CoSForums Archive - Crouch buried in Hagrid's garden

Aoife Diggle

January 26th, 2003, 6:47 pm

I wondered about that aswell. I think it would be pretty nasty to just leave it there, but they found out a month after it had been buried so Hagird could have re-dug the place and throw it out or anything like that. Also he hasn't got any imediate family left and wasn't all that popular at the Ministery (expect for Percy of course) so I'm not sure how many people would demand a proper funeral for him.

Virtuousdream

January 26th, 2003, 6:51 pm

Yes but from my impression of wizards and witches, they all seem to be very respectful.

I'm sure that from the services that Crouch has delivered to the minestry, they will feel it's their duty to give him a send-off (even though he technically brought back voldie).

Besides, they'd have Percy to face if they didn't?!

arabella_black

January 26th, 2003, 7:28 pm

That is the most disturbing thought ever. they must have dug him up and gave him a proper send off.

MadMagic

January 26th, 2003, 7:51 pm

I certainly hope the dug him up and un-transfigured him. Then again, with all that was going on that night nobody seemed particularly concerned with the fact that a high anking ministry official had been burried in Hagrids garden. If nobody did anything about it I'm sure if/when Percy hears about it he will come take care of the bone...Maybe he will keep the bone and make a shrine to Mr. Crouch in his room or something...Then again, maybe not.

nimbus2006

January 26th, 2003, 7:57 pm

If it happened a month before anyone found out, and Crouch Sr. really did become a bone, then he would have most likely bio-degraded already, and become part of the nutrients of the earth. However, if he was a transfiguration, would the bone really deteriorate.. or would it stay preserved as he is human?

MadMagic

January 26th, 2003, 8:00 pm

I don't think that a bone would bio-degrade. I mean after millions of years dinosaur bones and such things are still being discovered fully in tact. Skeletons usually last for a pretty long time, and definately longer than a month.

Inkwolf

January 26th, 2003, 9:51 pm

I hate to rake up an old debate, but there HAS been some discussion over whether the same spell that restored Voldemort's body to his soul might restore li'l Barty's soul to his body....all the ingredients are available--bone of the father (currently under discussion here), willing servant (Winky) and li'l Barty himself pointed out how Voldemort's life parallelled his own.

Now they just need blood of an enemy....and since there's nothing he hates more than a Death Eater who walked free, Voldemort has that in spades. ;D

So, if big Barty's bone is missing....we have to worry about who might have it.

Ashkins

January 26th, 2003, 9:58 pm

Barty's soul was sucked out do you really think the Dementors would freely release it so he can be restored?

Voldemort had his soul intact and just needed a body.

*feels a little odd for the way that sounds* lol

TheChaser

January 26th, 2003, 10:05 pm

Originally posted by Ashkins
Barty's soul was sucked out do you really think the Dementors would freely release it so he can be restored?

Can the dementors do that? I mean, it doesn't seem likely. But, even if they could, I would highly doubt that they would. Once your soul's gone, it ain't coming back.

Virtuousdream

January 26th, 2003, 10:10 pm

ahh, but don't forget, the dementors will return to voldie, they'll give up the soul for him!

Inkwolf

January 26th, 2003, 10:14 pm

But do the dementors destroy the soul, or just absorb it? With the right, powerful magic, is it beyond belief that a soul could be reclaimed from the Dementor?

Ashkins

January 26th, 2003, 10:23 pm

It possibly could. And Barty turning dad into a bone could be forshadowing.

Virtuousdream

January 26th, 2003, 10:26 pm

to know that, I think we need to know what a dementor is!

They are not mentioned in Fantastic Beasts and where to find them, which suggests they are 'beings'.

Lupin says that harry fears fear itself (he sees a dementor boggart), which means that they are metaphorical?

But where do they come from?
Ive read theories that they originate from a lethifold (fantastic beast & where to find them) but i dont know.

I think though, if something can take something, then it can give it back?

But then if that is correct, what about death?
Voldie took people's lives, he says to harry in the film philosophers stone that he can give him his parents back, so perhaps they can be brought back by voldie alone?

Yet dumbledore says no spell can re-awaken the dead :|

We need to know more about dementors i think.

Ashkins

January 26th, 2003, 10:34 pm

Aren't human souls food for the Dementor?

Virtuousdream

January 26th, 2003, 10:38 pm

yes, but a mega rare treat....

a bit like a trip to the ritz for a 7 course meal hehe

if you can throw up the food, why cant they throw up a soul?!

Weatherby

January 26th, 2003, 10:43 pm

I can see Fang digging him up and chomping on it.
Then he can fetch it to Hagrid.
"Look at this Hagrid. Do you think this came off a chicken or something?" - Filch
"Fang must have dug it up from the fence.." - Hagrid
"Hagrid..this is a femur bone" - Filch
"So it's a femur bone.." - Hagrid
"So a femur has to be a human thigh bone Hagrid.. Hagrid.. this is Crouch!" - Filch
They both scream.
Sorry I've seen 'The 'Burbs' one too many times.

Virtuousdream

January 26th, 2003, 10:47 pm

hehe...

i do think somehow fang will have had it.
And i think it's very sad. I always felt sorry for crouch senior, even after i knew what he did. He was only doing it out of the love for his wife

Bixie

January 26th, 2003, 11:14 pm

"if you can throw up the food, why cant they throw up a soul?!"

Yeh, but you can only throw up food for a short time after eating it, try it sometime! (on the other hand don't)

When Voldie gets to the dementors I think Barty Jnr's soul will probably have passed the point of no return.

fuzzi95

January 26th, 2003, 11:34 pm

percy will take back the bone and probably start The Barty Crouych Liberation Front......No JK Jk Jk!!!!!

I do think that Crouch may turn up on the marauders map...ghosts are dead and they appear!

Virtuousdream

January 26th, 2003, 11:36 pm

but crouch isnt a ghost, he's a corpse. slightly different thing...

fuzzi95

January 26th, 2003, 11:44 pm

actually he's a bone, and bones don't deteriorate as fast as flesh....he's still an object, and maybe objects still show up no matter what...even if they aren't alive

Virtuousdream

January 27th, 2003, 12:08 am

yes, though i was making the point he wasnt a ghost.

i think the map shows alive people. We could be having dead owls and cats of students showing up otherwise!

(i wonder if any pets did die at hogwarts and what happened to them!)

fuzzi95

January 27th, 2003, 12:09 am

good point, you're right. But then where is he? Maybe rita skeeter took him when she was "buzzing around the school".

Virtuousdream

January 27th, 2003, 12:13 am

hmm, a beetle couldnt really carry a bone would it? and it would be too risky for her to turn back to human.

anyway, hermione caught her, and i dont think she heard about the bone bit!

fuzzi95

January 27th, 2003, 12:21 am

ya, but it would be bad if she saw it and told the papers after her time of silence was up. Do you think she'll break her promise to hermione?

EvilMeghan

January 27th, 2003, 2:37 am

Maybe everyone forgot about the bone in all the confusion...I know I did :D If Rita breaks her promise to Hermione, Hermione will report her to the MoM and then Rita will be in MAJOR trouble *very happy at that though*

DarkRa

January 27th, 2003, 5:58 pm

Em.. I'll go back to Couch jr soul thing... I really don't think that the Dementor can give a soul back. Since it's his food will be like throwing up. And I don't think that you can reuse the sandwich I just ate even if I give it back. :eyebrows:

Virtuousdream

January 27th, 2003, 6:05 pm

but soul is slightly different. They are also one of the most important allies to voldie, he would be able to give them many more souls if they can give back crouch's soul.

Legolas

January 27th, 2003, 6:28 pm

I think it is totally impossible for a dementor to give a soul back because no doubt when Voldie was strong the dementors 'kissed' :smooch: lots of innocent people. Therefore if there was a way for them to give the soul backs the ministry would have either made them do it or killed them

Virtuousdream

January 27th, 2003, 6:33 pm

ahh, but what if ancient magic could do it?

i get the impression ancient magic can only be performed by VERY powerful wizards. Dumbledore has been the only one mentioned who can do htis type of magic. He himself has been pretty obvious in making everyone know hoe he hates the dementors. I think he avoids them at all costs.

But then again, why?
Does he too feel like harry and fear fear the most when dementors approach?

Legolas

January 27th, 2003, 6:42 pm

I don't think he is scared of the dementors because as he is so powerful he can very easily use expecto partonum to make them go away at the Quiddich match.

I think that Dumbledore just has a very strong sense of right and wrong and will stand up for whatever he believes. Therefore as he believes it is wrong to use the dementors he will as far as possible have nothing to with him or with 'his' school.

Virtuousdream

January 27th, 2003, 6:45 pm

I think there is a deeper reason than that thugh...what it is, i don't know!

This Crouch thing is bugging me...

I really hope they did do a funeral. It was odd that it was never menioned. I think again, we will find out a lot more things about it in book 5.

144 days :D

Legolas

January 27th, 2003, 6:47 pm

Would Crouch's body shown up on the Maruders Map even though he was dead and tranfigured.

Virtuousdream

January 27th, 2003, 6:52 pm

no, i dont think so, because he is alive.

I said a page back i think, that if that happened, we would be seeing dead pets names show up on their graves!

fuzzi95

January 27th, 2003, 10:23 pm

yes, but thenmaybe he will become a ghost because he's soo darn unhappy!!

Virtuousdream

January 27th, 2003, 10:29 pm

i dont htink thats why people become ghosts when they die.
I think they become ghosts if they have been killed or die of natural causes. Notice that anyone who has ever been killed under a spell, has not become a ghost that we know of yet.
Moaning Mrytle was killed by a magical creature, NOT a spell, and she is a ghost.
If my theory is partly correct (i dont say thats all it is), then crouch will not become a ghost!

fuzzi95

January 27th, 2003, 10:43 pm

But did crouch jr kill his father using magic, and dying from the stare isn't exactly what some would say is natural?

JoFaye

January 27th, 2003, 10:58 pm

I don't think they'll leave poor Mr. Crouch buried in Hagrid's yard. Surely they will give him a proper wizard send off. I also believe that once a Dementor sucks your soul that's all she wrote. No take backs or trade offs. You are just soulless.

fuzzi95

January 27th, 2003, 11:02 pm

But still, how did crouchy wouchy jr kill his dad?

created_to_worship

January 28th, 2003, 4:20 am

Deep thoughts, these are.

Deep....

and MORBID... :)

hehe.

~* http://www.geocities.com/hands_lifted_high *~

MadMagic

January 28th, 2003, 4:37 am

I would imagine that Crouch jr. was not above using avada kedavra to kill his dad. And I am sure that once they realized where Crouch's "bone" was they would burry him properly and put some kind of notice in the paper that he died.
This is kind of related, but they hopefully had some service for Bertha Jorkins too. That way the ministry could sort out all of the their "missing people" and try to re-establish the credibility they lost with the disappearance of Bertha.

fuzzi95

January 28th, 2003, 4:55 am

so are u saying that crouch jr didn't kill him with avad kadavra, because he could have just blown him up...no wait, too messy!

dorcasderr

January 28th, 2003, 5:08 am

I think MadMagic meant that Barty Jr DID use the Avada Kedavra curse on his father. Being "not above" using something means that you won't let anything such as conscience get in the way of your doing what you have in mind.

fuzzi95

January 28th, 2003, 5:13 am

yes, but was crouch jr that advanced in magic? I mean, he was young when he was taken away to azkaban and i don't think his magic got any stronger from then on. If that's the case, did crouch jr go to hogwarts?

Charmed

January 28th, 2003, 6:08 am

I really hope that they gave Crouch Snr a proper funeral. No matter what somebody is like I still believe they deserve a proper send-off.
They just have to make sure that the wrong people know where he is buried.

DarkRa

January 28th, 2003, 3:45 pm

Crouch Jr was a Hogwarts student, a prefect as a matter of fact (He had 12 OWLs). And I think since he was capable of doing Crucio (Neville's parents) I see no reason for not knowing the Killing Curse as well.

fuzzi95

January 28th, 2003, 11:54 pm

yes but did he do crucio or was it the others, either way it doesn't matter musc. i just wanna knoiw what happened to crouch sr.

fuzzi95

January 29th, 2003, 9:56 pm

OK, my friend said that crouch was probably taken away by dumbledore, and that he kept it for certain reasons. I don't know why?

I also think it's very ironic that he was turned into a bone, because next thing you know....voldemort is taking the BONE of his father. I bet crouch has another kid or something and well....nah probably not, i guess i just like to ramble!!!!!!

Virtuousdream

January 29th, 2003, 10:07 pm

you can see our theories to that above thought on the first page :)

Also, fuzzi95, a basalisk still didnt murder mrytle from a spell, which is what i differenciate the ghosts from the non-ghosts from.

fuzzi95

January 29th, 2003, 10:12 pm

i know, but that's something that could only happen in the wizarding world.....right? And if the hogwarts ghosts werent killed by magic, how did peeves die? did he die of insanity, cause u can't see where he was hurt or anything so was he poisened???

Virtuousdream

January 29th, 2003, 10:28 pm

but you cant see how the fat frier died, you cant see how professor binns died, you cant see how the grey lady died.

We do not know how they died, EXCEPT for professer binns, he died of old age. What if peeves had a heart attack or stroke - along those lines, we wouldn't be able to visibly see what killed him?

fuzzi95

January 29th, 2003, 10:34 pm

so then your theory of natural causes may be wrong???? And, I wouldn't say what happened to moaning myrtle was natural! It couldn't happen without some sort of fantasy or magic!!!

Virtuousdream

January 29th, 2003, 10:48 pm

i think you're confused...

My theory is that people who die in other ways apart from spells, will become ghosts.

All the people we know about who have been killed by avada kedavra have not become ghosts.

Moaning Mrytle - she will killed my a magical beast, yet NOT A SPELL!
Prof Binns - old age
Nearly headless nick - beheadment

As for the other ghosts, I do not know. Yet as the bloody baron is bloody, it suggests a spell wasn't involved, and as The fat friar would not usually be involved in magic (being a monk/friar), then i do not think he was killed by a spell.

All I am doing is looking at the people who's cause of deaths we know.

gred&forge4ever

January 30th, 2003, 1:12 am

A couple thought on this thread:

1. Could the Bone of Crouch Sr, BE sransfigured back into his body? We know that A. one can transfigure living things into non-living things( animal into a goblet) and that B. one can transfigure living things into lving things I.e Draco the bouncing ferret:lol:. Thirdly C. we know that non-living things can be transformed into living things(Cedric transfiguring the rock into a dog). BUT we DON"T know if FORMERLY living things(Crocuh's bone) can be transfigured into other formerly living things. Understand? I think that once a living thing is dead that transfiguration is no longer possilbe. Can you tell that I teach life sciences :lol:

2. I think that Dumbledore took the bone. Either for a proper service or to stop the evil ones from using it.

fuzzi95

January 30th, 2003, 5:08 am

ya, i think dumbledore took it too!!!!

dumbleedore

January 30th, 2003, 1:06 pm

Originally posted by fuzzi95
how did peeves die?

Peeves is a poltergiest, not a ghost. I believe they are different.

fuzzi95

January 31st, 2003, 1:07 am

so then what's a poltergeist?

fuzzi95

January 31st, 2003, 1:42 am

wait a minute, what if they forgot that crouch was buried in hagrids garden...doesn't dumbledore have a lot on his mind? I bet winky will get to keep it, and she and dobby will take care of it, and dobby will put sox on the bone! OK, Sorry thats scary!

How do i get to second year?

fuzzi95

January 31st, 2003, 2:07 am

What if crouch jr never killed crouch senior, and it was a last attempt to go against voldemort? But why would he do that?

fuzzi95

January 31st, 2003, 10:50 pm

I was just wondering about it......any thoguts?

fuzzi95

February 1st, 2003, 8:10 pm

Ok no one is no longer posting here....what if we get back to the subject of the dementors throwing barty jrs soull up, and putting it in barty srs body--bone--? That is a sick thought!

fuzzi95

March 23rd, 2003, 7:58 pm

Well I have had a new thought!!! When Dumbledore told McGonagall-I think it was her- to get Sirius in the pumkin patch, Sirius was a dog,right? And the bone that was Barty Crouch Sr. was buried there, right? So...Dogs like bones, he was hungry, you do the Math!

miri

March 23rd, 2003, 8:18 pm

DarkRa - do you chew your food properly then? ;)
If dementors don't chew (I can't see them slurping either...) could they spew a whole soul?

I do think this analogy falls down though - we need to put food in our mouths to eat it. They can siphon off our happiness at a distance.

I don't know if Fang will have gnawed on the bone... it's possible... Btw, why don't we ever see Hagrid take Fluffy for *walkies*? Why can't Fluffy have the bone?

Edit - fuzzi - yeah, Snuffles is another dog worthy of a nice big bone!

fuzzi95

March 23rd, 2003, 8:33 pm

Well,it's just too much of a coincidence!!!! He was in the pumpkin patch as a dog, and Crouch just happened to be there as a bone...Well, Sirius had no problem knawing on the chicken bone Harry gave him! He may have been hungry for a bone!?

fuzzi95

March 31st, 2003, 2:49 am

DID CROUCH GET EATEN BY SIRIUS????

delemtri

March 31st, 2003, 2:53 am

What?! What!? What?!?!?!?

Potter80

March 31st, 2003, 4:22 am

A poltergeist is more mischievious. I think I have heard of them being a nasty image left on the world.

fuzzi95

April 1st, 2003, 6:30 am

It makes sense. Dumbledore said that Sirius was waiting in Hagrid's front garden...crouch was buried there...you think about it. Dogs eat bones! He was STARVING!!!

aes

April 1st, 2003, 6:44 am

Pretty sure Potter80's right. Poltergeists ARE ghosts, only they are the ghosts that stay behind and haunt, make noises, play tricks, etc. Well, if you believe in ghosts. ;)

As for the theory of Crouch being eaten as a bone. I don't think I can sum it up better than delemtri....
What?! What!? What?!?!?!?

It's silly. :p

-Colin

fuzzi95

April 2nd, 2003, 12:07 am

Ugh, just read the part. There's just too much emphasis on certain parts of it!

EvilMeghan

April 2nd, 2003, 9:29 pm

There's only like 2 days between when Crouch Jr. reveals what happened to his father and when the book ends. So they probably didn't do anything, such as digging up the bone or holding services, yet. It would either happen over the summer, or (depending on when the book starts) at the beginning of book 5.

Barbara Kennedy

April 2nd, 2003, 10:02 pm

they were informed that Crouch sr. was buried in the garden near Hagrids cabin. I do not see Dumbledore forgetting such a thing. I'm sure proper arrangements were made, behind the scenes, to give Mr. Bartemius Crouch Senior a decent burial. They may have waited until Winky was in a better condition so she could attend his funeral. It is the kind touch that Dumbledore would see to.

Taliesin

April 3rd, 2003, 1:32 am

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=246950#post246950))
they were informed that Crouch sr. was buried in the garden near Hagrids cabin. I do not see Dumbledore forgetting such a thing. I'm sure proper arrangements were made, behind the scenes, to give Mr. Bartemius Crouch Senior a decent burial. They may have waited until Winky was in a better condition so she could attend his funeral. It is the kind touch that Dumbledore would see to.

I have to agree with this one... such an important thing could not have escaped DD's attention. But WHY was Sirius in the garden in front of Hagrid's cabin?
Makes you wonder...:D

EvilMeghan

April 3rd, 2003, 1:57 am

Maybe it was the least suspicious place he could wait during the task, so he was still close by if he needed to help out. I think he felt something was going to happen to Harry and wanted to be there. The fact that Crouch was in Hagrid's garden and Sirius waited there is, to me, just a coincidence. But, hey, I could be wrong.

Ali

May 19th, 2003, 12:55 pm

*bump*

millerbrad

May 19th, 2003, 1:49 pm

Do we know for sure if the dementor's really sucked out Crouch Jr's soul? Maybe it was all a show, and Barty's stashed away somewhere...

C'mon rotsypots... Prove me wrong on this one... poke:

:eyebrows:

Sinistra

May 19th, 2003, 3:23 pm

Somehow I don't think McGonnagall and Snape could be fooled by a *fake* Dementor of a *fake* soul-sucking. They were there, they saw it, and they should know what's what. And Dumbledore still probably tested the *body* just to be sure.

As to Sirius waiting in Hagrid's garden, well, he couldn't be in the crowd. He was a *lovable stray* and Hagrid loves animals. Hagrid probably fed Sirius from time to time. Lucky Sirius survived Hagrid's cooking! :p :rotfl:

Goldie

May 19th, 2003, 6:11 pm

If Sirius found the bone, and knew it was Crouch, Sr., I doubt he would have felt inclined to either gnaw on it OR see to it that Crouch Sr. got a decent burial. Barty Sr. was the one who sent him to Azakaban without a trial, after all.

BTW, why isn't there some kind of Wizard's Appellate Court? Doesn't anyone oversee their legal system?!!

Earendil

May 19th, 2003, 9:48 pm

Their legal system seems to leave alot of room for improvement, judging from what we saw in the Pensieve. Also, the fact that McGonagall appeared to have been present at the time the Dementors gave the Kiss to BCJr, I would infer that it actually happened. What would she stand to gain by partaking in some cover-up scheme?

*still laughing at the thought of Sirius chomping on Crouch*

GaryGag

June 2nd, 2003, 12:00 am

I have to suscribe to the theory that
1. JKR used *bone* specifically for a good reason.
2. The only magical use we have seen in the books so far for bones is Voldie's spell.
3. Barty Jr. is conveniently separated from his body (his soul at least).
4. The dementors will almost certainly fall back under control of Voldie.
5. Voldie was most proud (GoF) of Barty as a servant and would probably try to get him back.

fuzzi95

June 7th, 2003, 9:59 pm

I think we will have to deal with Winky's anger in the next book. Her master was killed, and then probably eaten by Sirius or Fang. She'll want to see some punishment! I still think Sirius ate him. Dumbledore clearly stated that he was waiting in Hagrid's Garden, and that's where Crouch was Buried as a bone. Dogs eat bones! If he was hungry enough to eat rats, he may have nibbled a bit on the bone...

Potter1313

November 8th, 2003, 8:06 pm

Okay. I was talking about Harry Potter with some friends and we came up with this really cool theory. I'm just throwing this out there for discussion so you guys can comment.

1) Barty Crouch Jr. Turned his father into a bone. Why a bone? Why not a stick or a rock or something? That still wouldn't have looked out of place when buried in Hagrid's niffler patch.
2) At the end of GOF, Voldemort uses some ancient magic to bring him back and to restore him to a body. The three ingredients were as follows: Bone of the father, unknowingly given; flesh of the servant, willingly given; and blood of the enemy, forcibly taken. Well, Crouch Jr.'s ingredients are all there. His father is a bone, he's got many enemies, and flesh of the servant? Why, little Winky is still conveniently at Hogwarts, moping about her old masters.
3) Keep in mind that this resurrection doesn't require Crouch Jr. to actually be there. Only his spirit in some way shape or form. Voldemort controls the Dementors, correct? So what's to say that he won't find the one who kissed Barty Jr.?
4) Voldemort would most likely WANT to have Crouch Jr. back because he was (along with Bellatrix) one of his most faithful Death Eaters.

Tell me what you guys think.

HannahStarr

November 8th, 2003, 8:29 pm

I'm confused on this theory. What exactly are you suggesting? And anyway, I thought that the "flesh of the servant" was Peter's hand.

KeyserSoze

November 8th, 2003, 8:49 pm

Yes, what exactly are you proposing in your theory? Perhaps that Barty Crouch should be brought back by Voldemort with the same spell/potion/whatever that brought Voldemort back? If that is the case I see a problem with it, Crouch isn't physically dead, only his soul or whatever you want to call it was sucked out, leaving his body alive. Voldemort was turned into a spirit of sorts when he marked Harry, the spell I assumed was to bring him back into full physical form.

Hermione

November 8th, 2003, 8:55 pm

I too don't understand what you are proposing with your theory.The "flesh of the servant" was Peter's hand, Hannah.

Potter1313

November 8th, 2003, 9:03 pm

Sorry, guys, I wasn't very clear. What I'm suggesting is that there is a possibility that we may yet see Crouch Jr. again. Yes, it's far-fetched, believe me I know. All I'm saying is that it's possible. It may not be probable, but it's possible.

Yes, the flesh of the servant was Peter's hand. I'm saying that, if Voldemort were to try to use this spell to bring back Jr., he would only have to look as far as Winky. Winky was (and in a sense, still is in her mind) a servant of the Crouches and would gladly give up her job at Hogwarts (remember that she has a JOB and is paid to work there like Dobby) to rejoin Barty Jr. if she was asked. Make sense?

Now, onto Voldemort being a kind of spirit. What do you think Crouch's soul is? It's just trapped inside the Dementor who sucked it out of him. I don't think it matters that Crouch's body is still alive, but even if it did, that problem could be with a snap of the fingers.

All I'm saying here with my theory is that the circumstances make the return of Crouch a possibility. That Voldemort could attempt to give Crouch a body so that he could have yet another beyond-faithful servant by his side. There can't be any coincidence that Crouch turned his father into a bone, and this is what I think it could tie in with.

PlaceboAddict

November 8th, 2003, 9:08 pm

Potter1313

November 8th, 2003, 9:20 pm

I like that theory, good work! You're right, it's far fetched, but not impossible. And it is a little too random that he turned his father into a bone. The only problem I would see is that the if taking the soul of a victim from a dementor was so easy, everyone would be doing it, But the dementors have joined V-dawg now, so it's not unlikely that they would be able to 'cough up' his spirit or something...
Thanks! I appreciate that. ;) I definitely think that a dementor can't "cough up" someone's soul... you're right it would be too easy. But remember during Voldemort's rebirthing, the little reptilian body he had? Well... what happened to it? Who cares? The point is that the spirit of the one being reborn needs to have something that it can be carried in, a vessel, if you will. It's the ingredients that are added (the bone, flesh, and blood) that create the new body. So I'm saying that the Dementor that sucked out Crouch's soul would be the vessel.

Cat

November 8th, 2003, 9:26 pm

The big difference between Crouch and Voldemort is that Voldemort lost his body while his spirit remained and Crouch lost his spirit but kept his body. The potion recreated Voldemort's old body - how would this help Crouch, who already has a body of his own? We don't know that it can return the soul or if anything can. The soul might have passed through the digestive tracts of the Dementor, if a Dementor has digestive tracts. Either way, it won't be a pretty thing.

I presumed that the body was transfigured to a bone because a) a single bone is easier to bury and b) it was buried in the pumpkin patch near Hagrid's hut and Hagrid has a pet dog who might, when questioned, admit to burying the occasional bone there...

Personally, I think it would make more sense if the potion required the blood of your father, the bone of the servant and ... I don't know what would be required from an enemy. The eye, perhaps, since they will undoubtedly look at you with hateful eyes.

But Ms Rowling's way made more sense, the father being the dead one whose bones were most accessible.

I kepe editing this response - I just wanted to point out that Voldemort's potion was flawed in every way. The father's bone was of a body killed by the son, the servant's flesh was tarnished because of treachery and the blood of the enemy was saved by love and goodness.

periwinkle-blue

November 8th, 2003, 9:55 pm

Hmm.. I agree that the theory presented by Potter1313 are propable, but as Cat pointed out, transfiguring the body into a bone may proved to be more of a conveniece rather than a contingency plan or a safety precaution.

However, as I understand it, potion makings can evolved, and perhaps the possibility of modifying Voldermort's potion for summoning back Barty, Jr.'s spirit using the bone of his father could have it's merits. It's just as how Professor Snape prepared the new potion for Professor Lupin to contain his werewolf transformation. It wasn't available, or perhaps didn't even existed before then. There must be some kind of new potions along the way, be it dark arts or not.

Jessica

November 8th, 2003, 9:56 pm

I actually like this theory. Like you said, it may not actually happen, but you make a good case for it being possible.

Also supporting your theory is the fact that JKR built Crouch Jr up quite a bit. To just let him die without bringing him further into the stroy seems a little strange.

deadlocked

November 8th, 2003, 10:03 pm

But didnt he cry like a baby during his trial???
Surley Bella would tell LV that??

MOoF

November 8th, 2003, 10:04 pm

actually it makes ALOT of sense. As far as I could tell, the spell that was performed to get Voldemort's new body required a soul not in the body, flesh given from a servant, blood taken from an enemy, and a bone from their father.

Now what if they just threw the whole dementor into the pot. That would take care of the soul. The souls in the dementor that didnt have the other ingredients would either remain in the dementor, or if he was destroyed just be released into nothingness, like Voldemort was so long. Or possiibly they could pass on, or be ghosts like Nearly Headless Nick. But Crouch Jr. is a huge asset for Voldemort. I wouldnt be surprised if that was the plan indeed.

morgan le fay

November 8th, 2003, 10:42 pm

hmm.... interesting.... so heres a question:

once your soul is sucked out, what happens to the body?? it still has life in it, does it not?

sooo..........

if voldie were to indeed create a new body for crouch.... why would he need to??? he already has a body. can one sould have two bodies??

when voldie and wormtail performed the ritual to get voldie a new body, it was voldie's SPIRIT that had survived the rebounded AK curse. his BODY died. with crouch, it seems to be the opposite. his SPIRIT is gone, and his BODY remains.

do u get what i mean?

Tirwen Lupin

November 8th, 2003, 11:44 pm

when voldie and wormtail performed the ritual to get voldie a new body, it was voldie's SPIRIT that had survived the rebounded AK curse. his BODY died. with crouch, it seems to be the opposite. his SPIRIT is gone, and his BODY remains.
That's what I'm thinking too. How do we know that the soul even exists still? It might still be contained inside the dementor, or it may have been "digested". If it was digested, I don't think there's anything that could bring it back. And even if it could be, there would be no need for a new body. As Morgan said, the body is still there, unless it was somehow disposed of, but there isn't anything so far that would point to that.
So basically, Crouch is the opposite of what Voldemort was. Voldemort lost his body but his soul (or some of it) remained. Crouch's soul is gone, and his body remains.

Potter1313

November 9th, 2003, 1:07 am

That's what I'm thinking too. How do we know that the soul even exists still? It might still be contained inside the dementor, or it may have been "digested". If it was digested, I don't think there's anything that could bring it back. And even if it could be, there would be no need for a new body.
How do we know the soul even exists still? We don't. It's as simple as that. The soul may be "digested." I admit that I thought of that one when coming up with the theory but my response to that is that we just don't know. So, I'm assuming that the dementors do NOT digest souls. Now before you all go haywire on me for saying that, I would just like to add that this is purely speculation, we can't with any certainty confirm or deny the digestion of the human soul. Okay?

With this theory, you have to realize that the spell in question is performed SPECIFICALLY to create a new body for the spirit. Crouch's old body is useless right now. It's just something that sits there and breathes... a vegetable, if you will. So, if Voldemort's plan was to use this spell for Crouch, he would give him a new body. It would most likely be a replica of his old one, since that's what Voldemort got when he was reborn.

In response to morgan le fay.... The thing that I got from the books was that the body is simply a vessel for the soul--- like a container. If the body can survive without the soul, then the opposite is probably true. The soul can exist without the body if ejected. But Crouch's soul wasn't ejected from his body like Voldemort's was... it was transferred to another vessel, namely the dementor.

MOoF, I must admit that I completely forgot about the other souls that the dementor was holding inside. But you're right in saying that the potion wouldn't affect them at all, seeing as none of the ingredients pertain to them. Good catch though, thanks!

GryffindorSeeker

November 9th, 2003, 2:51 am

"Sirius was in the garden for a reason"
Well, if he was, then I find the answer obvious. He was digging for a bone! :p Now, Siriusly... Seriously now. (I love arguing with myself) Well I think that Sirius was in the garden just because dogs are sometimes in gardens, and no one thinks twice about it, even at Hogwarts. He could have been digging for Crouch, but he wasn't muddy...

Kaonashi

November 9th, 2003, 4:22 am

hmm.... interesting.... so heres a question:

once your soul is sucked out, what happens to the body?? it still has life in it, does it not?

I think it would be like being in a coma. Yes, you're still living, but only living. You have no concept of who you are, your past, or even where you are at. You can't think. You can't take care of yourself. The "who" of you is dead, while the "what" remains.

MOoF

November 9th, 2003, 4:31 am

I think that they wouldnt describe getting the dementors kiss if you werent imprisoned inside it for all eternity. Now maybe you cant escape it, but if anyone could find a way to get the soul back out it would be voldemort with his Dark Art.

Kaonashi

November 9th, 2003, 9:14 am

True, but the Dementors are a force onto themselves. I seriously doubt if they would give back anyone's soul. Not even for Voldemort. Maybe for a price, like someone else's soul.

Potter1313

November 9th, 2003, 11:45 pm

True, but the Dementors are a force onto themselves. I seriously doubt if they would give back anyone's soul. Not even for Voldemort. Maybe for a price, like someone else's soul.
well, they probably wouldn't be "giving back" anyone's soul. I definitely don't see them willingly doing that. Voldemort would force the dementor into the cauldron in order to perform the ritual.

Jonny Boy

November 11th, 2003, 9:59 pm

I think they dug him up and sent him off but I doubt we will ever know.

Tane

November 28th, 2004, 5:49 pm

I brought this thread up because perhaps Hagrid's garden is near the cemetery and that is why the Crouch was buried there, hoping that no one would notice in a graveyard.

Do you think this could be connected to the cemetery at Hogwarts?

Dark Arts

December 10th, 2004, 3:40 pm

Think of the implications for the laying to rest of loved ones. No longer would you need to pay the expense of a costly funeral. Simply transform their mortal remains into something useful, such as a new sofa or love seat. If your prefer a more formal item, you could transform them into a vase or clock. You could even make them into jewelry and they would never leave your side. .........................Yes I am being silly.

snuggle the muggle

December 10th, 2004, 3:58 pm

Not that silly. You can actually (in real life) have your loved one's ashes squashed into a diamond so that you can have it made into a ring or a broach or something. Kind of groady, if you ask me. And since I believe in ressurection, that is going to be an interesting sight. But, . . . I digress.

gena7180

December 10th, 2004, 4:07 pm

Ok first I thought the bone was buried in the forest not Hagrid's garden. Which is why we see the fake Moody coming out of the forest when Krum is stunned and that whole scene.

As for Crouch Jr getting his soul back, I am just not sure what the real purpose of bringing him back is. DD isn't getting back the lives of his most loyal followers who were casualties of the war why LV. It would be sort of unrealistic. Also how long can a body survive without a soul. I would think you would eventually stop eating and stuff and just die because why should you carry on with day to day life functions.

Random Sidebar: Where exactly do they keep the souless people after the kiss?

GodricHollow

December 10th, 2004, 4:16 pm

Imagine, "Sit down," you say to your mate, so he does "Oh, by the way, that's the remians of my Gandmother your sitting on," :whistle:

I'd imagine that they keep them in a seperate area of Azkaban.

Lucybird

December 11th, 2004, 12:46 pm

I'm surprised it wasn't dug up by a niffler! I wondered too if the magic would wear off... like when Krum transfigured into a shark (well his head did!)

fuzzi95

January 12th, 2005, 4:15 am

I think she's going to eventually reveal in future books!

Earendils Star

January 12th, 2005, 4:28 am

I think it's far more interesting to discuss Dementor's and their abilities in this thread. Another death eater, is, only human. A Dementor, on the other hand, can be repelled with a Patronus Charm, but cannot be destroyed. Are they beings, since they are not beasts? Or are they "Spirits"? Can they die? If so, how? They will be on Voldemort's side now, and hundreds of Dementors, that cannot die, and that can eat people's souls trouble me. Precious few wizards seem to be able to perform the Patronus Charm, as even the OWL instructors seem to be impressed, something that has not happened since Dumbledore "did things with his wand I had never seen before"?

Dementors seem to be closely, if not directly, related to death or more specifically, the veil. Sirius went into the veil, we know that JKR did this for a purpose. We know that the dementors will be freed in the next book and that there will more than likely be an appearance at some point of the dementors attacking people. I think that on the account that Barty Crouch Jr. is only one more death eater, the fact that Voldemort would go through all that trouble just to gain one more man on his side, is a bit rediculous. He doesn't seem too merciful to me. Then again he provided Wormtail with a new arm for his services in restoring him to his body. However to go through the trouble to restore Barty Jr's soul seems extreme, especially when he is attacking half the Wizarding World. "The Wizarding World will really be at war in this book" -JKR.