Secret-Keeper's Choice

[simplybecky]

I have posed this question in the MuggleNet Editorials section, but would like to open it up for discussion in its own thread. I did not see a thread discussing this particular aspect of the Fidelius Charm, so if there is one already, please redirect me and I'll post there :rotfl:

Today I was rereading the passsage in PoA that discusses the details of the Fidelius Charm, and I was struck by something that Professor Flitwick said."An immensely complex spell," he said squeakily," involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find - unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!"
(PoA, pg. 205, American paperback, emphasis added)The thought that occurred to me is that if the Secret-Keeper has to choose to divulge the Secret, a person under the influence of Imperius Curse would not be able to reveal the secret, because it would not be their choice. It's not really a huge revelation, but I thought it was an interesting thought to ponder. What does everyone else think?

[johnnyandme]

very interesting....... maybe this is not going to be the only time we hear off the charm because if it can kept someone from spilling in all situations....... that could be important to the plot with the prophesy...... i wish i knew mor eabout it like all the stipulations on what u can do with the charm because if it can be used on more than one person..... dumbledore can tell the order the full contents of the prophesy

[TheCruciatus]

very interesting....... maybe this is not going to be the only time we hear off the charm because if it can kept someone from spilling in all situations....... that could be important to the plot with the prophesy...... i wish i knew mor eabout it like all the stipulations on what u can do with the charm because if it can be used on more than one person..... dumbledore can tell the order the full contents of the prophesy

Even if Dumbledore used a form of the Fidelius Charm to tell the Order the contents of the Prophecy in hopes that as Secret Keepers they would in fact keep the secret, that doesn't stop there from being spies in the Order.

It's a good point though, simplybecky, except that it doesn't mean too much overall. If your assumption is right, which I think it could easily be correct, that only stops Voldemort and his followers from hitting a Secret Keeper with Imperius and demanding they reveal the information. They can still simply kidnap the Keeper and torture him/her with something like the Cruciatus curse until the Keeper gives in and willingly tells the secret to save their own necks. Even if under duress, in a torture situation they'd still be willingly telling the secret as they could take it to the grave if they wished.

What I'd like to know is that if say, Pettigrew had taken the Potter's secret to his grave without betraying them to Voldemort, upon the Keeper's death is the spell ended, or does it stay until the caster chooses to reveal it?

[LilCubanita67]

Voldemort doesn't really need to put people under the Imperius Curse to find out the secret. He has other ways of getting them to reveal it. He can torture them until they choose to reveal the secret. Or he can tempt them with things, such as power or wealth, so that they may choose to reveal it.

[simplybecky]

Well, of course Voldemort can torture someone until they choose to divulge a secret, but there is always the chance of the person choosing to not give into torture and keep the secret with them, even in insanity and death.

I just thought it was an interesting idea that the Secret-Keeper had to choose to divulge the information. To me, it makes this quote from PoA even more meaningful."He -- he was taking over everywhere!" gasped Pettigrew. "Wh -- what was there to be gained by refusing him?"
"What was there to be gained by fighting the most evil wizard who has ever existed?" said Black, with a terrible fury in his face. "Only innocent lives, Peter!"
"You don't understand!" whined Pettigrew. "He would have killed me, Sirius!"
"THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!"
(PoA, pg. 374-375, American paperback)I just don't know why I didn't see it before. Once again, JKR has emphasized choice here.

[Tami]

I agree that it must be the secret keeper's choice to share that info, but under torture and bribes many people will choice to share. I do wonder what happens if the secret keeper dies though, I assume the secret would be kept then unless the person who had the secret keeper wished to share it.

I bet we will see the use of a secret keeper again though.

[twinsrule26]

very interesting idea if the person has to choose then torture would not work because how would LV or his DE's know who to grab or whitch questions to ask ?

[LilCubanita67]

how would LV or his DE's know who to grab or whitch questions to ask ?
Anybody that knew the person well enough and close enough to keep their secret. If I needed someone as a secret keeper I wouldn't just grab anyone off the street and say, "Hey, my life is in your hands! Keep my secret will ya?!"

[MissingOctober]

I think that it is very good that the Secret-Keeper gets the option to tell or not. I mean, even in the magical world people still have their freedom, and even in times of trouble, someone can still be a hero- not any flashy superhero, but a true one that knows when to keep their mouth shut. I find that all interesting and very admirable.

[The Gurg]

I like the way you think...What do you reckon about using truth potion. Do you reckon that if the Secret Keeper were given a truth potion to divulge the information, that it would actually take effect.

[TaraBrady]

From what professor Flitwick said, I don't think using veritaserum would work, no.

That's an interesting question, though. Would the secret-keeper be able to lie about that one thing, or would they be unable to answer the question at all? If they just can't answer, then that would be a clue that the Fidelus charm had been used.

[simplybecky]

You all are coming up with such great questions - the fruit of spinning minds :tu:

[expatronum]

i wish i knew mor eabout it like all the stipulations on what u can do with the charm because if it can be used on more than one person..... dumbledore can tell the order the full contents of the prophesy

How do we know Dumbledore hasn't told the Order of the contents of the prophecy? Maybe not all of them but atleast some of them?

[Motoss]

He must have...otherwise, why would protecting Harry be so important for the Order? THey've got to know that he's key to defeating Voldemort.

[Baron_G]

No I think the knowledge of the prophecy is rare. One reason why JKR makes such a big deal when answering questions related to it.

Doesn't anyone think that the Imperius Curse's with the one exception to its proper functioning being strength of character, depends on choice as well? The very fact that Harry chooses not to remain in the blissful state it offers and that something stronger in him doesn't allow him to give in, doesn't it indicate choice? Wouldn't the Imperius Curse be like any other temptation?

Now the wand-based legilimency spell on the other hand, that might not count.

[TheCruciatus]

I am pretty sure that the Order trusts Dumbledore enough to know that there's an important reason for Harry's safety. I mean the only alternative is not helping him against Voldemort, so yeah.

Baron_G, that is a really good point, but from what Imposter!Moody said, they have complete control over the individual place under the curse. I believe the Strength of Mind and Willpower are only used to fight to curse in general. I don't think the Imperius Curse can fall under the same power as a bribe or torture, to be honest, since we really don't know all that much about it having only seen it used on Harry for a short time. That brings up the question of why Crouch Jr. would build up Harry's immunity to it, but that's going off topic...

Legilimency to read secrets protected by the Fidelius Charm... interesting! I suppose if the Legilimens in general was strong magically he could break past the Fidelius Charm. We've heard that it's possible to break through Memory Charms, and there are charm/curse breakers (Bill Weasley for instance), so it may just depend on how strong the Fidelius Charm is.

That brings up the question of "Can the Fidelius Charm on the Secret Keeper be broken with Legilimency or other charm/curse breaking techniques?"

[Wickedgirl86]

Maybe if it was just any wizard casting the spell I guess there might be away. But this is Dumbledore he takes a lot of extra steps when plaining things if you haven't noticed. We know he uses Legilimency so I'm sure he knows something to throw it off this spell.

[TheCruciatus]

Maybe if it was just any wizard casting the spell I guess there might be away. But this is Dumbledore he takes a lot of extra steps when plaining things if you haven't noticed. We know he uses Legilimency so I'm sure he knows something to throw it off this spell.

It goes by the strength of the spell, too, because we know there are 'weak' and 'strong' Memory Charms. Weaker ones are less effective and more easily broken. It most likely also has to do with with Witch/Wizard who casted the spell and the one who is trying to break it. I imagine it would be very hard to break one of Dumbledore's Memory Charms. Not that Dumbledore would ever cast them.

[anabel]

I wonder, if the Secret-Keeper was killed, would the people protected by the Fidelius charm remain hidden for ever? I mean, could they reveal their hiding place themselves? Perhaps the death of the Secret-Keeper breaks the charm, but that would really be too easy - one AK and Voldemort could have found James and Lily without needing a traitor. If Dumbledore dies now, will new members of the Order ever find out where HQ is?

[TheCruciatus]

I wonder, if the Secret-Keeper was killed, would the people protected by the Fidelius charm remain hidden for ever? I mean, could they reveal their hiding place themselves? Perhaps the death of the Secret-Keeper breaks the charm, but that would really be too easy - one AK and Voldemort could have found James and Lily without needing a traitor. If Dumbledore dies now, will new members of the Order ever find out where HQ is?

That's what I was saying earlier, and it's very interesting. Sirius states that he would have taken the secret of the Potters' whereabouts to the grave with him had he been Secret Keeper and Voldemort caught him. If the charm broke when a Secret Keeper died, would there be any point to taking it to grave? Sirius is loyal, so it's hard to tell if that would keep the Potters safe or if he just wouldn't betray them for anything.

[TaraBrady]

The secret wouldn't be revealed when the charm broke, it would just stop being unlearnable. If Sirius had been the secret keeper, and Voldemort had happened to kill Sirius right outside their door, he'd find them pretty quickly. Otherwise, he'd still have to search for them, giving Lilly and James time to try to get away.

I do think that the charm probably breaks when the secret keeper dies; Flitwick did say it concealed a secret inside a living soul. If the secret was safe forever if the secret-keeper died without divulging it, it would be too easy for someone to take advantage of that. (I picture Voldemort persuading one of his followers to be a secret keeper, and promptly killing them.)

[Bunny]

So the question is : Why did Sirius change from being the secret keeper?
He was chosen because of the trust that the Potters had in him. They would have returned the service if they could but it was them (and Harry) that Voldemort wanted and so Sirius was chosen.
Sirius then started thinking and probably worried that he was was too obvious a choice.
Did he know that there was a way to break the fidelius charm and that is why he persuaded Wormtail to be the secret keeper instead?
Or was it because he felt that it was better if it was somebody less likely?
Sirius was unlikely to be persuaded by dreams of power or money or death, because he told Wormtail that "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED!" roared Black. "DIED RATHER THAN BETRAY YOUR FRIENDS, AS WE WOULD HAVE DONE FOR YOU!" Now this poses a question! Does this mean that even if Pettigrew had died, would Voldemort still not have been able to find the Potters?
The secret wouldn't be revealed when the charm broke, it would just stop being unlearnable. If Sirius had been the secret keeper, and Voldemort had happened to kill Sirius right outside their door, he'd find them pretty quickly. Otherwise, he'd still have to search for them, giving Lilly and James time to try to get away.

I do think that the charm probably breaks when the secret keeper dies; Flitwick did say it concealed a secret inside a living soul. If the secret was safe forever if the secret-keeper died without divulging it, it would be too easy for someone to take advantage of that. (I picture Voldemort persuading one of his followers to be a secret keeper, and promptly killing them.) *My bold* Is this necessarily true? If Sirius said "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED" could this mean that there was then, no way that Voldemort would be able to find the Potters. After all one of Voldemorts followers did become the secret keeper and he wasn't killed, because he did divulge the information. Which, I have to say, all of Voldemorts followers would do anyway.

[TaraBrady]

Yes, I do think it is perfectly true. What I said was that it would be easy for someone (such as Voldemort, but any sufficiently ruthless person will do) to get someone else to be a secret keeper (and I'm not talking about the Potters here) and then kill them as soon as the spell is done. If killng the secret keeper somehow sealed the spell, it would have been very stupid for Voldemort to kill Pettigrew. If it broke the spell, then sure, he could have killed Peter, but he still would have had to search for the Potters.

Voldemort: "Thanks for being my secret keeper! Avada Kedavra! Mwahaha! Now my special puff pastry recipe is safe forever!"

(I've used this line before, but the thread seems to have been pruned, so I think it's okay)

I don't think that Sirius saying 'you should have died' means that the charm is 'sealed,' and the secret is safe forever when the secret keeper dies. I think, as I said before, that when the secret keeper dies, the charm is broken, but the information is not revealed, it's just no longer impossible to learn without the secret keeper telling you (since there isn't a secret keeper any more.) Possibly, if the secret keeper were to become a ghost, they might be able to continue as a secret keeper, but otherwise, once the person is dead, their soul is no longer around to contain a secret.

[MadMagic]

Yeah, I don't think death seals the charm forever.

Anyway, about the secret keepers choice, I feel divulging the secret under the Imperius curse would still be the choice of the secret keeper. When Harry was under it he could have choosen to just do what he was told or he could have choosen to refuse, which he did. Just because people are weak minded doesn't mean that they aren't making a choice.
So, I don't know whether Wormtail really could have withheld the information if Voldemort really wanted it from him.

[anabel]

The secret wouldn't be revealed when the charm broke, it would just stop being unlearnable. If Sirius had been the secret keeper, and Voldemort had happened to kill Sirius right outside their door, he'd find them pretty quickly. Otherwise, he'd still have to search for them, giving Lilly and James time to try to get away.

I do think that the charm probably breaks when the secret keeper dies; Flitwick did say it concealed a secret inside a living soul. If the secret was safe forever if the secret-keeper died without divulging it, it would be too easy for someone to take advantage of that. (I picture Voldemort persuading one of his followers to be a secret keeper, and promptly killing them.)
I agree with all this. If the Secret-Keeper died, the charm would be broken and they would have to find a new one, but the secret would neither be revealed or lost for ever!

Yes, I do think it is perfectly true. What I said was that it would be easy for someone (such as Voldemort, but any sufficiently ruthless person will do) to get someone else to be a secret keeper (and I'm not talking about the Potters here) and then kill them as soon as the spell is done. If killng the secret keeper somehow sealed the spell, it would have been very stupid for Voldemort to kill Pettigrew. If it broke the spell, then sure, he could have killed Peter, but he still would have had to search for the Potters.

Voldemort: "Thanks for being my secret keeper! Avada Kedavra! Mwahaha! Now my special puff pastry recipe is safe forever!"That makes me think of stories I have heard of French Chateaux (sp?) where secret rooms and passages were built and the architect and builders "taken care of" afterwards to ensure that nobody knew about them. I think the mentality is the same - "my personal secret is far more important than the lives of these people so I'll kill them."

Yeah, I don't think death seals the charm forever.

Anyway, about the secret keepers choice, I feel divulging the secret under the Imperius curse would still be the choice of the secret keeper. When Harry was under it he could have choosen to just do what he was told or he could have choosen to refuse, which he did. Just because people are weak minded doesn't mean that they aren't making a choice.
So, I don't know whether Wormtail really could have withheld the information if Voldemort really wanted it from him.Wormtail was in hiding at the time. Sirius went to check on him and found him gone with no sign of a struggle. Of course it is debatable whether Wormtail would have the strength of mind to resist Imperio, but there was obviously danger involved in being Secret-Keeper.

[clkginny]

I agree with all this. If the Secret-Keeper died, the charm would be broken and they would have to find a new one, but the secret would neither be revealed or lost for ever!

That makes me think of stories I have heard of French Chateaux (sp?) where secret rooms and passages were built and the architect and builders "taken care of" afterwards to ensure that nobody knew about them. I think the mentality is the same - "my personal secret is far more important than the lives of these people so I'll kill them."

Wormtail was in hiding at the time. Sirius went to check on him and found him gone with no sign of a struggle. Of course it is debatable whether Wormtail would have the strength of mind to resist Imperio, but there was obviously danger involved in being Secret-Keeper.
If an Imperio Curse could allow a secret keeper to divulge the secret, why was Sirius going to go kill Pettigrew? He would have wanted to verify why Pettigrew had given up the secret, if he thought there could have been mitigating circumstances, right?
I think the only way is by choice. If you are Crucioed(?) and you give it up, that is still a choice, confessing by torture. (And that makes sense for Sirius, too, because I don't think he would have had any sympathy for Pettigrew willingly giving up the secret, even under torture. To Sirius that would be weak). If this makes sense, anyway.

[simplybecky]

No I think the knowledge of the prophecy is rare. One reason why JKR makes such a big deal when answering questions related to it.I think you're correct here. JKR is definitely trying to keep under wraps just how many people knew about the prophecy:Rumour: The Lestranges were sent after Neville to kill him.
No, they weren’t, they were very definitely sent after Neville’s parents. I can’t say too much about this because it touches too closely on the prophecy and how many people knew about it, but the Lestranges were not in on the secret.
(emphasis added)I think finding out who knew about the prophecy is important. That being said, we have our work cut out for us because it seems like that number would be very small.