Was Ginny's life shortened? Or Harry's for that matter?

[Rosie Cotton]

I did a search, but if there is already a thread, my profound apologies.

I was rereading Goblet of Fire, and in the chapter entitled the "Death Eaters," Voldemort says that he posessed animals in order to stay alive (his preference was snakes). However, he says that it shortened their lives.

Does this mean that the same thing happens to people when they are posessed. Do their lives get shortened as well? Does this mean that Harry and Ginny have had their lives shortened? Or is this something peculiar to animals?

[Evita82]

Um, well I dont think she was possessed in the same way as the animals were. She was possessed by a weak memory and the animals in the forest were possessed by Voldemorts spirit or shadow or whatever he was. Also, didnt LV posess the animals until they woudl die. Ginny was released before she died.

[WoodenCoyote]

Ginny hasn't shown any signs of fatigue or premature aging yet, so I doubt it. I think we have to keep in mind that it was Tom who possesed her, not Voldemort himself. There's a major difference in power and potency.
Still, it's an interesting question.

[Madam Poppy]

My guess is that Ginny and Harry's lives are not shortened. Voldemort was in Ginny for a long time but not continuely; maybe that makes a difference and also he was only in Harry for a couple of minutes. Also, we haven't seen any lasting damage on Ginny. What do you think?

[skittles2]

Ya, Voldy possessed the animals until they died, Ginny was released before she died and Harry was only possessed for a short time.

[Rosie Cotton]

True, but how much were the animals' lives shortened? The other thing that I wonder about though is, if their lives were shortened, how would he posess them until they died and that's what shortened their lives, that doesn't really make sense to me. Could someone elaborate for my slow mind. :lol: (And people call me smart)

[HeRmIoNe_14]

I think Voldemort meant that when he possesed their bodies, they died in a short while, but he also said that the animal's bodies were not built to posess, so I think that as Harry and Ginny are humans they lives were not shortened at all

[enthusiast]

Good question, I suppose we will have to wait and see if that becomes an issue for humans as well as small mammals.

Sarah

[Madam Poppy]

Well I don't have the book with me right now but I always thought Voldemort stayed in the animals until right before they died and then jumped out and found a new animal to drain until it got close to death and then jumped out again. I'm not sure how long he actually wondered in spirit form without being in some animals body.
When he was trying to drain Ginny he was trying and needed to drain her life all the way where he could be completely alive. When Riddle's memory was destroyed Ginny got her life and strength back.

[Rosie Cotton]

This just dawned on me! He also said that the animals didn't have enough magical ability to do anything. Therefore, maybe since Harry and Ginny both have magical abilities, it didn't hurt them physically. (It did emotionally) Perhaps if Voldemort posessed a muggle, it would drain their life as well. Or do you all think I'm an absolute maniac?

[Madam Poppy]

Also, (sorry if I'm talking too much) I suppose it makes some difference that Voldemort has a body now. Maybe it doesn't drain as much life. of course it did hurt Harry though but I suppose Voldemort could have made it hurt.

I think before Voldemort got his body back he had to feed off another human being. For a while he feed off that Defense against the dark arts teacher (can't spell his name)and that teacher had to live off unicorn blood to support him and Voldemort. I think a similar thing was happening with Ginny but not exactly the same Riddle had to gain power through Ginny's fears before he could drain her life.

I don't think that you are a maniac unless you are an HP maniac and that is a very good thing. I don't think it's the magical abilitles that protect them though I think it just depends if Voldemort needs life or not.

[Lepus]

Well it did shorten Ginny's life, she was dying when she was 12 without anything wrong with her other than Tom posessing her. So with that it sort of makes you assume (well me assume) that maybehe means while he posesses them it shortens their life, and because animals were not meant to posses, they die afterwards because they don't have the "right stuff" to heal themselves. Humans were "meant" to posess (by that I mean posession was made for humans) so humans can "get over it" (heal) physically at least, not mentioning the emotional extra's.

[Rosie Cotton]

Good thoughts Lepus. Just one problem. Wasn't Ginny dying because Tom Riddle was intentionally draining her of life?

[SquibOnline]

Probably different for humans

[Derf2005]

I hear you, dude. As Groovy Dumbledore would say, just go with the freaking flow.

ANYWAY, I think no. Ginny wasn't ACTUALLY being possesed by Voldemort, just a memory. And Harry was being possesed by Voldemort when he was back to full health, and it was threw dreams, so I don't think so.

I think the ACTUAL, PHYSICAL Voldemort that posseses things, and not a memory, or in a dream.

[crystal_joy]

I think there is a difference between the Vapormort, Memory-Riddle, and Voldemort body possessing. Vapormort was actually living off the animals that he possesed and Quirrell for that matter... Memory-Riddle was draining Ginny of her life force, which obviously was replenished, and Voldemort was possessing people, but I don't think he was actually using them to survive.

Vapormort needed these bodies to live, and I imagine that if both souls were strugling for life in one body - the body would be worn down by the time Vapormort left.

Memory-Riddle wasn't actually in Ginny's body. But he was feeding off her like a leech.

And like I said before, I don't think Voldemort was actually draining Harry of life.
-----------------------------------

Does that make sense?

[rotsiepots]

Good thoughts Lepus. Just one problem. Wasn't Ginny dying because Tom Riddle was intentionally draining her of life?
I think the Ginny/Tom Riddle possession is slightly different to the Voldemort/animal possession. With regards to the former, it's slightly more complex -- Ginny poured out her soul, voluntarily, into Tom Riddle making him strong enough to possess her. It was more of a reciprocal possession, I suppose. She was "dying" in the Chamber because she had poured out too much of her soul into Tom, not because he was possessing her. There just wasn't enough of her "life force" to sustain both of their existences.

I don't think this would influence her life expectancy, because, presumably, when Tom Riddle was destroyed Ginny regained all of her strength back. Even when Tom Riddle was possessing her it was probably more "organic" than your usual possession because he was possessing her using her own life force. Make sense? :D

With regards to the Harry/Voldemort possession in OotP, I think this is a more traditional type of possession. Harry felt a "pain beyond imagining" and a "pain beyond endurance". It's quite possible he would have died if Voldemort had possessed him for much longer, but Harry's thoughts of Sirius drove Voldemort out.

I don't think this will effect Harry's long-term life expectancy. Possession poses more of an immediate threat to life, than a long-term one.

[crystal_joy]

With regards to the Harry/Voldemort possession in OotP, I think this is a more traditional type of possession. Harry felt a "pain beyond imagining" and a "pain beyond endurance". It's quite possible he would have died if Voldemort had possessed him for much longer, but Harry's thoughts of Sirius drove Voldemort out.

I thought the reason Harry was in pain was because it was Voldemort possessing him... because of their connection. Was it the actual possession that caused the pain?

[rotsiepots]

Well, I can't imagine possession is a particularly pleasant experience, no matter who is possessing you.

Voldemort was effectively shoving his "life force" into a restricted area (ie Harry's body), causing it to compete not only with Harry's own soul, but also with the resources in Harry's body. Harry and Voldemort are both incredibly powerful wizards, which probably further complicates matters.

The connection between Harry and Voldemort probably made things more unpleasant, but I daresay possession is always a painful, life-draining experience.

[crystal_joy]

rotsiepots -

Well, I never thought of it that way, it makes alot of sense... thank you.

[Rosie Cotton]

And Harry was being possesed by Voldemort when he was back to full health, and it was threw dreams, so I don't think so.


In the MoM, right after the DoM incident, Harry was literally posessed. His body was taken over by Voldemort.

[goonie27]

Sorry but I'm new here kind of what is MoM and DoM?

[crystal_joy]

Sorry but I'm new here kind of what is MoM and DoM?

MoM = Ministry of Magic or Minister of Magic

DoM = Department of Misteries

[Quibbler Reader]

Remember that Voldy possesed Quirrel in the first novel for thwe whoel school year (and who knows how long before). and he didn't show any signs of aging. There might be different rules applying to animals and people. Then again, maybe the aging effect is only a few years. Avg small animal lives ony a few years, and a man of age 25 and 30 doesn;t look all that different.

[Derf2005]

He was possesed, for real? Man, I should re-read OotP, instead of GoF....

[Rosie Cotton]

He was possesed, for real? Man, I should re-read OotP, instead of GoF....

Yup. On page 817 US softback. :)

[tarachristwen]

probably not cos she was possessed by his younger self,tom not lord voldemort...
but still... ?

[agpotter]

Yeah, I think she was more possessed by his spirit, or his memory, and for brief periods of time... With the animals, he was actually LIVING in them, which he never did with Ginny (or Harry, for that matter). I think there would be more evident results now if Ginny had been affected in that way.

[Rosie Cotton]

Wasn't he technically living inside Harry at the end of OotP, or did I interpret that wrong. Have I been tainted by Return to Witch Mountain?

[rotsiepots]

Remember that Voldy possesed Quirrel in the first novel for thwe whoel school year (and who knows how long before). and he didn't show any signs of aging. There might be different rules applying to animals and people. Then again, maybe the aging effect is only a few years. Avg small animal lives ony a few years, and a man of age 25 and 30 doesn;t look all that different.
I think Quirrell's "possession" was more of a cohabitation than anything else. I think it's unlikely that a standard possession involves the possessor's head being visible at all times. I doubt Voldemort's face protruded from Harry's skull, for example, in the Ministry of Magic.

I don't think Voldemort possessed Quirrell because he couldn't control him. Harry was made to speak by Voldemort -- ie Voldemort made him do something against his will --, but Voldemort had to instruct Quirrell what to do.

[crystal_joy]

Remember that Voldy possesed Quirrel in the first novel for thwe whoel school year (and who knows how long before). and he didn't show any signs of aging. There might be different rules applying to animals and people. Then again, maybe the aging effect is only a few years. Avg small animal lives ony a few years, and a man of age 25 and 30 doesn;t look all that different.

But when Voldemort left his body, Quirrell died... I don't think the cohabitation of a body physically ages the body - I think it is the force of two beings attepmting to remain alive, in a vessel made for one, that probably drains the body's life force to the point of death. I would say Quirrell died from exhaustion.

[Rosie Cotton]

Wait didn't Quirrel die because Harry touched him?

[HarryPotter]

I think it didn't really shorten their lives... the life of a possessed being shortens because the intruder feeds on the life of the other... like a virus or a parasit, you don't live unless you have a support from where extract the energy...

With Ginny's case, it was a memory in a book... once the diary was destroyed, her life was restored (She was dieing, so there you have how Tom was feeding in her, sucking her life out like a vampire), in Harry's case it was not that kind of possession... it was more of an intrusion on his thoughts, on his mind, but not a true possession...

[crystal_joy]

Wait didn't Quirrel die because Harry touched him?

I don't have the exact quote but Dumbledore told Harry that Voldemort exited Quirrell's body and left him for dead.

[mugglenetkid2]

I think neither of them lost any time in the clocks of their lives. Hermione probably did though. You know, in book 5 when Dolohov cursed her?

[Rosie Cotton]

I think it didn't really shorten their lives... the life of a possessed being shortens because the intruder feeds on the life of the other... like a virus or a parasit, you don't live unless you have a support from where extract the energy...

With Ginny's case, it was a memory in a book... once the diary was destroyed, her life was restored (She was dieing, so there you have how Tom was feeding in her, sucking her life out like a vampire), in Harry's case it was not that kind of possession... it was more of an intrusion on his thoughts, on his mind, but not a true possession...

But Voldemort was residing in him, just as Voldemort had resided in Quirrel. I don't have my book with me, but it says something like "If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy." Then Harry thinks, at least Voldemort may die too. Do it Dumbledore. I don't have my book with me, as I said before.

[amberrose]

Does anyone know if there are any good editorials on mugglenet about this whole possession thing?

[Rosie Cotton]

I'll check. If not, I might think about doing some more research and writing one. It intrigues me.

[HarryPotter]

But Voldemort was residing in him, just as Voldemort had resided in Quirrel. I don't have my book with me, but it says something like "If death is nothing, Dumbledore, kill the boy." Then Harry thinks, at least Voldemort may die too. Do it Dumbledore. I don't have my book with me, as I said before.
No, they are very different cases... Voldemort was living on and thanks to Quirrel... with Harry's case Voldemort was a guest, he was not feeding on him, but only trespassing onto his mind

[Rosie Cotton]

Ok. I see.


c/o editorials- I skimmed through the archives and couldn't find one, but the featured article seems really interesting. :lol:

[mugglenetkid2]

You should read Underground Lake. It's so interesting. THE WHEELS ARE IN MOTION!!

[amberrose]

I'll check. If not, I might think about doing some more research and writing one. It intrigues me.

Yeah it intrigues me as well...I've already started writing a few things about Ginny's possession with the diary that you can take a look at if you do decide to write that editorial.

[Durandal]

Yes, Ginny will die early.

But she was only possessed for brief periods over 10 months or so, so how much her life is shortened by is open to debate in my opinion. But yes, I believe she will die early. Quirrell would have died early too if Harry had not killed him. Harry was only possessed for really short periods unless you count the "dreams" or visions he shares with Voldemort.

But in Harry's case I think you can really see how possession kills you, just look at how much pain he is in, then compare that to descriptions of lesser pains (like when his arm was broken) and you get an idea of how dangerous and painful possessions are (and why Voldemort does it. Possession does not drain his life force because of the magic he used to become "immortal", although immortality is a strange concept. If Voldy has a weakness that can be exploited, then he's not immortal, just immune to conventional ways of killing someone, such as death by possession, but not immune to memory charms for example.)

[Rosie Cotton]

Yeah it intrigues me as well...I've already started writing a few things about Ginny's possession with the diary that you can take a look at if you do decide to write that editorial.

I may take you up on that if I ever decide to write it.

[kingwidgit]

But yes, I believe she will die early. Quirrell would have died early too if Harry had not killed him.Quirrell would have died because, [1] he killed and then drank the blood of a unicorn, which carries a curse, a half-life. Or, [2] he would have died from Voldemort leaving his body, releasing him from possession.
Voldemort said that snakes were his preferred choice of animal to possess, but the possession greatly shortened the life-span of the snake. When he used the snakes--and Quirrell, these were voluntary possessions. When Riddle used Ginny, it was an involuntary possession, that she had no memory of. Also, it was Riddle, not a full-fledged evil Lord Voldemort, that did the possessing. So, I don't think that it will affect Ginny's life-span, as she would already be dead, Riddle having left her body.
As for Harry, again, it was an involuntary possession, but Harry clearly knew what was happening, and that to be possessed by Voldemort was literally killing him, but when Voldemort left Harry's body, Harry did not die from it, his heart saved him from Lord Voldemort. So, again, I don't think Harry's life-span would be shortened by that brief possession either.

[Rosie Cotton]

Yes, Ginny will die early.

But she was only possessed for brief periods over 10 months or so, so how much her life is shortened by is open to debate in my opinion. But yes, I believe she will die early. Quirrell would have died early too if Harry had not killed him. Harry was only possessed for really short periods unless you count the "dreams" or visions he shares with Voldemort.

But in Harry's case I think you can really see how possession kills you, just look at how much pain he is in, then compare that to descriptions of lesser pains (like when his arm was broken) and you get an idea of how dangerous and painful possessions are (and why Voldemort does it. Possession does not drain his life force because of the magic he used to become "immortal", although immortality is a strange concept. If Voldy has a weakness that can be exploited, then he's not immortal, just immune to conventional ways of killing someone, such as death by possession, but not immune to memory charms for example.)


Nicely stated opinion.

Another thing. A lot of people have been saying they haven't appered any older. Could it be that they don't AGE faster, but they simply die younger?

[amberrose]

I may take you up on that if I ever decide to write it.
Maybe I can help get you inspired.....
What I have is based mostly around this quote...
"Ginny poured her soul into me, and her soul happened to be exactly what I wanted. I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of her deepest fears, her darkest secrets. I grew powerful, far more powerful than little Miss Weasley. Powerful enough to start feeding Miss Weasley a few of my own secrets, to start pouring a little of my soul back into her..." Tom Riddle, Chamber of Secrets, Chapter 17 pg. 228 UK edition

[Rosie Cotton]

True. Very good. :) That may be the dire quote that we will need. It is sort of our explanation to CoS, and since there is a link between CoS and HBP, we should study it.

[amberrose]

yes...we should study this.....but will your hypothetical editorial be about Ginny's possession or about possession in general?

[Rosie Cotton]

I don't know. I'll have to think about it.

Anyways, back to a point I brought up, that never got recognized that I'd like to bring up again. Do you think that muggles are vulnerable to posession? If so, are they more vulnerable?

[amberrose]

I would assume that muggles would be far more vulnerable than wizards but I may be underestimating them...hmm. I suddenly got a strange mental image of Uncle Vernon grinning evily and grabbing Harry's wand to curse him...

[Rosie Cotton]

Yeah, but then again, maybe since Muggles don't know about magic and don't believe in magic, their minds are less open to possibilities and therefore less open to mind-hackers. Just a thought.

[amberrose]

Well, i suppose it could be argued that since Vernon and Petunia 'know' about magic in a broad sense that they would be susceptible to possession by Voldemort...however we know that Petunia is in some way related to Harry's protection so I doubt Voldemort could possess her. Vernon though.....I'm not sure what to think about him

(hehe..I just noticed that you and I joined on the same day...funny)

[strwznbrry]

But in Harry's case I think you can really see how possession kills you, just look at how much pain he is in, then compare that to descriptions of lesser pains (like when his arm was broken) and you get an idea of how dangerous and painful possessions are (and why Voldemort does it. Possession does not drain his life force because of the magic he used to become "immortal", although immortality is a strange concept. If Voldy has a weakness that can be exploited, then he's not immortal, just immune to conventional ways of killing someone, such as death by possession, but not immune to memory charms for example.)



I always thought the pain Harry felt while Voldemort was possessing him was not from the possession actually but more from the pain that is caused because he is so evil and Harry is so good. I don't know if I am explaining my point and making sense. I think that Harry feels all the bad thoughts and emotions rolling through Voldemort and this combined with the fact that Harry feels an overwhelming amount of love makes it painful for Harry to stand Voldemorts possession. I can't remember exactly what the scenario was but didn't Voldemort leave Harry's body because it pained him too much to stay in Harry's body so full of love.

I think I need to read that part of the book again.

As for the whole shortening of lives thing I agree with everyone who says that Ginny did not actually get possessed the same way the animals were so I don't believe she was physically affected.


Yeah, but then again, maybe since Muggles don't know about magic and don't believe in magic, their minds are less open to possibilities and therefore less open to mind-hackers. Just a thought.


This same argument could be used to say they are more vulnerable to possession. They are less aware it could happen therefore less able to fight it when it does happen.

[amberrose]

Can anyone tell me how to start a thread?

[Rosie Cotton]

Go to the forum you want and there should be a button that says new thread.

Be sure to search! Good luck kisses.


This same argument could be used to say they are more vulnerable to possession. They are less aware it could happen therefore less able to fight it when it does happen.

Very true. However, just to make opposition. I'm a mugwump on this issue.

[strwznbrry]

Yeah, but then again, maybe since Muggles don't know about magic and don't believe in magic, their minds are less open to possibilities and therefore less open to mind-hackers. Just a thought.

Another thought on this quote...

Who is to say that just because Muggles don't know magic doesn't truly exist means that they don't believe in it?

Just wondering...:)

[Durandal]

Very good, srtwznbrry, excellent interpretation. I agree with you, but I also think that part of that pain is caused by the fact that Harry resists so violently. Let's look at the imperius curse, which we have seen performed on Harry many times. Harry felt good and floaty until he started resisting, and the more he resisted the less blissful he felt. And he didn't feel pain as strongly when the curse was being performed. Possession may be similar, Voldemort's evil essence would have hurt Harry if he had gone along with being possessed, but it hurt Harry even more to throw it off.

Amberrose, Muggles would be far more vulnerable to possession I think, since our lifespans are so short compared to wizards. When I say that Ginny and Harry will die early, keep in mind that wizards don't die as soon as we do. I just figure that Harry and Ginny will only live to 180 instead of 190. Dumbledore is 150, and prof. Marchbanks is around 200 or so (and Marchbanks is the only one described as "old". Whenever Dumbledore is called old, it's usually followed with "old, but with great energy, bright twinkle in his eyes" and all that.) So Dumbledore is not quite one foot in the grave yet by wizard standards. But a Muggle lives to 80. So if possession shortens the victim's lifespan, then Muggles are in danger. Rats only live three years or so, so it's no wonder Voldemort drained the life-essence right out of them.

Kingwigit, yes, Voldemort was also doing some terrible things to Quirrel's body, another reason to avoid ever being possessed. I figure that's why he died the minute Voldemort left him (Voldemort has to be killed by Harry, but Quirrel is perfectly vulnerable to a Unicorn Blood overdose.) I know Quirrel volunteered, but I think that even if you volunteer there are still consequences to being possessed by anyone (consequences besides being forced to drink unicorn blood.) Also keep in mind that pain may vary from wizard to wizard. In real life you could take a group of people and shoot them all in the hand and you'd get a variety of reactions, from "What, I was shot? Oh, so I was... That's really messy..." to "Mommmmy!!!" So just because Ginny didn't feel pain didn't mean that she was not being harmed.

Mugglenetkid2, I think that all the injuries that the characters sustain will somehow affect them later. Just like what happens to our bodies in real life.

[strwznbrry]

Very good, srtwznbrry, excellent interpretation. I agree with you, but I also think that part of that pain is caused by the fact that Harry resists so violently. Let's look at the imperius curse, which we have seen performed on Harry many times. Harry felt good and floaty until he started resisting, and the more he resisted the less blissful he felt. And he didn't feel pain as strongly when the curse was being performed. Possession may be similar, Voldemort's evil essence would have hurt Harry if he had gone along with being possessed, but it hurt Harry even more to throw it off.

Thank you and do you know I never even linked those two things together. Harry resisting the curse and the possession. That makes me believe in my own thoughts even more. (that sounded a little funny:lol:)

Amberrose, Muggles would be far more vulnerable to possession I think, since our lifespans are so short compared to wizards. When I say that Ginny and Harry will die early, keep in mind that wizards don't die as soon as we do. I just figure that Harry and Ginny will only live to 180 instead of 190. Dumbledore is 150, and prof. Marchbanks is around 200 or so (and Marchbanks is the only one described as "old". Whenever Dumbledore is called old, it's usually followed with "old, but with great energy, bright twinkle in his eyes" and all that.) So Dumbledore is not quite one foot in the grave yet by wizard standards. But a Muggle lives to 80. So if possession shortens the victim's lifespan, then Muggles are in danger. Rats only live three years or so, so it's no wonder Voldemort drained the life-essence right out of them.

Mugglenetkid2, I think that all the injuries that the characters undergo will somehow affect them later. Just like what happens to our bodies in real life.

Going into what you just said couldn't you also use what Voldemort said about the possessing of snakes,
...for their bodies were ill-adapted to perform magic...
Maybe this holds the same with Muggles because they have no magical ability and while under a possession they are forced to perform magic and therefore their lives are shortened from the strain of it.

[Durandal]

Now THAT is an interesting possibility: could you use magic to make a Muggle do magic?

If so, then the magical ability of the possessor somehow gets transfered into the victim. Ginny was able to speak in Parseltongue to open the Chamber and control the Basilisk, so obviously possession does transfer magical skill as well. But how much control could be transfered? Maybe a possessed person can speak in Parseltongue, but would they be able to morph. If Tonks possessed Harry, could she make him change shape? That sounds like a bit of a stretch. But both Parseltongues and Metamorphmagi are born and not taught their skills, so the magics there work in similar ways. Could a possessed wizard be made to do spells that are more powerful than they can normally do, like Harry possessing Neville and making him cast a patronus. And what form would the patronus cast by Possessed Neville take?

[Rosie Cotton]

Durandal! Great observations. I don't know. Perhaps Ginny could speak in Parseltongue to open the chamber because she was born with the ability to speak in parseltongue when she was possessed. Did that make any sense?

I think Neville, if casting a patronus when possessed, would cast his own personal patronus. Just my thought though.

[victoriakrum]

voldemort was completely dependent on Quirrel; he was literally a part of him. harry and ginny were just controlled by his thoughts i thing, not his "body" or his actual soul (if he has one now).