Religion in the wizarding world...

[raeredeyes]

One thing i was pondering today while driving home, was does the wizarding world have religion, and if they do, what is it based on?

They make references to Merlin...Could this be their equivalent to a god? Or just a figure of society, almost like a demi-god, but not a religious figure.?

[Cat]

Magic seems to be more like a craft than a religion. I think they take on the religions of Muggles.

[Tinkie]

Strange, I had never thought of that. I agree, I dont think that they view magic as religion or Merlin as a god or something. i think he is just one of the greatest for them, a figure to admire and have as example. I think they either follow the Muggles' religions or none at all. I mean they dont have to, do they?

[Cat]

Well if you consider Atheism as a religious standing, then that's one shared with Muggles as well :D

[jaded]

There is actually a lot of proof, such as subtle hints in the books, that supports Muggle religions (such as Christianity) in the wizard world. Harry as a Godfather, meaning there was a baptism. also, the name of a hospital: Saint Mungo's... I think there were several more examples, but these were just off the top of my head. We know JKR considers every little detail in the books :)

[Manyasha]

I think that wizards have the same religions as Muggles. They are Christian, Muslim, etc. The wizard world and our world are pretty much alike. I can't see why there should be such a major difference between them. Merlin was a great wizard, probably like Gryffindor and others. It doesn't mean that he is a god.
Just MHO. :)

[HogwartsChaplain]

Here's a copy of my article on aspects of religion and Christianity in HP. Later I did some research on Saint Mungo's Hospital, but didn't save that in wordprocessing, so that's among the stuff lost from MuggleNetForums.

- ------------ -

Religious Aspects of Harry Potter
~ ~ ~ by Evelyn J.P. Weston

During the past five years, Harry Potter has taken the world by magic. Four fantasy novels have been published, with three more still on the way. The blockbuster movie based on the first book premiered last November. Merchandise is everywhere and going fast. It seems people worldwide are talking about J.K. Rowling's teenage wizard-in-training.

Teachers and parents are talking about the wonderful way the books have drawn many children to reading. Church leaders and members are talking, too, but much said is critical of what is seen as the demonic in the books. Heated discussions, condemnations, and book-burnings by Christians have grieved the hearts of many children, teens, and adults who have come to love Harry, especially those who confess the Christian faith.

How the Christian community has responded to tales of fantasy and magic has been mixed throughout the years. Traditional fairy tales, often including magic and magical beings, have been deemed appropriate by most Christian families. C.S. Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia and J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings (both written by Christians) initially suffered condemnations similar to Harry Potter, but both classic series are now praised by most of the Christian community.

There is nothing specifically religious about the Harry Potter books. Some people think the wizardry and magic in this fantasy story cannot mix with Christianity. However, there are points within the stories that favor a Christian interpretation.

Christmas is celebrated in a cultural way at Hogwarts School. The winter school break is called the "Christmas holiday." While there are Christmas trees, decorations, presents, dinner, etc., there is no worship of Christ mentioned. However, in one scene the armor at the school sings “O Come, All Ye Faithful,” a Christian carol, and not something more secular such as “Deck the Halls.” Easter is observed in a similar manner, with the spring school break being called the "Easter holiday." Again, there is no worship of Christ mentioned. But it could be argued that Hogwarts is at least as "Christian" as most public schools in the United States.

On the other hand, neither is there any mention of any pagan, Wiccan, cultic, or satanic rituals, signs, or celebrations anywhere in the books. None of the wizards or witches notes the arrival of the full moon-- a traditional time for pagan worship-- or does anything of special religious significance at any time. The author reports that the magic spells are derived from Latin phrases, not real incantations.

One character in the books is a ghost called the Fat Friar. By his very name, we can assume he was a Christian. Becoming a Roman Catholic monk requires an initiation process lasting several years, culminating in vows to serve Christ. It would have been difficult to pass that level of scrutiny with a fraudulent faith in God. In one scene, the Fat Friar suggests to some students that an appropriate response to an attack would be for them to forgive.

Sirius Black is identified as Harry's godfather. This could be a sign that Harry has received Christian baptism. Sometimes godfathers and goddessmothers are connected with the Wiccan dedication rite of Wiccaning, which can be used with babies. This would be comparable to the christening or dedication of an infant in some Christian denominations, but would not be comparable to Christian baptism. However, there has been no mention of what rite was used whereby Sirius became Harry's godfather. At least through book four, how Sirius became Harry's godfather is left to the reader's interpretation.

A thematic tie with Christianity is seen in the form of sacrifice for the sake of another. Harry's mother died at the hand of the evil wizard Lord Voldemort, but Lily Potter's love protected her son from certain death. Years later, wise Headmaster Dumbledore tells Harry, "To have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever." Upon reading this, many Christian youth have come to a fresh understanding of Christ's sacrifice, and how Christ's enduring love protects God's children forever.

The basic story is a classic tale of good versus evil. One evil wizard says, "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it." But Harry and those on the side of good know otherwise, and the strong power they use to protect the good in their world is the same as the fruit of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

The Harry Potter books are entirely fictional. It is up to each individual to infer whatever religious identifications they see in the story and the characters. But there is much to be commended in Rowling's gripping tales of "the boy who lived."

- ------------- -

[jaded]

Great article, Evelyn! :) It makes a lot of sense, and I like what you've said in it.

[Manyasha]

:yup: It is really a good article. I agree totally.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Thanks, jaded. If I remember correctly, you were in on the discussion of religion in HP on MNet. Do you remember any other ideas that I've forgotten? I should have copied that whole thread to wordprocessing.... :censored:

[dorcasderr]

Evelyn's points are well thought out and well presented and I agree whole-heartedly. I wish those who haven't even read the books wouldn't condemn them out of hand. The same people probably read their children "MARY POPPINS" and so forth with no problem.

[Alicia_Potter]

I also think that Evelyn's article was amazing. Very well written and thought out. I also think that the religion in the wizarding world is parallel to the religion in the muggle world.

[Tarawyn]

It was very well written, and I'm impressed with the amount of thought you put into it. I'd think that wizards would share the same religions that we do, and acknowledge them in the same ways. Because we haven't seen anyone separating themselves in a way so that it becomes obvious what their religion means doesn't mean there aren't people in the books who are (or were) religious. The majority of people who I know don't let their religions interfere with their everyday lives.

Merlin seems to have been a very powerful wizard in the far past, and possibly mythology. I doubt they associate him to religion.

[cristalfairy]

Originally posted by jaded
There is actually a lot of proof, such as subtle hints in the books, that supports Muggle religions (such as Christianity) in the wizard world. Harry as a Godfather, meaning there was a baptism. also, the name of a hospital: Saint Mungo's... I think there were several more examples, but these were just off the top of my head. We know JKR considers every little detail in the books :)
I agree, also they have the fat fraiar, and the armors sing oh come all ye faithful, so there is religion, in the wizarding world

[raeredeyes]

This is another one of Leah's big Der! moments. I have them a lot.
Now i see i have not being paying much attention. Of course there is so much evidence of Christianity in the books, it would be evident that the wizarding world followed at least one variation...

I have become so entrenched in consumerism and atheism, that i forgot the most evident one - christmas. I totally forgot that that actually is a religious holiday. *sigh*

[daniel4hp]

While all religious references in the books could be explained away as merely references to British culture, you must remember that the wizards largely grew up away from mugggles and would, as a result, not be likely to follow the same exact culture. It would seem probable that wizards follow all the same religions as muggles, since wizards, as well as muggles, would likely be converted. It would seem that wizards born to muggle parents would get 11 years worth of religion and would likely not want to give this up when they entered the wizarding world--religion is something people feel strongly about. Of course, it could also be argued that this is how muggle culture entered, but it seems to me improbable that there is no religion in the wizarding world, or that they have their own religion (since they wouldn't celebrate "pagan" holidays). It seems most likely to me that they follow all the religions of the muggle world.

[Tinkie]

Great article evelyn, it really made me think. i had never really thought about these things in this way, although i was constantly tryng to find something that showed that HP did not have anything demonic in it. i couldnt believe that they could attack this book. i mean as you say you can read anything in any book, it depends on your general viewpoint. you can have the most innocent book and find traces of evil and read things as certain symbols if you really believe that.
Anyway. the fact that Sirius is a godfather had slipped through my mind when i was thinking about this topic and Christmas holidays as well.

[HogwartsChaplain]

The Bible does speak out against witchcraft:

Leviticus 19:26b, NRSV
You shall not practice augury or witchcraft.

Deuteronomy 18:9-14, NRSV
When you come into the land that the LORD your God is giving you, you must not learn to imitate the abhorrent practices of those nations. No one shall be found among you who makes a son or daughter pass through fire, or who practices divination, or is a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer, or anyone who casts spells, or who consults with ghosts or spirits, or who seeks oracles from the dead. For whomever does these things is abhorrent to the LORD; it is because of such abhorrent practices that the LORD your God is driving them out before you. You must remain completely loyal to the Lord your God. Although these nations that you are about to dispossess do give heed to soothsayers and diviners, as for you, the LORD your God does not permit you to do so.

Also, King Saul consulted a "witch" to foresee the outcome of a battle, and the result was that Saul and his sons lost their lives in the battle the next day. God wasn't happy with Saul! (see 1st Samuel 28:3-20, 31:1-6)

The problem with "witchcraft" (and HP, in the minds of many Christians) is that it encourages people to place their trust in something other than God. To do that is to break the First Commandment-- to have no other gods but the One True God. But this is a constant problem with all people of faith, because it's easier to trust our own powers, or our world's powers, than trust the God whom we can only know through faith.

Harry Potter is fiction, and as long as it is used for good-- and not actual lessons in witchcraft-- I don't think it really causes problems. Problems do arise, however, when people condemn something they haven't taken the time to understand. IMHO

[jaded]

Originally posted by HogwartsChaplain
Harry Potter is fiction, and as long as it is used for good-- and not actual lessons in witchcraft-- I don't think it really causes problems. Problems do arise, however, when people condemn something they haven't taken the time to understand. IMHO

Couldn't have said it better myself. :) just because we read it, doesn't mean we believe that it is read or put it before God. :no:

[Cat]

Originally posted by HogwartsChaplain

To do that is to break the First Commandment-- to have no other gods but the One True God. .

Hold up! Sorry to get into a debate that isn't really Harry Potter, but witchcraft isn't a religious practise. It doesn't generally have gods. How is that breaking the first commandment?

(I could also bring up the fact when somebody's big description was 'wise man' it meant wizard. Three wizards stood before Jesus. There's more proof but I can't remember it... something to do with Magi. Might that be a holy pardon?)

[HogwartsChaplain]

Originally posted by Cat
...witchcraft isn't a religious practise. It doesn't generally have gods. How is that breaking the first commandment?
The First Commandment is usually understood to be more than the things we literally think of as religious "gods" and includes anything in which we place higher allegiance, loyalty, etc., than God. At least, that's what has been taught in my tradition (Lutheran Christianity).

(I could also bring up the fact when somebody's big description was 'wise man' it meant wizard. Three wizards stood before Jesus. There's more proof but I can't remember it... something to do with Magi. Might that be a holy pardon?)
Yes, you're right, the three Magi, wise men, could also be translated wizards. Many scholars and theologians believe they were astrologers, like Professor Sinistra.

Holy pardon? Possibly. The New Testament seems less vehemently against "magic" than the Old Testament. Again, in my mind much has to do with how it affects one's ability to place one's greatest trust in God. IMHO

[Cat]

It's so strange that they pick on Harry Potter. The driving force behind the book isn't 'Hey, kids! Go to church!' but few books have that. There's nothing anti-Christian. You've pointed out that there's no denial of God in the series. It's just ridiculous to think that Harry Potter could cause anybody to turn to evil because it's not devoutly religious. Digestive biscuits aren't particularly religious, either, but eating one won't cause my head to do full rotations. Looking at a digestive biscuit doesn't cause young children to lose faith in God, either.

I'm going off on one here, I know, but it's so astounding that anybody could be in such dire need of a hobby as the people who burn the books.

[cristalfairy]

Originally posted by Cat
...I'm going off on one here, I know, but it's so astounding that anybody could be in such dire need of a hobby as the people who burn the books.
I could not agree with you more, I might also add that the ones who criticize Harry Potter and say that it is anti- religious are in deed in great need of a hobby. :rasp:

[daniel4hp]

I agree with Hogwarts Chaplain--

1. The First Commandment refers to more than just religious Gods. In my church (Orthodox Presbyterian) a "god" is anything that you consider of more importance than the One True God.

2. While the Bible says not to practice witchcraft, it doesn't say not to read fantasy. I don't think there's anything wrong with the HP books as long as you don't believe them.

[Daisy!]

http://www.plauder-smilies.de/happy/bigok.gif Yeah, that was awsome HogwartsChaplin! that cleared up some stuff for me!

2. While the Bible says not to practice witchcraft, it doesn't say not to read fantasy. I don't think there's anything wrong with the HP books as long as you don't believe them. I :yes:

[cristalfairy]

Originally posted by daniel4hp
2. While the Bible says not to practice witchcraft, it doesn't say not to read fantasy. I don't think there's anything wrong with the HP books as long as you don't believe them.
There you go, I could not agree more.
I can see myself going into a store and asking for a mandrake for my backyard:rotfl:
Better yet, let me go try to open my front door with the Alohomora, spell:lol:

[The Oracle]

Feel free to move this, if for some reason objectionable here. ;)

I'm not sure if this has been brought up or not before, but I haven't seen anything directly about this in the forums I visit. I'm wondering about religion in Harry's world, the wizarding world. They have Christmas break, but does that mean they're Christian, or celebrate Christmas in a Christian fashion? Assuming it is celebrated for the "spirit of Christmas" like giving and being with family, you have to acknowledge the holiday isn't all decorated trees and prezzies. Having said that..

The wizarding world knows that muggles are kind of er, slow on the uptake. They see magic, but don't recognize it or blow it off as a trick of the eye. So do they (magic folk) believe in Jesus? Jesus was the son of God or did he take a potion prior to dying and that's how he rose from the dead. Moses talked to God and God spoke through him, or was Moses a wizard. I'm not strictly talking about the Bible, but any religion.

It just seems kind of ironic to me that there can be a powerful wizard like Voldemort, doing "great things" explained by magic, but then they celebrate Christmas, which celebrates the birth of Christ. Is the wizarding world religious, knowing most of this stuff can be done using magic?

[Cat]

Some people put it down to scientific chicanery but there are still plenty of Christians. You can't say 'Are they Christian?' because there are many of them. It is not a religiously orientated school. Some of them will be Christian, some Jewish, a Hindu or two and some magically minded atheists.

So magic would be their way of life... in the very real world we can see people of various occupations, educations, surroundings and traditions clinging on to their faith for dear life. It's just one of those things.

[HogwartsChaplain]

My apologies to those of you who have read this already.... This is posted in a couple of other places here, and elsewhere on the web, but, for your convenience, here is an article I wrote last winter for my school's student newspaper:

---------

Religious Aspects of Harry Potter
by Evelyn J.P. Weston

During the past five years, Harry Potter has taken the world by magic. Four fantasy novels have been published, with three more still on the way. The blockbuster movie based on the first book premiered last November. Merchandise is everywhere and going fast. It seems people worldwide are talking about J.K. Rowling's teenage wizard-in-training.

Teachers and parents are talking about the wonderful way the books have drawn many children to reading. Church leaders and members are talking, too, but much said is critical of what is seen as the demonic in the books. Heated discussions, condemnations, and book-burnings by Christians have grieved the hearts of many children, teens, and adults who have come to love Harry, especially those who confess the Christian faith.

How the Christian community has responded to tales of fantasy and magic has been mixed throughout the years. Traditional fairy tales, often including magic and magical beings, have been deemed appropriate by most Christian families. C.S. Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia and J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings (both written by Christians) initially suffered condemnations similar to Harry Potter, but both classic series are now praised by most of the Christian community.

There is nothing specifically religious about the Harry Potter books. Some people think the wizardry and magic in this fantasy story cannot mix with Christianity. However, there are points within the stories that favor a Christian interpretation.

Christmas is celebrated in a cultural way at Hogwarts School. The winter school break is called the "Christmas holiday." While there are Christmas trees, decorations, presents, dinner, etc., there is no worship of Christ mentioned. However, in one scene the armor at the school sings “O Come, All Ye Faithful,” a Christian carol, and not something more secular such as “Deck the Halls.” Easter is observed in a similar manner, with the spring school break being called the "Easter holiday." Again, there is no worship of Christ mentioned. But it could be argued that Hogwarts is at least as "Christian" as most public schools in the United States.

On the other hand, neither is there any mention of any pagan, Wiccan, cultic, or satanic rituals, signs, or celebrations anywhere in the books. None of the wizards or witches notes the arrival of the full moon-- a traditional time for pagan worship-- or does anything of special religious significance at any time. The author reports that the magic spells are derived from Latin phrases, not real incantations.

One character in the books is a ghost called the Fat Friar. By his very name, we can assume he was a Christian. Becoming a Roman Catholic monk requires an initiation process lasting several years, culminating in vows to serve Christ. It would have been difficult to pass that level of scrutiny with a fraudulent faith in God. In one scene, the Fat Friar suggests to some students that an appropriate response to an attack would be for them to forgive.

Sirius Black is identified as Harry's godfather. This could be a sign that Harry has received Christian baptism. Sometimes godfathers and goddessmothers are connected with the Wiccan dedication rite of Wiccaning, which can be used with babies. This would be comparable to the christening or dedication of an infant in some Christian denominations, but would not be comparable to Christian baptism. However, there has been no mention of what rite was used whereby Sirius became Harry's godfather. At least through book four, how Sirius became Harry's godfather is left to the reader's interpretation.

A thematic tie with Christianity is seen in the form of sacrifice for the sake of another. Harry's mother died at the hand of the evil wizard Lord Voldemort, but Lily Potter's love protected her son from certain death. Years later, wise Headmaster Dumbledore tells Harry, "To have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever." Upon reading this, many Christian youth have come to a fresh understanding of Christ's sacrifice, and how Christ's enduring love protects God's children forever.

The basic story is a classic tale of good versus evil. One evil wizard says, "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it." But Harry and those on the side of good know otherwise, and the strong power they use to protect the good in their world is the same as the fruit of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

The Harry Potter books are entirely fictional. It is up to each individual to infer whatever religious identifications they see in the story and the characters. But there is much to be commended in Rowling's gripping tales of "the boy who lived."

-------

FYI, if I were writing this now, there are a few more things I could add....

I've subscribed to this thread, and will happily discuss this topic with anyone interested. :)

[The Oracle]

My original question wasn't whether there's religion in JKR's world, but just in the wizarding world. The Fat Friar was just the example I was looking for. Tho, just because he was a friar, doesn't mean he was magical. He's in Hogwarts? Yeah, but like its been brought up, its not a religious school so why's he there? That could probably be a topic in itself I think. :)

If you were raised in a Christian family, went to church every Sunday, etc etc, and you got a letter from Hogwarts, what would you think? Would you go? So, say you do go and find out that the world you know of is so limited. Potions, charms, transfigurations...things that would or could challenge God. Immortality is one of them. There's many reasons (in my mind) that you could question your religion, any religion after you learn about the magical world. So many religious stories might be explained through the use of magic.
I also don't see the Malfoys as being Christian or any known religion. Them, worshiping a muggle man, Jesus? Or another muggle man, Buddha? They're too full of themselves and take too much pride in their magic heritage to believe that way. And its not limited to just them, but the wizarding world in general. That was where my questions came from. Not religion in HP in regards to the real world, or how it satisfies Christians.

Dunno if I'm getting my questions or ideas across, cuz I'm a dork that way. hehe.. :D

[Qeomash]

I see what you're saying, Oracle. I've wondered myself if the wizarding world followes any religion. I'd suspect that many do. The break at Christmas, I really doubt they do that just for the Muggle born.

I would suspect that they wouldn't worship Jesus or Budda as a muggle, but probably as a wizard sent from God.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Originally posted by The Oracle
My original question wasn't whether there's religion in JKR's world, but just in the wizarding world.
By "JKR's world," do you mean the real world that JKR lives in (our world), or do you mean the ficticious world that JKR has created? How does the world JKR created differ from the wizarding world? I assume the latter two are the same.

The Fat Friar was just the example I was looking for. Tho, just because he was a friar, doesn't mean he was magical. He's in Hogwarts? Yeah, but like its been brought up, its not a religious school so why's he there? That could probably be a topic in itself I think. :)
Of course, JKR hasn't given us all the details yet. I've assumed that any ghost that hangs around Hogwarts is at least sympathetic to the wizarding world, if not a member of the wizarding community. We don't have enough details to know which is the case for any ghost, such as the Fat Friar.

Those of us from the US need to remember that Separation of Church and State is an American concept, and not a British one. Most British schools (in our world) have some form of religious education, often mandatory, and short Christian worship services regularly. Attendance is optional after age 16. While Hogwarts differs from British schools, the British boarding school still is the basic pattern on which JKR has modeled much of Hogwarts. And the British model wouldn't preclude some religious education (usually a tolerant approach to understanding many diverse world religions). Though, since we have not yet seen any religious education at Hogwarts, we don't know for sure that any of that applies, but neither do we know for sure that it doesn't apply.

If you were raised in a Christian family, went to church every Sunday, etc etc, and you got a letter from Hogwarts, what would you think? Would you go?
I guess that would depend entirely on the person, whether they wanted to stay within the muggle world they knew or explore a new world. I would guess that some religious muggle-borns would refuse the invitation, and a few brave and adventurous people would accept. Some Christians might even see the invitation as an opportunity to minister to the wizarding community. I see this as one option for how the Fat Friar became connected with Hogwarts.

So, say you do go and find out that the world you know of is so limited. Potions, charms, transfigurations... things that would or could challenge God. Immortality is one of them. There's many reasons (in my mind) that you could question your religion, any religion after you learn about the magical world. So many religious stories might be explained through the use of magic.
Just as so many people who have been raised in the Church and learn about recent discoveries (science, other religions, etc.) have turned away from Christianity....

I also don't see the Malfoys as being Christian or any known religion. Them, worshiping a muggle man, Jesus? Or another muggle man, Buddha? They're too full of themselves and take too much pride in their magic heritage to believe that way.[quote]
I certainly agree, just as there are many people in our world who find it impossible to believe in God, I expect there are some wizards who have faith and others who don't.

[quote]And its not limited to just them, but the wizarding world in general. That was where my questions came from. Not religion in HP in regards to the real world, or how it satisfies Christians.

Dunno if I'm getting my questions or ideas across, cuz I'm a dork that way.
I'm afraid you have lost me on this last part. :( ???

[HogwartsChaplain]

Originally posted by Qeomash
I would suspect that they wouldn't worship Jesus or Budda as a muggle, but probably as a wizard sent from God.
I agree. Someone remembered that there is a quote in GoF (sorry, my books are not accessible at the moment) where Dumbledore says that people cannot come back from the dead. Though we don't know how wizards look at Christ's death and resurrection, one option is that this was a more powerful "magic" than other wizards have had.

[The Oracle]

Originally posted by Qeomash
I see what you're saying, Oracle. I've wondered myself if the wizarding world followes any religion. I'd suspect that many do. The break at Christmas, I really doubt they do that just for the Muggle born.

*nods* I tend to agree but they also might have started out of respect to all the half-blood students or students from totally non-magic families that do celebrate a holiday of some type around that time, plus the New Years. ehhe..

I would suspect that they wouldn't worship Jesus or Budda as a muggle, but probably as a wizard sent from God.

*nods* Again, I tend to agree in regards to the wizards and witches that have some concept of life outside of magic. You're a wizard, you find a muggle wife and you have to find some sort of agreement about your different views of religion, or if you have one at all.

Its made perfectly clear that a lot of the wizarding world is complete ignorant or clueless to the world of muggles. The best example is Ron's dad. He's totally lost when it comes to even the simplest of things like escalators. You'd think they don't know what pullies are, or other things related to physics. :p

Anyway my point was, what would make a witch or wizard believe in such a concept as the Bible (or other religions which have very mythical type stories attached to them) when much of it can be explained by the use of magic. Religion is widely debated because it cannot be proven to either be true, or not true. Its a belief. Once you know for a fact that something like Moses parting the waters -can- happen, then its not a belief anymore, its a fact. Might not happen all the time, and it might take a very powerful wizard, but it can happen. That's my question. Why would a wizard believe in something that could be explained a number of ways though the use of magic?

And no, them having a Christmas/Easter holiday doesn't explain it enough for me. ;) Plenty of people celebrate out of tradition, not religion.

[mrs_fawkes]

i really like your article, hogwartschaplain.
i am a christian and believe in Jesus Christ as my Savior. and i do know someone in my church that had tried to get our pastor to comdemn the hp books; pastor wouldn't.

edit: it really saddens me that ppl would condemn something before finding out about it. i wonder if ANY of the ppl that want to ban hp have actually read the books. i absolutely love the books and find nothing wrong with them.

[cathairetic]

*bump*

[Fuchsia]

Merlin could be to them what King Arthur is to the round table?

[Puffskein]

I'm agnostic and I don't see why there should be religion in HP. There's obviously plenty of morality. It doesn't have to have a religious basis.

[HogwartsChaplain]

No, morality doesn't have to be religious. Personally, I think morality works better when it's based on logic more than faith.

The thing about religion in HP is that it's there, whether one likes it or not. It's there because JKR chooses to include a lot of little clues as to some religious connection between the wizarding world and the muggle religious world. The clues aren't at all clear what the connection is, however, which is what makes discussing religion in the HP world interesting, in my opinion.

In some other thread somewhere (probably in the Common Room), there is an article that talks about JKR's religious beliefs, and how her faith connects with her writing. Sorry that I don't have time to find it and link it for you. You might try a search under "religion." Gotta run-- :mustdash:

[Ferrik]

Originally posted by The Oracle
Anyway my point was, what would make a witch or wizard believe in such a concept as the Bible (or other religions which have very mythical type stories attached to them) when much of it can be explained by the use of magic. Religion is widely debated because it cannot be proven to either be true, or not true. Its a belief. Once you know for a fact that something like Moses parting the waters -can- happen, then its not a belief anymore, its a fact. Might not happen all the time, and it might take a very powerful wizard, but it can happen. That's my question. Why would a wizard believe in something that could be explained a number of ways though the use of magic?

That wouldn't necessarily keep a wizard from believing in God. It may even have the opposite effect. They may start to wonder where all the power comes from. Or they may find magical explanations lacking. It's a lot like science in our own world. Some people see scientific explanations of phenomena as proof that there is no God. Others see the complexity of the phenomena itself as proof that there is. :shrug: It's all in how you look at it I guess.

Edit: Just noticed a similar thread in the Common Room. Maybe these should be merged...

[daniel4hp]

Er... could you clarify? What King Arthur is to the round table? The owner? The leader?

[daniel4hp]

Well, largely I agree with Evelyn. I think religion is there like it or not. I'm not saying that Hogwarts is a particularly relgious school or that anyone we know in HP is neccessarily religious, but I think that religion is there. The Fat Friar is one example. The very fact that both Christmas and Easter (both originally Christian holidays) are celebrated and that although Olivanders shop was started before Christ's birth but they bothered to change the founding date to reflect Christ all point to religion in HP.

As for Jesus, Moses, ect. and magic-- I don't think any of this would remove a faith in God. Just because some of the things in the Bible could be done by magic doesn't mean that they are not true--if fact, it reinforces them which gives the Bible more credibility. Also, we know that there are things that can't be done though magic, such as the raising of people from the dead, that would mean that miracals would have to exist. Even if Jesus did heal people through magic he couldn't have raised Lazurus that way. There must be other restrictions on magic that would make Old Testament stories have a supernatural aspect as well. Thus magic certainly doesn't make religion impossible.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Originally posted by Ferrik
Edit: Just noticed a similar thread in the Common Room. Maybe these should be merged...
Unfortunately, that won't work (I know from a baaaaad experience from which Morgoth rescued me) that this won't work. When two threads are merged, all the posts will be re-aligned so they'll appear in date order. So, instead of having one discussion followed by another discussion, the threads would become one intermingled discussion-- rather like shuffling a deck of cards. If they are to retain any logical progression, these two threads must remain separate.

[lanifiel]

I dunno thats a fairly weak kind of assesstment. I'm not Christian or any religion for that matter, but I will still celebrate the spirit of Christmas as a time for friends and family, and the exchanging of presents to show affection for those friends and loved ones, anyway I'm kind of rambling... sorry...

[Fuchsia]

He's their leader, yes. He is thought to be a King among Kings.
So Merlin could be an erm, wizard among wizards.
But leader-ish and inventive.

[Morgoth]

Religion will undoubedly play a role in the HP world, whether we read about it or not, as JK has repeatedly said the world of Muggles and Magic co-exist with one another. Muggle-born children without any previous knowledge of magic would know of religion in one persepective and the transition from that to a magical world would indeed be a strange one if there wasn't some kind of binding knowledge that both worlds share. In this respect religion would be the bridge between both. The only difference maybe in how the Wizards practice their faith, as they would possibly have a greater wealth of Knowledge about the origins of life.

JK purged a lot of English folklore for her spells and potions etc... There is very little point in Christians getting all wound up in children performing HP type spells for fun, after all they are just children. It's not like I go around cursing my boss with boils and such... :whistle:

[Fuchsia]

They have to wonder where their magic came from. That will most likely come up.

[raeredeyes]

hmm, like humans searching from where they came from...
Wizards looking to religion to explain the roots of their magic and where it came from...

Coool idea :D

[Puffskein]

They'll have to look back to the dawn of time to find out where magic originated. It's been around a looooooong time...

[daniel4hp]

Its my understanding that magic has always existed... but I suppose that it would only be natural for them to wonder where it came from, just like its natural to wonder where our physical world came from... they take it for granted, but they would still wonder.

[daniel4hp]

This has gotten a little off-topic, but at its core it is about religion in HP. I'm merging it with another thread from the Great Hall that is something like this...

[�ÕbBŸ]

Do wizards and witches believe in God? I know that most muggle borns would, but what about pure bloods? God to us is 'Our Lord', and Voldermort to them is 'The Dark Lord'.

Then is the first movie when Filtch is taking Malfoy, harry, Ron, and Hermione to Hagrids, he says stuff like ' GOD I miss the screaming', Good GOD your not still on about that dragon', and 'Oh for GOD'S sake pull yourself together!'

What do you guys think?...

[Weatherby]

They do celebrate Christmas at Hogwarts so someone in the establishment must.
Then again.. my house was never particulary religious and we did Christmas.

[Ash_Key]

Well.. God to us is Lord because He's really powerful... Maybe they think the same about Voldemort... powerful evil person..

[Myrddin]

Phrases akin to "Oh my God" and "For God's sake" tend to be used in the UK as a form of expression rather than a religious referral. Christianity is very much on the wane here, so I’d take Filch’s religious exclamations with a pinch of salt. True, they do celebrate Christmas at Hogwarts but then a lot of non-Christians celebrate the post Coca-Cola Corp Santa Christmas as well. What strikes me as odd is the big deal made about Halloween. It’s more of an American thing with the pumpkin pie and what not, we Britishers seem to be more preoccupied with Guy Fawkes Night which is celebrated on the 5th of November. It’s also odd because Halloween in the Potter Universe is the anniversary of Harry’s parents’ death.

[Ash_Key]

Eek! Didn't notice that before..

[Ame]

Well Halloween being important in the HP Universe makes sense to me. I mean isn't Halloween supposed to be a sacred day for witches and wizards? I remember reading that in one of my books... hmm I think I need to do a bit of research and reading. (I sound like Hermione... don't I?)

As far as Christmas, I think most pople religous ar not celebrate that holiday. That's if you don't observe another holiday around that same time. I am Christian... or at least I was raised to be one. And I know the religious reasoning behind it... but I think I keep celebrating it because its just soemthing I grew up with.

I bet some of the Hogwarts children and staff grew celebrating Christmas, and so there's no point in stopping now. It's all commercial and gifts anyway, not many remember or care about the reasoning for Christmas.

[Ash_Key]

Yes, you DO sounded like Hermione. You need to loosen up a little..

[lanifiel]

I think this thread should be placed in "The Common Room", as it does not directly relate to book plot lines...

[Ash_Key]

And *that* one sounds like Percy..

[Ame]

LOL... Okay Ash... but I have already read about ten webpages on Halloween and this is what I've found:

Halloween is short for all Hallows Eve. The holiday dates back to a pagan ritual. It has been traced to the Celts. Oct. 31 marked the beginning of the new year. It was believed that on this day the living world and spirit world would merge, and spirits would then travel to the world beyond. And so it was also a day to observe the dead. Bonfires would be lit to guide the souls to the world beyond and to appease the God of the Dead.

Furthermore, it was believed that spells and charms were more powerful on this day. That explains why witches and wizards would look so highly on this day.

The Celtic name for this day was Samhain. The name all Hallows Eve came after the Christian religion was introduce. Seeing how Chritianity is against all things pagan, they found a way to make the holiday more religious. All Hallows Day was a day to recognize all the Saints known or unknow. It was originally in May but was then changed to Nov. 1. All Hallows eve, Halloween, was believed to be a day of great evil, and so the Christians told the Celts that the bonfires would protect them from the Devil. This was less pagan and still allowed the people to keep a bit of their tradition. Nov. 2 was all Souls day, a day to celebrate the souls.

Okay, now it's come back to me. So, yeah like I said earlier it makes sense that Hogwarts would hold huge feasts for Halloween every year.

And I think Lani is right... this thread should be moved.

[Ash_Key]

*claps* That's really great, Ame! And lani, yoo-hoo! Move this thread, please.

[Myrddin]

Originally posted by Ame
Furthermore, it was believed that spells and charms were more powerful on this day. That explains why witches and wizards would look so highly on this day.

Well that at least explains why Lord Voldermort went after the Potters on Halloween - to maximise his chances. Maybe James was a match for him?

BTW Welsh (Being a Celtic people) for Halloween is Nos Galan Gaeaf which translates directly to 'Eve of Winter', more something to fear than celebrate.

[Sirius Black]

Originally posted by Myrddin
Phrases akin to "Oh my God" and "For God's sake" tend to be used in the UK as a form of expression rather than a religious referral. Christianity is very much on the wane here, so I’d take Filch’s religious exclamations with a pinch of salt. True, they do celebrate Christmas at Hogwarts but then a lot of non-Christians celebrate the post Coca-Cola Corp Santa Christmas as well. What strikes me as odd is the big deal made about Halloween. It’s more of an American thing with the pumpkin pie and what not, we Britishers seem to be more preoccupied with Guy Fawkes Night which is celebrated on the 5th of November. It’s also odd because Halloween in the Potter Universe is the anniversary of Harry’s parents’ death.

Actually, it's an Irish thing, it first started in Ireland which is close to Scotland, so that's wy they make a big deal. And it's got a lot to do with witches and all. I think they do believe in God, they should I mean. Maybe Harry's a prophet or something come to destroy the Devil, Voldemort.

[Myrddin]

Originally posted by Sirius Black
Actually, it's an Irish thing, it first started in Ireland which is close to Scotland, so that's why they make a big deal. And it's got a lot to do with witches and all. I think they do believe in God, they should I mean. Maybe Harry's a prophet or something come to destroy the Devil, Voldemort.

I went to a University in Scotland that has a rather large American community. My remarks about Halloween/Guy Fawkes were based on my experiences there.

Sirius, with regard to Harry, I made some similar comments and was laughed out of the thread. :)

[Sirius Black]

Really??? Is that why you've made you gender Idiot???LOL:p :rotfl:

[Myrddin]

Sirius, I don't really know why I made my gender 'Idiot', it just seemed appropriate given that I have a knack for starting stupid threads that everyone disagrees with.

Anyhow, got to get back to my village.

[Sirius Black]

Wow, you live in a Village??? Where you from. Whoops, sorry to jump of topic.

[Myrddin]

Erm it was more a figure of speech, you know, 'A village somewhere is missing it's idiot'. I'm from a tiny village in West Wales since you ask but I now live in Edinburgh.

Right, back on topic. What about the other Triwizard Schools? Are they Christian or otherwise? I think it's probably safe to assume that there is more than one religion in the Wizarding world.

[Picko]

Does it really matter whether the characters in the books are religious? Does it make them better people? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I guess it would be naive to think that the wizarding world be smart enough to not have religion.

[Mr. Granger]

I am pretty sure that they grew out of religion and and other superstitious believes like that long ago since they don´t search explanations for what they do not understand in a vague form of advanced being not living their lives on earth but basing their existence on suffering and pain with the hope of soem great paradise after death.

btw
"Do wizards and witches believe in God? I know that most muggle borns would, but what about pure bloods?"

1. which of the dozens of million gods (hinduism alone has 11million) do u mean ?

2. in my school there is almost no one left admiring that sect and religious lessons have been canceled from class 5 to 13 since there is no one left going to them.

[familiar]

I researched some boarding schools for a term paper once and they all provided transportation to churches if the kids desired it. Perhaps Hogwarts does something similar? Like, a multi-denominational service or a chaplain type who holds seperate services for different religions. The Dursleys didn't go to church apparently, so Harry probably wouldn't be likely to go either. It doesn't sound like Hermione or the Weasleys go either. Of course, that doesn't mean they don't believe in God or aren't religious.

I'm sure if JKR did mention religion in her books there would probably be a riot (I'm exaggerating), so it's probably better that she doesn't. That way you can read it from your own personal perspective if you want.

By the way, Holloween in the US is the second largest shopping season of the year. Christmas is first. Children and Adults look forward to it immensely and buy a lot of candy and costumes, and throw a lot of parties. My workplace has a huge Holloween celebration and everyone brings their kids (all age groups) and they trick or treat around all the offices and then go to a party in the cafeteria. I think JKR found out how big the US celebration is, perhaps, and thought it sounded like fun.

[Midnightsfire]

Were the words Halloween or Christmas actually used?

I don't recall if they were.

If not, then the party/celebration could have been called anything.

Feast of Samhain, Yule, etc...

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by lanifiel
I think this thread should be placed in "The Common Room", as it does not directly relate to book plot lines...

Yessa, what I think too. And, there are already some ´threads about this topic, I opened one myself (it was closed, but neverr mind).

Puts on Mod's voice: If you're not sure if your topic has been discussed before, use the search-funktion on top of each page.

Mh, I guess there will be a link leading to another thread and then someone will lock´this before long...

[Mr. Granger]

Halloween is the feast where witches and magical creatures appear so naturally its easy to be ajusted to the magical world.

[HogwartsChaplain]

originally posted by stellaluna
...there are already some threads about this topic; I opened one myself (it was closed, but never mind).

Actually, it's now a referral thread in Hogwarts Chapel, so people can find other threads where connections between religion and HP are discussed.

I will need to merge this with the thread that already exists here. We do that so people can read what has already been posted on a topic, not to closed down discussion on a topic. I love discussing this... even if some people don't agree with my ideas.

[Loey]

Do you think wizards/witches believe in God?

[HarryPottersfan]

Well in the movie, the Wand store had the markings "Quality Wands Since 6 B.C." So I guess they acknowledged the fact Jesus Christ was born. Now if they believe in God...who knows but J.K. Rowling?

[Mireille]

Well, JK writes in that the children get Chirstmas break, so I would have to say that yes, wizards are Christian or at least believe in God. Also, there is the Fat Frier which is also another clue that wizards can be Christian. You just have to look for the subtle hints.

[dorcasderr]

There is...or was (did it get purged?) a thread that addressed religion in the wizarding world. The concensus, as I recall was that, yes the individual wizards would worship according to their own upbringing. Christian wizarding families, Jewish wizarding families, Hindu...whatever. JKR doesn't write about this aspect of the characters' lives, but she doesn't exclude it either.

[Daily Propheter]

Because of the hints that we've been given (the Fat Friar, Religious holidays, like Easter Break, and Christmas break, etc) I'm pretty sure that religion is a part of the wizarding world. But, like dorcasderr said, JKR doesn't really elaborate on it in the books.

[Animagi Girl]

I agree with Daily Propheter.

[WhiteSlash]

I bet that they have religons. But I have a question, if you were Jewish, or Hindu or someother belief and you what to Hogwarts...Would you have to celebrate Christmas?

[Daily Propheter]

My High School is a public school, and we are very multicultural, but we still call the holidays Christmas Break, and Easter Holidays. I would think Hogwarts is probably the same way: holidays called one thing, but meant to be celebrated in diverse ways.

[FoolOnTheHill]

Well I'm Buddhist and still celebrate Christmas....in the presents decorations and food sense. It just depends on the individuals whether they celebrate Christmas just like in real life. I agree, Hogwarts is just like any other school, with varieties of religions. But it's obviously not very important in the books.

[Kneazle]

I've merged your thread with another about Religion in WW.

[HPviolinist85]

I think that JKR was really smart not to mention God in her series or at least didn't really make it so obvious. She didn't just go out and say something like......

"We're going to Catholic mass Harry, and then after that, we're going to pray the rosary" said Ron in great excitement

I think she would get even more critisized if she did anything like that. I think she acknowleges a sort of God through things like Sirius being the godfather and Lily leaving a trace of her loving sacrifice with Harry. This book is supposed to be fun. Everyone reads into it WAY too much

[Cat]

Originally posted by Meli (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=194267#post194267))
I bet that they have religons. But I have a question, if you were Jewish, or Hindu or someother belief and you what to Hogwarts...Would you have to celebrate Christmas?


No, but you'd get a long holiday AND they might let you off for other special holidays as well. Bargain!

[stellaluna]

Originally posted by HogwartsChaplain (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=132374#post132374))
Actually, it's now a referral thread in Hogwarts Chapel, so people can find other threads where connections between religion and HP are discussed.


I know that, and I'm very thankful for it :smile:.

---

I think, that Christmas Holidays etc. are there because most of the students are christian. They're just the majority in Europe (I guess). That doesn't mean everyone has to celebrate it. The others, Hindi, Moslems, Atheists, whatever may only have holidays.
It's the same at my school, at our schools, I believe.

Well, now, if a minority- Religion in Hogwarts has to celebrate something, maybe they are allowed to be off school a couple of days. Hogwarts does seem quite tolerant to me there.

[sylistra]

i apologize if this is in the wrong forum -- i'm still trying to get a hang of categorizing. I searched but couldn't find anything on religions in this sense.. only debates and things not concerning the story or characters.

The Great Hall is decorated for the holidays and there is a Christmas dinner. Does that mean they're all christians? I understand that wizards in other countries could have different beliefs. Or are the decorated trees and snow simply seasonal?

I know the history of seasonal symbols and where their roots are, btw :] which would be fitting. Just asking if perhaps they do follow any belief systems.

(And also, Arthur and Molly send everyone Christmas gifts.)

[Hotmama2]

It's hard to know with JK - but it could be "go with what everyone else does!" lol

[Mandragora]

Hmmmm... lot's of thoughts, so hard to organize. First has anybody heard of Eddie Izzard? He's a british comedian, and in his act "Dressed to kill" he makes a very interesting statment about Easter and Christmas...I suggest you check it out, but the gist is that Easter and Christmas in the 'bunnies-chocolate eggs-santa-fir tree' sence, dosent have a lot to do with Easter and Christmas in the 'Jesus was born on one died(and risen) on the other' sence. And it is slightly odd that the pagens had celebrations around the same time. So if one wanted to they could argue that Hogwarts is actually celebrating a form of the pagen holidays. However I do not wish to argue this case.

My opinion is that Hogwarts is kinda relaxed and groovy about religion. For example in sorcerer's stone,

"'How many days you got left until yer holidays" Hagrid asked.'
"'Just one," said Hermione'

I noted that this was in mid-December, and I thought 'Hermione is Jewish?" but I relized that he ment like 'vacation' holidays. But that does bring up a point, we dont even know for sure the religion of the three main charecters. For all we know Hermione could be Jewish. And what about the Patel twins? though it might be a tad steryotipical of me to guess thier religion based on thier name, isn't it likely that they may be Hindu?

One more thought provoking idea, even though American schools arn't allowed to demonstrate one religion because of the seperation of church and state thing, they will still put up christmas trees, and little paper bunnies, but not little paper buddahs or whathave you. Just a thought, but maybe Hogwarts is doing the same thing.

Oh, darn, I've forgotten what my point is, oh well, just somthing to think about I guess!;D

[Midnightsfire]

Originally posted by Mandragora (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=379935#post379935))
Hmmmm... lot's of thoughts, so hard to organize.


Try here: Ancient Similarities in the Jesus story (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9324)

[Paquita]

It seems to me that there is religion in the wizarding world. Surely those who are religious would follow the major religions of the world. Obviously, J.K. Rowling places hints of this in the Godfather, Christmas, Easter, Fat Friar etc... references. I find it interesting that no mention is made to the full moon (for certain druid rites). THe only reference to the full moon is in PoA regarding Remus Lupin's transformation.

Finally, I'd like to point out, that when Harry or his friends, or the Order, or Dumbledore prevail, it is due to those human character traits of bravery, intellect, compassion, etc... not due to spells.

Since I'm getting a bit far afield, I will take Pastor Evelyn's suggestion of checking the other thread to add my thoughts! By the way, that is a wonderful paper!

[marspeach]

I guess wizards have the same wizards as Muggles. The Fat Friar is a friar, some of the ghosts at the Deathday party were nuns. There you go.

[Constant Vigilance]

I think this thread belongs here: it's about OotP but it could go in Howarts Chapel. It may be moved.

I was surprised when Harry asked Sir Nicholas what happens after death. It struck me as a religious disscution, something I had never seen in the HP books. JKR seems to focus on basic values and issues not in religion and Harry Potter is notable for the absence of religion, compare to works like Narnia Chronicles & His Dark Materials.
How ever it might be that JKR wants to discuss religion in the next books. I was surprised Harry had no idea of what happens after death. He has no concept of an afterlife, save for ghosts. This is weird. I can't think of any religion, or religious like filosophy that has no concept of the afterlife. It's really a basic tenneth of belief sistems. People either belive in eternal life (or ressurrection, reincarnation, or joinig the force or waterver) or think you just die and that's the end of the story. (You can also doubt between the 2 choices like Hamlet).
But Harry has no opinion on this subject. I think that's strange. I read a fanfic where the author said Harry had no religion but still belived in God. That could make sense, lots of people feel that way. The Dursleys probably have not given Harry any religious education because they simply don't care about him, so he might be in the dark because of that.
With the death of his godfather and the Veil in the MoM Harry has a need to know what happens after death. Is he going for a philosofical solution or a religious one? Why did he not ask this question sooner, for example when he saw his parents in the mirror of Erised? Does he whant his parents to be in heaven? Will he search for God? Is Hermionie religious?
Do you think Book 6 will deal with religion? What are your thougths?

[lilypotter11]

i dont really know if harry has time to worry about religion when voldemort is running loose, but i think its weird that hogwarts celebrates christmas since they r all witches and wizards (not that i think it should matter! im all for it! its just some people think its strange)

[Chan]

But maybe it's like this. He believed that you die and that's it. But now, that he has seen ghosts he's beginning to doubt what he believed before and he wants to know how it really is.

[A.M.]

I think it really doesn't have any relevance. Does it really matter if Harry is a pagan or a Christian?

[PhoenixUK]

When Harry was at a Muggle primary school he would have received religious education, but when he received his Hogwarts letter it was a Sunday morning, but Harry was not at church.

JKR attends the Church of Scotland. My guess is that there would be places of worship in Hogwarts, but since Harry does not attend it's not mentioned in the books.

[Hpmons]

I think the relavance of the whole Death thing was because it is important in the books - Death.

I cant find the quote at the moment, but JKR said that if people knew about her religious beliefs, they may be able to guess more about whats coming up in future books.
I dont think religion is going to play a part in the books. But religious ideas will be featured, and these will probably reflect JKR own beliefs on life after death, and other things, including fundamental questions and ideas (Time, Death, the Universe...Most things studied in the Department of Mysteries are to do with fundamental ideas).

I dont think any of the characters are religious as such. But they would probably consider themselves either Christians or atheist. Most people I know are Christians who never go to church (some have only gone for their baptism, and never since).

[Cat]

Even if J. K. Rowling intended Harry to be a Christian, nothing is really being said about his thoughts on any afterlife there. He was upset, angry and standing in front of a magical animate dead man. Oh, and he's young. If he had been sure and content in the situation, it wouldn't have been believable.

I don't think religion will feature into the plot in any way. J. K. Rowling's beliefs might - and probably already have - but that's different. We don't need to know which characters are devout and who goes to church and so on. It's not a story about religion (which is not to say that it defies the whole matter).

[paperflowergirl]

Pardon me if this is a bit long, but I had a lot of ideas, and so I formed them into a formal essay. Enjoy and please tell me what you think.
I would just like to extend further the idea of religious themes and references and the role they play in the HP books. As we all know, there are no explicit references to a particular religion in the books. The closest we get are witch-burnings, Harry having a god-father, and of course, his question about what happens after death. Does this mean the books are not about religion? Although many would argue that this is the case and that message of the books is instead purely a moral one, I propose that this is not the case.
For those who have read the lord of the rings and the Narnia books, you will know that none of these books mention religion explicitly (as in ‘Christianity’ or ‘Islam’ etc.) but that the very core of the story is religion, in these cases Christianity. In a similar way JKR has purposefully not given Harry or the other characters a definite religion, because the books are not about endorsing a certain kind of religious doctrine. Rather they are about the general concepts and history that is common to all religion. This is closely tied in to more easily identifiable themes such as moral values (lessons of courage, loyalty, trust, honesty, etc are very central). Among these themes is also that of death. In every book Harry is confronted with certain aspects of death, whether it is Voldemorts attempts to evade it, his own fear of it, the loss and grief it can cause, etc.
In the books there are plenty of religious themes. However, they are not as overly symbolic and allegorical as those used by CS Lewis in the Narnia books. The lines between good and evil in the Narnia books are quite clear – the Lion vs. the White Witch, both of which have very unambiguous meanings and significances. While the difference between good and evil are central to the HP books, the lines are quite complex. One example of this is Harrys realization that being evil does not mean you are a death-eater (Umbridge) and being a DE does not mean you are purely evil (an example being Sirius’ younger brother Regulus, who wanted to leave once he understood what it was all about). In this respect Snape is a mystery in himself that continuously makes the reader evaluate and re-evaluate the definition of good and evil, trying to figure out the Potions Professors personality.
The HP books are also different from the religious fantasy of Tolkien. Many youth reading the LotR trilogy do not see it at first (I certainly did not) but the sacrifice and suffering that Frodo goes through to save the world from the evil of the Ring and thus from Sauron is a re-telling / symbolic of the sacrifice and suffering of Christ dying on the cross for our sins. The contrast this makes with JKR is that her religious themes are not drawn solely from Christianity, even though she herself is a Christian.
There certainly are many religious themes in the books that have a clear origin in Christianity, but there are also other religious traditions included, and JKR has also used several pan-religious elements. I will present some examples to give a better idea of what I am talking about.
Dumbledore is the personification of God-like qualities in that he looks just like the Christian God has been portrayed / imagined in European tradition for centuries – an old man with long white / silver hair and sparkling eyes. His personality contains mildness and forgiveness but also an immense amount of power and a sense of justice. He is virtually all-knowing.
The three wizards Dumbledore, McGonnagal, and Hagrid standing over baby Harry in the first chapter of PS/SS is very reminiscent of the three magi coming to see the Christ Child in Bethlehem, especially in light of certain newly revealed prophesies about how Harry is to rid the world of evil (Voldemort).
Voldemort is of course the personification of evil, and being able to speak Parseltongue and having snake-like facial features, his symbol is the snake, just like the snake is the symbol of the devil / Satan in the Bible, in which form he tricked Eva into eating the forbidden fruit in Eden.

I could honestly go on and on, but I thought it would be more interesting to also discuss some non-Christian religious references and themes.
Harry’s name is also the name of the Hindu god Vishnu (a.k.a. Hari), who sends his avatars to the world to fight evil in the world whenever it becomes too strong. These avatars include both Krishna and Buddha, and come to earth in the same way as Harry – seemingly normal people who have been given a quite extraordinary task that they, with divine assistance, must complete.
This is of course the story of any religion – God or a divine being of some sort sends his special representative (prophet, messenger, incarnation, etc) to earth to help mankind overcome its troubles.

The phoenix is a symbol used in many religions, and in Hinduism it is both the symbol and steed of Vishnu. The relationship between Dumbledore and Fawkes is the same as that between Vishnu and his phoenix, Garuda. The phoenix’s is a symbol of resurrection in many cultures and religions, and it seems that JKR has found many of these trans-religious symbols and used them quite centrally in the books. Here are some of the others:
The Griffin is an ancient mythical being with its roots in Zoroastrianism (practiced in ancient Persia and by some presently in India). It was very often depicted as holding a flaming goblet, that much later became identified with the Grail in England in the Middle Ages. Heard of Gryffin-dor anyone? Do you know of someone going through a lot of trouble in their quest for a flaming goblet?
The philosophers stone is another example of a religious /mythical concept that just like the phoenix comes from a very wide background. All the way from the Far East to the Middle East to Europe has the Philosophers Stone, and the Elixir / Water of Life, that it can produce been part of myth and religion, and references to it can be found in religious literature of many kinds (Islam, Bahai, Hinduism, and probably others I am not aware of). In the books we see this as yet another theme linking to both religion and death, which seems to develop further as a central theme as the plot of the books continue to unfold.

From all of these references it seems that JKR has indeed continued the British trend pioneered by Tolkien and Lewis of writing excellent fantasy around religious themes. However, she has not limited herself to Christianity, but is rather telling a tale about the nature of religious revelation and the eternal battle between good and evil from a much more universal point of view.
By drawing on such a wide scope of sources she has not been unoriginal or merely eclectic like some people claim, but she has combined all of these elements to present to the reader her unique and ingenious version of a universal tale that mankind does not tire from hearing. The story of how Chosen Ones come to rid the world of evil and save mankind has been told and retold since the beginning stories, and will probably continue to the end of them.

[M a r v o l o]

I always assumed he was aetheist.. As in he did not believe in any type of God. Atleast it's never been mentioned that he does.

[harp230]

I alway took the books to leave religon in a vague sence to avoid alienating anyone or offending anyone (well save those who are particullarily into some religon that is just offended by the word witch, but that is another discussion). religon is left to intrepretation. I personally see most of the character with basic christian befiefs(including god)but just do not attend a particular church.
Could be quite possible that athiesm is present because we haven't seen clearly declared beliefs.

[paperflowergirl]

I dont think the absense of clearly expressed beliefs means that there is nothing about religion there. many stories about religion does not mention it by name - Lord of the Rings is one example of this.

[Houler_7S]

Well I think that well no wixzard goes to church on school or we never heard about it and the dursleys too but anybody can answer how was lily and james marriage

[Cat]

I dont think the absense of clearly expressed beliefs means that there is nothing about religion there. many stories about religion does not mention it by name - Lord of the Rings is one example of this.

I don't think LOTR is 'about religion', though. People write books saying how strictly Bible based it, but that doesn't make it so.

By the way, there are the same kinds of books on Harry Potter. There are a few things that people could say are Biblical themes, but then they get pretty vague. I think Harry Potter is more moral than religious. I don't think we're seeing Narnia yet.

[The Green Fool]

I think Harry Potter is more moral than religious.

Good Point!!! :)

I think the reason people can find parallels is because, essentially, the HP story is one of 'good vs evil' and, as such, there will always be certain themes which are revisited.

[Constant Vigilance]

Great Post Paperflowergirl! I think you interpretation is very accurate. All this vast background JKR puts in her stories is very interesting. I could not see it all at first, but it's definitively there. The part on Fawkes was new to me.

[paperflowergirl]

Cat and the green fool - did you read my essay? all of it? If you want me to I could seriously go on for quite a lot longer. Saying that JKR has used religion in the book does of course not mean that it is not highly moral. I have not seen many books where morals are presented in a more central manner than in HP.
Take a look at this:

Originally from The Times of London, late June 2002

Meanwhile, Rowling remains a member of the Church of Scotland and keeps saying, “I believe in God, not magic.” She also has stated that the magical elements in her books come from her studies in British folklore. This means she is trying to tap some of the same wellsprings as C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein and even Charles Dickens.

Last year, Rowling told a Canadian reporter that she is a Christian and that this “seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I’ve been asked if I believe in God, I’ve said, ‘yes,’ because I do. But no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that and, I have to say that does suit me. ... If I talk too freely about that, I think the intelligent reader-- whether 10 or 60-- will be able to guess what is coming in the books.”

Now, having thought a lot about what this comment must signify I cannot say that I am able to guess what is going to happen in the books, but I have realized that there is a depth there that I did not expect at first.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I agree with Cat - the books aren't really religious at all. Of course they have SOME relation to the Boble - but that's because any moral book will have some relation to the bible. I disagree with the assertion that HP was written "around religious themes" - it was written around moral themes. DD definitely isn't a representation of God - he's not infallible, as shown in Book 5. Harry is definitely not a Christ figure - look at his Crucio spell: he wants revenge. He will not turn the other cheek. Will he change? Maybe. But he won't be resurrected or strung up and killed before all to see. You could find parallels between HP and the Bible, but they are solely coincidental - the proper parallels are between HP and any moral, "love over hate," "good over evil" text - the bible among them.

[paperflowergirl]

Interesting comment on Dumbledore and fallability and Harry and hiw want for revenge. Here is how I see it, but I am not claiming that this is the only or right way to see it: I dont think JKR intended Dumbledore to /be/ God, but rather to be a personification of god-like qualities (I did not express this contrast very well in my essay - sorry) Because this is a work of fiction, and JKR is a good author, she knows better than to make characters perfect, even though they represent something that is infallible. The same concept does of course apply to Harry.
I am curious what other proofs you see as indicating that this does not have religious relevanse, and especially how you would explain what she meant in the interview.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

The three magi comparison is interesting, and valid to an extent, but Harry is not a savior, is not Christ in any way. Christ took on all the sins of all the people, he WANTED to suffer. Harry, on the other hand, would rather NOT be human than suffer. He HATES pain - Jesus was willing to take on more.

LV is the personification of evil, and he is symbolized by the snake, and the Serpent was Satan in the Garden of Eden, but it is just as easy to explain the LV-snake relationship with the fact that snakes have been historically regarded as the bad part of human nature as to explain that snakes are representative of the bad part of religion.

And finally, about the flaming goblet, Harry was not on a quest for the goblet - he didn't care about it at all. The goblet put him in a tournament. If anything, he was in a quest for the Triwizard Cup, but this was definitely not flaming, and Harry really was trying to get through the tasks, not win the tournament.

To sum up: JKR took much of what has surfaced in HP from a variety of mythological sources. She has included things from all over myths from all over the world. The bible, of course, is the most visible source of some of these myths. It is natural that some things in HP are going to be from the bible, but I don't think that the overall point of the books is a religious one. Unlike Narnia, Christianity is just an undercurrent in HP, not the overriding influence.

[paperflowergirl]

I think your last argument is relevant. I still believe the references are there (although Harry does not /like/ to suffer, he has a 'saving people thing' and will risk anything to save others and he and the other champions are certainly on a definite quest after the goblet of fire in the last triwizarding test - the maze.)
While I still believe that she has intentionally put religious symbols and themes in the books, due to both the books themselves and some of her quite clear statements, I would say that the best stance an opponent of my point of view could take was to say that the religious elements are included just like there are many many mythological and folkloric elements. (sorry for that looong sentence) There certainly are many elements from mythology (names of teachers, the strong parallel between the Chamber and Hades, mythical beasts, etc). Hesdead-dealwithit has already said some of this.
And to continue my own side of the argument I would say that yes, this is certainly the case - there is plenty of mythology and non-religious references in addition to religious ones. However, I have more to add. I see the difference as being between how central these themes are to the story, and that distinction can of course only be made by subjective judgment. Our whole discussion is of course made much more difficult by the fact that we only have 5/7ths of the series, and JKR is the master of surprises and twisting plot structures.
However, working with what we have, I would say that the revelation of the prophesy is a /very/ fundamental concept that has been driving the plot since the first chapter even though we have not know about it. For me the prophecy reminds me of the prophesies that are made before the coming of any Messenger from God – Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Baha’u’llah – they all fulfilled prophesies. There is not only the fact that there was such a prophesy, but also the nature of it – to rid the world from evil and therefore be a champion of good who is in the possession of powers that we normal people do not have.
The fundamental conflict in the book is that between good and evil – Harry and Dumbledore versus Voldemort. The lion (animal of Gryffindor house) is a very much used symbol of Christ (e.g. Narnia) as is the Phoenix (because of the resurrection). As already mentioned the snake is closely associated with the devil, especially in the Jewish and Christian religion. The snake is also portrayed negatively in many mythologies, so it is hard for us to know where JKR took the inspiration from – my guess is that she took it from both religion and mythology.
Also in Harrys family is religion very much present. The lily (name of his mother) is the symbol of the Virgin Mary and there is hardly a painting made of her that does not also feature lilies. Thus Harry’s divine origins seem to yet again be reinforced. But Harrys father also contributes to this - the first apostle to die for his faith in Jesus in the Bible was James, just like James Potter was the first to die in order to protect Harry.
To me these elements are among ones that touch the closest on the core of the story, and they are also the ones that have the strongest religious content. For example Minerva McGonnagal who is named after a Roman goddess is not nearly as central and important as Lily, who is named after the Virgin Mother herself.
Any thoughts?

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Good points - you're starting to convince me - a little.

First about the goblet of fire - the goblet was what started the tournament, but then its flame went out and it was put away. The goblet had no bearing on the tournament after it chose the champions. The triwizard cup, however, symbolized winning the tournament, and you could say it was what the quest was for, if you want to read the maze as a quest. You could still read the triwizard cup as the holy grail, but it was not flaming, like the goblet of fire.

Just wanted to get that point across. Now on to everything else.

I don't think it can be denied that much of the BASIS for HP comes from mythology rather than the Bible. I'm talking about everyday life and the world of HP as opposed to the Harry-centric books that we know. For example, many of the animals from the Care of Magical Creatures class come from non-Christian mythology. The whole divination-astrology-astronomy study at Hogwarts is all non-Christian. Names as far reaching from Parvati to Minerva, from Sirius to Lupin all have non-Christian influences. There are lots of other examples, with not enough space to put them all in.

Anyway, paperflowergirl's argument is that the Christian influences are the overriding theme over this. It's a valid argument, but there are multiple ways to combat it. For one, while Harry may like to, even consider his duty to, save other people, it is in a very different way than Jesus's saving people. Jesus saved people from falling into evil - Harry saves them from being killed from the OUTSIDE by evil. Harry does not want to take other's troubles onto himself. IF anything - he wants to be left alone.

[paperflowergirl]

ok, sorry about that whole triwizard cup - goblet of fire mix up. I got confused and thought of them as one and the same, and so you are right, the quest for the goblet can only be seen in a figurative way, not in a literal manner.
I think another reason that it is hard to separate what comes from mythology and what comes from religion in the books is that the lore of religion and the lore of mythology / folklore are not separate themselves, or have many common elements. I mean, prophesies are not unique to religion (think about the oracle at Delphi from Greek mythology).
I guess I view the difference in being between underlying structure and surface decoration, like the body versus the clothes you put on it. Seeing the body vs. the pattern in the clothes requires different modes of looking.
I think that perhaps the reason I sometimes meet very strong opposition when I voice my point of view on religion in the books, is that people love the books the way they are, and they don’t want to hear that they are actually trying to indoctrinate something other than being a good person. I can sympathize with that, and I feel the same. I do not think that JKR is trying to indoctrinate anything - not her religious view, not witchcraft, not disrespect for authorities. But all writing (at least fiction) is personal, and we therefore see expressed in the books things that are very important to the author, such as her faith, her experience with death, her admiration of courage and loyalty. We also see smaller elements such as her depression (the dementors), Gilderoy Lockheart being based on a person she knows, Rita Skeeter being extra annoying etc.

I really want to thank you, hesdead-dealwithit, for respectfully challenging my points of view instead of just dismissing them like most have. It has really made me think, re-think, and develop my ideas further. The fact that we have different opinions on some things can really be a source of growth and new understanding when they are expressed in the right manner! :o)

Do you think this close relation between the books and religion (regardless of how central you see it) can have something to do the popularity of the books? I mean, the fundamental story-line of a hero with special powers who is destined to combat evil is a very very old one. It is retold in countless ways in myth, religion, sagas, literature, fairy-tales, etc. I think the reason is that we do not tire of hearing it. It gives hope.

[HogwartsChaplain]

...Harry is not a savior, is not Christ in any way. Christ took on all the sins of all the people, he WANTED to suffer. Harry, on the other hand, would rather NOT be human than suffer. He HATES pain - Jesus was willing to take on more.

Jesus was willing to take the suffering of the world on himself, but I think it's a mistake to say Jesus "wanted" to suffer. For instance, in Luke 22:42, Jesus said, "Father, if you are willing remove this cup [of suffering] from me; yet not my will but yours be done."

Playing devil's advocate (an interesting position for a pastor... ;) ), Harry doesn't want to suffer, but several times in the books so far, he was willing to take on suffering for the sake of other people. I'm not suggesting that Harry IS a Christ-figure, only that your argument doesn't hold water for me.

[Prof.Aze]

I don't think they have any religion in the wizarding world... Becuase if they have a religion then we should be seeing churches in Diagon Alley or somewhere or maybe in Hogsmeade perhaps... Or if they really have religion then a praying scene between the character should be read in the books. But since we don't see one then i concluded to myself that there is no religion in the wizarding world. :)

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

I have this bizarre idea that maybe Merlin was Jesus. I mean Jesus did great things and powerful magic (that's how Muggles interpret it) but the wizarding world knows what magic is and Merlin did some very good magic so maybe there linked Jesus and Merlin, both of them are seen as high peoplein society.

[HogwartsChaplain]

I don't think they have any religion in the wizarding world... Because if they have a religion then we should be seeing churches in Diagon Alley or somewhere or maybe in Hogsmeade perhaps... Or if they really have religion then a praying scene between the character should be read in the books. But since we don't see one then I concluded to myself that there is no religion in the wizarding world.
And yet... every year (every book), JKR shows us new places-- at Hogwarts, Hogsmeade, Diagon Alley, and other places. The absence of places of worship so far does not necessarily mean a lack of places of worship altogether.

Same thing with prayer. Sometimes prayer is a group thing, sometimes private. How are we to know what people are doing during their private time? Perhaps some wizards and witches pray every night before bed.

Not trying to make a case for it, but....

[hesdead-dealwithit]

For there to be religion in HP, it has to be introduced in the last two books. Agreed? Now, if it is going to be introduced in the last two books, it has to have at least some bearing on the plot. Agreed? In the first few books, JKR could do plenty of setting the scene, creating the world and environment. But we're past that stage. The only new things about wizard culture that can be introduced have to be both obscure in the culture, so we wouldn't have seen them, and important enough to the plot to interrupt the story to put them in. I don't think religion fits these characteristics, so I don't think we'll be seeing it.

[Jonny Boy]

I think they're the same as in the muggle world.

[paperflowergirl]

I think it is unlikely that we will see a specific religion being focused upon in the books. I mean, there are a direct references to christianity, one being St. Mungo's, which is obviously named after a saint. However, I think, like other people have mentioned, that for the wizarding community to belong to any specific religion would break with the style of the books.
However, that does not mean there isn't religion in the books. I think a lot of issues that religions deal with very specifically - death, the soul, sacrifice, love, the battle between good and evil, all of which have featured very centrally to the story, will become increasingly important.
One thing all religions deal with is the notion of death and what happens afterwards. The details of the after-life takes many different forms from religion to religion, but they all deal with it. JKR is perhaps trying to show us her understanding of this. The Veil is of course of central importance to the development of this theme, but we've seen it earlier also - Dumbledore tells Harry that his parents are alive in him. We also learn about ghosts, about the priori incantatem, etc, all of which comment on death in some way or other.
The books can therefore be seen as including religion, or perhaps a better word is spirituality, or the notion of spiritual aspects to our world.
Then there are all the references and symbols that deal with religion, including names, colors, animals, etc.

[RectilinearP]

I think that wizards have religion like muggles do. Otherwise, why the celebrations of Christmas? At the very least the wizards with muggle relatives will likely have the same religion as their relatives.

Perhaps JKR simply felt it wasn't important enough to the story to specifically bring up religion. She doesn't ever mention Harry taking a bath, except in the prefects bathroom in GOF, but that doesn't mean Harry doesn't bathe.

(Seriously, am I the only one bothered by the fact that it reads like Harry always rolls out of bed and immediately gets dressed?)

[Thuldorn]

My original question wasn't whether there's religion in JKR's world, but just in the wizarding world. The Fat Friar was just the example I was looking for. Tho, just because he was a friar, doesn't mean he was magical. He's in Hogwarts? Yeah, but like its been brought up, its not a religious school so why's he there? That could probably be a topic in itself I think. :)


Actually your question is sort of answered in book 5. At the end when Harry asks Nearly Headless Nick about ghosts Nick tells Harry that only wizards can become ghosts therefor the Fat Friar must have been a wizard, Why would he be in Hogwarts?, Probably because he went to school there.

Personally I think we can infer that the wizarding community has the same religions as the muggle world, all the varieties with certain regions being dominated by their local religions, i.e. a school in the mid-east would probably be Muslim and follow Muslim holidays.

I don't think we will ever see any overt references to religion such as Churches and praying tho. I think for a work of fiction that would stir way to much controversy.

My big question is why shouldn't Wizards believe in God? I live in the good ole USA, I have a computer and electricity and can do all sorts of things that people living in remote parts of the world either can not do or seem magical to them. Wizards can harness mystical powers to do their bidding but they still need tools to do it, it's made very clear in the books that Wizards need to have their wands in their hands to cast spells (will be interesting to see what becomes of Harry doing the lumus spell without his wand). When casting spells they can, and often do, miss.

It's very easy to see how they could accept God, God can do everything they can and more without the aid of tools (wands).

As for someone comparing Jesus to Merlin, I don't think so. I think the references to Merlin are to the King Arthurian legend based Merlin, and even King arthur was a Christian. I think it's safe to say that the Christian Wizards know that Jesus was far and away above them. While the non-beleivers probably say he was an attention grabbing show-off :p

I think the use of Magic in the world of Harry Potter is as anti-religious as the use of electricity in the modern world.

[ultimate sacrifice]

Here's a copy of my article on aspects of religion and Christianity in HP. Later I did some research on Saint Mungo's Hospital, but didn't save that in wordprocessing, so that's among the stuff lost from MuggleNetForums.

- ------------ -

Religious Aspects of Harry Potter
~ ~ ~ by Evelyn J.P. Weston


The basic story is a classic tale of good versus evil. One evil wizard says, "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it." But Harry and those on the side of good know otherwise, and the strong power they use to protect the good in their world is the same as the fruit of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

The Harry Potter books are entirely fictional. It is up to each individual to infer whatever religious identifications they see in the story and the characters. But there is much to be commended in Rowling's gripping tales of "the boy who lived."

- ------------- -

Just started reading in this thread. Got to this post and really enjoyed it! Terrific commentary, Hogwart's Chaplain! I couldn't agree more! I'll read on and chime in later. Looking forward to discussin' with ya'll!

[Optimus Prime]

I think that JKR will be pretty cautious with how much she gets into religious stuff, becasue it's a really sensitive subject for most people, and given that many fanatics already criticize her of witchcraft and satanism, she will be very reserved in how much she talks about any specific form of religion in the wizarding world.

It's not just a matter of plot, its a matter of politics.

[Katie_Bell]

I, personally, don't think that religion should even be mentioned in books that suit these age levels. I think it would take away from the book itself. Just becasue JK doesn't mention it doesn't mean it isn't there. I think n today's world religion is one of those touchy things and one false move and the whole world could be mad about it. I thinkin something so public, it is up to the people reading it to insert their own beliefs since there are so many. I personally, think that Harry is one of the most christian based characters I've seen in a book in a long time, but that is my view, I also have firends that don't feel this way becasue they don't believe in and God.

[Ilith]

I think no-one mentioned St Mungo's hospital.

[FirefightingMuggle]

I think that the reason why religion is not mentioned is because JKR is trying to stick to universal themes. Religion, while a universal theme, differs from place to place and person to person. Some people are Christians,Some people are Muslims, some are Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, Pagans, Satinists, Shinto, and there are a lot of others that I didn't mention. I think that picking one religion for the wizarding world to follow would break away a little bit from the universal-ness of the theming. There are things that are Christian, specifically Christmas. But I think that this is because JKR herself celebrates Christmas, so she is just reflecting that as the holiday of Choice for Harry to celebrate. There may very well be other students who celebrate Hannukah, Kwanza, or Ramadan, but we don't hear about them because they are not major influences in the plot.
Religion is important, and I'm sure there are a lot of people in the wizarding world who take it seriously, but I don't think that incorporating religion into the series would really help much to advance things as they are going right now.

[Ilith]

There are things that are Christian, specifically Christmas. But I think that this is because JKR herself celebrates Christmas, so she is just reflecting that as the holiday of Choice for Harry to celebrate.

I guess she chose Christmas for Hogwarts to celebrate because the school is in Scotland and though there are people of many nationalities living there, and also students of different backgrounds study at Hogwarts, Christianity is still the major religion in Scotland and other parts of Britain.

[adamgnome]

I don't believe most of them have a religion, you know since random churches and things tried to burn them in the midevil ages and stuff. o_O

Not to mention they already figured out life after death stuff...well they are ghosts and stuff...

(I have no idea-random rants for speclation is all i can give :P) :tu:

[Emeril12]

Well first of all, I don't think that the wizarding world would have the same religions as Muggles. Many of them might have taken up Muggle religions like Catholocism or Buddhism over the centuries, but I'm sure many of them also (families like the Malfoys who would never voluntarily associate themselves with Muggles) probably do not have Muggle religions.

Possibly Ms. Rowling herself is not very religious (this is just speculation) and didn't feel it was important to include this subject in the books? Remember that it is never mentioned that the Dursley's attend church or are religious, either. Personally, I am not very religious, so I had never even thought of this until reading this thread.

Perhaps Ms. Rowling will personaly impart her wisdom of the wizarding world upon us sometime. ;)

[Ilith]

I don't believe most of them have a religion, you know since random churches and things tried to burn them in the midevil ages and stuff. o_O

But some seemed to really enjoy the burning. Remember the witch Harry comes across when he studies for a Binns's summer homework. (Was it in PoA?)

[Obizo Samaruga]

While all religious references in the books could be explained away as merely references to British culture, you must remember that the wizards largely grew up away from mugggles and would, as a result, not be likely to follow the same exact culture. It would seem probable that wizards follow all the same religions as muggles, since wizards, as well as muggles, would likely be converted. It would seem that wizards born to muggle parents would get 11 years worth of religion and would likely not want to give this up when they entered the wizarding world--religion is something people feel strongly about. Of course, it could also be argued that this is how muggle culture entered, but it seems to me improbable that there is no religion in the wizarding world, or that they have their own religion (since they wouldn't celebrate "pagan" holidays). It seems most likely to me that they follow all the religions of the muggle world.

If there's a sort of Wizarding Office, and the wizards are in the government, they should also be loyal to Her Majesty the Queen and to the Church of England. Perhaps, they've been remained roman chatolics, but only the purebloods, as many aristocrats and supporters of Charles I and Charles II. By the way, the moral guideline and interpretation to the facts in the books, as given by JK Rowling, is absolutely compatible to the christian faith. Certainly a novel reflects also the author feelings. Perhaps is only JK Rowling who, during the everyday life, is not too much concerned about religion. Differently in comparison to CSS Lewis, whose strong roman catholic faith moved him to insert so many references to Jesus Christ in the Chronicles of Narnia (Aslan, the not tamed lion = Jesus Christ).

[Ilith]

If there's a sort of Wizarding Office, and the wizards are in the government, they should also be loyal to Her Majesty the Queen and to the Church of England. Perhaps, they've been remained roman chatolics, but only the purebloods, as many aristocrats and supporters of Charles I and Charles II.

:welcome: , Obizo Samaruga!

I don't think they are loyal to any Muggle institution. They may be in contact with some, but they are generally pretty ignorant of the ways of Muggles.

[dhfroggy11]

well, obviusly not christian, catholic, etc.

[Blossom]

I've jst always seen them as that annoying european christian but with pagen background religion (lol, i am one of those my self). the celebrate halloween and easter (with easter eggs) and stuff.

[Ilith]

I don't think they are loyal to any Muggle institution. They may be in contact with some, but they are generally pretty ignorant of the ways of Muggles.

Oh dear me! I forgot the muggle-born wizards. Well, the Ministry of Magic tries to be in no contact with Muggle institutions. I don't know what are the feelings of parents who are fundamentalists of any religion and whose child gets an invitation to Hogwarts.

[bowlwoman]

I don't think "religion" has anything to do with the wizarding world. Morality, yes, but not religion.

There is an important distinction between the two:

Religion
• noun
1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
2 a particular system of faith and worship.

Morality
• noun (pl. moralities)
1 principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.
2 moral behaviour.
3 the extent to which an action is right or wrong.
4 a system of values and moral principles.

(source, Compact Oxford English Dictionary, www.askoxford.com )

We don't see any aspect of religion in the series, and I don't think we should. Morality is there in spades, as it should be. It isn't Rowling's place to try to convert the children (and adults) who read her stories into a particular sect of religious thought. She is providing a good foundation on what constitutes good and evil in her stores, then leaves it up to her readers to construct that into their own system of principles and beliefs.

Morality is a very important aspect of religion, but nowdays too many people are using the terms interchangeably. They're NOT the same thing. Religion is based on tradition, customs, culture, dogma and yes, politics. It changes a little over the years, but the basic values are the same in most religions as they were 1000 years ago. Morality, on the other hand, is subjective and changes as society changes. There is much sociable acceptable behavior today that no one would have considered OK 20 years ago.

Rowling is inventing a FICTION story based on folklore, mythology and supersitition. This has nothing to do with the real world. That people try to use the stories as vehicles to proselytize is not in the spirit of the story.

bowlwoman

[Rosezgard3n]

Well I think everyone will have their own point of view on this one. The ones that are Catholics will want HP characters to be Cartholics, same with Christians, Jews, etc.

But just to answer this, I don't think they'd be in any religion that considers reincarnation, since JK hasn't said anything on this mater.
I think they could be Catholic or Chrisian since Harry was baptized.

And like i said, everyone should believe what they feel it's good.

[Prometheus]

Was Harry baptised? I know Sirius was made his godfather, but does it actually say that Harry was baptised?

Just building on the reincarnation thing, they don't celebrate any Eastern holiday's either, but they do celebrate Christmas and Easter.

Though who's to say the wizarding world has to be Christian, Islamic or any other religion? Maybe they believe in something completely different? The only thing someone really has to believe as far as religion is concerned is how we got here- how the universe was created etc. They could be evolutionists, or they might believe that a God created the world... they don't necessarily have to believe any 'muggle' religion. They might only think Jesus was a wizard, or something like that?

[Ilith]

I think they could be Catholic or Chrisian since Harry was baptized.

The fact that Harry had a godfather doesn't indicate that he was baptized. You get a godfather or a godmother at many rites of passage or initiations. Or just when you have someone who could take care of you.

[doadpadfoot]

do they have a religion? for some reason, the weasleys seem like the family that would go to church every sunday. i don't know why! they just seem that :agree: way

[HogwartsChaplain]

Was Harry baptised? I know Sirius was made his godfather, but does it actually say that Harry was baptised?
No, the books do not say that Harry was baptized. As I mentioned in my article, Wiccan rituals also include godfathers. But there seem to be more casual references to Christian traditions than Pagan traditions throughout the HP books.

[dementorskiss]

I don't think "religion" has anything to do with the wizarding world. Morality, yes, but not religion.

There is an important distinction between the two:

Religion
• noun
1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
2 a particular system of faith and worship.

Morality
• noun (pl. moralities)
1 principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.
2 moral behaviour.
3 the extent to which an action is right or wrong.
4 a system of values and moral principles.

(source, Compact Oxford English Dictionary, www.askoxford.com )

We don't see any aspect of religion in the series, and I don't think we should. Morality is there in spades, as it should be. It isn't Rowling's place to try to convert the children (and adults) who read her stories into a particular sect of religious thought. She is providing a good foundation on what constitutes good and evil in her stores, then leaves it up to her readers to construct that into their own system of principles and beliefs.

Morality is a very important aspect of religion, but nowdays too many people are using the terms interchangeably. They're NOT the same thing. Religion is based on tradition, customs, culture, dogma and yes, politics. It changes a little over the years, but the basic values are the same in most religions as they were 1000 years ago. Morality, on the other hand, is subjective and changes as society changes. There is much sociable acceptable behavior today that no one would have considered OK 20 years ago.

Rowling is inventing a FICTION story based on folklore, mythology and supersitition. This has nothing to do with the real world. That people try to use the stories as vehicles to proselytize is not in the spirit of the story.

bowlwoman


Brilliant! Hermione would be proud. I don't see why adding religion to the Harry Potter series would make any positive diferences. Those that, foolishly, burn Rowlings books would not be converted and adding religion would most likely dull the series thus causing her to lose many fans. The use of Christmas, Halloween and Easter is probably just following the cultures of British schools. Also she probably is Christian and is just, sub-conciously, using the holidays for parties and breaks.

[Knut4UrThghts]

[QUOTE=The Oracle]My original question wasn't whether there's religion in JKR's world, but just in the wizarding world. The Fat Friar was just the example I was looking for. Tho, just because he was a friar, doesn't mean he was magical. He's in Hogwarts? Yeah, but like its been brought up, its not a religious school so why's he there? That could probably be a topic in itself I think. :)



In OofP, Nearly-Headless Nick tells Harry that only wizards can come back as ghosts, so the "Fat Friar" wasn't just a friar, he was a wizard, too. Also, there is a group of nuns at Sir Nick's "deathday" party. So the "ghostly nuns" would have been witches as well.


If you were raised in a Christian family, went to church every Sunday, etc etc, and you got a letter from Hogwarts, what would you think? Would you go? So, say you do go and find out that the world you know of is so limited. Potions, charms, transfigurations...things that would or could challenge God. Immortality is one of them. There's many reasons (in my mind) that you could question your religion, any religion after you learn about the magical world. So many religious stories might be explained through the use of magic.


I don't view the characters are "learning" witchcraft per se, but rather expanding upon the gifts they were born with. Harry demonstrated magical ability long before he knew about Hogwarts, he just didn't know it was magic instead of strange coincidences (his hair growing back overnight, jumping on to the school roof to hide from Dudley, the glass in the boa's window, etc.) In my view, Harry doesn't go to Hogwarts to become a wizard, he is one, and now he has to learn how to use his gifts properly and legally -- so, in a sense, he is also going to learn morals, ethics and values while at Hogwarts. I think from the references in the books, it is safe to say that most witches and wizards are traditional Christians as the school celebrates several religious holidays (Christmas and Easter).

[Earendil]

My sister brought up an interesting question the other day--do dark wizards "worship" Voldemort in any sense? It seems that Voldemort is styling himself to be a superhuman in some fashion. The cult-like nature of the Death Eaters seems to indicate that Voldemort would force them to recognize him as the greatest being in the universe, rather than any God.

As for the other aspects of religion in HP, I think it's fairly clear that JKR is trying not to make an issue out of it. Wizards do appear to follow the same religions as Muggles (celebrating Christmas and Easter, having "Saints", African wizards wearing turbans, etc.), although it does raise a question of how exactly they go about practicing their religion. Do, for example, the Weasleys simply go to a Muggle church? It seems that the Weasleys have only minimal interaction with Muggles, so I have a hard time picturing them being exposed to them every Sunday, since they seem continuously perplexed by things having to do with Muggles.

[FoxyDoxy]

I think j.K has very carefully avoided religion in the books because she wants them to appeal to everyone and not just a select group. The books central themes of love and good over evil apply to all humuans and can be aspired to by all faiths.
However when dealing with the subject of witchcraft and incorporating pagan mythology into the novels it is impossible not to have, on some level, elements of the 'old ways'. As a wiccan and a witch I have noticed many (slightly modified) practices that I myself use.

Also 'the yule ball at christmas'- yule was a pagan holiday until it was turned into christmas.

They recieve easter eggs with no mention of christ.easter (or ostra as we call it) is a celebration of the godess. The eggs and bunny came from a story of the godess turning into an egg laying rabbit to entertain children

Halloween (shamain) everyone knows about.

[Kneazle_Herder]

Although there are no references to any specific religious practices in the Harry Potter series, the overall feel of the stories seems to present a distinctly Christian worldview. In this way it can be compared to J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. Tolkien didn't set out to write a Christian story, but on re-reading it, he saw that his own beliefs had crept into the story and he edited it as such. There is no specific reference to any religion of any kind in LotR, and yet it is almost always hailed as a masterpiece of Christian literature. In the HP universe, magic is a natural, inborn ability, not something gained through dark rituals. To say that performing magic goes against God is like saying that Tolkien's elves were inherently evil because they were magical beings.

[FoxyDoxy]

magic is a natural, inborn ability, not something gained through dark rituals.
There is nothing dark about our rituals thank you!
There is no specific reference to any religion of any kind in LotR, and yet it is almost always hailed as a masterpiece of Christian literature
By the christians. I would argue that there is a fair amount of pagan folklore in there. The deep respect for nature and magic as well as its central theme of love fundamental Pagan beliefs

[Kneazle_Herder]

There is nothing dark about our rituals thank you!
I never said there was. I only mention dark rituals since this is the stance which the church has traditionally taken about magic in an effort to prove that anything not taught by the church (i.e. magic) is inherently evil. My point is simply that magic, as it exists in the HP universe is an inborn ability, and therefore cannot be condemned as "against God's will".

By the christians. I would argue that there is a fair amount of pagan folklore in there. The deep respect for nature and magic as well as its central theme of love fundamental Pagan beliefs
Indeed. I never said that was the way I would describe LotR. I agree that there is nothing in it which goes against Christian teachings, but I also can find nothing which specifically supports them either.

[FoxyDoxy]

Sorry it wasn't very clear. It looked as though it was your point of view and i get a bit testy when we're made out to be a bunch of evil Satan worshiping, kitty sacrificing, baby eating un-godly gits-I appologise.

[Dedalus Diggle]

Sorry it wasn't very clear. It looked as though it was your point of view and i get a bit testy when we're made out to be a bunch of evil Satan worshiping, kitty sacrificing, baby eating un-godly gits-I appologise.
Nobody said anything about eating babies. :lol:

[FoxyDoxy]

I was just exaggerating. It is actually someting I hear alot! I could never eat a baby..they're too hard to snatch :grumble:

[ComicBookWorm]

I don't think "religion" has anything to do with the wizarding world. Morality, yes, but not religion.

There is an important distinction between the two:

Religion
• noun
1 the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
2 a particular system of faith and worship.

Morality
• noun (pl. moralities)
1 principles concerning the distinction between right and wrong or good and bad behaviour.
2 moral behaviour.
3 the extent to which an action is right or wrong.
4 a system of values and moral principles.

(source, Compact Oxford English Dictionary, www.askoxford.com )

We don't see any aspect of religion in the series, and I don't think we should. Morality is there in spades, as it should be. It isn't Rowling's place to try to convert the children (and adults) who read her stories into a particular sect of religious thought. She is providing a good foundation on what constitutes good and evil in her stores, then leaves it up to her readers to construct that into their own system of principles and beliefs.

Morality is a very important aspect of religion, but nowdays too many people are using the terms interchangeably. They're NOT the same thing. Religion is based on tradition, customs, culture, dogma and yes, politics. It changes a little over the years, but the basic values are the same in most religions as they were 1000 years ago. Morality, on the other hand, is subjective and changes as society changes. There is much sociable acceptable behavior today that no one would have considered OK 20 years ago.

Rowling is inventing a FICTION story based on folklore, mythology and supersitition. This has nothing to do with the real world. That people try to use the stories as vehicles to proselytize is not in the spirit of the story.

bowlwoman

Amen to that. The stories are religion free. No prayer, no worship. JKR has done this deliberately to keep the stories as universal as possible. And having a Christmas feast and exchanging gifts is hardly a religious observation. Jews and Hindus (among many others) regularly participate in xmas feasts and gift giving because everyone else is doing it. Easter vacation is a just an excuse for vacation in the spring. They have to go home to visit sometimes.

JKR has infused the stories with strong moral themes. This is a fight of good against evil. This is a fight of tolerance vs. prejudice. This is a story about how the choices you make shape you and add (or subtract) from your worth. This is a tale of Harry's personal growth during a perilous journey. This is a story of love, loyalty, friendship, bravery, honor, and sacrifice. And while these are admirable traits, they are not exclusively Chrisitian. These are traits we would hope to find in our heroes. Even dying to save someone is not exclusively Christian. Dying heroically, making the ultimate sacrifice shows up in all kinds of myths and religions. Humans just admire the selflessness that is required to make that kind of sacrifice.

I've known plenty of godparents designated (without religious ceremonies) to care for the child if the parents were unable to do so. JKR has talked about her faith because of the ignorant religious backlash. She wasn't trying to hint that there is a second meaning underneath to the stories. Saying "thank God" for something is not a religious expression either. I'm Jewish and I say "Jesus Christ" all the time. Believe me, it isn't a religious invocation.

Indeed some of the muggleborn and other wizards may be raised with religion, but there is not a shred of evidence in the stories, and I am certain there will be none in the coming books.

[DarkThunder]

Hey yeah, I just realised they have never mentioned God in any way. Not that I have a problem with that. :)

[Kneazle_Herder]

Hey yeah, I just realised they have never mentioned God in any way. Not that I have a problem with that. :)
Although Sirius was singing 'God rest ye merry, hippogriffs' in OotP. :angel:

[DarkThunder]

Although Sirius was singing 'God rest ye merry, hippogriffs' in OotP. :angel:

Oh I forgot about that :D Funny little song... I might sing it some time...

[Liv4Sirius]

I think each witch or wizard at Hogwarts can believe what they want, but I too see a lot of Christian related things in the Harry Potter series. For those of you who are more interested, check out the book The Gospel According To Harry Potter[B][U][I]. It's a really good read for those who think HP is anti-God or just for those who are interested in another person's point of veiw. Forgive me if this has been mentioned else where.

[charredtwilight]

I don't think the HP books are anti-Christian; there are many references to teachings from the bible such as good vs evil etc. I know people personally who think Harry Potter is "wrong" and should not be read. However, most of the people who think this way, I have come to realize, have not even read the books or anything relating to them. It makes me angry when people do this and I refuse to have an argument with people who don't know what they're talking about.

Knowledge is power!

[ComicBookWorm]

The books aren't anti-religion. They just aren't pro-religion. They are pro-morality, and while religions promote morality, you don't need religion to be moral. I was raised with a strong sense of morality, but I am not religious. The same is true for my daughter. These values were passed on to me by my parents who weren't religious either. JKR has infused the books with her own moral center, but she has deliberately keep any overt religious references from the books. This keeps them universal. Any direct references to religious observation, prayer, bible, etc would exclude some readers and possibly offend others, all the while, unnecessarily distracting from the central themes in the stories.

It is very frustrating to see people rant and rave and literally demonize the books as promoting satanism or devil-worship. The books don't even promote wicca. I worked with several people who were actively working to surpress the books at their children's schools. I told them that these books encourage children to read and have introduced reading to a digital generation that was drifting away from reading. When I tried to explain that the charms and spells in the books weren't real, they seemed to believe that if their children read them they would be able to practice magic. I told them to give me a break, since these are made up using latin and pseudo-latin. They all said no, these things are real. I actually laughed in their faces. I tried to explain how moral and decent these books actually were, but they were completely blind to any reality. In this case their religious beliefs were counter-productive and shut their minds to the truth.

[DougJohnston]

Magic seems to be more like a craft than a religion. I think they take on the religions of Muggles.


I agree with this. I think that Jo hasnt said anything because the readers of Harry Potter are so diverse that she doesnt want to upset anyone. I wouldn't call magic a craft though...its a lifestyle...you know?

[AlisiameGranger]

<Vague alert>
I remember reading *somewhere* at *sometime* a quote from JKR where the interviewer said something about seeing quite a bit of religious morality in the books and asked, (I think?!) if she was aware of it/religious herself. Her answer was that Yes, she was aware of it, but was glad that lots of people hadn't pointed it out because it would give away too much about the end of the books.
</vagueness>
Sorry I don't remember where or when, but I'm sure I didn't halucinate it. Does anyone know what I'm on about?

[ComicBookWorm]

I tried to find that quote but all I found was an interview where JKR said she believed in God and didn't want to talk about religion until the books were done. She also said she didn't like organized religion. She was being interviewed about the fundamentalist backlash and sounded a little defensive to me.

[GabrielTurner]

There is actually a lot of proof, such as subtle hints in the books, that supports Muggle religions (such as Christianity) in the wizard world. Harry as a Godfather, meaning there was a baptism. also, the name of a hospital: Saint Mungo's... I think there were several more examples, but these were just off the top of my head. We know JKR considers every little detail in the books :)

Witch craft is severely despised in Christianity. Hence Salem Witch Trials. But I don't entirely agree with what they did there. And as for me being a faithful Christian and reading Harry Potter. To me it's not witchcraft, its adventure.

[Demetri]

Just because Christians hate Witchcraft doesnt mean that in the world that JKR sets up if people were BORN as wizards that they are automatically evil. If christians categorically hate people simply because they are born a certain way then saying that they are a religion based on love sounds silly.

I think that wizards could be deeply religious as well. Remember at Hogwarts they were singing "Come All Ye Faithful."

[GabrielTurner]

Just because Christians hate Witchcraft doesnt mean that in the world that JKR sets up if people were BORN as wizards that they are automatically evil. If christians categorically hate people simply because they are born a certain way then saying that they are a religion based on love sounds silly.

I think that wizards could be deeply religious as well. Remember at Hogwarts they were singing "Come All Ye Faithful."


I apologize I didn't realize you would assume Christians hate people... I thought you would have understood I said witchcraft...

[Demetri]

I apologize I didn't realize you would assume Christians hate people... I thought you would have understood I said witchcraft...
They hate witchcraft like they hate satan because many think them one in the same. So I am not basing it on what you say I am basing it on what actually happens.

[drdementor]

One of my favorite book series is the "Warlock" series by Christopher Stasheff. In these books, people are living in a medieval Catholic society, but there are "witches" who can read people's thoughts, move things with their minds, and fly. The witches are persecuted until they get the protection of the king and an order of monks, who explain that these people are neither particularly evil or holy, they just have extra abilities naturally.

The Christian witches of Harry Potter probably view the prohibition on witchcraft as against Dark Magic or against quackery, or something like that, and not as meaning that people with natural magical abilities are evil and should be stoned.

[GabrielTurner]

There you go again... Christians aren't supposed to hate. If they do then they are wrong, I don't speak for the wrong. But as far as witchcraft goes, it is considered sin. And Sin as the Will of God, is a chosen path to follow.

[veritas4234]

I can't understand why some christians think that harry potter is a sin, and promotes witchcraft. Sure the story takes place in a magical world, but the books are not promoting evil or sin. If you look at the books you could do a whole theological analysis of them... good vs. evil and so on. It's not only that, people who say that the books are the antichrist they're completly wrong! In the books, the wizarding world celebrates christmas, now would the antichrist celebrate christmas? I think not! If people are going to religously attack the harry potter books, they should read the books, and also learn the real meaning of being christian, and their relgion's dogma.

[Rapunzel]

My original question wasn't whether there's religion in JKR's world, but just in the wizarding world. The Fat Friar was just the example I was looking for. Tho, just because he was a friar, doesn't mean he was magical. He's in Hogwarts? Yeah, but like its been brought up, its not a religious school so why's he there? That could probably be a topic in itself I think. :)

If you were raised in a Christian family, went to church every Sunday, etc etc, and you got a letter from Hogwarts, what would you think? Would you go? So, say you do go and find out that the world you know of is so limited. Potions, charms, transfigurations...things that would or could challenge God. Immortality is one of them. There's many reasons (in my mind) that you could question your religion, any religion after you learn about the magical world. So many religious stories might be explained through the use of magic.
I also don't see the Malfoys as being Christian or any known religion. Them, worshiping a muggle man, Jesus? Or another muggle man, Buddha? They're too full of themselves and take too much pride in their magic heritage to believe that way. And its not limited to just them, but the wizarding world in general. That was where my questions came from. Not religion in HP in regards to the real world, or how it satisfies Christians.

Dunno if I'm getting my questions or ideas across, cuz I'm a dork that way. hehe.. :D

Didn't Nearly Headless Nick tell Harry that only witches and wizards can become ghosts? So the fat friar couldn't have been a muggle, could he?

[FoxyDoxy]

The U.K is a christian society with a pagan past. Jo has managed to reflect this in the books without one being dominant over the other. I prefer to think that the characters are not religious at all and that any religious influences come from society.

[Vanilla 306]

i dont think that the wizarding population would be religios because magic is considered by some ( not me ) to be anti god
but i did notice that once in a wile god will be mentioned
i am not sure if this is suposed to represent religion
or if it is an accident

[GabrielTurner]

I can't understand why some christians think that harry potter is a sin, and promotes witchcraft. Sure the story takes place in a magical world, but the books are not promoting evil or sin. If you look at the books you could do a whole theological analysis of them... good vs. evil and so on. It's not only that, people who say that the books are the antichrist they're completly wrong! In the books, the wizarding world celebrates christmas, now would the antichrist celebrate christmas? I think not! If people are going to religously attack the harry potter books, they should read the books, and also learn the real meaning of being christian, and their relgion's dogma.


You are funny! :rotfl: I don't think I have ever heard of anyone who thinks Harry Potter is a Sin. Not that you could go out and Harry Pot or anything... To break the ice, Sin is something done outside of the will of God, which is spelled out by the word of God. The books promote the literature plot of Good vs. Evil which in itself isn't bad, but witchcraft is. Like I said I don't think of Harry Potter as a book about witchcraft and wizardy I think it's merely an adventure that contains that, sort of like LOTR.

About the Christmas thing, Christmas has been so commercialised over the last 30 years that I assure you the antichrist will celebrate christmas. Most Atheists do.

And reading Harry Potter to me isn't a bad thing because I understand the broders between fiction and the word of God. I know better than to take a piece of wood and assume I have some magical talent. Magic does not exist, however the people who believe it does, are having severe problems because we know it does not. As long as you can read Harry Potter, enjoy the book for what it is and leave it at that, I'm sure you are no where near bound for hell.

-Gabe :cool:

[Padfoots_Realm]

I can't believe someone would call Harry Potter a sin or the work of the devil. I mean sure, it's not a thing to worship, but it sure isn't evil. Harry Potter should be considered a fun adventure story with its fantasy sidelines.I don't think you'll land yourself in hell by reading a book containing a magic plot. :rolleyes:

[ultimate sacrifice]

<Vague alert>
I remember reading *somewhere* at *sometime* a quote from JKR where the interviewer said something about seeing quite a bit of religious morality in the books and asked, (I think?!) if she was aware of it/religious herself. Her answer was that Yes, she was aware of it, but was glad that lots of people hadn't pointed it out because it would give away too much about the end of the books.
</vagueness>
Sorry I don't remember where or when, but I'm sure I didn't halucinate it. Does anyone know what I'm on about?

Yes, I read that quote over a year ago in the Hogwarts Chapel, which is now called something else...I think the spirit division. And yes, JKR did say something about discussions of her faith beliefs would give away something about the ending of the books. She is in the Scottish Presbyterian Church, I believe and I do think that there will be some kind of "higher power" or "Force" or something to that end which will surface in the end. I personally think that whatever melted Harry's knife in the department of mysteries could be something of that sort. But that is for another thread.

As for reading Harry Potter and that being sinful...I say, "WHATEVER, TALK TO THE HAND!!!" People will have their own opinion on this matter, but I assure you that there are MANY dedicated Christians that see the Harry Potter series for what it is...fantasy fiction. Many Christians have read and continue to recommend the "Chronicles of Narnia" and there is witchcraft in those stories.

As with everything, it's all a matter of perspective and keeping an open mind.

[marji]

If the characters do have a religion why do they never go to church?

[DarkThunder]

Ehh, I think its the same as our world. I see no reason why they all would be one particular religion.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Here's the quote some of you have been looking for:

Originally from The Times of London, late June 2002
Meanwhile, Rowling remains a member of the Church of Scotland and keeps saying, “I believe in God, not magic.” She also has stated that the magical elements in her books come from her studies in British folklore. This means she is trying to tap some of the same wellsprings as C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkein and even Charles Dickens.

Last year, Rowling told a Canadian reporter that she is a Christian and that this “seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I’ve been asked if I believe in God, I’ve said, ‘yes,’ because I do. But no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that and, I have to say that does suit me. ... If I talk too freely about that, I think the intelligent reader-- whether 10 or 60-- will be able to guess what is coming in the books.”

[x alohomora x]

In the fifth book I remember Sirius singing "God rest ye merry Hippogriffs," but what God? And why do the wizarding folk celebrate Christmas in the first place? It's clear that Christians do not support any form of witchcraft or wizardry.

[magical violet]

Magic seems to be more like a craft than a religion. I think they take on the religions of Muggles.
I couldn't have said it better. I think their just like us and have many different religions.

Their are references to Christianity, greek mythology, and other religions in the books. Thats a big reason why I love the books because I have learnt so much from diffrent legends, religions, name meanings, etc...

Thanks HogwartsChaplain for your post and JK's quotes.

If I talk too freely about that, I think the intelligent reader-- whether 10 or 60-- will be able to guess what is coming in the books.”
It's intresting that she mentions that some us will be able to guess what is coming in the books, what do you think she means?

[Pig]

Talk freely about what? Her belief in God?

[Xtina Tares]

I think the reason there are no direct references to God or any religion is that she wants to be universal in her opinions. She wants all to enjoy the books, regardless of religion or lack of religion. All of the medias and languages the books have been changed to, if I was a writer I would want exactly what she has. She has reached (almost) everyone on the entire face of the earth. You don't write a book for personal reasons, just like poetry. Poetry and books are not written for personal satisfaction, she wrote the books and poets write poetry for it to be heard. You don't want to keep it to yourself, but for it to get to people. In some ways, showing favoritism one way or another to a certain religion would be biased, and the books would have not taken off as much. As much as I would like it to be, religion is not a popular topic in books or discussion (at least for my teenage conversations). And as for in the wizarding world, I think it is subtle, but some of the stories can be related to real life religious occurences.

[SpAzZz553]

I dont think that she talks about a religion because it could be offensive to people that read it, like if its based on christianity and someone of a different religion reads it then they could get offended, so i think j.k. just left that out of the book, which is probably a good idea!!

[Credo Buffa]

Here's a copy of my article on aspects of religion and Christianity in HP. Later I did some research on Saint Mungo's Hospital, but didn't save that in wordprocessing, so that's among the stuff lost from MuggleNetForums.

- ------------ -

Religious Aspects of Harry Potter
~ ~ ~ by Evelyn J.P. Weston

During the past five years, Harry Potter has taken the world by magic. Four fantasy novels have been published, with three more still on the way. The blockbuster movie based on the first book premiered last November. Merchandise is everywhere and going fast. It seems people worldwide are talking about J.K. Rowling's teenage wizard-in-training.

Teachers and parents are talking about the wonderful way the books have drawn many children to reading. Church leaders and members are talking, too, but much said is critical of what is seen as the demonic in the books. Heated discussions, condemnations, and book-burnings by Christians have grieved the hearts of many children, teens, and adults who have come to love Harry, especially those who confess the Christian faith.

How the Christian community has responded to tales of fantasy and magic has been mixed throughout the years. Traditional fairy tales, often including magic and magical beings, have been deemed appropriate by most Christian families. C.S. Lewis' The Chronicles of Narnia and J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings (both written by Christians) initially suffered condemnations similar to Harry Potter, but both classic series are now praised by most of the Christian community.

There is nothing specifically religious about the Harry Potter books. Some people think the wizardry and magic in this fantasy story cannot mix with Christianity. However, there are points within the stories that favor a Christian interpretation.

Christmas is celebrated in a cultural way at Hogwarts School. The winter school break is called the "Christmas holiday." While there are Christmas trees, decorations, presents, dinner, etc., there is no worship of Christ mentioned. However, in one scene the armor at the school sings “O Come, All Ye Faithful,” a Christian carol, and not something more secular such as “Deck the Halls.” Easter is observed in a similar manner, with the spring school break being called the "Easter holiday." Again, there is no worship of Christ mentioned. But it could be argued that Hogwarts is at least as "Christian" as most public schools in the United States.

On the other hand, neither is there any mention of any pagan, Wiccan, cultic, or satanic rituals, signs, or celebrations anywhere in the books. None of the wizards or witches notes the arrival of the full moon-- a traditional time for pagan worship-- or does anything of special religious significance at any time. The author reports that the magic spells are derived from Latin phrases, not real incantations.

One character in the books is a ghost called the Fat Friar. By his very name, we can assume he was a Christian. Becoming a Roman Catholic monk requires an initiation process lasting several years, culminating in vows to serve Christ. It would have been difficult to pass that level of scrutiny with a fraudulent faith in God. In one scene, the Fat Friar suggests to some students that an appropriate response to an attack would be for them to forgive.

Sirius Black is identified as Harry's godfather. This could be a sign that Harry has received Christian baptism. Sometimes godfathers and goddessmothers are connected with the Wiccan dedication rite of Wiccaning, which can be used with babies. This would be comparable to the christening or dedication of an infant in some Christian denominations, but would not be comparable to Christian baptism. However, there has been no mention of what rite was used whereby Sirius became Harry's godfather. At least through book four, how Sirius became Harry's godfather is left to the reader's interpretation.

A thematic tie with Christianity is seen in the form of sacrifice for the sake of another. Harry's mother died at the hand of the evil wizard Lord Voldemort, but Lily Potter's love protected her son from certain death. Years later, wise Headmaster Dumbledore tells Harry, "To have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection forever." Upon reading this, many Christian youth have come to a fresh understanding of Christ's sacrifice, and how Christ's enduring love protects God's children forever.

The basic story is a classic tale of good versus evil. One evil wizard says, "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it." But Harry and those on the side of good know otherwise, and the strong power they use to protect the good in their world is the same as the fruit of the Holy Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.

The Harry Potter books are entirely fictional. It is up to each individual to infer whatever religious identifications they see in the story and the characters. But there is much to be commended in Rowling's gripping tales of "the boy who lived."

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Bravo. An excellent article!

I like how you say that "there is nothing specifically religious about the Harry Potter books." You can take it both ways: there's nothing particularly in favor of religious belief, but there's nothing against it either. It's also interesting that you mention Christmas as a cultural celebration. While in the US, it is unconstitutional to specifically declare a "Christmas break" for students in public schools, it is still done as a means of respecting the culture. It doesn't mean that public schools are preaching Christian doctrines, but it also obviously isn't going against Christianity to say that it is a "winter break" instead of a "Christmas break."

And when you really think about it, I think that you could follow around a lot of people who describe themselves as believers in God and not see a visible trace of their religion. I, for example, am a Christian, but you could see me for most of my average day and not see it. I don't feel like I have to wear my religious beliefs like a banner. I don't feel like I have to witness to people when I see them doing un-Christian things. I don't even go to church every Sunday. But I know in my heart that I believe in God, and I think that it shows in a lot of my actions and in the way I choose to live my life.

I think that most people who are critical of religious issues in Harry Potter are your above-average Christians who feel that every aspect of life should have an obvious religious motivation. However, most people aren't like this. I have a lot of friends at college (which is actually a private Lutheran school, by the way) who I didn't realize were Catholic until I'd already known them for almost a year. We also have a lot of international students who follow other religions, yet we all go about our lives, at a Christian school, unconcerned with who is Lutheran, who is Catholic, who is Budhist, who is an atheist. . . it's the way real life generally is.

As for wizards and religion. . . I have no reason to believe that wizards could not be Christian. For one thing, look at someone like Hermione, who grew up in a Muggle family for the first eleven years fo her life. Chances are pretty good that she probably went to church and said her prayers at meals and everything you would expect. But I sincerely doubt that the day she got her letter from Hogwarts, she said. . . "Oh, look. I'm a witch. Guess I can't be Christian anymore."

Also, with regards to religion as a cultural influence. . . It appears that in even the most subtle ways, wizards take on both the culture of their world, but also the culture at large of the region that they live in. For example, there isn't a "wizard language"; wizards in the UK speak English, wizards in France speak French, etc. Wizards of different countries still adopt their country's flag (as we see at the Quidditch World Cup in GoF), and probably still eat ethnic foods, play ethnic music, and celebrate ethnic festivals in the same way as Muggles from their region do. With this in mind, I think that religion probably plays the same role in their lives. And, for that reason, it would be improper for a school like Hogwarts, which we have seen is a multi-cultural institution, to impose a religious order on the school.

I also don't see why Harry Potter should be a specific target for religious groups. It seems to me like there are other things more threatening to Christianity than books that promote good values like loyalty, friendship, and the differences between good and evil. So what if we don't see Hogwarts kids going to church. You don't necessarily see people in Dickens's novels or Shakespeare's plays going to church, but no one is burning their books, are they? There are witches in The Wizard of Oz, but no one is burning that. It's pretty ridiculous, if you ask me.

[the kryle]

they say oh god a lot, but i think thats just a cliche

[SleepyGuy]

I always thought that the christian thing was just a given. But it trying to show how religion and the wizarding world intermingle with each other would take the book in a totallly different direction since it would require so much background and would be rather controversial. I dont think its so much that she's trying not to offend people outside of the Judaeu-Christian tradition, as much as it would become such a distraction. JK probably just took for granted that her audiance would probably be christian anyways.

[The Dark Prince]

If they had religons in the Wizarding World, they never talk about it....

[ZackSmith]

yeah but they should i mean, it would be an interesting side story to explore muggle born whiches and wizards that wenrt allowed to enroll at Hogwarts at age 11 because of thier parents religios beliefs, i know a religios family that have a 14 year old son and they wont let him read the harry potter books, but donmt object to him playing Doom 3, I am a christian, but I cannot stand the hypocricy thast religion has sometimes, i mean the family that i know just follow the widespread belief on the churches view on Harry Potter is correct and they jump on the band wagon, but for violent videogames if ignored by the church will be deemed acceptable by the parents, its all brainwashing if you think about it, and if JKR had the time to insert a little side story like i provided it would be a nice little lash out and it would be fantastic

[aloisious]

As a sidenote to this topic, what about the most powerful force in the world that is sealed behind one of the doors in the Dept of Mysteries. The one that melts Harry's blade. I've an inkling its LOVE. I think Dumbledore told Harry that what he had that Voldermort could not stand was love. In the Christian belief God is LOVE. It will be interesting to se if what defeats Voldemort is behind that door and if the only way to open it is with a self-sacrificing spirit. We had an example of a one way door that worked that way with the Erised mirror.

Anyway, just a thought.

[Sophie Patil]

I have checked if there was any thread on this, and I couldn't find any that were dealing with what I'm wondering. If there is one and I missed it, I'm sorry!

what I was wondering was the role of religion IN the HP world. do witches and wizards believe in any religion, is there a special religion they have? or that they tend to have? you know, like in certain countrie, there are most common religions and cults and minor religions and stuff, maybe the magic folk has a main religion too. and what about muggle families that have a muggle-born wizards in their family, what do they make of it if they believed in a religion before that was saying that witchcraft was pure evil?

I mean, just because they used to burn witches back in the old days for religious reasons, doesn't mean that all magic folk are atheists, does it?

I've always seen religion as our way of explaining things, or to have something to believe in, so we don't just die and then we're dead. and that's it. or do they maybe have a different attitude towards death because they have a longer life span?

I know this is not dealt with in the books, I was just wondering about your thoughts to the topic, because I've given it a lot of thought...

oh, and I really do not mean to insult anyone by this thread, I respect any religious belief any of you may have comletely, I sure hope noone feels offended by it.

[Almighty Pod]

the concept of "magic" in the Bible is a shifty subject. at one point, the Bible condemns magic, saying that all who practice have a nice warm spot reserved in Hell for themselves.

however (ahem).

magic, by christian standards, is normally believed to be supernatural/energy provided by demons/devils/satan/other evil things that are used for evil. basically, denying God and walking over to use "magic" because it can cause the victim to get a few more zits than they would prefer.

magic, by rowling standards, is more like special powers. some people have it, some don't. by Bible standards, anyone walking the line of evil (note: evil means "complete lack of good") can use magic.

so, time to suspend that belief, for the books.

in rowlings universe, magic is no big deal. it's not evil, and you need not call upon a beezlebub to petrify your friends every now and then. concentrate, say a couple of words, and inate powers manifest the will into physical proportions. tada! magic. in rowlings universe, certain things lead the reader to believe that wizards and witches don't hate god, and may even worship with the muggles.

- "God Bless Ye, Merreye Hippogriffs" in OOTP.
- "Snape never eats here, thank God" said by Ron in OOTP, meaning they at least acknowledge God.
- The holidays.
- The carols.
- Catholic christenings/baptisms for Godfather Sirius.
- Witch burnings never affect magical people, note the spell used by the subject of Harry's essay in (I think) Book 2.

btw, rowling uses merlin as if he was a real wizard, not some type of god.

[ultimate sacrifice]

That was a good read, Pod...Liked it a lot. Thanks!

[Deputy Head]

Almighty Pod! Just because Ron uses God's name in vain does not mean they necessray acknowledgs him to be, he could just be using that like you might say "Oh my gosh" just something he's picked up from other people saying.This whole thread is proving to be very englightening. Also might be good for my mum to read who is avidly against HP related things. I had to read the books behind her back, although I do find spots were J.K is somewhat critizing of christianity based things. Overall I belive it's how you view the books and take the material in. If your one of those kids whose going to go brake off a piece of branch and stuff some hair up it's center and go around shouting "Expectro Patronum" or "Windgardium Leviosa" then I should say, that it has a negative effect. If you read the books and derive good morals such as friendship and self sacrfice the I say brilliant. The only thing that concerned me heavily is the attitude change in Harry during GoF and OotP, he seems to be very agitated and prone to yelling fits. That, in my mind is not a good role model for kids.

[anabel]

I think the books reflect popular culture in Britain. Most people are brought up in a basically Christian culture but very few think much about it. The majority celebrate Christmas and Easter because of tradition - not faith. In England people use the church for rites of passage such as baptism, weddings and funerals. Most of them don't go to church regularly. They think of themselves as basically Christian, but not "religious". They often find themselves praying in an emergency situation but not every evening. Harry and his friends seem to fall into this catagory.

[Machiavelli]

Overall I belive it's how you view the books and take the material in. If your one of those kids whose going to go brake off a piece of branch and stuff some hair up it's center and go around shouting "Expectro Patronum" or "Windgardium Leviosa" then I should say, that it has a negative effect.I wouldn't. I would say it's an example of kids being imaginatively inspired by a book they have read and loved. You see kids going around pretending they can shoot webs out of their wrists, or waving swords around because they've watched Spiderman or LOTR - that's not evil, is it? If you read the books and derive good morals such as friendship and self sacrfice the I say brilliant. The only thing that concerned me heavily is the attitude change in Harry during GoF and OotP, he seems to be very agitated and prone to yelling fits. That, in my mind is not a good role model for kids.Again, I think maybe you're asking a bit of Harry if you want him to go through everything he has, and maintain total and complete control of himself at the same time. He's going through puberty, he's lost his family and now the man he was starting to view as a father figure. He's had his life threatened regularly, and had a childhood that most of us would view as completely deprived... maybe just cut the kid a bit of slack here and let him vent? Personally I was relieved to see that Harry is human and can feel emotions. He'll get his anger under control, but before he can do that he had to recognize that he felt it. That, in my opinion, will be a good thing for kids and adults alike to see happen.

The whole thing is that these books are essentially moral, and there doesn't have to be an overt religion in them for that message to get across; in fact it would hinder it. Harry and the others in the books make their choices based on a clear set of moral values and we all know it - whether those values came from one sect or religion or another is totally unimportant.

[Kneazle_Herder]

Again, I think maybe you're asking a bit of Harry if you want him to go through everything he has, and maintain total and complete control of himself at the same time. He's going through puberty, he's lost his family and now the man he was starting to view as a father figure. He's had his life threatened regularly, and had a childhood that most of us would view as completely deprived...
Now add to that the fact that in OotP everyone is suddenly saying that everything he is going through is something he made up to get attention, and I doubt there is a person on Earth who would not flip out.