M-13 - Discrimination.. Your Views?

[JamesI]

Self-explanatory really.. What are your views on discrimination, in any form, of anyone, and someone who makes another persons life difficult because of what they are, or their beliefs?

[Wild Rose]

I just dont see the point of it, most of the time.
There are a few groups I discriminate against (criminals, for one) but that isn't what is meant, I guess, because I can back that up with good reasons.

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[Mireille]

Discrimination is wrong, in any form. Some people may have messed up, such as criminals, but to discriminate against them isn't the right thing to do, IMO. The most well known cases of discrimination are against minorities, but what makes them so inferior to others? Everyone is human and want the same things in life. No one should be put through what some people are put through. Life is cruel, but humans don't have to make it cruel for each other.

[tabby]

^Discrimination isn't always based on the belief of superiority.

Tricky question. Not as simple as it seems.

It really depends on the circumstances.

I disagree with any discrimination that denies someone their basic human rights. I also disagree with businesses and governments discriminating based on race or religion. Other than that, it depends.

Some discrimination is simply necessary. Penelope Clearwater said that once a criminal has served their time we should stop discriminating against them. I have to ask, what about pedeophiles? Many serve their time and are released back into our communities. Should we allow them to teach in our preschools? Or should we allow the community to discriminate against them to ensure their kids aren't at a greater risk of abuse? In that circumstance I think discriminating against released pedeophiles is perfectly acceptable.

Similiar things can be said for numerous things in life.

Should christian clubs be forced to accept muslims, or can they continue to discriminate?

Should the mens football team be forced to accept women, or should they be allowed to discriminate?

As far as personal discrimination goes, I have absolutely no problem with it. We all have the right to choose who we associate with, and we can use whatever reasoning we want.

[Wild Rose]

"As far as personal discrimination goes, I have absolutely no problem with it. We all have the right to choose who we associate with, and we can use whatever reasoning we want."

But what about people who try to stop people associating with others, based on some stupid critera?

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[tabby]

Who gets to decide what is a stupid criteria?

I don't think anyone has the right to stop another adult from associating with who they want to.

[Wild Rose]

"I don't think anyone has the right to stop another adult from associating with who they want to."

Exactly.
But as for stupid critera, how is this. My mother has banned me from seeing a male friend of mine, purely because he is gay. This guy is a lovely bloke, has looked after me, and never done anything wrong. But she banned me from seeing him. Yet she will quite happily let me hang around with girls I go out to pubs and clubs with, or straight men, who I could be doing all sorts of things with. It's stupid.

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[tabby]

^It's a stupid criteria to you. Unfortunately there are plenty of people who would agree with your mother.

Who's to say you're not the one who's wrong?

Some parents don't allow their kids to assocate with nazis. I bet the nazis believe that it's a stupid criteria. Who is to say?

So long as an adult is responsible for a minor I have no problem with them saying who a minor can and can not associate with. No matter what I think about their reasoning. Because they are the one with the responsibility, not me.

[Wild Rose]

Ok, so there are reasons for it, perhaps. But at 16, am I technically a minor (I'm in England)?

And there are reasons for not associating with nazis. Nazis kill people, or want to kill people. Gay people dont. (Or rather, some might, but not 'gay people' as a group)

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[Sirius83]

Discrimination in any form or fashion is simply wrong. If someone personally has done something wrong you should be weary of them, but discrimination of for instance an entire group is simply unjustified and wrong. There is simply no excuse for it.

[Wild Rose]

Also, descriminating against nazis is based on their ideas and actions, not who they are. It is how they act. That is very different to discriminating against black people.

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[tabby]

^Discriminating against gays is also very different to discriminating against blacks.

Even if we believe views that blacks are inferior to be wrong, do we have the right to force those views on others? Do you suggest we force them to socialise with blacks?

Originally posted by Wild Rose (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=220390#post220390))
Ok, so there are reasons for it, perhaps. But at 16, am I technically a minor (I'm in England)?

Yep. At 18 you'll legally become an adult. Until then you're a minor.

And there are reasons for not associating with nazis. Nazis kill people, or want to kill people. Gay people dont. (Or rather, some might, but not 'gay people' as a group)

You are looking at it from your view of there being nothing wrong with homosexuality. Try and look at it from the view that homosexuality is a sin. In that way it's like wanting to stay away from any one who you consider immoral. When it comes to your kids it makes even more sense because it's a natural instinct for a lot of parents to keep their kids away from harmful influences. It's the same as choosing not to associate with drunks, or anyone whos behaviour you disagree with.

[Wild Rose]

I suppose you are right about the point of view.
But why is discriminating against black people different to discriminating against gay people?

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[JamesI]

It's not..

[JamesI]

It isn't even...

[tizzy weasley]

I think discrimination is bad. I see a lot of it at school. And people start talking about certain people or whaever..I just either walk away or say i ahve nothing to say in the matter. Mmy friends know what I mean. So they keep their mouth shuts around me.

[JamesI]

Wish people would do that around me..

[Picko]

You are looking at it from your view of there being nothing wrong with homosexuality. Try and look at it from the view that homosexuality is a sin. In that way it's like wanting to stay away from any one who you consider immoral. When it comes to your kids it makes even more sense because it's a natural instinct for a lot of parents to keep their kids away from harmful influences. It's the same as choosing not to associate with drunks, or anyone whos behaviour you disagree with.

Well you might want to look yourself in a windowless room. There is nothing wrong with how White Rose has approached this. In fact I think that bringing religion into your argument doesn't make it valid because religion isn't based on logic but debate always is. That said we are all to a certain degree immoral and we all commit these so-called "sins". Homosexualality is a natural thing that we know, so how can it truly be a bad thing or worthy of discrimination.

[tabby]

Originally posted by Wild Rose:
But why is discriminating against black people different to discriminating against gay people?

No one gets to choose the colour of their skin. You are born with it and there is nothing that can change it. You don't get to choose your sexuality either, but you do get to choose your behaviour. You can be gay but choose not to act on it. It's the behaviour, not the desires most people have a problem with.

It might not be a nice choice, but it is a choice. No one has any type of choice in regards to their skin colour.

[tabby]

Originally posted by Picko (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=221748#post221748))
Well you might want to look yourself in a windowless room. There is nothing wrong with how White Rose has approached this. In fact I think that bringing religion into your argument doesn't make it valid because religion isn't based on logic but debate always is. That said we are all to a certain degree immoral and we all commit these so-called "sins". Homosexualality is a natural thing that we know, so how can it truly be a bad thing or worthy of discrimination.


Firstly I don't think it's worthy of discrimination. I'm gay myself. I hate it. I just can understand it. It was just an example Wild Rose bought up.

Why is personal discrimination such a bad thing?

Shouldn't we all have the right to decide who we want to associate with on based on whatever reasoning we want? If now, why not?

We all have to decide for ourselves what we believe to me moral and acceptable. I just see this as an extention of that. If someone considers a behaviour, any behaviour, to be unacceptable I think it's perfectly acceptable for them to refuse to associate with those guilty of said behaviour.

[Wild Rose]

Um *puts hand up* an I just point out that I am Wild Rose. There is a White Rose, but I am not she. I keep getting confused from seeing her on the map, and thinking "but i'm here, not there!"

And I dont think we started off talking about associating with people. We were talking about treating them badly based on who/what they are.
People have a right to be friends with who they want. I do not believe they have a right to demean other people, just because theu dont agree with them.

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[Picko]

Sorry Wild Rose, I just saw the word "Rose" and didn't even think about it.

[tabby]

We were talking about discrimination.

Discrimination against someone doesn't automatically mean the same thing as treating them badly.

And you were disagreeing with me about personal discrimination. If you didn't understand what I was talking about you should have asked for clarification rather than disagreed.

[Wild Rose]

I mean discrimination in the sense I was always taught about it, of treating somone differently because of something about them. How did you mean it?

And Picko, I know what you mean. Just thought I ought to point it out, in case the real White Rose pops along!

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[vannay]

i get the impression that everyone needs someone to look down on. over the centuries these things change, from blacks to gays to teenage mothers.... its also very difficult not to discriminate:

women England was recently found ot have the largest gap between male and female saleries in the whole of europe- think about that for a minute- that includes the poorer countries... is this discrimination- how? should a woman who has a family to bring up be exculded from the top jobs because she cant put in so many hours..... id say no (please note i am a woman) this isnt dicrimination its buisness sense... but could it be seen as discrimination? yes i think so

education and poor people its a proven fact that poeple from working class backgrounds dont get as far in the british education system as people from the middle classes. however a bill was recently over thrown in parliment to make universities take a minimum percentage of people from poorer familes for fear of ending up with postive discrimination.... is this descrimination against the working classes? tricky subject.

discriminating against the discriminators i saw someone back there just now.... talk about Nazi's - is it ok to discriminate against them because they discriminate against others- or should all voices be heard even the extreme ones....


its difficult to make a sweeping statement "discrimination is wrong" i personally believe that judging someones worth purely on outside factors- skin colour, sex, class, sexual orientatino is wrong. but discrimating against somenoe becuase of thier personalitly and beliefs is alot trickier a subject. i do discrimate against poeple everyone does, but i do try and get to know something real about the person first.


ive heard people say "i dont like pakis" "why not?" i reply "cus they are taking up all the housing in UK" or whatever reason they give- "and yet..." i say "do you know any pakistani people, have you ever met any?" to wich invairbaly the answer is no.

one last story- i always thought that teenages who got pregnant were stupid people usually who barely knew the father and were getting pregnant to get on welfare. of course this view changed as i grew but i still always thought of teen pregnancys as bad. then my oldest friend got pregnant... with her boyfriend of 4 years, she now has a 2 year old son owns her own flat etc. now when i tell people i know that i have a friend with a child- i can see it in their expression "oh antoher teen mother, scrounging off the state" kinda makes you think....

[Mireille]

I thought maybe this may clear up some grey areas that some people may have. Not everyone may know what the definition of discrimination is so here is the definition of the word.


Discrimination: Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

I'm not implying that the people who have posted here already do not know the definition. I only wanted to let others that may not understand know what is being discussed.[

[Wild Rose]

Thank you for that. Everyone here will have different backgrounds, education, and experiences. It is a good idea to have a common definition.

With regards to my comment about Nazis- I believe that it is justified to have certain attitudes to someone based on their actions.

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[vannay]

but discrimating against somenoe becuase of thier personalitly and beliefs is alot trickier a subject. i do discrimate against poeple everyone does, but i do try and get to know something real about the person first.

Discrimination: Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

just to - elaborate slightly.... the fist quote is by me i meant that its easy not to discriminate people for their race or whatever, but what about discriminating against someone you know to be a fundamentalist christian, or someone who has a very right wing political standing.... thats harder to say- "yes i will take that person on their individual merits" and i think personally its a more common form of discrimination, but i still feel its discrimination becuase its treating someone based on catagory as you said.

[tabby]

^I agree. Discrimination isn't just based on race. It's based on any category you can put someone into. No matter what the category is, not everyone in it is going to have the view on everything.

Originally posted by Wild Rose (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=221798#post221798))And I dont think we started off talking about associating with people. We were talking about treating them badly based on who/what they are.

I'm going to give this a proper answer. Just ignore the one I wrote earlier.

I wasn't necessarily talking about who someone chooses to be friends with. A lot of people aren't friends with the majority of people they assocaite with on a non-professional basis.

It includes groups and clubs. And who you buy your meat off every week.

I still see it the same though.

[JamesI]

quote:
Originally posted by Penelope Clearwater (original post)
I thought maybe this may clear up some grey areas that some people may have. Not everyone may know what the definition of discrimination is so here is the definition of the word.

Discrimination: Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice: racial discrimination; discrimination against foreigners.

Can anyone really give a definition of discrimination if you've never been on the recieving end of it?

I've had plenty of people come up to me and say: "You're disabled, so I'm not going to have anything to do with you."

Isn't that discrimination?

[Mireille]

Well, my definition that I posted is from dictionary.com so it's the official definition. I was trying to clear up the definition for those members that are either not familiar with the word or English is their second language.

As for your disabled question, to me, yes, that is discrimination. Passing judgment on someone because of what they look, talk, or sound like, in my book, is discrimination.

[pasalita]

Just to clarify: The discrimination definition posted by Penelope, while valid, is not the only one that exists and can be defined in more or less ways.

[Wild Rose]

I think that it is best described by the people who have suffered it. If you are not on the recieving end, you may be able to describe it, but you cannot understand it.

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[JamesI]

quote: (originally posted by Wild Rose)
I think that it is best described by the people who have suffered it. If you are not on the recieving end, you may be able to describe it, but you cannot understand it.

Exactly. Unless you've suffered it, and been on the recieving end, how can you understand, and define what it is?

[Wild Rose]

No more answers? Starnge, I would have thought more people would have had views on this.
One thing that really bugs me is 'postive' discrimination, in jobs and things. In my view, it just leads to resentment.

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[JamesI]

Explain, Rose?

[Wild Rose]

Positive discrimination is where they say "you must have X number of such asd such a group" Like women, or black people, or whatever. It happens quite often in jobs.

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[JamesI]

Why is it called positive discrimination? Sounds rather negative to me..

[fuzzi95]

I'm not too sure discrimination is too great!

[triki1988]

Well, I've been discriminated against after I told my Spanish last name to this girl in my school. She thinks I'm less because I was not born in the United States. Therefore, she claims, that makes me a "ref".

[Wild Rose]

Because is is taking a normally discriminated against group, and giving them advantages. Except it just shifts the bias.

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[DocHollidaywe]

Totally against it .... People should not be looked down upon because of who they are, how they look, what they believe etc. Its a terrible thing.

[JamesI]

Originally posted by DocHollidaywe (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=243790#post243790))
Totally against it .... People should not be looked down upon because of who they are, how they look, what they believe etc.

Exactly.. :)

[Goldie]

Personally, I'm waiting for the day when people wonder wh we ever observed Black History Month/Women's History Month, etc.

Looks like a long wait.

[Sebastian06]

Georgians Plan Whites - Only Prom Party
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS


Filed at 2:24 p.m. ET

ALBANY, Ga. (AP) -- A year after holding their first integrated prom, some students at Taylor County High School have decided to again hold a separate, private party for whites only.

While many whites say they still plan to attend next week's integrated prom, the decision to hold the whites-only prom this Friday saddened senior Gerica McCrary, who helped organize last year's dance.

``I cried,'' said McCrary, who is black. ``The black juniors said, 'Our prom is open to everyone. If you want to come, come.'''

Juniors are in charge of planning the prom each year and last year they decided to have just one dance -- the first integrated prom in 31 years in the rural Georgia county 150 miles south of Atlanta.

Until then, parents and students organized separate proms for whites and blacks after school officials stopped sponsoring dances, in part because they wanted to avoid problems arising from interracial dating.

This year, a small number of white juniors decided they wanted a separate prom.

``They influenced the others,'' said McCrary, who plans to major in biology at Columbus State University. ``They didn't vote on anything. They said, 'This is what we're going to do.'''

The school has 439 students, 232 of them black. McCrary and a white friend passed out fliers informing students of all races that they would be welcome at the May 9 prom at nearby Fort Valley State University.

The private prom is Friday night 50 miles away in Columbus.

Erin Posey, a white senior, said the entire junior class joined together in hosting last year's prom, but this year's junior class wasn't as unified.

``I think a lot of seniors were disappointed,'' she said. ``Now we have to choose between two groups of friends.''

Posey plans to attend both proms.

``I had some white friends who were not going to the other (inclusive) prom,'' she said. ``I wanted to have time with everybody. I'll have a lot of (black) friends there, too. A lot more of the seniors are going to be at the mixed one.''

After school integration, separate proms were common in the rural South, but Taylor County was among the last to cling to the practice.

Glenda Latimore, a 1972 graduate, was in the first class to have separate black and white proms. Now her 16-year-old son, Gerard, is preparing for prom night.

As the black junior class president, her son helped organize the open-to-all prom. The class also has a white president.

``I would have liked to see it together this year,'' said Latimore, an outfielder on the school's baseball team. ``My class would have, too. It just didn't happen this year.''

Glenda Latimore said relatives in Philadelphia and New Jersey laugh when they read about Taylor County's prom. She said residents here are ``nice and friendly,'' but they still have a problem with proms.

``It seems like it's something secret,'' she said. ``The white people are afraid to speak up against the separation.

``But I went to a black prom and I had fun,'' she said. ``It didn't kill me, so I tell my son, 'Just go to the prom and have fun. Don't come out hating anyone.'''

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Separate-Proms.html

Isn't that sickening? My God, it's 2003, not 1956! I would think that everyone would have resolved these pathetic issues by now, but apparently I was mistaken. I'm so ashamed to be living in the south right now. Thank God it's Florida, though, and not Georgia. What does everyone think of this?

[Mireille]

Sounds like these students aren't familur with the end of segregation. It's sad to hear that people still feel superior when there is no difference except the color of their skin. And it doesn't even sound like they have a good reason to do this. Half the school is black and white. This should not be allowed. Sigh, another reason why Prom is evil.

[lanifiel]

Thats pretty screwy. Nothing more can be said aside from its wrong...

[j_thunders]

This is sick, sad, twisted....help me, I'm running out of adjectives.

[lanifiel]

Wrong. Stick with Wrong, to me it says everything...

[zora_domina]

Man - how utterly amazing and backwards. What amazes me is the subtle inclusion of the fact that they have a black president ... and a white one. Like they can't just have ONE that is elected just like any other situation???

The older generation is obviously influencing this, heavily - encouraging a still-present feeling of animosity among blacks and whites. "they didn't want trouble from interracial relationships" what??? What!!??? The only "trouble" exists when someone thinks that somehow, skin has something to do with humanity...

ARGH!
*rant off...*

-zora

[DragonslayerX]

When I first read this, I was looking for a date, and wondering why someone would post a news article from the 60's. This is sad, but it's more strange than anything else to me...I don't see how this could be allowed to go on.

Wouldn't some groups nationalize this, and put pressure on the county? I mean, the Georgia flag has been changed numerous times in the past several years because it looked similar to the Confederate flag.

So, why hasn't this made national news?

[Morgoth]

Sad.

[rotsiepots]

Originally posted by Sebastian06 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=300070#post300070))
Until then, parents and students organized separate proms for whites and blacks after school officials stopped sponsoring dances, in part because they wanted to avoid problems arising from interracial dating.

Erm, exactly what problems are they talking about? :huh:

Other than being just plain wrong, it's also very sad. It seems that these people are standing still while the rest of the world moves around them. So much for progress and change.

[Crystal]

Wierd!!
I wouldn't have thought that would be allowed to happen, surely America has laws against that kind of racism?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Proms are up to the local school and aren't regulated by state or federal government.

It's disappointing, not to mention weird. It would be interesting to know more about what goes on in that school...do whites and blacks usually get along, or are there little cliques of whites and cliques of blacks?

In any case, while I do find it disappointing, weird, stupid, it's up to that school district/community to decide, which they've apparently done.

[Snowangel]

Definetly backwards. I'm surprised but not completely shocked because I know that racism has not gone away. It's still here, as this clearly demonstrates.

[pasalita]

FYI: I've merged the "Whites-Only" prom into this thread. And, on a related topic, please feel free to also comment in the M-15 Racism (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=924&highlight=Racism) thread.

[zora_domina]

No wonder the page count went up. :)

I am *so* thankful to live near and work in a local neighborhood which has a huge variety of different cultures all lumped in together. I watch groups of kids that are almost always white-black-hispanic-asian-indi and they don't treat each other as though there are any differences. There *are* bright spots out there.

I think an interesting twist is to go to another country where you (no matter who you are) are the "minority" and see how things start to change. My ex lived in Japan for about 2 years and he was well aware of being the only 6'3" tall white man for miles. People treated him very differently until they got to know him.

It's just that in way too many places still, no one allows for that chance to get to know - kids are raised with the ideas of their parents, that they MUST think of their "brown" neighbors as different or inferior, or they MUST believe that the white folks up the road are snobs, or... it goes on and on... Maybe if we took all the kids and let them learn from one another, instead of instilling that kind of pre-disposition to hatred, that we'd get a fantastic future.

-zora

[JamesI]

Maybe if we took all the kids and let them learn from one another, instead of instilling that kind of pre-disposition to hatred, that we'd get a fantastic future.

If a parent says to a child: 'This is right', from an early age, and the child grows up knowing that way of life, that's what they're going to do. But it's a shame. And it's wrong.

[dobbygirl]

Being white and raised in a largely white community, I have never been on the recieving end of discrimination. My parents raised me to never judge anyone by the color of their skin, sexual orientation, religion, etc. My husband however, has recieved some discriminiation. He's half white, half Native American and was raised on the nearby Native American reservation. He's told me stories of how he got treated bad and called names from both whites and fellow tribal members (the worst coming from tribal members).
Here's a funny (and weird story). I had friends who were born and raised in Louisiana. They did not approve of inter-racial relationships at all. But when I started dating my husband, they didn't think of it as an inter-racial relationship because he wasn't black. Even my one friend couldn't understand why she felt that way. She could only guess that because she was raised to believe that whites and blacks shouldn't be together, that any other combination of races didn't really register as being "bad". Does that make any sense.

As for the prom thing: that is just totally sad. And not at all surprising.

[Angora]

I don't know why I'm pawing through old threads today but I am.

The prom story is sad. And strange. I'm suprised that was allowed.

Discrimination is bad, of course. As far as hiring people goes, I would say that it's only discrimination if the quality you're talking about is irrelevant (and that can be hard to decide). But with criminals, it would be discrimination to say "I will not hire anyone who has been convicted of a crime" but not to say "I will not hire someone convicted of stealing to mind the cash" or "I will not hire a convicted child molester to be unsupervised with children".

Certainly you can associate with whoever you want. But if you don't want to work with someone from a specific group, or be in the same social group, or whatever then you're the one that needs to leave. And by that, I don't mean blackmailing eveyrone into choosing between you, I mean just leave.

I remember one story from the news a while ago about an evangelical christian with a printing business. He refused to print flyers advertising a gay pride event. The court (quite rightly) ruled that he wasn't allowed to do that. The evangelists were all up in arms about it. They said it was religious discrimination against them. I disagree. I forget what I was going to illustrate with that, but it's still a nice story. :)

[nightingale]

I was looking for a date on the prom story, as well, until I realized it really wasn't from 40 years ago, it was recent. That is completely wrong, and I might sound ignorant saying this, but I didn't know such things were still going on. I mean I know some people are still bigots, but a school allowing a segregated dance...:td:.

I think discrimination based on race, gender, etc. is bad, and it's screwy when people find loopholes in the law to get around laws against de jure segregation, etc. I also don't think reverse-dicrimination (affirmative action) is completely morally right, either.

[Angora]

This is something that irks me, and there's not really a thread for it, so I thought I'd throw it in the catch-all discrimination thread, since the origional discussion seems to have died down.

The sexism when it comes to dress codes at work and school.

1) Clothing. In some places there are seperate uniforms, one with a skirt one with trousers that people are required to wear based on gender. Girls/women can't get their hands on the trousers, boys/men can't get their hands on the skirts.
2) Makeup. Nothin wrong with wearing it. Something wrong with being selectively required to. I've known women who've been told by their bosses that they don't look "presentable" if they don't wear makeup to work when their male counterparts aren't required to, and I've known men who've been told they can't wear makeup to work when their female counterparts are allowed to.

Clothes and makeup are a decoration. And certainly you can have a dress code at work or school, but if you require some people to/not to decorate themselves a certain way, the same should go for everyone. Otherwise it's just ridiculous.

[Zachary1993]

Self-explanatory really.. What are your views on discrimination, in any form, of anyone, and someone who makes another persons life difficult because of what they are, or their beliefs?
It is wrong especially if it is an adult that discrimates against children because of the colour of their skin. Like say one kid hit another and that kid was punished very badly and if it happened the other way nothing would happen infact the kid that was hit would get punished. Everyone should get punished the same no matter what race they are or what colour they are. There is this one adult that is racist and if a kid of a race he did not like did something wrong the kid would get punished and others can get away with more. Anyone that deals with kids should not be racist towards them because it is not fair. Infact they should be fired for being racist.

[Tiberius]

Okay. First of all I think that we'll need a definition of discrimination. I propose that discrimination is treating people with less respect because of some superficial reason. This reason can be skin colour, religion, language, gender, sexual preference, anything.

Of course it's silly. it's about as intelligent as me saying that the HP movies are absolute rubbish because Daniel Radcliffe has blue eyes and JKR states very specifically that Harry has green eyes. You'd tell me to just grow up, wouldn't you?

So discrimination is just stupid, in my opinion. So what if someone has dark coloured skin? so what if they're a Muslim instead of a Christian? Who cares? All I care about is if they're a decent person. if I'm being mugged, and someone comes and saves me, I'm not going to care if my saviour is black, white, Christian, Muslim, male or female, gay or straight.

But if they are a pedophile, or a mass murderer, i do care about that. A pedophile makes a choice to do something that hurts the community. So does a murderer. So does any criminal. And as long as that criminal continues to offend and harm the community, they are not a decent person, because decent people don't molest kids, they don't kill people, and they don't break into your homes and steal your things. Now, if they have reformed, and no longer offend or harm the community, then that's different. if they have offended, paid the price for their crime and no longer commit that crime (or any others), then they have done their dues. granted, they will have to work to gain my respect (after all, their "decency rating" went down when they commited their crime, so they have so much further to come back up), but once that respect is earned, it's there. But as long as they change, they should not be discriminated against. I judge them for who they are now, not who they were 20 years ago.

What about child molesters though, I hear you ask? Well, that's not something that can be changed easily. For instance, I go for strong tough and intelligent women. That's just who i am. i can't really change that, and I'll always find that sort of person attractive. Likewise, someone who is attracted to little kids can't really change that either. And like I said earlier in this post, I can't respect a criminal unless they change their law-breaking ways. so if i say to a pedophile, "No, you can't work in a kindergarten," is that discrimination? Not in my opinion.

But still, this whole area is very fuzzy. if Hitler had lived, and went on to perform greta humanitarian acts, proclaimed his deepest regret at the Halocaust and worked extremely hard to make this world a better place, would it be wrong not to forgive him for what he did?

So while there are certain areas of this debate that are fuzzy, I think there are certain other areas that are, imho, black and white. Discriminate on the basis of skin colour? That's wrong. Not giving a job that involves working with kids to someone because they're a convicted pedophile? I think that's the right thing to do.

[Rhoderick]

I think anyform of discrimination is wrong. If you do it, do it in a non-harmful manner.

If you don't like foreigners, don't insult them. Just avoid them.

The Sexuality Debate

Beleive it or not, there are people who both oppose homosexual acts & orientation! So, when someone is condemned for bieng a devient or distgustig. Even if you're a virgin non-hetro, it is probably your orientation that's bieng attacked.

Now, it is an outrage that sexuality is discriminated against & everything. It does not harm hetrosexuals who are shopping or working that 2 peopel of the same gender are 'having it on' with eachother on a couch in a house. It does not harm atall, to be attracted to someone of the same gender.

Derrr!

It is illogical to oppose something non-hamrful. Oppose assult? Yes! Homosexuality? & Same sex acts? No!

The Race Debate

Unfortunately, people are labled racist if they say stuff like: "White people are becoming a minority in our country."

That IS NOT RACIST! It is a ethnic composition statement!

Now, it doesn't matter to me if your'e racist or not. If you are, please consider not discriminating socially & employment wise, etc. And don't express racist stuff in my presence.

That's reasonable! I'm sure you'd agree.

Have you noticed how the word racist has changed in meaning?

It used to mean believing your ethnic group to be superior.

Before that, it meant you have predjudice towards certain ethnic peoples.

Natural Discrimination

We humans do discriminate for what we eat, who we talk to. Like, our parents tell us not to talk to strangers. I do if I'm in a merry mood & the 'air' of the person is not sinister.

So, I do not agree with treating people different, including barring or isolating, because of their views or acts.

Phedophilia

I don't think convicted & released phedophiles should be allowed to work in places with children. Like schools & kindergardens, etc.

The same as I wouldn't want a murderer in my house, unless they became a Buddhist or something & really committed themselves to living a virtious life.

[Arwen_elf]

Iam an Indian.
so, i can't bare to imagine what will
happen when i move into united states.
and my skin is NOT dark. mark my words.
I have a wheatish complexion.all the Indians do.

[Jill]

I don't agree in any form of discrimination against anything or anyone. Discrimination only hurts those it is done to and therefore in my eyes is an un justified act or excuse used to put someone or something down. We all live on this same planet and therefore should respect everything and everyone who lives on it and not discriminate.

The prom thing is just well sad.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

Beleive it or not, there are people who both oppose homosexual acts & orientation! So, when someone is condemned for bieng a devient or distgustig. Even if you're a virgin non-hetro, it is probably your orientation that's bieng attacked.

Actually, most people who are against homosexuality believe that because the Bible says the actions, not the orientation is an abomination. So if you're a virgin non-hetro, almost no one would have a problem. If you're a non-virgin non-hetro, some people would have a problem. Is there something wrong with that? I think so, but it's all about religion and is a much more complicated topic than there is time to talk about.

[star22]

I hate discrimination. There is still so much of it against woman. What it is has changed, but not the fact that it is there. Woman can now hold jobs, but we are seen as sex objects. Magazines like Playboy tell men that it is okay just to want our bodies and to look at them without looking at us. Then there is the steriotype that has been around forever. The one that says that women are meant to take care of the home, even if they have a job. It is our job to care for housecleaning, cooking, and kids, even if we hate these things. Men can't do it. It is not manly enought.

[Tiberius]

Racism can be sumed up in one sentence. "That car goes faster because it's red"

it all makes about the same sense....

BTW, Happy new year everyone. Have a good one.

[DrummerboyDT]

I think racism is totally wrong as obviously everyone should agree with me. Not only is it harsh and mean, being racist is being close-minded. I have many friends from different countries. I think having friends of people with many cultures makes you more interesting of a person.

[mina]

I hate discrimination. There is still so much of it against woman. What it is has changed, but not the fact that it is there. Woman can now hold jobs, but we are seen as sex objects. Magazines like Playboy tell men that it is okay just to want our bodies and to look at them without looking at us. Then there is the steriotype that has been around forever. The one that says that women are meant to take care of the home, even if they have a job. It is our job to care for housecleaning, cooking, and kids, even if we hate these things. Men can't do it. It is not manly enought.

You said it. Being an animator (definately a mostly male-dominated field) I am up against those stereotypes often. Alot of men still seem to be threatened by women who can compete in the workplace along side them.

If you go on computer animation websites and look at the character designs a whole lot of them are the male fantasy "perfect girlfriend" (meaning tons of Lara Croft-esque, phsyically impossible, half- naked women). Actually look at the video game industry, how many games have strong female characters that are not rip-offs of a popular male character (examples: Johanna Dark=James Bond, Lara Croft=Indiana Jones). In alot of games we still have the dashing young hero save the helpless woman.

Yes, it is getting better, but there is still much work to be done...on all aspects of discrimination. Ok, I should stop ranting now...

[DrummerboyDT]

I hate it for you women. I think that an animation company needs women because women are very creative, imaginative, and they come up with really good stories. They are also great artists. I think that discrimination in the workplace must stop. There are so many creative people out there who get an unlucky break. If I own an animation, you can garuntee there will be people like mina working there because compies need more creative, imaginative, original qualified people, no matter what their race or gender they are.

[Kaonashi]

I've noticed that Pixar seems to have an overabundance of men...but they also have a great deal of women too, and they are a kick-butt company to work for. I remember having to do an annual report design for my print design class, and all the companies on my list were completely nasty when I called and asked them for a copy of their annual reports, even after i explained what I was doing. Pixar was last on my list, adn when I called them, I spoke with a rather cheery woman in PR who was like "Sure! We'll help you out!" They sent me this HUGE package Fed Ex 2 days later that not only had the annual report in it, but also all this info that they give their shareholders as well as a tape of shorts. They even wrote me a short note telling me good luck with my project! I will always remember that....

There's a lot of independents that are also more open to women as well. With more and more women in the animation field, things will change, slowly but surely.

[Mary Jane]

I'm reeling from that post about separate proms. Like a previous poster, I thought it must be from the 60s. I am shocked and horrified! Living in California (specifically the bay area,) ... well I thought this was the kind of thing that only happened in 3rd world countries controlled by racist regimes.

Don't get me wrong, I KNOW discrimination exists in the USA. I have visited a couple of southern states (not even deep south, mind you) and it is very much there, and to someone who did not see a whole lot of it growing up it seemed very much in my face.

So to get to the point of this thread - my view of discrimination - it is wrong wrong wrong!

[LumosSoleil]

Well, we've all been discriminated one form or another. I for one, as a Vietnamese-American, have been discriminated countless times that I find it hard to tell if people are being intentional or unintentional about it. But I have to say, America is a great place and people get accepted here more than they do anywhere else, well and other countries with a democracy.
I seriously don't take anything to the heart anymore simply because people of my generation are pretty mature and open to different cultures and diversity. Nowadays people get discriminated more for their beliefs than their appearance.

[thinkpink38]

Do I believe in discrimination, ofcourse not, I dont believe in discrimination of any kind. Espesially when it comes to dealing with certian beliefs, or different cultures. As a matter of fact, I was discriminated against yesterday, I was driving home yesterday from school and this psycho person comes and actually drives to my lane, and tries to push me off the road! And so I began slowing down, (i amlost stopped in the middle of the street) he, ofcourse, was driving fast, so instead of nearly hitting my car, he drove infront of me yelling "dame Arab", I was like, OMG, is he serious!! He's trying to kill a 16 year old girl, because she is an Arab?! And he looked like he was around 40, which is down right disturbing. I mean, the people at school have never said anyhitng to me, infact they are very understanding, and reasonable. And, honestly I've never had anything said to me before, but, I geuss there are people like that, and reasonable people. Its amazing how far a person will go to please themselves, I mean what good does raming a 16 year older while she's driving going to do? Unfortunately there are people in this world that are just so selfish they loose their sense of reality, which is ridiculus.
It's funny because, I was watching Disney channel yeasterday, and Proud Faimly was on, it was aslo about discrimination, a 10 year older understands its wrong to discriminate, but a 40 year older cant. (someone needs to watch Proud Faimly, he might learn something new from it)

[hesdead-dealwithit]

I dont believe in discrimination of any kind.
Well, that's a bad way to go about in the world. Blind and deaf people must be discriminated against when it comes to hiring airline pilots. People bad at basketball must be discriminated against when it comes to hiring basketball players. And so on. It's the discrimination about a quality that is not necessary in the job or other area that is wrong.

[thinkpink38]

Well, that's a bad way to go about in the world. Blind and deaf people must be discriminated against when it comes to hiring airline pilots. People bad at basketball must be discriminated against when it comes to hiring basketball players. And so on. It's the discrimination about a quality that is not necessary in the job or other area that is wrong.


I didnt mean it literaly like that, Im just emphasizing on the outlook of discrimination when dealing with racial differences, and ones beliefs.

"and someone who makes another persons life difficult because of what they are, or their beliefs?"

I was answering to that part of the question. I agree with you though.

[Kaonashi]

Well, that's a bad way to go about in the world. Blind and deaf people must be discriminated against when it comes to hiring airline pilots. People bad at basketball must be discriminated against when it comes to hiring basketball players. And so on. It's the discrimination about a quality that is not necessary in the job or other area that is wrong.

That's not discrimination because obviously blind people can't fly planes and talent comes into play when you are picking someone for a basketball team. That's realizing that those people can't do that paticular type of job, period. Now if that deaf person was 6'6 and one heck of a basketball player and top scorer through HS and college, and someone said that they weren't going to hire them just because they were deaf (even though there is evidence to the contrary that he does his job well) THAT would be discriminatory.

[IrmoPimp]

I'm just gonna jump into the fray here.

Just b/c it is "discrimination" does not mean it is bad. Maybe a coach or whoever wouldn't want to hire the deaf man b/c they didn't feel like taking on that extra responsiblity of coaching in a different method. Does that mean the coach is a "bad" person?

[OrbitingElle]

I had this posted in another thread, but I think it fits better here. I lost the link to where I got this story so I'm not sure how much of it to believe. Has anyone else heard anything of this? If it's true, can you believe that this is actually happening?

Bush Allows Gays to Be Fired for Being Gay

Despite President Bush's pledge that homosexuals "ought to have the same rights" as all other people, his Administration this week ruled that homosexuals can now be fired from the federal workforce because of their sexual orientation.

According to the Federal Times, the president's appointee at the Office of Special Counsel ruled that federal employees will now "have no recourse if they are fired or demoted simply for being gay." While the Bush Administration says it is legally prohibited from firing a person for their conduct, they have the legal right to fire or demote someone based on their sexual orientation. To carry out the directive, the White House has begun removing information from government websites about sexual orientation discrimination in the workplace.

Not only does the new directive contradict the president's own promise to treat homosexuals as equals under the law, but it also contradicts what the Administration told Congress. As noted in a bipartisan letter from four Senators to the Administration, "During the confirmation process [of the president's appointee], you assured us that you were committed to protecting federal employees against unlawful discrimination related to their sexual orientation."

=========
edit: here are some related links
http://www.misleader.org/daily_mislead/Read.asp?fn=df03232004.html
http://federaltimes.com/index.php?S=2727185
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A49392-2004Feb17&notFound=true
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A62844-2004Feb22&notFound=true

[Kaonashi]

I saw that on th eother thread, and man, that is WILD! Bush has gone from "trrating homesexuals as equals under the law" to "hey, it's okay if people fire you for being gay!" I'm sure the Gay Republican groups are going to have a field day with this one...

[Nick]

"Don't tolerate intolerance!!"

sums up my position nicely.

[mirandam]

No one should have to put up with being discriminated against. Unfortunately this is something that will never change. This world is full of people who have their own thoughts and belief of the way things should be. Therefore, discrimination fair or not will always continue. I believe that discrimination is basically due to great ignorance of others. Most people have a general dislike for certain things in people, criminals, bums, etc. does this kind make us wrong or just cautious for ourselves and can this mean that I discriminate against them because of who they are?
As some have said above, I have to agree that of course a blind person can not fly a plane, that is logic, there is no discrimination there. I am sure that there a 1000's of ways to explain wether it is non discrimination or discrimination.

[OrbitingElle]

I saw that on th eother thread, and man, that is WILD! Bush has gone from "trrating homesexuals as equals under the law" to "hey, it's okay if people fire you for being gay!" I'm sure the Gay Republican groups are going to have a field day with this one...

It just seems to me like the snowball effect. His gay marriage ban isn't moving forward fast enough, so he has to punish the gays in some other way. If he can't discriminate in one way, he'll do it in another.

Bush WANTS to discriminate, even when it doesn't make sense to do so. This is evident in the recent scandal that has popped up with what his former security-advisor-type-guy said in an interview. (I promise to find a link somewhere, as I am heavily paraphrasing.) Immediately after 9-11, Bush wanted to go after Iraq. It was so far fetched at the time that the security advisor thought Bush was joking when he suggested it. They have been searching for a reason to attack ever since, and finally found one with the supposed WMD search.

==============
Edit/update: It was former white house security expert Richard Clarke who thought Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was joking about Iraq. Here's a piece of the story and a link to where I got it:

(Clarke) said Bush appeared obsessed with the idea of blaming former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

"See if Saddam did this. See if he''s linked in any way,"
Clarke quotes Bush as saying in the book.

"The entire conversation left me in absolutely no doubt that George Bush wanted me to come back with a report that said Iraq did this," he added.

He also told the US broadcaster CBS that the day after the 11 September attacks, Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld called for retaliatory strikes on Iraq, even though al-Qaeda was based in Afghanistan.

"Rumsfeld said there aren't any good targets in Afghanistan," he said. "And there are lots of good targets in Iraq." I said: ''Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with it."

He said he was so taken aback by the comments, he initially thought Rumsfeld was joking

http://www.bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate=2004-03-24&hidType=RIN&hidRecord=0000000000000000004349

[Tane]

It is just double standards that Bush is showing us and hence you cannot trust what he says in relation to anything he tells the people. Bush is twisting the gay rights to suit his needs. Bush does not want to look as though he is discriminating at this present moment of time so he gives with one hand and takes with the other. That way Bush can discriminate gays without being obvious.

[Bhodi]

It just seems to me like the snowball effect. His gay marriage ban isn't moving forward fast enough, so he has to punish the gays in some other way. If he can't discriminate in one way, he'll do it in another.

Bush WANTS to discriminate, even when it doesn't make sense to do so. This is evident in the recent scandal that has popped up with what his former security-advisor-type-guy said in an interview. (I promise to find a link somewhere, as I am heavily paraphrasing.) Immediately after 9-11, Bush wanted to go after Iraq. It was so far fetched at the time that the security advisor thought Bush was joking when he suggested it. They have been searching for a reason to attack ever since, and finally found one with the supposed WMD search.

==============
Edit/update: It was former white house security expert Richard Clarke who thought Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was joking about Iraq. Here's a piece of the story and a link to where I got it:

(Clarke) said Bush appeared obsessed with the idea of blaming former Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein.

"See if Saddam did this. See if he''s linked in any way,"
Clarke quotes Bush as saying in the book.

"The entire conversation left me in absolutely no doubt that George Bush wanted me to come back with a report that said Iraq did this," he added.

He also told the US broadcaster CBS that the day after the 11 September attacks, Secretary of Defence Donald Rumsfeld called for retaliatory strikes on Iraq, even though al-Qaeda was based in Afghanistan.

"Rumsfeld said there aren't any good targets in Afghanistan," he said. "And there are lots of good targets in Iraq." I said: ''Well, there are lots of good targets in lots of places, but Iraq had nothing to do with it."

He said he was so taken aback by the comments, he initially thought Rumsfeld was joking

http://www.bangladesh-web.com/view.php?hidDate=2004-03-24&hidType=RIN&hidRecord=0000000000000000004349

Absolutely correct on the gay issue... Bush seemed satisfied to have the support of the Log Cabin Republicans during the 2000 Campaign, yet he seeks a Constitutional Amendment to annul gay marriages... It's going to be difficult to figure out a way to win this constituency back [I'd say it's nigh impossible -- there's just nothing like alienating a group by threatening to Constitutionally define them as second-class citizens]...

Regarding Richard Clarke and his claims... Unfortunately, this is a "he said/he said" situation... I'm always confused in situations like these why people are so ready and willing to trust everything that an individual like Clarke says as gospel, simply because his accusations represent an attack on the opposition party... We should all be as skeptical of what Clarke is saying as we are of what Bush, Rumsfeld, or anyone else in the situation is saying (and, perhaps more so, given the fact that Clarke has a brand new book out, thus all of this controversy is the perfect marketing strategy to send sales through the roof)...

[OrbitingElle]

Regarding Richard Clarke and his claims... Unfortunately, this is a "he said/he said" situation... I'm always confused in situations like these why people are so ready and willing to trust everything that an individual like Clarke says as gospel, simply because his accusations represent an attack on the opposition party... We should all be as skeptical of what Clarke is saying as we are of what Bush, Rumsfeld, or anyone else in the situation is saying (and, perhaps more so, given the fact that Clarke has a brand new book out, thus all of this controversy is the perfect marketing strategy to send sales through the roof)...

True, there are always two sides to every story. The thing that got me on the issue was this: The Bush administration is saying that there is "no proof" that these conversations ever happened. Well DUH! What proof does any single person ever have that they said a certain thing? Unless we have a camera, microphone, or court reporter with us at all time, proof is a silly concept. I would be more willing to believe their defense if they simply said, "That's not how it went, here is our version." But saying his statements are untrue based solely on the lack of proof seems like the backwards logic of a guilty party.

[Tane]

True, there are always two sides to every story. The thing that got me on the issue was this: The Bush administration is saying that there is "no proof" that these conversations ever happened. Well DUH! What proof does any single person ever have that they said a certain thing? Unless we have a camera, microphone, or court reporter with us at all time, proof is a silly concept. I would be more willing to believe their defense if they simply said, "That's not how it went, here is our version." But saying his statements are untrue based solely on the lack of proof seems like the backwards logic of a guilty party.

Yes I have to agree with you or perhaps it was messages to the secret service to destroy any evidence that they might have obtain while bugging him.

Sorry I just could not resist that.

On a more serious note, your are innocent until proven guilty and I think that might have been what Bush was trying to get across, the fact that there is no evidence makes it a stalemate situation. Bush knows that with no proof those statements are meaningless because he has the law on his side. My personal belief is that he loves spreading out double standards to protect his own interests.

[XxIslandgirlxX]

No positive thoughts come to mind. I think hate crimes, I think Nazis, and the KKK. It's all negative. I believe we are people, not colors.

[star22]

You know, I am quick to notice steriotypes against women and slow to notice them when they are against men. However, lately I have been noticing this kind as well.

For instance, girls can now do "manly" things like sports, but guys are looked down on for "girly" things like ballet, being artistic, or cooking/cleaning/childcare stuff. Sorry, but those steriotypes just don't work. There is nothing that is more "manly" or "womanly" than anything else. Yes, there are differences, but not that kind.

Also, there are the girls who want to be treated as equals and then still expect guys to pay/open doors/buy them flowers when they don't buy anything. To me this seems a little backwards. I always try to open doors if I can. When I go out with someone I buy him chocolate or something. Besides, some girls, like me, do not even like flowers.

Again, it is this whole idea of things being feminine and masculine. Most of these things are actually cultural steriotypes and not genetic differences. Anyways, just my thoughts.

[hermy_weasley2]

Self-explanatory really.. What are your views on discrimination, in any form, of anyone, and someone who makes another persons life difficult because of what they are, or their beliefs?

Well, it's easy enough to say "discrimination is wrong" and leave it at that, but this isn't an easy question. Discrimination can take many forms and be caused by many different things. Many groups of people can be discriminated against. All I'll say is we do have to tolerate intolerance. It's not pretty and pleasant and happy, but it's true.



Also, there are the girls who want to be treated as equals and then still expect guys to pay/open doors/buy them flowers when they don't buy anything. To me this seems a little backwards. I always try to open doors if I can. When I go out with someone I buy him chocolate or something. Besides, some girls, like me, do not even like flowers.

I have no problem with opening my own doors, but if he wants to open the door, he can. I won't complain about that either.

Don't get me wrong, I KNOW discrimination exists in the USA. I have visited a couple of southern states (not even deep south, mind you) and it is very much there, and to someone who did not see a whole lot of it growing up it seemed very much in my face.

Hmm...As a deep southerner, I'd have to say that there is discrimination here. I don't think it's any more here than anywhere else, but in the past it was. It's dying out more and more now. The older people here are still discrimanatory, but that's how they were raised.

[HollywoodBob]

Descrimination literally means the ability to tell things apart, why is that a bad thing. It's racism and sexism that are bad. I'm of the mind that when I see a person, I don't see what race they are, or what sex they are. To me people are just that, we're a collection of organs, some may differ from others but that doesn't make us any less of a person.

And Star22, I open doors for everyone, woman or man, and I let my fiance pay anytime she wants. :)

-HollywoodBob

[Midnightsfire]

I frankly admit I selectively discriminate in regards to gender. I think the differences in gender are very important, I certainly don't want to go out with a "macho woman," especially if she happens to have more machismo than me! (Gods forfend!)

Before I get leaped upon, a quick question: When a ship begins to sink, does the idea of women and children first still apply when getting rescued? It is discrimnation of a sort, but one that is still currently acceptable to me.

[~oSiRiS~]

Self-explanatory really.. What are your views on discrimination, in any form, of anyone, and someone who makes another persons life difficult because of what they are, or their beliefs?

The thing I dislike the most are the two faced people. My sister is about to marry a man who has lived here for over 15 years now. He grew up here and went to school here. Though he was born in Lebinon(sp?). He is a great guy, nice.... ect. Now my family to his face wont say a bad thing about him. Get them talking away from him and hes nothing but a *insert any racist comment about middle eastern people here*. This makes me so angry. I despise this type of descrimination. I understand people that hate descriminate someone(though I do not agree I can understand) What I do not understand is the ones that to someones face treat that person as an equal then behind thier back "spit in thier face".

Now on driscrimination of woman. I grew up hearing how you should "properly" treat a lady from my mother and grand mother. They grew up in an era that opening a door for a lady ... ect was basically manditory. Now I do not even think about these things, I just do them naturally. I dont care if a woman expects me to do these things. I do then out of habit because thats how I was raised. I do believe there are double standards for woman and there should be for most things. For example, this onne time I was walking out of a resturant by myself. There was a couple having a row in the parking lot. Next thing I knew the guy raised his hand and gave her a vicious(sp?) backhand. Now I dont care if she hit him first or even if she deserved it(which she probably did). He in my opinion was wrong from what he did. So I walked over layed him out in one shot and told him how I felt, but that isnt important. I feel double standards like a guy should not hit a lady are good.
As for the guy should always pay for the lady when they go out, I dont care if I am going out on a date with a female or out with the guys. If I invite them I expect to pay for them. I dont care if she, or anyone for that matter, I invite to go out with me wants to pay. I wont give them the chance to. Money isnt important as people make it out to be and I can always get more. I go out with people to enjoy thier company. If that means I always have to pay for them, its money well spent in my opinion.
These types of double standards I dont feel to be discrimitory at all. When you look at them, yes they are, but its like the house elfs. I am happy to pay for a lady every time we go out or to open her door for her.

On the woman and children first. Yes I do think that should still appy. Mainly for the childrens sake. They have a whole life waiting for them. Which will be better than mine would be if I lived. So they should have the right to live that life. As for the woman, I feel a child, in most cases, is better off being raised by thier mother than thier dad. So they should be the ones to go with thier child to raise them. In all honesty if that situation arose. I would help my family on a life boat. Then I would make my own raft out of anything I could get my hands onto. Then tie it to the life boat my family was on. But maybe thats the boy scount in me. I wouldnt stand there and die like the people in Titanic, nor would I try and force my way onto a life boat. I would make sure my family was safe first then I would figure out how to save myself. Which is how I feel it should be

[Tane]

I think it is wrong to discriminate when it affects the person so much that they are forced to change there life to suit those who single them out. I think when people state that someone’s opinion does not count because they are different to me is form discrimination. Putting labels on people can be very dangerous due to the person adopting that label even if it does not necessary reflect that persons true image, they eventually believe they are what people say they are regardless of whether or not those people know them.

I try and avoid labeling people as I find the label an excuse to ignore what the real problem is and put the blame of a lack of understanding on the one we tend to label. Peoples skin colour has and still is used as a means of blame for things that really have nothing to do with those races involved.

As for the Titanic situation, men think about saving the women and children due to an instinct to maintain the species line when in danger. Men see themselves as protectors to the opposite sex.

[Adalbert Waffling]

I did a search, and could not find anything. I am well aware of Discrimination...Your Views? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=6988&highlight=racism) and Racism (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=924&highlight=racism).

The purpose of this thread is to ask the question: Do racist accusations promote racism? Yes, in my opinion.*EDIT* There still is racism, but many times the accusations of racism are meant to gain money, or justify something. Im not saying that there is not racism, far from it. I live in the southern states, and racism abounds. But hardly ever to the point where someone loses their jobs. What I'm trying to ask if, when someone is wrongly accused of racism, does this accusation itself promote racism. I can't tell you how many people have said they don't want to work with me in school because I'm a white person. I don't judge someone until I've met them. Are there african americans collecting welfare and in gangs? Yes. But there are also white people, hispanic people, and many other people who do that.

Do you think that unfounded rcist accusations are a problem, or am I just yammering with no point?



*reason for Edit.* I didn't think I got across clearly what I was trying to say in the first edition of this thread. I never meant to say there aren't times when racism denies a person an oppurtunity. It happens. But when someone wrongly accuses you of being racist, when they had no grounds to do so, then that in itself is racist.

[CicadaInvasion]

I agree. People place far too much emphasis on race. People of all races use it as an excuse. You may like a new book out, debating whether race truly exists.

[Queen of Wise]

Honestly now, what is race but a different skin color or culture? I for one hate when people make racist comments about others. It's not only pointless, but it is extremely disrespectful.

[Ana-Magus]

I guess I'm a little confused as to what you mean by "racist accusation" - which I think is different from making a "racist comment" could you clarify?

[red_fairy]

By reacist accusations, are you saying like where someone doesn't get a job, and says they don't get it because the boss was a different race?

[Masterfroggy]

Do you think that unfounded rcist accusations are a problem, or am I just yammering with no point?

who decides what is unfounded, is it the person saying that they were poorly treated or the rest of society choosing to ignore the problem


I personally think that unless you are from a race that regularly suffers from racial abuse and harassment it is very easy to think that Racism is a thing of the past, but if it is something you experience day after day you will know that it is as common today as it was a hundred or two hundred years ago,
My personal experience tell me that racism is given to children with their mothers milk, yes it is rarely talked about in polite company, but it happens all the time,

I have had a personal and close friend attacked and hospitalised, by two men who didn’t like the way he (as an Indian born in Bristol) walked, they told the police (just before they were released without charge) he walked as if he owned the pavement,

If it was just an isolated case I would put it down to random chance, but it happens to my friends and his friends almost daily, this time last year on my home from work I was repeatedly stopped by the same policemen 15 times in three weeks just because the area I was passing through was full of expensive houses and not the sort of area “my sort” would ever be able to afford, it mattered nothing that I drove through that area just because it was on my way home.

In my daughters school a 5 year old boy was asked not to wear his traditional dress for the “festival of light” but it was fine for another boy to wear a BNP tee shirt to class

Racism is alive and well and unless people learn about it in their normal day to day life, they will understandably think that it is either a myth or think it has vanished along with the KKK and the Nazi and neo-nazis

[ComicBookWorm]

[B]Racism is alive and well and unless people learn about it in their normal day to day life, they will understandably think that it is either a myth or think it has vanished along with the KKK and the Nazi and neo-nazis
The KKK isn't gone nor are the neo-nazis. They have just morphed into other hate groups like Christian Identity groups which have nothing to do with religion and are really just white supremacy groups. Same goes for the neo-nazis who have also morphed into other white supremacy groups and militias. And in many cases the former KKK members and neo-nazins are in the same groups now.

[Ana-Magus]

I have an example of what I think racist accusation is:

I was once the recruiter and employee supervisor for about 200 employee who worked in a warehouse. This was in a major US city so I had a very diverse group of employees.

I once had to fire an employee for violating the attendance policy. That employee (who happened to be African American) told me that I fired him because I was a racist..... regardless of the fact that he was terminated for poor attendance.

[Dedalus Diggle]

I have an example of what I think racist accusation is:

I was once the recruiter and employee supervisor for about 200 employee who worked in a warehouse. This was in a major US city so I had a very diverse group of employees.

I once had to fire an employee for violating the attendance policy. That employee (who happened to be African American) told me that I fired him because I was a racist..... regardless of the fact that he was terminated for poor attendance.
Ahh, but you don't understand - it's like sexual harassment, it matters not what your intention or thoughts were, nor what the facts were, just that someone privileged to make the accusation chose to make it. Thus it is so.

[Ana-Magus]

Ahh, but you don't understand - it's like sexual harassment, it matters not what your intention or thoughts were, nor what the facts were, just that someone privileged to make the accusation chose to make it. Thus it is so.

I was doing my job - I was following policy. The attendance policy is very simple to follow.... how can you compare it sexual harrassment? I'm not following

[Dedalus Diggle]

I was doing my job - I was following policy. The attendance policy is very simple to follow.... how can you compare it sexual harrassment? I'm not following
I was being sarcastic - while both racial discrimination and sexual harassment exist, the accusation is given credibility independent of the facts. The claimed perception of the intention is usually considered conclusive proof of guilt. Of course it is utter garbage, but it is supported vigorously by certain factions.

[Masterfroggy]

The KKK isn't gone nor are the neo-nazis. They have just morphed into other hate groups like Christian Identity groups which have nothing to do with religion and are really just white supremacy groups. Same goes for the neo-nazis who have also morphed into other white supremacy groups and militias. And in many cases the former KKK members and neo-nazins are in the same groups now.

Sorry that is my English sense of humour, I was being ironic, people choose to think that just because there are no cross burning or hangings in there own back yard it means the problem has gone away

Ahh, but you don't understand - it's like sexual harassment, it matters not what your intention or thoughts were, nor what the facts were, just that someone privileged to make the accusation chose to make it. Thus it is so.

Very few people use the Race card unless it is true, as the problems that go with it are vast and all encompassing. After the fortieth time you have been refused a job because of your race, you either accept it or rant or rave about it, soon after the eightieth you just choose to ignore it, on a rare occasion a person will say they have lost their job because of race when it is not true, but the same can be said about people who don’t get a job complaining that the coloured person got the job because Employers have to employ 3% minorities by law.

Swings and roundabouts

[ComicBookWorm]

Ahh, but you don't understand - it's like sexual harassment, it matters not what your intention or thoughts were, nor what the facts were, just that someone privileged to make the accusation chose to make it. Thus it is so.
As someone who has not only been the subject of sexual harrassment on multiple occasions, but also been repeatedly subjected to sexual discrimination (try being the only woman in a technical department some time), I have to take exception to these comments. The last manager I worked for thought that women could not be good managers or handle the more complex areas of technology. He even made these same comments about one of the most technically brilliant women I have ever seen, and also even said it about our CIO (chief information officer) who went on to be CIO at a huge company.

I had a teacher in college grab both my breast while I was working at my desk quietly. When I complained they said he does that all time, like it was ok. I had a manager slide his hand up my thigh while he was seated next to me, and he also came up behind me and pressed his body into me (I was fired when I complained--they said my contract didn't need to be extended, even though three days earlier they had told me my contract was extended). I had a client continually slide his hand down my back, and hold my shoulder while he was standing over me while I was seated.

I had another manager who would always rub against me when he passed me in the hall (even though there was a lot of room to pass by without touching me). He would also grab my knee constantly while driving me somewhere in his car (even though I sat as far over as I could from him and tried to shift my knees away from him so he wouldn't do it). His hand would "somehow" miss the shifter. Somehow none of my other male co-workers needed to rub against me in the hallway.

I was controller of a manufacturing company, and when a saleman asked me to make the coffee, I very politely pointed out that if I had emptied the pot I would have made the coffee, but that I would never think to ask another employee to make it for me. I was fired a few days later--they said they didn't really need a controller after all.

And I've worked with countless men who somehow felt like they needed to put their arms over my shoulder, or slide their hand on my arm.

I keep perspective on these things because recently when a friend of mine complained that when a co-worker told her she looked pretty that she was being sexually harassed, I said ,"No, he was hitting on you". If he persists after you tell him to stop that's harrassment.

There is constant and real sexual harassment. And I know that for a fact because after I gained a lot of weight all of these types of physical contacts I have described stopped. No one laid a hand on me to even briefly touched me once I was fat.

[~Tonks~]

It's also pretty bad when you meet anyone (whether they're part of the minority or majority) who, upon first interaction with you, automatically assumes you're going to discriminate against them, making things far more complicated than they have to be. Self-inflicted racism is as much, if not in some ways even more frustrating, than other people choosing to act racist toward you.

Once I had to be partners with a girl in one of my business classes on a major project. I'm not going to say what ethnicity she was because it really doesn't matter, but every time I tried to politely make a suggestion or ask her about something she was doing, even if it was just so I would know where I had to be in the effort, she would ask me if I doubted her ability to handle things or make the right decisions because of her ethnicity. Finally it got to me so bad I told her I didn't give a fiddly fudge about her ethnicity and that she was being just as racist as she was accusing me of being in assuming that I would judge her and deem her incapable of doing a good job based on her ethnicity because I'm white. It shut her up and she never said another word. Bad past experiences or not, you're never going to make anything better by making assumptions, you know? It ended up okay, but it was one of the worst experiences I've ever had working with anyone.

[Ana-Magus]

...Employers have to employ 3% minorities by law.

What law is this?

[ComicBookWorm]

Sorry that is my English sense of humour, I was being ironic, people choose to think that just because there are no cross burning or hangings in there own back yard it means the problem has gone away


Sorry Froggy I should have known that. I love the dry British wit. No one can deadpan a joke better than the Brits.

[SGosling]

What law is this?

Froggy won’t mind me answering this (I hope)

The Race relations act in the UK states that where possible the work force should reflect the ethnic make up of the community in which it is based, people think that the 3% is enshrined in law, but that 3% is a hangover from the old mental health act which tried to get employers to employ the disabled and people who have mental health issues

[MugglyBrit]

I did a search, and could not find anything. I am well aware of Discrimination...Your Views? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=6988&highlight=racism) and Racism (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=924&highlight=racism).

The purpose of this thread is to ask the question: Do racist accusations promote racism? Yes, in my opinion. There still is racism, but there are hardly any times at all where an African American is wrongly accused and not afforded a fair trial.

Do you think that unfounded rcist accusations are a problem, or am I just yammering with no point?


Um... I understand where you are coming from with this question. You are saying that it seems that people of color... particularly African Americans seem to constantly complain about injustices that you yourself cannot see.

Well... the fact is that there are many instances of African Americans who are wrongly accused and not afforded a fair trial. "Fair" is a tricky word to use... So... in that statement alone... I'm not sure where you are getting your facts...

Also... just because you don't register something in your day to day life doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. You may not be particularly placed in your life to see the injustices done to black people on a consistant basis... this is especially true if you are not black... how would you know what injustices are done to black people and whether or not they get a fair trial? Do you expect the news to tell you?

Also... I don't really understand how unfounded accusations of racism would promote racism. This would only be the case for people who don't really have much contact with people of other races to begin with. Someone who would hear about an unfounded accuation of racism or expierience an accusation of racism (be accused of being racist for some reason when they feel that it isn't true) and then make a generalization about all the members of that race and feel that that race is unequal to other races in some way is just as ignorant as a person who learned racism from their parents.

When I hear about unwarrented accusations of racism (a very tricky thing to decide because often it is subjective decision) I don't make any assumptions aobut members of that race... I just make an assumption about that particular person...

Hope this post makes sense...

But in areas of racism... don't be so hasty to say that accusations are overblown or unwarranted from the outside of a situation looking in... because there is really no way to know... Also... even from the inside you don't know where the person making the accusations is coming from... they may have had so many horrible experiences with racism that they are wary and distrustful of people of another race... especially white toward black... so the accusation may come from a history of bad experience and not just... a desire to play the "race card." :)

[Chrysalis]

True, true. That is, if the first post claims that complaining about racism promotes racism. Just because blacks and other people of colour got equal rights, doesn't mean there isn't any racism at all. Just because a white person cannot see it doesn't mean it's not there. What may seem very innocent to you, will often correctly be perceived as highly discriminatory by someone of colour. Our senses are fine tuned to catch any kind of offensive remark, because of years of put downs and humiliations. White people never had to go through this so they wouldn't know.

Of course everytime I meet a new person I assume they are good.:)

And of course there is discrimination between people of colour. In India fair skin is preferred by many people. It's really sick.

[Ana-Magus]

Agreed with MugglyBrit & Savoy Truffle.

The example I gave was merely an experience I had that best explained my interpretation of the question.

To complete the story: I had a candid conversation with this person and asked if he truly believed that I was racist. He admitted that he jumped to conclusions out of frustration - he has been terminated in the past because of race.

Could I have really judged him for feeling that way? - no, I couldn't. Could I have given him his job back because I understood his frustration? - No, I couldn't - policy is policy.

I took the time to see his point of view... and he appreciated the time I took to listen, because he believed I didn't have to.

[Pilum]

If I've understood this properly, I think I would *hesitantly* agree.

We had the somewhat unedifying spectacle over here that, post-MacPherson (the report into the investigation of the death of a black lad, Stephen Lawrence) which coined the phrase 'institutionally racist' and applied it to the Met, suddenly every public body (or so it seemed) was almost falling over itself to declare that it, too, was 'institutionally racist'. This was followed by the new labelling of 'unconscious racism'.

I am convinced that if you call a person something long enough, they'll go one of two ways - either simon-pure or they'll give in and act in the way you're accusing them of. At the very least all the almost-casual accusations can erode sympathy if one belongs to the group attacked.

[Dedalus Diggle]

Comicbookworm, I just wanted to clarify what I said, as your reply seemed to take it that I was saying neither sexual or racial misbehavior occurs. However, I said the very opposite. But there are also a fair number of incidents of accusations being leveled without foundation. It can be like Jerry Seinfeld's Uncle Leo on the Seinfeld show raging that anti-semitism is involved whenever somebody did something that affected him negatively. No one (well, no one sane) would say that there are not actual anti-jewish people out there, but that is not the explanation to every bad thing that happens in life.

For some people the constane search for racism/sexism/sizism/ etc. becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've been accused of being racist for not holding a door for someone (when I didn't even know the race of the person behind me because I hadn't looked) and sexist for holding the door (even when the woman I held it for had her arms too full to open it herself). Those are no big deal, you just shrug them off, knowing that those people are making their own lives more miserable tha need be. But it can go much further. I've seen people lose jobs over accusations of things that I saw first hand either did not happen or were neither race- nor sex- based.

Back to the topic, I'm not sure if false accusations actaully foster racism, but they do make people more race-conscious, and often in an unhealthy way. Everyone needs to look at their own attitudes to try to root out the race-based decisions-making - whether that is in being irrationally discriminatory or in assuming everyone else is irrationally discriminoatory. (I appended 'irrational' there because not all discrimination is irrataional - if I need a medical doctor, I'm going to hire someone with the education and licensure: I'm discriminating on the basis of education, but it would be pretty stupid of me not to).

[rupertlvr27]

i agree ....it is still a problem. not only are there racial slurs against african american people but also a great deal more frequent slurs against caucasians......the problem gets worse every year, especially in my school. generally,we all get along;i have friends of many different races, and we're pretty close. of course, you always get that one group of guys or girls that think they're better than anyone else. i once had an african american girl tell me that i was a white b**** just because i yelled at her because her whole "group" decided to go to the front of the line and jip all these people. of course, i could have gotten into trouble if i said something to her: possibly a suspension or detention either which i can't afford the time to go to. people also take advantage of race........there are a lot of law suits about it. anyone could say that you offended them wih what you said to them if they had a so called "witness" who is their friend............most likely this problem is more common in the U.S., but i don't doubt it happens in other countries.

[Pilum]

[steps off topic]

Dedalus, best reponse to the door/seat thing I ever witnessed was from an elderly chap to a somewhat... how to say this... brassy young woman.

Standing there, his back ramrod straight (convinced he must have been an RSM!). Said, in an equally loud voice:
"Madam. I have been enough of a gentleman to offer you my seat. Kindly be enough of a lady to accept."

[back on topic]

[purplehawk]

The dialogue in this thread is encouraging. I truly believe that it is among the younger people that any hope to move beyond racist stereotypes actually lies. My husband and I took great care to remove the issue of using racial discrimination as a reason for failure when raising our three kids. We talked with them honestly about it, of course, but from the moment they were old enough to venture into school, we made it known they weren't going to be able to come home with bad marks and blame it on racism. School was for learning, not to be the most popular kid or to get caught up in all that implies, and they should treat their education as seriously as Dad and I treated our careers. We were largely successful academically; socially there were some truly rough moments but they certainly weren't the norm.

Then they grew up. All three made interracial marriages. They are as color-blind as any three thirty-somethings you could find anywhere.

Still, the eldest (who is a physician) was stopped by a police officer in the affluent neighborhood in which he and his wife had just bought a new home. He wasn't speeding, hadn't committed any traffic violation, but he was a well-dressed black male driving an expensive car in a neighborhood where few blacks lived. The officer appeared to be exceedingly irritated when he could find nothing with which to charge my son and finally said, in frustration, "You can be on your way - but don't make any wrong moves."

Our middle child and only daughter had to endure a rough time with her husband's extended family, none of whom were exactly welcoming. I can't tell you the number of battles my son-in-law and his parents had to wage with their family members. In the end, it turned out well. She is one of the family now and the old misgivings are a thing of the past. No longer does the SIL receive invitations marked with a handwritten note not to bring any "guests."

Our youngest son has had a rougher time of it. His son attends a private preparatory school, very exclusive in terms of placements, located in a wealthy 'burb not far from our home. I can drive to and from the school 10 times a day without incident. But let his dad do the driving and he will be stopped one time out of ten for no particular reason at all. We had a major fracas with the community a couple of years ago that resulted in the firing of a police officer and a formal apology from the city administration. Even the school got involved to express their outrage at such discriminatory treatment of one of its parents. Since that time, our son has been stopped for things like talking on a cell phone while operating a motor vehicle, or "I thought you might have been speeding," or a simple seatbelt check. Harassment? You make the call.

[Alci]

But there are also a fair number of incidents of accusations being leveled without foundation. For some people the constane search for racism/sexism/sizism/ etc. becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.This is sadly becoming increasingly true. There has been, especially in the US, a worrying rise in misguided (wilfully or otherwise) accusations of racism.

In '99 the Mayor of D.C. forced the resignation of a senior aide after he remarked that "I will have to be *****rdly[Rhymes with trigger] with this fund, because it's not going to be a lot of money." A black aide walked out of the meeting and soon after the events were widely reported.

Suffice to say that the word has no link whatsoever with the word ****** (again removed by the heavy handed auto-censor...how pointless:grumble:) and has meant "stingy" for more than a millennium.

There have been a good number of similar incidents with the same word and others like "nitty-gritty" and "picnic". Common sense would make you think the publicity of earlier incidents really ought to have prevented any further confusion; fat chance! Whether its political expediency or not I can't say but it does seem that the presumption of innocence has been severely curtailed over racial allegations.

In the D.C. incident, the NAACP thankfully backed the white aide which did much to inject sense back into the debate. The problem remains that even limited numbers of spurious claims are not only grossly unfair on those involved but undermine valid and positive proposals for trying to create an equal and inoffensive workplace.

[pasalita]

To be clear: The question is not whether or not there are accusations made towards employers and others where it is justifiable. The question is asking, in the cases when the accusation is falsely made towards another person (and, this is possible), is the false accusation promoting discrimination? Is the false accusation discriminatory in itself?

However, to be quite frank: The topic of "false accusation" correlates very much with ideas of, and the debate surrounding, discrimination, in that it asks whether a false accusation based on race or, now, gender promotes discrimination.

As such, I'd like to merge the thread. However, I'll leave it to Adalbart Waffling to let me know which thread, the Discrimination or Racism thread, he would like this thread to be merged into.



EDIT: *MERGED* :D

[Kaonashi]

it ameks me angry when people make false accusations, like that French woman who claimed that she was beaten up by a group of thugs on the subway who also wrote Anti Semetic slurs all over her body, and it was later found out that she lied about it. It only makes prosecuting REAL hate crimes all the more harder.

[mirandam]

I think that there are probably some people who have been wrongly accused of racism who may become racist instead of blaming the ignorance of the one accuser. I'm not sure if this will become anymore of a problem then it already is though at this time. I think that the majority of people would not react in that way. It makes me pretty angry though that people have used their race to wrongly accuse someone of doing something and these people have lost their jobs because of this. I feel that the people who lost their job should take recourse on the company for wrongful firing without proof of the accusation against them. Maybe this will make the companies who just fire someone take a better look at the situation and have to deal with it instead of taking the easy way out.

[Tane]

it ameks me angry when people make false accusations, like that French woman who claimed that she was beaten up by a group of thugs on the subway who also wrote Anti Semetic slurs all over her body, and it was later found out that she lied about it. It only makes prosecuting REAL hate crimes all the more harder.Yes I tend to agree it is the one thing that annoys me in life, when people totally miss judge you because a singular event in your life where all the facts are not gathered, in a way what you say can swing both ways. Discrimination can destroy someone who has really done nothing wrong, this kind of ties in with bullying in many ways too especially when a person tries to prove there innocence and people still cling to an event that happened a long time ago, an event they even miss-understood. I think one of the problems in this world is that too many people jump to the wrong conclusions based on very little facts and as a result can wreck another person’s life.

People get discriminated even for health reason and I think that needs to stop, no one should have there health problem ridiculed and in some cases made worse through stigma based around a theory and not a fact based up on medical evidence.

Discrimination occurs in many forms and most of the time those that are discriminating lack all the facts or only have half truths and hence end up coming to completely wrong conclusions.

[ComicBookWorm]

The dialogue in this thread is encouraging. I truly believe that it is among the younger people that any hope to move beyond racist stereotypes actually lies. My husband and I took great care to remove the issue of using racial discrimination as a reason for failure when raising our three kids. We talked with them honestly about it, of course, but from the moment they were old enough to venture into school, we made it known they weren't going to be able to come home with bad marks and blame it on racism. School was for learning, not to be the most popular kid or to get caught up in all that implies, and they should treat their education as seriously as Dad and I treated our careers. We were largely successful academically; socially there were some truly rough moments but they certainly weren't the norm.

Then they grew up. All three made interracial marriages. They are as color-blind as any three thirty-somethings you could find anywhere.

Still, the eldest (who is a physician) was stopped by a police officer in the affluent neighborhood in which he and his wife had just bought a new home. He wasn't speeding, hadn't committed any traffic violation, but he was a well-dressed black male driving an expensive car in a neighborhood where few blacks lived. The officer appeared to be exceedingly irritated when he could find nothing with which to charge my son and finally said, in frustration, "You can be on your way - but don't make any wrong moves."

Our middle child and only daughter had to endure a rough time with her husband's extended family, none of whom were exactly welcoming. I can't tell you the number of battles my son-in-law and his parents had to wage with their family members. In the end, it turned out well. She is one of the family now and the old misgivings are a thing of the past. No longer does the SIL receive invitations marked with a handwritten note not to bring any "guests."

Our youngest son has had a rougher time of it. His son attends a private preparatory school, very exclusive in terms of placements, located in a wealthy 'burb not far from our home. I can drive to and from the school 10 times a day without incident. But let his dad do the driving and he will be stopped one time out of ten for no particular reason at all. We had a major fracas with the community a couple of years ago that resulted in the firing of a police officer and a formal apology from the city administration. Even the school got involved to express their outrage at such discriminatory treatment of one of its parents. Since that time, our son has been stopped for things like talking on a cell phone while operating a motor vehicle, or "I thought you might have been speeding," or a simple seatbelt check. Harassment? You make the call.
The above is an example of DWB (driving while black). Michael Moore did a bit on his television show with Yaphet Kotto trying to flag down a cab in New York. He was well-dressed and well-groomed, and black. He could not get a ride. He has had a successful acting career in movies, and played a police lieutenant for six years on Homicide--and he still didn't look safe to the cabbies.

[Adelaide]

In the area where I live, the Southern United States, we have an espicially bad reputation for discriminating against those of different races or religions.

This reputation definatly has its roots in truth. When the South withdrew from the Union, one of the reasons we left was because of the issue of slavery. Even after the Civil War, it wasn't untill the Civil Rights movement of the 1960's that blacks and people of other races were given all the rights that they deserved. Today, in my school and throughout my community, there are racist comments made. Sometimes, you will see anti-semetic(sp?) graffeti in the bathrooms. Racism is real and alive, as is discrimination.

However, it is a bit of a paradox to assume that all Southerners are racist, anti-Semetic, WASP(white, Anglo-Saxon protestents) supporters. This in itself is discrimination, and irks me to no end. I realize that quite a few people are racist, my grandparents being one of them. But, assuming that we all discriminate by the color of somebody's skin...

*steps off of soap box*

Adelaide

[Fairyliquid]

I am completely against discrimination in any way, shape or form. I am lucky to be in a community where everyone is equal and people from many different cultures can come together without worrying too much about cultural differences. It is simply a a fact that we are all different. Even those from the same cultures have rather different beliefs. Unfortunatley racism still exists, its everywhere. When i lived in Indonesia it was the most obvious. Coloured people always complain about being treated badly for the colour of their skin but when i lived in indonesia our driver was repetidly stoped because of 'speeding fines' We had to keep 50,000Rp (about $10 i think) in the car just incase. When i walked down the street people would stare at me because i was white and they didnt try to hide it. I am aware that the racism against coloured people is more apparent but i thought i would point out that it can happen to white people as well. This is also just in one country, i know for a fact it doesnt happen in every place.

[Chrysalis]

That's just corruption. And people stare because there are few white people in Indonesia. THere's nothing racist about that. Heck, people stare at me when I'm in India, and I was born there!

[busy91]

Fairyliquid: Do they stare at you because you are white and look different from most of the population, thus making you 'different', or do they stare because they don't like white people.

There in lies the difference in discrimination.

Do they treat you any differently because you are white. And where are you from? Were you born there? Are you American, British? Lots of places don't like Americans.

There could be many reasons why they stare, and maybe they do or maybe they don't have anything to do with discrimination.

[DarkThunder]

Ahh, discrimination never dies does it? Maybe we achieved women or black's rights but then it moves on to homosexuals... maybe we'll achieve their equal rights but then, will it move on to something else?

Im against it, obviously. There are only rare cases in which it even makes sense (for example: perhaps someone's family were tortured by Japanese, so he/her may hate the Japanese), though even in those cases it isnt justified really, to hate all Japanese.

I suppose people fear what they cannot understand, and a lot of people cannot understand difference...

[busy91]

DarkThunder, you just reminded me of something my son told me. I found it interesting because they are 13/14 year olds and I wondered where his friend learned this.

His friend is Chinese, and I don't know how the topic came up, but he said that he hates Japanese people, and something about a war (I don't know exactly which one). And I told my son, that there is nothing wrong with Japanese people and that your friend is just repeating what he hears. And that what happend how ever many years ago should not affect him today.

Discrimination is taught, and it is too bad that there are outside influences that can hamper my efforts. I told my son that everyone is the same, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Black, White...and that unless an individual does something to you personally to cause you to dislike them then you don't have to like THEM, but don't hold it against a whole race/gender/religion because some body else holds a grudge.

[AS_Muggle]

Ahh, discrimination is always one of the most emotive subjects for me.

I personally believe that all forms of discrimination are wrong. In the UK, we have a number of laws to protect people on the grounds of Political view, Gender, Ethnic Backgroung and Disabillity. Indeed, the disabillity discrimination laws in the UK were strengthened on October 1st.

A lot of problems I have experienced in my own life with (an albeit minority of) people acting in a discriminatory fashion are where people don't understand. Indeed, these people, when they first get to know me treat me in many respects like an outsider, but over time they actually get to know me and realise that I can bring a lot of good things into a group situation.

I suppose what I'm trying to get at here is that I wish all people could treat everyone else with respect. We are inherently all different, but that doesn't mean that some people are worth less. We all bring something different to the game of life, and life ends up better because of it.

[Fairyliquid]

Fairyliquid: Do they stare at you because you are white and look different from most of the population, thus making you 'different', or do they stare because they don't like white people.

There in lies the difference in discrimination.

Do they treat you any differently because you are white. And where are you from? Were you born there? Are you American, British? Lots of places don't like Americans.

There could be many reasons why they stare, and maybe they do or maybe they don't have anything to do with discrimination.

You make a good point. Yes sometimes its just because I am 'different' but i do believe that discrimination is between both expats in indonesia and locals. I am originally Scottish and even my white friends say im too white. So in that respect i do believe that it could be just because i am different, not that that is a bad thing :p . However i cannot deny that racism does exist between both expats in indonesia and local indonesians.
One thing that really bugs me about my family is how they change their way of speaking when talking to Indonesians, granted they rarely understand our lovely scottish accents but my mum especially talks to them as though they are stupid and often raises her voice slightly as though they can not hear her. I find this embarrassing because then they look at her as though there is something wrong with her and treat her as though she is dumb and it just keeps going in a circle.

Another reason there is so much discrimination there is because of the classes. We are just your average middle class family. Our family to many Indonesians is what the royal family in Britain is to the middle class. There is so much difference between classes that you cannot really blame any predjudice beliefs they have about westerners.

[Firebolt_2007]

discrimination in any form is wrong...but human nature will never change.

[Tiberius]

Still, the eldest (who is a physician) was stopped by a police officer in the affluent neighborhood in which he and his wife had just bought a new home. He wasn't speeding, hadn't committed any traffic violation, but he was a well-dressed black male driving an expensive car in a neighborhood where few blacks lived. The officer appeared to be exceedingly irritated when he could find nothing with which to charge my son and finally said, in frustration, "You can be on your way - but don't make any wrong moves."

Our middle child and only daughter had to endure a rough time with her husband's extended family, none of whom were exactly welcoming. I can't tell you the number of battles my son-in-law and his parents had to wage with their family members. In the end, it turned out well. She is one of the family now and the old misgivings are a thing of the past. No longer does the SIL receive invitations marked with a handwritten note not to bring any "guests."

Our youngest son has had a rougher time of it. His son attends a private preparatory school, very exclusive in terms of placements, located in a wealthy 'burb not far from our home. I can drive to and from the school 10 times a day without incident. But let his dad do the driving and he will be stopped one time out of ten for no particular reason at all. We had a major fracas with the community a couple of years ago that resulted in the firing of a police officer and a formal apology from the city administration. Even the school got involved to express their outrage at such discriminatory treatment of one of its parents. Since that time, our son has been stopped for things like talking on a cell phone while operating a motor vehicle, or "I thought you might have been speeding," or a simple seatbelt check. Harassment? You make the call.

It is indeed sad that we live in a world where people can be pulled over while driving merely because they have dark skin.