Muggle-borns, Hogwarts Admission and Magical Secrecy

[huffellpuff]

The MOM has a great job in keeping wizards and their world a secret from the Muggles. Hermione didnt know she was a witch until she received her letter to go to Hogwarts. Wasn't she scared or thinking it was maybe a joke? How would Muggles know about Hogwarts? How did she know this ws the real thing? Also, what is stopping her parents from going around and telling everyone about wizards and their world? We know her parents were in Diagon Alley in Book 2. (Yes - we are assuming her parents are noble and wouldn't want to harm their daughter in any way - but my question is hypothetical)

[Emilia]

Good point!
There must always be a risk involved when Mcgonagall sends the letters to magical muggle children when they turn eleven. Someone has to think it's a joke or want to tell the world. Maybe the MOM has a special department who handle such things?

Another problem that occured to me was; When Hermione did find out she was a witch, how did she find out about diagon alley, and plattform 9 3/4, a special letter for muggle kids? Where did she find all her books for background reading?

[jodiekins]

Oh right! That's a good question... Hmm... Yeah, cause harry didn't know anything about it either... Well, maybe when you send an owl, they send you instructions or something

[Emilia]

Maybe Neville's grandmother helped her? Hagrid was sent to help Harry, maybe a witch or wizard living close by gets to help the muggle children adjust, and check how the parents and children are reacting to the news?

I thought of Neville, because Hermione seemed to be sitting with him on the first train ride to hogwarts, she came in and asked Ron and Harry if they had seen his toad. And she does help Neville with his homework, Neville even asks her to go to the yule ball. Perhaps he's her first wizard friend?

Okey. End of wild speculation.

[Knight]

I've seen this question before elsewhere and if I remember correctly the eventual concensus was that specially trained wizards are sent to personally introduce the wizard world to muggle born wizards and their families. Granted that's over-speculating a bit, but if this problem keeps you up at night you can use this to rationalize things.

[DarlingChild]

Come on, really. If someone came up to you in the middle of the street (you, of course, being a skeptic of the HP books) and told you that wizards exist and their kid was just shipped off to a magic school and there was a sport called QUIDDITCH...would you really believe them or just think they'd read too many fantasy novels, or that they were just a raving lunatic?

They could tell whoever they wanted...but really no one would believe them. Us Muggles don't believe in magic, remember? ;) We're fairly hard to convince...look at the Salem Witch Trails for pete's sake!

[Ronman]

Yery Good Point,
I'd Say They Are Loyal & Wouldn't Hurt The Wizarding World In Anyway.

[Qeomash]

Perhaps, in Muggle messages, there is a phone number they can call (possibly someone who lives nearby) who can then answer their questions, guide them to Diagon Alley, and show them how to get onto platform 9 3/4. Personally, if I recived a letter today, I'd throw it away thinking it was a joke.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

If the kids have real magical potential, they've probably exhibited signs of it already, as Harry did. I'd think a fair number of parents would read the letter and think, "Well, that explains a lot."

Besides, how does Hogwarts find potential first-years to begin with? They must somehow observe the kids and their families, so they can determine if there are going to be problems.

[daniel4hp]

Rowling said there is a quill and parchment in Hogwarts, and everytime a child is born with magical powers, their name is written down.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Cool. I didn't know that. :) Does it write down exactly how powerful they're going to be, though? There's apparently some kind of selection process at work, or Neville wouldn't have been so worried about not being magical enough to go.

[daniel4hp]

Probably to be written down they have to have a certain amount of magic, and they were afraid Neville just wasn't magical enough...

[lanifiel]

I imagine that there are teams of Wizards standing by when letters are sent out to Muggle Parents, just for security sake :D

[pasalita]

*bump*

[GodricSlytherin]

Me remember somethign about Hemiones parents, I will look it up and post it later. But that makes me think that maybe Neville and HErmione do know each other...from before school

[dorcasderr]

It seems logical that Muggle families are sent more information with the first letter. Harry wasn't sent this because his parents had been Magical and it was assumed (at least to judge by Hagrid's reaction) that his Muggle family would have told him about his Wizarding heritage. Wizard/counsellors also make sense.

[aragog]

The Neville/Hermione theory makes sense to me. I'm sure they could have also sent new students (from Muggle families) some information or books, since we know that Hermione has definitely studied up on Hogwarts: A History before ever coming to school. Just as there is a book list for class, there is probably a book list for more info on the Wizarding world ("Witchcraft & Wizardry For Dummies"?)

[zora_domina]

I like several of the comments on this thread:

Thinking about Neville and Hermione having been introduced slightly before going to Hogwarts makes sense, though I'm sure he was terrified of her. (Wouldn't you be? You're borderline squib material according to your own whole Wizarding family, and here's this prodigy Muggle born girl who wants to know *everything* about your magic...)

"That explains a lot!" Makes SO much sense. If there were magic, we'd probably have a pervasive on/off switch in the human psyche. If you're not going to be able to do magic, EVER, it's just turned to "off" and you don't recognize any of the signs of it. If you are part wizard, descended from or somehow related to, or just plain have the gift, it's "ON" and you'd just be able to accept that there are wizards, witches, dragons, etc, without worrying about it.

I also agree with (and was going to respond if it hadn't been posted) that "who would believe it anyway?" It's part of the on/off switch. Even if someone were to start telling everyone that "magic is real! There are witches!" Who in their "right" mind would believe them?

I wrote a shortish story about someone who discovered a whole civilization of psionic creatures living in the background of the human collective mind, and she put everything she knew onto the internet. The creatures were about halfway to having her strung up when they realized too that in this day and age, who the heck is going to believe any of that??

So, it's safe to say that Muggles will be informed when they need to be. I bet they'd just as easily be memory wiped afterward, too. Just in case.

-zora

[hermiones mum]

So, it's safe to say that Muggles will be informed when they need to be. I bet they'd just as easily be memory wiped afterward, too. Just in case.
Now I know why I'm so forgetful and why I keep losing my keys :eyebrows:

[Scotlandking85]

Harry will just have to ask Hermione, Justin, or any other muggle born.

[Alastor D]

Originally posted by hermiones mum (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=210403#post210403))
Now I know why I'm so forgetful and why I keep losing my keys :eyebrows:


You forgot what Arthur Weasley told about shrinking keys?

[smartypants]

Originally posted by huffellpuff (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=115726#post115726))
The MOM has a great job in keeping wizards and their world a secret from the Muggles. Hermione didnt know she was a witch until she received her letter to go to Hogwarts. Wasn't she scared or thinking it was maybe a joke?

Scared, why? Nervous maybe...
And yes, I guess most people will react with 'This must be a joke" at first, but in the face of overwhelming proof you finally accept it, right? I mean once you have been to Diagon Alley it's not much denying it will help. :D

I also guess muggle-borns get some special treatment. Maybe a wizard deliver the letter in person, or maybe there is a department in the MoM for this purpose. :p

Also, what is stopping her parents from going around and telling everyone about wizards and their world?

Well, since there are at least some five or ten muggle borns each year at Hogwarts, that would mean that there are thousands of muggle around Great Britain that knows. There aint no way you can keep such a "conspiracy" together without somebody telling, by intent or by slipping. So I guess every muggle that needs to know for one reason or another simply gets a spell on them, so they CAN'T speak to people who don't know, even if they wanted to.
They would probably not be told that they were under this spell either, you don't want to go around telling people that they are under that type of spell. :)

[Ronman]

Maybe They're Like The Dursleys & Try To Hide The Fact (Whoever) Is A Witch/Wizard

[Phoenix_Fawkes]

If i got a hogwarts letter today! Oh my god i would jump up and down for hours then i would turn it over and look on the back and in tiny little letters this is not real please do not attempt to show up in diagon alley theres no suck thing! I would kill the person who sent me it! errrrrrrr

[Barbara Kennedy]

Would this thread tie in with the one "How did Hermione Find Platforn 9 3/4 and Diagon Alley?" [or whatever the exact title is]

[Potassium]

^ More than likely.

Mrs Dursley ranted about how Lilly's parents were so proud that they had a witch in the family, so I assume she exhibited some stuff like Harry did and when her parents got it, they did the whole "that explains a lot" thing. S'a good theory, for sure :D

I also agree with the whole wizarding families visiting Muggle-borns beforehand and laying things out for them. Perhaps that's how Hermione and other Muggle families get into the Leaky Cauldron for the first time?

And with Muggles blabbing, I think the spell thing is plausible, but they probably just say their kids are off at some foreign boarding school and leave it at that. Or they could mention that it's Hogwarts and leave out all the magic stuff.
"Oh, where does your kid go?"
"Hogwarts. It's this really advanced school off in *insert random foreign country here*"
"oooh"

[Goldie]

My best guess is that a muggle-born witch or wizard brings the letter personally - they'd know how to act and dress like mugles, and could come right up to the front door and ring the bell.

Who better to explain things to the muggle parents, answer their questions, and even prove, by performing simple spells, that they were telling the truth?

[Mary Jane]

I have to agree with the idea that a witch or wizard visits the muggle family to explain the wizarding world and perhaps do some demonstrations for skeptics. Then at the end of the visit if the parents say the child can't or the child doesn't want to, they simply perform a memory charm so they don't remember anything about the wizarding world.

- OR - Maybe they start out with a "recruitment" letter like a regular school, the parents meet them in London for a "tour" and they are taken to Diagon Alley for a "tour" of the wizarding world. That way they can kill two birds with one stone, recruiting and school shopping. :D

That last bit is probably too deceptive for Hogwarts though.

[*Stacy*]

Hi-newbie here!

Just reading through the forums and had stumbled across this topic, which is something I've always wondered about too-and in re-reading CoS recently I came across where Colin first meets Harry and says

"It's amazing here isn't it? I never knew all the odd stuff I could do was magic til I got the letter from Hogwarts. My dad's a milkman, he couldn't believe it either"

So this is implying to me that the muggle borns are just recieving a letter. However, if Colin was aware he could strange things, maybe the parents notice their child is slightly diferent and the wizard thing isn't as much as a surprise? I know if i was a parent and my child recieved a letter to attend a "magical" school, I'd sure wonder!

[gred&forge4ever]

I don't think that a spell is cast on Muggle parents to keep them from blabbing. Remember when Justin said that he Mum realized that it would be usefull having a fully trained wizard in the family? The Muglle parents probably are quiet, as the rest of society would think that the are nut jobs if they showed pictures of their kids at the office and said" Oh Mildred, this is my eldest daughter Hermione, she's in training to be a fully qualified witch" The little men with butterfly nets and straight jackets would cart off the Muggle parents for sure. Perhaps a Memory Charm is
placed on Muggle parents who decide NOT to send their kids to Hogwarts :)

[Raven]

It seems like, eventually, some loose lip parent would start chattering about Hogwarts. I wonder what the Wizarding world does to prevent this.

Any ideas?

[OrioCookie]

Well, its seems like a big thing if all of a sudden your child can make the cat levitate and not something you just kep in the back of your mind and may mistakingly slip out at anytime. Muggle parents seem a lot more mature than wizards and witches (Well, can we really base this on the Weasleys and the Malfoys?) and more cautious. They would probably catch themselves in time or have a realistic cover-up.

[enchanted]

Erm...maybe they have some type of spell that prevents them from doing so?Lol...never thought of this question before..

[Fuchsia]

I think this topic exists but I can't find it due to the search function not working. :) Maybe a mod knows where it is. It belongs in the great hall in any case.

I always wondered if the child of the loose lipped parent would be in trouble? Or perhaps they perform memory charms when they learn of this happening? A parent thinks their kid goes to St. Brutus' or Eton while they are really at Hogwarts.

[Lady Greyjoy]

It seems to me that if so many wizards are muggle born that soon enough most muggles will know of the wizarding world ;D

[GryffindorSeekerHP]

I'd think that they'd have some sort of spell or something on them that prevents them from telling. I've never thought about this sort of thing either, but, maybe if the parents tell, the people they tell it to would think that they're off their rocker.

[Louise Moran]

Good one. :rotfl:

[HPviolinist85]

I'm willing to bet that in the letters to muggle parents, he asks them not to talk about the school to others. If the parents are liberal enough to send their child to a school like hogwarts to study magic, then I think the parents will be respectfull enough not to talk about it to others and will know better.

[rotsiepots]

This topic is currently being discussed in a thread entitled Muggle-borns, Hogwarts Admission and Magical Secrecy (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4198). You can find this thread in the Great Hall.

I'll merge these two now. :)

[Shells Bells]

I'm pretty sure that this thread will get merged with the one about Diagon Alley and Platform 9 and 3/4's, but I'm going to reply any how. ;)

I think that if as a parent (Yep I got kids) I were to recieve a letter telling me that my child had been accepted to a wizarding school I'd toss the letter in the trash because it would seem so totally off-the-wall.

However once I found out that the whole thing was "real" I'd keep my big fat mouth shut because, . . . . who would ever believe me if I told them that . . . ."Oh by the way this is my son and He's a wizard" Yeah right they'd find me a nice little room with padded walls. So I don't think that muggle parents need a memory charm. The thought of what the rest of the muggle world would think is enough for them to not mention anything about the wizarding world.

[GryffindorSeekerHP]

I like that...a nice little room with padded walls. I'd also probably throw the letter out...I'd be like "Wha? Riiiiight... :;mutters something about joking around with people's love for Harry Potter::" lol

[Shells Bells]

:rotfl: Yep just toss in some "nice young men in clean white coats" and I'd be a happy camper.

But, back to the topic, there's nothing like being made fun of to encourage someone to keep their lips zipped. :angel:

[Auror Williamson]

I was thinking about the acceptance process this morning and came upon this piece of possible discussion.

Moderators, if this has been discussed before, (atleast I tried and did a search.) please close this thread.

We all know that Prof. McGonagall is the one who writes and sends out the acceptance letters to the incoming first years.

If there is a muggle-born living only with muggles, how does McGonagall compose the letter? If the parents read that it is a witchcraft and wizardry school, they are sure not to let the child go. My theory is that Flitwick performs a charm on the letters that say Witchcraft And Wizardry on it only when the first year reads it, while the same charms makes sure that the letter says (for example purposes) "Hogwarts School of Composition and Mathematics" when a muggle parent reads it.

I have a feeling that a good bit of the people who venture to this thread to read won't understand what I'm talking about, but feel free to ask questions so that I may be able to better clarify my query.

[Padfoot127]

Well, Hermione's parents knew it was a school for magic, and she said that(paraphrazed) "my parents were delighted when I got my letter." So they must know that it was a school for magic and they let her go.

[Oo bUMbLE bEE oO]

What I wondered was how McGonagall knew who to send the letters to if the wizard or witch was muggle-born. I don't think McGonagall would lie to muggle parents about their school. Which makes me wonder, are you allowed to NOT enroll in Hogwarts?

[Auror Williamson]

J.K. said in an interview that their is a magic quill that writes out all of the magical kids when they are born.

[LESTRANGEMUSTDIE]

Which makes me wonder, are you allowed to NOT enroll in Hogwarts?

i think so. the letter just tells you that you are accepted, not that you are required to attend the school.

[invisablethestral]

I think it is writen as plain as it is. The magic quill writes downs the names of new-born wizards/witches, but not the letters to be sent out. I dont think charm work is involved, but its hard to believe that muggle parents would believe that magic was indeed real. Perhaps only a certain amount of sent out letters are accepted by believers. Still, as parents they may of noticed certain abilities in their child and be inclined to accept they have magical abilities.

[sindatur]

I'm inclined to agree with Invisible Thestral, that the parents must have seen strange things occuring around the child since a very young age, and the letter kind of explains it. Perhaps there is an orientation meeting of sorts, and the letter is hand delivered or something so it can be explained to the parents. If the parents are unbelievers and refuse to accept, I imagine there is some sort of memory charm used to make them forget (So the "wrong" people are not informed of the existence of a magical community).

I do remember some discussion on this, one theory was maybe there is a more explanatory letter for Muggleborns that are new to the concept, and the standard one for Wizard born. I believe that discussion took place in the Book 4 formus?

[MaraudersGirl]

I think that the parents can see 'Witchcraft and Wizardy' and might know what it is if someone in thier family had been magic before. After all, Hermione's parents know about it.

[SkivingSnackbox]

What happens to the child if the muggle parents won't let that child go? Would they still be considered a witch/wizard? Could they become a trained witch/wizard later on?
I wonder if they have to convince one or the other muggle parents to let the child go. I mean if I would receive a letter like that, I am not sure I would believe it... not in today's world anyways.

[JenJen]

I would imagine that maybe muggle-borns have their letters hand-delivered, and someone explains what's going on to their parents, so they'll be more accepting.

[azkaban]

did you realize every muggle-born tells that his/her parents were glad they got an acceptance letter from a wizardy and witchcraft school? for instance, petunia told harry that her parents were proud to have a witch in the family and lily was precious for them. and hermione said that her parents were delighted that she got the letter. and colin told harry that his father was surprised and curious so that's why he kept taking photos of everything, to send his father, so i guess it means that his father wasn't against of sending him to a wizardy school.
i know that justin finch-fletchley said that his mother was a bit disappointed but i guess she wasnt't "that" disappointed not to let his son give up eton and go to hogwarts instead.
i mean, aren't the muggle parents worried about where their 11-year-old child is gonna go and stay at for a whole year? it seems odd to me, how they can accept to send their child to a place they've never heard of before to make the child learn magic? how can they accept this truth at once?

[Bee]

Yeah, it seems really wierd that the parents would be so... fine with their kid being a witch or wizard. I coldn't imagine telling my parents "hello, I've just gotten a letter from a school telling me I'm a witch and can go there to learn magic spells."

[Auror Williamson]

If I were to tell that to my parents, I can guarantee you that besides saying no, they would, to be blunt, cr*p their pants.

[Lestrange]

Mine would send me to therapy. :D

..But that's besides the point. As others have pointed out, the muggle parents were happy that their children got accepted into Hogwarts, and some even curious to what the wizarding world was like. I don't think that all the parents in the muggle world are like the Dursleys, most would probably accept their child for who he/she is, and they'd want their child to be happy.

I don't know if they'd send the letter with a person from Hogwarts to explain the wizarding world to them, but perhaps they have something on the letter saying that if they'd like some more information about being a wizard, or if they have any questions, to write back via muggle post or something. I'm sure that Dumbledore is very understanding about it. :)

[azkaban]

and now that we're talking about it, i'd like to point out a question i've had in my mind for a long time. how could the muggle-born first years go to diagon alley and buy school stuff? :huh: i mean, how on earth could they know about leaky cauldron? maybe it's written on the letters sent to them but i've been wondering this since hermione said she bought a lot of books from diagon alley, other than those required by school, to have more idea about the wizardy world.
how do they know how and where to buy school stuff??? :shrug:

[Auror Williamson]

I am willing to say that a prof. or an employee from the ministry would write and tell them.

[siriusgurl]

I'm pretty shure they make shure that muggle borns understand everything, for one thing everyone thought Harry did already know about Hogwarts so they didn't bother doing that extra stuff, plus they knew Harry wasn't getting he's letters so wouldn't they know if muggle parents or even kids for that matter took it as some big joke, and I'm pretty shure they were happy ONCE they accually knew what was going on.

[Rien]

I'm under the impression that the Leaky Cauldron is under some kind of charm to only make it visible to those who know about it, though nothing as extreme as the Fidelius Charm because it would only have to be kept secret from Muggles. Maybe in the "extended-version" acceptance letters people here have suggested (which I'm inclined to agree), they tell how to get to the Leaky Cauldron, Diagon Alley and onto Platform 9 3/4.

I'm sure you're allowed to decline acceptance. Harry's letters were more persistent than anyone else's (I can't believe such trouble for any other person) and he was 'forced' from the Dursleys because of his very special circumstances. heh

[Fleur du mal]

I got a question, that maybe has already been answered, but I can't find it.

So: all the kids, and it must be something like 500 or so, go "through" ) 9 3/4 to enter the Hogwarts train. That is quite dangerous, isn't it? Harry is told that the only risky thing about it is, that muggles might see them vanish. What is very likely, imagine yourself hanging around Kings Cross because you wait for someone. You see a kid with an owl (or whatever) and *bang* he's gone. You wonder, watch again, and twenty seconds later the next child is gone exactly the same way. You'd observe very carefully then, wouldn't you? And you'd be lucky, because once you've noticed, you'd see plenty of them.

On the other hand, there is this very strict rule about underaged wizardry, and their argument is, that it is COMPLETELY forbidden to perform magic when non-magic folks can see it. That is supposed to be the worst about it.

How can they invent a somewhat clumsy way of entering the platform (they could do something else, like hidden portkeys or whatever, something not so public) when they are so anxious to prevent someone from realizing there might be something like magic? How can you be so stubbornly strict in one situation and so completely careless in the other?
I do not understand that, maybe someone can tip me off? :sigh:

[Isildur]

Fleur, I agree that Platform 9 and 3/4 is a rather risky, public way to get into the Magical world. I always wondered how no Muggle ever happened to notice hundreds of kids running headlong into a wall and poof disappearing. But I attribute that to the possibility that the wall might be hidden off in the far end of the station? Or perhaps it is in an area that people don't usually congregate at. I really dont know.

I also think that, throughout her childhood pre-Hogwarts years, Hermione exhibited strange, magical behavior, which her parents must have noticed and fretted upon. So I don't think it came as much of a surprise when Hermione received her Owl! :)

[SnorkackCatcher]

Fleur, I agree that Platform 9 and 3/4 is a rather risky, public way to get into the Magical world. I always wondered how no Muggle ever happened to notice hundreds of kids running headlong into a wall and poof disappearing.

Perhaps there's also a Muggle-repelling spell on it which makes Muggles disinclined to look at it too closely (much like the ones on the World Cup stadium).

As to Muggle parents reaction, I presume that those who don't want to let their kid go to Hogwarts get a Memory Charm placed on them. Most who let them go would probably keep quiet about it, but I suspect another charm would be used which at least discourages them from mentioning it (at any rate the talkative ones). After all, one set of parents talking about a magical school can be put down to them being crazy, but many parents up and down the country over a period of years could attract attention.

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

I think that before the letters are sent to the person, some MoM officials check out the family to see if they're trustworthy and up to the task of raising their magical child. In Book 1 McGonagall said she watched the Dursleys and after one day learned that they were bad people so I'm sure that the officers can sense what muggle born child deserves to get and one who doesn't. But that brings up the question, do all mud-bloods get into schools. For example, if i had 2 muggle parents but was magical does that make get me officially in? Let's say Dudley had magical powers, I'm not sure he would be accepted to Hogwarts.

[Barbara Kennedy]

_[Unicorn]']I think that before the letters are sent to the person, some MoM officials check out the family to see if they're trustworthy and up to the task of raising their magical child. In Book 1 McGonagall said she watched the Dursleys and after one day learned that they were bad people so I'm sure that the officers can sense what muggle born child deserves to get and one who doesn't. But that brings up the question, do all mud-bloods get into schools. For example, if i had 2 muggle parents but was magical does that make get me officially in? Let's say Dudley had magical powers, I'm not sure he would be accepted to Hogwarts.

I got the distinct impresion that McG did this simply out of personal concern for baby Harry. There was no real investigation at all.

[LaFeeVerte]

This is a question thats really been bothering me for a while now. I never could figure out how a bunch of muggles who knew nothing of the wizarding world would get so excited when they found out their child was a witch/wizard. I always got this feeling that a letter from Hogwarts was something every parent waited and hoped for. Someone on here said something about the MoM sending specially trained wizards to the muggles house to explain everything to them and that seems the most logical explaination to me. The theory that they send a wizard to scope out the muggles house before hand doesn't seem very likely to me. The only reason they did it for Harry was because of who he was and the special circumstances.

[giantsquid28]

I got the distinct impresion that McG did this simply out of personal concern for baby Harry. There was no real investigation at all.

The way that I read that scene made me think that McG was actually waiting there for DD. I don't have the book handy, but from what I remember, I am under the impression that she did not know who she was watching, nor why. Hagrid told her where she could find the headmaster, which she was anxious to do to find out if there was truth in the rumors that James and Lily were dead and Harry had survived. I don't think she knew that Harry was being taken to his relatives to live until DD told her.

Back OT, I agree with the thoughts that some wizard explains their world and hogwarts to the muggle-borns; kinda like how Hagrid helped Harry. Even after having talked to Hagrid, Harry was a little skeptical. When he was trying to find the platform, didn't he think it might be a big joke of the Dursley's. Except for the fact that he knew that they did not have a sense of humor. I know if it was me, my parents would not let me go without getting information from a viable force.

I wish Hermione or Dean had said something more when they said that they were muggle-born, so we would have a better picture.

[shawntat]

*bump*
*bump*

[Fleur du mal]

_[Unicorn]']I think that before the letters are sent to the person, some MoM officials check out the family to see if they're trustworthy and up to the task of raising their magical child. In Book 1 McGonagall said she watched the Dursleys and after one day learned that they were bad people so I'm sure that the officers can sense what muggle born child deserves to get and one who doesn't. But that brings up the question, do all mud-bloods get into schools. For example, if i had 2 muggle parents but was magical does that make get me officially in? Let's say Dudley had magical powers, I'm not sure he would be accepted to Hogwarts.

Sorry, no book at hand, but I'm 100 % positive that Hagrid says that Dumbledore accepted any student as long as they could do magic, no matter where they came from or who their parents are (somewhere in GoF); and in PS, he also speaks about the book in Hogwarts, that shows every name of every magic child born in the UK. If Dudley HAD magic powers, he'd be instantly invited and accepted (though Petunia and Vernon certainly would not let him go). :shrug:

[Vigilance]

I got the impression that it would be dangerous not to convince the parents to let their kids enroll. Young wizards have no control. This brings up interesting questions of choice and the right to refuse to enroll, the coersion possible under these circumstances, and the ultimate injustice of being magically modified because you don't want to give in to a particular system of control.

[Fleur du mal]

yeah, well technically almost everybody would be capable of driving a car; still it's forbidden if you do not own a driver's license, and even then, you have to submit to the general rules of traffic and safety.

[Vigilance]

The point being, in my previous post, that a muggle might not choose to submit to the laws of the Ministry. After all, the Ministry has no national legitimacy that we know of. British subjects wouldn't necessarily have to recognize the magical community as in any way authoritative. It would probably seem to those afraid of magic like some sort of cult. If magic goes against one's belief system, these parents might not allow precious little John or Jane to go to Hogwarts. This doesn't mean that these parents would be equipped to deal with the unleashing of uncontrolled magic.

Do you think people should have the right to reject magic put on them? I think they have the right to control their own bodies, personally. I'm interested in what the rest of you think.

[Fleur du mal]

The point being, in my previous post, that a muggle might not choose to submit to the laws of the Ministry. After all, the Ministry has no national legitimacy that we know of. British subjects wouldn't necessarily have to recognize the magical community as in any way authoritative. It would probably seem to those afraid of magic like some sort of cult. If magic goes against one's belief system, these parents might not allow precious little John or Jane to go to Hogwarts. This doesn't mean that these parents would be equipped to deal with the unleashing of uncontrolled magic.

Do you think people should have the right to reject magic put on them? I think they have the right to control their own bodies, personally. I'm interested in what the rest of you think.

That's very interesting indeed. But what do you think should the legitimation look like? Why should the Ministry have a legitimation over the wizardkind, but not about the muggles as well? Is there an election after all? If there is, you could say that this election entitles the ministry to reign the magic community, but not the muggles because they did obviously not vote. But if that's your argumentation, one could ask whether those who did not vote among the wizards themselves, can therefore not be ruled by the ministry because they gave no approbation...? So we should agree on saying that even those, who did not take part in the process of legitimation itself, can be reigned after its installment, right? This would be true for the muggles as well, wouldn't it? Well, that's nothing but some jesting, anyway:
I agree with you (at least I think so) that one should be entitled to control what's happening with one's body etc. But first of all, that's only true in theory, for example when you are delivered into a hospital with severe injuries and unconcious. Whatever happens then bases on the construct of your own will; it doesn't necessarily follow your own free will, for example when you would decide differently for religious causes, etc.
The next step is a closer look on the law itself; did you agree with it before submitting? With every single paragraph and rule? Is it a kind of contract? Can you conclude certain duties or rights for the other side, meaning the state, as well? If it is like that, one might well say that it is a contract, "Do ut des". If it is a contract, you submittet to it, without agreeing to every single rule, which could be considered somewhat short-sighted. But apparently it is like that; otherwise, crime could not exist, could it? Because the criminal is in most cases no beguiler, who seems to agree with the law, but secretly does not. He either agrees with the laws and breaks them NEVERTHELESS, or he doesn't consent in the first place. What is he supposed to do if he does not consent? Submit because there's not much else he can do? If he broke the law, would you consider him to be a normal criminal, or a terrorist, or an anarchist (because he does not obey to your rule?)?
Talking about the muggles - could it be, that they even had the RIGHT to benefit from magic? Hagrid delivers JKR's explanation (without it, the series would not work, anyway you could very well argue about it), saying the muggles would rely too much on magic, hoping it would solve their own problems. Well, understandable, right? If for instance there was an earthquake like the one at christmas, and if magic did really exist, would those poor people have not the right to hope for help? In such a case, it’d be easy for a wizard to remove very heavy rocks etc.
We’ve seen the way that the ministry itself treats muggles at the Quidditch World Cup. Mr. Roberts (if I’m not mistaken, that was the name of the guy on the camp site) is a muggle, and as he happens to be suspicious, he is constantly bewitched by the ministry guards, who perform again and again some kind of oblivious charm on him. Did anybody care whether he consented to this seeming brutal infringement on his privacy and mind? Or did somebody construct a justification, saying for example, this was for his own good? Shouldn’t he be the one to decide what is good for him and what not? We see, the ministry is somewhat light-hearted in treating other people’s rights. The Death Eaters who tormented him and his family could rely on the fact that their minds would be rearranged by the ministry anyway, does this make their encroachment somehow less criminal?
You wrote that magic might be cross with one’s personal beliefs. Well, the term “belief” does imply a certain incertitude, otherwise you would say “knowledge”. I myself do not believe in magic, you could well say it was irreconcilable with my personal beliefs. Yet, if there was somebody performing magic in front of my very own eyes, I had only two choices: ignorance and displacement, or realise that I had been wrong before and therefore KNOW better now. In case magic DID exist after all, and it would be proven, it would be nearly impossible to resent it for personal BELIEFS, right? Take a look at the christian hardliners, who run against the HP series. Their problem isn’t that they did not believe in magic (apparently they do, otherwise the whole fuzz would be completely innecessary), but that they feel that HP does glorify magic, which would be wrong because the only supernatural object that is allowed to be glorified in their views, is god himself.
I read a poll among American scientists, who were asked whether they believed in god, and over 90 % said they did. Those guys do research on the Big Bang, and so on, nevertheless, they have little problems to combine their scientific results with their personal religious beliefs. So if there was a thing like magic, I’m pretty sure that most people would have little worry to accept and go on with their lives like before (well, of course, after a certain period of persuances, terror, and violent headlines in the tabloids).
Anyway, I’d say these were my two cents concerning this topic, though it rather looks like two dollars, I’m sorry :blush: .

[Vigilance]

By beliefs, I meant that one might object to its use as e.g. a form of devil worship or whatnot. I'm no fundie but they are out there. They have the right to refuse to partake of a world they perceive to be evil. I did not mean to imply that these Muggles didn't believe magic existed. :)

As for hospitalization, if one is at all cognizant, he or she has the right to refuse treatment. So...

And as for not voting, this seems irrelevant to people who cannot agree that they live in the same world or nation. If I stubbed my toe and suddenly an organization said I had to go to toe-stubbing school to learn how to best use this newfound clumsiness, I would say, where in the constitution or the bill of rights does it say that you toe-stubbers have the right to enforce my enrollment in a school or organization that I want no part of? :D

By authorized, I mean that the national government would have to openly acknowledge the MoM authority to rule some of its citizens.

[Liv4Sirius]

I posted this originally in another thread but Barbara pointed me in this direction (thanks!)

Oh, i'm almost positive that there is additional information on the letter to Hogwarts explaining things to muggle born children. Otherwise only purebloods and halfbloods would be allowed at hogwarts, and then eventually only purebloods. Besides, i'm also sure there's a return address on the letter that they can write to if needed, but again, I think this is one of those threads that we've ventured too far on. Jo can't think of EVERYTHING. We just have to accept a lot...

[JasmineFlower]

On her official site, JK says (I think in the FAQ section) that there are special messengers sent to explain about Hogwarts to the families of Muggleborn witches/wizards.

[morgan le fay]

Besides, i'm also sure there's a return address on the letter that they can write to if needed

hmm..... well this address couldn't be hogwarts itself, could it? can muggle postal mail even reach hogwarts, or most wizards? they just use owl post. and id imagine itd be confusing and hard for a muggle born to send an owl to dumbledore, regardless of how welcoming or understanding he would be. where would a muggle born go about obtaining such an owl? :huh:

in most cases, id say that whenever a muggle finds out about anything, no matter how much they blab about it to however many people, the MoM can do memory charms. there are probably a lot of safety precautions and charms that we've never considered, kind of like how before GoF, we had never known the extent of all the tools and devices that aurors use, thanks to moody and his freaky office.

On her official site, JK says (I think in the FAQ section) that there are special messengers sent to explain about Hogwarts to the families of Muggleborn witches/wizards.

this would make sense. however, i cant find this area of the site. :shrug: anyway, this is a valid idea as the "messengers" could just obliterate memories if the family was like "omg im calling the tabloids!" ;)

[azzille]

Where to the Muggle borns say that they go to school? They cant really say they go to wizard school. Dursleys tell eveyone Harry goes to St. Brutus's but most people like their children.

[michaela]

They probably say they go to a far away boarding school.

[Remus Black]

MAybe a MoM rep helps them with their shopping.

[TaraBrady]

Is there perhaps a muggle 'front' school that all the muggle-born kids claim to go to? Children under 16 do have to be able to prove that they are in school somewhere, if they don't go to the state school, at least in the US. What's the leaving-school age in the UK? I know uncle Vernon makes up some maximum-security reform school when Aunt Marge asks, but I don't think we know what the other muggle-borns tell people.

[mistress_black]

Another thing, on the first years letter it says 'we await your owl by no later than...' (can't remember exact date) How on earth do muggles get hold of an owl... unless they can get to diagon alley and use a post owl or something, but would hogwarts allow them this knowledge before they had confirmed, incase they didn't go and blabbed, and if so the same problem still exists of how the heck do they know about the platform and diagon alley anyway?!? Glad you brought it up, its been bugging me for ages!

[ComicBookWorm]

Interesting discussion even though it is a bit wacky. Explaining how muggleborns learn about Hogwarts is a little like trying to scientifically explain how magic works.

But in the spirit of the discussion, I would think that a personal visit is required by a muggleborn witch or wizard. I would throw a letter like that away. I don't even open all my mail since I get so much junk mail. I also doubt that I would willingly meet some crackpot stranger who wanted to tell me my child was magical even though I may have noticed some odd events with my child.

Perhaps there could be lure of a scholarship to a well-repected school. When the muggle parents show up to an orientation meeting, the witches and wizards could try and convince them that magic exists. Of course, I would be certain that any magic they showed me were simple parlor tricks.

So how do you convince the parents.? I think an official contact from a muggle governmental agency might help. But how do you keep the muggles from blabbing to friends? I know I would ask around and try to figure out if anyone had ever heard of the school or magical people. I guess this where a few good charms might help.

Perhaps a field trip to Hogwarts might be convincing. It should happen sometime before the end of term of the school year prior to when the child should start, since seeing all the magical beasts and students doing magic might be more convincing than a mere auditorium presentation. Of course there could be quick charm done to make the muggles more receptive to the idea of magic.

Most parents want the best for their child, and would probably see potential benefits to the family in general by having a magical person in it. But some people will decline. I could see a family like the Dursleys declining, and I could see others decline for religious reasons. Untrained, uncontrolled witches and wizards could be a real problem. Again maybe a little charm to convince them would be needed.

It really is for the best of the child and their family. After all someone like the Dursleys would decline out of ignorance and fear. And magic in the Potterverse has nothing to do with religion since they are really just special skills, so maybe the religious objections could be overcome.

[SquibOnline]

Maybe they get a home visit?

[TaraBrady]

Another thing, on the first years letter it says 'we await your owl by no later than...' (can't remember exact date)We know that Harry's letter says that, but we also know that Dumbledore and the rest of the Hogwarts staff know that Vernon and Petunia know about magic. Hagrid was shocked when he learned that they had never told Harry anything about the magical world. Harry, then, would get the 'magical family' letter, as opposed to the 'muggle-born' letter, which would include more information about the magical world, maybe a muggle post office box that the staff has set up to contact muggle families, and, let's say, a pamphlet called "So you have a magical child."

[ComicBookWorm]

We know that Harry's letter says that, but we also know that Dumbledore and the rest of the Hogwarts staff know that Vernon and Petunia know about magic. Hagrid was shocked when he learned that they had never told Harry anything about the magical world. Harry, then, would get the 'magical family' letter, as opposed to the 'muggle-born' letter, which would include more information about the magical world, maybe a muggle post office box that the staff has set up to contact muggle families, and, let's say, a pamphlet called "So you have a magical child."
I like the pamphet.

[katie]

I always imagined something like that too, TaraBrady. The muggle-borns must get a different letter (or some extra bits) telling them about the magical word (history, Voldemort, etc). Also the extra letter must have told them how to get into Diagon Alley.
(Here's a thing I always wondered about - how come Hermione and her parents could get into Diagon Alley when they got Hermiones school books the first year? You have to tap the 3rd brick on the left (or something like that) and Hermione didn't have a wand yet.)

[emma madison]

Hermione didnt know she was a witch until she received her letter to go to Hogwarts. Wasn't she scared or thinking it was maybe a joke? How would Muggles know about Hogwarts? How did she know this ws the real thing? JKR explained in the World Book Day Chat that "In the case of Muggle parents, special messengers are sent to explain everything to them. But don't forget that they will have noticed that there's something strange about their child for the previous ten years, so it won't come as a complete bolt from the blue." ;)

Also, what is stopping her parents from going around and telling everyone about wizards and their world? Well I expect Muggle parents would know that if they do that, they'd not only be jeopardising the wizarding world, but their wizard child as well. I don't think they would do that intentionally. And I'm sure those 'special messengers' explain that the laws of the wizarding world may apply to the Muggle parents if need be, as their child is now a part of the wizarding community.

how come Hermione and her parents could get into Diagon Alley when they got Hermiones school books the first year? You have to tap the 3rd brick on the left (or something like that) and Hermione didn't have a wand yet.
I'm sure one of those 'special messnegers' helped --- probably escorted them and showed them how. Like Hagrid did, for half-blood-but-raised-by-Muggles Harry.;)

:)

[ComicBookWorm]

I agree that is what JKR said and it is her explanation of how it is done in Potterverse. I just think that real people would not be that accepting of a letter informing them their child is a witch or wizard. And if some strange person showed up at my door with that weird a story, I'd call the police.

[grrliz]

... let's say, a pamphlet called "So you have a magical child." :rotfl:

(Here's a thing I always wondered about - how come Hermione and her parents could get into Diagon Alley when they got Hermiones school books the first year? You have to tap the 3rd brick on the left (or something like that) and Hermione didn't have a wand yet.)Maybe you don't need a wand; perhaps it's just a matter of hitting the correct bricks in order (like a Muggle secret passageway) rather than using magic to open it? Actually, I'm sure if any Muggles wandered into the Leaky Cauldron with their child, Tom (the bartender) would probably just let them into Diagon Alley himself with his wand. He seems like a nice guy. :)

What I was thinking was, how many magical Muggle-borns don't attend Hogwarts because they can't accept that it exists and think magic is weird? I mean, it's a total loss of potential, obviously, but I imagine it does happen occassionally. {I mean if the Evanses had been close-minded and it turns out that Petunia could have recieved a letter, do you think she would have gone, based on her own attitudes and her parents?}

[Gwenog Jones]

What I was thinking was, how many magical Muggle-borns don't attend Hogwarts because they can't accept that it exists and think magic is weird? I mean, it's a total loss of potential, obviously, but I imagine it does happen occassionally. {I mean if the Evanses had been close-minded and it turns out that Petunia could have recieved a letter, do you think she would have gone, based on her own attitudes and her parents?}
Good point. I'm sure many muggle born wizards do not attend Hogwarts. If Dudley was a wizard, I don't think Petunia and Vernon would let him go to Hogwarts. I bet that there are many other families just like that.


I like TaraBrady's idea of the pamphlet :rofl:

[HermioneLuna]

I haven't read every single post on this thread, so I apologize if this has already been mentioned. J.K. Rowling said that in the case of muggle-borns, someone is sent to their homes to explain the situation. And if you think about it, that makes the most sense. I mean, what is one more likely to believe; an owl flying into their house, a letter from no one sent through regular mail (or post), or someone who they can sit down with and actually talk to? Someone who can answer their questions and ease their suspicions. Maybe J.K. Rowling just thought it would be obvious. She says the same thing about Harry having the Mauraders Map in Book 5; that she thought it would be obvious that he stole it back after Barty Crouch Jr. was revealed.

[Tane]

When Tom got his owl from Hogwarts to tell him he was now a student at a school of witchcraft and wizardry, how did they deal with the orphanage? Was the orphanage just for muggles or for wizards and witches too? I mean Tom went back there every summer so was someone a witch or wizard in a muggle orphanage or did they just simply accept that there was a wizard in there mist?

[HermioneLuna]

When Tom got his owl from Hogwarts to tell him he was now a student at a school of witchcraft and wizardry, how did they deal with the orphanage? Was the orphanage just for muggles or for wizards and witches too? I mean Tom went back there every summer so was someone a witch or wizard in a muggle orphanage or did they just simply accept that there was a wizard in there mist?

It was probably a muggle orphanage, but could have been any kind. What probably happened is that a representative of Hogwarts came to the orphanage and told whoever was in charge that Tom was to attend a special boarding school and that he would return during the Summer. Maybe they said that it was important to Tom's mother that he attend this school.

They didn't have to give any of the muggles crucial information. Tom hated the orphanage, they probably didn't treat him well. Maybe they didn't care where he went during the school year because it was one less person to be responsible for.

[SnorkackCatcher]

It was probably a muggle orphanage, but could have been any kind. What probably happened is that a representative of Hogwarts came to the orphanage and told whoever was in charge that Tom was to attend a special boarding school and that he would return during the Summer. Maybe they said that it was important to Tom's mother that he attend this school.

They didn't have to give any of the muggles crucial information. Tom hated the orphanage, they probably didn't treat him well. Maybe they didn't care where he went during the school year because it was one less person to be responsible for.Fair points; this would have been back in the late 1930's when there were less regulations about such things. I think the orphanage - or its head, at any rate - must have known something about it, though; somebody turning up after eleven years with a supposed request from his mother would have been highly suspicious.

It was definitely said to be a Muggle orphanage (in the Riddle-Dippet scene Harry sees in the diary); given Tom Riddle's attitude to such things, he may have hated it simply because it was a Muggle orphanage, not necessarily because they were horrible to him as such?

[LuvHP_001]

The MOM has a great job in keeping wizards and their world a secret from the Muggles. Hermione didnt know she was a witch until she received her letter to go to Hogwarts. Wasn't she scared or thinking it was maybe a joke? How would Muggles know about Hogwarts? How did she know this ws the real thing? Also, what is stopping her parents from going around and telling everyone about wizards and their world? We know her parents were in Diagon Alley in Book 2. (Yes - we are assuming her parents are noble and wouldn't want to harm their daughter in any way - but my question is hypothetical)

Good question and I'm going to answer this from opinion only.

I really do wonder how the muggle borns aren't scared that there is another world out there and they belong to it but I got a quote from an interview saying that the 2 world will never be REJOINED so that means it was before and maybe all muggles knew about Hogwarts but now everything changed,just think about it.


I think the reason her parents didn't go telling everyone because they are probably smart enough to realize that it would freak people out that their daughter is a witch but were still proud of her.

[PotionsPunk]

But how do Muggle-borns find Diagon Alley?

[TaraBrady]

The general consensus seems to be that they receive a specialized packet with an explanation of the magical world, and are probably met and escorted by a Hogwarts staff member, or perhaps by a volunteer 'magical world ambassador' of some sort. After their first year, the student could use his/her wand to get into Diagon Alley. Sort of what Hagrid did for Harry, but I doubt that Hagrid is normally on muggle-duty!

[GodricHollow]

Come on people! You get a letter telling you your a wizard at ten/eleven, your going to be excited aren't you? when your that age it all seems like fun, 'oh look, I've got a letter, oh joy! I'm a wizard/witch!!! I'll go tell my friends now...'

[FoxyDoxy]

Didn't Jo say that ambassador types are sent to muggle families to explain that their child is a witch or wizard?

[SquibOnline]

That is a good question. I guess they would get a visit from Mcgonnagol or someone. Also they are magical so deep down they probably do realise

[HermioneLuna]

That is a good question. I guess they would get a visit from Mcgonnagol or someone. Also they are magical so deep down they probably do realise

That's a good point. But Harry never suspected that he was a wizard. He thought he was an ordinary boy, even after he was told otherwise.

[DHH]

I know it's already been said twice, but J.K. Rowling is clear on this point. The ministry of magic sends officials to deliver the letter and explain every thing. Kind of like what Hagrid did for Harry. Though, I bet the official also help with changing money (believe it or not Gringotts actually changes currency) and actually tells the child how to get onto platform nine and 3/4.

[willi]

I know it's already been said twice, but J.K. Rowling is clear on this point. The ministry of magic sends officials to deliver the letter and explain every thing. Kind of like what Hagrid did for Harry

Hagrid came to visit Harry after a letter (and several hundred others) had been delivered by an owl. He assumed Harry had already read the letter so obviously before any kid of school representative arrives, the letters have already been sent and received.

[SillySpawn]

I think an official contact from a muggle governmental agency might help
I quite agree. But I think I wouldn't belive it anyway. Any guy can come and say they're from some government. They'd (the MoM and some muggle government) have to work together I think, and add some demonstration of magic. Probably I would still not believe it.

Perhaps the accidental-magic untrained children do help most with that problem.

[tarachristwen]

i think there is a liaison person between the muggle and wizarding worlds..

[LedZeppelin]

There is always the possibility that in the case of Hermione’s parents, they have just come to accept the fact that there is magic in the world and wish only the best for their daughter. And not fear what they may not understand at the moment. Which also can be seen in Hermione’s character, she isn’t liable to be blindly afraid of anything, and she is usually the 1st one to go research the topic before coming to any conclusion.