CoSForums Archive - "When One Wizard Saves Another Wizard's Life...

Severely Snapped

January 30th, 2003, 4:48 am

...it creates a certain bond between them." Or so says Dumbledore.

I have seen this "wizards' bond" idea touched upon in other posts, but I thought it deserved a thread of its own. We've seen a lot of "bonding" between characters in the first four books, and I think it will continue to be an important factor.

My questions:

1) Is the bond a magical binding contract of some sort, such as the TriWizard Tournament was?

IF it is, then the wizard who was saved would have no choice but to repay the debt, correct? It wouldn't be a choice. For example, most of us believe that Snape saved Harry's life in PS/SS because he owed James for saving his life when they were kids. But it's obvious that Snape feels no gratitude toward James for doing this; in fact, he makes it clear that he feels it was James who put him in danger in the first place, and that James only did it to save his own skin. Yet Snape still seems obligated (magically so?) to repay the debt, despite his personal feelings. Which would suggest that their bond is something he cannot resist, no matter how much he would like to.

That's one argument. But...

What about Wormtail? He owes Harry his life, and he had ample opportunities at the end of GoF to try to save Harry, but obviously he chose to help Voldemort try and kill him instead. If, as I proposed above, the bond between them is deeply magical, why/how was he able to do this? Why was he able to deny his life debt to Harry, when Snape so clearly cannot deny his to James?

2) Does the obligation/debt/magic die with either of the participants?

Obviously, if it doesn't, Snape is :censored:: he can never repay what he owes James because James is dead. Or did he in fact already repay it by saving Harry? If he did...

(leads me clumsily to my next question)

3) Does repayment of an old life debt to someone else create a whole new life debt?

Or, to make it simpler, is there now a new wizards' bond between Snape and Harry? Or is everything simply (finally) square between Severus and James, and Harry doesn't owe Snape anything personally?

And, finally...

4) Do you think there's some kind of punishment or curse that would befall a wizard who (willfully, of course) did not honor the bond?

Assuming that it is a "magical contract," I mean. (I personally hope the answer to this one is "yes." I would really enjoy watching Pettigrew try to kill Harry and burst into flames or turn into a yak or something instead!)

Well, that's it. I'm very sorry if this is confusing, but I find this whole concept a little confusing...but VERY intriguing. Lily/Harry, James/Snape, Snape/Harry, Harry/Ginny, Harry/Wormtail...there seems to be a life-saving epidemic in Potter world, wouldn't you say? ;)

Trigger Happy

January 30th, 2003, 7:14 am

4) Do you think there's some kind of punishment or curse that would befall a wizard who (willfully, of course) did not honor the bond?

I doubt it. It would be kind of stupid to make a "law" or "rule" stating the above.

Turambar

January 30th, 2003, 8:09 am

An epidemic all right: Harry and Ron also saved Hermione from the troll and Harry and Hermione saved Sirius from a fate worse than death.

venus1818

January 30th, 2003, 9:17 am

Just a question: when did Snape save Harry? During the quidditch game in PS he tried to save him but that didn't happen because Quirrel's curse was broken. Maybe I'm just forgetting things, but was there another moment when Snape saved Harry?

artemis

January 30th, 2003, 2:04 pm

harry saved wormtails life....and yes HE could have saved harry plenty of times in GoF, but that would've thrown the story out the window...things have to remain interesting do they not? but if my memory serves me correctly, didn't dumbledore tell harry that there will be a time when harry will be glad that he saved wormtails life? i wonder...

Iam Cedric Diggory

January 30th, 2003, 2:24 pm

Yeah, Snape saved Harry at the Quidditch match in SS. Quirrel said in the Mirror of Erised part, "I'd have managed it before then if Snape hadn't been muttering a countercurse trying to save you." "Snape was trying to save me?" "Of course..." There you go, Snape did save him at the Quidditch match.

crafty girl

January 30th, 2003, 3:35 pm

I don't think it's a binding magical contract, but I think it's a Karma-type thing. You know in your mind that you owe this person your life, even if you choose to ignore that fact, like Wormtail. Maybe if you die without fulfilling your obligation, you just feel like you left something unfinished. Then you might become a ghost.
Also, I think Snape knows that James saved his life, but can't admit it to himself. I don't even think he hates Harry as much as he thinks he does. He's just bitter.

applepie15

January 30th, 2003, 4:33 pm

Snape doesn't want to owe James anything, that way he can hate James without also having to feel graditude.

dog star

January 30th, 2003, 4:52 pm

The fact that Snape did save Harry's life in SS/PS brings me to another question...is the debt really something that can ever be fully repaid? In other words, does one wizard saving another's life mean the saved is forever indebted to the saver? Or is it just, "I saved your life once, you saved my life once, we're even." For some reason I always thought it was a lifetime debt...one that could never be repaid. Which, in some ways, might explain Snape's going into the Shrieking Shack in PoA to "save" the trio from the "madman and werewolf." Yes, he could have been motivated by the idea of receiving the Order of Merlin for his single-handed capture of Black, but there could have been other reasons as well...maybe he still owes the Potters. Maybe he always will.

Puffskein

January 30th, 2003, 5:18 pm

1) Is the bond a magical binding contract of some sort, such as the TriWizard Tournament was?

I think it probably is. Your Snape argument is quite persuasive. As for Wormtail, he did try to persuade Voldemort that "it could be done without Harry Potter". Though he is still extremely pathetic. That debt could be repaid later.

2) Does the obligation/debt/magic die with either of the participants?

Snape didn't think so, when he saved Harry to make himself and James quits.

3) Does repayment of an old life debt to someone else create a whole new life debt?

I don't think so, judging by the Snape example. But it could do.

4) Do you think there's some kind of punishment or curse that would befall a wizard who (willfully, of course) did not honor the bond?

No necessarily an actual punishment, but life debts seem to be an important part of the wizarding ethos.

As well as the debts that Severely Snapped listed, Sirius also has a debt to Harry. In the Shrieking Shack, Harry, Ron and Hermione saved Sirius from being sent to the Dementors by Snape. Sirius repaid the debt almost immediately by saving them from Lupin. Then Harry saved him from the Dementors, and I don't think Sirius has repaid him yet.

doctor23

January 30th, 2003, 5:38 pm

Originally posted by venus1818
Just a question: when did Snape save Harry? During the quidditch game in PS he tried to save him but that didn't happen because Quirrel's curse was broken. Maybe I'm just forgetting things, but was there another moment when Snape saved Harry?

Well actually yes he did. Had Snape not been muttering the counter curse. Harry would have fallen off that broom likely to his death before Hermione could have gotten to the teachers box to set Snape's robes on fire.

Severely Snapped

January 31st, 2003, 6:22 am

Originally posted by dog star
The fact that Snape did save Harry's life in SS/PS brings me to another question...is the debt really something that can ever be fully repaid? In other words, does one wizard saving another's life mean the saved is forever indebted to the saver? Or is it just, "I saved your life once, you saved my life once, we're even." For some reason I always thought it was a lifetime debt...one that could never be repaid. Which, in some ways, might explain Snape's going into the Shrieking Shack in PoA to "save" the trio from the "madman and werewolf." Yes, he could have been motivated by the idea of receiving the Order of Merlin for his single-handed capture of Black, but there could have been other reasons as well...maybe he still owes the Potters. Maybe he always will.

Excellent point, dog star. I've also wondered if the bond is, in fact, a lifetime debt. (I guess that's what I was sort of trying to say with my "Does the debt die?" question, but you put it much better. Thank you!:) )

"Maybe he still owes the Potters. Maybe he always will." What a terrible burden, if true...

dog star

January 31st, 2003, 1:42 pm

It would certainly explain his demeanor toward Harry, wouldn't it? I think it gives him more justification for "hating James for saving his life" if it is indeed a lifetime debt...because he knows it'll never go away. Otherwise, he should be at least indifferent now because the debt should be repaid, after the Quidditch match in SS/PS.

Puffskein

January 31st, 2003, 4:03 pm

Not necessarily. Remember Dumbledore said that Snape saved Harry "so he could hate your father's memory in peace" and by extension, be unpleasant to Harrywithout feeling bad about it.

dog star

January 31st, 2003, 4:57 pm

I still think there's something else lurking in the reason why Snape detests Harry...and it's not so much that "Harry is James' son"...but that Harry, being "the boy who lived," most likely reminds Snape of more than one thing in his past that he'd like to forget.

HermioneG

February 1st, 2003, 9:58 pm

First time posting here, so forgive me if this has been brought up already - but I don't remember seeing it.

I have read the theories that Snape saved Harry's life during the Quidditch match because James saved him from the Whomping Willow. While that's entirely possible, why not add another dimension to that?

Suppose there WAS some sort of bond created when James saved Snape. We all know Snape was a death eater who "turned traitor at great personal risk" and is now a spy for Dumbledore. We know Dumbledore trusts Snape completely, despite his past. Has anyone wondered why?

In book 3, Fudge says to Madam Rosemerta, "Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once..."

What are the chances that that one spy was Snape? It would make a lot of sense - saving a life for a life. Except it didn't work, because James died anyways. Seems to me Snape could get bitter from that, and maybe that explains some of his behavior towards Harry? He's bitter that he will never be able to pay back the debt owed to Harry's father, so he is trying to pay it back to Harry, but at the same time Harry's a living reminder to Snape of his past?

Anyone? Ideas? :sorry:

JofpGallagher

February 1st, 2003, 10:07 pm

Originally posted by doctor23
Well actually yes he did. Had Snape not been muttering the counter curse. Harry would have fallen off that broom likely to his death before Hermione could have gotten to the teachers box to set Snape's robes on fire.

I remember one thing. In PoA, Harry fell in a game because the dementors. Dumbledore stop his falling just moments before he hit the ground. Dumbledore saved Harry's life. Why wouldn't be that a possible case in PS/SS when Sanpe "saved" Harry???
I think Snape still feel that he owes something to James Potter....For that reason he hates more to Harry...I guess...maybe there are other reasons not said yet.
Jofp

Severely Snapped

February 3rd, 2003, 6:14 am

Originally posted by HermioneG
First time posting here, so forgive me if this has been brought up already - but I don't remember seeing it.

I have read the theories that Snape saved Harry's life during the Quidditch match because James saved him from the Whomping Willow. While that's entirely possible, why not add another dimension to that?

Suppose there WAS some sort of bond created when James saved Snape. We all know Snape was a death eater who "turned traitor at great personal risk" and is now a spy for Dumbledore. We know Dumbledore trusts Snape completely, despite his past. Has anyone wondered why?

In book 3, Fudge says to Madam Rosemerta, "Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once..."

What are the chances that that one spy was Snape? It would make a lot of sense - saving a life for a life. Except it didn't work, because James died anyways. Seems to me Snape could get bitter from that, and maybe that explains some of his behavior towards Harry? He's bitter that he will never be able to pay back the debt owed to Harry's father, so he is trying to pay it back to Harry, but at the same time Harry's a living reminder to Snape of his past?

Anyone? Ideas? :sorry:

First of all, :welcome: , HermioneG!

It's a great theory. It has been discussed here a bit, but I'm not sure now in exactly which thread. I do know it's Inkwolf's theory as to why DD now trusts Snape so much, and a lot of people seemed to agree with it. Still, I think something else happened first, something known only to Snape and DD, to establish that trust--otherwise, why would DD have believed Snape's tip-off at all? Why would he even use him as a spy if he didn't already trust him completely?

But I digress...

Anyway, I love all your feedback, but I STILL want to know why Snape can't say, "Oh, the hell with it" about his debt to James, but Wormtail can totally disregard what he owes Harry...

dog star

February 3rd, 2003, 1:26 pm

Originally posted by Severely Snapped
Anyway, I love all your feedback, but I STILL want to know why Snape can't say, "Oh, the hell with it" about his debt to James, but Wormtail can totally disregard what he owes Harry...

Because, as it says on my daily calendar...Snape "is a man of fierce principles," while Wormtail, obviously, is not.

HermioneG

February 3rd, 2003, 7:43 pm

Originally posted by dog star
Because, as it says on my daily calendar...Snape "is a man of fierce principles," while Wormtail, obviously, is not.

:clappy: Much as Snape's not one of my fav characters, I think you're right on this one. I think the animal that Wormtail turns into as an animagi has a lot to do with his personality and code of ethics. He's a rat - nuff said.

(Although, maybe he should have turned into a snake or something else without a backbone?)

Snape on the other hand, while people may not exactly consider his treatment of Harry 'fair'... he DOES have some semblance of a code of ethics. Arguably slanted at times, but there is a code of ethics there. I can't see him using one of the unforgivable curses just because someone's in his way, for example.

And who knows? Voldemort JUST returned to power. His hold on Wormtail might be *really* strong right now - after all, he used Wormail's flesh in the ceremony of his revival. *Maybe* in the fifth book we'll see more evidence of the idea that Wormtail's life has been saved by Harry. Although, I kinda doubt it.

On that same line of thought, now that I think about it... Wormtail owes Harry his life, more or less. Voldemort used Wormtail's flesh in his revival ceremony. Then he used Harry's blood. Does anyone think that this might have something to do with Dumbledore's 'look of triumph' as Harry told him his story in GoF? Maybe the bond that binds Harry and Wormtail also now acts, to a smaller extent, on Voldemort? Hey, this is probably all OLD magic... it could happen, right?

Anyways, thanks for the welcome Severely Snapped! :bigtu:

~HermioneG

daredevildiver13

February 3rd, 2003, 7:52 pm

Everyone owes their life to Harry then, because he saved a lot of pople on that night in Godric's Hollow. But I don't think it is like that. But I do think that Wormtail will save Harry's life in an upcoming book.

I like that theory! (the one with the flesh and blood). Maybe it strenghthens the bond?

dog star

February 3rd, 2003, 8:05 pm

daredevildiver13

February 3rd, 2003, 8:08 pm

yes,i completely agree

HermioneG

February 3rd, 2003, 8:16 pm

Originally posted by daredevildiver13
Everyone owes their life to Harry then, because he saved a lot of pople on that night in Godric's Hollow. But I don't think it is like that. But I do think that Wormtail will save Harry's life in an upcoming book.

I don't know if this bond quite works that way - I'm thinking it has to be a conscious effort to save someone else's life... like the way Harry's mom did for him, or the way Harry did for Wormtail - literally telling Sirius and Remus not to kill the rat.

Baby Harry probably didn't have a clue what he was doing, if in fact he really did anything - I think it's pretty much his mother's sacrifice and perhaps other stuff we don't know about yet that made Voldemort's power backfire on him.

Speaking of these bonds... I wonder what this does to Harry and his mother. Obviously (despite rumors), Lily is more than likely dead. But she DID save Harry's life. I know that's at least part of what's responsible for saving baby Harry's life, but what about the bond that would normally be formed between them? Harry can't exactly repay his mother... or can he? (And does this have anything to do with his green eyes that are repeatedly compared to his mother's? Afterall, Voldemort's failed curse left a scar and parselmouth abilities... perhaps the old magic Lily used to save baby Harry is shown in his eyes... and who knows what else? )

~HermioneG

matahari toad

February 3rd, 2003, 10:40 pm

I think you're forgetting something: Wormtail DOES actually try to save Harry by suggesting to Vol to capture someone else!! Of course this is quite a pitiful way to try saving Harry's life but then Wormtail is quite a pitiful character...:evil: :evil:
However, the point is: Wormtail DOES feel an urge to kind of repay Harry. Now that he has got some power because of his silvery hand he might start actualizing this urge in a more helpful way.#
Concerning all those bonds in general I guess its just the same sort of gratitude bond anyone would feel if he's e.g. saved from a car accident by someone. Even if it was your worst enemy, deep down you couldn't help feeling grateful, I suppose. Though I also like the Karma theory:)
CU!

HermioneG

February 4th, 2003, 1:03 am

Originally posted by matahari toad
I think you're forgetting something: Wormtail DOES actually try to save Harry by suggesting to Vol to capture someone else!!

Oooh, I dunno. I kind of disagree with that one. I think that was more Wormtail being a coward and not having to work so hard. Besides - he's finally back under his master's protection. A few people know he's alive and know the truth as to what happened. Many of Voldemort's supporters want him dead - Sirius told us as much in GoF.

Wormtail is probably scared of Harry. Afterall, if he managed to strip Voldemort of his powers once (albeit with TONS of help from his mother), who's to say he can't do it again? And then where would Wormtail be? He'd be doubly hunted - both by Sirius/Lupin and by Voldemort's angry supporters. I can't imagine living several years as a rat is fun, and I doubt he wants to return to a life like that.

Right now, even though Voldemort's not entirely happy with him, he's probably not going to kill him, or let anyone else kill him if he can help it. At least, not yet.

Wormtail's a coward. He wants someone stronger to protect him. If he loses Voldemort, he's up a creek without a paddle.

~HermioneG

matahari toad

February 4th, 2003, 6:59 am

I don't know.He sounds so...strangely tentative when he says Vol could use someone else. And then it says that he sounds relieved when Vol appears to consider the idea. Why should he be THAT relieved? Only because he fears the consequences? I mean, I guess getting any other wizard would be quite risky as well, and then I'm also not sure how scared he is when he actually HAS protection from Vol...

hermiones mum

February 4th, 2003, 7:42 am

Perhaps Wormtails hand being used in the ceremony has more meaning, perhaps this obligates Voldemort to Harry because harry had saved Peters life.
Wormtails doesn't seem to have passed on the fact that he is obligated to Harry after the events at the shrieking shack.

just a thought

daredevildiver13

February 4th, 2003, 8:24 pm

I wasn't saying that harry had a bond with everyone! i said "But i don't think it is like that"! I think it has to be something like with wormtail or lily and harry.

sugarquill

February 22nd, 2003, 6:45 am

Wouldnt the use of wormtails hand transfer some of his characteristics to Voldamort, we see how voldie was scared of the echos that came out of his wand, can the Dark Lord really be so easily shaken. Also can Harry's blood also put a little goodness into Voldie and cause some inner conflict within himself?

dog star

February 22nd, 2003, 1:00 pm

Interesting concept, sugarquill...and entirely possible, if you ask me. I hadn't thought about being frightened of the Priori Incatatem results before. I'll have to look that up later when I have a bit more time. Since Voldemort transferred some power to Harry during his downfall, it could very well work the other way.

sugarquill

February 22nd, 2003, 7:20 pm

I agree, a voldie with a conscience is a delicious concept.

dog star

February 22nd, 2003, 7:43 pm

Voldemort with Pettigrew's cowardly traits and Harry's conscience...very interesting indeed. The more I think about it, the more I think you may be on to something.

stellaluna

February 22nd, 2003, 8:57 pm

So, about Wormtail being in Harrys dept...

I wondered about this very long, and I do not have any satisfying answer to it but I'll just write what I think.
So, we know for sure, that Wormtail is in Harrys dept but didn't use the opportunity to repay it. We know, that Wormtail is surching protection, of Voldemort now. So, what I just thought is, maybe Voldemort saved Wormtails life before... It is possible. Wormtail was a death eater before he lived as a rat, he must have had something to do with Voldy before. He may have saved him... (from what? don't ask me...).

It would be a bit of an explanation why Wormtail didn't repay Harry.

Yet, what when you are in the debt of two wizards?

Do you have to repay both of them? Or only the one who saved your live the last time? *searching for examples*
Harry. Yup, Harry must be in the debt of more wizards... Nah. He is always only this half-saved. You know what I mean:

-Snape only saved him because of the debt,
-Ron and Hermione kinda saved him too, but we don't know if he may would have managed it alone,
-Dumbledore saved him a bit too, some times.
-His Mother saved him, but she's dead.

All that just doesn't count so really. I'm confused. I'll return once I have a better example.

sugarquill

February 23rd, 2003, 5:47 am

Dog star, its not only the obvious characteristics that can be transfered, Harry didn't get Voldie's evilness from him but he got to be a parselmouth. What other things could voldie take from Harry and wormtail? While we're at it dont wizards have a special ability that sets them apart, like Lily being a seer or something, I wonder if there is something special about Harry, a special ability, that we have yet to see. That could account for Dd's look at the end of book four.

croxx

February 23rd, 2003, 7:49 am

hey guys 1st post here, i thinks it's a interesting twist the fact that wormtail owes harry a kind of mystical dept voldermort than takes wormtails flesh and uses it to make himself a new body leaving the possibility that the dept/old magic may be passed onto himself without his knowing.

dumbledore said in GOF that he didnt think voldy was human enough to kill anymore maybe after he took wormtails flesh and harrys blood dumbledore thinks he is now mortal (or atleast vulnerable enough to kill) and that could explain dbs look at the end,

Sirius Black

February 23rd, 2003, 8:18 am

That was what I was thinking. I have also been wondering about that look and thinking that Voldemort is mortal again. But to become immortal again, he'll have to go through all those dangerous magical transformations, which took him 11 years before, will take him about the same time again. So they still have hope, it's not too late. But that's my theory. About Wormtail and Harry's debt, I have no idea. I don't think it's magical. But I think Wormtail might save Harry from Voldemort's grip. Maybe that could be the reason why in GOF, Wormtail kept insisting that they shouldn't use Harry for bringing back Voldemort.

Zahri Seb Melitor

February 23rd, 2003, 8:46 am

Wormtail, unless he manages to die earlier in the series *crosses fingers* will probably do something to assuage his debt to Harry in Book 7. The way I see it, Harry will need all the help he can get to get himself through 7th year. Little things are being built up to supply this assistance in the end. Whatever happens to Wormtail, he will somehow rid himself of the debt before he dies. When it finally happens, it will be 'his finest moment' (along with biting Goyle on the finger).

On the topic of who have life debts to each other, Harry, Ron and Hermione have pretty major debts to each other. These helped to root their friendship and will probably continue to deepen through the books. This is what I feel makes them such good friends. They have done so much for each other, they could never really extricate themselves from these bonds.

Sirius Black

February 23rd, 2003, 8:55 am

I think the debts between friendship and enemyship are different. If you help your worst enemy to escape death, he will have to do something back for you. But in friendship, you do that all the time. But about Wormtail's debt with Harry, I'm not sure if it's magical or just mental(in the brain).And knowing Peter, it'll be useless if it wasn't tied by another powerful magic.

Zahri Seb Melitor

February 23rd, 2003, 9:30 am

Yes, but they could possibly have impacts on each other, for Wormtail should have a fairly large friendship debt to James, which should be transferred to Harry through loyalty to friends and his betrayal of James, Lily and Harry, along with Harry saving Wormtail, makes a very major debt on several levels to be repaid.

stellaluna

February 23rd, 2003, 10:31 am

Hello?! Please pay attention to my question above...

What when you are in the debt of two (or more) wizards?

Zahri Seb Melitor

February 23rd, 2003, 10:40 am

You have to repay both of them?

stellaluna

February 23rd, 2003, 10:48 am

Mhm, that was my idea why wormtail didn't save Harry in the first place, what do you think about it, could it be?
But then, wich life is more important? Because (if we take it for granted, that Voldemort once saved Wormtail) Wormtail chose to save Voldemort (that Bone, Flesh and Blood-thing) not Harry (who could have been killed in the duel).

Ashkins

February 23rd, 2003, 3:24 pm

It has to be that Wormtail didn't tell Voldemort how he was saved.

If Harry's blood made Voldemort human and took its magical properties of Harry's mothers protection. When he got Wormtails hand that those magical bonds transfered as well.

I am sure we will hear about this in the coming books.

Zahri Seb Melitor

February 24th, 2003, 6:23 am

Can you imagine Wormtail telling Voldemort? 'Excuse me my Lord, but Harry Potter saved my life just before I escaped to find you'
'WHAT! CRUCIO! YOU BLITHERING IDIOT!'

Sirius Black

February 24th, 2003, 10:44 am

:rotfl:
Crucio? He'd say Avada Kedavra. But if Voldemort really did find out about Wormtail, what'd he do? And I think Voldemort is in the debt of Harry now as well. Maybe that's why Dumbledore had that look on his face. It seems Voldemort always makes a slight mistake and Dumbledore is always quick to spot it. And if both Voldemort and Wormtail,the person from who Voldemort took the arm for bone, blood and ect is in debt of Harry, that'd make Voldemort more in debt of Harry or something. Personally, I believe that's the reason for Dumbledore's look on his face at the end of GOF.

stellaluna

February 24th, 2003, 1:14 pm

That could be, Sirius. I like the idea: Voldie in Harry's debt. And finally it's a satisfying answer about this famous look of triumph in Dumbledore's eye... Thank you for bringing that in.

sugarquill

February 24th, 2003, 2:26 pm

Wow! Voldie indebted to Harry via Wormtail, what a hoot! And while theyre at it that could be Wormtails repayment of Harry's debt as well since it would be him who facilitated this.

stellaluna

February 24th, 2003, 6:58 pm

My brain just stopped working. Sugarquill, could you plaese tell me, in very slow words what you meant up there? Sorry, I'm a bit confused...

Zahri Seb Melitor

February 25th, 2003, 8:07 am

I think she means that Wormtail has paid off his debt to Harry by causing Voldemort to be in Harry's debt.

I don't think it pays off the debt. Wormtail's debt is far too big to allow such a small, probably accidental action to pay off Wormtail's all-pervading debt.

And Sirius Black, I think it would be Crucio. He doesn't currently seem to have enough supporters that he can easily kill off a Death Eater if the said DE annoys him. Now by Book 7, the Avada Kedavra would be far more of a possibility.

stellaluna

February 25th, 2003, 1:25 pm

:yup:, agreeing with Zahri.

Sinistra

February 25th, 2003, 3:35 pm

This is an interesting thread!

The idea that a life-debt being unpaid can be a factor if one becomes a ghost (i.e. dying unhappily) is interesting. May also explain why Snape tries to protect Harry so much (outside of his being a "good guy" and working for Dumbledore), so he can pay back his debt to James. Could Snape have a ghost-phobia, a great fear of ending up as a creepy, bitter ghost forever? He certainly did lots of bad things and he seems unhappy in his life, though we only see him when he is teaching. Maybe he has a fun and fulfilling hobby (like catching butterflies) which cheers him in his off-hours.

Now, if Snape tried to save James, but didn't does the effort count? Or only success? Seems a bit hard-line.

Also the "saving" seems to have to be direct and immediate, like Hermione being flattened by a troll or Wormtail being killed by Remus and Sirius. Not necessarily "probable" like Harry falling from his broom.

stellaluna

February 25th, 2003, 4:08 pm

(Again stunned by Sinistras talent to sum up things)

Yes, I think there must be a difference between "active" and "passive" saving. Maybe not the right words to describe it, but you'll get what I mean. Like the unnecessarily saving doesn't "count" as much as the really urgend saving of a person.

Really, I have to sort out my thoughts better :huh:.

By the Way, what exactlly does i.e. mean? I understand what is meant by it, but Ã just don't know the exact words... Please explain it to poor stelaluna!

Zahri Seb Melitor

February 25th, 2003, 7:47 pm

ie stands for id est - that is. Sorry for confusing you. It is often used like eg. is, which means exempli gratia - for example.

stellaluna

February 26th, 2003, 5:28 pm

Oh, thank you.. I made the fault to choose French instead of Latin, I could kick mysef into the.. umm, leg.

Zahri Seb Melitor

February 27th, 2003, 6:42 am

Don't worry. In most circumstances, modern languages are more useful than Latin. Its use is, in my opinion, for furthering one's understanding of grammar, for the understanding it brings of the roots of words, for the mythology that you learn whilst learning the language, and last, but certainly not least, for the ability to understand Harry Potter spells (and names).

stellaluna

February 27th, 2003, 1:30 pm

Yep... but I just wish to know Latin for i wanted to study Philosophy...

Anyways *cleares her throat* back to topic!

Zahri Seb Melitor

February 27th, 2003, 7:32 pm

Yes, there seems to be a difference between direct saving and probable saving. James saved Snape from being killed by Lupin, whilst Snape found it necessary to stop Harry falling of the broom, referee the next match just in case, keep kicking them outside so they wouldn't go near the Philosoher's stone and umm... can't remember anything else at the moment. It took all of that before Snape felt he was anywhere near equal with James and 'could go back to hating (James' memory in peace.'

Then there is the speculation of whether Snape revealed the facts that sent the Potter's into hiding... which would also help a little to repay the debt.

miri

February 28th, 2003, 9:27 pm

I think that the life debt was formed when James risked his own life to save Snape's. Therefore, it makes sense to me that the debt can only be repaid by a similar risk. However that would mean Peter isnt bound to Harry by a life debt.

I was under the impression the reason DD looked pleased was coz now Voldy's human he can be killed, but i do like the idea of Voldy being bonded to Harry! However, I dont know if i see it happening - it would be quite funny, and the books are set to get darker, right?

I do reckon though that Hermione is bonded to Ron and Harry. I dont know if this influenced the fact she took responsibility for the incident - considering that for her, being expelled would be worse than killed... it's worth thinking about i think; though i hadnt til i read this!

stellaluna

March 2nd, 2003, 3:18 pm

Sirius Black

March 2nd, 2003, 3:35 pm

Ah.... intresting thread. Particualrly the Voldemort being in debt of Harry through Wormtail. Exactly what I had in mind.

Good thread.;)

Andora

March 2nd, 2003, 4:01 pm

I definitely agree with people here in that the wizarding bond thing is going to figure highly in the next couple books, already it's being shown as a fundamental part of the wizarding world. People feel the need to repay their debts, if only for moral/conscience reasons, they still do it.

As it is, the life-debts are all intercrossed and I think that maybe that is the point, in that you can never really keep to yourself and not help others. I think Harry knows this really well, and so even though Wormtail killed his parents etc, he choose to save Wormtail's life.

I agree that when Dumbledore had the look of triumph in his eyes after Harry told him what happened in GoF that it must be because of how the ceremony was performed. Wormtail owes Harry his life, and his flesh and Harry's blood went into the potion that gave Voldemort back his body. But maybe it's a body that is full of ancient magic, the kind that Harry's mother infused his with. Voldie was able to overcome that one aspect, and could touch Harry, but he didn't consider the life debts that are owed to Harry, including Wormtail's flesh.

While the argument here is whether or not the magical bond is an actual contract or just a ethics thing, I think I'm going to have to say that it's like a magical contract, but in a karmic sort of way. If you don't repay your life debt, you might not be struck down immediately, but I think something else will happen to prompt you, and eventually you'd feel compelled to do that.

Maybe in the end Voldie won't be able to do anything to Harry because of all the ancient magic and wizarding bonding that had gone on, or if he tried to, it back backfire on him like it did originally.

Anyway those are my thoughts, that it's not so much a contract as a karmic thing, and that Wormtail in the end will return his life debt to Harry. Sort of like in LOTR everyone keeps sparing Gollum's life, and then in the end he plays an extremely important role. Wormtail might serve as a pivotal catalyst or something later on in the story.

miri

March 4th, 2003, 12:19 am

Does anyone think that Voldermort will grasp concepts like *love* as a result of Harry's blood?

stellaluna

March 4th, 2003, 1:39 pm

Mhm, nah, I don't think so. He wouldn't have taken the risk to loose some of his evilness. Or maybe he has the love a bit now. Hehe, he'll have it in secret and will sing Nangani a lulllaby every evening now ;D.
I think there might be a little thing changed about his personality now, you could be right...

Sirius Black

March 4th, 2003, 3:06 pm

Voldemort is of the evil blood. Even if good blood is mixed in him, he will never lean to love. Not him. Never. His personnality won't change, he'll only become more powerful after absorbing the protection of Harry from Lily.

Sinistra

March 4th, 2003, 3:45 pm

Voldemort may not have absorbed some of Lily's protection so much as he has a part of Harry in him and therefore is able to touch Harry because of that.

The karmic theory seems most sensible in evaluating the debt. But I think it has to do with directly saving a life, and it may or may not be at the risk of your own. The risking your own life may gain you *extra points* but Harry is owed a debt by Wormtail for sure. As to the transitory properties of owing debts being transferred to others.... we will have to wait and see. After all, Voldemort owes Harry and Wormtail for his present "life" as they directly contributed to the creating of this present body.

Another stray thought, what happens if you kill someone you owe a life-debt to? Apart from really screwing up your karma, could that contribute to one's being a ghost? Or could you lose your soul or something equally horrible--maybe even turn into a dementor? Just wild thoughts to throw out.

Sirius Black

March 4th, 2003, 3:56 pm

and you can say Voldemort owes twice to Harry because Pettigrew was in debt of Harry. And since Voldemort has used Wormtail's arm, he'll be in double debt right?

Fuchsia

March 4th, 2003, 5:51 pm

Do body parts really make that much of a difference?

Andora

March 4th, 2003, 11:35 pm

THe body part brought him back to life, without Wormtail's flesh he wouldn't have been able to come back, so in this case I think it really does matter.

HPviolinist85

March 5th, 2003, 2:50 am

If, as I proposed above, the bond between them is deeply magical, why/how was he able to do this? Why was he able to deny his life debt to Harry, when Snape so clearly cannot deny his to James?

I personally believe that even though Snape isn't exactly the nicest person to Harry, Snape is a much more noble person than Wormtail is and he is less of a wimp.

HPviolinist85

March 5th, 2003, 3:10 am

What I think it going to happen with Harry and Wormtail

This theory involves Lupin (based that the Lupin/James theory is correct)

Wherewolves are killed by a silver bullet through the heart. Wormtail has a silver hand. Wormtail might shove his hand through Lupin/Jame's heart but instead of killing Lupin/James (because Harry is the son and he stopped Lupin and Sirius from killing Wormtail.... it might get transferred over to Lupin/James) I believe it will reflect upon him Killing him and possibly leaving protection because he was a wimp his whole life.

Fuchsia

March 5th, 2003, 3:11 am

So Voldemort is a Frankenstein of sorts?

Severely Snapped

March 5th, 2003, 5:29 am

Originally posted by miri (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=194055#post194055))
I think that the life debt was formed when James risked his own life to save Snape's. Therefore, it makes sense to me that the debt can only be repaid by a similar risk. However that would mean Peter isnt bound to Harry by a life debt.

Hmmm. I never thought of that. If risk to one's own life in saving another is a factor, then you're right, Peter owes Harry nothing. And Harry owes Snape nothing. And so on.

But as that's not how Dumbledore made it sound, I'll have to stick to my original idea that Peter does owe Harry as much--and in the same "magically-binding" way--as Snape owes James.

stellaluna

March 5th, 2003, 4:23 pm

Originally posted by HPviolinist85 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=200610#post200610))
Wherewolves are killed by a silver bullet through the heart. Wormtail has a silver hand. Wormtail might shove his hand through Lupin/Jame's heart but instead of killing Lupin/James (because Harry is the son and he stopped Lupin and Sirius from killing Wormtail.... it might get transferred over to Lupin/James) I believe it will reflect upon him Killing him and possibly leaving protection because he was a wimp his whole life.

I can't believe there are still people believing that James and Lupin in one body theory. I mean, we have the 100% contra-reason: JK saying that we'll never see a living James (or Lily). That theory is just pointless. But the aspect you meant beside that theory is quite good. Will Wormtail maybe only kill Lupin with the hand? To do some vengeance?

Nah, don't listen to me... I think I'm just shizophrenic... Gollum, Gollum.

Andora

March 10th, 2003, 9:56 pm

That's not true though, Dumbledore TELLS Harry at the end of PoA that Wormtail OWES Harry his life, that's where the whole life debt theory comes from. Dumbledore says that Wormtail will be in debted to him, and I think it's gonna be very Gollum-ish, and in the end Peter will prove his part in the story.

stellaluna

March 10th, 2003, 10:51 pm

We knew that and what do you mean by Gollum-ish?!

Andora

March 11th, 2003, 12:16 am

StellaLuna, Severely Snapped and a couple others were discussing how Wormtail might not owe Harry a life debt because he didn't endanger his own life, but the whole life debt thing comes from Dumbledore who says Wormtail owes Harry, so that theory doesn't really work.

And what I mean by Gollum-ish is that Peter no doubt has a very important role in the future, although he didn't deny Voldemort Harry's blood, later on in the series, it could be proven that if Harry hadn't saved Wormtail's life than Harry might not have been able to defeat Voldemort. Very much in the way that Frodo and Bilbo spare Gollum's life, and in the end, he plays one of the most pivotal roles in the entire book/movie.

**SPOILER**
He is the reason the ring is finally completely destroyed. Frodo finds when he gets to Mount Doom that he can't throw the ring in, it has taken him over, Gollum is the one who destroys the ring. So he played a pivotal role and it was lucky that both Bilbo and Frodo spared him.

So like that, I think Peter will in the end either save Harry's life in a very momentous way, OR he will enable Voldemort's fall, probably dying and then really receiving the Order of Merlin, etc, blah blah.

mol93hermione

March 11th, 2003, 1:00 am

I don't know what other people are saying, (I'm too lazy to read the whole thread) but It seems to be that Snape does owe Snape a debt, unless why would he save his life. I don't think that Snape has any natural will to help somebody, yet I've been very mistaken before, like w/ Moody.

stellaluna

March 11th, 2003, 1:43 pm

Thanks for explaining, Andora. (I've read LotR too).
And sorry, I guess I got your post wrong...

But mol93hermione, what do you mean by Snape does owe Snape a debt? And you should read the whole thread before you answer it.

Mike21

March 12th, 2003, 3:19 pm

Harry says himself something like in GoF im dead if i face that dragon.This is an admission that hell die without help so does he owe Mr.Crouch (who was acting as Moody) his life?

stellaluna

March 12th, 2003, 10:37 pm

Mhm, I don't know. we don't know wether Harry had managed it without Moody/Crouches help too; and that again is such a case of unnecesseraly (sp?) saving...

And Mike, would you mind using the ' key? your post is quite hard to read.

Barbara Kennedy

March 13th, 2003, 5:36 am

Originally posted by dog star (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=155859#post155859))
I still think there's something else lurking in the reason why Snape detests Harry...and it's not so much that "Harry is James' son"...but that Harry, being "the boy who lived," most likely reminds Snape of more than one thing in his past that he'd like to forget.

I know this is out of left field,but....
Could it be that Snape had a son at some time, who didn't live??????????

Barbara Kennedy

March 13th, 2003, 5:54 am

Originally posted by Sinistra (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=188799#post188799))
This is an interesting thread!

The idea that a life-debt being unpaid can be a factor if one becomes a ghost (i.e. dying unhappily) is interesting. May also explain why Snape tries to protect Harry so much (outside of his being a "good guy" and working for Dumbledore), so he can pay back his debt to James. Could Snape have a ghost-phobia, a great fear of ending up as a creepy, bitter ghost forever? He certainly did lots of bad things and he seems unhappy in his life, though we only see him when he is teaching. Maybe he has a fun and fulfilling hobby (like catching butterflies) which cheers him in his off-hours.

Now, if Snape tried to save James, but didn't does the effort count? Or only success? Seems a bit hard-line.

Also the "saving" seems to have to be direct and immediate, like Hermione being flattened by a troll or Wormtail being killed by Remus and Sirius. Not necessarily "probable" like Harry falling from his broom.

The part about the "ghost-phobia" was interesting...
Would Snape possibly become a ghost if he did die in the books?
If he did he'd be as scary as the Bloody Baron.

:wow: :wow: :devil:

stellaluna

March 13th, 2003, 1:11 pm

Snape wouldn't die... No, he wouldn't *cry*...
Nah, seriously, Snape is one of the charakters that hold the book together. Without him, it'd be nothing (sorry, heard too much Placebo).

Zahri Seb Melitor

March 17th, 2003, 9:44 am

If he did die, he can't die until Book 7, he is needed to much to keep the sub-plots moving. Harry Potter without Snape is like LOTR without Gollum, things won't work out without him!

Barbara Kennedy, perhaps, but when was this kid born, who was the mother and why did the kid die! You do have to keep in mind that James and Lily are 21, perhaps 22 when they die. It keeps a perspective on what can and can't have happened between the end of their 7th year and the downfall of Voldemort. Life after Halloween, 1981 was pretty harrowing for Snape for a few months, as far as I can extrapolate. He probably began teaching around this time, if he had not done so earlier, and had to deal with all the Death Eater claims and trials.

miri

March 17th, 2003, 5:42 pm

stellaluna - no such thing as too much Placebo!

The theory of Snape resenting Harry because he had a son who didnt live... I see it more likely over a younger sibling/ nephew or niece/ cousin. Or even a pregnant girlfriend/ wife. Time really is a bit of an issue!

But if he felt that by failing to protect his family, it could again explain his bitterness etc - how do you forgive yourself for something like that?

stellaluna

March 17th, 2003, 7:01 pm

That's a good point miri. I always thought Snape was a man of principals; he could never forgive himself. (I stood this point in the question wether Snape would be a murderer too).

I wish we knew more about Snape.

HPviolinist85

March 17th, 2003, 9:02 pm

[quote]Originally posted by stellaluna (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=201311#post201311))
. But the aspect you meant beside that theory is quite good. Will Wormtail maybe only kill Lupin with the hand? To do some vengeance?

Nah, don't listen to me... I think I'm just shizophrenic... Gollum, Gollum.
[/quote

Hmmm...... he might use his hand. It's supposed to be very powerfull. Maybe he'll be able to use it as a weapon or something on many people. He'll discover it's strenth and become extremely confident. Because Harry and Lupin are so close (or they do some sort of magical thing... who knows....wait, he was the one who didn't kill him to revenge James's death) killing him with the hand (He can probably shove it through his heart or somthing)

I do think that Harry saving Wormtail's life and Voldemort using his hand might have some kind of signifigance. This will be yet another miscalculation of Voldemort's part like Lily's sacrifice.... Jeeze..... Voldemort is so stupid!!!!!!

ok, well, I doubt any of this makes sense. Good luck trying to undestand it :??: :banghead:

stellaluna

March 17th, 2003, 9:53 pm

:D, I'm completely clueless.

Barbara Kennedy

March 18th, 2003, 1:36 am

Snape just seems to me like someone who has lost a great deal in his [relatively short] life. It may not have been a child, but some other family members; brother, sister, mother and/or father.
Could this loss be what "turned" him away from Voldemort?
It could account for his bitterness and gruffness. Is he afraid to let anyone too close to his true emotions?

stellaluna

March 18th, 2003, 12:21 pm

It certainly seems so...

delemtri

March 19th, 2003, 3:25 am

I think the wizard saving-life bond will manifest itself in future books by Ginny saving Harry's life - he saved hers in book 2, remember. :)

smartypants

March 19th, 2003, 8:02 am

Oooh, yeah, that's right....

I think we'll also see Wormtail maybe not saving Harrys life, but at least turning against Voldemort. Maybe he won't do it until the very last moment, not until wormtail knows he is dying anyway, but I think it will come, as a thanks to Harry for saving his life.

stellaluna

March 19th, 2003, 1:45 pm

I'm not sure about that, smartypants.Wormtail's very weak, I don't think he'll bring up the courage to stand up against Voldemort. Lupin aand Black spoke about that, he always needs someone to give him shelter.
If he was to turn against Voldemort, he would only do it if there was someone braver to protect him on the good side. Maybe Dumbledore with his "full confidence" again?

smartypants

March 19th, 2003, 3:56 pm

Well, if you are dying anyway, you can either just lie there and die, or you can use your last powers for something. So it may happen if he is dying, but otherwise you are right, I don't think wormtail would stand up to Voldemort as long as he has a chance to gain anything from Voldemorts power. Becuase he can't gain anything from Voldemorts death, except a lifetime in Azkaban. :)

stellaluna

March 19th, 2003, 4:47 pm

That's right. But would he die? He's quite powerful with that silver hand now. And the "good-side" fighters rather put the people into Azkaban than kill them. The only really opportunity I can see for Wormtail to die would be asa a punishment of Voldemort.

But even if he used his last power before dying to do something good (returning to the good side by an action or so), would it be powerful enough to mean anything? Could he have a last major role in the good vs. Evil fight with his last action? Would he save Harry? Or attack Voldemort?

What am I saying there? I'm so confused.

Barbara Kennedy

March 19th, 2003, 10:49 pm

We are assuming that the silver hand has other magical properties other that to act as a real hand....
It could be that Voldemort can take over contol of the hand as easily as Peter can use it.

stellaluna

March 19th, 2003, 11:24 pm

Voldemort can take the control over everything, remember? The Imperius Curse?! I heard theorie about the hand aiding to kill Lupin (silver-> killing werewolves), I'm not a fan of such theories.

Barbara Kennedy

March 27th, 2003, 4:41 am

There are other threads starting that discuss this heavily, should they be merged with this one?

stellaluna

March 27th, 2003, 3:16 pm

No! We were getting off topic. Back to the main idea of being in a life debt.

Jessica

March 28th, 2003, 1:25 am

This is a debate from the "Ginny will save Harry's life" thread:

My theory is this:

Maybe the whole life debt thing only applies if you have no selfish reason for saving the person's life.

Snape and James hated each other so clearly for James to save him was completely unselfish. Same with Harry and Wormtail.

Howver, a lot of the other life savings we have seen have had personal benfit for the saver (i.e. Harry/Hermione saving Sirius (Harry;s godfather, Hermione's friend), Harry saving Ginny (friend/Ron's little sister))

So I'm not convinced that there is a life debt between Ginny and Harry. I do really like the threory that her knowledge of Riddle will help Harry defeat Voldemoert but, like they say, that's another thread . . .

Delemtri's counter argument is this:

Since when does it depend on the circumstances?

quote:

"When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them... This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry."

From Dumbledore, at the end of PoA.

Anybody else have any ideas

stellaluna

March 28th, 2003, 6:19 pm

Originally posted by jessicacarstens (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=235127#post235127))
This is a debate from the "Ginny will save Harry's life" thread:

Snape and James hated each other so clearly for James to save him was completely unselfish.

Snape would have a counter argument to this; as he said in (I think ) PoA: James only saved Snape to get himself out of trouble. It was not 100%ly unselfish; though we Potter fans would like to believe that.

Jessica

March 28th, 2003, 6:49 pm

Originally posted by stellaluna (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=236544#post236544))
Snape would have a counter argument to this; as he said in (I think ) PoA: James only saved Snape to get himself out of trouble. It was not 100%ly unselfish; though we Potter fans would like to believe that.

Good point.

However we only have Snape's word for it so we don't know if its true or not.

Shi

March 29th, 2003, 6:14 am

I think it's sort of like a magical contract, but I also like to think that it resides in their very skin (like the protection Lily gave Harry). If the debt is in their very being, their skin, then Voldemort is also in Harry's debt, as he was brought back with Peter's flesh. Dumbledore said that Voldemort wouldn't want a servent in Harry's debt, and I think this might be why, when Voldemort took Peter's skin, I don't think he knew Peter was in Harry's debt, or he wouldn't have done it.

stellaluna

March 30th, 2003, 2:09 pm

That's a major question: does Voldemort know that Peter is on Harrys debt?

Guardian Angel

March 30th, 2003, 2:14 pm

I thought he knew, but when I think about it - he'd be a lot more angry if he knew that. If he does, we are certanily going to see Wormtail dead in the 5th book. Vodey needed him for rebirth and now... he can get rid of Petegrew easily!

too_wicked

March 30th, 2003, 2:36 pm

Just thinking...

Wormtail is on Harry's debt right? And it was Wormtail's right hand that was part of the "potion" for Voldie's rebirth. What if something happens to Voldie because the flesh he used for resurrecting was part of a man that is in Harry's debt? Harry's blood was used for the potion. What if there is some sort of "side effect" to that? Freaky.

I think Wormtail will die before the series end. He might be saving Harry from Voldie to pay his debt. Ginny-yeah she might give her life for Harry. You know. That life-debt thingy and the girl likes him.

Cheers.

Barbara Kennedy

March 31st, 2003, 10:09 am

I'm sure that the interesting mixture of ingredients in Voldemorts potion/bath will have some surprising consequences.
I have confidence in JKR to come up with something we may not have thought about.

stellaluna

April 2nd, 2003, 3:52 pm

Yeah, that's going to be such another invisible-and-burned-into-the-skin-ancient-magic- thing...

harp230

May 19th, 2003, 1:10 am

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=242354#post242354))
I'm sure that the interesting mixture of ingredients in Voldemorts potion/bath will have some surprising consequences.
I have confidence in JKR to come up with something we may not have thought about.

What do you suppose those consequences could be?

Perhaps Voldie has enough human in him to die?
How could this influence Wormtail considering Harry did save his life? Anyone have any ideas?

stellaluna

May 19th, 2003, 1:43 pm

Of course it could be that Voldemort now has enough human in him to die, but I can't really make up my mind about your second question.

Barbara Kennedy

May 20th, 2003, 3:58 am

Perhaps it could make it easier for Harry to "sense" when Voldemort is particularly active, even more than his scar used to indicate, an extra "connection", as such.

Perdita

May 20th, 2003, 4:19 am

Originally posted by jessicacarstens (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=235127#post235127))
My theory is this:

Maybe the whole life debt thing only applies if you have no selfish reason for saving the person's life.

I like this idea, and I would like to refine it, if I may.

Perhaps the Life-debt exists only if you choose to save a person who has no direct attachment to you; therefore, you are not at all obligated to save that person's life. You choose to do it anyway, because that is the right thing to do.

Why do I believe this? I look at all the instances in the books when one wizard/witch has saved the life of another wizard/witch. For example:

James & Snape – Snape is James’s schoolmate, so James has an obligation to save Snape’s life. Also, Snape’s life was only in danger because of James’s friends. That is another thing that makes James obligated to save Snape.

Harry & Ginny – Ginny is Harry’s best-friend’s sister, so that makes it obligatory for Harry to rescue her. Also, she was being murdered by Tom Riddle, a villain. And since Harry represents the good side, he is obligated to fight against what Tom Riddle does.

Harry, Hermione & Sirius Black – Sirius has been revealed to be Harry’s godfather, so naturally, he is obligated to save Black. Hermione is Harry’s best friend, which also puts her in an obligation to help her best friend’s godfather.

Harry, Ron & Hermione – all three of them have saved each others’ lives before, more than once. However, we have never heard mention of any life-debt existing between them.

The idea is that when there is a duty or an obligation, the deed is rendered null, and nothing is owed. When there is no duty or obligation, then that’s when one goes into debt, because there was no reason for Harry to help Pettigrew. And yet, Harry chose to do it anyway because it’s the right thing to do.

harp230

May 20th, 2003, 4:29 am

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=327797#post327797))
I like this idea, and I would like to refine it, if I may.

Perhaps the Life-debt exists only if you choose to save a person who has no direct attachment to you; therefore, you are not at all obligated to save that person's life. You choose to do it anyway, because that is the right thing to do.

Or maybe it is assumed that the debt would be "repaid" without consiederation or trouble because it is someone that is close to you. Perhaps it is only an issue with someone that is not close to you because it would cause an internal conflict to return the favor, etc.

Jessica

May 20th, 2003, 9:34 pm

To use a completely mundane analogy, If I go out to dinner with a friend and they pay, I don't worry about it because I know that sooner or later I'll buy them dinner and it will all work out.

If a stranger or someone I don't particularly like buys me dinner, I feel more of an obligation or debt has been created.

stellaluna

May 20th, 2003, 9:37 pm

That's a good example Jessica :). I agree.

Spirit

November 11th, 2003, 4:35 am

I think that Wormtail is in Harry's debt and it might have something to do with Voldemort's downfall. I mean, Wormtail (in Harry's debt) brought Voldemort back to life using his flesh and Harry's blood. Doesn't it make sense for that to mean something?

Drusilla

November 11th, 2003, 6:07 am

I think it has to be direct...not indirect...lifesaving. Harry directly kept Sirius and Lupin from murdering Wormtail in the shrieking shack. He *indirectly* saved many lives with his defeat of Voldemort, but the only "debts" we see occur when one wizard *directly* saves another wizard's life.

I agree with you,dog star:the lifesaving has to be not only direct,but intentional
,whether or not the wizard doing it knew if it would would or wouldn't work.Lily's sacrifice to save Harry,Harry's saving Ginny,and long before that,James saving Snape are a few other examples I can think of right now.Would Penelope Clearwater owe Hermione a debt of gratitude for the warning to look around corners with a mirror-that did save her from death,after all.

Auri DeMeer

December 6th, 2003, 2:02 pm

I searched & found nothing discussing Life Debts in general. So, here we can discuss how do you think they work, and what theories could be made out of Life Debts. :)

Here is where the Life Debt bond is explained (Dumbledore to Harry in Book 3 - bolds are mine):

"Pettigrew owes his life to you. You have sent Voldemort a deputy who is in your debt...When one wizard saves another wizard's life, it creates a certain bond between them...and I'm much mistaken if Voldemort wants his servant in the debt of Harry Potter."
"I don't want a connection with Pettigrew!" said Harry. "He betrayed my parents!"
"This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry. But trust me...the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life."

* What does the "certain bond" do? Maybe the person "in debt" can't do anything directly against the person who saved his/her life?

* Peter Pettigrew has a life-debt with Harry since the end of Book 3. However, in Book 4 he willingly contributed to the re-birth of Voldemort, Harry's supreme enemy. Would that then be considered "indirect"?

* Do you think Voldemort maybe didn't want to kill Lily in the beginning of the AK rebounding scene because he may have had a life-debt with her? (Lily may have saved Voldemort's life in the past). What's more, could this "magic at its deepest" be the "piece of ancient magic" Lily made to save Harry? (Lily may have passed the life-bond to Harry to assure his protection against Voldemort).

* Harry has a life-debt with Snape since Book 1 - how could this affect future plots?

* And finally, could Severus Snape have been the perfect Secret Keeper for the Potters, since he had a life-debt with James and could have done nothing that directly led to the Potters deaths?

Liselle

December 6th, 2003, 2:14 pm

Ginny has a life debt with Harry also as he rescued her from certain death in the Chamber of Secrets.

I think that Pettigrew's helping of Voldemort was indirect but by using Harry's blood, it may well come back to bite them in the ****...how I'm not sure but I'm betting that Dumbledore does (gleam of triumph anyone?!). Maybe using a different wizard besides Harry would have been better for Voldemort...we will see.

I'm still stumped as to why Lily had to die, I'm swinging between theories of love (unlikely), consience on Voldie's part (even less likely) and I'm just very very very confused, if Lily had to die then its something big in her past and lineage I'm guessing which means it will involve Petunia and maybe even Dudley
(does Dudley have a life debt with Harry as he saved his soul??)

OOH I love your ideas on Snape....maybe he would have been the perfect secret keeper but he hated James and Sirius......hmmmm food for thought!

Liselle

Catgirl

December 6th, 2003, 3:24 pm

Harry doesn't have a life-debt with Snape. Snape saved Harry's life because he had a life debt with James. He had no choice. Either the Potters and Snape are even or Snape still has to work towards paying back his debt to James by always making sure Harry's safe from Voldermort. Maybe Snape won't have payed back his debt untill he's died saving Harry.

Does Gabrielle Delacour have a life debt with Harry? It may not count as her life was never really in danger, but it was a real rescue in the eyes of Harry and Fleur. Maybe Fluer is in Harry's debt, because it should have been her who rescued Harry.

I think that Ginny's life-debt to Harry is going to be very important to the story.

If saving someone from dementors counts as a life debt then that means that Ron, Hermione, Sirius and Snape all owe Harry a life debt. Sirius twice. Although, Sirius has definately payed that debt back in the Department of Mysteries.

As for ways the life debt works. Obviously the life debt stands if the person who you are in debt to dies, as Snape saved Harry's life because of his life debt with James.

I can think of a few examples of when it wouldn't work:

1. I think that any parent saving their child's life would not have a life debt with them and probably vice versa. That means that Harry doesn't have a life debt with his mother. Especially as he was a baby and it's up to parents to protect their babies anyway. I also think it you wouldn't have a life debt if saved by a sibling or spouse. Family members have a bond anyway, they save each other's lives because they are family.

2. If someone saves someone's life on someone else's orders or becuase it's part of their job, I don't think there'd be a life debt.

3. If the life-saver has sworn to protect that person anyway. For example members of the Order protecting Harry. (That also comes under point 2.) I also think that godparents would come under this catagory as they have chosen to be that person's gardian. This means Harry doesn't owe a life debt to Sirius or the Order members for coming to his rescue. He may owe a life debt to Dubbledore, because he's their leader or just a debt to the order in general. He may also feel he has to avenge Sirius because it's his fault he died.

4. If the person who's life needs saving is only in danger because of the person who saved their life. This would include Harry saving Ron in the lake. He was there so that Harry could save him. Snape doesn't fall under this catagory as it was Sirius who put his life in danger, not James.

I wonder what happens if you kill a person who you owe a life debt to.

hesdead-dealwithit

December 7th, 2003, 2:03 am

I think that a life debt is not something that you would, at first glance, consider to be magic. That is because it is magic at its most impentrable, it is magic stripped of its incantations and wands and such and made pure. It is a connection of the emotions of two people. Pettigrew has to save Harry, not because there is some newfangled charm that physically makes him have to, but because he will want to, in a weird war. It is magic at its root, founded solely in emotion, and not something that looks at all like the magic that we see in everyday wizarding life.

Elviriel

December 7th, 2003, 2:34 am

I like this theory about Lily saving Voldemort ... though I don't see how she could have done that.

Barbara Kennedy

December 7th, 2003, 2:35 am

When one wizard saves another wizard's life (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=5383) covers this question too.
Could some ideas be found here.

Auri DeMeer

December 7th, 2003, 12:49 pm

Pettigrew has to save Harry, not because there is some newfangled charm that physically makes him have to, but because he will want to, in a weird way.
I see your point, hesdead, but I disagree somewhat. Certainly Peter may want to save Harry's life; it's a matter of honour. But I also think that if there's a magical bond between the two, the breaking of that bond must have consequences for the breaker. That's why I think if Pettigrew cast a AK against Harry (thus breaking the bond), the AK wouldn't be effective - what's more, it would rebound against him. That's my logic.

And that's also the basis for the theory of the AK rebounding against Voldemort in 1981. Maybe Voldemort simply disregarded this "magic at its deepest", because well, his morals aren't exactly pure. You can also deduct something from Voldemorts words in Book 4:

"His mother left upon him the traces other sacrifice...This is old magic, I should have remembered it, I was foolish to overlook it" (bolds are mine).

So, he knew there was this old magic going around Lily, only he overlooked it.

When one wizard saves another wizard's life covers this question too. Could some ideas be found here.
You're right, Barbara. Mmm... Maybe, as that thread is in the Great Hall, this one should focuse more on the theories about the future books (like the Lily not killing Voldemort or Snape the perfect Secret Keeper), because of the different life-debts and its implications.

I like this theory about Lily saving Voldemort ... though I don't see how she could have done that.
Well, if she has thrice defied Voldemort and survived, maybe one of those times she was in position to kill him, only she didn't do it because she was too noble and wanted him to have a trial and be judged first.

Sirius83

December 7th, 2003, 4:51 pm

The problem with life debts is that there are way too many running around to all be important. Look at how many people have life debts with Harry already:

Ginny - Chamber with Riddle
Hermione - Attempted Avada Kedavara in DoM
Pettigrew - Mercy in Shrieking Shack
Diggory - The creature in the maze

And there are still some that I know I have missed. There are also those that don't relate to Harry. The question is, in my eyes - who do we know has been given a clear cut life debt and who is in a position to act on it?

The answer to that is Pettigrew. Ginny and Hermione are already with Harry and would be willing to give their lives for him. Diggory is already dead. Pettigrew on the other hand, is Voldemort's right hand man. He's in a position where he could end up stalling Voldemort or screwing up some plan of Voldemort's because of his life debt with Harry. The question is - how will it play out?

Pondering life debts...
Sirius83

hesdead-dealwithit

December 7th, 2003, 6:54 pm

I see your point, hesdead, but I disagree somewhat. Certainly Peter may want to save Harry's life; it's a matter of honour. But I also think that if there's a magical bond between the two, the breaking of that bond must have consequences for the breaker. That's why I think if Pettigrew cast a AK against Harry (thus breaking the bond), the AK wouldn't be effective - what's more, it would rebound against him. That's my logic.
That point of view fits with what happened that night in Godric's Hollow, but I think I'll have to disagree. I don't think Pettigrew could cast an AK against Harry. I agree that there is a magical bond between the two, but I think it is a magical bond of magic "at its deepest, it's most impenetrable." Magic at its deepest, to me, is just emotional fluctuations. So when there is a magical bond between two people, a magical bond that is not "modern," almost impurified magic, but "ancient magic," it is simply an emotional bond between the people. Magic is emotion. So I don't think the AK would rebound, it's just that Pettigrew's emotional situation is tied to Harry, in a way, that he simply cannot kill him.

Come to think of it, we might actually be saying the same thing. :)

Weatherby

December 8th, 2003, 12:53 am

Thanks Barbara! I've merged the two threads. :D

The emotional bond theory has already been tested. Peter did suggest using another boy in GoF. He may have suggested this because Harry saved his life but then the life debt wasn't very strong.
I think it has magical effects or something else will happen for Peter to help Harry. Right now his fear of Voldemort overrules any feelings towards Harry. I think his relationship with him may already be stronger than it was with James but is it enough?

Severely Snapped

December 8th, 2003, 4:30 am

Harry doesn't have a life-debt with Snape. Snape saved Harry's life because he had a life debt with James. He had no choice.

But Dumbledore never said Snape HAD to save Harry because of his life-debt to James. DD said he "believed" the reason Snape "worked so hard" to keep Harry safe in his first year was so that he, Snape, could go back to "hating [James's] memory in peace." This strongly implies that Snape DID have a choice, that he was not obligated in any way to help Harry, but rather did so for his own peace of mind.

Unfortunately, there is still no proof that life-debts are transferrable to next-of-kin, which would mean that yes, Harry does have a life-debt to Snape totally apart from the one Snape had with James.

Zachary1993

January 2nd, 2004, 1:44 am

Voldie_Mort

January 3rd, 2004, 12:56 am

Ok oK I get the gist. Lily saved Harry, Harry didn't do a re-pay thingy if he suppose to. Would that mean that the debt would go to Petunia?--yick

Phoenix32

June 30th, 2004, 7:58 pm

I've tried searching for a threat that addresses this particular topic, but I could have overlooked it. Perhaps the answer is hidden elsewhere. Anyway, if I'm looking in the wrong place - anyone feel free to direct me. :)

We've all had a lot of talk about the debt Peter Pettigrew owes to Harry for saving his life. Dumbledore even says Voldemort won't find much use of someone in Harry's debt.

Here's my specific thought -

James saved Severus' life. This is one of the reasons Severus hated James so much. Because he owed him a debt. Now... say a person dies before that debt can repaid... Is there a chance Severus is in Harry's debt? Or because of his debt to James, this affects Harry somehow? I was reminded of this particularly in the scene in POA where Severus is describing what happened with Black and the Lupin, and he continues to stress that he saved Harry's life. He seems pretty happy about the situation. Sure this could just be because he wants to get Harry in trouble.. But maybe there's more?

Could this also be one of the things JK was surprised about in seeing the movie of POA? The way Snape protects the children from Lupin-as-Werewolf?

And if we go along with this idea, (I mean what would make Snape treat Harry so poorly - aside from the fact that he loathed James - than being in the debt of this snot-nosed kid who is famous for doing nothing?) and Snape is directly in Harry's debt, he won't be much use to Voldemort either.

Maybe the second half of this is going to far, but obviously Snape is in James' debt (although it's never been directly stated). Could this play a part?

Phoenix4211

June 30th, 2004, 10:07 pm

I think Snape payed most of his debt in the first book when he tried to save Harry's life from Quirrell. Dumbledore mentioned something about it then in the hospital wing when he and Harry were talking although I'm too lazy to go and look up the right quote at the moment. ;) Something about how one of the reasons Snape had been trying so hard to protect Harry all year was because he saw a chance to repay the debt he felt he owed James.

I think if Harry were in danger though, Snape would try and help him, even though he does hate him...

Hope that helped!

~Phoenix

guitarzan8

June 30th, 2004, 10:18 pm

no matter his personal feelings about harry.

snape has a duty to protect his students.

I'm sure he would've done the same for any of his students if they had been in danger.

I think snape might have already paid his debt anyway like said above.

Incanus

June 30th, 2004, 10:19 pm

You may want to take a look at this topic:
Why does Snape hate James Potter? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=5392&highlight=debt)

Snape would probably give his life for Harry, though he hates him. I don't know. Maybe old Severus actually likes Harry. Who knows. I think he'll play a huge part in the next books.

linzee4life

June 30th, 2004, 10:20 pm

Well, Snape obviously has a debt to James, so that is why he has tried to save HArry, but that could also be because of his loyalty to Dumbledore and the order.

dancer4life728

June 30th, 2004, 10:22 pm

Jk Rowling has never revealed the actual terms of wizard debt but it is obvious it is something very powerful. Eventually I think that Peter might tell Voldemort not to kill Harry (just as Harry did for him when Lupin and Sirius were going to kill Wormtail). However I doubt that Voldemort cares that Wormtail says not to kill Harry, and eventaully wormtail will probably takes the damage from whatever Voldemort does/uses to kill Harry and that will give Harry time to Kill Voldemort. As for Snape he's already repaid some of his debt to James by protecting Harry all these years and even though hes been really mean he has tried to keep Harry out of trouble, and as demostrated in OotP Snape worries about Harry even if he doesn't really show it as lets say Dumbledore or Ron and Hermione do.