn't seem as if Harry is romantically attracted to Hermione in any way.Nor is Hermione attracted to Harry.Ron is obviously attracted to Hermione,but I'm not quite sure if Hermione's the same.The kiss-on-the-cheek thing in OotP might've been a clue,but not definately.

Yeah, i agree Lizzie. At least Herons have one person who fancies someone, and a possibility of the other person fancying them. Harmonians know that one person doesn't have romantic feelings and that the other one only has a possibility of feelings, also, they're platonic. I don't think harmonians have any proof that harry likes hermione i.e. in his dream, he dreams that she is nagging him to ask cho out, how is this good?

[rupertfan123]

He thought no one in his right mind would date Hermione except for maybe "loser" Neville.

He did didn't he.Now,not so much...

[GinnyxHarry]

Why not? Hermione likes Neville and she always helps him!
I know! That's why I think it has a CHANCE at least!

[Alfonzo]

Why not? Hermione likes Neville and she always helps him!
That is not a basis for a romance - they are just friendly acts... :rolleyes: See my earlier post.

[rupertfan123]

Yeah, i agree Lizzie. At least Herons have one person who fancies someone, and a possibility of the other person fancying them. Harmonians know that one person doesn't have romantic feelings and that the other one only has a possibility of feelings, also, they're platonic. I don't think harmonians have any proof that harry likes hermione i.e. in his dream, he dreams that she is nagging him to ask cho out, how is this good?

Good point Katie.It seems they make up half...no,most of the evidence they "find".

[GinnyxHarry]

hermione wouldnt like neville even if he did like her
You're not J. K. Rowling, so you don't know that. :P

[LilypadLollipop]

Good point Katie.It seems they make up half...no,most of the evidence they "find".
thanks. and most of their evidence, lizzie, can be changed into brotherly/sisterly affection. IMO

[The Garbage Man]

And I think it's better for H/G, as it shows her silly, insignificant little schoolgirl crush is gone, and she can now get to know Harry (and vice versa) on a more real, grown-up level.


I was going off of memory when I wrote that post, as I didn't have my books on me. Regardless, we see none of that in book 5 at all.

[snoopy_bombay]

neville and hermione will never happen

we can't say for sure till jkr squashes it

[EmilyRose]

I'm vaguely curious about some things that are related (think: cousins) topics. I realize that the movies and the books are different entities, but I wonder what affect the movies have had on our book-based shipping tendancies, if any, and what you think they say about what will happen in the next books (or if they say nothing at all).

For instance:

Do you believe that the R/Hr hints in the movie are a fabrication of the directors? Do you see H/Hr hints as often in the movies? Is there overt shipping on the part of the directors, or do you think that they know something we don't? What affect have the movies had on your shipping tendancies? And most importantly, do you feel that they have any bearing on what's going on in the books?

I know it's funny for us Heron shippers to watch the movies and see little tidbits thrown our way, but I must say--I've always been a Heron shipper, even prior to the movies. I just see clues in the book that lead me to believe that they like each other. Do the Harmony shippers find that annoying? Frustrating? Are the directors neglecting what hints -you- see in the books for your ideal HP couple?

[flying_high]

good point

[Alfonzo]

You're not J. K. Rowling, so you don't know that. :P No, but we can see from the books that there isn't even a detectable spark in there - she doesn't even seem to spend much time with Neville. Her friendly, helpful qualities do not show any romantic intent - half the time she helps him to avoid him getting into trouble!

[IceKat55]

I was going off of memory when I wrote that post, as I didn't have my books on me. Regardless, we see none of that in book 5 at all.
We see none of what? Her crush? Agreed, because it is over. Ginny is maturing nicely, and she can now hold a real conversation with Harry. :)

[GinnyxHarry]

we can't say for sure till jkr squashes it
Very true. *crosses fingers*

[flying_high]

another good point

[The Garbage Man]

Good point Katie.It seems they make up half...no,most of the evidence they "find".

Dreams tend to operate on symbolic basis; not a plain one. The dream where Cho turns into Hermione is riddled with symbolism. As soon as I get my books back (OR I dig up an essay someone wrote on that dream) I will make a post about it so that you can see we did not 'make it up'.


We see none of what? Her crush? Agreed, because it is over. Ginny is maturing nicely, and she can now hold a real conversation with Harry

Well, being able to hold a conversation is definitely a step in the right direction.

[Alfonzo]

we can't say for sure till jkr squashes it
Yes, that's true. We can, however, make the most of the evidence we have and form opinions based on that. It's fun to debate :D.

[IceKat55]

Dreams tend to operate on symbolic basis; not a plain one. The dream where Cho turns into Hermione is riddled with symbolism. As soon as I get my books back (OR I dig up an essay someone wrote on that dream) I will make a post about it so that you can see we did not 'make it up'.
And what of Harry's dream where Ron & Hermione are wearing crowns...? :huh:

[FlyingPhoenix]

It seems they make up half...no,most of the evidence they "find".
You really shouldn't assume from you to others.

I don't think harmonians have any proof that harry likes hermione i.e. in his dream, he dreams that she is nagging him to ask cho out, how is this good?

It would be usefull if that were actuall like this in canon, but its not.
Harmonians don't have proofs, just evidence.

[snoopy_bombay]

thanks. and most of their evidence, lizzie, can be changed into brotherly/sisterly affection. IMO

no way!

[rupertfan123]

Do you believe that the R/Hr hints in the movie are a fabrication of the directors? Do you see H/Hr hints as often in the movies? Is there overt shipping on the part of the directors, or do you think that they know something we don't? What affect have the movies had on your shipping tendancies? And most importantly, do you feel that they have any bearing on what's going on in the books?

I know it's funny for us Heron shippers to watch the movies and see little tidbits thrown our way, but I must say--I've always been a Heron shipper, even prior to the movies. I just see clues in the book that lead me to believe that they like each other. Do the Harmony shippers find that annoying? Frustrating? Are the directors neglecting what hints -you- see in the books for your ideal HP couple?


Personally,for me,I read the first book,then saw the movie.After the first movie came out,I read the second,third,fourth and fifth books.I have been a Heron shipper since I read the second book.The movies really haven't changed my decision for the better or worse.It was the books,really...

[Alfonzo]

Dreams tend to operate on symbolic basis; not a plain one. The dream where Cho turns into Hermione is riddled with symbolism. As soon as I get my books back (OR I dig up an essay someone wrote on that dream) I will make a post about it so that you can see we did not 'make it up'.
Dreams are very tricky to interpret, and the theory about that dream is quite fanciful...

[LilypadLollipop]

For instance:

Do you believe that the R/Hr hints in the movie are a fabrication of the directors? Do you see H/Hr hints as often in the movies? Is there overt shipping on the part of the directors, or do you think that they know something we don't? What affect have the movies had on your shipping tendancies? And most importantly, do you feel that they have any bearing on what's going on in the books?

I know it's funny for us Heron shippers to watch the movies and see little tidbits thrown our way, but I must say--I've always been a Heron shipper, even prior to the movies. I just see clues in the book that lead me to believe that they like each other. Do the Harmony shippers find that annoying? Frustrating? Are the directors neglecting what hints -you- see in the books for your ideal HP couple?

hm...well J.K. did tell the writers the ending, and who ends up dating...
to me, i see a lot of heron hints, and they sort of made me heron. i had realized that they liked eachother when movie 2 came out. but i guess i got really into it after seeing the third movie and reading the 5th book.

[The Garbage Man]

And what of Harry's dream where Ron & Hermione are wearing crowns...?

Reaction to them being together through prefect status; that Harry is the odd one out. Granted, a lot of R/Hr shippers call this foreshadowing of the whole 'Weasley is our King' and that Hermione is therefore our queen, but I that dream contains no obvious symbolism. (If you can figure out what Mrs. Weasley crying over KReacher's dead body means, let me know) Frankly I think it's just a reaction to the day's events; as Mrs. Weasley was crying over the boggart bodies of Ron and her other children.

On a side note, the name Luna means 'Moon', which is the 'Queen'; which is what I believe the foreshadowing of 'Weasley is our King' is all about.

[FredFancier]

You know, I'm still not quite sure that Ron actually fancied Hermione. I mean, I thought so after I read GoF, but then I read that scene in OotP when the trio is in Hogsmeade after the first DA meeting, where Hermione informs Ron that Ginny is dating Michael. He reacts the same way he did when he found out the Hermione was Krum's date for the Yule Ball. Maybe the seemingly obviouse R->Hr we see in GoF is just a red herring for what's really there: Ron being the over protective big brother.

Ron didn't make near as big of a deal about Ginny and Michael as he did for Hermione and Krum. Yes he did harp on it for a day, but he didn't really bring it up later.
With Krum and Hermione, Ron was nasty to Krum, accused him of being evil, When Krum dived into the lake, he said "he's mad" and "there's always the giant squid",he snapped an arm off of the Viktor Krum model, he asked Harry irratably what Hermione saw in Krum, and he still got mad even though hermione said they were just penpals. With Ginny saying she and Michael broke up- he said choose someone better next time while looking at Harry. But with Krum and Hermione he is still suspicious and still is not as big of a Krum fan as he was before Krum and Hermione went to the ball.
Also JKR says Ron and Hermione have something "going on" but Ron doesn't realize it yet, typical boy, which incinuates liking one another (after all what do boys typically not realize?: Love, and Going on- with the quotations certainly bring up romance (and they would even if attributed to H/Hr's relationship- fact is- H and Hr don't have something "going on" // and also when asked what Viktor and Hermione did over the summer JKR replied : Ron would like to know that too. And Ron did give her perfume you know.
He thought no one in his right mind would date Hermione except for maybe "loser" Neville.
you realize that Harry laughed at it as well. So if you are incinuating that because of this Ron and Hermione won't work, it is also a good thing disproving H/Hr. But I would cut both boys some slack- they just got turned down for dates and were on major self pity trips. I personally doubt that either boy would have laughed if the situation were different.
When Hermione is telling Ron the truth, she does it in a correct way. When she tells him it is bound to take time to get good at Quidditch Ron explodes and then leaves.
Not a very "head-on" type of dealing with Hermione's honest approach, as Icekat55 has called it.
When Ron attempts to correct Hermione's views and actions he does it in a condescending and unfair way.
When Harry for example manages to criticise Hermione's "free all elves" S.P.E.W. campaign in a constructive way ("Let's hope the other house-elves don't look too close at Winky." , i.e. "Not all elves are happy with getting freed ) Ron has never ceased to belittle Hermione's efforts as a whole, calling it "spew" et al
reread the parts about SPEW in GoF and OotP (i didn't write the quote or the page number) but Harry felt the same as Ron did about SPEW. And I for one, think that openly delcaring how you feel about a matter "The elves don't want to be free" would be much healthier for a relationship then keeping things bottled up just to avoid hurt feelings. If you don't elaborate what you are feeling, it is bound to explode out of you, leaving the person more hurt then they would have been in the 1st place.
Originally Posted by snoopy_bombay
neville and hermione

eh...I dunno. Maybe, there isn't really anything for or against it. (Well there is I guess- Neville asked her to the ball, but she said no as she was going with someone...but hermione may have said yes if viktor didnt ask her first) hmm...N/Hr is too....I dunno... 'what if' for my preference.

By the way- Garbage man, we are only supposed to have 7 lines of text in our signitures, guidelines can be found:here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=22990) Just thought you ought to know, because otherwise it may be deleted and you may not have your sig for a while, and a small sig saying what you want is better then no sig at all.
Just tryin to help :)

[Alfonzo]

On a side note, the name Luna means 'Moon', which is the 'Queen'; which is what I believe the foreshadowing of 'Weasley is our King' is all about.
Er... Please explain this :huh:.

[stic]

Rupertfan123 wrote: Ron loves Ginny and therefore gets upset that she has a boyfriend But why does he get Pa-Ron-oia?
Because he doesn't trust Ginny enough. Ron fears Ginny might get seduced or tricked by the guys that want to date her. Ron doesn't get Pa-Ron-oia with the thought of H/G because he trusts Harry, not his sister.
Equally, Ron didn't trust Hermione at the JuleBall, he believed she got herself duped by Krum.

Everybody: One-liner-posts violate forum-rules and can get reported if they annoy too much!

[The Garbage Man]

Dreams are very tricky to interpret, and the theory about that dream is quite fanciful...


Hardly, it doesn't create any great stretch of the imagination. Harry's Firebolt is often considered to be a symbol for Harry's heart and his ability to love, which makes sense, as Harry's is incredible at flying and using his broomstick, and he also just happens to have incredible amounts of the power the dark lord knows not, that is, love.

Throughout the series you see dreams where Harry is chasing after something, or in a situation where using his Firebolt (Which he has slung over his shoulder) would solve the problem. Of course, as it is a dream, he doesn't think of using it. No great leaps of intuition are required to know what those dreams mean, either.

Anyway, I'll be back with the interpretation on the Cho/Hermione dream later.

[snoopy_bombay]

Can i just speculate on the hug at the end of COS movie?How about hermione loves harry so she runs into the great hall and hugs him thinking let the people watching go to hell,I don't care I love this guy ,and then spontaneously goes to hug ron then backs out thinking "hey I don't love this guy,I don't want him running away with wrong impressions."

[EmilyRose]

On a side note, the name Luna means 'Moon', which is the 'Queen'; which is what I believe the foreshadowing of 'Weasley is our King' is all about.

Moon to Queen is a bit of a stretch. Moon is synonymous with daydream, idle, languish, waste time etc. Luna is described as being partially daydreaming most times--this, rather than a thread of a connection to Ron, seems to be the origin of the name (that, and it works well with "Looney")

[rupertfan123]

But why does he get Pa-Ron-oia?
Because he doesn't trust Ginny enough. Ron fears Ginny might get seduced or tricked by the guys that want to date her. Ron doesn't get Pa-Ron-oia with the thought of H/G because he trusts Harry, not his sister.
Equally, Ron didn't trust Hermione at the JuleBall, he believed she got herself duped by Krum.


Thank you for seeing it my way stic!

[LilypadLollipop]

Can i just speculate on the hug at the end of COS movie?How about hermione loves harry so she runs into the great hall and hugs him thinking let the people watching go to hell,I don't care I love this guy ,and then spontaneously goes to hug ron then backs out thinking "hey I don't love this guy,I don't want him running away with wrong impressions."
maybe, but they are twelve, so they're probably immature... at least that's how all of my friends when they were twelve would've acted.

[rupertfan123]

Can i just speculate on the hug at the end of COS movie?How about hermione loves harry so she runs into the great hall and hugs him thinking let the people watching go to hell,I don't care I love this guy ,and then spontaneously goes to hug ron then backs out thinking "hey I don't love this guy,I don't want him running away with wrong impressions."

The hug was a brotherly/sisterly typen hug.The handshake instead of a hug was because they felt akward hugging each other,and didn't want people to get the impression they love each other because they don't want people to find out that they really do love each other.

[FlyingPhoenix]

Do you believe that the R/Hr hints in the movie are a fabrication of the directors? Do you see H/Hr hints as often in the movies?

Yes, actually more even.

What affect have the movies had on your shipping tendancies?

None

Do the Harmony shippers find that annoying? Frustrating?

I find such posts annoying but that's aside the point, isn't it?

[EmilyRose]

I don't want to get too far off onto the movies, despite my questions. Really, though--that hug, and everything else, are put into the movies but not the books. Is that shipping on the director's parts, and how does that affect your canon/book shipping?

I know a handful of people that were bothered by the Heron shipping in the movies, as they don't see it that way in the books. I've asked them, and they indicated that they'd feel similarly annoyed if it happened that way in the books. In this, I feel, they are allowing their shipping tendancies to interfere with their enjoyment of the books and of the movies, because--as we know--it's all going to turn out how JKR intended it.

It's the movies that revealed their thoughts about Book shipping, in that situation.

[snoopy_bombay]

Hardly, it doesn't create any great stretch of the imagination. Harry's Firebolt is often considered to be a symbol for Harry's heart and his ability to love, which makes sense, as Harry's is incredible at flying and using his broomstick, and he also just happens to have incredible amounts of the power the dark lord knows not, that is, love.

Throughout the series you see dreams where Harry is chasing after something, or in a situation where using his Firebolt (Which he has slung over his shoulder) would solve the problem. Of course, as it is a dream, he doesn't think of using it. No great leaps of intuition are required to know what those dreams mean, either.

Anyway, I'll be back with the interpretation on the Cho/Hermione dream later.


no need,it's there in the turambar essay on mugglenet.

[IceKat55]

Rupertfan123 wrote: But why does he get Pa-Ron-oia?
Because he doesn't trust Ginny enough. Ron fears Ginny might get seduced or tricked by the guys that want to date her. Ron doesn't get Pa-Ron-oia with the thought of H/G because he trusts Harry, not his sister.

Equally, Ron didn't trust Hermione at the JuleBall, he believed she got herself duped by Krum. [/B]
Disagree. I don't think it's a question of trust, in either case. With Ginny, that's his baby sister, and Ron is going to be very selective about who he thinks is 'good enough' for his baby sister. With Hermione, it was pure jealousy of wanting her for himself, even though he did not recognize it for what it really was. As Rowling says, thought...he "doesn't realize it yet". :)

[Alfonzo]

But why does he get Pa-Ron-oia?
Because he doesn't trust Ginny enough. Ron fears Ginny might get seduced or tricked by the guys that want to date her.
Well, you don't really know that - personally I think that he worries about her, and is generally unsettled by the idea that she could get mixed up with someone that he doesn't like. I don't think that he worries about seduction primarily...

Everybody: One-liner-posts violate forum-rules and can get reported if they annoy too much!
Do they? One liner posts that are intended for post-count boosting violate the rules, but a good one-liner can have more detail than a two or three-liner post...

Hardly, it doesn't create any great stretch of the imagination. Harry's Firebolt is often considered to be a symbol for Harry's heart and his ability to love, which makes sense, as Harry's is incredible at flying and using his broomstick, and he also just happens to have incredible amounts of the power the dark lord knows not, that is, love.Throughout the series you see dreams where Harry is chasing after something, or in a situation where using his Firebolt (Which he has slung over his shoulder) would solve the problem. Of course, as it is a dream, he doesn't think of using it. No great leaps of intuition are required to know what those dreams mean, either.
The latter exlanation is a better connection, although I'm not sure about teh broom symbolising love :shrug:.

[snoopy_bombay]

In POA if you have r/hr hand holding,you also have a h/hr hug

[IceKat55]

Can i just speculate on the hug at the end of COS movie?How about hermione loves harry so she runs into the great hall and hugs him thinking let the people watching go to hell,I don't care I love this guy ,and then spontaneously goes to hug ron then backs out thinking "hey I don't love this guy,I don't want him running away with wrong impressions."
Disagree. Harry & Hermione have no bubbling romantic tension between them, so they have no problem with close, physical proximity to each other. With Ron and Hermione, it's the opposite. They fancy each other (subconsciously, perhaps, at that point), so they become nervous and shy when Hermione moves in to hug him, Ron begins to stutter nervously, she casts her eyes down nervously, and they awkwardly shake hands. The filmmakers have even told us that that was their intention with that scene. :)

[dark_kneazle]

Because he doesn't trust Ginny enough. Ron fears Ginny might get seduced or tricked by the guys that want to date her. Ron doesn't get Pa-Ron-oia with the thought of H/G because he trusts Harry, not his sister.
Equally, Ron didn't trust Hermione at the JuleBall, he believed she got herself duped by Krum.

I agree completly with the way you say Ron looks at Ginny and her dicissions with her boyfriends. You want your sister to go out with someone who you think is worthy of her and who would be better then your best friends. You obviously think enough of him to have him as your best friend.

I'm not sure I agree that he sees Hermione in the same light, well similer light but it's different to me. You could consider that he sees Hermione like a sister but in JK interveiws she's said stuff like that about hermione and HArry having platonic love butnever once has she suggested it about the other pair. I think the fact that he act as he does about her relationship with Krum means that he feels some for her. It then has to eb detremined whever it's sisterly, friendship or love. We see the way he treats Micheal and he is no where near as creul as he is with the krum issue. Surely this means he feels the only one on the list which is stronger then sisterly ...love.

[Alfonzo]

Can i just speculate on the hug at the end of COS movie?How about hermione loves harry so she runs into the great hall and hugs him thinking let the people watching go to hell,I don't care I love this guy ,and then spontaneously goes to hug ron then backs out thinking "hey I don't love this guy,I don't want him running away with wrong impressions."
Is it too far to say that she was just happy to see her friends after the near-death experience that they all had? Let's not forget that good friends hug each other out of joy too. :)

[The Garbage Man]

By the way- Garbage man, we are only supposed to have 7 lines of text in our signitures, guidelines can be found:here Just thought you ought to know, because otherwise it may be deleted and you may not have your sig for a while, and a small sig saying what you want is better then no sig at all.
Just tryin to help

Thanks.


Er... Please explain this

Alright, I'm going to assume you know that Luna roughly means moon, right? Luna was the ancient moon goddess and Luna is the latin word for moon; and the goddess is often considered to be the sun's queen.

[Alfonzo]

Alright, I'm going to assume you know that Luna roughly means moon, right? Luna was the ancient moon goddess and Luna is the latin word for moon; and the goddess is often considered to be the sun's queen.
Yes, I can see where you are coming from, but it seems like a bit of a stretch to me :shrug:. What links Ron to the sun though, other than the king reference (if that what you mean?)?

[stic]

fredFancier wrote: reread the parts about SPEW in GoF and OotP (...) Harry felt the same as Ron did about SPEW Yes, at the beginning he believed it to be a waste of time.
He was then undeniably glad to be proven wrong when Hogwarts' employment of Dobby showed him that some elves do enjoy payments and clothes and freedom and individuality. :tu:
Harry then moved on to constructively criticising Hermiones "Free all elves" with "Well, maybe not all elves" when he said that hopefully the other elves wouldn't look too closely at Winky.
Throughout OotP Ron never ceased to overtly belittle and condescend Hermione personally for what she was doing. And I for one, think that openly delcaring how you feel about a matter "The elves don't want to be free" would be much healthier for a relationship then keeping things bottled up just to avoid hurt feelings. Some elves want to be free, and other thinking creatures deserve more rights so why would it be so smart of Ron to condescend and disencourage Hermione entirely from her efforts?? :huh: With Ginny saying she and Michael broke up- he said choose someone better next time while looking at HarryHe doesn't trust Ginny enough. Ron fears Ginny might get seduced or tricked by the guys that want to date her. That's why he dislikes Ginny's boyfriends. Ron doesn't get Pa-Ron-oia with the thought of H/G because he trusts Harry, not his sister. :td:
Equally, Ron didn't trust Hermione at the JuleBall, he believed she got herself duped by Krum.

[snoopy_bombay]

Thanks.



Alright, I'm going to assume you know that Luna roughly means moon, right? Luna was the ancient moon goddess and Luna is the latin word for moon; and the goddess is often considered to be the sun's queen.

wow!where did you learn this?

[EmilyRose]

The moon is often considered to be the sun's sister, which is entirely different than being the queen. It's too much of a stretch for me--word association often is. The dream analysis, I believe, has much more to do with how Harry's feeling at the time he goes to sleep than it does about some hints JKR is throwing us about the character relationships via Harry--he's not that perceptive with girls awake, let alone asleep.

[IceKat55]

Alright, I'm going to assume you know that Luna roughly means moon, right? Luna was the ancient moon goddess and Luna is the latin word for moon; and the goddess is often considered to be the sun's queen.
But unfortunately, these books aren't based on mythology, and Luna wasn't in Harry's dream, sitting by Ron's side and wearing a crown. ;)

[The Garbage Man]

Alright; here's an essay I found concerning the interpretation of the dream. (I am terrible at that sort of thing) It's long-winded, but provocative. Some of you may recognize it. Author=Sienna, hope she doesn't mind me using it. http://www.talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=9454&st=45

-----------------------------------------

Harry dreamed he was back in the D.A. room. Cho was accusing him of luring her there under false pretenses; she said that he had promised her a hundred and fifty Chocolate Frog cards if she showed up. Harry protested.... Cho shouted, "Cedric gave me loads of Chocolate Frog cards, look!" And she pulled out fistfuls of cards from inside her robes and threw them into the air, and then turned into Hermione, who said, "You did promise her, you know, Harry.... I think you'd better give her something else instead.... How about your Firebolt?" And Harry was protesting that he could not give Cho his Firebolt because Umbridge had it, and anyway the whole thing was ridiculous, he'd only come to the D.A. room to put up some Christmas baubles shaped like Dobby's head....
Chapter 21, The Eye of the Snake, Page 462 (OotP, American Version)



Okay, lets see. First of all we need to determine two things – what the various symbols used by Harry’s subconscious mean (to Harry) and what the dream is ultimately about.

The symbolic nature of dreams often makes it hard to obtain a clear picture of either of these things. Straight away I am struck by the passive role that Harry has in this dream. It seems clear to me that as a dream it is a message of some sort from his subconscious about an issue that he needs to think very seriously about. In other words, it is not only a representation of the present but of the future also.

When the dream starts, Harry is in the D.A. room. From the evolution of the DA in canon, we can make pretty accurate decisions about what this might represent for Harry in this dream. To recap quickly, the DA is an idea of Hermione’s that Harry is at first reluctant to go along with but that quickly becomes the most important (and personally rewarding) part of his life at Hogwarts. At a time when everything else in Harry’s life is going badly, the DA represents for him his one light in the sea of darkness. At one point, the narrator even tells us that if it weren’t for the DA, 5th Year at Hogwarts would be a nightmare for poor Harry.

Quite apart then from the way in which the DA connects Hermione to Harry, the DA room here represents the context of the dream. It tells us that what will follow is connected not only to Harry and Hermione but is ultimately important to Harry’s battle with Voldemort (the DA room being the place where Harry and his friends learn spells to defend themselves against Voldemort in the ultimate battle that they believe will take place in the future).

The introduction of Cho at this point tells us about the subject of the dream. This dream is ultimately about love and how it fits into Harry’s life. It connects the theme of love to the theme of Harry’s battle with Voldemort. Cho in this dream represents Harry’s relationship with her. In the dream, she accuses him of luring her to the DA room under false pretences – in other words, luring her into his life under false pretences. What might these false pretences be? The clue to that is in the chocolate frog cards.

… she said that he had promised her a hundred and fifty Chocolate Frog cards if she showed up…


Harry’s subconscious is telling him that Cho’s sudden interest in him is not connected to Harry as a person (however much we might speculate that Cho does sincerely ‘like’ Harry) but to something else, represented in the dream by the Chocolate Frog Cards. When trying to decide what the cards might mean in this context, we once again go back to canon. The Chocolate Frog Cards are collectible items that detail famous witches and wizards. We are given many examples of these wizards including Dumbledore, Merlin and Morgana (to name a few).

What do all these wizards and witches have in common? They are famous for having done or achieved something; exactly like Harry himself. In fact, one suspects that if Harry survives his ordeal, he may very well end up on a Chocolate Frog Card himself.

So then, putting this information together, Harry’s subconscious is telling him that Cho’s interest can be traced back, amongst other things, to the fame and glory associated with his being Harry Potter and the ‘other’ Triwizard Champion besides Cedric. Harry protests, and well he might, for he never knowingly played on this fact to attract Cho to himself. The fact that it was his connection to Cedric that attracted Cho, is further developed when she says:

"Cedric gave me loads of Chocolate Frog cards, look!" And she pulled out fistfuls of cards from inside her robes and threw them into the air …


Cedric brought to Cho glory and glamour. In GoF we see the pleasure that Cho derives out of Cedric’s achievements and his successes in the Triwizard Cup when she beams up at him in pleasure after his success in the Second Task. I am not trying to suggest that Cho did not sincerely feel for Cedric, but she is presented with this element of superficiality and this is reinforced by the messages we see in this dream.

She throws the cards up in the air which very literally represents Cho throwing her relationship with Cedric in Harry’s face. Harry for his part maintains that he never promised her that he could be a substitute for Cedric and on the surface he didn’t.

This point represents the end of the first half of the dream – it outlines the problem. The problem is that Cho’s attraction to Harry is based on superficial considerations and not on true heartfelt attraction for Harry as a person. This is something that Harry feels he did not encourage, but at this stage we enter the second half of the dream – the explanation and suggested solution.

As Cho turns into Hermione, his subconscious tells him that he did, unknowingly, bring this about for himself:


"You did promise her, you know, Harry ...”

How did Harry promise her? Doesn’t this seem on the surface of it just a little unfair? Well, yes, until we remember that Harry has had a crush on Cho since PoA; a crush that has lasted 2 years, despite a lack of any knowledge of Cho as a person. We also remember that Harry dreamt and wished to be in Cedric’s place, imagining Cho’s look of admiration being bestowed on him rather than Cedric. In many ways in GoF, Harry wanted to be in Cedric’s position. So yes, he did promise her … in a manner of speaking.

So having told him that he attracted this superficiality into his life by bestowing his love in a superficial manner himself, he is told by his subconscious that the solution is to:

… give her something else instead.... How about your Firebolt?



In other words, next time give a girl your heart. But by ‘her’ the subconscious does not mean Cho. By ‘her’ the subconscious means someone more worthy … which is why ‘she’ turns into Hermione.

What a crafty bit of imagery we have here. In his waking life, Harry is worrying about his ‘relationship’ with Cho (if it can be called that), so in his dreaming state, his subconscious attempts an explanation.

The problem is, it asserts, that your relationship with Cho is superficial and based on no substance. The solution, it cunningly asserts, is to next time give your heart to someone more worthy. Someone like Hermione, perhaps, the subconscious suggests, as Harry’s current love interest turns into a girl that Harry’s subconscious has already identified as the one more worthy of Harry’s love.

It is at this point that the dream starts turning ridiculous as Harry protests that Umbridge has his Firebolt and anyway he was only here to put up some baubles shaped as Dobby’s head. In other words, that’s too close to the bone, thank you very much. He protests that he could not possibly do such a thing, his heart is hostage to circumstances beyond his control, he has other things to think about such as the war against Voldemort etcetera etcetera. In the moment after his subconscious suggests that the solution is staring him in the face, Harry’s conscious side begins to panic, realising as it does how close to home the message hits.

It is no coincidence that in the events following this dream, Hermione plays a pivotal role in saving Harry from the horrors of his own fears and neuroses. The subconscious is always more than a step ahead.

The dream presents to Harry a truth and it is a truth that he cannot outrun. He will eventually have to confront it in his waking life as well as in his dreams. It is only a matter of time.

Sienna
H/Hr is canon

[FredFancier]

Originally Posted by The Garbage Man
On a side note, the name Luna means 'Moon', which is the 'Queen'; which is what I believe the foreshadowing of 'Weasley is our King' is all about.
On a different side note, the dream that Harry had of Hermione and Ron wearing crowns is much more commonly known then Luna meaning Moon which is also Queen (which maybe we looked in different places but I didn't find the queen thing) so I believe the Weasley is our King thing, if it foreshadows romance, then it is foreshadowing R/Hr (besides Ron thinks Luna is crazy (as does Neville), Harry used to but now does not)
or perhaps- the weasley is our king thing is just a mean song that Slytherins made up which turned to a good song that Gryffindor supporters sang, and is not at all shippy. Afterall these aren't romance books.
Alright, I'm going to assume you know that Luna roughly means moon, right? Luna was the ancient moon goddess and Luna is the latin word for moon; and the goddess is often considered to be the sun's queen.
thanks for elaborating :)
however there is no evidence that JKR uses legends like the one you mentioned. Afterall the legend of Romulous and Remus has turned out not to be true. (I'm pretty sure JKR confirmed this)
besides very few people know about Luna the moon goddess. And also- Ron is not the sun.
I still say if it was meant to be shippy- its R/Hr (though we are all entitled to our opinions)

[snoopy_bombay]

Maybe spew might end up bringing h/hr closer.Remember dobby's a good friend of harry's now.

[The Garbage Man]

But unfortunately, these books aren't based on mythology, and Luna wasn't in Harry's dream, sitting by Ron's side and wearing a crown

No, of course they're not based on mythology, but authors (Like JKR) use mythology and other sources (Such as the wand cores and the celtic woods; remember that on her site?) to foreshadow later events.

[IceKat55]

Alright; here's an essay I found concerning the interpretation of the dream. (I am terrible at that sort of thing) It's long-winded, but provocative. Some of you may recognize it. Author=Sienna, hope she doesn't mind me using it. http://www.talk.portkey.org/index.php?showtopic=9454&st=45
I've read that, thanks for re-posting though. It's quite - er - inventive. :)

[FlyingPhoenix]

This dream was are very misserable one which indicate how bad Harry would take R/Hr, nice way to show us this. JKR got her own ways there.

[Tzigone]

I'm vaguely curious about some things that are related (think: cousins) topics. I realize that the movies and the books are different entities, but I wonder what affect the movies have had on our book-based shipping tendancies, if any, and what you think they say about what will happen in the next books (or if they say nothing at all).



Movies had nothing to do with my shipping. I first heard of HP when I saw a bit on the news about folks lined up around the block for GOF. Was interested in reading the book, friend at college said the books were good. The move just looked bad to me. The commercials actually put me off reading the book. But I like sci-fi and fantasy and kept hearing good things, so I asked for the book from a friend for Christmas. I knew Harry Potter went to a wizarding school and I think I knew those other two kids from the promo would be involved, but didn't know their names.

After reading SS, my friend asked me if I though H/H or R/H. She said she'd thought it would be H/H, but by the end of the movie (she hadn't read the book) she'd been R/H. I told her that I'd never considered H/H and was totally R/H. She wasn't too interested in reading the other books, but was looking forward to the movies. My sister and I (we share books) ordered COS within a week. Read POA and GOF within a month. Were both totally R/H.

Didn't see the movies till later, and frankly wasn't impressed. The third is much better than the other two, special effects and acting wise, but they're all very pale shadows of the books to me. The primary reason I went to the third movie was so I could complain about all the things it changed freely. I was quite upset with the lack of clues about Ginny is COS and the very obvious werewolf clues in POA. I don't mind some changes from book to movie but can't stand what they did to Ron (and wasn't particularly pleased with Harry in the first two movies). And two characters in particular that everyone thought were fantastically cast, I thought were poorly cast. I am somewhat of a movie-basher, but can aknowledge that there is a degree of foreshadowing in them. However, I think for the most part that they only foreshadow things that have already happened in the books (by imo giving us R/H shippiness in POA instead of GOF) rather than things that have happened in books not yet published or written.

[dark_kneazle]

No, of course they're not based on mythology, but authors (Like JKR) use mythology and other sources (Such as the wand cores and the celtic woods; remember that on her site?) to foreshadow later events.

Yeah but not always, like the remus lupin twin thing

[The Garbage Man]

I've read that, thanks for re-posting though. It's quite - er - inventive.

As Harry's dreams are nearly always relevant to the storyline in some way, this is the most clear interpretation. Unless you're implying that JKR wrote nearly a page of text for no reason at all, by all means offer your own.

[Alfonzo]

Maybe spew might end up bringing h/hr closer.Remember dobby's a good friend of harry's now.
Possibly, but I thought that neither Harry nor Ron were very interested in S.P.E.W... It is interesting to note that Harry doesn't make an effort to let Hermione know that he recognises her efforts and good intentions :eyebrows:. Harry is quite insensitive about the whole S.P.E.W matter actually.