Deatheaters Can't Resign

[hpdreamz]

Hi, I was just wondering, Snape was a deatheater and in Book 5 Sirius say that his relative was murdered by deatheaters because he didn't want to be a deatheater anymore. He said you "can't hand in your resgnation to Lord Voldermort, its life long commitment." or something like that. Deatheaters can't resign, Snape was a deatheater, he is still alive so he must still be a deatheater or still be spying on Voldy by pretending to still be.

[asrivathsan]

Ya, DE can't resign. It is firstly not an 'official' organisation. You are VD's followers and you have the mark. You hand over a resignation letter to voldy and what is going to be said next would be "Avada Kedarva". Voldemort will not bear it if some one is not loyal to him. Snape has been keeping a low profile in the outside world. Voldemort has more than enough to worry about. His aim is to kill harry and killing snape is secondary. But if severus comes and stands before him, he wouldn't mind saying the two words again

[jasper]

I believe Snape was spying on Death Eaters before the night Voldemort tried to kill Harry. He didn't "resign" from being a Death Eater- he still was one, but he was a traitorous one.

So, I think your logic is correct. Snape is still a Death Eater now. And presumably, he is still a traitorous one.

[SiertKarzeni]

Hi, I was just wondering, Snape was a deatheater and in Book 5 Sirius say that his relative was murdered by deatheaters because he didn't want to be a deatheater anymore. He said you "can't hand in your resgnation to Lord Voldermort, its life long commitment." or something like that. Deatheaters can't resign, Snape was a deatheater, he is still alive so he must still be a deatheater or still be spying on Voldy by pretending to still be.

The full quote is:

"...he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's lifetime of service or death." pg. 112 of the American hard cover edition. In case anyone wanted the whole version ^-^

I believe Snape was spying on Death Eaters before the night Voldemort tried to kill Harry. He didn't "resign" from being a Death Eater- he still was one, but he was a traitorous one.

One thing that always bothered me about the idea of Snape being a spy before Harry's parents death is that the fact that it meant he should have known about Peter Pettigrew. All the other death-eaters saw him during the graveyard scene in GoF and they didn't seem at all surprised to see Peter very much alive. I just assumed Snape would have known this as well. If he didn't then that would mean Voldy never trusted him before, at least not enough to divulge this bit of information. Then there's the possibility that He DID know and might not be as trustworthy as Dumbledore makes him out to be. Really I'm not sure these are just opinions not facts. It's really up to J.K. to decide ^-^

Just for Fun now:

Voldemort: 'Ah Snape you have done some excellent work as a fellow Death Eater for many years. Tell me why you would like to resign?'

Snape: Well my Lord, I've grown rather tired of torturing muggles, I'd much rather be a Potions Master. Possibly the Defense Against Dark Arts Professor.'

Voldemort: 'oh yes I see, I see. Well it was nice having you as a minion for so long. I really hate to see you go.' There's two ways we can go about this.'

Snape: Two ways my Lord? I'm not quite sure what you mean.'

Voldemort: 'Well I can bring out the Cruciatus Curse stamp of Approval or the Avada Kedavra Stamp of Rejection. Which would you prefer?'

Snape: ....

Voldemort: 'Come on, choose one, I'm not picky.'

(I'm going to make this a part of my sig mainly cause it gives me the giggles. ^_^)

[jasper]

All the other death-eaters saw him during the graveyard scene in GoF and they didn't seem at all surprised to see Peter very much alive. ^

That GOF scene happens just about a year after the night Pettigrew runs away from Hogwarts and returns to Voldemort in PoA. The Death Eaters would have had time to find out about Peter by then, wouldn't they?
I guess the ones who didn't know weren't going to register much surprise at Peter-- as they were too busy being surprised to see Voldemort in a body again at the time. Plus, they were hooded and probably not eager to draw Voldemort's attention to themselves

[SiertKarzeni]

That GOF scene happens just about a year after the night Pettigrew runs away from Hogwarts and returns to Voldemort in PoA. The Death Eaters would have had time to find out about Peter by then, wouldn't they?
I guess the ones who didn't know weren't going to register much surprise at Peter-- as they were too busy being surprised to see Voldemort in a body again at the time. Plus, they were hooded and probably not eager to draw Voldemort's attention to themselves


That's a possibility, but Sirius said in PoA:

"You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years" said Black. "You've been hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban, Peter..." pg 368 of the American hard cover edition of PoA.

Granted that during this time they think he's dead, that still doesn't go against the fact that they knew he was the one who gave information to Voldemort about the Potters and that they felt he double-crossed them.

[Tiphany]

Does Vol;demort know that Snape is/was a spy and that he's loyal to Dumbledore (if, of course, he is and it's not a double-bluff)? I assumed Voldemort was referring to Snape when he said "one who I believe has left my service for ever... he will be killed, of course" in the graveyard. In that case, presumably Voldemort's just biding his time and will eventually try to kill him.

Throughout OotP, LV was trying to keep hidden, to keep anyone from knowing he was back. He couldn't just turn up at Hogwarts to Avada Kedavra Snape, because then his secret would be out, and perhaps by the same token he couldn't get a loyal death eater to do it for him as people would suspect Voldemort was behind it. Voldemort is clever enough to look at his long-term strategy and realise that keeping himself hidden from the establishment is more important at the moment than killing Snape. Perhaps he'll try to get to Snape in book 6, now that the secret's out that Voldemort is back.

Otherwise, perhaps Voldemort thinks that Snape is still loyal to him and is spying on Dumbledore and the Order for him; still a true Death Eater, in fact.

[jasper]

Ah, SiertKarzeni. I see what you mean. But Sirius hearing that in Azkaban is still post-Goddrick-Hollow. Snape might not have kept his ear to the Death Eater grapevine after that night. He (knowing the marauders as he did) wouldn't have had any trouble believing Sirius was the double crosser, even if he heard rumors about Peter. We've seen that Snape's grudge against James and Sirius blinds him.

[SiertKarzeni]

Does Vol;demort know that Snape is/was a spy and that he's loyal to Dumbledore (if, of course, he is and it's not a double-bluff)? I assumed Voldemort was referring to Snape when he said "one who I believe has left my service for ever... he will be killed, of course" in the graveyard. In that case, presumably Voldemort's just biding his time and will eventually try to kill him.

Throughout OotP, LV was trying to keep hidden, to keep anyone from knowing he was back. He couldn't just turn up at Hogwarts to Avada Kedavra Snape, because then his secret would be out, and perhaps by the same token he couldn't get a loyal death eater to do it for him as people would suspect Voldemort was behind it. Voldemort is clever enough to look at his long-term strategy and realise that keeping himself hidden from the establishment is more important at the moment than killing Snape. Perhaps he'll try to get to Snape in book 6, now that the secret's out that Voldemort is back.

Otherwise, perhaps Voldemort thinks that Snape is still loyal to him and is spying on Dumbledore and the Order for him; still a true Death Eater, in fact.

You bring up a good point. What I'm really interested in knowing is if Voldemort knows Snape is a traitor, then how has Snape been spying on him so far? Hopefully that will get explained in HBP. ^-^

Ah, SiertKarzeni. I see what you mean. But Sirius hearing that in Azkaban is still post-Goddrick-Hollow. Snape might not have kept his ear to the Death Eater grapevine after that night. He (knowing the marauders as he did) wouldn't have had any trouble believing Sirius was the double crosser, even if he heard rumors about Peter. We've seen that Snape's grudge against James and Sirius blinds him.

That is a good possibility as well. I suppose we will have to wait for HBP to find out all these answers. The idea that Snape would never believe that someone as weak as Peter to be a traitor could blind him to the truth as he much rather believe it was Sirius who he hated more. ^-^

[Sabine Serpente]

Does Vol;demort know that Snape is/was a spy and that he's loyal to Dumbledore (if, of course, he is and it's not a double-bluff)? I assumed Voldemort was referring to Snape when he said "one who I believe has left my service for ever... he will be killed, of course" in the graveyard. In that case, presumably Voldemort's just biding his time and will eventually try to kill him.

Otherwise, perhaps Voldemort thinks that Snape is still loyal to him and is spying on Dumbledore and the Order for him; still a true Death Eater, in fact.

This one is always cause for debate. :eyebrows:
I was under the impression that this part of his speech was not referring to Severus Snape. It is implied that since Snape is an Occlumens, he is able to lie to Voldemort without him knowing. This would aid him in successfuly spying on Voldy and Co. for The Order.

[asrivathsan]

These may be good references, though not to the point

Do you think Voldemort knows that snape is a spy #2 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=44219&highlight=Voldemort+snape)
Do you think voldemort knows that snape is a spy? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16339&highlight=Voldemort+snape)

[SiertKarzeni]

You know what I just thought when considering this thread? I always wondered if any of the other Death Eaters were like Regulus. I mean do you think after seeing what happened to him the decided that lifetime of servitude was better than death? Better than leaving their families behind? I'm not saying that every death eater is redeemable, though J.K. has said in a question pertaining to whether Peter can be redeemed she said that 'anyone can be redeemed' not the full quote at least I don't think it is, but you get the idea. So I'm just saying that their could be other Death Eaters that would love to resign but are too afraid to do so.

[enthusiast]

Isn't it implied that one way Professor Snape may or may not be spying is through Lucius Malfoy? Doesn't Umbridge says to Professor Snape something like "Lucius always speaks so highly of you."?

Just a thought,
Sarah

[SquibOnline]

It means you can't just walk away, he will hunt you down. But Snape had Dumbledore's protection

[SiertKarzeni]

Isn't it implied that one way Professor Snape may or may not be spying is through Lucius Malfoy? Doesn't Umbridge says to Professor Snape something like "Lucius always speaks so highly of you."?

Just a thought,
Sarah

Oh yes! I forgot about this that would mean Lucius trusts Snape apparently. Which could mean that Voldemort hasn't really told his followers who he believes to be a traitor. And Snape can find things out from Lucius through Legilimency if Lucius trusts him. I'm not sure if Snape uses this against Draco to find out about Draco's father since we're really not sure how much Draco knows what's going on the inside of things.

[Sirius Black]

Oh yes! I forgot about this that would mean Lucius trusts Snape apparently. Which could mean that Voldemort hasn't really told his followers who he believes to be a traitor. And Snape can find things out from Lucius through Legilimency if Lucius trusts him. I'm not sure if Snape uses this against Draco to find out about Draco's father since we're really not sure how much Draco knows what's going on the inside of things.

I think Snape's important and dangerous work at the end of GOF and also the fact that he always says he's out there risking his life in Ootp is perhaps spying on Voldemort by being a traitor. But in Gof after Voldemort's revival, he mentions something about one death eater has left me forever, he will be killed of course, while my most faithful one is at Hogwarts(meaning Moody-Crouch Jr). That one death eater, who could it be, only 2 possible people, either Snape or Karkaroff. If it's Karkaroff, then Snape just disappeared for Voldemort or is still a spy, but if it's Snape, then he can't be a spy.

[wizkid6]

I think Snape's important and dangerous work at the end of GOF and also the fact that he always says he's out there risking his life in Ootp is perhaps spying on Voldemort by being a traitor. But in Gof after Voldemort's revival, he mentions something about one death eater has left me forever, he will be killed of course, while my most faithful one is at Hogwarts(meaning Moody-Crouch Jr). That one death eater, who could it be, only 2 possible people, either Snape or Karkaroff. If it's Karkaroff, then Snape just disappeared for Voldemort or is still a spy, but if it's Snape, then he can't be a spy.
Karkaroff is the DE "too cowardly to return" (you must have forgotten LV mentioning him). As for the DE who has "left me forever" I have heard lots of names tossed around like Snape and Fudge. My personal theory is that Ludo Bagman is who LV is referring to (remember, he did go on trial but was cleared because of his quidditch fame), Snape was in the circle of DE's in GoF, and Fudge is just an ambitious fool!

[hobbitseeker]

Snape could have also been the one "too cowardly to return." We just don't know yet.

It is interesting to note that of the DE's that we know of only Peter and Snape were not at the DOM. I would guess Peter needed to hide the fact that he is alive, and Snape hide the fact that he is a supposed traitor to Dumbledore. I just realized that with most of the Death Eaters incarcerated after the battle in the Department of Mysteries, Voldemort at the moment only has Snape, Pettigrew and Bellatrix left to do his bidding. Now, I don't think the DE's will be gone for long, but I wonder what Voldemort will do with these three?

[tarachristwen]

they can't hand simply hand in their resignations..
lord voldy will kill them with the avada kedavra curse cos they have to serve him till death..

this makes snape a traitor and i don't think he's the one who's too cowardly to come back.. karkaroff is the one..

[silver ink pot]

That GOF scene happens just about a year after the night Pettigrew runs away from Hogwarts and returns to Voldemort in PoA. The Death Eaters would have had time to find out about Peter by then, wouldn't they?
I guess the ones who didn't know weren't going to register much surprise at Peter-- as they were too busy being surprised to see Voldemort in a body again at the time. Plus, they were hooded and probably not eager to draw Voldemort's attention to themselves

Also in GoF, in the first Chapter - "The Riddle House" - Voldemort discusses plans with Peter, which we find out later have to do with Barty Crouch/Fake Moody planting Harry's name in the Cup and rigging the maze so Harry will be sent to the graveyard. Alot has already happened in the months since PoA took place.

[Kopannie]

OK, let's say Snape is just what Dumbledore says he is.

This means, in order for him to continue to be of significant use to the Order, he MUST have a good connection to the DEs and Voldy. It is hightly possible that Snape WAS in the graveyard, since I don't recall his whereabouts being mentioned until after Harry is in the hospital ward. Now, the only way for him to have access to the DEs and Voldy would be if they don't know that he IS a spy (obviously) and if Lucius 'speaks highly' of him, he must still be trusted (or Lucius is spying on HIM for Voldy) the thing that confuses me if, i distinctly remember Voldy saying at some point in one of the books for someone to not lie to him because he always knows.
Which means.... if Snape is spying for the order, is considered a 'loyal death eater' by the DEs, how could Voldemort NOT know?

Unanwserable questions....

WHY ISN"T IT JULY YET?!

[cutiebaby]

I believe Snape was spying on Death Eaters before the night Voldemort tried to kill Harry. He didn't "resign" from being a Death Eater- he still was one, but he was a traitorous one.

So, I think your logic is correct. Snape is still a Death Eater now. And presumably, he is still a traitorous one.
yeah, I'm with you both on this one.... Snape's a DE, not he's on DD side

[Wickedgirl86]

I think Snape was in that ciricle that night and he was one of those Voldemort passed by with out talking to. Maybe Voldemort thinks Snape is spying on Dumbledore for him. Thus Snape would be a dubble dubble spy. Each side thinking he was a spy for them. He wouldn't say anything to Snape knowning Harry was lessioning and, he didn't want Harry running of to tell Dumbleldore that Snape was still a Death Eater because then he could not use him as a spy. Get it?

[FoxyKnoxy]

I think with Voldemort and the DE's it is like: you can die trying to leave but not be allowed to leave peacefully. I think Snape is still with the DE organization but may not have been at the graveyard that night. It doesn't mean he isn't still working for them. I am sure there is no 'get out of jail free cards' for them if they wanted to leave and they must be very suspicious of each other at all times. I couldn't imagine the paranoia amongst them all.

[Kopannie]

I think with Voldemort and the DE's it is like: you can die trying to leave but not be allowed to leave peacefully. I think Snape is still with the DE organization but may not have been at the graveyard that night. It doesn't mean he isn't still working for them. I am sure there is no 'get out of jail free cards' for them if they wanted to leave and they must be very suspicious of each other at all times. I couldn't imagine the paranoia amongst them all.
But that's not possible that he wasn't in the graveyard. Voldy said only 3 were missing. so unless snape is one of those 3, he was there.
GoF American Hardback p 651 ~~ And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, to cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever....he will be killed, of course....and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service
Previsouly, Voldy also mentions the Lestranges' absance.
Anyway, you can't have it both ways. Either Snape is one of the few that Voldy passes without comment, or he is "one, who I believe has left me forever"

One way or the other, I don't see Snape lasting without some retribution from Voldemort.

[skittles2]

I think Snape is still a death eater - not really, but to trick Voldy. And I think he fled from Voldy, looking for shelter at Hogwarts, because he didn't want to be a DE anymore. Dumbledore must have protected him some way, maybe he used the Fidelius charm and Voldy couldn't find Snape inside Hogwars.

[asrivathsan]

I have a doubt about the charm. I think it is just that voldemort's eye is just at harry and he is in a way paying very little attention to the rest of the world. I think that is one of his failures. Though he tricked harry in ootp, by using sirius, why not try to get hermy or ron really, if can't get sirius really? I mean, after all, if harry had learnt occlumency properly, he would not have gone. Voldemort's attemp would have been useless. I mean, how could he presume that dd won't tell harry at all about this.

This focus on harry is making him a little blind to rest of the world. Even if he knows he is not taking any steps to do somehting against snape....

My thoughts though.

[Norbertha]

I think Snape is the only Death Eater in the world who found a way out while Voldemort was still powerful. He still has to pretend that he's a Death Eater, but he isn't loyal to Voldemort, and Dumbledore and the Order knows that. So he can feel good about himself - at least in that respect. I think Snape and Regulus had similar experiences while they were both still in it, when they were both young Death Eaters. Regulus "panicked about what he was asked to do" - perhaps Snape had a similar experience, but the difference was, he didn't panic. He came up with a plan that would get himself out of there. Only he couldn't take Regulus with him. Regulus was a couple of years younger than Snape (2? 3?), so he must have been really, reallly young for being a death eater. Regulus panicked, and was killed as soon as Voldemort/the other Death Eaters found out about his feelings. Snape, however, is very good at hiding his feelings. We know he's a skilled Occlumens at the present time. I think this talent comes from Snape having learned how to hide his feelings through a lifetime of ill treatment. This is what saved him from Voldemort. He was able to fool Voldemort though hiding his qualms, and make him believe that he's still loyal. Snape found the only way out.

[Nephel]

Snape's relinquish comes during Voldemort's downfall. Many of Voldemort's Death Eaters faked thier way to freedom, i.e pretending tho be under the influence of the Imperius Curse. When they went crawling back to Voldemort in GoF, Voldemort seemed to forgive them and I think the same happened when Snape returned.

[victoriakrum]

thats why (at the graveyeard scene) voldemort said that he would kill the one who would not return.

[FoxyKnoxy]

I still believe that Snape wasn't at the graveyard that night. I think he is "the most loyal" of DE's. It would be just like JKR to put a spin on what we think we already know and that would be a great surprise from her!

You would think after Voldemort said those things about the three missing DE's, that the rest of them would be very suspicious of a possible spy amongst them. It happened before and it could happen again.

So again I wonder how much paranoia will be setting in with the DE clan? I also wonder if Voldemort told any DE's on the identity of these 3 people? Would he take care ofthe matter himself or would he deligate this matter out?

[JakeOfRavenclaw]

Snape is the "one who I believe has left me forever...". He didn't "resign", he just snuck off and turned traitor in the night.

[Tiphany]

This one is always cause for debate. :eyebrows:
I was under the impression that this part of his speech was not referring to Severus Snape. It is implied that since Snape is an Occlumens, he is able to lie to Voldemort without him knowing. This would aid him in successfuly spying on Voldy and Co. for The Order.

Ho hum. If he's not referring to Snape, who is it? Could it be a Shiny New Character? I suppose it's just that Snape is an important character so I feel he should be mentioned in the graveyard scene, and that phrase seems to fit him best. You're right about the Occlumency, I hadn't thought of that; perhaps that's why Voldy says "I believe" - he's not sure, because Snape is almost as good an Occlumens as Voldything is a Legilimens.

If Voldy knows Snape's a traitor, his best bet (if for some reason he can't / doesn't want to kill him) is to pretend he doesn't know, and feed him misleading information which will hopefully lead the Order astray, I guess. Thus Snape could keep spying, or at least thinking he was spying.

I still believe that Snape wasn't at the graveyard that night. I think he is "the most loyal" of DE's. It would be just like JKR to put a spin on what we think we already know and that would be a great surprise from her!



If Snape is "the most loyal", which I thought referred to Barty Crouch, then where does Crouch come in the tally? Why wouldn't Voldemort mention him and why he's missing?

[Fawkesified]

First of all, Voldemort didn't know Snape had left his side, he was a spy for Dumbledore. He only came out into the open after Voldemort's fall, but he still seems to be able to convince the Death Eaters of his loyalty. Then there is the fact that after Voldemort's fall, all the Death Eaters were... let's say redundant. If a company goes bankrupt and all it's workers are made redundant, if the company then resurfaces (unlikely I know), and somebody doesn't rejoin, I would call it a 'resignation'.

[FlameWielder]

No Deatheaters can't resign but they can run away and hope that Voldemort thinks to petty of them to pursue them. Thats what I think is what happened to Snape, he wanted power so he joined the person that had the most. After all Snape was sort of a loser back at school, always being made fun of. So he strays off towards Voldemort seeking vengence through power. Then Snape was pretty much a coward and got in too deep. I suspect that he wanted control so bad he got in Voldemorts inner circle and everything snowballed from that point on. He relized that he can't just get power over night and he found that he had to kill, betray and lie to get the power he ever so desired. I think this opened up his eyes and he got scared and tryed to get out of it. Being Snape was useless Voldemort didn't pursue once he figured out Snape was at Hogwarts. He could have to prove his point but also he has to take into account Dumbledore is up at Hogwarts also. So basically he brushed aside a minor loss and didn't care much.

[Kopannie]

Hey FlameWeilder.... I have to disagree. There have been arguments on here about if Snape was at the graveyard or one that Voldy plans to take care of. Either way, Snape matters. No matter how greasy his hair may be, Snape has a critical roll to play still, and if Voldy over looks this, it will be to his detriment.

[asrivathsan]

No Deatheaters can't resign but they can run away and hope that Voldemort thinks to petty of them to pursue them.

I can't fully agree with that. I am sorry to say this, but you make running away from voldemort easy. Voldemort doesn't consider betrayl petty. Snape is probably alive because, at that time voldemort's focus is on harry. Let us suppose voldermorts plan work out, then probably his next job would be to kill snape, if he doesn't die earlier.

[Dawn_Potter]

Well, I am pretty sure that you cannot just resign the Death Eaters... cause for example as we see with Snape the Dark Mark stays....

[RemusLupinFan]

I agree, by “resignation”, Sirius meant that once you join the Death Eaters, you can’t back down and tell Voldemort you don’t want to be a Death Eater anymore. I can logically see several reasons for Voldemort handing out a death sentence to anyone who wants to “resign”:

1) If you were allowed to leave, you’d know too much inside information about the Death Eaters’ plans and inner workings. But if you’re dead, you can’t blab that information to anyone. So killing people who want out is a way for Voldemort to make sure that secret information stays secret and isn’t told to the opposing side by a disgruntled Death Eater who wants out.

2) It is a reflection on Voldemort’s image: if tons of people were able to “resign” their commission as Death Eaters and live to tell about it, this would say about Voldemort that he’s forgiving, and that certainly is the last thing that Voldemort is. By killing those who want to back down, Voldemort is also maintaining his image as one to be feared and never one to be rejected.

3) If people had the option of not being a Death Eater anymore anytime they wanted with no punishment, then this wouldn’t create the kind of very loyal or dedicated servants that Voldemort wants. For example, if Voldemort ordered a Death Eater to kill someone and they felt like Regulus did, they would be much more likely to cop out and not obey Voldemort if they knew the consequence for disobeying wouldn’t be death. If it just resulted in the person being kicked from the group or demoted, etc, then I think this would promote more disobedience and wanting out than if the punishment for disobedience was death.

Getting back to Snape, I prefer to think he is indeed spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore. Technically, Snape never “handed in his resignation” to Voldemort- by that I mean that Snape never did let Voldemort know he wanted out. The way I picture Snape’s switch of loyalties is that he was asked to do something he didn't want to do, and thus realized he was making a mistake by being involved with the Death Eaters. I agree with what Norbertha said about the difference between Regulus’ and Snape’s reactions is that Regulus panicked and Snape did not. This makes a great deal of sense, since as Norbertha points out, Snape is good at Occlumens and is therefore good at burying his feelings. Thus, realizing that the commitment of being a Death Eater was life-long (and possibly seeing what happened to Regulus for having feelings of wanting out), Snape would never have let on to Voldemort that he wanted out, and thus he may have turned to Dumbledore for help. This could have been when Dumbledore arranged it so that Snape would spy on Voldemort as retribution for his actions, and so Snape would have always appeared as a loyal servant to Voldemort on the surface. But in reality, he was loyal to Dumbledore. I see this as the only reason Snape is still alive- because he never let on that he wasn’t completely 100% loyal to Voldemort. Otherwise, I think Snape would have ended up just like Regulus. I know there are still questions as to Snape’s true loyalty, but I feel he is, as Dumbledore says, trustworthy.

[swirlctw]

i know that this is going to be alittle off topic

when you get to be a deatheater and you are working for voldemort if you want out the only way out is in a box(coffin). you see it is just like with gangs if you want to get out you will not get out it is a lifetime sentence, the only way out is through death. it is the exact way with voldemort.

[asrivathsan]

Thats not off topic. That is the point. Voldy will give you a great farewell!

[Dawn_Potter]

Just a thought that came to my mind, but do you think one could resign the Order of the Phoenix easily?

I am asking this because someone before mentioned (in a great post ;) ) that it wouldn't make sense to let the Death Eaters leave knowing too much about the organisation. but wouldn't the same apply for the OotP? Or is the difference there that the ones are evil and the others aren't?

[Bunny]

So with the fact that Death Eaters can't resign established, who was in the graveyard?
I think that Snape had to be in the Graveyard - he is spying for the Order and if he wants information then it has to look as if he is still a DE.
There is also the comment Umbridge made to Snape. "Lucius speaks highly of you". Thereby implying that he has no cause to suspect Snape of being a traitor to Voldemort, and this is after the Graveyard scene.
Crouch Jr was the "most loyal servant".
Karkaroff was the "coward".

Which leaves us with "the one who did not return".
There has to be another Death Eater that we know, but don't know that he/she is a DE!
Hmmm, who could it be?

Of course, I could be completely wrong. Ah, well.

[Dawn_Potter]

Well "the one who will not return" and I believe that Voldemort added something like: He shall be punished...
strongly implying that this person shouldn't get out alive, if you ask me... so, maybe you can resign, just they will not accept it

[Bunny]

Well "the one who will not return" and I believe that Voldemort added something like: He shall be punished...
strongly implying that this person shouldn't get out alive, if you ask me... so, maybe you can resign, just they will not accept it Good point, but I don't think that anyone of the DE's expects to be allowed to resign (not after what happened to Regulus) - but the "one who will not return".
Perhaps he decided that what he was doing was wrong, and whatever the consequences (and that includes his death) he had to put it right.
Except that Voldemort didn't say "death" he said "punished".
Why won't he return? What is he doing that stops him from returning?
Did Voldemort send him on a mission, (perhaps spying) and that is when he learnt the error of his ways? Maybe that's when he decided not to return.
At least we know now that its a "he".

[asrivathsan]

I am asking this because someone before mentioned (in a great post ) that it wouldn't make sense to let the Death Eaters leave knowing too much about the organisation. but wouldn't the same apply for the OotP? Or is the difference there that the ones are evil and the others aren't?


There is a difference, or so i think. Th death eaters, some of them are dedicated to voldy, and probably voldemort would tell them a bit about his plans. But many are scared of him too. Plus nature of people who are on voldy's side and those in OOTP is very different. However much people are against each other in OOTP, when it comes to work they are all together... I shouldsay they have to be.

Then comes voldy and DD. DD trusts people, voldy doesn't. DD has human qualities, voldy doesn't. DD wil have confidence in most of the people in the order.

But again, DD doesn't tell them everything, does he?

[Bunny]

But again, DD doesn't tell them everything, does he? Neither, I think does Voldemort.
I agree, Dumbledore would allow someone to go, and go in one piece. (How good is he at memory charms? Just kidding!) After all, killing someone who wanted to leave would mean that he is no better than Voldemort, and we know he is ... hopefully.
DD has human qualities, voldy doesn't Agreed, and it is a point that is made throughout the books, perhaps to his downfall.
I agree with what RemusLupinFan said : I agree, by “resignation”, Sirius meant that once you join the Death Eaters, you can’t back down and tell Voldemort you don’t want to be a Death Eater anymore. I can logically see several reasons for Voldemort handing out a death sentence to anyone who wants to “resign”:

1) If you were allowed to leave, you’d know too much inside information about the Death Eaters’ plans and inner workings. But if you’re dead, you can’t blab that information to anyone. So killing people who want out is a way for Voldemort to make sure that secret information stays secret and isn’t told to the opposing side by a disgruntled Death Eater who wants out.

2) It is a reflection on Voldemort’s image: if tons of people were able to “resign” their commission as Death Eaters and live to tell about it, this would say about Voldemort that he’s forgiving, and that certainly is the last thing that Voldemort is. By killing those who want to back down, Voldemort is also maintaining his image as one to be feared and never one to be rejected.

3) If people had the option of not being a Death Eater anymore anytime they wanted with no punishment, then this wouldn’t create the kind of very loyal or dedicated servants that Voldemort wants. For example, if Voldemort ordered a Death Eater to kill someone and they felt like Regulus did, they would be much more likely to cop out and not obey Voldemort if they knew the consequence for disobeying wouldn’t be death. If it just resulted in the person being kicked from the group or demoted, etc, then I think this would promote more disobedience and wanting out than if the punishment for disobedience was death.

[arleneskil]

I also think the one who will never return and is to be punished is karkaroff because there is refrence to him running away rather than running off to join the party in the graveyard, also snape tells him to run away when they have their discussion in the dungeon so he must know that karkaroff will not be welcome in the inner circle of Voldimort. to my mind it could be possable that Snape is acting as a double agent spying on Voldimort for DD and also passing info to Voldimort re the OOTP. this is not to say that he is being disloyal to DD just that Voldimort has to believe he is loyal and if he believes Snape is away spying on the order it explains his absence from the DE's. Any info snape passes to Voldimort must therefore be phoney or useless to ensure the security of the order but ultimatly Snape may pay the price for this - the ultimate one! Snapes occlumency skills are crutial to the success of his task IF this is the task he was asked to resume at the end of book 4

[iDream]

I agree with arleneskil. Snape probably is playing the role of a double agent here. But his loyalty definitely lies with Dumbledore.

However Snape has always struck me as an opportunist. Think of it this way- even if Voldemort wins the war, Snape is not going to be affected. He'll still be considered a loyal DE and will stay in the ranks. And if the good side wins, he has Dumbledore's trust. Its a win-win situation for him. That is, if Voldemort doesn't find out his secret first...

[asrivathsan]

However Snape has always struck me as an opportunist. Think of it this way- even if Voldemort wins the war, Snape is not going to be affected.

Sorry to say this, but i don't agree. Percy is an opportunist, but not snape. There are times in your life when you realise that some principle that you have been following is wrong, and i think that is what happened in the case of snape.

[Bunny]

However Snape has always struck me as an opportunist. Think of it this way- even if Voldemort wins the war, Snape is not going to be affected. Sorry to say this, but i don't agree. Percy is an opportunist, but not Snape. There are times in your life when you realise that some principle that you have been following is wrong, and i think that is what happened in the case of Snape. Iagree with asrivathsan. Snape puts his life on the line every time he goes off and does some spying. It wouldn't take much of a slip (of his occlumency) for Voldemort to get wind of what he is really up to. I think that is one reason that Snape is so horrible to Harry.
That isn't the mark of an opportunist, that is somebody who has decided that this is better than doing what he was doing before and that anything that befalls him will be worth it because he is doing the right thing.

[iDream]

Sorry to say this, but i don't agree. Percy is an opportunist, but not snape. There are times in your life when you realise that some principle that you have been following is wrong, and i think that is what happened in the case of snape.

Snape is definitely an opportunist. I have felt so in more than one occasion in the series. The whole end scene in PoA, where he tried to do in Sirius, and his many attempts to get Harry off the Quidditch team/ suspended from school (CoS).

Of course the reason why he joined the Order may be a personal one, but the very fact that he joined Voldemort in the first place shows he's an opportunist.