The time beween Godric's Hollow and the Dursley's

[Padfoot127]

I have a question, and I did search this and didn't find anything. I'm sorry if this is posted in the wrong spot. But my question is, what did they do with Harry between the time Voldemort killed Lily and James before he got to the Dursleys? In SS, JK makes it seem like people are celebrating for a whole day before Harry is transfered to the Dursley's house. Was it the trip that took so long? Why didn't Dumbldore have someone just apparate there to pick up Harry? Plus, if Lily and James were killed on Halloween, why weren't there Trick or Treaters there? Is that celebrated where Harry lives?

And I remember reading in a thread a long time ago that someone asked whether muggle neighbors saw what happened and why they didn't call the police. The muggles did see the exploded house, and Hagrid says that he pulled Harry out before the muggles became too aware or something. :)

[DragonslayerX]

Well, as for the question about what they did with Harry, I imagine it either did take that long for them to travel to the Dursleys'. But, I think it is more, it took awhile for Dumbledore to decide just where Harry would be safest, and what would be the best thing for him, and that he also needed to drop Harry off at night, when everyone was asleep. It says that McGonagal is somewhat uneasy about leaving Harry with the muggles, so maybe they were debating it. Also, I imagine Dumbledore kept Harry during that time.

As for the Haloween part, I always thought this happened during the night of Haloween, and then Harry was dropped off the next night, Nov. 1st.

[Padfoot127]

Ok thanks! It really got me confused when I was rereading it... :D

[Dedalus]

If Lily and James lived anywhere in the UK, it wouldn't have taken that long to travel there. Even by car or train (or ferry, for Ireland) nothing would take a full day, unless there's travel problems or strange routes. Half of Hagrid's journey was by flying motorbike, so it would have taken less time than usual.

But Hagrid definitely came to pick Harry up because he encountered Sirius Black there, at the Potter's house, so young Harry was at the wreckage the whole time. He wasn't in the care of anybody else, inbetween. Perhaps Hagrid took a few breaks?

[Mike21]

Prehaps you cant apparte to Godrics hollow just like you cant apparte to Hogworts.

[Guy Fawkes]

Yeah I imagine they had some sort of council meeting discussing the fate of young Harry Potter, and developing ways to protect Privet Drive before he was dropped off to ensure his protection in the future.

Well they had a set time to meet at the Dursleys we know that due to the fact that Hagrid was late in arriving. The thing I wondered about is they new he was going there due to the fact the Professor McG was at the Dursleys all day waiting, possibly keeping an eye out for anything out of the norm until the arrival of the others. Hagrid probably just took a bit and had to lay low during the day since he was in fact driving a flying motorcycle.

[Aoife Diggle]

Well its sounds as if Dumbledore decided what to do very quickly. Hagrid arrived at Godric's Hollow before the muggle police did, so that couldn't have been more than an hour after the explosion, probably even less. When Hagrid got there he already knew exactly what he had to do and where he had to take Harry as Sirus offered to take him but Hagrid said Dumbledore had told him to take Harry to the Dursley's.

Hagrid then didn't arrive at the Dursely's until the following night and I can't honestly think what could have taken him that long.

[Jessica]

I think Dumbledore needed the time to do whatever magic he did that keeps Harry safe. He apparently is protectted in more ways than one some of which involve ancient magic. Probably takes some time to do it right. . .

[dorcasderr]

They also may have had to check Harry out and observe him for a while to see if he had any ill effects other than the scar. Hagrid may have rescued him before the Muggle community arrived but probably took him smewhere more private nearby, where he met with Dumbledore and whoever magically medical was needed to give him a clean bill of health. Then, after tDumbledore and anyone else who was there had left, Hagrid had to wait until night so as not to be seen flying the motorcycle. He couldn't, after all, apparate because he wasn't allowed to do magic (except fly on enchanted motorcycle...?)

[rotsiepots]

Originally posted by Mike21 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=213447#post213447))
Prehaps you cant apparte to Godrics hollow just like you cant apparte to Hogworts.


I don't really see why not. Hogwarts is protected by a plethora of charms, enchantments and various other types of magic to keep it hidden from prying eyes. Godric's Hollow, on the other hand, is a Muggle town. I doubt they would have any restrictions on apparating.

As for the missing 24 hours, I'm not really too sure what to think. The properties of the charms used by Dumbledore to protect Harry could explain some of the hours (ie perhaps the "ancient magic" Dumbledore evoked takes 24 hours to take effect).

Presumably JKR will enlighten us in book five and beyond.

[ahsweape]

Originally posted by rotsiepots (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=213842#post213842))
I don't really see why not. Hogwarts is protected by a plethora of charms, enchantments and various other types of magic to keep it hidden from prying eyes. Godric's Hollow, on the other hand, is a Muggle town. I doubt they would have any restrictions on apparating.




Are we sure that Godric's Hollow is a Muggle town? We know that Hogmeade is the only entirely wizarding village in England, but there are certainly other wizarding areas throughout the country. Since there were Muggles who lived near the Potters' house I'm inclined to think that Godric's Hollow is a wizarding area in a Muggle town. I guess it just seems odd to me that a place named after Godric Gryffindor would be a Muggle town. Of course that could be Rowling's ironic humor showing.

[timmay]

A point perhaps, what’s to say that they had neighbors?
Godric’s Hollow may be the name of the House or estate and not a Village or Suburb.
On Guernsey none of the houses have numbers they all have names (poor post man).
I don’t know if that is true in any other part of Britain.

If the house was attacked in the early hours 4am or 5am then add an hour or two for the news to get out that takes you to 6-7ish breakfast time when the Owls start flying around.
Assume that is when Hagrid finds out, if he can't apparate because he’s not a qualified wizard (if that matters) then 3-4 hours to get to Godric’s hollow in Wales from Scotland.
Picks up the bike from Sirrius and fly’s to Surry 2 or 3 hours.

Now its early to mid afternoon no later than 4 o'clock, but Hagrid gets there after the Dursley’s have gone to bed.
Where has the missing time gone or is my logic flawed?

[dorcasderr]

You've taken care of a lot of the time for us, Timmay! But we come down again to the fact that Hagrid had to wait until dark to fly the motorcycle so as not to be seen by Muggles. Dumbledore probably didn't want him to be seen by the wizarding community either, because the Death Eaters were still out there, weren't they? I still think some of the time can be accounted for by Harry's being checked out to see if he was ok after the attack. Also, babies have certain needs...food, sleep, to be changed occasionally. This too could account for a PILE of time. Believe me, babies take time (been there, done that.)

[timmay]

Ok so we can speculate that Harry had a check up from someone, somewhere safe untill it was dark.
Mrs Figg perhaps?

I don't know some big ole holes in this train of thought.

I'm not doubting that babies need alot of care and I very much doubt that he was left in the rubble all that time.

And to put a downer on my own idea but hagrid did say that there were Muggle's swarming all over the place didn't he.

[Barbara Kennedy]

The reason Hagrid didn't apparate is because he never learned how. He was expelled in his 3rd year and I think I read that you aren't taught/tested how to apparate until your 7th year



Or...
Wait, didn't he apparently apparate off the bridge just before Harry caught the Hogwarts Express for the first time????????.

[Starseyer]

Originally posted by Dedalus (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=213444#post213444))
Half of Hagrid's journey was by flying motorbike, so it would have taken less time than usual.

I image Hagrid had to travel at night, though, so that Muggles wouldn't see him.
And perhaps a person can't apparate to a place that is protected by the Fidelus Charm?

[Starseyer]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=217078#post217078))
Wait, didn't he apparently apparate off the bridge just before Harry caught the Hogwarts Express for the first time????????.


Hagrid didn't take Harry to Kings Cross in the book. The Dursleys did and then left him wondering where platform 9 3/4 was.

[ahsweape]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=217078#post217078))

Or...
Wait, didn't he apparently apparate off the bridge just before Harry caught the Hogwarts Express for the first time????????.



It was not while Harry was waiting to catch the train to Hogwarts, but rather to catch the train back to the Dursleys after buying his school supplies that this seemed to happen. However, it does seem by the description in the book that Hagrid apparated:

"Harry wanted to watch Hagrid until he was out of sight; he rose in his seat and pressed his nose against the window, but he blinked and Hagrid was gone."

It really does seem as though Hagrid disappeared in the blink of an eye and I don't know what else that could be but apparating.

Furthermore, do the books really ever explicitly state that one has to be a fully qualified wizard to take the apparating test? I imagine that usually only fully qualified wizards attempt the test as it seems to be such a difficult thing to do, but perhaps it is not a hard and fast rule that only fully qualified wizards can apply to take it. Of course I don't have my fourth book with me so I might be wrong.

[Zahri Seb Melitor]

I don't think that they have to be qualified, but Hagrid doesn't have a proper wand. It would be slightly more... difficult, shall we say, to apparate without finishing 7th year and without a functional wand.

I say that it's a portkey. Portkeys have been proven to be able to go out through the wards around Hogwarts, they can probably come in, especially if the Headmaster of Hogwarts sets them up.

As for the missing 24 hours... Dumbledore, you did say that you would tell Harry everything, didn't you? *looks hopefully towards Dumbledore* I guess we may find out in the next 3 books.

[Sorting Hat's Songwriter]

it is a puzzling question. I think Hagrid MUST have taken Harry and laid low until it was the following night, so he wasnt seen. There was probably somewhere set up by Dumbledore that was safe, as Harry was still in danger frrom the remaining DE's. Im sure we'll find out, coz JK has blatantly got some v important event that happened in those 24 hours

[Hermoine]

It's mentioned in the GoF that Harry is protected by spells at the Dursleys. Perhaps he was in the care of Dumbledore while the spells were being conjured. I assume they would be quite complicated. They would have to be to protect Harry from Voldemore while in the care of the muggles.

They could have done the spells during the day, and then moved him under the cover of night.

[Barbara Kennedy]

I'm pretty sure Dumbledore would have been at least one of the wizards who placed protective spells around Harry and the Dursleys as well as their home.
He would have needed time to be sure he got all the spells right. We may assume that he took time to conact other witches and/or wizards to help with the protections and wards, thus making them very potent.
The only way I think he would feel comfortable about this time period would be to send Harry with Hagrid to the safest place around, Hogwarts, until preparations were complete.
As for Mcgonnagall not knowing this, well, she was watching the Dursley's home all day wasn't she?

[dorcasderr]

Since Hagrid says he flew over Bristol on his way to the Dursley's house, which is in Surrey, it is unlikely that he came from Hogwarts, which is due North of London. This places Hogwarts in Scotland in all likelihood and Godric's Hollow probably in Wales. I say Hagrid brought him from Godric's Hollow, in Wales.

[Barbara Kennedy]

But there is a huge time difference between when Hagrid picked up Harry from Godric's Hollow and delivered him to Dumbledore at the Dursley's. the only way to explain that would be the timeturner........HEY!
It could be the answer.........

[MadMagic]

I don't understand why they would have had to use a time turner. Wouldn't they have used it if they needed more time, not if they have too much time.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Yes, it would be very risky to go FORWARD in time, but couldn't it be done?

[MadMagic]

I suppose it could, but what would have happened to the other Harry. Eventually the two would have to merge again and I don't see how it would be possible unless you go forward and then go back. I don't think you can go forward and stay. It just doesn't seem possible.

[Barbara Kennedy]

What better way to hide than going forward in time? You leave the present time, and *poof*, no more you anywhere in time, until you re-appear in a certain moment in the future!

Crazy idea but it makes sense too.

[MadMagic]

I guess that could work. You just cease to exist in the present and your life becomes the future.

[jordmundt6]

Okay, there's something really screwey about this whole time line. Voldemort got his information from Wormtail and attacked the Potters on Halloween. He attacked them at night. McGonagall: "They're saying that last night, he turned up in Godric's Hollow..."

The murders happened at night.

Sirius was the first one to get to the scene, but he did soat the end of the following day (unless his motorcycle is only as fast as a normal motorcycle which I doubt). So Hagrid and Sirius both got to the smoldering ruin at almost exactly the same time and both went for Harry. Hagrid found him first, and wouldn't give him up.

IMPORTANT: Whatever happened during the confrontation between Harry and Voldemort nearly totaled the Potters' house which means something VERY different from Avada Kedavra was unleashed. (Avada Kedavra leaves no mark on victims and, as far as anyone knows, cannot be deflected by anything, so it would not have left a mark on the surrounding furniture if it had, say, missed.)

Somebody magical saw the wreckage and reported it and also reported that Voldemort had disappeared. The Magical community of Britain gave way to frenzied celebration. Everyone who heard the news dispatched it to everyone they knew. (The newscast reported "floocks of owls flying in every direction since daybreak.") Everybody, and I do mean EVERYBODY dropped what they were doing and started celebrating. It was like an underground Mardi Gras. Dumbledore probably dispatched Hagrid sometime around midday after deciding on the Dursleys. Hagrid was probably waylaid a couple times (remember the Leaky Cauldron visit in the first book?). He got there that night. He met Sirius who had been checking arranged hiding places for his friends all day. Pettigrew missed their prearranged meeting that afternoon (November 1). Sirius immediately checked Pettigrew's residence (they were supposed to meet about sending Pettigrew to a safer hiding place), but it was deserted. Panicking, Sirius drove like a demon to get to Godric's Hollow. He saw the ruins of the house. He investigated. He found James' body. He found Lily's body. He figured out what happened. Hagrid showed up and found Harry. Sirius pleaded with Hagrid to give him Harry. Hagrid wouldn't. Sirius gave up, offered his bike as transport and Apparated off to try to find Pettigrew. His best friends inthe world were dead and it was his fault. The only thing on his mind was REVENGE. That Harry didn't die of exposure after all this is truly amazing.

Now comes the REALLY CONFUSING PART, ready? Here we go:

Voldemort killed James. The popular thinking is, then he killed Lily, then he tried to kill Harry. But one thing doesn't make any sense about that order. In Harry's memories from PoA, his mother is still screaming when he feels the burning pain in his forehead. Did the same curse pass through her and hit him?:??:

[timmay]

As to how everybody found out.
There may have been wards placed around Godrics hollow much as there are Wards around Private Drive, both to detect magic and to prevent magics use.

And as too the pain Harry feels I have always acepted that Harry feels the pain his parents felt as they were killed,vaicariously, its perhaps not phisical pain but the intense emotional loss that creates the pain he feels through the scar.

Harry is so good of heart that it hurts him too see others in pain, so it is because of his empathy to others which causes him so much suffering.

Yes/no?

[jordmundt6]

But why would that translate to a burning sensation on his forehead. That burning is from "the curse that failed." Why would his empathy for his parents result in him feeling that burning pain 30 seconds early?

[timmay]

He had experienced the sensation before, so it could be the anticipation of pain, like phantom limb syndrome, when you have had a leg amputated but you still feel the sensations as if it was still there.

As too the screaming ringing in his ears the mind could have been stuck on replay because of the extreme trauma it had just ben put through.

[jordmundt6]

No, I think we're talking across each other here. This is a memory and the way Demntors work, they make you relive your memories. If his memory is accurately portrayed, he's feeling the searing pain of the curse about 30 seconds before Voldemort is supposed to have cast it (assuming Voldemort cast Avada Kedavra three times that night). He's remembering the scar being cut onto his forehead before the thing that's supposed to cause it actually occured.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Perhaps some of the same theories in "Scars Can Come In Handy" thread can help answer that.

[timmay]

I still think my idea valid though, but I dee where yu are coming from, If the Dementors goal is to make you relive your most traumatic emories then wouldn't the most painfull one be brought to the top and be stretched out, causing all the other memories to be that much more painful.

Say you break someones fingure intentionaly so as you are breaking another one you continue to manipulate the broken one stretching out the torment for as long as possible while causing still more suffering.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Uh, timmay, I think you are posting this in the wrong thread.

[timmay]

Uh no?
I am trying to explain why Harry feels the burning of his scar before the event happens in his memory.
Off track a little but to do with the comments Jordmunt6 has said none the less.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Oh ok, I just couldn't follow the conversation, I guess.

[timmay]

But perhaps it is a wee bit muddle I am little Dysletsic. So ideas tend to tumble out.

But back to the topic of the thread, a device which would throw you forward a couple of hors would explain things, because indeed you would cease to exist untill you reapeared in the future.

but this idea seems a little un Rowling to me, JKR doesn't seem to be one for quick fixes, no matter the merit of the idea.
As she pointed out in POA time travel is a dangerous thing you can't anticapate the outcome of anything you may change or prevent.

[jordmundt6]

You mean like continuous replay on one painful memory while they start playing another? Well, if that's true, shouldn't he have also seen maybe fighting Voldemort the second time? I really think that it was one memory, but I see what you're saying about the torture technique.

[Sabine]

Though I'm quite certain that someone will close this thread soon (because I never seem to be able to find related threads when I'm doing a search) ... I'm going to post this anyway.

Actually I hope this one will not be closed because the questions I want to marvel about are a little "twisted"

There are some things that I think are "disturbingly unclear" when it comes to that night Voldemort tried to kill Harry at Godrics Hollow.

I try to explain what I think

Everytime - here and elsewhere - when someone asks: From where did Voldemorts wand show up in GoF ... this question is mostly answered with:

Probably Voldemort didn't went on his own but had some Death Eaters for company. And one of those DE's took the wand with him.

IF this would be true, then there would be Death Eaters around to witness what happend that night and there would be no need f.e. to torture the Longbottoms one year after this incidendt as to find out what they knew over the whereabouts of Lord Voldemort.

AND - more important than that - if this would be true there would have been death eaters around to help the remains of Voldythingy. - means Voldy would not have to go to foreign countries and look for little animals he could posses. He would have had the help of some DE - thus having his "bodied" servant around and rearising would have been possible a lot earlier. (not that I wish for that!!!)

And something in me just won't buy the theory that DE's stayed there just long enough to find the wand and didn't recognise that something of Voldemort had survived... they KNEW he took precautions to become immortal!!!!

On the other hand there is the possibility that Voldemort went there alone. I don't think this is likely after all the "show" Voldemort provided at the graveyard in GoF to demonstrate his powers.

***************

And then there is some other thing I stumbled across someplace else....

The fact that we seem to miss one entire day!

Voldemort showed up at Godric's Hollow, killed James and Lily - wasn't able to kill Harry aso.

Next day we know was a very strange day - even for muggles. There were those owls flying around all day and funny dressed people were behaving funny in the streets.

And that following night Dumbledore, Mc Gonegall and Hagrid placed little Harry at the doorsteps at Privet Drive.

So where was Hagrid for one day with Harry???????

Hagrid reached Godrics Hollow in the same time frame Sirius did. Sirius gave him his bike to bring Harry to Dumbledore And one day later Hagrid arrives with Harry at Privet Drive.

So what happened to that one day? Is Gordic's Hollow that far away that the journey took them so long? I don't believe this.

Some ideas someone?

Sabine

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Everytime - here and elsewhere - when someone asks: From where did Voldemorts wand show up in GoF ... this question is mostly answered with:

Probably Voldemort didn't went on his own but had some Death Eaters for company. And one of those DE's took the wand with him.

IF this would be true, then there would be Death Eaters around to witness what happend that night and there would be no need f.e. to torture the Longbottoms one year after this incidendt as to find out what they knew over the whereabouts of Lord Voldemort.
Well, we don't know exactly what happened to Voldemort that night, except there was "pain beyond pain," and he fled. I think Voldemort got hit, and his soul was wrenched from his body, but not immediately. There may have been some sort of shadow hanging out of his body, his body seems to have been destroyed so it may have been fading strangely away - anyway, we really don't know what happened. If what I just described happened, then it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that the DEs ran away in terror, or that Voldemort, in a state worse than delirium, ordered them away. Or something. Maybe then, Voldemort, half in his body, had enough strength to take his wand and banish it to Albania or something like that. Anyway, we just don'e know what happened, so we can't speculate.

[Sabine]

Anyway, we just don'e know what happened, so we can't speculate.

We can't speculate????

I thought this forums full of speculations about things we do not really know about?

:)

Sabine

[sindatur]

I've always felt most comfortable assuming that Peter picked it up, and held it for all the years in between, and returned it to Voldemort when he returned himself to Voldemort's side at the end of POA.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

We can't speculate????

I thought this forums full of speculations about things we do not really know about?

:)

Sabine
We can speculate. My fault. What we can't do is say we know. ;)

[superphred]

I think we just have to say "it was magic!" and accept it. Where does Mcgonagalls wand go when she transforms into a cat? her clothes just seem to morph along with her body. what happens to her wand if it is in her pocket? I think something similar happened to voldemort - at some point between POA and GOF, peter helped him to take form as the hideous little creature frank sees at the riddle house and his wand/clothes/whatever also took form.


as far as the time it took for Hagrid to get to Privet Drive, we know that Hagrid is not allowed to apparate, which could explain why mcgonagal was on privet drive all day. It's been thought that hagrid could only ride the motorcycle at night time to avoid being seen by muggles - or yes maybe godrics hollow is much farther away than hogwarts - which takes quite a bit of traveling also.

[jordmundt6]

Okay, here goes. Yeah, it looks as if Peter had it. I think Peter was probably waiting in the wings while Voldy clocked the Potters. He probably assumed he'd be getting a big reward so he'd be around (not in the fight mind you, but around). Then the plan went to pot. James and Lily were killed but then there was a huge flash with the last AK and the house, or pieces of it collapsed. Voldemort's body disappeared probably with one of those patented high screams (think CoS) and Peter knew his goose was cooked. He transformed and skittered around the rubble looking for anything he could salvage (probably not wanting to risk the same fate his master had suffered he wouldn't try to kill Harry directly, and might not have been able to find him anyway). He found the wand, transformed, pocketed it and then heard Sirius' motorcycle coming. He panicked. He transformed again (with wand this time remember clothes and whatever your storing in them become part of your transformation--as we saw with McGongall) and skittered away as fast as his paws could carry him. Sirius was too aghast at the ruins of the house and the bodies, once he found them, to bother looking for a rat, he probably figured Peter was long gone. Peter, to his credit did some very quick thinking. He went back to his hiding place, grabbed an extra robe, and maybe a knife and then picked a very public place for Sirius to find him so he could invert the situation. Sirius probably spent a half-hour arguing with Hagrid (at least) before offering his motorcycle which Hagrid took (at least then he wouldn't have to walk it). Hagrid was under orders to meet Dumbledore at the Dursleys' by 10 pm and to keep Harry out of sight until then so wherever he took him (his hut, the castle, Dumbledore's vacation home, Mozambique, it doesn't really matter. Nothing happened except about 24 hours of celebration). Hagrid showed up (late) and Dumbledore dropped him off with the letter-pact for Petunia. End of story. The wand Voldy used in both cases had to be his own because he wouldn't trust anyone else's for this, his most important work. And we know that the wand in GoF was his because he and Harry locked up in a Phoenix-song duel.

[MadMagic]

You might want to continue the discussion of how Voldemort got his want back in the thread How did Voldemort get his wand back? (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=5754&highlight=night+voldemort+killed) .
Please use this thread to talk about the time that elapsed between Hagrids arrival at Godrics Hollow to Hagrids arrival at Privet Drive.
Thanks :)

[morgan le fay]

heres an interesting link from the harry potter lexicon that is precisely about the missing 24 hours on the night of lily and james' murders.

http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timeline_potters2.html#order

in response to what happened with voldies wand, i think that perhaps, someone (a DE) went back during those missing 24 hours, investigated, and took the wand back..... i.e...... wormtail? i mean, think about it.... if DD had disappeared for more than 12 hours, and NO ONE knew where he was, dont u think that the order would start to get worried and look for him? i wouldnt be surprised if the DE's were the same way. even though they were scared of him (well, some of them anyway), i think they were concerned about his own welfare so that they could sleep at night.

i wont be surprised if in a future book, DD explains to harry just what went on during those missing 24 hours. ;)

[Sabine]

:sigh:

Does it really make sense to merge this thread with one thath has not been written in since April?????
:grumble:


Mad Magic - thanks for your advice. I'll have a look at that other thread.

jordmundt6 it really sounds conivincingly simple - I know. But what was ever that simple with JKR?

Oh and by the way. Hagrid told that Baby-Harry fell asleep as the flew over Bristol. Doesn't sound to me that they had some detour to Mozambique.

morgan le fay - thanks for the link. Sure they could have turned up that next day. But the place would be full with pleasemen and so on. Sure they are wizards - but I think thea wouldn't want to step between those muggles.

To me it seems strange that Voldemort should have acted all on his own this very special evening. Without some audience to congratulate and applaude when the threatening is eliminated. Sure he would have said "Stand back, you fools." But he would have at least some DE's with him to worship him.

Sabine

[silver ink pot]

IMPORTANT: Whatever happened during the confrontation between Harry and Voldemort nearly totaled the Potters' house which means something VERY different from Avada Kedavra was unleashed. (Avada Kedavra leaves no mark on victims and, as far as anyone knows, cannot be deflected by anything, so it would not have left a mark on the surrounding furniture if it had, say, missed.)

Somebody magical saw the wreckage and reported it and also reported that Voldemort had disappeared. The Magical community of Britain gave way to frenzied celebration. Everyone who heard the news dispatched it to everyone they knew. (The newscast reported "floocks of owls flying in every direction since daybreak.") Everybody, and I do mean EVERYBODY dropped what they were doing and started celebrating. It was like an underground Mardi Gras. Dumbledore probably dispatched Hagrid sometime around midday after deciding on the Dursleys. Hagrid was probably waylaid a couple times (remember the Leaky Cauldron visit in the first book?). He got there that night. He met Sirius who had been checking arranged hiding places for his friends all day. Pettigrew missed their prearranged meeting that afternoon (November 1). Sirius immediately checked Pettigrew's residence (they were supposed to meet about sending Pettigrew to a safer hiding place), but it was deserted. Panicking, Sirius drove like a demon to get to Godric's Hollow. He saw the ruins of the house. He investigated. He found James' body. He found Lily's body. He figured out what happened. Hagrid showed up and found Harry. Sirius pleaded with Hagrid to give him Harry. Hagrid wouldn't. Sirius gave up, offered his bike as transport and Apparated off to try to find Pettigrew. His best friends inthe world were dead and it was his fault. The only thing on his mind was REVENGE. That Harry didn't die of exposure after all this is truly amazing.
jordmundt6:agree: :agree: :agree: Excellent Post!

You bring up so many things I have wondered about myself! Do we really know that Sirius found bodies? And just how did Harry get that scar? I think that is a mystery at the heart of what happened, and I don't know if the curse went through Lily. I don't think so, because that is not how it is shown in the movie, and I'm absolutely sure that JKR wouldn't have let them do that scene differently than she intended.

I think there is a difference between what Harry thinks he is hearing (his Mother's screams and his father's voice) and what he actually heard. I have a strong feeling that maybe Harry's parents weren't alone in the house, though I have no basis in the books for that. But maybe Harry doesn't know the truth because Voldemort doesn't remember what happened to him and those involved don't want him to know how they did it? There is just so much in the books about friendship and teamwork. It would be strange that Lily and James were alone.

Where was Lupin, for instance? Where was Snape? Who reported what happened? Who was involved in designing the spells around Privet Drive? Vernon sees a cat reading a map the morning after - I'm assuming that was McGonagall. So if she had a map, she must have known about the plan. They wouldn't have put defenseless little Harry into an unsafe house. We know the house on Privet Drive is being observed somehow, or how would the Order of the Phoenix members know to send all those letters at the beginning of OotP. We know Figg is part of the protection. We know that Dobby turns up outdoors in Harry's hedge, at one point, so maybe there is a portkey there? Dumbledore tells Harry he has watched him more carefully than he knows. That makes me think of portraits or two-way mirrors, etc. In the movies, there is an old portrait on the wall of the Dursley's living room, looks like a man and two women in old-fashioned clothes. You can only glimpse it in certain scenes - I found it by scanning the room with the zoom feature. Over the mantle is a huge mirror and the portrait is on the opposite wall. We should look for these details in the next movie, I think, for clues.

The whole Hagrid/Sirius thing bothers me. If Sirius wasn't the secret-keeper anymore, if he had indeed switched with Peter, then he wouldn't have "known" where the Potters were, right? Does that make sense? So did he follow Hagrid there? And where was he planning to take Harry? Did Hagrid sense something wrong with Sirius, or was he just following orders from Dumbledore? When Sirius gave Hagrid his motorcycle and said he wouldn't need it anymore, did he realize he was going to try to kill Peter, or that Peter might kill him? What is that all about?

One thing is for certain, to me. A small baby with a scar like that must have bled alot. It is disturbing to think about him lying there in pain. He would have needed medical attention right away, and food and warmth. I think he was taken somewhere for all that. I don't think St. Mungo's is the answer, but maybe back to Hogwarts. There definitely is some missing time, in my opinion.

[purplehawk]

We do know Sirius saw their bodies. He says so in PoA.

"I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies... I realized what Peter must have done... what I'd done... "

Someone mentioned above that Pettigrew must have been with Voldemort when he attacked the Potters. I also believe that to be true. The following passage seems to back up the theory.

"I heard things in Azkaban, Peter... They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them... I've hard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters' on your information... and Voldemort met his downfall there... If they ever got wind that you were still alive, Peter - "

Who was involved in designing the spells around Privet Drive?

The protective spell was all Dumbledore's. He discussed it in The Lost Prophecy chapter of OotP.

If Sirius wasn't the secret-keeper anymore, if he had indeed switched with Peter, then he wouldn't have "known" where the Potters were, right? Does that make sense? So did he follow Hagrid there? And where was he planning to take Harry? Did Hagrid sense something wrong with Sirius, or was he just following orders from Dumbledore? When Sirius gave Hagrid his motorcycle and said he wouldn't need it anymore, did he realize he was going to try to kill Peter, or that Peter might kill him? What is that all about?

Peter, as secret keeper, would have had to tell him, I think, unless his previous knowledge of the whereabouts of their house still counted after the Fidelious Charm was performed. If it had to be Peter, it's not much of a stretch to figure Peter would have done so.

Hagrid didn't sense anything was amiss with Sirius at the time. He said so in the scene at the Hog's Head Inn just before Christmas in PoA. And, yes, I think Sirius left the house with the full intention of finding Peter Pettigrew.

[jordmundt6]

I seem to have done a better job the first time. Sirius went to check on Peter for a prearranged meeting. I think that might actually have been on Halloween. He showed up. Pettigrew wasn't there. He drove like a demon. He found the house, saw the wreckage, saw the bodies, and his godson with the scar. He realized what had happened. Incidentally, Sirius was probably included in the secret (told by the Secret-Keeper, Peter) but the enchantment prevented him from speaking. The only one who could tell Voldemort or anyone else where the hiding place was, was Peter. Remember, Kreacher was bound from speaking the secrets of the Order, so he could only tell Narcissa about the relationship between Harry and Sirius, not about Order business.

Hagrid came with orders from Dumbledore, probably to keep Harry in hiding until a prearranged meeting that night at 4 Privet Drive (probably enough time for Dumbledore to make the necessary preliminary arrangements to invoke the "ancient magic" that was to protect Harry). Sirius pleaded with Hagrid to give him Harry, Hagrid wouldn't budge. Sirius, knowing Hagrid couldn't or wasn't usually allowed to Apparate, offered his motorcycle as the fastest safest transportation for Harry and Apparated himself to find Pettigrew. This is where Sirius made his mistake. He didn't check Peter's hiding place again, or presumably Mrs. Pettigrew's place (Peter's "poor mother" as described by Fudge). Peter had to make a stop at one of those two places after the showdown he witnessed to pick up at least a spare cloak, and, possibly a knife. Actually, probably a knife. If he left his wand behind and they did a Priori Incantetem check on it and figured out he'd used it as a blade, they would have had to start asking questions. Come to think of it, did they even find his wand? It never said they did. That should have, but didn't raise a couple of red flags. Peter needed a spare cloak so that he could leave it at the scene with his blood on it when he transformed. You gotta give the little rat credit for thinking on his feet.

As for the rest of the wizarding world, EVERYBODY dropped what they were doing and began to party. It WAS an underground Mardi Gras. Hagrid was faithful with his charge, but I wouldn't be surprised if he stopped off to enjoy some of the good cheer (remember the Leaky Cauldron, the Hog's Head, the Three Broomsticks?). That alone could account for his lateness. Any number of people in the neighborhood could have reported the demise of Voldemort. Heck, PETER could have reported it and avoided suspicion because nobody thought he was the Secret-Keeper. But I'm sure there were other members of the Order around in invisibility cloaks (Moody? Arthur? Dung? any of these is possible). But once the news got out it was a holiday. Flocks of owls in all directions (probably some with international mail to deliver) shooting stars from Dedalus, poor guy, never did have much sense. Anyway, I think a combination of my two explanations might get a little closer to the truth. We know that the scar was from the curse because the curse is what caused the pain in Harrry's forehead (remember his memories of the attack, all of them, include a blinding flash of green light followed by a severe pain in his forehead).

EDIT: Black did not fear being killed by Peter. He didn't figure Peter had the talent or the guts to face him down in a duel. He was out for REVENGE and the motorcycle was too traceable (plus his godson needed quick, safe transport, if he thought about that at all he probably figured that the motorcycle was a good alternative to having Hagrid try Apparating--which we know he can do in the same way that Dumbledore can, no humungus crack before he vanished from the train station in SS).

[Morgan LeFay]

Peter, as secret keeper, would have had to tell him, I think, unless his previous knowledge of the whereabouts of their house still counted after the Fidelious Charm was performed. If it had to be Peter, it's not much of a stretch to figure Peter would have done so.

Hagrid didn't sense anything was amiss with Sirius at the time. He said so in the scene at the Hog's Head Inn just before Christmas in PoA. And, yes, I think Sirius left the house with the full intention of finding Peter Pettigrew.

It was at The Three Broomsticks, not The Hog's Head Inn

Well, I think Sirius knew where Potters lived. I bet he were there before the Fidelius charm, so even if Peter didn't tell him, he would know where to go, even if he didn't see the house. Hagrid was told I think, and that was the one thing why he had the mission to bring Harry to Dursleys.
It could took the same time for Sirius and Hagrid to go to GH, but it's also possible, that Sirius was there, waiting for somebody to tell him what happened.

It must have take some time for DD to:
1. Find out about LV downfall.
2. Learn what had happened.
3. Decide what to do with Harry.
4. Tell Hagrid to go there and bring him on Privet Drive.
5. Wait for Hagrid to go.

I think point 1st took longest time.
James and Lily were propably killed in the night, just before midnight (october 31st), and Harry was in Little W. 8pm next day.

[jordmundt6]

That's right, it could have been just before midnight. That accounts for at least some of the time and Dumbledore would have had to be on the go all day to set up the multiple protections for Harry.

[purplehawk]

It was at The Three Broomsticks, not The Hog's Head Inn.

You're right. My bad. I always confuse the bars for some reason.

Jordmundt, I love your timelines! They're a fascinating read, no doubt about it! And I think you've hit the nail on the head. Great job!

[jordmundt6]

Thanks--important note on my previous analysis:

It's unclear what the AK does to surrounding objects if it misses its target. I think based on the first failed attempt to kill Harry at the Ministry we can safely say that as originally conceived the AK leaves no mark on furniture or buildings. This leads me to believe that Voldemort doctored his future spells to blast the statue away (remember the first one that hit the statue did not mark it).

[purplehawk]

One of his missed spells hit the guard desk and set it on fire, though.

Edit: I've just opened my book. The spell first levied at Harry "merely glanced off its chest as the statue flung out its arms, protecting Harry."

The second one was aimed at Dumbledore, "who turned and was gone in a whirling of his cloak."

The third, also aimed at Dumbledore, missed, "instead hitting the security guard's desk, which burst into flame."

The fourth hit the one-armed centaur which "shattered into a hundred pieces."

Fawkes ate the fifth one.

[jordmundt6]

Yeah he was doctoring them trying to pound it through the stone. With a pure AK, nothing happened. I don't remember it bursting into flames at the second time, but I think at the secnd or third time he blasted it apart. But at that point he was more focused on dealing with Dumbledore than dispatching Harry.

[purplehawk]

Yeah he was doctoring them trying to pound it through the stone. With a pure AK, nothing happened. I don't remember it bursting into flames at the second time, but I think at the secnd or third time he blasted it apart. But at that point he was more focused on dealing with Dumbledore than dispatching Harry.

Truly! I edited my post to give the play-by-play above.

[jordmundt6]

Guess he figured he needed extra zip when fighting Dumbledore, huh? But even with that zip it's nothing close to bringing down a cottage or a house. So something else must have been unleashed then. It would have been interesting to know what it LOOKED like when Harry expelled Voldemort from himself. Plus, how did Dumbledore know what happened in that inner battle? He was there this time so he didn't ask for an explanation. Yet he knew that Harry's heart had saved him. How? Had Harry verbalized those thoughts during the struggle?

[purplehawk]

It says "the creature" used Harry to twice speak words Voldemort wished to say. It does not say that Harry actually verbalized his own thoughts, begging Dumbledore to kill him, to end it, and he could see Sirius again. I'm guessing Dumbledore was in a position to see Harry full in the face. If he could catch a glint of Voldemort behind Harry's eyes earlier, maybe he could also read what Harry was pleading with him to do?

[Jessica]

It was at The Three Broomsticks, not The Hog's Head Inn

Well, I think Sirius knew where Potters lived. I bet he were there before the Fidelius charm, so even if Peter didn't tell him, he would know where to go, even if he didn't see the house. Hagrid was told I think, and that was the one thing why he had the mission to bring Harry to Dursleys.
It could took the same time for Sirius and Hagrid to go to GH, but it's also possible, that Sirius was there, waiting for somebody to tell him what happened.

It must have take some time for DD to:
1. Find out about LV downfall.
2. Learn what had happened.
3. Decide what to do with Harry.
4. Tell Hagrid to go there and bring him on Privet Drive.
5. Wait for Hagrid to go.

I think point 1st took longest time.
James and Lily were propably killed in the night, just before midnight (october 31st), and Harry was in Little W. 8pm next day.

I have to respectfully disagree on 1. I'm sure Dumbledore had Godric's Hollow as well wired as he does Harry.

Personally I think #3 is the most reasonable. Also I think more was done with Harry that day than we know. . .

[Sabine]

Well after all I still find the proceedings of this special night very irritating.

Where do I start now...

Hagrid was the first one at the "scene of the crime"

"I musta bin the last ter see him before he killed all them people! It was me what rescued Harry from Lily an' James's house after they was killed! Jus' got him outta ruins, poor little thing, with a great slash across the forehead, an' his parents dead ... an Sirius Black turns up, on that flyin' motorbike he used ter ride.

PoA Bloomsbury paperback pg. 153

This means Dumbledore knew already and had sent Hagrid. Leaves the question: Why send Hagrid???? What on earth could be so important to hold him from looking for himself???

After all -- Dumbledore knew the prophecy - he at least should have known what was possibly in store for the world - someone sends word about the raid at the potters and he SENDS HAGRID??????????

He personally shows up at the MoM to sort things out for Harry not being expelled.... he personally shows up at Harrys hearing .... he sure shows up personally at the battle in the DoM ... but when someone tells him the Potters have been attacked HE SENDS HAGRID????????

I know he trusts Hagrid - but to me that smells "fishy"

Imagine - you KNOW that there a two boys, one of them will be able to save the world from the dark lord. you recieve word that the hiddingplace of one boy was raided ... would you send someone or rather go look for yourself?

This would only make some sense if the person who told Dumbledore about it knew that the Potters are dead and Harry alive AND if Dumbledore trusted this person a lot.

Which could lead to the conclusion that there were indeed members of the order round GH. Which would also lead to the conclusion that there indeed must have been "some battle" going on - because the member of the order wouldn't just have stood there and gaped. (Maybe some of the people in Moodys picture found their end just in this night).

Dumbledore would have stayed in Hogwarts. Hagrid showing up there really quick would mean that GH isn't too far from Hogwarts or maybe he used a thestral.

Then Sirius showed up. Hagrid comforted him AND told Sirius already that he was to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle.

And all this happens shortly after the raid - before all the people crowded the place!

And the wizarding world had their Mardi Gras

So Dumbledore already had set matters.

Hagrid leaves with Harry on Sirius's bike. So there is an enormous lap in time. And I surely would like to know where Hagrid and Harry have been for 20 hours or so.



The whole Hagrid/Sirius thing bothers me. If Sirius wasn't the secret-keeper anymore, if he had indeed switched with Peter, then he wouldn't have "known" where the Potters were, right? Does that make sense? So did he follow Hagrid there? And where was he planning to take Harry? Did Hagrid sense something wrong with Sirius, or was he just following orders from Dumbledore? When Sirius gave Hagrid his motorcycle and said he wouldn't need it anymore, did he realize he was going to try to kill Peter, or that Peter might kill him? What is that all about?

One thing is for certain, to me. A small baby with a scar like that must have bled alot. It is disturbing to think about him lying there in pain. He would have needed medical attention right away, and food and warmth. I think he was taken somewhere for all that. I don't think St. Mungo's is the answer, but maybe back to Hogwarts. There definitely is some missing time, in my opinion.

My understanding of that fidelius charm is as follows:

One person is the secret keeper and only this person can tell others were that place is. Sirius can know about it, but he can't tell. He can even go there and someone who follows would only see him vanish at some point. And without knowing where exactly the other one goes wouldn't be able to follow.

Otherwise it wouldn't make any sense for Dumbledore to be the secretkeeper of the headquarters and letting all those people in. I wouldn't put my hand in the fire for Dung f.i. for keeping his overlarge mouth shut if he could tell.

Oh well - I'm still not any wiser about this night.

Sabine

[hesdead-dealwithit]

This means Dumbledore knew already and had sent Hagrid. Leaves the question: Why send Hagrid???? What on earth could be so important to hold him from looking for himself???

As I think was mentioned in OotP, most people don't realize how dangerous the situation was right after Voldemort was vanquished. For Harry, sure. But for everyone else, also. The DEs could easily have been seeking revenge that day, and Dumbledore went to help out. Or maybe, DD thought that since Harry hadn't died when the AK hit him, he would have some sort of protection, and nothing could kill him at the moment. Neville, however, could be killed, and there was still an outside chance that he was the prophecied one. So maybe DD thought, or knew, that Harry couldn't be harmed and what was most important was protecting the Longbottoms.

[Sabine]

As I think was mentioned in OotP, most people don't realize how dangerous the situation was right after Voldemort was vanquished. For Harry, sure. But for everyone else, also. The DEs could easily have been seeking revenge that day, and Dumbledore went to help out. Or maybe, DD thought that since Harry hadn't died when the AK hit him, he would have some sort of protection, and nothing could kill him at the moment. Neville, however, could be killed, and there was still an outside chance that he was the prophecied one. So maybe DD thought, or knew, that Harry couldn't be harmed and what was most important was protecting the Longbottoms.

I wouldn't think that special moment shortly after the attack was so dangerous. Even one day later McGonegal wasn't completely sure on the matter.

And since it was Halloween and there were students at Hogwarts, at least thats what I assume, Dumbledore would most probably be there.

And if Dumbledore would have been told from some reliable source, that Voldemort met his downfall there, one could almost for sure suppose that the DE's would need at least some time for the news to "settle down" in them and not going to kill other people the minute they heard about?

Sabine

[jordmundt6]

I'd have to disagree. If Peter had stuck around instead of booking as soon as he saw the house flinch and his master diappear (again probably with one of his patented screams), Harry could have been eliminated then and there (maybe). If Dumbledore goes personally to fetch Harry, every DE in the UK would show up trying to get a crack at the kid. Dumbledore would have tipped his hand by suggesting that HE was sure that Harry was the kid from the prophecy and Harry would have had a giant bullseye on his head before order could be restored. After a return to peace the target doesn't matter so much because DEs can't risk getting exposed. But, in the last few hours of their free activity when some of them still refuse to believe Voldemort is gone, going to FETCH Harry would have been signing the child's death warrant. I have a feeling that some of what Dumbledore did (in between running around and setting up the protections) is spend a good deal of time with the Longbottoms. A last attempt to throw suspicion off Harry (hey maybe it fooled Crabbe and Goyle Sr.) and that extended meeting led some within the DEs to believe that the Longbottoms were the most crucial remaining cog in the Order and would, because of their closeness to Dumbledore, know where Voldemort was. Possibly they could have been there and they could have been the ones really responsible for his downfall and not some "foul little half-blood [baby]." And whaddya know Bella Lestrange took the bait. In the short term it guaranteed Harry's safety, it also ensured some of the most lethal DEs an extended stay in Azkaban, but it cost Neville his parents. Does this reaosning make any sense to anyone else?

[Sabine]

I'd have to disagree. If Peter had stuck around instead of booking as soon as he saw the house flinch and his master diappear (again probably with one of his patented screams), Harry could have been eliminated then and there (maybe).

I too do disagree :) No, Harry couldn't have been eliminated. The prophecy says: "and one has to die from the hand of the other ..." And since Voldemort has vanished into thin air there was no other who could do that job in this particular night.

At least Dumbledore knew that. He knew the prophecy and he wouldn't be Dumbledore if he hadn't figured out that Harry was the ONE when he heard that Harry not only survived the attack but sent Voldemort into .... I don't know where.

If Dumbledore goes personally to fetch Harry, every DE in the UK would show up trying to get a crack at the kid. Dumbledore would have tipped his hand by suggesting that HE was sure that Harry was the kid from the prophecy and Harry would have had a giant bullseye on his head before order could be restored. After a return to peace the target doesn't matter so much because DEs can't risk getting exposed. But, in the last few hours of their free activity when some of them still refuse to believe Voldemort is gone, going to FETCH Harry would have been signing the child's death warrant.

Dumbledore is very good in doing things secretly including coming and going. We can't suppose he sent Hagrid NOT in some secret mission. Or at least if we do suppose he sent Hagrid there in some "official" sort of style than what would be the great deal in assuming that Dumbledore sent Hagrid into hidding for 20 hours before he showed up in Privet Drive?

I have a feeling that some of what Dumbledore did (in between running around and setting up the protections) is spend a good deal of time with the Longbottoms. A last attempt to throw suspicion off Harry (hey maybe it fooled Crabbe and Goyle Sr.) and that extended meeting led some within the DEs to believe that the Longbottoms were the most crucial remaining cog in the Order and would, because of their closeness to Dumbledore, know where Voldemort was. Possibly they could have been there and they could have been the ones really responsible for his downfall and not some "foul little half-blood [baby]." And whaddya know Bella Lestrange took the bait. In the short term it guaranteed Harry's safety, it also ensured some of the most lethal DEs an extended stay in Azkaban, but it cost Neville his parents. Does this reaosning make any sense to anyone else?

I'm sorry but what good would that do? Even Vernon heard rumors about the Potters and their son Harry on his way to work in the morning.

No, sorry, I'm not convinced that Dumbledore, knowing that the ONE has lost his parents that night would go out and try to risk the lifes of the Longbottoms as well.

Sabine

[purplehawk]

Does this reaosning make any sense to anyone else?

I think so. I also think hesdead_dealwithit is right on the money with his take on the dangerous situation immediately following the Potters' deaths. Indeed, Dumbledore speaks of it in OotP:

"Voldemort had been vanquished hours before, but his supporters - and many of them are almost as terrible as he - were still at large, angry, desperate, and violent."

Sirius spoke a little on the subject, too, in PoA:

"You haven't been hiding from me for twelve years. You've been hiding from Voldemort's old supporters. I heard things in Azkaban, Peter... They all think you're dead, or you'd have to answer to them... I've heard them screaming all sorts of things in their sleep. Sounds like they think the double-crosser double-crossed them. Voldemort went to the Potters on your information... and Voldemort met his downfall there... "

Harry's excursion into Dumbledore's pensieve, just before the third task of the TriWizard Tournament, also illustrates something of the explosiveness of the situation immediately following Voldemort's fall. People were celebrating in the streets, sure, but Dumbledore, members of the Order, and the aurors were struggling like anything to preserve their right to do so.

Another good resource as to the terror Voldemort's supporters wielded is the chapter "The Beetle at Bay" in OotP, when the ten death eaters "escaped" from Azkaban.

I think Dumbledore was heavily occupied immediately after the Potters were killed and into the following day. At some point he placed the blood-bond charm on Harry. We know that didn't happen in front of the Dursley's house; yet we know it was done. I think Harry was with Hagrid when that happened, either at Hogwarts or possibly in St. Mungo's. Wherever he was, he would have received medical treatment and he would be under Dumbledore's supervision and care.

Edit: Sabine, I missed your post. Must have been typing this one. I agree Dumbledore would never endanger the Longbottoms.

[casimir]

hehe there were just 69 posts hehehehehahahga

[Sabine]

Edit: Sabine, I missed your post. Must have been typing this one. I agree Dumbledore would never endanger the Longbottoms.

Sometimes I really think this "not double-posting" is really stessing and sometimes perfectly senseless - I almost missed that one

Sabine

[jordmundt6]

I don't think Dumbledore would purposely endanger the Longbottoms either. But what if what he did was apprise the Longbottoms of the situation as important members of the Order, first of all to let them know that their son had been ruled out and SHOULD for the forseeable future, be out of danger. He likes good news a lot better than bad news. Plus, we know that Frank and Alice were, at one time, very powerful and resourceful, maybe he used their help in constructing the protection for Harry. And some die-hard DEs heard rumors about the Potters and their son Harry and figured that it was ABSURD that the Dark Lord would be vanquished by an infant half-blood. Remember that almost 24 hours after it happened McGonagall still wasn't sure what to believe. Imagine Bellatrix hearing the news. She'd think it was ridiculous. And then when the reports of Voldemort's diappareance or demise or whatever became stronger she believed it but figured something or someone else had to be responsible because she couldn't accept that a half-blood much less a half-blood baby could do all that damage. So, if you're a DE and you think the explanation for Voldemort's disappeareance is a sham, who would you look to IMMEDIATELY to find the real source of the catastrophe. Dumbledore. So, who has Dumbledore been spending the most time with? Those blood traitors, the Longbottoms. They may not be responsible directly, but maybe Dumbledore confided in them how he did it. Without Vodlemort's assistance, directly attacking Dumbledore is foolhardy. But the Longbottoms, yes, the Longbottoms could be quite cooperative given the right incentive....and that would take some time to get backers and put together a plan. Dumbledore didn't use them as a beard, but his closeness to them after the event made them a target. Does that make more sense, Sabine (& hawk)?

[hesdead-dealwithit]

No, sorry, I'm not convinced that Dumbledore, knowing that the ONE has lost his parents that night would go out and try to risk the lifes of the Longbottoms as well.
But he wasn't. If I am right, and Dumbledore wento the Longbottoms, the effect was that the Longbottoms got more protection than they would have - specifically, Neville go the necessary protection. Remember, it was a year afterwards that Bella and Co. tortured the Longbottoms.

[Sabine]

I don't think Dumbledore would purposely endanger the Longbottoms either. But what if what he did was apprise the Longbottoms of the situation as important members of the Order, first of all to let them know that their son had been ruled out and SHOULD for the forseeable future, be out of danger. He likes good news a lot better than bad news. Plus, we know that Frank and Alice were, at one time, very powerful and resourceful, maybe he used their help in constructing the protection for Harry.

I really don't want to sound like I'm out for some fight :)

Sure Dumbledore likes good news, but he would after all do what should have to be done first after such an event.

It could have been many things since getting Harry obviously wasn't that urgent than anything other. But in my opinion would it be very unwise to first thing of all tell the Longbottoms that their son is out of danger. Especially not if it was such a dangerous time as you and purplehawk pointed it out to me. And I don't deny that the Longbottoms where very powerful. But Dumbledore, as far as I can tell, is a most powerful and skilled wizard all by himself. I just don't see Dumbledore going along and searching for someones advice.

He more seems to be the person who makes decicions all on his own.


So, if you're a DE and you think the explanation for Voldemort's disappeareance is a sham, who would you look to IMMEDIATELY to find the real source of the catastrophe. Dumbledore.

That is one reason I could accept for Dumbledore not showing up at the scene of the crime. But on the other hand, as I said before, Dumbledore is very good in doing things very secretly - including his coming and going someplace.

As a matter of fact I tend to believe that he was busy setting the arangements for the protection he wanted to seal for Harry (I've forgotten who said that - sorry)

As for the Longbottoms being a target for the DE's: I'm still very unsure if the reason we've heard at the trial for the attack was the right reason. But since we don't know if they where hidding too, and if so how long they've been hidden - we're not really able to guess about that.

Sabine

[purplehawk]

I think Sabine has the right cards. We saw a glimpse of how Dumbledore can manage to direct activities in several places at once - all from his office - when Arthur Weasley was bitten. He can use Fawkes, who was IMO first on the scene in Godric's Hollow and quite possibly took tidings to the Longbottoms and other members of the Order. He can also use well-placed portraits, portkeys, floo powder, and any or all of those mysterious little instruments in his office.

Remember the little contraption he used in OotP to determine if Harry had been possessed by Voldemort? "Naturally... but in essence divided?" Well, don't laugh, please, but I think of that instrument as a "Voldometer." I think it's Dumbledore's way of keeping tabs on Voldemort.

If that is true, he would already have known Voldemort was gone and sent out messages to all the particulars to that effect, while he himself set about the business of protecting Harry and containing the Death Eaters - who were probably scurrying about like ants when their hill is disturbed or the queen dies. As I've said before, I believe Harry was taken from the scene (by Hagrid) and brought straight to Hogwarts. Hagrid was the babysitter, perhaps Madame Pomfrey attended to Harry's wound, and Dumbledore was putting together Harry's security net.

[Sabine]

Remember the little contraption he used in OotP to determine if Harry had been possessed by Voldemort? "Naturally... but in essence divided?" Well, don't laugh, please, but I think of that instrument as a "Voldometer." I think it's Dumbledore's way of keeping tabs on Voldemort.


No I don't laugh at all. Actually I think we could do some really hard thinking about the possibility of Grindlewald being Tom's Grandfather and being defeated by Dumbledore.

There was some "hint" somewhere in the Prophecy 2 thread, about defeating some dark power and being the mentor for the next prophecied one - remember? That Voldometer could fit neatly in there.....

Sabine

[purplehawk]

No I don't laugh at all. Actually I think we could do some really hard thinking about the possibility of Grindlewald being Tom's Grandfather and being defeated by Dumbledore.

There was some "hint" somewhere in the Prophecy 2 thread, about defeating some dark power and being the mentor for the next prophecied one - remember? That Voldometer could fit neatly in there.....

Sabine

That was Whiz's theory, I think. I remember it. Grindelwald being the Dark Lord Dumbledore vanquished...

[Drusilla]

[

Somebody magical saw the wreckage and reported it and also reported that Voldemort had disappeared. The Magical community of Britain gave way to frenzied celebration. Everyone who heard the news dispatched it to everyone they knew. (The newscast reported "floocks of owls flying in every direction since daybreak.") Everybody, and I do mean EVERYBODY dropped what they were doing and started celebrating. It was like an underground Mardi Gras. Dumbledore probably dispatched Hagrid sometime around midday after deciding on the Dursleys. Hagrid was probably waylaid a couple times (remember the Leaky Cauldron visit in the first book?). He got there that night. He met Sirius who had been checking arranged hiding places for his friends all day. Pettigrew missed their prearranged meeting that afternoon (November 1). Sirius immediately checked Pettigrew's residence (they were supposed to meet about sending Pettigrew to a safer hiding place), but it was deserted. Panicking, Sirius drove like a demon to get to Godric's Hollow. He saw the ruins of the house. He investigated. He found James' body. He found Lily's body. He figured out what happened. Hagrid showed up and found Harry. Sirius pleaded with Hagrid to give him Harry. Hagrid wouldn't. Sirius gave up, offered his bike as transport and Apparated off to try to find Pettigrew. His best friends inthe world were dead and it was his fault. The only thing on his mind was REVENGE. That Harry didn't die of exposure after all this is truly amazing.

Now comes the REALLY CONFUSING PART, ready? Here we go:

Voldemort killed James. The popular thinking is, then he killed Lily, then he tried to kill Harry. But one thing doesn't make any sense about that order. In Harry's memories from PoA, his mother is still screaming when he feels the burning pain in his forehead. Did the same curse pass through her and hit him?:??:[/QUOTE]


Jordmundt6,good posts (as usual). My breakup of events goes somethimg like this:
1)Godric's Hollow is attacked on the night of Halloween,1981.Voldemort kills the senior Potters,first James,then Lily,and then turns his wand on Harry. The curse (Avada Kedavra)fails to kill little Harry because of Lily's refusal,a few minutes prior to this,to stand aside and let Voldemort kill her son. The failed curse rebounds on Voldemort (who thanks to experiments with immortality cannot be killed) and in the absence of any other living being destroys the Potters' house.Voldemort ,lacking a corporeal body,flees -what happens to his wand we don't know.
2)The Potters' house becomes visible (the Fidelius Charm might have hidden it from view of both wizards and Muggles) and a member of the Order of the Phoenix sees the wreckage very shortly afterwards (perhaps a few minutes later) and alerts Dumbledore.Possibly the house is too wrecked for anyone to go inside without risking a cave-in.Dumbledore dispatches Hagrid to Godric's Hollow to survey the damage (he can't risk going himself,it might alert the Death Eaters).On Halloween night some time prior to this,Sirius Black arrives at Peter Pettigrew's hiding place,finds him gone and heads to Godric's Hollow shortly after Hagrid (who may have been the one to discover that Harry was still alive) , meets Hagrid,who has got Harry out of the ruins,petitions him for custody of Harry and on being refused that tells Hagrid to take his bike to get Harry to 4 Privet Drive and goes after Wormtail himself.Hagrid takes Harry and leaves.Here we get one important bit of information:Dumbledore knew where he had to send Harry almost as soon as he heard about the attack -it may have been a contingency plan he had ready in case he survived his parents,that he told Hagrid to put into effect if he found any survivors-in this case,Harry.
3)Dumbledore (and possibly,members of the Order of the Phoenix) spend most of 1 November 1981 putting protective spells,charms etc. on 4 Privet Drive in preparation for Harry's arrival.Harry spends the day in Hagrid's custody,possibly in hiding.Sometime during the day,Sirius Black corners Peter Pettigrew in a crowded Muggle street and is framed for the murder of the Potters,Pettigrew himself and twelve Muggles and is taken to Azkaban.In the course of the day,wizard Britain has found out about Voldemort's disappearance and what caused it,and is having a highly visible celebration.

[Sabine]

The failed curse rebounds on Voldemort (who thanks to experiments with immortality cannot be killed) and in THE ABSENCE OF ANY OTHER LIVING BEING destroys the Potters' house.

I somehow can't agree with that part. We've seen AK's going astray in that battle down in MoM. The AK's sure smashed some things but I very highly doubt, that it would have wrecked down the house.

I wonder if Hagrid not just oderdid it a bit when he told that he picked Harry out of the ruins of the house....

Sabine

[silver ink pot]

:agree: :agree: :agree: Drusilla: Great post! I like the idea of Dumbledore already having a contingency plan about the Dursleys, and putting it into motion, since he knew about the prophecy in advance. Of course, if Neville had been "chosen" his contingency plan would have been his grandmother. How sad for the Longbottoms that it worked out that way a year later. How sad that they weren't able to escape. Maybe their secret-keeper betrayed them as well?

By the way - your Snape signature is one of the funniest I've ever seen!

Purple Hawk: Lots of great points! Love the "Voldometer"!
Remember the little contraption he used in OotP to determine if Harry had been possessed by Voldemort? "Naturally... but in essence divided?" Well, don't laugh, please, but I think of that instrument as a "Voldometer." I think it's Dumbledore's way of keeping tabs on Voldemort.
I'd still love to know how Hagrid got to the house so fast.

And what about Harry's scar? Did someone else besides Voldemort give him the scar as a kind of protection? We know it looks like a rune - there was a thread about that. It was either "Eihwaz" or "Endings" which you can read about here:
http://www.mystic-mouse.co.uk/Runes/Eihwaz.htm
or "Jera" which means "Harvest" which is here:
http://www.mystic-mouse.co.uk/Runes/Jera.htm
or "Sowelu" which means "Sun" which is here:
http://www.mystic-mouse.co.uk/Runes/Sowelu.htm

Harry's mother could have given him the scar just before she died - I can't visualize how she did this - but maybe she "marked him" so the Dark Lord's Avada Kedavra wouldn't work on him. I don't know enough about runes to know what I'm talking about. But maybe that would explain why Harry remembers feeling the pain before hearing the scream?

[jordmundt6]

That fast? Well it depends, did he get there October 31st or November 1. If he got there October 31st, he probably Apparated DD style as we've seen him do in SS or he used a Portkey enchanted by Dumbledore.

Now, most of Dru's timeline makes sense, but I have to agree that a single AK no matter how much pepper Voldy put on it would not, could not, cause a house to be destroyed. And No, that wasn't Hagrid overdoing it with his umbrella. The house was like that when Hagrid showed up. Sirius and Hagrid met each other on the 31st and possibly Hagrid took him to sanctuary before the prearranged meeting (which he was late for--probably celebrated just a bit) at the Dursleys'. Now where that sanctuary was is a very good question. It could have been his hut, it could have been Hogwarts, it could have been a safehouse that Dumbledore designated. What caused the damage to the house was whatever Harry (possibly with the help of Lily's sacrificial protection) unleashed in response to Voldemort's AK. Whatever it was, it's a whole lot more powerful than any spell we've seen cast by anyone so far.

[Sabine]

And No, that wasn't Hagrid overdoing it with his umbrella. The house was like that when Hagrid showed up.

No I wasn't meaning that Hagrid wrecked the house down with his umbrella.

I just thought he didn't tell the facts perfectly right when telling the story. Maybe the house wasn't completely ruins but Hagrid told it like that - to make the story sound better.

If overdid was the wrong choice of word, what would have been the right one?

Sabine

[jordmundt6]

Sabine--The story of Harry's survival is one that even Rita Skeeter wouldn't need to embellish. Parts of the house were still standing, but it took a huge hit and there was rubble around which we know from both Hagrid and Sirius. They can't both be embellishing the same thing in the same way for different reasons, can they? Plus, the way Hagrid described how badly the house was damaged, Harry figured that anything kept there would have been destroyed. Hagrid implicitly agreed by saying that the inheritance wasn't kept in the house but at Gringotts.

[Sabine]

Sabine--The story of Harry's survival is one that even Rita Skeeter wouldn't need to embellish. Parts of the house were still standing, but it took a huge hit and there was rubble around which we know from both Hagrid and Sirius. They can't both be embellishing the same thing in the same way for different reasons, can they? Plus, the way Hagrid described how badly the house was damaged, Harry figured that anything kept there would have been destroyed. Hagrid implicitly agreed by saying that the inheritance wasn't kept in the house but at Gringotts.

Oups - I forgot all about Sirius telling the same story - thanks for reminding me :-)

So- then - what caused the house to crumble to pieces?

My opinion was, that there was more of a battle going on than just Voldemort knocking on the door...

Was it something that could have happend when Voldemort was driven out of his body? Does that seem likely?

Sabine

[purplehawk]

Isn't it possible James' battle with Voldemort (and perhaps others) is the cause of the wreckage? I kinda doubt James just stood still and traded AK curses with Voldemort. If he was on the move and Voldemort stalking him, it isn't unreasonable to assume Voldemort blasted a thing or two out of the way.

[Sabine]

Isn't it possible James' battle with Voldemort (and perhaps others) is the cause of the wreckage? I kinda doubt James just stood still and traded AK curses with Voldemort. If he was on the move and Voldemort stalking him, it isn't unreasonable to assume Voldemort blasted a thing or two out of the way.

I wouldn't say anything against "a thing or two" but the whole house??? Mustn't have Voldemorts goal been to get to Harry real quick - and see thats the other thing why I just can't believe Voldemort went on his own to Godrics Hollow.

He couldn't have thought that the Potters would give him their child without fight - so he would have brought death eaters along. And I think they wouldn't spend the time "playing around" like they did in the MoM ... they wanted Harry dead, so I assume they would well have fired an AK at the very moment the door opened.

Sabine

[purplehawk]

I wouldn't say anything against "a thing or two" but the whole house??? Mustn't have Voldemorts goal been to get to Harry real quick - and see thats the other thing why I just can't believe Voldemort went on his own to Godrics Hollow.

I believe he wasn't alone. Pettigrew was there at the least and probably more death eaters as well.

He couldn't have thought that the Potters would give him their child without fight - so he would have brought death eaters along. And I think they wouldn't spend the time "playing around" like they did in the MoM ... they wanted Harry dead, so I assume they would well have fired an AK at the very moment the door opened.

They might have... This quote comes to mind:

"Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off - "

The sounds of someone stumbling from a room - a door bursting open - a cackle of high-pitched laughter -

That passage is from Harry's first patronus lesson with Lupin.

[jordmundt6]

He might have gone alone, or just with Pettigrew as a witness of his triumph. Remember he doesn't want his underlings stealing his glory. As far as James' battle with the others being the cause of the wreckage--No, I don't think so because Voldemort was there in about 10 seconds and there were no loud crashes in the next room after James left or reverberations in the room Harry was in. Whatever it was, it was all Harry and Lily, not James.

Also James said "It's HIM." Not "HE's with them." Indicates that James only perceived Voldemort. Not a surprise, Pettigrew doesn't stick his neck out for anyone.

[Drusilla]

You may be right,jordmundt6,but isn't it possible that the curse Voldemort used on Harry, if it was an Avada Kedavra, was a really strong one-fuelled by anger towards Lily for blocking his way, and hatred towards Harry for being the only one who could defeat him? We've seen that certain spells work more powerfully when the intention behind them is firmly in place-one case in point being Harry's Patronus Charm on the night Sirius escaped-it worked because he knew he could do it and desperately wanted to save Sirius.So maybe the killing curse he aimed at Harry WAS powerful enough (thanks to anger,hatred etc.) to flatten the house.

[jordmundt6]

I would think if Voldemort were capable of that kind of zip on his AK we'd have seen it when he tried to kill Harry and the statue got in the way or when he fired the AKs at Dumbledore. They were powerful, but not even in the same galaxy as whatever was unleashed in Godric's Hollow. All of which leads me to believe that it had to be something Harry (possibly with Lily's help, possibly alone) released.

[purplehawk]

I just remembered something. Pettigrew blasted a whole street apart the day after Lily and James were killed, leaving a gaping crater where the street had been. If he was with Voldemort at Godric's Hollow, it could very well have been him who trashed the house.

[jordmundt6]

And his purpose would be what?--covering evidence. This was the equivalent of a major gas explosion in that the crater was wide and maybe a dozen feet deep and cracked the swere. But put that in a house and I don't think you'll necessarily level it without some assistance from a simultaneous fire. Besides Pettigrew knew not to interfere with Voldemort's moment of triumph and had the sense to book right out of there to avoid Sirius, who he knew would be suspicious and if he heard about an attack would be heading right over there. No, Pettigrew has some resourcefulness and more juice than anyone gives him credit for, but more than his master? Nah.

[[Pretty]_[Unicorn]]

I'd imagine that HP was transferred with the most security and precautious steps were taken to geting him safe to the Dursleys which was a little time consuming. Why would they just take a long time for no reason. DD would want to get him out and in as fast but as safe as possible.

[purplehawk]

I dunno, jordmundt... someone trashed or leveled that house, someone walked off with Voldemort's wand. It seems so likely Pettigrew was that someone.

The "gas explosion" was the term the MoM forced on the incident to disguise the fact it was a magical curse that blew up the street and killed all those people. There is no mention whatsoever of fire in that explosion - and, more importantly, none in Hagrid's description of the scene in Godric's Hollow, nor in Sirius' telling of the tale.

Why would Pettigrew do this? I think maybe to cover the evidence again... remember Sirius' words about the death eaters expounding theories that the "double-crosser double-crossed them?" I think Pettigrew wanted to hide something, and if he killed the already injured baby Harry, all the better.

I really believe Fawkes was first on the scene, followed shortly by Hagrid and then Sirius. After their discussion, Hagrid took Harry away - probably to Hogwarts - where he remained until it was time to leave him with his aunt and uncle.

[silver ink pot]

Purplehawk: As usual, your ideas are great:



I really believe Fawkes was first on the scene, followed shortly by Hagrid and then Sirius. After their discussion, Hagrid took Harry away - probably to Hogwarts - where he remained until it was time to leave him with his aunt and uncle.
I love the idea of Fawkes being on the scene first! But that leads me to the question of the scar! Was there a scar left on Harry's arm after the basilisk tooth pierced it? Seems like there was, but I can't remember. I'll have to look, but in one book he is listing his injuries, including where Voldemort took his blood in the graveyard.

:scared: If Harry was healed by the Phoenix, would he still have a scar?

That makes me wonder about his eyes, too. What if his eyes changed color or quality or something after being healed by the Phoenix. Wow, that would explain alot, wouldn't it - all their magic might not be because of Lily, but because of Fawkes! Maybe that is one reason Harry is so sympathetic to people, hmmmm.

[jordmundt6]

No, eye-color cannot be changed by the healing of the phoenix. No magic can heal the dead, which we know. But also, psychological injuries cannot be healed by phoenix tears (Longbottoms are still in St. Mungo's after all). Part of the wound is physical, but part of it is power-sharing that Fawkes couldn't reverse. If all there was was a scar, I'm sure he could heal it, but there was more to the scar than just the physical mark. And no, the basilisk's tooth didn't leave a scar and neither did the leg injury from GoF.

[Masterfroggy]

I dunno, jordmundt... someone trashed or leveled that house, someone walked off with Voldemort's wand. It seems so likely Pettigrew was that someone.

The "gas explosion" was the term the MoM forced on the incident to disguise the fact it was a magical curse that blew up the street and killed all those people. There is no mention whatsoever of fire in that explosion - and, more importantly, none in Hagrid's description of the scene in Godric's Hollow, nor in Sirius' telling of the tale.

Why would Pettigrew do this? I think maybe to cover the evidence again... remember Sirius' words about the death eaters expounding theories that the "double-crosser double-crossed them?" I think Pettigrew wanted to hide something, and if he killed the already injured baby Harry, all the better.

I really believe Fawkes was first on the scene, followed shortly by Hagrid and then Sirius. After their discussion, Hagrid took Harry away - probably to Hogwarts - where he remained until it was time to leave him with his aunt and uncle.

When I first read the book I thought it a simple and clear case of that amount of magic being fired at something so well protected (Harry that is) the magic rebounded with such force that Lord Voldemort was destroyed, and his destruction was the release of energy that flattened the house, leaving Harry buried under the rubble.

(We were later to learn about Death Eaters)
Death Eaters if there were any there at the time, other than Peter, were either all stunned by the force of the blast, caused by Lord Voldermorts demise or running as soon as things stopped going their way.

Hagrid arrives at the same time or just before Sirius, they dig out Harry and his parents who are unmarked, Hagrid comes across Harry first. Hagrid follows Dumbledore's instruction that no one is to touch Harry until he is taken some where safe so Hagrid wouldn't let Sirius have him.

Becuase there was no sign of Lord Voldermort, (His body was just atoms), people questioned the fact he is dead

"I suppose he has really gone, Dumbledore?" (Professor McGonagall)

(My reasoning about this next bit came later at the time we knew nothing about the Hospital)

Hagrid takes Harry to St'Mungos Flying over Bristol in the process, (why he flew over Bristol, either JKR having lived ther for a number of years wanted to mention her root in her first story, or perhaps Wiizards use the landmarks on the ground much in the same way as the pilots of light aircraft do, in which case he would follow the street lights of the roads below until he got to the M4/M5 motorway interchange and then follow the headlights of the cars up the motorway all the way to London, Hagrid then takes him to St' Mungos to get him checked out, find someone to look, after his needs, feed him and change him, that sort of thing have a look at the scar, let Harry rest until it was time to go, babys tend to sleep a lot, and it is not untill after it gets dark, that Hagrid takes him to Dumbledore.

Harry was sleeping when Hagrid arrived, and a baby that has not been fed or changed for 24 hours would not be asleep
*Thinks back to my daughters first eleven days when she did not feed or sleep at all*
Owls having being sent too and fro, Dumbledore spents time writing the letter to the Dursleys and placing the many charms on it, waits for the night time, Hagrig leaves the Hospital drops of Harry at the Dursleys and then leaves to return the bike to "young Sirius Black"

The rest is in the books.

MasterFroggy

All New and Improved
Harry Potter Encyclopaedia
www.masterfroggy1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

[purplehawk]

That's one way of looking at it, Master Froggy. In fact, it's almost tit-for-tat the way I saw it the first time I read it. The scene in OotP in Dumbledore's office, right after Arthur Weasley's injury, changed my mind about a lot of things - Fawkes and that Voldometer not least among them. Dumbledore has some very cool ways of gathering news and dispatching help where it is needed.

[Drusilla]

Masterfroggy,great post! You have a really good point there,about Voldemort's separation from his body being part of the cause of the collapse of the house.It makes perfect sense. Also, we've seen that some very powerful wandless magic is caused by emotions-in Voldie's case,pain,and possibly anger (on realizing that the curse had failed). Couldn't that,ALONG with the obviously bad energy coming from possibly the most evil Dark wizard of all time,have been released when the curse hit Voldemort,and ultimately responsible for totalling the house(Harry,of course,being saved by his inborn magical protection and ultimately found first by either Fawkes or Hagrid)?

[jordmundt6]

But that's just it, Voldy only hung onto his bare existence as the lowest form of parasitic spirit by the skin of his teeth. He was stripped of that power. He didn't even have time to realize or react that the curse failed. From his point of view it was curse-kill, curse--unbearable pain after which he had to force himself to exist, moment by moment. His emotions did not cause the destruction. Which brings us back to Harry. What in the WORLD did HP unleash that night as 15-month old?? It's more powerful than anything we've seen from anyone. Not Voldemort, not Dumbledore, no one has matched it. We have no clue what it was, and to be honest, Dumbledore only has clues, not the whole answer at this point. Whatever it was, I think Harry tapped into it again at the Ministry when he forced Voldemort to flee, but we still can't determine quite what it is.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

What in the WORLD did HP unleash that night as 15-month old??
Well, did he unleash anything at all? That's not definite. Remember, Harry didn't attack anyone, he just caused a curse to backfire. Unleashing is an offensive technique, blocking is a defensive one. The fact that Voldemort was nearly destroyed as a result of the blocking is just sheer luck.

That is why relating what caused the spell to backfire is in my opinion not definitely related to what forced Voldemort out of his body in the Atrium. The first is something that he used as a block, that was provided by someone else, that was destroyed when Voldemort was reborn, the second is something that Harry himself wielded, after the protection was gone. Unless you say that what Lily put in to Harry was deeper than the outside protection that stopped Voldemort from killing or even touching Harry, there is no relation between the two. It is possible that what Lily did had deeper ramifications than what was destroyed in the rebirthing ceremony, but there is no clear evidence to back that up.

[jordmundt6]

Okay, here's the thing. Everybody gives Lily most of the credit because of her sacrifce as a tremendous countercharm, but if it had worked properly, the AK would not have marked Harry. Whatever totaled nearly totaled his parents house happened after the curse actually hit him. So, it had to be Harry that did it. But whatever he did, he did on instinct. It's the only thing that he could use.

[purplehawk]

At fifteen months of age, there isn't a whole lot Harry could have done, though, jordmundt. He was pretty darned helpless - a mere baby.

I still think Wormtail leveled the house on his way out... probably to cover "evidence" that might ascertain he had been there when the Potters were attacked. It fits when you consider he blew up an entire street the very next day.

[jordmundt6]

I submit again that the explosion, or whatever happened at the Potters' house was on a much grander scale than Pettigrew's curse. Plus, why the blazes would Peter need to rely on anyone if he had more juice than Voldemort or Dumbledore? Makes no sense. He'd be an uberconfident man on the run ready to take anyone on, not a snivelling little rat hiding in various boy's room for more than a decade.

No, Harry couldn't do an awful lot except for a reflex action. And the nature of his reflex is truly awesome, its in the same family as power that he tapped into in the Ministry when he expelled Voldemort.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Okay, here's the thing. Everybody gives Lily most of the credit because of her sacrifce as a tremendous countercharm, but if it had worked properly, the AK would not have marked Harry. Whatever totaled nearly totaled his parents house happened after the curse actually hit him. So, it had to be Harry that did it. But whatever he did, he did on instinct. It's the only thing that he could use.
Well, since we don't know what it was that Lily did, maybe it did work properly. After all, it was prophecied that LV would mark Harry. So I think whatever Lily did did work properly.

About the totaled house, well, there are lots of possible theories about how that happened. Maybe it was just a result of the backfire of the AK, maybe since it seems that magic at its deepest is based on emotion, it was LV's emotions right after he was hit (pain, etc.) that brought it down, whatever. I think Harry was a passive user of the power that will vanquish Voldemort, not an attacker. After all, he was one year old!

[jordmundt6]

It can't have. The countercharm was designed to protect Harry, block the AK. It didn't work. The curse made it through the protection. But it did absorb part of it, remember AK does not mark the victim. It wasn't what she wanted, but it served the purpose it needed to. So, Harry had to have finished the job on his own (stripping Voldemort of his body).

[purplehawk]

It can't have. The countercharm was designed to protect Harry, block the AK. It didn't work. The curse made it through the protection. But it did absorb part of it, remember AK does not mark the victim. It wasn't what she wanted, but it served the purpose it needed to. So, Harry had to have finished the job on his own (stripping Voldemort of his body).

How do you know it didn't work, though? The answer has to be that you don't know, jordmundt, nor can you know Harry did anything on his own. The first chapter of SS/PS, "The Boy Who Lived," has McGonagall looking at Harry's cut and asking if that was where the curse touched him - and Dumbledore replying that it was indeed. This is in complete concert with the prophecy, which foretold that Voldemort (or the Dark Lord) would mark the child as his equal. He left that scar on Harry's forehead because he had to under the terms of the prophecy. We have this much in canon... in JK's own words.

Later, in CoS, Riddle acknowledged it as a powerful counter-charm - and let's not forget Dumbledore has maintained all along that Harry survived because of what his mother did that night.

[jordmundt6]

What's the purpose of a countercurse? To block a curse. Not slow it down--block it. What good would it do Harry to set up say a Shield Charm ("Protego") and have it slow down but not block an attack, Occlumency, a Stunner, you pick the attack. If the defense doesn't offer effective protection, it doesn't work, it's a failure. Lily's protection is considered a succcess not because it was completely successful (a total protection) but that it was more successful than anything tried before--the person survived the attack despite serious injury and magical after-effects. I don't think Lily, if asked, would consider that a genuine success. Like Molly she wants Harry spared. She doesn't want to make the choice between a quick unmarked death and survival with severe pain. She's shooting for total protection. Molly's maternal instincts are a good way to look at it. Lily may be a realist, but she can't have planned for the scar. She didn't feign her panic.

Edit: Actually Hawk--I think you should check PS again. Dumbledore wasn't explaining why Harry survived that first attack. He said initially, and he's never wavered from this "We can only guess...we may never know." What he did explain to Harry was why Quirrel/Voldemort couldn't touch him and Quirrel was killed. Lily's sacrifice survived and marked him, not as a scar, but lived as a magic in his very skin, a magic based on unconditional love that Voldemort can neither comprehend nor cope with. It was agony to touch something that pure and wholesome, it ended Quirrel's cursed life. Harry picked the ball up from there and he told Riddle that "I know why you couldn't KILL me." "My common, MUGGLE-BORN mother" "died to save me." I think it's basically part of a dique. Dumbledore still hasn't laid all his cards on the table yet. If that were the only thing protecting Harry outside the Dursleys and Voldemort found a way around it, Dumbledore would be crestfallen, dejected, weary, not triumphant, as he was in GoF. I'm gonna borrow a quote from X-Files here "A lie is most convincingly hidden between two truths." Dumbledore did not answer the question but explained other things to Harry and left Harry to draw his own conclusions, conclusions that Voldemort accepted at face value because they concern a brand of magic that he underestimates and therefore, hasn't taken the time to truly understand.

[purplehawk]

Dumbledore said "we can only guess" right after it happened. It was nearly twelve years later when he spoke to Harry in the hospital wing and said it was Lily's sacrifice that had done the trick. When Harry told Riddle that a year later, Riddle observed that, yes, it was a "powerful counter-charm." As Voldemort in GoF, at his rebirthing party, he explained it to the Death Eaters in the cemetery scene, describing it as old magic he "should have remembered."

I believe Lily's actions deflected Voldemort's killing curse and caused it to rebound and hit its originator. As for the destruction of the house, I stick by my contention that Wormtail did it - at least until we have evidence to the contrary. It just makes sense.

[jordmundt6]

Strange--I know I typed this long post--looks like you ignored it. No. Dumbledore did not say Lily's sacrifice did the trick. He said Lily's sacrifice was the reason that Voldemort/Quirrel couldn't touch him and Harry ASSUMED that was what had saved him originally. And Voldemort, and Riddle, accepted this information without question because Voldemort underestimates (probably should read this as "has no respect for") this type of ancient magic.

[purplehawk]

I didn't miss it, jordmundt. Harry did ask, at the end of SS/PS, why Quirrell couldn't touch him. Dumbledore responded "Your mother died to save you." It does not seem much of a stretch to assume Harry and the rest of the free world would interpret the words "your-mother-died-to-save-you" as the reason he survived, not just the reason Quirrell couldn't touch him.

Small wonder Riddle accepted it without question. And Voldemort, in the cemetery, acknowledged it as well. We have to lend some credence to his story because, after all, he was there and saw that curse coming right back at him. Not to mention the fact he'd had thirteen years to brood on what happened that night.

[jordmundt6]

But if this were really it Dumbledore's reactions to the news that it has been finally and totally circumvented are offf. Riddle has brainblocks on most ancient magic and accepts it at face value because it comports with what he remembers. Voldemort got reports on everything Harry did and the prevailing theories from Peter when Peter scampered to Albania. He has not outgrown his childhood failings and still accepts them at face value. But it's important to note that Dumbledore did not answer the question directly--really because Harry didn't ask it. Harry asked why Quirrel couldn't touch him and Dumbledore answered him. Dumbledore's answer isn't a lie, but it is ambiguous. His answer could mean that "Your mother's sacrifice saved you from Voldemort" or "Your mother sacrificed herself in order to save you" which means "in an effort to save you." The further we get into the series, the more I think the alternate reading is the more accurate one.

[purplehawk]

Okay. We'll see, in time, how it pans out.

[jordmundt6]

I double-checked the texts. Her sacrifice gave Harry something Voldemort never expected "linegering protection" (what Quirrel had fallen victim to). Voldemort tends to gloss over the most fundamental and ancient parts of White Magic so yes his "I should have remembered" rings true. But the way countercurses and countercharms work is they block the attack leaving the person being protected unharmed and reflect it back in another direction. But when those things fail (the Shield shatters) the curse hits and has its effect. Voldemort's AK actually hit Harry, but it had been slowed down enough that it marked him and then something, we have no idea what, reflected the power of the AK (not the AK itself, but the power behind it) back at Voldemort. Voldemort was ripped from his body and the house was totaled. As for Pettigrew's destroying the evidence--he just doesn't have that kind of power. Not a knock on him really, Voldemort doesn't have that kind of power either. Whatever was unleashed was more powerful than anything we've seen from anyone thus far. Lily and James were both dead and the Charm had failed to block the curse, the remenants of the charm survived in Harry's skin providing him the protection he would rely on in SS, but they couldn't deflect the curse. Harry's the only one left in the room. It had to be something he instinctively did (instinct was all he had as an infant), but what it was or how it worked we probably won't find out until Book 7 when we see something of an encore performance.

[purplehawk]

I double-checked the texts. Her sacrifice gave Harry something Voldemort never expected "linegering protection" (what Quirrel had fallen victim to). Voldemort tends to gloss over the most fundamental and ancient parts of White Magic so yes his "I should have remembered" rings true.

"His mother left upon him the traces of her sacrifice... I could not touch the boy!"

So why, exactly, was Voldemort trying to "touch the boy" in the first place? If Lily was already dead, why was he attempting to touch Harry at all? Did he have plans of seizing Harry and carrying him away? And then, unable to do so, he decided to level the Avada Kadavra at baby Harry? Voldemart's own words describe what happened at that point:

"I miscalculated, my friends. I admit it. My curse was deflected by the woman's foolish sacrifice and it rebounded upon myself... Ahh... pain beyond pain, my friends... nothing could have prepared me for it. I was ripped from my body... I was less than spirit, less than the meanest ghost... but still I was alive. What I was even I do not know... "

But the way countercurses and countercharms work is they block the attack leaving the person being protected unharmed and reflect it back in another direction. But when those things fail (the Shield shatters) the curse hits and has its effect. Voldemort's AK actually hit Harry, but it had been slowed down enough that it marked him and then something, we have no idea what, reflected the power of the AK (not the AK itself, but the power behind it) back at Voldemort. Voldemort was ripped from his body and the house was totaled.

I'm sorry. I just don't buy that interpretation, especially not in light of Voldemort's words above. It appears Lily was already dead when he tried to touch and/or curse Harry and the protection of her counter-charm is what caused the Avada Kadavra to glance off Harry's forehead and blast Voldemort.

As for Pettigrew's destroying the evidence--he just doesn't have that kind of power. Not a knock on him really, Voldemort doesn't have that kind of power either.

Then how did Pettigrew blow up the street and kill 13 people one day later?

"... He cut it off himself?"

"Just before he transformed... When I cornered him, he yelled for the whole street to hear that I'd betrayed Lily and James. Then, before I could curse him, he blew apart the street with the wand behind his back, killed everyone within twenty feet of himself - and sped down into the sewer with the other rats... "

The spell that blew up the entire street sounds powerful enough to have leveled the Potter house.

Whatever was unleashed was more powerful than anything we've seen from anyone thus far. Lily and James were both dead and the Charm had failed to block the curse, the remenants of the charm survived in Harry's skin providing him the protection he would rely on in SS, but they couldn't deflect the curse. Harry's the only one left in the room. It had to be something he instinctively did (instinct was all he had as an infant), but what it was or how it worked we probably won't find out until Book 7 when we see something of an encore performance.

The traces of Lily's sacrifice didn't sit dormant for ten years, only to awaken in SS, jordmundt. They were there in full effect the night of the attack on the Potters. Lily's counter-charm made Harry untouchable, so Voldemort could not seize him. Lily's charm deflected Voldemort's killing curse and blasted it right back into Voldemort's face, unleashing something more powerful than Voldemort had counted on - which, I believe, were the mingling of the two types of magic in force that evening. There is nothing yet written that would dispute it was Lily's ancient magic and the dark magic of Voldemort's Avada Kadavra.

[jordmundt6]

Yikes! I'm not saying that the traces (notice they're traces, it's not the full countercharm) were dormant for 10 years. They weren't TESTED for 10 years. Voldemort is speaking rather grandly here, forgetting that he couldn't touch anything after the curse (or its power) rebounded at him. He couldn't touch anything. He had no physical form. Maybe he tried to possess Harry and found the shards of Lily's love too painful to pass through. But notice something. All this explanation that we're getting is Voldemort summing up from things that he got third-hand. This isn't anything that he is aware of when he and Harry meet in front of the Mirror of Erised. He didn't know to warn Quirrel not to touch Harry, it was a surprise. That was the lingering protection he hadn't counted on. He had no clue what actually caused the bounce-back on the curse either, attributing it to Harry. That tremendous explanation that he gives, bestowing all the credit on Lily's sacrifice--that's something he got from Pettigrew. Pettigrew told him all about Harry and all about what Harry had said to the shade of Tom Riddle. Pettigrew and Voldemort figured that Harry had gotten this explanation straight from Dumbledore, when, in fact, it was really Harry's hypothesis based on Dumbledore's answers to different, but related questions. We've never heard this explanation from Dumbledore, and we probably never will, because it simply ISN'T TRUE. If Lily's countercharm had succeeded the AK would have been reflected back at Voldemort leaving Harry unmarked and there wouldn't have been any damage to the house, just a dead, or a ripped-from-body Voldemort. Pettigrew and Voldemort are basically taking Harry's word for what happened and filling in the details to fit that story. Plus, nobody ever said Voldemort feels bound to the truth. It was very important that his DEs believe that Harry was not his foil, but a clumsy powerless child who'd gotten lucky because of an unforseen but powerful occurrence. Giving Harry any credit at that stage would have been a severe blow to the DEs confidence in their leader.

Edit: Also, the timeline on the actual sequence of events in Godric's Hollow is fairly clear, at least up to the confrontation between infant Harry and Voldemort. Voldemort, on Pettigrew's information, showed up at the Potters' house in Godric's Hollow (a neighborhood or historical location, not an estate; comparable to Little Hangleton, not the Riddle House). James realized what was going on. He told his wife to run for it and then went into the adjoining room to face Voldemort. Voldemort crushed him. Lily had nowhere to run and no time to run even if she'd known where she was going. She pleaded for Harry's life and ordered to stand aside, she wouldn't. Voldemort killed her. He laughed and shot a last AK at Harry (forgetting that there might even be consequences to permitting a maternal self-sacrifice). He had just enough time to register the curse cutting into Harry's forehead--CUTTING?---before it backfired and the power behind it ripped him from his body, causing him pain beyond anything imaginable, and totaled the house. He didn't try to grab Harry, if he had and had felt the burn of the countercharm, he may have tried an alternative means of murder, but he definitely would not have been surprised, as he diefinitely was, when Quirrel could not touch Harry.

[purplehawk]

You know, we're just at loggerheads. I'm not inclined to continue in this vein. I should explain that theories and unverifiable opinion are not my strong suit... meaning if I can't find a basis for it in the books, then I'm not going to believe it. Not saying you're wrong... I just can't find anything to support what you are saying. Indeed, the evidence - if the texts can be construed as evidential - supports a contrary opinion.

[jordmundt6]

Mine are based on the texts. If Voldemort really knew all the stuff that he claimed in his grand explanation when he and Harry met in the Chamber with the Mirror of Erised, he would have harped on Harry's mother, not Harry. He would have warned Quirrel before the struggle began "don't touch him you fool!" That didn't happen. And she needn't have died woudl have been replace by "she needn't have died, but it's only because she did that you survived." Everything that Voldemort said in GoF is really parrotting what Riddle's shade said, based on knowledge that's been acquired SINCE the second confrontation. What's Voldemort's only reliable source of information before the DEs are reunited? Pettigrew. Where did Pettigrew get his information? Harry. The theory Voldemort worked on is based on an assumption HARRY made. It's understandable, but it's unverified.

[sindatur]

For those who don't accept that Lily's Charm/sacrifice reflected Voldemort's AK, because it left HArry marked. Here's another view to consider.

The Scar on HArry's forehead has lately been theorized as being the Rune Sowelu (Solewu?) which basically represents Power of light, good, strength, etc. Let's call what Lily did "The Ritual of Sowelu" (just to give it a name).

Lily did her thing and evoked the Rune through this Ancient "Ritual of Sowelu", putting that power within Harry. Voldemort made his choice to get rid of "the One", and chose to kill Harry with his AK.

Voldemort shot his AK, it hit HArry, the Rune evoked itself, (activated it's power) in reaction to the power of the AK, and deflected the AK back out of HArry's body, leaving the image of the Rune burned into Harry's forehead, showing exactly why Harry survived.

Since we have been theorizing so much about the Rune's this is more where my mind is personally leaning.

[purplehawk]

Hi, Sindatur! I've been reading the whole rune theory and I have to admit it's fascinating. When explained as you've just done, it really is compelling. What I'm not getting (yet) is how this "Ritual of Sowelu" fits in with the counter-charm Dumbledore speaks of - the one of Lily giving up her life so that Harry might live. Until that can be worked out, I'm on the fence about the runes.

[jordmundt6]

If that were the case, how could there be a link to the curse that failed? The scar seems to be caused by the curse itself. It looks like Lily came closer than anyone before her but still failed. Remember for this to work, Voldemort has to mark Harry. If the scar is Lily's doing, then the fate of the world is in the well-meaining but clumsy hands of Neville Longbottom.

[sindatur]

PurpleHawk, the last part for Lily to do of the "ritual" would be Lily sacrificing her life for love of Harry.

Jormundt, if I set cans up on a fence, and you throw a rock and knock them down, isn't it you who knocked them down, not me? Lily set the stage, the power of Voldemort's AK activated it (theoretically that is. ;) )

[jordmundt6]

It's just that that takes away from the idea that Voldemort chose him, marked him as his equal. Furthermore, how exactly would the Rune thing forge a connection between AK-er and protected party and siphon off the attackers powers? This sounds like a move Lily would try, but I think, as I've said in other places, that whatever she tried, she'd try for total and complete protection for her son at all costs to herself. The way this hypothetical Charm would work, that would be impossible, she wouldn't even be working towards it.

[purplehawk]

I have goosebumps all over! Sindatur, can you explain in more detail how you see this ritual and sacrifice unfolding?

[sindatur]

Hi PurpleHawk,

First let me say I have no knowledge of actual real life Wicca or Pagan/Druid history, so my views are formed from various different Wicca and other magical Fantasy stories. What I have come to understand of Protection Spells is they are very complicated, multi-step processes, it is not a simple wave of a wand, I get the feeling the same is true In HP's world.

Voldemort gets into the house, James duels with him and tells Lily to grab Harry and get out. Lily takes another approach. Lily does her thing with drawing Runes (here, there, whereever), does her incantations, wand waves, etc (probably a combination of all these things). People have wondered where Lily's wand went to, why didn't she put up a struggle? Part of her ritual would be to leave the wand in the crib with Harry, as a conduit for the completion of the ritual. Voldemort has now finished killing James, and comes in to the room Lily is in, and tells her to step aside, she doesn't need to die. But in reality, she knew there was no escape for her or James this night, and she has been preparing for this since James told her to leave. She refuses, and allows Voldemort to do what she knew he would do, kill her because she was standing in the way of Voldemort getting to Harry. This sacrifice finished the setup for the Protection spell {Problem with this theory, setup wouldn't have been finished if Voldemort had not offered her, her life}. Once Voldemort had finished with Lily, he turned on Harry and performed AK {Problem with this part of the theory, the power of the AK was needed to activate the protection. If Voldemort had merely strangled Harry, there is no power to ignite the protection}. Having performed the AK on HArry, the Protection kicks in, AK is repelled, leaving Harry scarred with the Sowelu Rune where the power erupted from Harry's body. The sheer destructive force of this interaction between the two forces, exploded the immortal Voldemort's body, and wreaked havoc on the house, collapsing it. If Harry is Sowelu Rune, Voldemort is the dark opposite of it Eiwahz (or Ewahz?). This also addresses all the theories of Harry never actually Offensively has attacked Voldemort, but rather has turned his dark power against him by making it light. Also explains the Priori Incantatem.
(I also don't have an explanation for why she knew she would be offered the chance to be a sacrifice, by getting an offer from Voldemort to be allowed to live)

[jordmundt6]

Shouldn't we have heard some of this since she's five inches from Harry's head during most of this complex maneuvering and charming? Plus, this takes a whole lot more time than the 30 seconds or so between James running from the room and Voldemort striding in. Maybe they found out Pettigrew betrayed them hours ahead of time (that doesn't make sense since Voldemort would have left for Godric's Hollow as soon as he heard the information). Also, this is a question from another thread, but perhaps something needs to be clarified. Lily & James didn't take Fidelius precautions until AFTER they got the heads-up that Voldemort had chosen them (and Harry) as his target. It wasn't a case of two protected families and the Potters were accessible first. Voldemort chose Harry, it got back to Dumbledore and they took precautions accordingly.

[sindatur]

Hi Jormundt,

This tennis match we're having is great fun, I hope my retorts to you are not irritating and you're enjoying this as much as I am.

To anyone else, we seem to have gone off on what some may see as an "off topic" tangent, anyone who doesn't appreciate it, by all means speak up. Anyone who wants to chime in on either side of the debate, please feel free.

I don't think that Voldemort burst in and killed James instantly. I believe there was an actual duel. James was a Marauder, very resourceful, Harry got his resourcefulness from somewhere. He would've done things like Dumbledore did in the MoM duel, hiding behind things, throwing things in the way of Voldemort's curses to block them etc. I think 30 seconds is cutting it very short. Probably at least 3 or 4 minutes is more realistic, or possibly longer. Baby Harry was still in his crib, and prior to the Dementor experiences, Harry only remembered the green flash. Lily was incredible with charms, so she wouldn't have shown fear to spark a memory in Harry, she would have been very focused and determined, so it's not unrealistic to believe Harry wouldn't recall events prior to Voldemort entering the room, plus the walls of the crib could very possibly have blocked alot of it from Harry's vision.

I agree because of the Fedelius Charm protection, very little, if any of this would have been done prior to Voldemort's arrival in the house (if there was no forewarning). But I think several minutes could very possibly have been enough time for someone who knew exactly what she was doing, and that she needed to do it quickly.

Since reading OotP, I've had the impression that both the Longbottoms and the Potters would've been hiding with a Fedlius charm. What makes you believe that the Fedlius charm was only used for the Potters after they knew for a fact that Voldemort had chosen Harry? If this is true, than I think Lily would've put some additional protections on the crib and/or Harry before Voldemort even arrived, meaning she only needed to expand on what she had already done, once she knew there would be no escape for her and James. So forewarning I believe would work in favor of this theory, rather than against it.

I understand Snape probably (do we know for a fact or just assume) gave a heads up that Voldemort was coming after the boys, but did he know it was specifically Harry that had been chosen, or just that Voldemort knew about the Prophecy indicating he had two choices (IE: Harry or Neville)?

[purplehawk]

I've always been under the impression Dumbledore notified both families soon after he heard the prophecy directly from Sybill's lips. Fudge tells us:

"Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful spies. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advised them to go into hiding. Well, of course, You-Know-Who wasn't an easy person to hide from. Dumbledore told them that their best chance was the Fidelius Charm."

I'm not sure I buy this. Fudge has never mentioned any knowledge of the prophecy. On the same token, I don't believe Dumbledore would ever have been so glib with him about the desperation of the Potters' situation. It isn't like Dumbledore to have said so much. Shoot, the mere fact Fudge was blabbing it about in a bar should tell us that much.

Given Fudge's amazing capacity for self-delusion, I wouldn't bet the barn on his word.

Sindatur, that's the best description of the Sowelu bit I've ever read. Thanks so much for taking the time to post it.

[jordmundt6]

Sindatur--good post.

Okay, here goes. Why do I think only the Potters were using the Fidelius Charm? Because we've heard exactly when they performed it and exactly why. Dumbledore had several spies in the DEs. One of them informed him that Voldemort had chosen the Potters (Harry) as the next victim(s). He called them into his office or arranged a meeting and explained everything to them. He told them their best chance of survival was the Fidelius Charm and offered to be their Secret-Keeper. They went another route. It is significant that the
Fidelius Charm is not a direct result of the Prophecy--I should probably explain that wording, huh?

The Fidelius Charm was not instituted as a security measure after the Prophecy occurred. The Fidelius Charm was in place for just over a week, 9 days max before Voldemort appeared, killed Lily and James and got squashed by the power of his own AK when he tried to kill Harry. Had the Fidelius Charm been a safety measure that Dumbledore MANDATED after the Prophecy, both of them would have been in place for over a year. The Fidelius Charm was a reaction to hearing that Voldemort had chosen Harry as his next victim. Voldemort's choice had nothing to do with the availability of Harry over Neville, he chose Harry over Neville (after over a year of wracking his brains) and only after the decision was made was the protection instituted. Wormtail did not become a true factor until after the choice was made (unless his first mission as a spy was overhearing that half-prophecy).

Now as to that night. Harry's Dementor-induced memory is very detailed. The Potters were taken by surprise. "It's HIM..Run! Take Harry and go. I'll try to hold him off" Then James stumbled from the room. There is no indication. A few noises and the door bursts open. And there's Voldemort. There's no indication of a time lapse longer than less than a minute, or of Harry falling asleep. I concede that James is excellent and resourceful and died facing his enemy. I just think he was simply overmatched. What few noises there were indicate more than one spell. Lily didn't have time to do a complicated Rune spell during that "duel" so she either had to prepare it befoerhand (Why would she do it? Did she suspect Peter?--If so, why were she and James so surprised and panicked when Voldy showed up) and just put the finishing touches on it with her sacrifice. There are a couple of elements necessary for this to work that just aren't present in the timeline.

Edit: Hawk--If that were the case, why in blue blazes did the Potters wait over a year to do the Fidelius Charm? Had they been informed, instructed immediately, I think they would have gone through with it. Dumbledore only had the conference AFTER he had confirmation (from Severus?) that the Potters, or rather Harry and anyone who tried to protect him, were next on Voldemort's list. That's why the Fidelius Charm was only a little over a week old when it was compromised.

[purplehawk]

The Fidelius Charm was not instituted as a security measure after the Prophecy occurred. The Fidelius Charm was in place for just over a week, 9 days max before Voldemort appeared, killed Lily and James and got squashed by the power of his own AK when he tried to kill Harry. Had the Fidelius Charm been a safety measure that Dumbledore MANDATED after the Prophecy, both of them would have been in place for over a year. The Fidelius Charm was a reaction to hearing that Voldemort had chosen Harry as his next victim. Voldemort's choice had nothing to do with the availability of Harry over Neville, he chose Harry over Neville (after over a year of wracking his brains) and only after the decision was made was the protection instituted. Wormtail did not become a true factor until after the choice was made (unless his first mission as a spy was overhearing that half-prophecy).

I'm not so sure. That theory is relying on Fudge's word and I've already said I don't trust Fudge's accuracy on very much of anything. I've just ferreted out another quote I'd like to share:

"Harry... I as good as killed them," he croaked. "I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret-Keeper instead of me... The night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didn't feel right. I was scared. I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies... I realized what Peter must have done... what I'd done... "

Sirius appears to be saying he had indeed been secret-keeper for Lily and James, but persuaded them to switch to Worm at the last moment. He said he himself was planning to go into hiding - because the pursuit was by then too hot, perhaps? - and "Voldemort would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you." It is important to note Wormtail was also in hiding at that time.

Having made the switch in Secret-Keeper, Sirius was on his way into hiding. He'd arranged a last check on Peter to make sure he was "still safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. Yet there was no sign of a struggle. It didn't feel right. I was scared. I set our for your parents' house staright away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies... I realized what Peter must've done... what I'd done... "

And into all this must come a word about Dumbledore. I can't believe he didn't urge both the Longbottoms and the Potters into hiding immediately after he heard Sibyll's prophecy. I mean, that's a no-brainer. It doesn't mean he told Fudge, of course, but I'd bet my last dollar, based on this information, the Potters had been in hiding with Sirius as their secret-keeper for over a year before Voldemort found them, compliments of Peter Pettigrew.

[jordmundt6]

I get the impression from that quote more that they were on they were hours away from casting the Fidelius Charm and Sirius said--"Hold up a second. I just got a BRILLIANT IDEA." Part of that same quote sequence supports me here. "Voldemort would be sure to come after me. He'd never suspect they'd use a weak talentless thing like YOU." This means the Charm hadn't been performed yet. They set it up, but they didn't go through with it. They changed the plan at Sirius's suggestion.

[sindatur]

Jormundt, thanks for illuminating why you believe the sequence of events follows your timeline, I'll keep that in mind as I read in future. I'm not convinced of everything you believe, but, my is open to examine it. To be honest, I actually hope I am way off base, because, I really enjoy JKR slapping me in the head with a twist, like Snape wasn't the bad guy in SS/PS afterall, or Scabbers was responsible for Lily and James' deaths.

I am however still leaning the same direction with regards to my theory containing some truth in it (maybe not arranged exactly right, but at least in the ballpark)

Thanks for the quotes PurpleHawk.

[purplehawk]

I get the impression from that quote more that they were on they were hours away from casting the Fidelius Charm and Sirius said--"Hold up a second. I just got a BRILLIANT IDEA." Part of that same quote sequence supports me here. "Voldemort would be sure to come after me. He'd never suspect they'd use a weak talentless thing like YOU." This means the Charm hadn't been performed yet. They set it up, but they didn't go through with it. They changed the plan at Sirius's suggestion.

There is some confusion, but then I recalled Dumbledore's words as he sent the kids off with the time turner: "I myself gave testimony to the Ministry that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret-Keeper." Lupin also "knew" it was Sirius, not to mention that idiot Fudge, so it must have been widely-known among their intimates. Fudge claims it was "barely a week" after the Fidelius Charm was performed that the betrayal occurred, but he also went on to bluster about how Sirius was "tired of his double-agent's role" blah blah blah...

[Sabine]

I have to admit I didn't read all the new post thorougly...

I like the way sindatur brings the runes into play.

Yes - all that we know by now is, that the AK leaves the body with no signs/marks/wounds or whatsoever.

What if Lily didn't mean to block the AK that was sure to be fired on Harry, but - including the description of sindatur - used ancient magic and the solewu-rune not to hold that AK off of Harry but to "change" the AK?

It seems to me, that even some backfired AK couldn't have that consequence on Voldemort? After all he took precautions to be immortal? voldemort never saw coming what that night had in store for him. So why isn't it possible that Lily all the way planed to change that AK not to block it?

Sabine

[jordmundt6]

Okay, in order

Hawk--Observant, but I have a feeling that what Dumbledore testified to was this:

He had a conference with them when he learned they were in danger. He suggested the Fidelius Charm. He offered himself as Secret-Keeper. James nixed that and insisted on Sirius. Lily backed him. They left. The charm was performed. A little over a week later James and Lily were killed by Voldemort and Harry survived the attack.

A to B to C to D. Conference to Decision to Charm to Attack. If James decided on Sirius, the Charm was performed and the Potters ended up dead, Sirius had to be the one to betray them. He had to be the double-agent that Dumbledore had sensed but couldn't identify.

That's "evidence that Sirius had been the Potters' Secret-Keeper."

On Why the Potters didn't tell Dumbledore about the plan-change--They had to make certain Voldemort would take the bait. If Dumbledore had known they had switched, even assuming Peter to be loyal, Dumbledore could have unintentionally tipped their hand by setting up extra protection around Peter.


Sabine--This is tough to swallow because she's gambling with her kid's life to save him. Also, this plan requires a lot more preparation and spellwork than can occur in the 30 seconds to two minutes (or less) between James hurrying from the room (to his death) and Voldemort striding in. Plus, wouldn't she have told James about it, so his advice wouldn't have been "Run." It would have been "If I don't make it, make sure everything's ready." Or something to that effect.

[purplehawk]

Who performed the Fidelius Charm, though? I need to go hunt that down, unless someone else knows the answer. I was under the impression Dumbledore had done it himself, just as he did at Grimmaud Place.

[sindatur]

PurpleHawk, That's a very good question. Dumbledore couldn't have done it because then he would've known who the Secret Keeper was, nor could anyone else we know who was alive during PoA. That leaves Lily and James (can you perform your own Fedlius Charm?) or someone we don't know. Or is it the Sevret Keeper himself who performs it?

Sabine, nice thought with changing the darkness of Voldemort's AK, that helps plug up some holes, and fits more into the Harry is light and Voldemort is dark, and Harry has won/survived every encounter by turning Voldemort's darkness into light, rather than being offensive, thanks.

Jormundt, I see where you're coming from on the gamble, but, I look at it a bit different. Let's take a situation with a Muggle. You're on the 2nd floor, and a bomb is ticking away, there are 3 seconds left on it, no prayer to get out of the house, and there is a crowd of people outside the house. Your only hope of saving your baby (or wife, girlfriend, brother, sister, beloved pet, if you don't have children) is to throw him/her out the window and hope someone will catch him/her. At best the odds are 50/50 the baby will survive. Would you allow the baby to be blown up and 100% chance of not surviving, or would you take the gamble and have a 50% chance of the baby surviving?
(Sorry about the awful nature of that thought, just making a point)
In addition to the love parents have for their child, Lily and James knew that Harry may be the only hope for Wizarding world (and the Muggle world as well), Harry had to survive, or life wouldn't be worth living for anyone.

Grindelwald, I believe we are supposed to assume is connected to Hitler (either he was Hitler, worked with or used Hitler). That was less than 100 years ago. Voldemort is/was the most evil, powerful Wizard in the last Century, that means Voldemort is more evil than Hitler and those around him. For the love of your child, and for the hope of the entire world, isn't a gamble that gives 50% (or even 30% or less) chance of suvival, better than 100% chance of no survival? Voldemort was there to kill Harry, plain and simple. A gamble is better than allowing it to happen, IMHO.

[Sabine]

Sabine--This is tough to swallow because she's gambling with her kid's life to save him. Also, this plan requires a lot more preparation and spellwork than can occur in the 30 seconds to two minutes (or less) between James hurrying from the room (to his death) and Voldemort striding in. Plus, wouldn't she have told James about it, so his advice wouldn't have been "Run." It would have been "If I don't make it, make sure everything's ready." Or something to that effect.

If Sindatur is right in assuming the direction your "gambling" is going then he/she did some good explaining.

As for the time it took Lily: Why would to change the AK take more time than to cause the AK to backfire? I clearly don't see that point.

It is my believe that Lilys action in that night wasn't some last-second-quick-thinking but well-considered, planed in advance action. Sort of some worst-case-scenario that she prepared.

After all, with this prophecy floating over her babys head she wouldn't just sit down on the sofa and waiting for things to happen.

As for the Fidelius-charm: I don't know and I'm quite sure there is nothing in the books that describes how it works. I tend to think that the secret-keeper performs it. f.e. Dumbledore performed that one for the headquarters.

Sabine

[sindatur]

Hi Sabine,

Sindatur is a he, I haven't been able to figure out how to edit my profile, I also want to change my favorite book, I guess it defaulted to SS/PS.

I don't believe Jormundt, was indicating it took longer to change the AK than it would to backfire it. His argument is that he believes James only had about 30 seconds (and he seems to be conceding to a possibility of up to 2 minutes) worth of Dueling with Voldemort, giving Lily less than 2 minutes to do whatever she did. I believe James must have lasted at least 3-4 minutes, the Marauders were far too resourceful, for James to have been taken out that quickly, IMHO. With Lily being so good with Charms, being a loving mother etc, she could've done a lot in that period of time. And I agree with you, I don't believe they were all sitting around watching TV and sipping cocoa relying 100% on the Fedelius Charm, being 100% confident of their safety from the Charm, other failsafes most likely were setup

[Jill]

Love your interpretation Sabine and sindatur (love your explination of the rune and how it might have worked) about how the runes played a part in changing the AK curse somehow. It could have been similar to what happened when Harry and Voldermorts wands clashed, except in this case the connection was not lost and ran its full course.

In essence what Voldermort was trying to do was reverse Harrys rune stone sign perhaps that night when he cast the AK. You can not reverse this rune stone so perhaps that also trigger of the protection that Lily provided with her life. Instead it forced the slightly altered or more diminished form of the AK curse back at Voldermort just as Harry was alble to force the silver threads comming from his wand in GoF back to Voldermort wand.

I also think your right about Lily realising that there was no point in running too. James would have put up a fight though outside, if James was there.

[jordmundt6]

"If James was there?" We KNOW James was there and that he did put up a fight but was overmatched. We don't know that Lily decided it was pointless to run, it was more like she didn't have time to do anything and was caught between actions. She did all she could do as a mother and her efforts provided Harry with lasting protection he would rely on years later, but it was ultimately insufficient to block the AK. The type of complex enchantment (even more complex by about half than the Fidelius charm) would have taken way too long to prepare given the timeline we have. Everyone wants to confirm that Harry is the one in the prophecy but, at the same time, strip him of all the credit for his various escapes from Voldemort, most importantly, his first one. Why?

Sindatur--This is more than a desperate toss out of a third story window, intentionally provoking an AK is like loading a six-shooter with five bullets and a blank and leaving it for your worst enemy to find, knowing that he'll only get one shot, and hoping against hope that he'll fire the blank instead of a real bullet. It's Russian Roulette. 50/50 chance is astronomically optimistic. No one had ever survived a direct AK before (which she knew she and Harry would be facing) and she deliberately provoked that because she was SURE her experimental charm would keep her son safe (or was his best shot anyway)? That sounds like a Sirius plan, not a Lily plan.

On the Marauders vs. Voldemort. James is talented and resourceful, but the key to his survival before has always been hit and run when it comes to Voldemort. He's nowhere near powerful enough to match him for three minutes in a one-on-one duel. Voldemort pushes Dumbledore to his limit. Dumbledore is clearly superior when pushed there, but one false move could mean his doom and James just doesn't have that kind of power to draw upon. He just doesn't. I think you might be either overestimating James' strength in comparison to Voldemort because of Sirius' fight with Bella or underestimating Voldemort because, when push came to shove, Dumbledore outclassed old Tom.

[GryffindorSeeker]

"If James was there?" We KNOW James was there and that he did put up a fight but was overmatched. We don't know that Lily decided it was pointless to run, it was more like she didn't have time to do anything and was caught between actions. She did all she could do as a mother and her efforts provided Harry with lasting protection he would rely on years later, but it was ultimately insufficient to block the AK. The type of complex enchantment (even more complex by about half than the Fidelius charm) would have taken way too long to prepare given the timeline we have. Everyone wants to confirm that Harry is the one in the prophecy but, at the same time, strip him of all the credit for his various escapes from Voldemort, most importantly, his first one. Why?


I think it was rather as Dumbledore said, it was her love for Harry that saved Harry, but I don't think that her love for her son was able to save her also. She was dying for her son, so she had to die... I think.

[jordmundt6]

I'm not so sold on that. When protections break down and leave fragments of spells, the curse that breaks through usually has full effect (Hermione testing those new jnxes without learning the counterjinx first and breaking Harry's Shield Charm in GoF). I'd say rather that Lily's love for Harry gave Harry the chance to save himself.

[NYCwitch920]

I think that they needed to take the safest and longest route to the Dursley's home. I'm sure that Harry was in either Hagrid's or Dumbledore's care before the decision was made. They probably kept him in a safe area and then decided to send him to his aunt's home.

[seeker]

I don't think it is so farfetched to say that Lily may have allowed Harry to be "marked as an equal," knowing of a protection that would save her. Here are some reasons:
1. Voldemort admitted to Harry in PS/SS that James put up a couragous fight. Although I don't believe he would have ultimately been much of a match for Voldemort, why would Voldemort praise an opponent who had been immediately defeated? If anything, he would want to gloat. If this is the case, then why couldn't Lily get out of the house in time? Even if Harry was in another room, it seems odd that a witch in such a dangerous position wouldn't have some sort of escape plan.
2. Why would anyone, much less tow order members, reject Dumbeldore as their secret keeper? Isn't he the safest person, being that voldemort fears him? I see DD's offer to be SK as a front. All three of them knew that Harry had to be marked, but it couldn't look suspicious. My thinking is that DD knew that Harry, not Neville, would be the better choice to serve as savior of wizardkind, and needed Harry to be marked.
In my scenario, maybe DD and the Potters worked out a safe way for the marking to take place, but, because of all the counterspying and spying going on, Voldemort was one step ahead. When Voldemort came, James panicked because he was ther too soon - DD's plan, whatever it was, had failed. Lily then needed to go to plan B-involving her sacrifice.
Yes, I know this would mean that DD knew of Sirius's innocence, but that could be explained in many ways, one of which is that he genuinely believed Sirius had killed all the muggles thus did not save him from the imprisonment that such a crime would have warranted.

[jordmundt6]

Several reasons to praise James even if he defeated him immediately (that time).

1. James is an old-school pureblood, so by heritage he is the epitome of what Voldemort wishes he was.

2. James looked death in the eye and went down fighting without flinching (Voldemort valued bravery because it was useful, remember?)

3. This one is a bit of a stretch, so bear with me. James did the one thing that, had Voldemort ever thought about it, he wished his own father would do. Stand by his wife and son and defend them, no matter what the cost.

[Sabine]

Everyone wants to confirm that Harry is the one in the prophecy but, at the same time, strip him of all the credit for his various escapes from Voldemort, most importantly, his first one. Why?

Being the one the prophecy speaks of does not necessarily mean it is fully his own doing when he escaped Voldemort the first time. If that power was the only thing responsible for Harry to live, than its due to the power and not to Harry. Since no one knows what that power is every thought is like "guessing around in the dark".

Giving Harry the full credit of his survival would mean that Lily died in fact in vain!

I think that Harrys survival is in fact an interaction of more things. Harry was born with the power, but maybe Lily's action , in putting "that rune" on him f.i., and than sacrificing her life for Harry triggered that power in Harry an made it sort of "wake up".

Harry is by no means any Superman - thanks to JKR for that - he truly is clever, but you have to admit that Harry had every help he could get. In SS/PS he wouldn't have made it to that mirror if Hermione and Ron hadn't helped.

What would have happend to Harry if fawkes hadn't shown up in CoS?

He needed at least Hermione to help Sirius to escape in PoA.

GoF - do I have to say that Harry only reached the portkey because he had a lot of "help" from Fake-Moody? And he sure had some help at that graveyard.

Maybe this is part of Harry's power - to unite people in the fight against Voldemort. Shouldn't every one who dislikes the reign of Voldemort stand up and fight together rather than say "You are the one with the power - so go on and do the "dirty work" for us!"

What is so wrong about admiting that Harry gets every help he needs? Harry sure is the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord, but where does it state that he has to do every bit on that way ALONE? Its one of the reasons I love those books so much... Harry is some ordinary boy and not some Superman with some unnatural powers who comes all alone and saves the world all by himself. Being the one with the power is hard enough. And Harry sure gets all the credits he deserves.


No one had ever survived a direct AK before (which she knew she and Harry would be facing) and she deliberately provoked that because she was SURE her experimental charm would keep her son safe (or was his best shot anyway)? That sounds like a Sirius plan, not a Lily plan.

I think we don't know enough about a Lily to decide if it was a Lily plan or a someone elses plan.

On the Marauders vs. Voldemort. James is talented and resourceful, but the key to his survival before has always been hit and run when it comes to Voldemort. He's nowhere near powerful enough to match him for three minutes in a one-on-one duel. Voldemort pushes Dumbledore to his limit. Dumbledore is clearly superior when pushed there, but one false move could mean his doom and James just doesn't have that kind of power to draw upon. He just doesn't. I think you might be either overestimating James' strength in comparison to Voldemort because of Sirius' fight with Bella or underestimating Voldemort because, when push came to shove, Dumbledore outclassed old Tom.

So do you think Harry has so much more strength than James had?

2. Why would anyone, much less tow order members, reject Dumbeldore as their secret keeper? Isn't he the safest person, being that voldemort fears him? I see DD's offer to be SK as a front.

Thats a thing that I am asking myself constantly. Why would the rather have Sirius/Peter than Dumbledore as a secret keeper??? There must be some real good reason for that - I can't think of one :no:


All three of them knew that Harry had to be marked, but it couldn't look suspicious. My thinking is that DD knew that Harry, not Neville, would be the better choice to serve as savior of wizardkind, and needed Harry to be marked.
In my scenario, maybe DD and the Potters worked out a safe way for the marking to take place, but, because of all the counterspying and spying going on, Voldemort was one step ahead. When Voldemort came, James panicked because he was ther too soon - DD's plan, whatever it was, had failed. Lily then needed to go to plan B-involving her sacrifice.

Yes, I know this would mean that DD knew of Sirius's innocence, but that could be explained in many ways, one of which is that he genuinely believed Sirius had killed all the muggles thus did not save him from the imprisonment that such a crime would have warranted.

I doubt that anyone of them knew exactly how that "marking" was going to be made. There could have been other ways for Harry to get marked than that AK. That marking wasn't really "due" at that early time in Harrys life.

It also seems very clearly to me that James in fact was there at Godric's Hollow. I hve not the slightest idea where there could be doubt about that. Did I miss something?

Sabine

[Drusilla]

James did the one thing that, had Voldemort ever thought about it, he wished his own father would do. Stand by his wife and son and defend them, no matter what the cost.


Excellent point,jordmundt6!It just never occurred to anyone before,but you're probably right.

One more question about the night of the attack:would the Dark Mark have appeared in the sky over the Potter house?I don't know if it was Voldemort's custom to send it into the air when he was about to kill someone or when he was done with killing them-if it was the latter it wouldn't have appeared-but I just thought the members of the Order of the Phoenix could have been alerted by the presence of the Dark Mark in Godric's Hollow,if it was there.

[jordmundt6]

That was probably the seal to Voldemort's victory, but he never got a chance to cast it. He was ripped from his body and couldn't do any sort of magic except continue to exist. That's another argument for him being alone. Maybe Pettigrew wouldn't have done this but almost any other DE would have sent up the Dark Mark if for no other reason than to reassure him/herself and colleagues that Voldemort had survived and create the impression for the Order that Voldemort's powers were intact.

Sabine--No, I didn't say give Harry ALL the credit, but how about giving him SOME of the credit. About Harry vs. James. That's tough. Harry's still really raw. Let's just say that I believe he has the potential to be that much stronger than James (I do not think James, for all his talent could have produced a Corporeal Patronus in his third year, AT ALL, and I'd be hard-pressed to believe that he could conjure one strong enough to scatter a hundred Dementors, even in his prime. That seems more on Dumbledore's level).

Edit #2: As to Dumbledore as Secret-Keeper--he's too vital to the survival of the entire magical and, by extension, Muggle world to risk this way.

[Drusilla]

Another question:how did Dumbledore know what happened at Godric's Hollow that night,and find out Harry was alive?My guess is that the pocket-watch thing he used at Privet Drive was something similar to the Weasley clock,only this one was for the Potters,and it may be how Dumbledore knew Harry was alive,and was able to think of where next to send him-he might have been using it to keep tabs on the Potter's whereabouts and general condition,even though he couldn't make direct contact with them.

[purplehawk]

Someone mentioned there is no reference to how the Fidelius Charm works? Flitwick describes it in PoA, during the teachers' discussion with Fudge and Madam Rosmerta.

[jordmundt6]

He describes what it does, not how it is cast, though. That would be an interesting topic.

[Kaonashi]

I think it's a spell that only more powerful wizards can do. I don't think that Dumbledore performed it on Pettigrew though because he had no knowledge that Sirius was innocent until the end of PoA. that leads me to believe that Sirius performed the Charm on Pettigrew after Dumbledore performed it on him (maybe by showing him a piece of paper that had the Potter's address written on it?) It's supposed to be a very hard charm. Maybe it's something you learn 7th year or in the books in the Restricted Section of the library.

[jordmundt6]

That's why I think the person who performed it might have been Lily--Charms were her specialty and she was very powerful. Furthermore, they'd want as few witnesses as possible to the actual invocation of the Charm, so Flitwick's out (or he would have spoken up by now about who was there when he cast the spell).

[Kaonashi]

Your right about that. The very nature of the spell would probably mean that only the charmer and the charmee could be present in order for it to work. For all we know, she might have performed the charm on Peter directly; they were all friends, Sirius thought Lupin was the spy and probably convinced her to do it to Peter instead and not to mention the switcheroo to anyone.

[Drusilla]

Kaonashi,please don't double post:I think you did it by mistake.You may be right about Lily being the spellcaster for the Fidelius Charm that was protecting the Potters,and Dumbledore not knowing about it because of that.

Another thing I thought of was the Potters' house:I think it was probably hidden,with Muggle-repelling charms on it,and so the night of the attack,it probably looked like a mouldering old ruin had collapsed-to the Muggles.Does anyone agree with me?

[rotsiepots]

Godric's Hollow is a Muggle village, so I doubt the witches and wizards living there would take extra precautions in terms of protecting their houses. They have to interact with the Muggles (to a certain degree) every day, so I'm sure a witch or wizard living in a collapsing ruin would attract more attention than just a regular house.

The Muggles did come "swarming" around after the Potters' house was destroyed, so I'm sure they saw the situation for what it was.

[whizbang121]

Godric's Hollow is a Muggle village, so I doubt the witches and wizards living there would take extra precautions in terms of protecting their houses. They have to interact with the Muggles (to a certain degree) every day, so I'm sure a witch or wizard living in a collapsing ruin would attract more attention than just a regular house.

The Muggles did come "swarming" around after the Potters' house was destroyed, so I'm sure they saw the situation for what it was.

Interesting. I wonder what the muggle newspapers reported about the incident.

[jordmundt6]

Rotsie--Huh? Grimmuald Place is IN LONDON. Blacks were SURROUNDED by Muggles and they took every precaution EXCEPT a Fidelius Charm to conceal their house. If it's an ancestral home, it's quite possible that similar spells were put around the Potters' house. Now granted, James and Lily are a lot friendlier to Muggles than the Blacks are and might not see the need, but maybe under extreme threat they took precautions they wouldn't normally agree with in case one more precaution might mean the difference between life and death.

[purplehawk]

You know what, though? They obviously didn't, if there were muggles swarming all over the premises after they were killed.

[jordmundt6]

But would the spells protecting a house survive its destruction. We know it sirvives beyond the life of the caster, (look at Sirius' house) but what about the physical destruction of a protected house? :huh:

[purplehawk]

I don't know! It seems as though their deaths would have nullified the Fidelius Charm, but maybe not others - if, indeed, there were other masking charms placed on the property.

[jordmundt6]

But that's my point. Just like their deaths would nullify the Fidelius Charm, wouldn't the destruction of the house nullify Muggle-repelling spells designed to protect the house? :banghead:

[hesdead-dealwithit]

But that's my point. Just like their deaths would nullify the Fidelius Charm, wouldn't the destruction of the house nullify Muggle-repelling spells designed to protect the house? :banghead:
It would have to. You have to have consistency. But that is only if the destruction of the house nullified the Charm. It is possible that the death of the Potters left nullified it, however, and the other charms remained. (Let's say the Charm said "James and Lily Potter are hidden in -yournumberhere- Godric's Hollow." Well, when there's no James or Lily, maybe the charm ends then.)

[purplehawk]

It seems so. Muggles were able to see what happened. That wouldn't be possible if the masking charms were still in effect.

[jordmundt6]

But that's assuming there WERE masking charms. We don't know that for a fact (yet). This is just gonna drive me nuts for the next two or three years isn't it?:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[purplehawk]

:agree: :agree: :agree: You're in for a rough couple of years, bud.

[jordmundt6]

Don't I know it!:D :banghead: Oh well, back to the drawing board.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Couple of years? Make that five or six. We've got two books to wait for, you know. :D

[jordmundt6]

I expect SOME of these questions to be answered by Book Six, okay?:D I don't think that's unreasonable.

[dorcasderr]

Boy has this thread gotten off topic! But, even though I stayed up WAY to late last night reading it, I was fascinated by every post. Good thinking guys, you've given us all a lot to ponder. I especially loved Jordmundt6's comment. "James did the one thing that, had Voldemort ever thought about it, he wished his own father would do. Stand by his wife and son and defend them, no matter what the cost." The importance of a father's legacy in the life of his son couldn't be pointed out more poiniantly than that.

[whizbang121]

Wow. Way off topic. They all have. We are busting out of our bonds. lol
We have no idea where the Potters are buried or if their bodies were ever found. Anyone think Peter told Hagrid where they were? He did get into the house and take out the baby.

[jordmundt6]

WHAT? Geez it must be late. Sirius drove like a demon and arrived to a massacre "I saw the ruins..I saw the bodies....I knew what Peter must have done, wht I'd done..." The bodies were found. Who buried them and where we have no idea, but it's safe to assume that they are buried.

[whizbang121]

bump

[Drusilla]

I wonder how Dumbledore knew that Harry would need the protection of his mother's blood-he had to have formed the plan instantaneously if Hagrid was able to tell Sirius,while taking Harry out of the ruins) that he was taking him,on Dumbledore's orders,to the Dursleys.
Does anyone besides me think that the watch he had in PS,the one with little planets moving around the edges,could have been some kind of surveillance device meant to keep watch (excuse the pun) over the Potters?

[Angora]

All kinds of good stuff in this thread. Firstly:

Plus, if Lily and James were killed on Halloween, why weren't there Trick or Treaters there?

:rotfl: I'm not laughing at you. I'm just trying to picture it.

I think there is a difference between what Harry thinks he is hearing (his Mother's screams and his father's voice) and what he actually heard. I have a strong feeling that maybe Harry's parents weren't alone in the house, though I have no basis in the books for that.

I'm starting to suspect that too. When Harry hears/remembers the conversation in POA, it seems wierd. Each time he hears it, it's different, so either it went on for a really long time or he's not remembering it right or something. But I wonder if someone ran in ahead of Voldemort and tried to get Lilly to leave. I also have nothing to back that up. Just speculation.

One thing is for certain, to me. A small baby with a scar like that must have bled alot... He would have needed medical attention right away... I think he was taken somewhere for all that.

Yes, exactly. Hagrid describes Harry as having a "gash" on his head, and normally when you get a scar you have to have cut yourself fairly deeply first. I definitely think he went somewhere for medical attention.

This means Dumbledore knew already and had sent Hagrid. Leaves the question: Why send Hagrid? ...someone sends word about the raid at the potters and he SENDS HAGRID? ... Then Sirius showed up. Hagrid comforted him AND told Sirius already that he was to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle.

That bothers me too. Firstly, Hagrid isn't a wizard. So, even if he does cheat with his umbrella, he probably isn't practiced enough to be able to defend himself if the place was swarming with Death Eaters (or if Voldemort was still there). Secondly, why would you send anyone by himself, if you thought there was danger? Plus, Hagrid arrived with orders to take Harry to the Durselys, so all of that indicates that DD knew pretty much for a fact before sending Hagrid there, what the situation was. If someone showed up on the scene before Hagrid to report to DD, you would think they would try to fish Harry out of the rubble themselves. But more on that later.

And since it was Halloween and there were students at Hogwarts, at least thats what I assume, Dumbledore would most probably be there.

I like this explaination of where Dumbledore was. It makes sense that he would stay at the school, especially if there was initially some confusion about what was going on.

And if Dumbledore would have been told from some reliable source, that Voldemort met his downfall there...
He can use Fawkes, who was IMO first on the scene in Godric's Hollow and quite possibly took tidings to the Longbottoms and other members of the Order.

I like this idea too, and it would explain why the person who reported back to DD left Harry where he was (Fawkes probably couldn't dig Harry out on his own). Also, Fawkes is an animal, and I don't recall if DD gave Crookshanks, Pig and Hedwig special invitations to Grimmauld Place, but I wouldn't be surprised if animals didn't need them. So, if the house in Godric's Hollow was still fideliussed, Fawkes might not have had a problem getting there.

If DD was sending him to make any kind of regular, routine checks (because it might have been hard for them to communicate normally, given the Potters' need for security) and, as a result of one of these checks, Fawkes discovered the house in ruins, that would also explain why nobody seems to have sounded the alarm and dispatched Order memebers to help the Potters - it would explain how DD could both know there had been an attack but have been taken too completly by surprise to offer any assistance.

I understand Snape probably (do we know for a fact or just assume) gave a heads up that Voldemort was coming after the boys, but did he know it was specifically Harry that had been chosen, or just that Voldemort knew about the Prophecy indicating he had two choices (IE: Harry or Neville)?

I sort of wonder if Snape, or whoever it was that tipped DD off about Voldemort's intentions, made a mistake/was purposely fed misinformation/accidentally got his wires crossed and delivered a message that there was definitely going to be an attack in short order against the Longbottoms. With all the themes about racial purity, I do wonder if someone, somewhere along the line, assumed (incorrectly) that Voldemort had chosen Neville because he was a pureblood. And if maybe everyone, while placing all due security around the Potters (because they knew previously that both families were in danger), was bracing for an attack on the Longbottoms instead. I have nothing to base that on, it's just speculation.

And finally, Lily and the Fidelius charm.

I think considering we know it's supposed to be "important" that Lily's wand it good for charm work, it's likely that she preformed the Fidelius charm on Peter herself. I wonder if maybe it's had some lasting effect on Peter that we're unaware of (certainly Hermione, at age fifteen, managed to make it so that anyone betraying DA would break out in boils... maybe Lily threw something extra in there somehow).

[whizbang121]

:eyebrows:

Dumbledore sent Hagrid to get Harry from the Dursleys, too. And Hagrid turned up in Knocturn Alley when Harry was lost. Was he sent? Somehow, Harry is safe when he's with Hagrid.

[Dead Star]

They also may have had to check Harry out and observe him for a while to see if he had any ill effects other than the scar. Hagrid may have rescued him before the Muggle community arrived but probably took him smewhere more private nearby, where he met with Dumbledore and whoever magically medical was needed to give him a clean bill of health. Then, after tDumbledore and anyone else who was there had left, Hagrid had to wait until night so as not to be seen flying the motorcycle. He couldn't, after all, apparate because he wasn't allowed to do magic (except fly on enchanted motorcycle...?)

You made some very good points, and I agree.

Makes me sad to think that little baby Harry might've been waiting there at Godric's Hollow for a little while before he was found. Could you imagine walking into that place, especially from Sirius' perspective? Sheesh, poor Sirius and Hagrid.

And I don't know if this has been said before (too many pages and I can't be bothered right now) but I was just thinking that Voldemort killed James like that, but didn't want to kill Lily at first was because of his own past.

[morgan le fay]

I like this idea too, and it would explain why the person who reported back to DD left Harry where he was (Fawkes probably couldn't dig Harry out on his own). Also, Fawkes is an animal, and I don't recall if DD gave Crookshanks, Pig and Hedwig special invitations to Grimmauld Place, but I wouldn't be surprised if animals didn't need them. So, if the house in Godric's Hollow was still fideliussed, Fawkes might not have had a problem getting there.

while i also agree that fawkes would be an excellent guess at dumbledore's information and dispatch, im not sure i can agree with animals not needing be told by the secret keeper. if this were/is so, it would implicate animagis and werewolves while in their animal forms. if lupin were say in his werewolf transition, what if he accidentally stumbled on godric's hollow and harmed the potters unintentially?? if there were any unregistered animagis serving voldemort, what if he could just send them to roam and search for the potters and kill them? maybe animagis dont count since they are technically human?

And finally, Lilly and the Fidelius charm.

I think considering we know it's supposed to be "important" that Lilly's wand it good for charm work, it's likely that she preformed the Fidelius charm on Peter herself. I wonder if maybe it's had some lasting effect on Peter that we're unaware of (certainly Hermione, at age fifteen, managed to make it so that anyone betraying DA would break out in boils... maybe Lilly threw something extra in there somehow).

i also like this theory. but would they have thought of it? did anyone suspect that peter, unlike sirius or lupin, would not die for them rather than betray them? afterall, hermione's charm on the DA register was put into place because what they were doing was technically illegal and they couldnt afford to get ratted out. plus any charm or effect that lily may have additionally put into place would likely had taken effect upon peter's betrayal, most likely right?

id like to know how prof mcgonagall knew to be at privet drive all day. the hp-lexicon says in this article (http://www.hp-lexicon.org/timelines/timeline_potters2.html) that hagrid told her. but in PS chapter one, she says
"But how is the boy getting here, Dumbledore?"
"Hagrid's bringing him."
"You think it - wise - to trust Hagrid with something as important as this?"
here she acts with surprise that Hagrid is carrying Harry. you would think that if Hagrid was her source of information that she would know how he was being transported. where were harry and hagrid all that time? im sure this has been discussed somewhere on this thread, so if someone could reiterate or give a post # reference, i'll gladly turn back and read. :)

[Barbara Kennedy]

:eyebrows:

Dumbledore sent Hagrid to get Harry from the Dursleys, too. And Hagrid turned up in Knocturn Alley when Harry was lost. Was he sent? Somehow, Harry is safe when he's with Hagrid.
As a half-giant, Hagrid is at least partially immune to a lot of magic. Who better to act as a shield and defender all in one?

[glugunkwen]

I think perhaps he was put into Hagrid's care because he would be least suspect. DE's would probably assume Harry would be swept into the protection of a powerful wizard. If Dumbledore suspected this, he may have chosen Hagrid because he figured no-one would think of him. And Dumbledore says several times how much he trusts Hagrid.

[Angora]

while i also agree that fawkes would be an excellent guess at dumbledore's information and dispatch, im not sure i can agree with animals not needing be told by the secret keeper. if this were/is so, it would implicate animagis and werewolves while in their animal forms. if lupin were say in his werewolf transition, what if he accidentally stumbled on godric's hollow and harmed the potters unintentially?? if there were any unregistered animagis serving voldemort, what if he could just send them to roam and search for the potters and kill them? maybe animagis dont count since they are technically human?

It's an interesting question. I think for werewolves, because they're not actually wolves, they wouldn't count as being animals (because werewolf is more like a type of human than it is a type of wolf). And animagis likewise aren't really animals. They're just humans in the form of animals.

But, if you take an inventory of all the creatures living in Grimmauld place what might not have warranted an invitation (the doxys, the ghoul, the boggart, the spiders)... I wonder if either they don't need an invitation, or else if anyone who's already in the house when fidelius is cast is allowed to stay.

Which adds something else. I wonder house elves need an invitation. Because not only did Kreacher stay in Grimmauld place, but he was able to leave and come back. And there's just something werid about DD going up to Kreacher and saying, "The Order of the Phoenix is located at 12 Grimmauld Place." Although he very well may have done that... but I'm not sure why they would choose to keep Kreacher there.

[whizbang121]

Caps Lock Harry. :lol: I love it.

ahem.
Interesting point about Kreacher. I was just reading the dream Harry had on the morning they caught the train to school. Mrs Weasley was sobbing over Kreacher's dead body. Ron and Hermione were wearing crowns.

[Kimmetje]

I think he was at the DoM as it was rather weird if he was under the dirt for 24 hours. I think he was being searched for weird things and for how he survived (seems logical)...

[FredWeasleyJr]

Well im sure that dumbledore needed time to think out his plan, and he needed Mcgonagal to watch over the dursleys. int he meantime it hink hagrid probably took harry to hogwarts, with the watch of many teachers and all of the charms and protetion over the place. All of the nessesary actions probably took about a day and DD needed to do it at night so it would all make sense for harry to be put there a day later

wat doesnt make sense is leaving harry on the doorstep and not waking hte durselys up first and making sure hes in the house

[SquibOnline]

Hagrid said that Harry had fallen asleep when they were flying over bristol. So that means that they probably lived quite a distance from surrey

[Dead Star]

wat doesnt make sense is leaving harry on the doorstep and not waking hte durselys up first and making sure hes in the house

I think McGonagall might've stayed there as a cat to watch Harry until he was found in the morning.

[whizbang121]

What if Godric's Hollow is in the South of Ireland. Didn't Hagrid say in PoA, that if he'd given Harry to Sirius, Sirius might have dropped him into the sea?

Also, I remember something about apparating over great distances. A dangerous margin of error or something. Could it explain why Sirius didn't apparate to GH?

[UselessCharmMaster]

Well, maybe he wasn't very good in Apparating? Doesn't seem he used it when being on the run from Azkaban, he preferred his animagus form. Or maybe it's difficult to do when you're not calm and concentrated.

And - how did Hagrid get TO Godrics Hollow? It had to be done fast. What kind of magic is he allowed to use?

[Wab]

What if Godric's Hollow is in the South of Ireland. Didn't Hagrid say in PoA, that if he'd given Harry to Sirius, Sirius might have dropped him into the sea?


I'd say Wales which allows for Bristol and the opportunity ti drop Harry into the sea with a slight detour. Or the Severn Estuary which is close enough.

Although had Hagrid been trasnporting Hagrid from the death site of St Godric (stretching the heir of Gryffindor to the limit) in Durham Bristol would have been a bit out of the way.

Although it is interesting (HP-wise) to note that Godric was "Noted for his close familiarity with wild animals, his supernatural visions, his gift of prophecy, and ability to know of events occurring hundreds or thousands of miles away."

http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintg6t.htm

And he is traditionally represented with a stag.

[whizbang121]

Well, maybe he wasn't very good in Apparating? Doesn't seem he used it when being on the run from Azkaban, he preferred his animagus form. Or maybe it's difficult to do when you're not calm and concentrated.

And - how did Hagrid get TO Godrics Hollow? It had to be done fast. What kind of magic is he allowed to use?He was allowed to use magic to fetch Harry from the Dursleys. Maybe it was true when he fetched him from GH as well.
I'm trying allow for the time it took to get Harry and get back to Surrey without putting GH in the middle of the Atlantic. Souther Ireland could work. As for how he got there,he runs the first years to Hogwarts in boats. In fact, that's how he got Harry off the rock in the sea. If Harry was in Ireland, maybe he got there in a boat? Very Hamlet's Mill.

[Alba]

Has anyone else noticed the proximity of Bristol and Ottery St. Catchpole ( check out the HP Lexicon for a map)? I was thinking that it is decidedly odd that Hagrid mentions Bristol at all, and Harry would need to be taken somewhere safe, both perhaps to give Dumbledore time to do what was needed, and also to be changed and fed! (And I bet Hagrid would have appreciated a cuppa, too!) Is it possible that Harry was taken to the Weasley's for a while ( which might explain Molly's extreme motherliness toward him, if she cared for him in the immediate aftermath of Voldemort's attack)? Hagrid wouldn't just stop off anywhere, as you didn't know who could be trusted and most of the Order's members would be out fighting. There would be few homes that would be more child-friendly than the Weasley's. Is it possible that the Order's HQ was located there as well, making it even more safe as a stop-off point?

[Giebfried]

That's interesting, but I really don't think Molly comes in until the first book. Voldemort was gone, so leaving Harry on the steps seems no problem. Voldemort's death eaters had fled, too, so it was all okay. Plus, wasn't there something like Harry couldn't be harmed while he was staying with family as the same blood of his mother?

[whizbang121]

If Godric's Hollow was in the south of Ireland, it would explain why it took so long to get Harry from there to Surrey, they would have to fly over Bristol and it would also explain why Hargrid commented in PoA, that if he had given Harry to his godfather, Sirius would probably have dropped him into the sea.

As apparating over distances is considered dangerous, Sirius would have had to find another way back to London. That would explain why it took a day for him to find and confront Pettigrew.

I think if we follow a line from Surrey through Bristol and out to sea it will put us near the southern tip of Ireland or possibly on an island.

Didn't JKR comment that in one of her drafts for PS/SS Mr Granger saw an explosion on an island that was going to be Godrics Hollow? I think it was in the North Sea, though. Maybe she moved it?

[Wab]

I got the impression that Ottery St Catchpole was in the Home Counties (ie not near Bristol) as the Weasley's drove the Anglia (in normal mode) from there to London and it wasn't a long trip.

[Alba]

Actually, I had thought that too, for the same reason, and was a bit surprised to see it located near Exeter in the Harry Potter Lexicon. This is their rationale for it:

"Although the actual location of Ottery St. Catchpole has never been stated, it is almost certain that the town is along the Otter River because of its name."

I agree my theory does only work if it is located here. However, I do think "The Burrow" fits in with the idea of rural south-west England better than the home counties, don't you?

[ydnam96]

As apparating over distances is considered dangerous, Sirius would have had to find another way back to London. That would explain why it took a day for him to find and confront Pettigrew.

I don't recal there being a mention of Apparating over long distances being dangerous. I think I recal that people from all over the world apparated to the World Cup. The only reason that Mr. Weasley, Harry, Ginny, Hermione, Ron, and the Twins used the Portkey was because they could not apparate. Charlie, Percy, and Bill all apparated.

Although, your theory would make sense in that it makes up for some of the "lost" time. But I'm not remembering in the books where that is supported (I could be wrong, in which case I'm sorry)

[whizbang121]

I'll look for it.

This page has an explanation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparate

I think it's in OotP. Off to check book.

This is from the lexicon.
Apparition (A-pa-RI-shun)

Apparate, Disapparate

incantation unknown

from "appareo" L. to appear

Advanced spell used by fully trained wizards to disappear from one place and appear almost instantly somewhere else.

* See SS2 for a possible example of Apparition as wandless magic.
* Very difficult spell. Done incorrectly, apparition can result in the caster being "splinched", which refers to part of the caster's body being left behind.
* Wizards must pass a test in order to be obtain a license to be allowed to perform it. To take the test, the applicant must be of age in the Wizarding world (at least 17).
* Apparition becomes more difficult as distance increases. Only highly trained wizards would try intercontinental Apparating.

[ydnam96]

Thanks Whizbang
I had not read that on the Lexicon, if you find something in the book I would love to re-read that part. :)