Is the Prisoner of Azkaban the key to it all?

[Smaaug]

I searched for a thread related to this but was unable to find one. I am sure someone a bit more skilled with the search engine will point out several but in the meantime I will post my thread.

Just finished reading my last book, POA. Yeah I know, did them out of order, but it did give me a bit of insight that I wouldn't have had otherwise. There is alot of things that seemed to be foreshadowing and explained. I might ramble a bit but here goes.

First Peter Pettigrew and Snape. I think they have something in common. James saved Snape's life, and Harry saved Peter's. Dumbledore states that when one wizard saves another wizards life, there is a bond created, and that its a magical bond. Could the bond created by James and/or Harry (if the time turner/GH theory comes into play) be what caused Snape to leave Lord Voldemort and become a spy? I would hate to be Snape if he hates James and Harry so much but is bound to them by a magical debt. Could the bond created by Harry with Peter be what finally saves Harry's life? That would definitely be one hell of a plot twist. Imagine the end of book seven, Harry and LV last showdown. Peter sacrifices himself to save Harry, allowing Harry to win the battle and destroying Voldemort. Harry makes his way to Peter who is now dying. Peter tells Harry that Harry was there at GH the night Voldemort and that Peter didn't recognize him until now. Peter, still being the secret keeper and all, tells Harry where it was. Harry travels back, and saves himself and possibly Snape. Defeats Voldemort but can not kill him (not human enough to be killed). After that he could travel forward (if that is possible) or die from injuries in the fight. Could explain the missing 24 hours.(told ya I was going to ramble)

Next, in PoA, Dumbledore also states that "You know, Harry, in a way you did see your father last night...You found him inside yourself." Harry's parents, even though they are dead, seem to be playing a big role in Harry's destiny and in his survival. Could it be possible that the souls of Harry's parents reside in him in some way? Look at the clues. Dumbledore's statement above. The fact that Harry took to quiditch like he was born with the knowledge. Harry's patronus. Finally the countless references to his green eyes like his mothers. Could Harry be so powerful because within him resides the power of 3 wizards (Voldemort, Lily and James Potter).

Finally, beyond the veil. Originally I thought the veil in OoTP to be a link to the dead. However in this statement made by Professor Trelawney, "Many witches and wizards, talented though they are in the area of loud bangs and smells and sudden disappearings, are yet unable to penetrate the veiled mysteries of the future." Might foreshadow that this is not a link to the other side rather to the future. Like death, the future is definitely a mystery and links to it, should reside there. Plus look at the rooms around there. You had the room full of prophecies, a clock that was time itself, a universe of stars (time is related to light, which is definitely a relation to the universe), and finally the veil room. What if they are all related. Here is the question, did JK Rowling say that Sirrus is dead or did she say he was gone? If he is dead, then it lowers the chance the veil is a link to the future. However, if she said he was gone then he may just be in the future. Perhaps permanently ahead of Harry, so that Harry will never be exactly in phase with him (ever seen the Langoliers?) Would be strange if Sirrus starts leaving clues for Harry to help him along.

Just a couple of ramblings, I will go back and look for more. Tear them apart at will.

Oh, and one question. Why did Lupin not see the time turner versions of Harry and Herimone on the Marauder Map?

[Zachere]

Peter tells Harry that Harry was there at GH the night Voldemort and that Peter didn't recognize him until now. Peter, still being the secret keeper and all, tells Harry where it was.

Peter cannot still be the Secret-Keeper for the Potters. If he was, Hagrid would never have been able to find Harry to rescue him from the rubble. And Dumbledore couldn't have told him, because Peter would have had to tell Dumbledore and then DD would have known that Sirius wasn't the SK. I got the impression that Peter cancelled the Fidelius Charm when he faked his death. If he was dead the charm would be inactive. It would probably have been a big clue if Peter seemed to be dead yet nobody knew where the Potters lived. [EDIT: No, that's silly, everyone thought Sirius was the SK. Which brings to mind the question-- did someone have to ask Sirius where the Potters lived? Hm! But Peter's still not the SK]


Might foreshadow that this is not a link to the other side rather to the future. Like death, the future is definitely a mystery and links to it, should reside there. Plus look at the rooms around there. You had the room full of prophecies, a clock that was time itself, a universe of stars (time is related to light, which is definitely a relation to the universe), and finally the veil room.

Then I fail to see why the veil room is called the 'Death Chamber'.

XD

[Smaaug]

Peter cannot still be the Secret-Keeper for the Potters. If he was, Hagrid would never have been able to find Harry to rescue him from the rubble. And Dumbledore couldn't have told him, because Peter would have had to tell Dumbledore and then DD would have known that Sirius wasn't the SK. I got the impression that Peter cancelled the Fidelius Charm when he faked his death. If he was dead the charm would be inactive. It would probably have been a big clue if Peter seemed to be dead yet nobody knew where the Potters lived.


Ahh but your not thinking fourth dimensionally. If Harry went back to his parents house the night that Voldemort attacked, the charm would still be in place and he would need the secret keeper to find the house, which is Peter.


Then I fail to see why the veil room is called the 'Death Chamber'.

XD

Got me there. Maybe they think its death, but its sort of a parallel universe. Seems more likely to be a link to death but this could give it an alternative possible use.

[Zachere]

Ahh but your not thinking fourth dimensionally. If Harry went back to his parents house the night that Voldemort attacked, the charm would still be in place and he would need the secret keeper to find the house, which is Peter.




Imagine the end of book seven, Harry and LV last showdown. Peter sacrifices himself to save Harry, allowing Harry to win the battle and destroying Voldemort. Harry makes his way to Peter who is now dying. Peter tells Harry that Harry was there at GH the night Voldemort and that Peter didn't recognize him until now. Peter, still being the secret keeper and all, tells Harry where it was. Harry travels back [in time], and saves himself ...

The Charm would have been in place in the past, yes, but you said he tells him as he is dying, before Harry goes back in time.

[Smaaug]

yes, I am theorizing that once the secret keeper always the secret keeper. Yes now in the present the spell is broken but in the past its still active. According to the spell you can only find it using the secret keeper, Peter is the secret keeper. So regardless if he tells him before he goes back, years after the spell is broken, he still tells him. So when he reaches that future point in his time, the past in linear time, Harry will have just been told by the secret keeper where to find his parents. He carries that knowledge back with him.

[Zachere]

Yes, I was just thinking that Peter doesn't really have still be the Secret Keeper to tell Harry where the Potters lived. I suppose I'm just pedantic, sorry! I think part of is that I just don't buy the whole "Harry was at GH the night LV was there" theory. I have no idea why JKR would have cautioned against using James's voice in the PoA movie, but I really don't think that's it. I mean, what would be the point of Harry going back? He can't kill LV in the past, and James is definitely dead. *shrug*

[Uterope]

I love the power of 3 theory ... I guess because I like to watch Charmed.

But it does make sence why Harry is so powerful.

as for the time travel...sometimes I think time travel will play a role in defeating voldemort but other times time travel just complicates things there's too much to be considered with time traveling so I'm not even going to try to go that route.

Good thinking with the one wizard saving another having debt to the other but I think there's more to Snape being "good" than that. What it is might be revealed 16 July :p otherwise that's between Snape and Dumbledore!

[Smaaug]

I am not sure if I believe the theory either. Seems like a bad twist to me unless forward travel is possible. However, we pretty much know that Voldemort couldn't be killed that night and that time isn't suppose to be changed. So if he did go back, after he defeated Voldemort he must set the events in motion so that Voldemort would be destroyed bad enough that he would take the steps he did so that Voldemort could be killed in the future. As exciting as it seems, I just don't think that is the route JK is going to take. I am hoping for the souls of Harry's parents residing inside him.

otherwise that's between Snape and Dumbledore!


Perhaps Dumbledore saved Snape

[hpfan_08]

You might enjoy this thread Wizard debt (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=42679&highlight=debt%2A%2A%2A) as it talks about Life Debts.

About why Lupin didn't see them on the Map, how do we know he didn't. He is quite smart he would surely figure it out himself.

Also you should bring your theories on the veil up in here Beyond the veil v2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=31469&highlight=veil)

[ComicBookWorm]

Hi, there is a very similar thread discussing Harry being in Godric's Hollow the night of his parents' death. Here it is: Was an 18-Year-Old Harry also at Godric's Hollow? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=42660)

[Uterope]

You defenately have been putting a lot of thought into HP, and I like your theories.

I've been trying to read OotP since Dec but baby and home obligatoins have kept me so busy I've only managed the first chapter. I'm thinking that maybe I should just relax until the new book arrives. I believe a lot will be revealed and clarity will be given on a lot of subjects. But it is so much fun to try and figure out what goes for what before it's been revealed. On the other hand JK would not be the great writer that she is if she wasn't able to suprize us with a few twist!

Totally off the topic.. how long before you can be second year??? I thought it was 100 post but I'm still 1st year how does this work????

[hpfan_08]

Totally off the topic.. how long before you can be second year??? I thought it was 100 post but I'm still 1st year how does this work????

Yes you become a second year once you make 100 post in threads that have post count on. (i.e. everything except the great hall, quidditch pitch, Mugglenet Editorials, and the spirit Division) In the threads that count you have a total of 75 posts. So 25 more and your there keep posting and you'll be there in no time.

[ComicBookWorm]

You defenately have been putting a lot of thought into HP, and I like your theories.

I've been trying to read OotP since Dec but baby and home obligatoins have kept me so busy I've only managed the first chapter. I'm thinking that maybe I should just relax until the new book arrives. I believe a lot will be revealed and clarity will be given on a lot of subjects. But it is so much fun to try and figure out what goes for what before it's been revealed. On the other hand JK would not be the great writer that she is if she wasn't able to suprize us with a few twist!

Totally off the topic.. how long before you can be second year??? I thought it was 100 post but I'm still 1st year how does this work????
I suggest you do read OotP before HBP since there will be a lot that refers back to it that will seem confusing unless you read it. Actually, all the books need to be read if you haven't managed that yet. :)

[Vittoria]

About the Harry being in GH theory.
If Harry does go back, he can't interfere with his parents death, he knows that. What he could do is protect baby Harry. He bursts in, just as Voldy casts AK, and adult Harry puts up a shield charm (adult Harry may be powerful enough), causing the curse to bounce back onto Voldy. Since Voldy is so powerful, AK shatters the shield at the last moment, giving baby Harry his scar...

Snape didn't join Dumbledore because of the bond, else how did he become a DE at all. I think Snape really does, deep down (like maybe in his little toe) have a consience, and realised what he was doing with Voldy was wrong, or quit in disgust when he found out he was going to murder a baby...

I don't really like the theory that James' and Lily's souls reside in Harry, I just think it would put too much strain on the body. Dumbledores comment could just be refering to how we always carry a little bit of someone in our heart (the power of love, that Voldy 'knows not' :p).

Where the veil leads. I think it may lead to the future. I don't know how to explain this, but I know in my head, I'll come back later.

[jenny_d_b]

Peter, still being the secret keeper and all, tells Harry where it was. Harry travels back, and saves himself and possibly Snape. Defeats Voldemort but can not kill him (not human enough to be killed). After that he could travel forward (if that is possible) or die from injuries in the fight. Could explain the missing 24 hours.

Sorry, but this isn't possible, because then all that would've happened then. What's done with a time turner has already happened, it's not something you can use to change the past, because it IS the past when you use it. Confusing? I can explain further. If Harry went to back to his 5th year when he was 100 years old (I don't think he'll live that long, but, who knows?) and tried to save Sirius, it would've happened in his 5th year, 85 years BEFORE he used the time-turner, not when he was hundred, to go back. It has happened. That means, Harry can't go back and try to save his parents, because if he did, that would've happened the night his parents died - even if it's 15 years earlier.

[Zachere]

About the Harry being in GH theory.
If Harry does go back, he can't interfere with his parents death, he knows that. What he could do is protect baby Harry. He bursts in, just as Voldy casts AK, and adult Harry puts up a shield charm (adult Harry may be powerful enough), causing the curse to bounce back onto Voldy. Since Voldy is so powerful, AK shatters the shield at the last moment, giving baby Harry his scar...


The Shield Charm is for minor jinxes only though, and in any case baby Harry doesn't need to be protected, because Lily did that by sacrificing her life. Not only is that stated, but the fact that for a long time LV couldn't even touch Harry rules that possibility out.

I agree with you though, I don't see what point there would be in Harry going back, and I can't think of a way that it would serve the story.

[Vittoria]

The Shield Charm is for minor jinxes only though
Well, Harry, as a powerful wizard, may use a more powerful shield charm, he just doesn't know it yet. There must be a shield against more powerful curses, otherwise there would be more killing curses classed as unforgivables...

Lily did that by sacrificing her life Thats what we assume. The only people that could tell us what happened that night are either dead or Voldy (and adult Harry, who doesn't know he was there yet). With no other explanation given to us, we have to assume it was Lily's sacrafice that saved Harry. It may save him from lesser (but still terrible) curses, but maybe not AK.

Voldy may say that Lily protected Harry, but if it all happened quickly, Voldy would not have had time to look around and notice adult Harry as he came through the door. He would make the same assumptions as us.

[Zachere]

Well, Harry, as a powerful wizard, may use a more powerful shield charm, he just doesn't know it yet. There must be a shield against more powerful curses, otherwise there would be more killing curses classed as unforgivables...

I hope there's no speculation on whether or not LV used AK at GH (yay abbreviations). I mean, green light, yada yada. It's pretty clear. We know nothing can stop it except a physical object getting in the way, a timely dodge... or Harry's method, which would be a love-sacrifice.

Thats what we assume. The only people that could tell us what happened that night are either dead or Voldy (and adult Harry, who doesn't know he was there yet). With no other explanation given to us, we have to assume it was Lily's sacrafice that saved Harry. It may save him from lesser (but still terrible) curses, but maybe not AK.

Yes, there is no other explanation. The reason for this is because the one that was given (multiple times, I might add) is valid. Not only is it mentioned numerous times, like I said before, there's evidence for it.

Anyway. I suppose it's remotely possible that the adult Harry at GH theory is true. However, I'm going to call Occam's Razor on this one. :p

[Vittoria]

Yeah, the most simple explanation is Lily's sacrafice...just thought I'd shake things up a bit.

Final (unless you think of something really good) fight for the 'adult Harry at GH' theory.
What evidence do we have? There is Voldy - who was distracted. Harry's memories of the time, only remembered through dementors, and I think dreams. Lily's sacrafice - we don't know if that was what saved Harry. Who else? Any other account would be speculation, or at best 'he saw, she saw' second hand accounts...

[Godric16]

Still the theory is that it is his 18 year old self that was maybe at Godric's Hollow when Voldemort came to kill him, though young harry has exceptional powers i doubt that he would still be able to save himself. We know that Magically, Avada Kedavra is unblockable so he may have done something like Dumbledore did using the statues to block the curse, but i doubt that the Potter's had statues lying around the house.

I also doubt that it would be so easy for Harry to cast AK, and then Voldemort would just die. I imagine it will take an excruciatingly long Duel for Harry to kill Voldemort not just one AK.

[LilCubanita67]

Could the bond created by James and/or Harry (if the time turner/GH theory comes into play) be what caused Snape to leave Lord Voldemort and become a spy? I would hate to be Snape if he hates James and Harry so much but is bound to them by a magical debt. Could the bond created by Harry with Peter be what finally saves Harry's life?
It seems as though Snape had forgotten that James saved his life. His actions towards Harry seem as if he does not owe the Potters anything, even though he is alive. So if you look at it from the perspective that Snape is indebted to James then the debt that Peter needs to repay Harry might not happen. Although some people will argue that Snape did try to save the Potter's lives: Snape at Godric's Hollow? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=30845)

The fact that Harry took to quiditch like he was born with the knowledge. Harry's patronus. Finally the countless references to his green eyes like his mothers. Could Harry be so powerful because within him resides the power of 3 wizards (Voldemort, Lily and James Potter).
Well, although he has some of Voldemort's powers, I doubt that he has any of his father's powers because his father resides inside of him. I do agree that parts of his mother lies within him, the eyes having some importance in future books for example, but I believe that his skill at quidditch is just in his genes. My father is good with working with his hands and so am I, and my dad doesn't live inside of me, it's just genes.

[asrivathsan]

Here we go!

Could the bond created by James and/or Harry (if the time turner/GH theory comes into play) be what caused Snape to leave Lord Voldemort and become a spy? I would hate to be Snape if he hates James and Harry so much but is bound to them by a magical debt. Could the bond created by Harry with Peter be what finally saves Harry's life?

I don't know about this one, but personally i don't feel Snape would leave VD because of the bond. What i have always felt about the bond is that snape would owe something to James. Just because he owes something, it doesn't mean that he would leave the dark side just because it. I have been thinking a lot about it now that you mention it. This is my theory, but there is no proof:(. We know that james & Lily escaped from VD thrice. Maybe Snape helped them in doing so... because of the bond.
Could it be possible that the souls of Harry's parents reside in him in some way?

I don't know how to explain this, but i felt that it would probably just be a bond between harry and his parents that existed in harry. Every one's parents reside in the children's heart in a way:)

Would be strange if Sirrus starts leaving clues for Harry to help him along.

It would be indeed! :p

[Godric16]

Not a bad idea 'Asri', but i think the Bond will play a major roll in Book 6 or 7. I think the Bond will come into action when Harry most needs it, like when Harry is about to be killed, he could turn on Voldemort.

[Smaaug]

Sorry, but this isn't possible, because then all that would've happened then. What's done with a time turner has already happened, it's not something you can use to change the past, because it IS the past when you use it. Confusing? I can explain further. If Harry went to back to his 5th year when he was 100 years old (I don't think he'll live that long, but, who knows?) and tried to save Sirius, it would've happened in his 5th year, 85 years BEFORE he used the time-turner, not when he was hundred, to go back. It has happened. That means, Harry can't go back and try to save his parents, because if he did, that would've happened the night his parents died - even if it's 15 years earlier.

But it is very possible. And you explained why. Harry could have been there and his actions there could have directly contributed to the way things turned out. Perhaps his father wasn't there, perhaps Harry was there in his place. Perhaps his father was killed in the front yard and Harry fended him off inside. Confused? Let me explain. Look at end of PoA. Harry saved himself by traveling back in time. Lets say he hadn't traveled back in time. He and Sirrus would then have died and the time turner events would have never happened, but because his present self saved his past self, he was still around for his present self to have a chance to effect his past self's life. (I don't know if that is a good explanation). Bill and Ted's Bogus Journey has a decent explanation of it at the end if you want to look :p

Needless to say, if this theory is true, then Harry might owe his own existance and the ability to conquer Voldemort in the future to his actions he took at GH the night his parents were killed.

[Denton56]

That was a very well-written and well thought out piece. However, I don't agree with every detail. Though I do think you may be on to something with some of your ideas.

Oh, and don't tease me with Sirius being alive. I can't take heartbreak.

[Smaaug]

Anyway. I suppose it's remotely possible that the adult Harry at GH theory is true. However, I'm going to call Occam's Razor on this one. :p

Occam's Razor basically states that all things being equal, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. So which is more likely, that Harry traveled back in time (something we already know is possible in the wizard world and that Harry knows how to do) and contributed to the event of the night his parents were attacked, or that Lily came up with some ancient spell (that we haven't seen proof exists yet) in the blink of an eye while she was under attack by Voldemort?

I hope the second is true cause I think don't really want to see a time turner ending, but it seems just as likely as the alternative.

[Zachere]

Occam's Razor basically states that all things being equal, the simplest explanation is probably the correct one. So which is more likely, that Harry traveled back in time (something we already know is possible in the wizard world and that Harry knows how to do) and contributed to the event of the night his parents were attacked, or that Lily came up with some ancient spell (that we haven't seen proof exists yet) in the blink of an eye while she was under attack by Voldemort?

I hope the second is true cause I think don't really want to see a time turner ending, but it seems just as likely as the alternative.

Yeah, I agree that a time-turner ending would be sort of unsatisfying...

However, what I meant about Occam's Razor was that we already have an explanation for what Lily did that night. And there's an abundance of evidence for it.

To throw the explanation we have aside and adopt the belief that Harry went back in time and contributed to that night, well, like I said. I suppose it's possible but I doubt it. Just my opinion, I could be wrong. :p

[asrivathsan]

There is a lot of discussion about time turner, perhaps that would interest you?