Death Eaters and the Dark Mark

[jodiekins]

Sorry if someone has already mentioned this...
In Book 4, when Voldemort is going around the circle, at the spot where he says "and here we have 6 missing Death Eaters" or whatever, I don't think it makes sense. He says there are three dead, 2 he will kill, and then his most faithful. We know the 1 faithful servant is Crouch. Then there's (these are just names I got from Karkaroff's trial) Dolohov, Rosier, Travers, Mulciber, Rookwood and Snape. If you add Karkaroff, that's 7 Death Eaters, for 5 spaces. Rosier is the only one we know for sure is dead, so that's still 6 people for the 4 empty spaces.
Unless V wasn't done going around the Death Eater circle thing, or some of those people weren't in fact Death Eaters, it doesn't work out.

[dog star]

Maybe some of them, who may have had their names cleared during the trials, apparated back to his side when the Mark burned. That's all I can figure. The 6 were ones who did not apparate back...3 who are dead (including Rosier), 1 who is fulfilling his assistant duties (Crouch), 1 who was a coward (Karkaroff) and 1 who has "left us forever...he will be killed, of course" (Snape). I don't think everyone who had their name cleared or otherwise escaped Azkaban was totally honest...that would be too easy. So, it is likely that some of the DEs who went free did return to Voldemort on that night.

[rotsiepots]

There were many, many gaps in the circle of missing Death Eaters, Voldemort just didn't mention them all (he walked past some Death Eaters without talking to them and ignored the absence of some Death Eaters). The space that was supposed to hold six missing Death Eaters was simply the largest gap in the circle, not the only gap. It was sufficiently large for Voldemort to comment on. The other spaces were probably single or, perhaps, double in the case of the Lestranges.

[DocHollidaywe]

Yeah i always thought there were several hundred death eaters, and i bet more than 6 didnt show

[Elangomatt]

I agree with everyone that the gap of 6 people was just the biggest gap. There were many other gaps where other death eaters were missing.

Originally posted by DocHollidaywe
Yeah i always thought there were several hundred death eaters, and i bet more than 6 didnt show

I agree that there are more than a few death eaters, but not several hundred. In book 4 in the graveyard scene, Harry mentions that he is outnumbered at least 30 to 1. I think Harry may have underestimated, but probably not by more than 10 or 15 people.

[Weatherby]

Perhaps some of them were killed fighting?

[Tcieneb Delonra]

I was surprised to see crabbe and goyle on the inner circle. Draco wasnt there and they are too young arent they..it shocked me

[Elangomatt]

I am pretty sure that the crabbe and goyle we see in the graveyard are the fathers of the crabbe and goyle we know. When voldie left power, draco's friends were only a year old.

[lanifiel]

Snape is the most faithful. Crouch is the secret spy...

:D

[SiriuslyBria]

Originally posted by Elangomatt
I agree with everyone that the gap of 6 people was just the biggest gap. There were many other gaps where other death eaters were missing.

That is correct... There is clearly more than a single gap in the circle:

Voldemort moved on, and stopped, staring at the space - large enough for two people - that seperated Malfoy and the next man.

"The Lestranges should stand here," said Voldemort quietly.
~Goblet of Fire, page 650 (American Scholastic paperback edition)

A few bit later we see:

He had reached the largest gap of all, and he stood surveying it with his blank, red eyes, as though he could see people standing there.

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters... three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever... he will die, of course... and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service."
~Goblet of Fire, page 651 (American Scholastic paperback edition)

Originally posted by Elangomatt
I agree that there are more than a few death eaters, but not several hundred. In book 4 in the graveyard scene, Harry mentions that he is outnumbered at least 30 to 1. I think Harry may have underestimated, but probably not by more than 10 or 15 people.

I do agree there are more Death Eaters, as several do go un-named:

He walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them.
~Goblet of Fire, page 651 (American Scholastic paperback edition)

I doubt though that there was anywhere near several hundred.

Originally posted by Tcieneb Delonra
I was surprised to see crabbe and goyle on the inner circle. Draco wasnt there and they are too young arent they..it shocked me

It wasn't them but a parent to be sure. Otherwise they would've been Death Eaters before they were born (which is impossible of course), or while they were babies. :p

There is probably at least one other Slytherin student who's parent is a Death Eater. I don't believe we've seen much of him, but a student is sorted into Slyherin that has the same last name (I think it was Nott) as one of the Death Easters, so chances are they are from the same family.

[martinnyg]

I have always thought that there were like 50 DEs

[dog star]

Originally posted by lanifiel
Snape is the most faithful. Crouch is the secret spy...

:D

I thought Crouch was the "faithful assistant." I have a hard time believing Snape is evil. LOL

[Inkwolf]

Re the three dead in his service: Snape's old school buddies, Wilkes and Rosier, were both killed by aurors. There's also the fourth wizard (as yet unnamed) who helped torture the Longbottoms. Since he's never been mentioned, you have to assume he died in Azkaban. He may be the third mentioned dead in Voldemort's service.

I think it said somewhere that there were about three dozen people there....on the old Mugglenet board, we listed all the names of Death Eaters we knew of and everything we knew about them, and there were actually right around that number. I'll have to go and see if the archive is still available, and if that's still on it...

[Mr. Granger]

Originally posted by Tcieneb Delonra
I was surprised to see crabbe and goyle on the inner circle. Draco wasnt there and they are too young arent they..it shocked me

It´s Crabe´s And goyle´s fathers that attend the meeting.
Their sons are of the same age as Harry is and not only are they not abe to apparate, but surely Voldemort would have no use for them (yet).
I can´t find the book, where their names are written down.
One son was called Vincent I believe.
When I find the book in this mess (we´re moving), I repost them.

[Johnny Cage]

Death Eaters don´t eat fake cakes and drop down unconsciously ;). They are definitely the parents of Crabbe and Goyle we know (and hate).

[Mr. Granger]

It´s Gregory Goyle and Vincent Crabbe.
Their fathers names are not mentioned.

[EvilMeghan]

I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but anyway...

In the Pensieve Trials, they were jailing people for being Death Eaters. But don't all Death Eaters have the Dark Mark on their arms? Wouldn't that be proof enough of their involvement? I don't think wizards under the Imperius Curse would have the Dark Mark on their arm, because they weren't acting under their own power and it was not necessary for Voldemort to call them directly - he could have contacted whoever was in control of them, if Voldemort himself didn't control them. The only time I think this would cause trouble would be in a case such as Snape's, in which he returned to the good side before Voldemort's downfall.

There is probably something very off with this theory...

[miri]

I don't think everyone got trials - you had to be influencial, like Lucius, who was cleared, and it's possible that the mark fades to invisible when it's not being used... I think I may have read that in fan-fic at any rate...

A very good question though :D

[pasalita]

All right - I've merged the above post to this thread since it basically concerns the Death Eaters, but is just another topic regarding them. I think it's a great question. So, to re-iterate EvilMeghan's question:

Why wouldn't the dark mark be proof enough of the Death Eaters involvement?

My answer: I suspect it's because the Dark Mark didn't appear on the arms of Death Eaters unless Voldemort had enough strength to induce it in a way. I think it's as miri said: The mark grows clearer when Voldemort grows strength and requires the Death Eaters. I mean, in GoF, the marks of both Karkaroff and Snape grow stronger throughout the book as Voldemort seems to be regaining strength and support and is actually planning his resurrection. I understood the mark to be a "summons", ya know?

Though, my theory doesn't even fly with me because, if this is the case, then the Dark Mark would have been burning on Snape's arm during Harry's first year. Still, while it wasn't mentioned in the first book, this might be a reason why Snape suspected/knew that Quirrell was being heavily influenced by Voldemort in the first place.

[Jessica]

I think the dark mark only appears when Voldemort is calling them. ALso it is not well known. When Harry told Sirius about it he didn;t know what it was and Siruis seems to know a LOT!

[pegoheart144]

Originally posted by EvilMeghan (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=222170#post222170))
I'm not sure if this has been posted before, but anyway...

In the Pensieve Trials, they were jailing people for being Death Eaters. But don't all Death Eaters have the Dark Mark on their arms? Wouldn't that be proof enough of their involvement? I don't think wizards under the Imperius Curse would have the Dark Mark on their arm, because they weren't acting under their own power and it was not necessary for Voldemort to call them directly - he could have contacted whoever was in control of them, if Voldemort himself didn't control them. The only time I think this would cause trouble would be in a case such as Snape's, in which he returned to the good side before Voldemort's downfall.

There is probably something very off with this theory...
I don't think people outside the Death Eaters knew about the Dark Mark. Sirius had no idea what that was when Harry was telling him about Karkaroff showing Snape something on his arm.

[adrliu]

I don't know if this is a valid assumption, but suppose Snape was already a professor before Voldemort fell? Wouldn't that mean that Snape would've been automatically exempt from Death Eater meetings, as you can't apparate nor disapparate from Hogwarts, which, presumably, would be something that Voldemort would know?

[pegoheart144]

Snape would have only been in his early twenties. He's the same age as James, Sirius and Remus. I don't think many become teachers right out of school.

[Scotlandking85]

I am wondering why Veritaserum wasn't used. If the alleged supporters of Voldemort had to tell the truth, this would seem a quick and easy way to find out if they are guilty. Not to mention that they could give up all of the names of the death eaters they knew of.

What I wonder about though, are the Death Eaters in other countries aound the globe. This certainly couldn't have been secluded to Britain, as shown by the Bulgarian Minister's reaction to Harry, or even to Europe for that matter.

[Jessica]

Maybe Verisaterum hadn't been invented yet. We know that Wolfsbane hadn't been invented when Lupin was in school.

[miri]

Good thinking, jessicacarstens!

Maybe, like in muggle science, a lot of advancements can be made in very short times - look at computers - I'm one of the very few people my age I knew whose parents had one before me (I think)..!

I like the summons theory - otherwise the DEs would have been in quite considerable discomfort for the period Voldemort was in power!

[Kristus_Vesanus]

Did anyone ever think about the Lestranges? Do you really think they're a married couple? I mean, there doesn't seem to be any other women in the death eaters. This doesn't really have anything to do plotwise but did you ever think the Lestranges were a father-son type thing? Something like the Malfoys and the Crabbes and the Goyles?

[EvilMeghan]

Sirius says the Lestranges were a married couple.

[Beatrice Bottbean]

The theory that Snape is a vampire has had me thinking about the oddness of Death Eaters for some time now.

First, Snape has black eyes and Lucius has gray eyes. I don't remember the eyes of any other Death Eater being described, but I found it interesting that the two sets we know about lack color. Also, I think they are both described as having pale and waxy skin.

Second, why the name Death Eaters? Is it simply b/c they were assisting Voldemort on his quest for immortality, or is there more to it than that?

I have played with theories in my head where all Death Eaters are vampires and the changed color of their eyes allows them sunlight exposure. Also, Death Eater would be an appropriate name for Death Eaters. In addition, Quirrell drinking the blood of the unicorn for Voldemort seemed vampirish. I don't really buy my own theory, however, because killing always seemed to be done with Avada Kedavra - not bloodsucking.

In any case, I do think that there is more to being a Death Eater than just serving Voldemort and I am hoping for my answers in Book 5.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Also, how did they come to be Death Eaters? Who recruited them [at least the Inner Circle?]

[pegoheart144]

It is possible there are more Death Eaters that weren't at the graveyard. It seemed as if Voldemort just summoned his inner circle.

Also regarding the Dark Mark, it seems more like a tattoo or brand. Karkaroff said to Snape that his mark had been getting clearer all year. Snape also mentions in the Hospital Wing (to Fudge) that his mark had been getting more prounced all year. The mark burns when Voldemort summons them.

[hermiones mum]

Perhaps the mark can not be seen until Voldemort summons them. I certainly wonder how beneficial it is to have Crabbe and Goyle Snrs in the deatheaters if their sons are anything to go by

[smartypants]

Not very beneficial, to go by the comments Voldemort had for them. :)

[EvilMeghan]

Some questions to ponder: How does someone become a Death Eater? How do they know who to talk to about joining? Is it a family legacy? Hmm...

[Potter80]

There could be many more death eaters. Only Voldemort knows all of them.

[Hpmons]

I personally do believe there are more DEs. I think either Voldermort summoned all the DEs, but not all of them came (they were afriad, they had left him, or they didnt believe it was happening); or he only summoned his main ones.

My guess is that Voldermort threatened a few of their families at first. They begged for mercy, and decided to follow him, becuase of fear.
For the other people, they probably had a friend who was a DE, or met some DEs when they were killing muggles; and joined them.

Or, some DEs were assigned to recruit more DEs, and the DEs bribed or threatened other people to join him.

[pegoheart144]

Oh, I definitely think that some of the Death Eaters follow him out of fear. Wormtail is a prime example of that. I'm sure it would be the same for others.

[Potter80]

The deatheaters will definetly do Voldemorts bidding. I hope they track down Karkoroff

[Barbara Kennedy]

Voldemort does use fear as a motivation, but he also dangles the carrot of power to get them to do his bidding.

[FoolOnTheHill]

I searched and didn't find anything on this. Please close this and point me in the right direction if this has already been discussed. Thanks. :D

In the days of Voldemort, you never really knew who you could trust. People you thought were your friends (Pettigrew cough cough) could turn out to be Death Eaters and betray you.

But the good side did know about the Dark Mark, right? Couldn't they just all walk around in short sleeves to show they were on the good side? And anyone who never did would have to be hiding something. Or simply say, "Before you become my secret-keeper, could you kindly show me your left forearm?" In GoF, Snape's and Karkaroff's tattoos were visible all year long, so you'd think they would constantly be visible when Old Voldy was alive. So what do you think?

[Alastor D]

I'm not sure it was general knowledge that all DEs had the mark on their left arm. Perhaps any DE could make it invisible at will, and Snape was able to show it because he wanted to show it. I don't know. Better ideas someone???

[DragonslayerX]

Right, I'm not sure if the Dark Mark was common knowledge back then or not. Or at least the tatoo of it.

[Barbara Kennedy]

The mark was invisible unless Voldie wanted it to show. At least that is what I remember from the books. [I don't have one in front of me right now.]

[FoolOnTheHill]

That would make sense BarbaraKennedy.... But I thought it was strange how it started appearing just because he was gaining strength. Of course maybe he wanted it to start appearing so the Death Eaters would know he was coming back. Hmm.

[Alastor D]

I think FoolOnTheHill is right. " It is back, he said softly, they will all have noticed it..." And later Snape said it was not as clear as an hour or so ago. He also said it had been groving cleare all year.
Obviously it fades away when Voldie doesn't need it.

[Weatherby]

That would have been a great way for Aurors to discover his supporters during Voldemort's reign but during the trials afterwards I doubt they could see them.
Karkaroff could've use the mark to help turn in other DE's if they were still there.

[rotsiepots]

I'm fairly certain the Mark is always present. Pettigrew's tattoo was at its most visible right after Voldemort was returned to his second body, however, Karkaroff remarks on the growing clarity of his Mark to Snape well before Voldemort is restored.

Here are some supporting passages:
-----
Harry saw something upon the skin there, something like a vivid red tattoo -- a skull with a snake protruding from its mouth...

"It is back," he [Voldemort] said softly, "they will have noticed it...and now, we shall see...now we shall know..."

He pressed his long, white forefinger to the brand on Wormtail's arm.

...Voldemort removed his finger's from Wormtail's Mark, and Harry saw that it had turned jet black."
-----
-----
Karkaroff remarks to Snape that, "It's never been this clear, never since --"
-----

I find Karkaroff's statements most interesting, as they seem to infer that the Mark was present at all times during Voldemort's first reign of terror.

I suppose we can only assume that the DEs disguise them with some sort of spell, or make sure to keep their left forearms hidden.

[smartypants]

Originally posted by rotsiepots (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=257085#post257085))
I'm fairly certain the Mark is always present.


Present, yes, visible, no. Because then you could just look at somebodys arm to see if they were a death eater. This would not be common knowledge, but Snape would know, and he was a spy.

It may be only visible to other death eaters, or it would only be visible when you wanted it to. While Voldemort was a non-entity lurking in dark forests, maybe it didn't show up, or showed up only very weakly, even when you DID want it to show.

[Sinistra]

Dark Mark aside, not all Voldemort's supporters are full Death Eaters. Some people helped unwittingly (like Bagman) and others were compelled with the Imperius curse. Those people probably would not have the Dark Mark. The impression is that there are very few actual Death Eaters in the whole wizarding population. You might ask if you had reason to suspect them, but a general forearm check? Waste of energy.

[Yavanna]

Yeah, I agree with Sinastra, some of them were truthfully working under the power of Voldemort, so looking at the Dark Mark would not guarantee that you are seeing a person who is a Death Eater under their own will.

[aiko amaya]

if you asked ypu could get your self blasted to smitheri9nes, rather have be unknown than be blown up. Know the devil ya got.

[GrangerGal]

Also people who have the dark mark could say that Voldemort put it there while they were under the Imperius curse. That is what made it difficult to discover who was acting with their own free will and who wasn't. Also maybe Voldemort wanted their dark marks to be visible during GOF b/c he wanted them to know that he was back... just a suggestion.

[RonFan24]

My thoughts were along the lines of Barbra's and smartypants's, that it can only be seen when Voldie wants it to be seen, or even better when he's trying to contact his DEs.

[pheonixrising]

Nope. Think in the office AFTER Harry came back.Snape showed it to Fudge. It was obviously visible. I'm on the spell to disguise theroy. It probably also faded while it wasn't touched by V

[RonFan24]

I'm sticking to my theory that Voldie uses to call his DEs to him.

[aiko amaya]

fadedd yes but probably still visible. I still stand by people were intimidated, it's sortof like when people have a crush on someone and want to know if they like them, instead of going up and asking "do you like me" or something they won't. People where probably to scared, and it probably (like many have said) wasn't very well known.

[FoolOnTheHill]

Yep, that's what I said originally- it's there before and after Voldy summons them, but not too clear. You'd think Snape would do some spell to not have it be so visible since he isn't a DE anymore. But of course, that could be useful in his spying or whatever and be a source of information kind of. Yeah. Anyway. I'm thinking along the lines of a spell if they need to hide it like a few of you said. Hmm.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Perhaps part of the magic, or curse, if you want, of the Dark Mark tattoos is the fact they cannot be removed or hidden.

[pasalita]

FYI: I've merged FoolontheHill's thread to jodiekins' thread about the Death Eaters because a lot of discussion about the Dark Mark has happened in here. Alas, I'll also change the thread title.

[Barbara Kennedy]

It was kind of inevitable, you can't have one without the other.....

[smartypants]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=258139#post258139))
Perhaps part of the magic, or curse, if you want, of the Dark Mark tattoos is the fact they cannot be removed or hidden.


Removed, yes, but that they can't be hidden? Why would you put a mark on your *secret* supporters that makes them instantly recognizable?

Of course they can be hidden, and of course they will be hidden for the most part. This can be done either by the marks only being visible when you want them to be shown, or the marks being invisible always, to everybody except other deathe eaters.

But I repeat: The mark will definitly NOT be visible by everybody at all times, because that would be...well...stupid. And Voldemort isn't stupid. He is evil, but he is not stupid.

[Weatherby]

You're probably correct smartypants.
Voldemort either doesn't mark his spies or he would wish for them the mark to be hidden if necessary.
While he didn't forsee the need for them to deny supporting him he would want some of them to hide in the ministry.
Now Snape may have only been a spy for Dumbledore alone. But what about Rook? Was he marked?
I should be asking about Peter however. We know he was a spy.

[smartypants]

Rook? Who's that?

But yes, Peter would be a good example. It would be hard to hide the mark while spying for a whole year without anybody noticing, ir it was always visible.

[Weatherby]

I may be mixing up the name but Rook was the Mom associate who "tricked" Ludo Bagman into divulging MoM secrets to Voldemort.

[smartypants]

Ah. Well, I don't remember his name, so you are probably right. Another good example in any case.

[Hpmons]

I got the impression (but I dont know) that the mark was invisible anyway. Here is the phrase I was looking for:

"Do you see? Its never been this clear, never since - " (Karkaroff speaking to Snape)

It gives the impression that it is almost invisible. And the Dark Mark on the DEs arms shows the power of Vol. 14 years ago it was very clear; then it became invisible/ hardly visible. When Vol got a body in the 4th book, it was much clearer, and when he was re-born, it was very visible. It goes black only when Vol summons them doesnt it?

I doubt the fact whether it can be hidden or not depends on Vol; it is probably a spell that can be done by the DE themselves; so that they can feel it, but not see it.

BTW - The persons name was Rookwood

[GrangerGal]

If that is true than why didn't Snape hide his? I think Smartypants is right that Voldemort is NOT stupid but than why didn't the mark disappear? Why was it still visible after they were summoned? Also why Snape of Kakaroff did keep theirs visible if they could hide them? I said this earlier and no one agreed or disagreed but what if it it is only visible when Voldemorte wants it to be visible. Maybe he wanted it to be visible throughout GOF so the Death Eaters would know he was back. And it won't go away until he is certain that each one understands and acknowledge that he is back and coming for them and gaining power. Any ideas... I would love more ideas b/c this is baffling

[Hpmons]

Fudge and DD, and most of the other people there already knew that Snape used to be a DE. There would be no point in hiding it; and everybody knew that Karkaroff was a DE.

I do agree with your first part - that it is only visible when Voldemort wants it to be visible; but I dont think it only goes away when they acknowledge he is back.

[GrangerGal]

Good point Hpmons... I didnt think about the fact that they know he is a DE already. So does it ever go away? And if it doesn't how do they hide it?

[FoolOnTheHill]

Also, maybe keeping his darkmark would help Snape with that mysterious mission... Also it could come in handy because he would know whenever Voldy and the DE's were meeting which could be useful info. Yep.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=258575#post258575))
Removed, yes, but that they can't be hidden? Why would you put a mark on your *secret* supporters that makes them instantly recognizable?

Of course they can be hidden, and of course they will be hidden for the most part. This can be done either by the marks only being visible when you want them to be shown, or the marks being invisible always, to everybody except other deathe eaters.

But I repeat: The mark will definitly NOT be visible by everybody at all times, because that would be...well...stupid. And Voldemort isn't stupid. He is evil, but he is not stupid.


I meant "hidden" as in "cannot make it invisible", if anyone looked at their arm, they would see the Dark Mark tattoo.

[pegoheart144]

I had the impression that the Dark Mark faded and was barely visible after Voldemort attacked Harry the first time. It only became visible again during the time he was preparing to come back to power.

I also think people didn'tl know about the Dark Mark outside of the Death Eaters.

[smartypants]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=259677#post259677))
I meant "hidden" as in "cannot make it invisible", if anyone looked at their arm, they would see the Dark Mark tattoo.


"Someone" as in "anyone" or "someone" as in "a specific person"?

Because if you mean "anyone" that's exactly what I thought you ment when I posted my response, and I will still maintain that it is obvious that this is NOT correct, for the previously posted reasons.

[smartypants]

Originally posted by GrangerGal (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=259200#post259200))
If that is true than why didn't Snape hide his? I think Smartypants is right that Voldemort is NOT stupid but than why didn't the mark disappear? Why was it still visible after they were summoned?

Why should it not be visible?

Also why Snape of Kakaroff did keep theirs visible if they could hide them?

How do you know they keep them visible?
They SHOWED them, which is another thing all together. I can show my bum if I want to, but that doesn't mean I never wear pants. :D

I said this earlier and no one agreed or disagreed but what if it it is only visible when Voldemorte wants it to be visible.

That's a possibility too. But I would think he would want one DE to show another DE when they wanted to. The mark is there to call summon the DE's, sure, but wouldn't it also serve as a way of recognizing other DE, so they don't kill each other by mistake? After all, they don't all know who the others are.

[aiko amaya]

But doesn't Voldermort say their names? Probably death eaters were the only ones who ever asked. Or maybe it didn't matter because they only killed the people Voldermort wanted killed.

[smartypants]

Yes, he did now, but Karkaroff says they didn't all know everybodies names, which makes sense.

Voldemort obviously mentiones some names so that we as readers can get to know that yes, Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle are death eaters.

[aiko amaya]

Karkaroff might have just been bluffing, but the spies probably all had nick names and stuff. Like Wormtail, no one could know he was still alive for security reasons. But I think that Voldermort probably orrdered them aqnd everything, told them exactly wo to kill and what not. They might have had a different way to differenciate between them.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=260313#post260313))
"Someone" as in "anyone" or "someone" as in "a specific person"?

Because if you mean "anyone" that's exactly what I thought you ment when I posted my response, and I will still maintain that it is obvious that this is NOT correct, for the previously posted reasons.

Sorry? You've completely lost me now.

As for what I meant, in my clumsy way as well, is that when the Dark Mark is burning on the arm of a Death Eater it cannot be disguised or hidden from view, EXCEPT by covering with a sleeve, obviously! If the arm were exposed openly, anyone who looked at it could see it. I can't make my statement any clearer.

[pegoheart144]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=260992#post260992))
Sorry? You've completely lost me now.

As for what I meant, in my clumsy way as well, is that when the Dark Mark is burning on the arm of a Death Eater it cannot be disguised or hidden from view, EXCEPT by covering with a sleeve, obviously! If the arm were exposed openly, anyone who looked at it could see it. I can't make my statement any clearer.
Except, as I've stated before, not many knew about the Dark Mark or that it burned outside the Death Eaters. Also if they were seasoned Death Eaters they would know enough not to signal that Voldemort was calling them, especially like McNair who worked in the Ministry of Magic.

[smartypants]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=260992#post260992))
Sorry? You've completely lost me now.

As for what I meant, in my clumsy way as well, is that when the Dark Mark is burning on the arm of a Death Eater it cannot be disguised or hidden from view, EXCEPT by covering with a sleeve, obviously! If the arm were exposed openly, anyone who looked at it could see it. I can't make my statement any clearer.


OK, good. That's what I thought you ment from the start. And thats the opinion I responded too. It seems to me that you didn't read or understand that response, so I'll try to clarify it:

If the dark mark would have been visible at all times to all persons you would have been able to easily see if somebody was a Death Eater or not. You would only have to look at that persons arm. A dark mark: Death Eater. No dark mark: Not a Death Eater.
Snape would have known this
Snape would have told Dumbledore and
Dumbledore would have told the ministry and
The trials would have been pointless. You don't need trials, you only need to check somebodies arms.


Conculsion: Death Eaters did NOT have a constantly visible dark mark on their arms. It's simply not possible. So obviously, the dark mark on their arms could be hidden.

[GrangerGal]

I have been thinking. Everyone knows what the dark mark looks like. We know they know what the mark looks like b/c in GOF when Crouch JR sends up the flare everyone panics. Mr. Weasley makes a comment that it was sent up over houses where someone was murdered by Voldemort or a death eater. So if people saw the mark on a DE's arm, they would know he was in Voldemort's crowd. Therefore there would have to be SOME way of disguising it. When it shines has to be at specific times. I think those times might be a combination of two things: 1) The Dark Mark shines when the person who has it wants it to 2) The Dark Mark shines when Voldemort wants his Death Eaters to know his presence or to summon them to him. :devil:

[smartypants]

Bingo!

[EvilMeghan]

Why isn't it common knowledge (yet) that Death Eaters have Dark Marks on their left forearms? I would htink after Voldy's downfall, people would make a big deal out of this. I don' know....

[zoeydsngwrtr]

Didn't the dark marks only show when Voldemort wanted them to or was in power?

[smartypants]

Originally posted by EvilMeghan (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=263446#post263446))
Why isn't it common knowledge (yet) that Death Eaters have Dark Marks on their left forearms?


Maybe it is? And if it isn't, it surely is not common knowledge because it's not important. And why is it not important? Because the Dark Mark is not typically visible unless the DE want's it to be.

[zoeydsngwrtr]

It's not that they want it to be, it's that Voldemort is calling them, remember, they were scared that it was showing.

[pegoheart144]

The Dark Mark was visible on Karkaroff's arm before Voldemort regained his body. He even showed it to Snape. The mark was becoming visible all that year.

I think the wizarding world knew that the Dark Mark was Voldemort's symbol because it was left whenever the Death Eaters attacked. However that doesn't mean they knew that the Death Eaters had that mark branded (that's my term) on their arms.

[Auri DeMeer]

Originally posted by EvilMeghan (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=263446#post263446))
Why isn't it common knowledge (yet) that Death Eaters have Dark Marks on their left forearms? I would htink after Voldy's downfall, people would make a big deal out of this. I don' know....


Maybe it is common knowledge but not for Sirius, who was in prison and never got to know this.

[Filius Flitwick]

I don't think that it was common knowledge, it's not like you see wizard's hanging out in tanktops or anything. Maybe if the Death Eaters had a beach party back when Voldemort was in power and the mark was visible, then I could see it as being more common knowledge. I don't even know if Auror's would know about it, Dumbledore would probably know because of Snape though.

[Auri DeMeer]

You don't have to see something with your own eyes to know about it.
Maybe it was published, together with the details of some trials right after Voldemorts downfall.

I don't think it's common knowledge either, though. When Snape shows his Mark to Fudge he assumes Fudge knows what it is. But then Fudge is the Minister...

[pegoheart144]

That's true. Snape did explain what it was when he showed his Dark Mark to Fudge and how it was used. Fudge showed no reaction that he knew what the Mark was before that.

It would have taken other Death Eaters who turned away from Voldemort like Snape to inform others about the mark. As far as we know Snape has been the only one to do that.

[Barbara Kennedy]

If the Death Eaters could hide their Mark at will, why was Karkaroff in such a sweaty panic that it was becoming clearer that he felt it necessary to interupt Snape's class to tell him about it? Why didn't he just make it disappear?

[Alastor D]

Karkaroff probably was in that sweaty panic because the mark becoming clearer was proof that Voldie was coming back. And he knew Voldie would not forgive him for giving names in the trial. Making the mark dissappear wouldn't save him from Voldie's revenge.

[Weatherby]

Alastor D hit it right on the nail. :)
Karkaroff had a lot to be afraid of with Voldemort coming back. He can't hide under Dumbledore's protection since he most likely hasn't redeemed himself.

[pegoheart144]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=265590#post265590))
If the Death Eaters could hide their Mark at will, why was Karkaroff in such a sweaty panic that it was becoming clearer that he felt it necessary to interupt Snape's class to tell him about it? Why didn't he just make it disappear?
Karkaroff was afraid of retribution from Voldemort. He had gotten out of Azkaban by giving names of fellow Death Eaters. That's what he was worried about.:( :sigh:

[smartypants]

Originally posted by zoeydsngwrtr (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=263625#post263625))
It's not that they want it to be, it's that Voldemort is calling them, remember, they were scared that it was showing.


Where? I just finished book 4 again, and I have never seen a reference to them being scared of it showing.

Again: If it is always visible to anybody, why isn't people simply checked to see if they have it?


Originally posted by zoeydsngwrtr (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=263625#post263625))
Fudge showed no reaction that he knew what the Mark was before that.

Exceuse me? Fudge showed no reaction that he did NOT know what it was. If you show somebody something they don't know what it is, you usually respon with 'what is that' or something. Snape showed him that the mark had become clear as a proof that Voldemort was back. If Fudge hadn't known what the mark was, he would have said so. Obviously this scene shows that Fudge knows very well what the mark is and what it sais. But still, nobody goes looking for wizards with the mark? Why not? Because they know they won't see it!


Once again: Snape knew the mark was there and what it ment. Dumbledore knew it. Fudge must have known. Still, nobody is using it to search for death eaters. That MUST mean that it isn't always visible.

[pegoheart144]

If Fudge knew about the Dark Mark (which I doubt because he doesn't seem too bright), then he screwed-up royally. There was evidence right before him that Voldemort was never completely gone. He just stuck his head in the sand and prefered not to see what was right before him.

[Filius Flitwick]

It's not that hard to understand Fudge. Everything has been going good for so long that he can't face the fact that Voldemort has returned. I don't even know if Fudge would believe that Voldemort is back once the murders start up again. Heck, I don't even know if he would believe it if Voldemort walked into his office.

Anywho, as I said, I don't think he knows what the Dark Mark is and I don't think he wants to know.

[smartypants]

But in book 3, he was very well aware that Voldemort could pop up again. In fact, he thought that was exactly what Sirius was planning to do: Help Voldemort back.

So when Sirius disappeared from the vicinity of Hogwarts, Fudge must have thought that Sirius went to help Voldemort come back. That's what he said he though Sirius would do.

And, then, one year later, Voldemort comes back, and Fudge refuses to believe it? I don't buy it. Fudges refusal to believe Voldemorts return is important, and the end of book 4 foreshadows a split inside the ministry. That's so big and important that I don't beleive that JK hadn't thought of this when she wrote book 3, so this sudden reversal of Fudge is not a mistake by JK.

Anyway, we are veering off topic. For more discussions of Fudge, go read a Fudge thread. :)

If Fudge knows about the dark mark or not is really not important. The point is, that if the dark mark could be used as a way of distinguishing Death Eaters, it would have been used as such. Since it has not been used for this purpose, it means that the Dark Mark "tattoo" can in fact NOT be used to distinguish Death Eaters. Therefore, it can NOT be visible by anyone at all times.

It's quite as simple as that.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=260992#post260992))
Sorry? You've completely lost me now.

As for what I meant, in my clumsy way as well, is that when the Dark Mark is burning on the arm of a Death Eater it cannot be disguised or hidden from view, EXCEPT by covering with a sleeve, obviously! If the arm were exposed openly, anyone who looked at it could see it. I can't make my statement any clearer.



I'm sorry smartypants, but did you totally miss the part where I said "when the mark is burning (as when Voldemort is calling them) on the arm of a Death Eater".......
I know Karkaroff was in fear of Voldemort's return at the time.
Please don't assume that I can't interpret what I read as well as you can.

[smartypants]

Well, it may be visible when he is using it to call on the DE's. Or it's not, it just burns. We don't have any indication of it either way. I don't think it really makes any difference either way.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=258575#post258575))
Removed, yes, but that they can't be hidden? Why would you put a mark on your *secret* supporters that makes them instantly recognizable?

Of course they can be hidden, and of course they will be hidden for the most part. This can be done either by the marks only being visible when you want them to be shown, or the marks being invisible always, to everybody except other deathe eaters.

But I repeat: The mark will definitly NOT be visible by everybody at all times, because that would be...well...stupid. And Voldemort isn't stupid. He is evil, but he is not stupid.


Come on smartypants, you don't get off that easily. You have taken a strongly held stance. Why doesn't it make any diference now? poke: :??:

[aiko amaya]

maybe it is only visible to those who Voldermort wants it to be visible, I don't know if that s very logical...

[smartypants]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=267825#post267825))
Come on smartypants, you don't get off that easily. You have taken a strongly held stance. Why doesn't it make any diference now? poke: :??:


I've taken the strongly held stance that it is not ALWAYS visible to ANYBODY. I've been pretty clear about this, and I continue to claim that this is the case.

If it is visible during the brief period (just ten-twenty seconds) that Voldemort is using it to call the DE's to him, is not important. I can't see how it matters at all, actually.

I'm sorry if I misunderstood you earlier, when I thought you said that it was always visible to everybody, but I hope you will excuse me since I at least tried to make sure I hadn't misunderstood you. :)

[smartypants]

Originally posted by Adamslove (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=267835#post267835))
maybe it is only visible to those who Voldermort wants it to be visible, I don't know if that s very logical...


Well it would be, but I don't see the point in Voldemort wanting the people in Moodys office to see it when Snape showed it. :)

My initial though was also that only supporters could se it, but that doesn't work with how it is in the book. I think it's visible if the bearer wants it to, although it was just faintly visible, when Voldemort was hiding in Albania.

[EvilMeghan]

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=267844#post267844))
If it is visible during the brief period (just ten-twenty seconds) that Voldemort is using it to call the DE's to him, is not important. I can't see how it matters at all, actually.

It can't be visable for only 10-20 seconds, because Karkaroff said it was growing clearer all year, meaning it was visable throughout most of book four.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Good point EvilMeghan.

[aiko amaya]

SOmone said that if the dark mark was visible 24/7 then the trials wouldn't have bveeen neccessairy. Well they would have after Voldermort had lost power becaus4e they would have faded. Karkaroff said it's becomeing clearer, which leads me to beleive that it is only visible When Voldermort has enough power. So then it would have disapeared after Volduie lost power soi they still would have needed the trials!

[pegoheart144]

Originally posted by Adamslove (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=270406#post270406))
SOmone said that if the dark mark was visible 24/7 then the trials wouldn't have bveeen neccessairy. Well they would have after Voldermort had lost power becaus4e they would have faded. Karkaroff said it's becomeing clearer, which leads me to beleive that it is only visible When Voldermort has enough power. So then it would have disapeared after Volduie lost power soi they still would have needed the trials!
Except it seems to me that there were a lot of people (Fudge included) who didn't look very hard for Death Eaters once Voldemort disappeared, so they didn't look for things like the Dark Mark. They were convinced that Voldemort was gone especially when nothing happened for years. With their heads stuck in the sand, they refused to see signs that he was regaining power, especially in Goblet of Fire when there was growing evidence that something was afoot.:( :??: :banghead:

[aiko amaya]

Originally posted by pegoheart144 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=270485#post270485))
Except it seems to me that there were a lot of people (Fudge included) who didn't look very hard for Death Eaters once Voldemort disappeared, so they didn't look for things like the Dark Mark. They were convinced that Voldemort was gone especially when nothing happened for years. With their heads stuck in the sand, they refused to see signs that he was regaining power, especially in Goblet of Fire when there was growing evidence that something was afoot.:( :??: :banghead:

No after Voldermort first disapear I woukld think they would look even harder for the death eaters so that they wouldn't return to Voldermort to regain his power, plus they are murderers, commited alot of crimes. And really With the evidence that there was something afoot, with voldie regaining power, You can't expect people to always see these type of things, we have to keep in mind we're seeing things from an outsiders view and we have more time to think about these things as the people in the stories did. After harry came back from facing Voldie yes then fudge struck his head in the sand, but before there was no rea way to know that Voldie was on the rise again, except for the death eaters arms glowing. And I don't think the ministry was aware of that.

[Barbara Kennedy]

I don't really think their arms "glowed". when their marks were "burning" it indicated that the Death Eaters could feel the mark on their arms as well as see them.

[aiko amaya]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=270660#post270660))
I don't really think their arms "glowed". when their marks were "burning" it indicated that the Death Eaters could feel the mark on their arms as well as see them.

Having it be a painful mark, well I guess that is quite Voldermortish, Wormtail did scream whenVoldermort touched it...

[Barbara Kennedy]

It is part of what makes it something the Death Eaters can't ignore.

[jordmundt6]

It glimmered then burned back, but I don't think their arms glowed.

[smartypants]

Originally posted by EvilMeghan (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=269898#post269898))
It can't be visable for only 10-20 seconds, because Karkaroff said it was growing clearer all year, meaning it was visable throughout most of book four.


Theres a difference between 'visible' and 'impossible to hide' which I'm trying to convey here but obviously I'm totally failing to do so.

Once again:

The mark can not be always visible to everyone, because of reasons repeated over and over and over again in this thread.

The mark CAN be visible to everyone during the brief period when it burns to call the DE to Voldemort.

It is also obviously visible when the DE wants to show it to others.

But (still) it can NOT be visible to everybody all the time.

[GrangerGal]

I feel like we are going in circles with this one and will never get forward... Personally I think it shows when a death eater wants to show it or when Voldemort wants it to show and the DE to feel it. Also for the idea that people in the wizarding world would know about the dark mark and use it to find Death Eaters can be explained by the Impirius curse since people can say Voldemort put it there when they were undercontrol...

[Isaiah]

In GoF, someone (I think Snape, but I'm not certain) says that Voldemort kept the identity of all the Death Eaters a secret even from each other, so that only he would know the true identity of them all. So why do we all assume that when he called for them to come after his rebirth, and he called role, that they were really all there? Maybe he has a kind of "inner circle" of DE's that he had already talked to who weren't present at that circle after his rebirth. This thought really just accomodates the fact that I think Fudge is evil because of the way he acted at the end of GoF. Let me know what you think of this theory, and who else could be part of Voldie's inner circle.

[Magpie]

Just to clear it up, it was Karkaroff in the Pensieve.

Cheers! :coolblue:

[Shoujo Kitsune]

I am right there with you on the Fudge thing, but if you are thinking of the possible DE's in the ministry, ther is already a thread on that, and Fudge...but I don't know if there is one on this, so it might just stay open...but just for the record..Fudge is a DE...:D

[rusk]

Well I see it like this, either:

1) Karkaroff was lying when he said the Death Eaters didn't know who all the other Death Eaters were as an excuse for why he couldn't produce more names at the trial.

or

2) He wasn't lying. In this case I have to wonder about when Voldemort "called roll" in the graveyard. Perhaps that instance when he had returned and called the names of all the Death Eaters around him was the very first time he used their names like that. Maybe he decided to make every Death Eater aware of every other Death Eater so that they would have to hold each other accountable as Death Eaters even when they were acting as normal members of the magical community. If he was going to keep their identities secret from each other he would not call roll like that.

I think it's more likely that Karkaroff was just lying to explain why he wouldn't give more names than he did.

[dorcasderr]

Did Voldemort mention ALL their names? I thought not, I'll have to reread that...It is possible that some of the Death Eaters knew each other...the ones Voldemort mentioned, but that others are indeed in deep cover. I think that if Fudge is NOT a Death Eater he is still Voldemort's man...in deep cover, perhaps a spy, definitely a supporter.

[pasalita]

FYI: I've merged Isaiah's newest thread about Death Eaters into this already existing one.

And, with regards to the topic brought up about Fudge being evil, please visit the following thread to remark on that subject: Cornelius Fudge: Good or bad? (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3420)

Thanks!

[Severely Snapped]

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=265837#post265837))
Exceuse me? Fudge showed no reaction that he did NOT know what it was. If you show somebody something they don't know what it is, you usually respon with 'what is that' or something. Snape showed him that the mark had become clear as a proof that Voldemort was back. If Fudge hadn't known what the mark was, he would have said so.

Most everyone in the wizarding world knows what the Dark Mark is--remember Arthur Weasley describing what it was like to come home and see that skull-and-serpent floating over your house? But that doesn't mean anyone but the Death Eaters knew that the Mark was also branded on the arms of Voldemort's followers. So it is very possible Fudge didn't ask Snape, "What the hell is that?" when Snape showed him the Mark because he knew what it was. He was just surprised to see Snape, um...wearing it, as it were.

As to the Mark's function, I thought Snape made that pretty clear:

"Every Death Eater had the sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of distinguishing one another, and his means of summoning us to him." [GoF, p. 710]

So I'm going with the theory that the Mark is charmed somehow to be invisible to non-Death Eaters, unless the DE in question wants to show it to someone.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Well-spotted, Severely Snapped! Just the quote we needed.
Yes, the wizarding world knows all too well what the Dark Mark is, but I believe you are correct in thinking that very few know that the DEs are branded [tattooed] with it.

[ArabellaBlack]

I think the Dark Mark was very much under Voldemort's complete control. It's quite possible this nasty little mark on one's left forearm is a very complicated spell Voldemort thought up himself, so he would know everything about it. He probably wouldn't make the mistake of making it visible all the time, but perhaps he never thought of a Death Eater with the Mark showing it to someone who wasn't a DE.
I always thought it made itself known more by pain than by visibilty, because a painless mark on your arm could possibly go unnoticed for quite a while. The visibility part was only to verify DE status, though I'm not quite sure how that would work, because if you went up to a person and thought him a DE and showed him your Mark, even if it wasn't common knowledge, then the person you showed it to would definately freak out if they weren't a DE. I don't know, though. Maybe if it turned out he wasn't a DE, the DE killed him. It's obvious that no DE would balk at this approach. Or perhaps the Mark glowed whenever another DE was near, which makes more sense, since the DE still really has no control over his Mark
I have several theories creeping around in my mind, one being that the Mark is visible only to Voldemort-related people, being mainly DEs but including Harry. This doesn't hold much water, though. The theory I'm going for is that, the first time Voldemort was in power, he only allowed it to be visible when he called someone. He could call anyone he wished specifically, as I'm sure there were sometimes when he just wanted to speak to one or two people. It would have been needless to summon everybody, inconvenient, and way too conspicous. The main point being he has complete control over the Mark, even when he doesn't have a body.
So why didn't he summon DEs when he was thwarted by Harry? Again, I'm not quite sure, but it may have been a mix between naivity, (it was only his first time trying to take over the world and all) in thinking that the DEs would have acted out of loyalty and tried to go find him, and a blunder on his making of the Mark. You were supposed to apparate to him the moment you felt the Mark, but as Voldemort appeared to be in some sort of weird limbo, there was really no way to tell where he was, or to apparate by saying "to Voldemort", because he only partially existed. So he tried the Mark, but nobody could apparate to him, and he gave that up. All this time, the Mark is only visible when it burns on a person's forearm for them to come to Voldemort, because if it was visible all the time, it would soon become common knowledge that this was the sign of a DE. Then all of his followers could have been easily found out.
After he was brought down, people probably figured out about the Dark Mark on a person's forearm, but it didn't help anybody much, because it wasn't to be seen unless Voldemort called them and most people figured him dead. No doubt Snape could have revealed this information, and told everybody all he knew about the Mark. Plus, it was a pretty instantaneous thing, so if Voldemort ever did try to summon them after he lost his body, it would only be visible for about a minute, as I'm sure that's long enough for anyone to get the picture. Checking somebody's forearm would not work unless you were extremely lucky.
When Voldemort didn't have a body, I'm sure he stopped trying to summon the DEs real quick, because that would have been a dead give away that they were DEs and they would have been hauled away, thereby decreasing the chances of anyone ever finding and helping Voldemort. This went on for quite a while, Voldemort still thinking along these lines but losing hope, when Quirrell came along.
I like the theory that Snape knew Quirrell was hiding Voldemort because of the Mark, but I'm not really ready to debate either side of that. If it did, then that would mean Voldemort had wanted it to. As Hermione has pointed out many times before, though, you can't apparate into Hogwarts. Either Voldemort would have soon realized that and stopped trying, only long enough for Snape to know he was still alive (though he probably should have known that anyway), or the much more likely theory that Snape had just been on to Quirrell.
After Voldemort was defeated again, he simply lost all hope of ever coming back, he's implied as much in GoF. Then came Wormtail. With Wormtail's help, he produced a rudimentary body and a intricate plan to make his first step back to power. Now, he was wiser, and more malicious than ever toward those who had not tried to help him. I believe, then, that the Mark appearing on the DEs arms, not quick and black, but a slow burning pain that made the spot turn red, was now meant to taunt them. A sort of "I'm baa-aaaack". Maybe to clue them in on his return and a sort of promise that he had a plan, but this sounds almost comforting, and I can't imagine Voldemort wanted to comfort anyone. He wasn't afraid of revealing his DEs anymore, because, truth be told, he simply did not need them anymore. He was already found, and could get new DEs. Even so, I don't think he expected any of them to be found out, because nobody was looking for DEs 13 years after the fact. Certainly no one expected the Dark Mark on anyone again, even if they knew about it. Nobody would want to believe it.
There's evidence that says Sirius may not know about the Mark, but I think he does. When he heard Karkaroff showed Snape something on his arm, that seemed to hit a cord. He knew Karkaroff was a DE, but not Snape, and didn't believe Snape was ever a DE becuse of Dumbeldore's hiring him, so he was just confused that Karkaroff would show Snape his Mark, although Sirius did seem a little more suspiscious of Snape.
Snape showed the Mark to Fudge, but I doubt that he could control whether it was visible or not. Voldemort knew some former DEs had not shown up, and aside from that, perhaps just left it there as a friendly reminder for all his DEs, since nobody's going around looking for them yet.
One last thing: Voldemort did touch Wormtail's Mark seemingly to call them, but it wouldn't make much sense to have to have a DE around in order to call more DEs. I just think it was a bit of pageantry. Voldemort's a literary villain, and therefore enjoys putting on a good show.

[DocHollidaywe]

hmmm

[aiko amaya]

Originally posted by dorcasderr (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=272478#post272478))
Did Voldemort mention ALL their names? I thought not, I'll have to reread that...It is possible that some of the Death Eaters knew each other...the ones Voldemort mentioned, but that others are indeed in deep cover. I think that if Fudge is NOT a Death Eater he is still Voldemort's man...in deep cover, perhaps a spy, definitely a supporter.

I think that they only mentioned the names of those who have been mentioned before in the books. I am pretty sure there isn't a name that was mentioned that wasn't mentionedprior in the series same thing with the old crowd, Fgg in the first book Mundugus fletcher in the second. SO I think that there are probably alot more death eaters than were mentioned.

[EvilMeghan]

Good job and :welcome: , ArabellaBlack!!

[Magpie]

Those death eaters were possibly Voldemort's "inner circle." I mean, think about it, this guy almost took over the wizarding world, and he only had that little of followers? Kind of pathetic on the good side's part. No, I think he has a lot more followers than were shown.

[smartypants]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=284182#post284182))
Well-spotted, Severely Snapped! Just the quote we needed.
Yes, the wizarding world knows all too well what the Dark Mark is, but I believe you are correct in thinking that very few know that the DEs are branded [tattooed] with it.


I'm sure you are right. And few know about it, because it isn't very important, and it's not very important, because most of the time you can't see it anyway, so knowing that DE's had a dark mark on their arms is really not useful knowledge.


Originally posted by ArabellaBlack (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=284441#post284441))
So why didn't he summon DEs when he was thwarted by Harry? Again, I'm not quite sure, but it may have been a mix between naivity, (it was only his first time trying to take over the world and all) in thinking that the DEs would have acted out of loyalty and tried to go find him, and a blunder on his making of the Mark. You were supposed to apparate to him the moment you felt the Mark, but as Voldemort appeared to be in some sort of weird limbo, there was really no way to tell where he was, or to apparate by saying "to Voldemort", because he only partially existed. So he tried the Mark, but nobody could apparate to him, and he gave that up.


Well, he seem to be able to call them to himself by touching the mark. He probably can do it some other way too, but then he would to an incantation, and use a wand, and since he had no body, he could do neither...

[EvilMeghan]

Don't you think Harry's scar acts like the Dark Mark in a way? It becomes extremely painful when Voldy touches the Dark Mark. Sort of like an idicator that he's about to do something.

[smartypants]

Interesting thought!

[Sinistra]

That's an intriguing thought, EvilMeghan! So can Harry use it to apparate to wherever Voldemort is? Once he learns to apparate, that is. It was given to him by Voldemort, albeit accidentally. But the scar has different properties for Harry as he can "tune in" on Voldemort in his dreams. Can the Death Eaters use their Dark Marks to locate Voldemort? I think not. Is it the difference in place--forhead vs. arm or how it was gained, with Harry through a very powerful spell which backfired. Harry is certainly tied to Voldemort, but in different ways.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Originally posted by Sinistra (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=286185#post286185))
That's an intriguing thought, EvilMeghan! So can Harry use it to apparate to wherever Voldemort is? Once he learns to apparate, that is. It was given to him by Voldemort, albeit accidentally. But the scar has different properties for Harry as he can "tune in" on Voldemort in his dreams. Can the Death Eaters use their Dark Marks to locate Voldemort? I think not. Is it the difference in place--forhead vs. arm or how it was gained, with Harry through a very powerful spell which backfired. Harry is certainly tied to Voldemort, but in different ways.


Well, if you think about it, the mark could help them find Voldemort. They are supposed to apparate directly to him when he summons them, aren't they? How could they do that without a "homing beacon" of some kind?

[zoeydsngwrtr]

***Thought*** I do not think that fudge is a death eater per say, but I do believe that he is a bit evil. However; being the ministry of magic, I am sure that he is one of the few people that knows what the dark mark is.
:clappy: Arabella black, good thoughts, good points, made me think.
As for the DE roll call, many of them already knew who each other were, remember Karakoff (is that his name) showing it to snape or whomever it was showing it to whomever (sorry it has been a bit since I read that book)

[Barbara Kennedy]

Ineptitude is not evil, but willful refusal to do what you KNOW is right and necessary, that crosses the line.

[Weatherby]

I agree with Barbara Kennedy.
Fudge may not see his actions as evil but he's going to risk lives refusing to alert the public about Voldemort's return. He runs the MoM and it's duty to check out everything regardless if he wishes it wasn't true.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Originally posted by Magpie (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=285147#post285147))
Those death eaters were possibly Voldemort's "inner circle." I mean, think about it, this guy almost took over the wizarding world, and he only had that little of followers? Kind of pathetic on the good side's part. No, I think he has a lot more followers than were shown.


I believe you are right Magpie, the Death Eaters are only a select few of Voldemort's devoted followers, an Inner Circle of his trusted leaders, advisors and close assistants. They are the only ones bearing the Dark Mark. Others may follow Voldemort but not be Death Eaters.
The group we saw may not be the only circle of Death Eaters that he commands either.

[fruitia pickleweed]

Originally posted by Beatrice Bottbean (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=226445#post226445))

...why the name Death Eaters? Is it simply b/c they were assisting Voldemort on his quest for immortality, or is there more to it than that?



I have been wondering about this too...did they gain personal power by absorbing some form of energy released by a death? Perhaps related to that person's unspent potential years of longevity? Could it be that a Death Eater would be able to add those years to his own, and would gain most from the death of a young child -- like the infant Harry?

Yeeks, thinking about this is horrible, even though it's just a story.

[Ecthelion]

Originally posted by Beatrice Bottbean
...why the name Death Eaters? Is it simply b/c they were assisting Voldemort on his quest for immortality, or is there more to it than that?

Perhaps they were named that for purely a pyschological effect it has on the general populace. After all if you knew or heard something about dark wizards named "death eaters" in your vicinity, I bet you'd get scared or at the very least flustered! Also, with the point that you really don't know who or what a death eater is (considering it could be your neighbor), having that little unknown peice of information could make "death eaters" truly frightening.

Could it be that a Death Eater would be able to add those years to his own, and would gain most from the death of a young child -- like the infant Harry?

I certainly hope not! I'd bet that we'd have heard about it already since many death eaters (like snape) probably spilled bits and pieces of information about what it was like under the prospect of azkaban and something like gaining life from another person's death would definitely come up. Unless it was there great secret...

[Barbara Kennedy]

The name was chosen for its "fear factor" I'm sure.

[smartypants]

"But, but, but, it's really dangerous! You could DIE!"
"Ha! I eat death for breakfast!"

Voila!

[Barbara Kennedy]

Originally posted by Severely Snapped (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=272904#post272904))
Most everyone in the wizarding world knows what the Dark Mark is--remember Arthur Weasley describing what it was like to come home and see that skull-and-serpent floating over your house? But that doesn't mean anyone but the Death Eaters knew that the Mark was also branded on the arms of Voldemort's followers. So it is very possible Fudge didn't ask Snape, "What the hell is that?" when Snape showed him the Mark because he knew what it was. He was just surprised to see Snape, um...wearing it, as it were.

As to the Mark's function, I thought Snape made that pretty clear:

"Every Death Eater had the sign burned into him by the Dark Lord. It was a means of distinguishing one another, and his means of summoning us to him." [GoF, p. 710]

So I'm going with the theory that the Mark is charmed somehow to be invisible to non-Death Eaters, unless the DE in question wants to show it to someone.


Doesn't the quote imply that it acts as a "homing beacon" to draw the Death eaters to the place where Voldemort is, as well?

[Cat]

Originally posted by fruitia pickleweed (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=342135#post342135))
I have been wondering about this too...did they gain personal power by absorbing some form of energy released by a death? Perhaps related to that person's unspent potential years of longevity? Could it be that a Death Eater would be able to add those years to his own, and would gain most from the death of a young child -- like the infant Harry?

Yeeks, thinking about this is horrible, even though it's just a story.


There are Sin Eaters, who take on the sins of others so that that person can go happily on to... wherever. The Sin Eater would then be burdoned with sin, but I presume somebody 'eats' all that sin before the Sin Eater dies as well.

Maybe the Death Eaters have took some of the mortality away from Voldemort... and added it on to themselves. They might not have to know about it. Voldemort is the kind of cold person to take what somebody else has to use for himself. He wants to be immortal and, hey, there are all these lives full of energy around him, serving him.

Kind of makes him sound like a Dementor, though.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Originally posted by Cat (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=344882#post344882))
There are Sin Eaters, who take on the sins of others so that that person can go happily on to... wherever. The Sin Eater would then be burdoned with sin, but I presume somebody 'eats' all that sin before the Sin Eater dies as well.

Maybe the Death Eaters have took some of the mortality away from Voldemort... and added it on to themselves. They might not have to know about it. Voldemort is the kind of cold person to take what somebody else has to use for himself. He wants to be immortal and, hey, there are all these lives full of energy around him, serving him.

Kind of makes him sound like a Dementor, though.


Eeewww, <shudder>
That is just freaky enough to work.
It sounds very much like what I would imagine Voldemort trying, whether it really extended his life for long or not.
It would be an interesting part of an "initiation ceremony" to become a Death Eater. As a way to prove your loyalty, but instead of taking away mortality, it would take away life force from the new member and add it to Lord Voldemort. Much like his re-birth ceremony. Or perhaps work it into the Dark Mark as a way to drain life energy from his minions as needed.
[I'm scaring myself.....!]:scared:

[Alastor D]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=344872#post344872))
Doesn't the quote imply that it acts as a "homing beacon" to draw the Death eaters to the place where Voldemort is, as well?


Yes. "He pressed his long, white forefinger to the brand on Wormtail's arm.................How many will be brave enough to return when they feel it?" And then, after a while DEs started to apparate around the graveyard.

[GaryGag]

Sorry if this is covered elsewhere; I've searched 8 pages of threads without seeing anything like it (think there might be a better way to organize?...) anyway,

At the end of GoF, the DE were apparating at Riddle's graveyard. Specifically mentioned were

Avery
Pettigrew (wormtail)
Lucius Malfoy
Mr Lestrange (in Azkhaban)
Mrs Lestrange (in Azkhaban)
Macnair (the executioner)
Crabbe
Goyle
Nott

and then 6 missing; 3 dead, one coward, one has left forever, and one faithful at Hogwarts.

So my questions are:
1. who is Avery, Lestranges, and Nott?
2. Who are the 3 deceased?
3. Is the coward Karkaroff
4. Is the one who left forever Snape? Or is that a ruse?
5. Is the faithful one Barty Jr.? Or is that a ruse?
6. Who is Nagini? What is his play?

I know you guys/gals have answers and/or theories. Let's hear them
Gary

[symplet]

Nagini is Voldemort's snake.

(Tip: use the search engine at the bottom of the page when searching for something particular)

[aragog]

There's been some discussion on this before... more specifically, at this thread: "Death Eaters and the Dark Mark (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4381&highlight=Death+Eaters)"

Like Symplet said, the Search feature works wonders! ;)

[Black's Flight]

1. No idea who Avery is. But the Lestrangs are the one who tourchered Nevil's parents.
2. Hmmm. Can't think of any right now.
3. I think the coward is Karkaroff. You know how worried he was when the dark mark was seen and how he ended up running away.
4. I think Snape is the one who left forever. No specific reason for this.
5. I don't know. Every one says how faithful he is, but wasn't he yelling out that he had nothing to do with the death eaters in The courtroom scene in Gof? That doesn't seem like a faithful servant to me.
6. Nagini is a snake. I think she's a basilisk, seeing as the one in the chamber of secrets is dead.

[GlassRoses314]

1. No clue about Avery and Nott, but I think the Lestranges were the ones in the Pensieve. There were four in there: Barty Jr., A man and woman (the Lestranges?) and one other man. Could that be Avery or Nott?
2. I don't know. I remember someone saying something about Deatheaters being killed by Aurors. Maybe it's them?
3. Probably. But my question is... if Karkaroff ran away..who drove the Durmstrang students home? Was it Krum?
4. It could very well be Snape, but somehow I think Voldemort still trusts Snape. Let's hope so anyway.
5. I don't think the faithful one is Barty Jr. because, like someone said, he was claiming that he had nothing to do with the DE's in the Pensieve. Sure, Voldemort prizes him dearly now, for helping to bring him back to power. But I don't think Voldemort's really one for affection.
6. Nagini is a she.. and she is Voldemort's snake. I'm thinking she might be an Animagus or something. One thing's for sure though. She will play a very important part in future books. I don't know why I think that, I just do.

[Kenshin]

The ship probably drove itself.

Voldemort is not stupid enough to trust Snape again. He may be evil, but he is very smart.

Voldemort probably considers Barty, Jr. his most faithful even with the trial. I wouldn't be surprised if Voldie doesn't even know what happened at the trial.

I highly doubt that Nagini is an animagus. If she was, why would she be in animagus form when they were safe at the Riddle House?

[GaryGag]

Victor Krum mentions that Karkaroff didn't drive the ship; that he made the students "do all the work".

[Severely Snapped]

Originally posted by GaryGag (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=348193#post348193))

So my questions are:
1. who is Avery, Lestranges, and Nott?
2. Who are the 3 deceased?
3. Is the coward Karkaroff
4. Is the one who left forever Snape? Or is that a ruse?
5. Is the faithful one Barty Jr.? Or is that a ruse?
6. Who is Nagini? What is his play?

I know you guys/gals have answers and/or theories. Let's hear them
Gary


Avery and the Lestranges are named (by Sirius, so take it for what it's worth) as old school friends of Snape's. Avery got off Death Eater accusations by saying he'd been under the Imperius Curse. The Lestranges, as someone else mentioned, appear to have helped Barty Jr. and another, unidentified man torture the Longbottoms. They are in Azkaban.

I believe two of the deceased are Rosier and Wilkes (also school chums of Snape's, according to Sirius)...Moody killed one of them, though I don't remember which one.

Coward-to-pay is Karkaroff; traitor-to-be-killed is Snape; faithful servant is Crouch Jr. I don't believe any of these are ruses; JK simply had to be cryptic at that point in the book so as not to ruin the surprise ending. (And why does the fact that Barty Jr. was pleading innocent at his trial make him unfaithful? Maybe he just wanted to remain free so he could continue his work for the Dark Lord. Can't do much rotting in a jail cell.)

And, yes, Nagani is a snake, and a she. Her "milk" (venom) kept Voldemort alive until he got a body.

[Prof.Aze]

1. who is Avery, Lestranges, and Nott?
- They probably were in Hogwarts when Snape was. Old friends of his. Lestrange was the one who tortured Neville's parents. I think i'm right. :o
2. Who are the 3 deceased?
- 3 deceased? I don't have an idea.
3. Is the coward Karkaroff
- Yup he should be the one. Remember in Gof he flee because he felt his mark burning. He was scared.
4. Is the one who left forever Snape? Or is that a ruse?
- Yup it has to be Snape. Well i think he is. Because he was the first one that entered my mind.
5. Is the faithful one Barty Jr.? Or is that a ruse?
- Yup he is because he was the one that helped everything from start to finish until Harry was transported.
6. Who is Nagini? What is his play?
- Nagini was the snake. It was Nagini's milk that fed Voldie. I think.

[Bouncing_Ferret]

1. who is Avery, Lestranges, and Nott?

I think that the Lestranges are the man and the woman from the courtroom scene in the pensieve. I also think perhaps they are innocent, that Mrs. Lestrange was put under an Imperius Curse by Crouch Jnr. during the trial to make him look more innocent? Something like that! As for Avery and Nott, I'm still not sure.

2. Who are the 3 deceased?
Not sure... I think I need to do some re-reading...

3. Is the coward Karkaroff
Yes, I think that Karkaroff is the coward...

4. Is the one who left forever Snape? Or is that a ruse?
Well, I can't think of anyone else... Snape isn't cowardly, so I doubt he could have been the 'coward'. Dumbledore trusts him, so I don't think he's the faithful servant either...

5. Is the faithful one Barty Jr.? Or is that a ruse?
Since Barty Jnr. was under a veritaserum potion when he recounted his part in Voldemort's plan, I doubt he could be anything but the faithful one.

6. Who is Nagini? What is his play?
I think Nagini is just a very useful pet.

[Kenshin]

Barty, Jr. could not have had anyone in the Imperius Curse while in trial. He was tied up and he didn't have his wand.

[rotsiepots]

I'm going to merge this thread with the topic aragog mentioned (Death Eaters and the Dark Mark (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4381)).

As it's already been mentioned, we have a search (http://www.cosforums.com/a/search.php) function available for you to check if a topic has been discussed previously. :)

:welcome: to the boards, GaryGag!

[smartypants]

Originally posted by Black's Flight (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=348229#post348229))
1. No idea who Avery is. But the Lestrangs are the one who tourchered Nevil's parents.


Well, actually, we don't know this, it's just an assumption based on that the lEstranges are in Azkaban, and that a man and a women was imprisoned there for torturing Nevills parents.

So it's reasonable guess, but still only a guess.

[GaryGag]

Very good work everybody, thanks. And thank you for the warm Welcome Rotsiepots. That Avery fellow sure is a mystery.
Gary

[aslkid]

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever... he will be killed, of course." - Voldemort
Who is he talking about? :??:

[Schlubalybub]

3 dead- not sure
1 too cowardly- Karkaroff
1 left forever- Snape (or poss that these 2 are other way, yet unlikely!)

this will prob be locked soon!

i think there has been a similar thread!

[Cobra245063]

In you're post you said only five Death Eaters. You're missing one. Voldemort goes on to say that the other is his most faithful servent that is at Hogwarts or something to that effect. That is Barty Crouch Jr. (posing as "Mad-Eye" Moddy"). Karkaroff is the one to cowardly because Crouch Jr. says to Harry "Karkaroff fled when he felt the mark burn on his arm tonight" or something to that affect (again I don't have my book in front of me)

[Moonstone]

Sirius names Rosier and Wilkes as two Death Eaters who were killed by Aurors.

[Mike21]

Igor has is to cowardly to return
Snape ,he beleives has left him forever

[Nickel]

This thread has some great theories.

http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?threadid=4381&highlight=deatheaters

and a big :welcome: to aslkid

[ImpShial]

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters . . . three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return ... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever ... he will be killed, of course . . . and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service."

3 dead:

1. Rosier
2. Wilkes
3. Quirrell? (don't know about this one.)

Coward: Karkaroff

Left forever: Snape

Faithful Servant: Barty Crouch II

I couldn't find anything regarding the third Death Eater who has died, but I know that Quirrell was on Voldy's side (in his service) and he's dead.

[chow mein]

I'm sorry but I'm not really up to date on what theories have come up and I haven't been reading too much on Snape - but I've heard theories about Snape's next mission being a spy? So, if Voldemort knows that Snape's left him - that would throw the "Snape being a spy" theory out, right?

[Cobra245063]

Yeah that would throw Snape being a spy out. There are some other good threads about Snape's mission that you should check out. Quirrell can't be the third missing death eater because he met Voldemort for the first time after Harry had defeated him. When Voldemort is giving his speach to the Death Eaters he said that he met Quirrell in the forest of Albania (I think it was Albania) or something like that.

[Inkling]

Rosier and Wilkes are almost definitely two of the "dead" threee, but it can't be Quirrel because Voldemort said he corrupted him when they chanced upon each other prior to the events in book one, but after Voldemort's first fall.

As for the coward, it's definitely Karkaroff. He is referred to as cowardly by about half the characters (okay, exaggeration but you get my point) in the fourth book. He betrayed not only his master but quite a few of his "colleagues" rather than go to Azkaban.

The one who has left forever is probably Snape, since after all he did sort of pull a Benedict Arnold on the Death-Eaters the last time. (Actually, I have a theory about that as well, since in book III Fudge said that Dumbledore tipped off the Potters through information from a spy. I think it was Snape trying, unsuccessfully in the long run, to repay his debt...but that's another story.)

The sixth was, of course, Crouch jr.

I do find it interesting, though, that Karakaroff (assuming it's him) will PAY for his transgressions, whereas Snape's (assuming it's him) more ultimate fate is very specifically defined. Is this a hint that Karkaroff has a chance at coming back? Will he? This may have been Rowling's way of not closing the door on that possibility.

Oh yeah, one more thing, Snape cannot return as a spy. Harry should have mentioned that lovely little fact, since that is the hinted task for Snape at the end of book four.

[Strobe]

This is almost like topic jumping, but it might work: who here would curse JK Rowling if Snape was actually killed? Goodness, I know I'd be very upset, even though he's absolutely horrible to Harry, Ron, and Hermione.

Can't live with Snape, can't live without him.

-Strobe *

[Fuchsia]

There is a topic asking about this passage but your question varies a bit.
Death Eaters and the Dark Mark (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4381) is the topic if anyone is interested.
Also, it comes up a lot in Snape threads so that's probably what people are thinking of.

[rotsiepots]

Thanks, Nickel and Fuchsia. :)

I'm going to merge this thread with the existing topic linked in both Nickel's and Fuchsia's posts. If you're ever unsure whether a topic has been discussed previously, please use the search (http://www.cosforums.com/a/search.php) function located at the top left-hand corner of your screen.

Thanks -- I'll merge these now. :)

[Angora]

Hmmm... I've read a few things that have made me think that the dark mark might be visible all the time (while Voldemort's alive) and grow clearer as he grows stronger. Why that could be possible is that a) people didn't know during the first war that there was a dark mark on the DEs, so nobody was looking for one (and this could be supported by Sirius not knowing about it, since his info was cut off once he was in jail), b) once the trials started Voldemort was barely hanging onto life at all, so although the mark was there, it was probably so faint that it may as well have been invisible because nobody could see it - and even if they knew about it, they wouldn't devise a complicated way of looking for it, because they thought Voldemort was dead (and hence that the mark was gone). If it's visible now it wouldn't necessarily be bad planning on big V's part, because a second war wasn't something he'd thought of.

I've also come around to thinking that Snape was in the graveyard, and so he wasn't one of the three people in the cryptic story. I think Crouch was the loyal one, Karkaroff is the one with his head on the chopping block, and Bagman is the one that was too afraid to return. Yes, I know Bagman wasn't convicted. I wish I'd thought of that myself, but I had to read a few essays before I came around to thinking that Bagman was a DE after all. And now I think he was.

[seeker]

I really doubt that the Dark Mark is visible all the time. Were this the case, after even one death eater defected to the good side and told the Ministry about the mark, any suspected Death Eater would be revealed simply by a check of the arm. Think about it - since Snape shows Fudge his dark mark, what would stop Arthur Weasley or Harry from simply pulling up Lucius Malfoy's sleeve when they met him with Fudge in the ministry? Once it had been revealed, Fudge couldn't ignore it(well, maybe he would have, but you see my point). It seems to me that the Mark is visible at the point at which Voldemort summons the DEs, and takes a few hours to fade.

[Angora]

Those are good points, but (for the sake of argument) Voldemort wasn't planning on losing the first war. And aparantly, at that time, he had enough followers that they were picking off the OotP one at a time, and aside from that there were a lot of wizards who thought he had the right idea and stayed out of it until it was too late. If what happened with Harry hadn't happened, he probably would have won. He had no way of knowing that he would need to keep the mark a secret for more than a couple of years. One thing we know about Voldemort is that he gets overconfident if he thinks he's winning (duelling with Harry in the graveyard rather than just killing him).

I also think Voldemort would assume a relatively low chance that anyone would jump ship on him.

I'm not saying it very well, but I think that although the current war is very cloak and dagger (at least at the moment) I think in the origional plan, it wouldn't have been necessary to keep anyone's identity a secret for an extended period of time. Helpful, maybe, but not necessary.

Now, as far as the mark only showing up when they're summoned... it showed up well before that (it was growing clearer and clearer over a long period of time, as we're told by Snape and Karkaroff). Personally, I think it would be a weird idea if only DEs could see the dark mark. That just wasn't my impression of how it worked.

[miri]

If Snape had been in the graveyard, why jump when Harry started naming names? He would have expected it.

It would have also made the "I believe the boy. Look - my mark's back!" a rather strange reaction. "I believe the boy - I saw it all with my own eyes." would have been more likely, surely?

[Rose Hunter]

I found this in a book.

It's not exactly like the dark mark, but it's pretty close to it.

[Angora]

It's not exactly like the dark mark, but it's pretty close to it.

That's really cool. And... um... maybe I'm slow but I can't figure out exactly what Mors Te Mordeo means. Someone help me?

It would have also made the "I believe the boy. Look - my mark's back!" a rather strange reaction. "I believe the boy - I saw it all with my own eyes." would have been more likely, surely?

Theoretically, he might not have wanted Fudge to know that he was there, for various reasons. Depending on his motive for being there, there could be strategic reasons why it would be better not to tell Fudge. But, you know, it's all just in theory. :)

[Barbara Kennedy]

Wow, now does that remind you of the spell to conjure the Dark Mark in the sky - Morsmordre?

That's a great find Rose Hunter. What book was it in?

[Rose Hunter]

It's a really obscure book I found by accident in the library.

I wasn't even looking for a book like it. I was just looking for info on vampires.

Anyway. It can be found in Crone's Book of Charms and Spells, by Valerie Worth.

:)

I nearly flipped when I saw it.

[SnorkackCatcher]

If Snape had been in the graveyard, why jump when Harry started naming names? He would have expected it.

It would have also made the "I believe the boy. Look - my mark's back!" a rather strange reaction. "I believe the boy - I saw it all with my own eyes." would have been more likely, surely?

Hmm, good points, although I think Snape only jumped at the mention of Lucius Malfoy's name. Presumably he didn't know that Malfoy was a Death Eater, then? (Fudge was "visibly affronted" by it as well, which suggests that Malfoy has always managed to keep it pretty quiet.) I suppose that actually showing Fudge a visible Dark Mark would be more convincing than just telling him he was there. After all, Harry has told him he was there and he didn't believe it.

[Auri DeMeer]

That's really cool. And... um... maybe I'm slow but I can't figure out exactly what Mors Te Mordeo means. Someone help me?


Mors te mordeo is Latin:

Mors = Death
Te = You (accusative)
Mordeo = bite

"Mors te mordeo = Death bites you". The meaning is similar to "Morsmordre", since "mordre" is French for "bite" as well.

[nightingale]

That's an interesting bit of translation. It's kind of mocking in a very sick way of all the people that had to come home and see above their rooftops the product of an incantation that translates "Death bites you."

[Barbara Kennedy]

That's an interesting bit of translation. It's kind of mocking in a very sick way of all the people that had to come home and see above their rooftops the product of an incantation that translates "Death bites you."

Which would amuse Voldemort in his own little sick way.

[binxinxie]

Hem

[harlle15]

yeah! for the death eaters 6 are missing i think 1 would be the dead (rosier) 1 would eb karkaroff (scared) 1 is in duty (crouch) 3 would be the ones who are in azkaban, i think well! int really know the three but that what i think ok!

[red_fairy]

I guess JK Rowling found that book too, Rose Hunter.

I thought that Snape was the one who left Voldemort before Order of the Phoenix. But he was still on good terms with Lucius Malfoy, in the fifth book, and since Lucius is in his inner circle, which I'm assuming Arthur Weasley was right, would have to know. Now I'm not sure.

[SquibOnline]

Voldemort walked past some of the death eaters in silence

[Mr Dumbledore]

Back to the Dark Mark on the arm of Death Eaters. In Goblet of Fire, Chapter 27, Karkaroff says to Snape "It's never been this clear, never since-". We later learn that he was taliking about the dark mark.

From the "never been this clear" we can assume that it fades and sharpens from time to time. Perhaps this is a result of how strong Voldemort is. And if Voldemort is almost killed, hardly alive, the mark wouldn't be very strong if at all visible. So perhaps this is the reason why the MoM wasn't able to prove DE guilt.

[Mockingbird]

On the question of why the ministry didn't use the dark marks on forearms to identify deatheaters: I don't think anyone else knew about the marks. The important question is why didn't Snape say?

[KlutzyFreak]

The dark marks normally served as a means of identification among DEs, though, I find the notion that it wasn't necessarily visual at all, but instead tactile or some form of more mystical recognition believable. I also find it perfectly likely that it was visual, but normally under the conscious control of those bearing the mark, thus allowing one to "show" the mark to others when this seemed called for, while ordinarily keeping it safely hidden.

[Charmed Life]

I've been lurking for an age now, concerned that my post is already out there in fan-non(?), and that I simply haven't been smart enough to locate it. If anyone can "point me" I'd appreciate it - and elf-esque humbleness to you if I is getting in your way. I is simply wondering:

Why "death eaters"? Whose death are they eating/have they eaten? No-one seems to be asking this, but I think it is key.

I have a whole biblical/olde magic/snape theroy that could/may be/probably isn't true theory/resolution. I don't want to post it unless I am sure tho'. Please could you "point me"?

Sorry to moderators 4 more work... Please delete if unecessary.

[jazzy nifflah]

I suppose the "death" part refers to the fact they DEs enjoy spreading it around. As for the "eaters" part? Hmmm, not sure, maybe they just like it because it sounds menacing. :eyebrows:

[natemac]

This thread may interest you:

Death Eaters and the Dark Mark (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=4381)

Personally, I think that the Death Eaters are called Death eaters because they feed off the concept of death, suffering, etc. It is likely that they crave evil and thrive towards the suffering of others. Not very pleasant if you ask me.

ShudderedCheers,
NateMac

[Barbara Kennedy]

See this thread for the origins of the name "Death Eaters"

Knights of Walpurgis an old name for Death Eaters? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=11160)

[Ficus Ruminalis]

As interesting as it may be that the Death Eaters were once called "Knights of Walpurgis," it does little to address the questions about why our author settled on this particular name and what its significance may be.

My theory is that "Death Eater" is a reference to the so-called "sin eaters" of ancient times. A sin eater was a man who would eat a piece of bread laid on the chest of a dead person, supposedly taking the sins of the deceased upon himself. (Anyone who is unfortunate enough to have seen the movie The Order will know the idea...) Now, I don't know very much about sin eaters, but I know that this was practiced in Britain, and that it is quite obviously in conflict with the doctorine of the Christian church (which may or may not be relevant here).

If these "sin eaters" are indeed the inspiration for the name "Death Eater," then it is worth wondering whether there is any other kind of symbolic link between them. Perhaps as the sin eaters sought to take the sins of another upon themselves, the Death Eaters seek to take on another's burden of death? Could it be that Voldemort's continued existance is somehow dependent on the Death Eaters?

[kjr99044]

They study death and hope to learn to cheat it. Using other lives to prevent their demise...

Alternately, from an english to latin dictionary: vescor -i dep. [to eat , feed on; to use, enjoy].

Wouldn't it be interesting to find out that the former Death Eater (the one who worked in the Department of Mysteries) was studying that crumbling archway on the stone dias?

-kjr

[Coik]

It's been mentioned a few times in the books that, when ol' Voldy isn't killing mudbloods for fun, he was attempting to find a way to conquer death. That's part of the reason why he was after the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone in book one, that's why no one other than Dumbledore recognized him as Tom Riddle (due to all the experimentation and "dark" magic he used on himself), and that's how he knew about flesh, blood, and bone in book four. It's even stated outright when he and Dumbledore are dueling in book five.

Given that, it's much of a stretch to think that his cadre of followers would be called Death Eaters. Presumably they help with his research...in essence, they help him eat/conquer/destroy/whatever death.

Which most people probably wouldn't object to (who wouldn't want to live forever?), which IMO is why the whole pureblood thing was tacked on.

[IkariBattousai]

I don't know if anyone's from Britain in this thread, but maybe it's just something that would make more sense if you were British, there are a lot of names for things i the Harry Potter books that I thought sounded wierd, and sometimes even stupid.