Curses and Countercurses--How the Dolohov experience challenges the Voldemort story#2

[Emma]

Curses and Countercurses--How the Dolohov experience challenges the Voldemort story (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=20931)

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[whizbang121]

given what happened during Dolohov's second confrontation with Harry in the DoM (i.e. Dolohov used his favorite non-AK killer and Harry blocked most of it with a Protego shield with SERIOUS power behind it but received an injury that felt like "a blunt knife" scraping across his faceI think part of the problem with the protego is that it's described as a mild shield charm, though admittedly, Harry has gotten some serious mileage out of it. I believe it was the protego that Harry used to rebound Snape's legilimency charm on him.
and Dolohov didn't have to dodge because non of his curse reflected back at him) that the AK that Voldemort used on Harry, powerful though it undoubtedly was, did not cause the destruction of the house or rip Voldemort from his body, OR destroy his body.

That's another thing, Voldemort's body was destroyed by whatever hit him, Voldemort's AKs never do that. In the graveyard,Voldemort did say he was ripped from his body in great pain. But there's no mention of the condition of his body. Is there a description somewhere else? In fact, nobody's AKs do that but we have let's see, six concrete examples that prove that Voldemort's AKs don't do that when they hit living beings. In case you're wondering about my math--three Riddles (Grandma, Grandpa, and Tom Sr.), two Potters (James & Lily), and Frank Bryce makes six victims. The bodies are left unmarked. Now are we to suppose that a fraction of an AK (allbeit a considerable one) is more powerful and behaves differently than a full-fledged AK? Harry remembers a lot of green light. If Vodle did AK Harry first, perhaps the fact that Harry was "the one" and his mother had died to save him had the effect of fully rebounding the spell, which bounced back to Vodle who, ripped from his body did not die because one of his immortality spells kicked in which stored his life force and powers in a sowelo shaped rune that was plastered on the nearest living human being, Harry. I think what I'm saying is that perhaps the initial AK didn't damage Harry at all. Perhaps it was the immortality spell that kicked which is responsible for Harry's scar. What looks more likely is that the little piece of Dolohov's killing curse (Purple Slash Thingamajigger) that cut into Harry and felt like a blunt knife scraping across our hero's face is a parallel to the immensely more powerful bit of an AK that sliced into Harry's head with searing pain, leaving that scar and had such a deep impact that it transferred some of Voldemort's powers (Parseltongue) to Harry.This works, if the spell penetrated Harry's protection.

So the suggestion is that spell that Voldemort used on Harry was in some way a combination of the AK and the purple Dolohov?
2. People don't or refuse to understand any of the points I raised. I know that feeling. ;) Now, I know that you understand my position well, since we've debated this for (wow, is it more than six months--I'll have to check that). I think it'd probably help me if you explain to me again why it is that you don't agree with me, so that I can address the challenges directly and we can cover some new ground. How 'bout it?

Great idea. I'm convinced that the questions you've raised about the spells and their effects are very important. And we since have JKR mentioning that we should ask what Voldemort did to survive.

I'm just not sure about a combined spell as you seem to describe. Perhaps it wasn't the AK at all?

I wonder what spell Snape used in the Snape's Worst Memory scene that slashed James's cheek?
But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood.

Dolohov's purple spell is somehow even more terrifying, to me at least, than the AK. I'm guessing the AK is preferable because it supposedly can't be blocked and it looks as though Dolohov's can at least partly.

A couple of the reasons I like the "Harry strikes first" scenario is Aunt Petunia's concern that he'll blow up the house, and the idea that Voldemort's statement that Lily didn't have to die may simply mean that she got in front of the AK aimed at Harry. She died in his place, creating a bond similar to the life debt, that protected Harry from her murderer. But Voldemort wasn't aiming at her, so "she didn't have to die."

I don't know. Wild imagination, I guess.

Glad to see version two. :tu:

[Mugglelvr]

I think part of the problem with the protego is that it's described as a mild shield charm, though admittedly, Harry has gotten some serious mileage out of it. I believe it was the protego that Harry used to rebound Snape's legilimency charm on him. :

Protego can't be too mild of a shield charm. Bellatrix used it in the Department of Mysteries. I'd think if there were many stronger charms than Protego, she would have chosen one of those.

[jordmundt6]

I think the description of what the Protego charm is intended to do is accurate. Let me say that again--what it was intended to do. However, that doesn't put a ceiling on what the charm CAN do. In powerful hands, simple charms can accomplish powerful things.

1. In CoS--Snape used Expelliarmus, the little old Disarming Charm to fling Lockhart across a stage in the Great Hall and against a wall.

2. Dumbledore used a stunner to shatter the DADA prof's office door and propel Crouch Jr. against the wall of the office in GoF.

Simple spells doing amazing things in powerful hands. As for the Harry examples:

1. You're right Whiz, he did use Protego to force Snape's mind-probe--Legilimens--back into Snape's own head.

2. Harry's Stunner in the duel against Bellatrix was strong enough to lop off the ear of the stone House Elf. To put this in perspective, recall that in the graveyard when Harry made a run for it, three different Stunners from three different Death Eaters combined to crack the corner off a tombstone (was that an angel's wing they all collided with?). Bellatrix and Voldemort are the only Death Eaters who can consistently use simple spells to destroy stone objects sheielding their opponents. This puts Harry in elite company, I'd say.

Now then--as to your other question about Voldemort's body. I combined Voldemort's very interesting explanation from "The Death Eaters" in GoF (I think that's what the Chapter was called between his re-emergence and the duel) and Hagrid's explanation from "The Keeper of the Keys" in SS/PS. There are several interesting things about these accounts. I'll focus on the two that are pertinent to your question and move on to the third to show how things might be even more interesting and confusing than they appear at first glance.

You touched on the first interesting factoid. Voldemort is the only aware eyewitness from the eye of the storm. He said that he was "ripped from [his] body" and experienced "pain beyond pain." His spirit was ripped right out of his physical body by whatever hit him. This leads to another interesting admission--Voldemort claims to have been "less than the meanest ghost" during his decade of agony searching alone for ways to come back. So let's put these together shall we?

1. Powerful magic strikes Voldemort as a result of his attempt to kill Harry.

2. The magic (whatever it is) is so strong that it "rips" Voldemort's spirit out of his body.

3. The spirit that is left after the magic has dissipated is "less than the meanest ghost." This means that Voldemort ended up being a nameless lower form of parasitic spirit. He was actually in worse shape than he would have been in if he'd just died and chosen not to "move on" as the Bloody Baron chose so many centuries ago. What does that mean? Well, it means that whatever struck Voldemort attacked both his body and his spirit. He was left worse than a ghost, worse than dead. Furthermore, he survived, but in his state Dumbledore considered him "not...truly alive." This state, whatever it was, was worse than death. Voldemort had to force himself to exist, second by agonizing second, something ghosts do not have to do.

But maybe this is merely his reaction to being torn away from his body so violently, maybe if he were reunited with the physical form he left he would be his old self.

Well, that's where it gets interesting.

See, back in SS "Keeper of the Keys" Hagrid told Harry and the rest of us that Voldemort "disappeared." "Happened the same night he couldn't kill you [Harry]. Makes ye even more famous." Everybody knows the drill with AKs. They hit victims, the victims are killed instantly, the bodies are left completely unmarked apart from the fact that they're--well--dead. That's what happened to the Riddles, Frank Bryce, Cedric Diggory and that guinea-pig spider from Crouch Jr.'s class on Unforgivables. So, if Voldemort got hit by his own AK, his body should have been right there in the remains of the house, unmarked unless some rubble fell on it, a testament to Lily's superb protection. But that's NOT how it happened. Voldemort's body just up and vanished. It disappeared without a trace. The fact that there was no body led some people to speculate that Voldemort disappeared and went into hiding (to me this screams "Death Eater rationalization!"). So, can an AK make the victim's body disappear? No. We know that that doesn't happen. Furthermore, Voldemort had to have his body reconstituted by Dark Magic, not retrieved.

See what I mean, combining the facts from those two accounts is very very interesting, and just a tad enlightening because it gives us insight into the magic that struck Voldemort on that Halloween night.

Whatever it was, it had the capacity to attack both body and spirit. If Voldemort's immortality experiments saved him, it appears that what they did is spare his spirit from total obliteration. And that gives us a clue about what has to happen for Voldemort to be stopped. He has to be utterly wiped off the face of the earth, body and spirit. He's already come back from worse than a ghost's fate to full power. Leaving him as a ghost is no way to ensure safety.

I'll save my further discussion of how Voldemort changes his tune drastically from year 1 to year 4 for another time.

[whizbang121]

Whatever it was, it had the capacity to attack both body and spirit. If Voldemort's immortality experiments saved him, it appears that what they did is spare his spirit from total obliteration. And that gives us a clue about what has to happen for Voldemort to be stopped. He has to be utterly wiped off the face of the earth, body and spirit. He's already come back from worse than a ghost's fate to full power. Leaving him as a ghost is no way to ensure safety. This all makes sense if we are assuming that the only magic that hit him was his rebounded AK. Even he didn't know which of his immortality charms worked. It could have been this immortality response that destroyed the body, (if it was destroyed) and separated his consciousness from his powers, rather than the AK. Or it could be that he was wrong about the rebounded spell. Maybe Harry initiated a strike that had an entirely different effect. It's even possible that if the body was destroyed, it blew up with the house.

Rumor has it that JKR says that Wormtail hid Voldemorts robes and wand. Perhaps he took the body, too? (Question is, if he was there before anyone else and had to opportunity to do this, why didn't he take Harry, too?)

At the moment, my preferred guess, and it is a guess, is that it was the unique activity of the unknown immortality spell that kicked into action when either his AK rebounded or Harry struck out at him.

I'll save my further discussion of how Voldemort changes his tune drastically from year 1 to year 4 for another time.

[whizbang121]

Hellooooooo?

[SnapeLova]

I think the description of what the Protego charm is intended to do is accurate. Let me say that again--what it was intended to do. However, that doesn't put a ceiling on what the charm CAN do. In powerful hands, simple charms can accomplish powerful things.

1. In CoS--Snape used Expelliarmus, the little old Disarming Charm to fling Lockhart across a stage in the Great Hall and against a wall.

.

i agree...in poa when snape comes into the ss he uses expelliarmus to dewand sirius and harry uses it to knock snape out....so i think a skilled wizard can control the force to a small one or a large one.

[whizbang121]

i agree...in poa when snape comes into the ss he uses expelliarmus to dewand sirius and harry uses it to knock snape out....so i think a skilled wizard can control the force to a small one or a large one.
While I agree with the original point, that may be a poor example. In the book, Snape was knocked to the next time zone because Harry, Ron and Hermione all hit him simultaneously.

[Mugglelvr]

1. In CoS--Snape used Expelliarmus, the little old Disarming Charm to fling Lockhart across a stage in the Great Hall and against a wall.

Expelliarmus seems to be one of those charms that have a power control on them. Snape used it on Lockhart to great effect, and Harry, Hermione and Ron ganged up on Snape in the Shrieking Shack and knocked him out completely. In the DA lessons, everyone who used it simply shot their opponents wands out of their hands. It seems the strength of the charm depends on the intent of the caster.

Hellooooooo?
whizbang121 nice way to bring life back into a thread :)