Mad Eye Moody and the Unforgivable Curses

[halfmoonspectacles]

Okay, we all know that in book4 the DADA teacher, Mad-Eye-Moody was actually Crouch Jr. in disguise. I find it very interesting to retrace his actions throughout the book so as to see why the alleged Moody acted in such ways. After reading about how Moody's "fascination" with the curses and how they all need to be caught up in this subject a question formed in my mind....i think we could have a rolling discussion here if others would feedback some opinions....
Do you think that Moody was carrying out his evil and hatred under the umbrella of being a DADA teacher? It seems to me that he is a bit more avid than a normal teacher would be about performing the curses. He says that, "I'm not supposed to teach you what illegal Dark curses look like until you're in the sixth year. You're not supposed to be old enough to deal with it till then. But Professor Dumbledore's got a higher opinion of your nerves,he reckons you can cope, and I say, the sooner you know what you're up against the better." Do you really think that Dumbledore said that? I find it highly ironic, too, that Moody advises to prep them early when all along he is ensuring Voldemort's rise to power. Could this be a touch of kindness? Giving some people the heads up be4 his master finishes them off? Or is he doing this all for Harry? It becomes evident that Moody tests the Imperious curse on Harry far more than the other students. Could this be so he will be prepared to face his master? How could Moody know so far ahead though? Could he have possible forseen the prospect that Harry Potter and Voldemort would duel? And like I said before, Moody seems to be doing this all under Dumbledore's advisement. He says to the students " Dumbledore wants you taught what it feels like." I find it highly unlikely that Dumbledore would want any of his students to be subjected to an Unforgiveable Curse, which leads me to believe that Moody made that up. He was acting on his own orders becuz Crouch Jr. has this unsatiable need to be evil to innocents. But maybe Dumbledore agreed on the condition that it was only the Imperius Curse and that no REAL harm could be done .....or does Dumbledore really feel that the current state of Bertha Jorkins disappearance and Frank Byrce's death and other such incidents provide clues towards Voldemort's power rising? Does he feel that it is necessary for Moody to teach his students so they can get practice? I think that this can be viewed on varying degrees....its doubtful that this will ever be answered in upcoming books but if any1 ever gets the chance to chat with Rowling or ask her a ?...it would be much appreciated if they could drop a line here...but it makes you wonder...

[EvilMeghan]

:welcome: to the boards, halfmoonspectacles (and nice name)!!! This is a really good thread...I never thought about that before.

Here are some of my ideas:
I think Dumbledore, knowing that Voldy was probably going to regain his power soon, did want the students to see the Unforgivable Curses.
But why did Crouch want to show the students these curses? Why help them battle the Imperius Curse? That is strange. Could he be hoping to one day bring the students to the Dark Side? Is he hoping to convert Harry over time? Or is he trying to be as realistic as possible in playing Moody, even though it may hurt his master's plans? I think Dumbledore would definitely allow Moody to perform the curse on the students to teach them to throw it off, because he trusts Moody so much. That's all I could come up with now...:D Good thread!

[fuzzi95]

Why would Moody show Harry the curses to help him? I don't really think that's what the curses purposes were!!!

[EvilMeghan]

Then what do you think the purposes of the curses were?

[halfmoonspectacles]

Fuzzi95- we all know that the Unforgiveable Curses are horrible things that subject wizards to the cruelest and evilest of magic, but I am intending to look beyond what they are. I intend to get feedback on why Moody was motivated to use them. Sure, you could just say that Moody was subjecting Harry to the curse so many times because he is the object of his master's downfall, but the purpose of this forum is to look beyond the obvious and to read bewteen the lines.

[Padme Granger]

I think Crouch was testing Harry. He wanted to see just how strong this boy that his master was after really was. So he made up the story of preparing the students, got Dumbledore to approve, and then he apparently pretty much had free reign over what he did in class.

[halfmoonspectacles]

Very interesting...

[Alastor D]

I'm not sure this is a question of either or. It may be both.
Dumbledore knew that something was happening. He might very well have been wanting Moody to teach those curses. And Barty jr eagerly jumped to the opportunity to use his dark powers once again. He hadn't got a chance in 13 years.

[lodlom]

He did everything he did so he could get by dumbledore....him and dumbledore were friends, dont you think if he was acting at all out of character dumbledore would have thought something.....If crouch jr. was putting the unforgiveable curses on students without dumbledores consent dont you think dumbledore would have heard about it? Dumbledore has his own lesson plans and i gaurentee you crouch handled the situations in the exact way moody would have handled them....which would also shed some light on another question some asked about his relationship with neville. Moody was probably friends with frank longbottom, and being a fellow auror im sure that moody would have shown kindness to neville on his own. Crouch was simply playing the part of moody to a T

[smartypants]

Either he wanted to make a relistic Moody, or he wanted to practice the curses. It had been 13 years or so. :)

[EvilMeghan]

Wait! Wasn't Crouch convicted of torturing the Longbottoms?!?! I don't know if he really was guilty or not, but how ironic is it that he shows kindness to their son?
Actually, we have no idea what Moody said to Neville when he took him aside. Neville came back all strange...

[weedro]

Originally posted by lodlom (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=226091#post226091))
Moody was probably friends with frank longbottom, and being a fellow auror im sure that moody would have shown kindness to neville on his own. Crouch was simply playing the part of moody


This is a very interesting point! I'd like to hear more of your opinions if u want to owl me!!

[halfmoonspectacles]

Okay...wait, wait...how is it again that this subject turned to moody and the longbottoms????

[weedro]

don't ask me. I was just comenting on someones post!

[Hpmons]

There are theories that he did this so he could send a msg to Vol to tell him who could fight the Imperius curse and who couldnt.

My thoughts? It was just an introduction to show that Harry couldnt be affected by the Imperius curse and could fight it, but not any relavance to future plots.

[fuzzi95]

I like the thought of Harry being tested, it makes the most sense. Crouch was always sending his eagle owl to Voldemort. Then he would send it back. Right before Crouch was discovered, an eagle owl flew in past the owlrey where Harry was. Could this have been Voldemort telling Crouch Jr. that Crouch Sr. had escaped??? Whoops, I'm way off topic! My apologies!

[halfmoonspectacles]

You know what? i am listening to the books on tape and i just heard that part! Thats pretty neat...but i can see the whole testing theory to be true...i was never really aware that crouch jr. was sending owls to voldemort on a regular basis...

[weedro]

yes! Thats a pretty good point you've proven. I need to read that book again, and check out the eagle owl part. ciao!

[halfmoonspectacles]

weedro, u seem like a nice person...so why did u post those quotes from that pitiful good-for nothing- malfoy?

[cedric]

ok, ok, i think that he did it to see if the harry had powers to withstand unforgivable curses maybe, crouch thinking that if harry could stand the killing spell he could survive the other one.or maybe he was testing them . good theory

[Starseyer]

Comment about the unforgivable curses: I can see why the killing curse and the cruciatus curse should be illegal under any and all circumstances. period. But it seemed to be even a good idea for a DADA teacher to train students to withstand the imperius curse. I think it would help the potential victims of the curse to resist in in real like situations. Like Harry when Voldemort used it on him. Any thoughts about this?
I also thought it ironic that Voldie's servant trained Harry to resist Voldie.

[halfmoonspectacles]

yea, Starseyer, when i posted this i was thinking along those lines...it seems like subjecting students to the imperious curse would give them an opp to test it out so it doesnt come as a huge shock if they ever have to experience it....jus something off topic here...but did ne1 consider what the "silvery bird-like stream" that shot out of dumbeldore's wand respresents? that was when krum had been stunned and dumbledore sent this thing...it apparently retrieved Hagrid cuz he came hurrying out after that....this is a really wild thought...but do u think thats the Order of the Phoenix? I am pretty sure that it will be something on a bit larger scale but i jus thought id share it

[MadMagic]

How do we know that Dumbledore actually approved of the teaching of the curses to the forth years. Afterall I think Crouch jr, is the one to tell us that, and I don't think we can take his word about anything.

It is a very interesting question why Crouch Jr. would teach Harry to fight the imperious curse. Maybe he was so impressed with his ability to fight it that he got carried away. Or maybe after knowing the humiliation of being under the imperious curse (from being under it himself) he doesn't want anyone else to be tortured in that way. MAybe deep down he isn't as terrible as he seemed.

[dorcasderr]

The question about Crouch/Moody has niggled at my mind for a while too. Part of me has wondered whether there was still a kernel of good in Crouch, jr, and whether he had told himself he was testing Harry in order to report to Voldemort, but was, in reality-hidden even from his own concious, preparing Harry to face the curses. Even if he WAS in constant communication with Voldemort, Voldemort still used the Imperius curse on Harry. That says to me that Crouch, jr. didn't report the fact of Harry's strength against this curse back to Voldemort...or, at least, MAY not have. Why not? Did he in fact report it and Voldemort was just so full of his own pride of power that he assumed an Imperius Curse cast by himself would be too powerful to resist? Was it Crouch, jr.'s lack of foresight, his stupidity or an underlying impulse to good that caused him to prepare Harry so well?

[DRaGoNoFiLlFaItH]

good thread. I hadnt even thought of that till you mentioned it. Maybe he reported it to Voldemort that he was testing Harry so he could know how strong he needed to conjure his curses.

[halfmoonspectacles]

:clappy: :cool: :p :D :rotfl: ;D
so happy u all like my thread!

[FawkesBox]

The thing that bothers me the most is that no one outside Hogwart's found out that "Moody" used the unforgivable curses. I thought that using the unforgivable curses on a human were punishable by life in Azkaban. There must be someone monitoring this from the Ministry of Magic! If not certainly one of the students sent an owl home. Student in the 6th year are shown what the curses look like- i don't think it says anywhere that they should be practiced on students! I'm surprised that no parents contacted Hogwart's or the appropriate Ministry of Magic Department.

[halfmoonspectacles]

That's an interesting point...

[Hpmons]

I looked for a thread on this, but couldnt find one; but there probably is one somewhere...

But remember the lesson where "Moody" tested the Imperius Curse on everybody? Well these are some things Id like to discuss:

A) We do not know whether Moody tested Hermione or not.
B) Both Neville and Ron could not resist the Imperius Curse
C) Why was "Moody" (aka Crouch Jr) testing the curse on people anyway? Did he tell Voldermort that certain people could be used to his advantages?

[supernatural]

there is a similar thread going on to this in the hermionie mysteries thread.

moody seemed to go around the class putting curses on everyone and the stopping at harry and then kept putting him under until he could break out of it completely- (didn't this save his life when he met voldie?)

moody did the curse, with others to let the class see what they were up against- i dont know what the real motives were- possibly to tell voldie who could be easily controlled and who pout up a fight?????

[Mike21]

I think that Voldamort wasnt suprised that Harry could resist but his death eaters were because not a lot of people can resist that curse.

[Earendil]

The question is, wouldn't "Moody" WANT harry to be susceptible to the Imperius Curse? This rigorous persistence in forcing him to throw it off ended up helping to save harry's life in the end. I have a feeling JKR wasn't thinking along those exact lines, and was just trying to introduce the Imperius Curse to the readers, at the same time showing that Harry can fight it, without regards to who was administering it.

[FoolOnTheHill]

I've wondered the same thing, about why he kept putting the curse on Harry until he could completely resist. I've just told myself, well, Crouch Jr. had to act like Moody to fool everyone, and that's something that Moody would have done so he did it anyway.

As for Hermione, it would be interesting to see if she could break it since she has a very strong mind. But would it be enough to break the curse? I really don't know....

[smartypants]

Originally posted by Earendil (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=263369#post263369))
The question is, wouldn't "Moody" WANT harry to be susceptible to the Imperius Curse? This rigorous persistence in forcing him to throw it off ended up helping to save harry's life in the end.


It did? How?

What it did show is that Harry has a strong mind, and that is of course the reason he won the "fight" with Voldemort. And JKR wanted to show that by showing that Harry could fight off the imperius curse. The question remains why Moody-Crouch (Croody? Mouch? :)) let him practise. To gain confidence? Too act like he thought Moody would have? Well, that's my bet at least.

JKR also showed that Ron is rather crappy at fighting the imperius curse (he suffered ill effects long after the curse was lifted) which we also see in Ron being more effected by Fleurs magic than Harry is.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Maybe Crouch got some sadistic pleasure out of watching Harry have to struggle with the Imperius Curse over and over again. Or perhaps he was hoping that if Harry had greater exposure to it, he would be weakened in the long run. I don't really believe he was thinking all that far ahead though.

[Mike21]

So Ron is going to be suceptable to all of the imperious curses then..

We have rea the the imperious curse makes your skin papery and thinner so shouldnt it be ovious to anyone to know that someone is under the imperious curse.

If someone discovers that you are acting the imperious curse could they cast a counter curse or would you have to kill the person/badly injure them or make them want to stop using the imperious curse before the person who is under the imperious curse can shake the curse off?

[Hpmons]

Will the Imperius curse be used on any students in the future? The fact that almost all the students were put through it, and all of them could not break it, shows that this may be foreshadowing something that will happen in the future.

I think the bit where "Moody" put Harry through the Imperius curse a few times was probably just for us to realise that Harry could beat the curse. But it still seems a little strange...

[Auri DeMeer]

Maybe Dumbledore suggested Moody that he should exposure the students and especially Harry to the Imperius curse. Or maybe he was just testing how strong could some students be.

[HP_WizKid]

Hello!
I dont know why Moody/Crouch did that spell on harry which helped him but maybe he wanted to see for himself.Because even though he is Vol most loyal servant,he like all the deatheaters are probably very curious as to why Vol couldnt kill Harry and wanted proof(the more i write of this ,the more i convince myself)so he couldnt use either of the other two cause they kill and cause extreme pain(which would be pretty much a give away) so he used the Imperius.Now he has his proof ,now he knows that Harry Potter is no push over (go Harry).
plus that Ron thing .Im thinking that maybe JK is building up for something to come.Perhaps Ron will falter ,not of his own accord ,he might not be strong enough to withstand Vols strength and will be forced on the dark side -i hope not.But i think that if JK does something like this she might choose to have Ron withstand it and stay on the good side ,stay on Harrys side -because that would show that however weak Ron may be at spels/school ,Ron is Harrys best friend and would die and try his best for him.its like sirius and james .Ron would also be giving something back to Harry.Ok im gonna stop cause im rambling ,i could go on all day praising harry and ron and everyone in Hp!

Bye
Hannah

[Shoujo Kitsune]

Personally I think that Moody/Crouch was taching them how to fight the curse was not only to size up the kids and see how they could take it, but to vent...he was under the curse for so long, I think that maybe he may have wanted them to feel what it was like to be under it...esp. Harry because if Harry hadn't lived, then Volde would still be alive and Crouch Jr. would not have had to be under the curse in the first place...

Just my thoughts though!

[Moonstone]

Perhaps Crouch/Moody was simply amazed that someone could resist the curse right away. After all, Crouch/Moody spent long years under his father's control. And in his surprise, he just wanted to see if Harry could resist again and again.

[zoeydsngwrtr]

Wasn't it against the law to do that curse??? I always thought that moody/crouch jr was being really risky by doing that. I think he was just showing off, like he got joy out of doing it, and testing to see how Harry would react. I am sure he just kept puting it on Harry to torture him, just a bit of anger, maybe something he was adicted to.

[Shoujo Kitsune]

it was against the law, but he was using it in a lesson format, not out of vengence (that the Ministry knows...) so I would assume that he coudl do it to teach them...but it never says whether or not he got a letter from the missuse of magic department...but seeing that he was still around for the rest of the book, i guess they thought it was okay for him to do it...

[Snowangel]

I've always thought that Crouch as Moody was trying to see how well Harry (and the other students) could hold up under the imperius spell. It never really made all that much sense, though, why he was allowed to use it. It's interesting to think about this stuff because the more I think about it, the less sense it makes that he was testing this on them.

[durglousfan]

The reason Crouch Jn spent so much time helping Harry to be able to fight the Impervious Curse is complicated to explain but is really simple.

Crouch's job was to get Harry though the challenges and to the Portkey in the centre of the maze. But then it would be easy for Crouch's achievements to get overlooked. To try and prevent this happening Crouch does his best to for Harry to get back to Hogwarts. This involves making Harry aware of how to fight/avoid the forbidden Curses. It also involves making the Portkey both make Harry go to Voldemort AND back to Hogwarts a short time later. Then Crouch hopes to be able to pick up the weak Harry and kill him and thus be rewarded.

All in all a good plan, it wouldn't have mattered that much (to Crouch) if Harry had been killed by Voldemort but he'd have gained a lot by finishing the job himself. He was only thwarted by Dumbledore's alertness.

[Shoujo Kitsune]

that makes since, being that after he got back, Crouch Jr did nothing but ask Harry if Volde took the old DE's back....I was just waiting for Harry to catch on and yell back at him 'Yes, he took them back and gave them all rewards for being there!' just to upset Crouch....:p

[zoeydsngwrtr]

That makes a lot of sense, I was beginning to wonder why Crouch was so friendly and helpful to Harry, but you are right, it was all part of the plan.

[Madam Rosmerta]

Moody tells the class why he is teaching them the curses. It specifically says that Dumbledore wants them to know what they are up against, even if the Ministry of Magic doesn't want the curses being taught. Also, since Harry was the only kid in the class who could throw off the curse Moody may have wanted to use him as an example to show the kids what's what. After all, if Moody showed any signs of NOT being a faithful teacher, Dumbledore would surely notice immediately.

[rotsiepots]

I'm going to merge this thread with an existing topic entitled Mad Eye Moody and his use of the Unforgiveable Curses (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7156).

If another admin/mod thinks these threads should remain separate, please split the threads. :)

[zoeydsngwrtr]

Yes, but did Dumbledoor know that Moody taught the class the curse?

[Madam Rosmerta]

Originally posted by zoeydsngwrtr (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=263752#post263752))
Yes, but did Dumbledoor know that Moody taught the class the curse?


Yes, it says so in the book.

[Alastor D]

The theory that Barty jr wanted Harry back alive looks good except for why should he presume that Voldie would fail to kill Harry? Fighting the imperius curse is one thing. Surviving Aveda Kedavra another.
Perhaps the portkey was made a two way one for Voldie to send Harry's body back for everyone to see????
The reason he picked Harry for demonstration in class may be he was the only one who showed ability to fight it. So the whole class could see it's possible. Wouldn't any teacher do that?

[durglousfan]

I didn't say that Crouch was definitly expecting Harry to come back alive, just that it was terrifficly advantageous if it could be arranged/helped.
And it was Crouch's idea to teach the class how to deal with the curses.

[Alastor D]

Quote: "I'm not supposed to show you what illegal Dark curses look like until you're in the sixth year. You're not supposed to be old enough to deal with it 'til then. But Dumbledore's got a higher opinion of your nerves, he reckons you can cope,..."
That's all we know abt why these curses were taught to 3rd years. Nowhere it's said which one (Dd or Barty jr.) first suggested it.
But, yes, it seems Barty jr was quite eager to do it.

[Filia Tenebrarum]

I think it's possible that Dumbledore really did order the 4th years to to be taught about the curses. Dumbledore told the school about Voldemort's return; he trusts peoples ability to cope with the truth. Dumbledore is the sort of person who runs the school by letting it run itself. He gives Harry his invisibilty cloak back when he knows Harry might use it to do something dangerous, because he wants to give Harry a chance. DD always treats people like adults. I can see him having his students taught about the curse and taught how to fight the Imperius Curse off because he wanted, rather than protecting them, to enable them to protect themselves.
I can also see Moody/Crouch getting a certain sadistic pleasure out of carrying out DD's instructions.

[Alastor D]

I fully agree with you, Filia. And thanks for correcting my 3rd year error.

[FawkesBox]

Originally posted by Madam Rosmerta (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=263774#post263774))
Yes, it says so in the book.


But how do we know that he isn't lieing as with Voldemort there is never proof.

[harp230]

I am sure that Dumbledore instructed "Moody" to teach the curses in that way. Surely, Moody had great pleasure to use the curses, but what other motivation would he have anyway. I am sure he would have realized that teaching Harry to fight the Imperious curse would not be a good thing for Voldemort. I am sure he just did that to give Dumbledore the impression that he was the real Moody.

[zoeydsngwrtr]

I stand corrected....thank you.

That is a good point Fila. So wast it normal for the students to learn the spell in later years?

[Alastor D]

Yes, zoeydsngwrtr, it probably was normal to learn it in later years.
"I'm not supposed to to show you what illegal Dark curses look like until you're in the sixth year."

[Girl]

It was normal for them to learn the spells in the later years. My guess is that Dumbledore told Mad Eye to teach it to them. Maybe Dumbledore had a feeling that something was going to happen that year and wanted them to be ready. Crunch only went along so that Dumbledore would not think that he was not Mad Eye. Ofcourse Crunch had joy when he did the curse it was just some fun to him.

[flibbertigibbet]

I like the theory that Moody/Crouch Jr was simply fascinated by how well Harry could withstand the curse he himself was under for so many years. It's the most logical reason I've come across for Crouch putting Harry under it so many times.

It doesn't make sense that Crouch would teach his master's greatest opponent to withstand such a useful tool, no matter how many kicks he got out of it. He had an entire class to practise on, after all, but he chose to put Harry under it.. 5 times!

The only other thing I can think of is that Crouch figured Harry would learn to withstand it sooner or later, so he might as well teach him to do it now and find out how much strength he has. That way Voldemort wouldn't be surprised when he tried control Harry and it didn't quite work..

[FawkesBox]

That does make a lot of sense. Death eaters were fames in their heyday for their sadism- torturing muggles and wizards alike. Certainly the long years of Crouch's imprisonment would make him only more cruel, and thus, afford him greater pleasure at the suffering of the ultimate cause of his (crouch's) suffering- the boy who lived!

[franke]

One reason I think Crouch as Moody used the curses was to terrify the people whose families were destroyed by them. You remember the way Neville reacted. He was petrified. I am sure Crouch got some kind of pleasure from this. And Harry too. All he could think was "that was how my parents died"
Crouch, although wanting to look like Moody, really did get pleasure from showing the curses to the students. Especially Harry and Neville. I really think Neville because he had tortured Neville's parents.
As for why he made Harry go through the Imperious Curse so many times: I think he just got excited by seeing someone defend it. You know, especially at the end when he got excited and forgot to drink the Polyjuice Potion. Maybe the same thing here. He was so fascinated that he forgot to quit doing it until Harry had conquered it!

[Alcina]

One reason I think Crouch as Moody used the curses was to terrify the people whose families were destroyed by them. You remember the way Neville reacted. He was petrified. I am sure Crouch got some kind of pleasure from this.

This sounds like the best answer yet. He was enjoying giving Harry a hard time far too much to remember that it wasn't a good idea to teach him fo fight it. Also, bear in mind that he had no reason to think Harry would ever be subjected to it for real. The plot involved kidnapping and killing him, not controlling him. Yes, as it happened, the Dark Lord did try to use it on him, but his ability to throw it off wasn't a major problem; the Dark Lord was just having fun at Harry's expense, he wasn't actually trying to get Harry to do anything important.

[SnorkackCatcher]

I like the theory that Moody/Crouch Jr was simply fascinated by how well Harry could withstand the curse he himself was under for so many years. It's the most logical reason I've come across for Crouch putting Harry under it so many times.

(Came across this thread very late via a closed thread.) Agree with the above, and also that sheer sadism was probably an additional reason (later he put the class through a "rigorous test of hex-deflection" which left many of them with minor injuries).

Also, of course, Crouch Jr had to throw himself completely into his role in order to be convincing, so subsconsciously would probably have started to behave a little bit like the real Moody, at least as far as being nice to Harry went (until he reached the centre of the maze, anyway).

[Lady deMimsy]

Interesting question. I'd have to say it's not so much the lesson on curses that makes me wonder about Crouch / Moody, it's the fact that he's an astonishingly good teacher in general, when it would be easy for him to be a bad one without arousing suspicion. Lots of people are perfectly competent in their own careers but aren't particularly good at teaching others to do the same work; I doubt that anyone would be surprised if a mildly unstable ex-Auror with no teaching experience fell into that category. It's also awfully convenient that Crouch received the Dementor's Kiss before anybody was able to interrogate him.

I've suspected for a while that at least one Death Eater will turn out to have been playing for both sides in subsequent books -- frankly, the way Voldemort treats his followers seems guaranteed to breed resentment and quiet disloyalty, even if few people will risk openly leaving his service. My first guess is Peter -- he seems to have the right amount of cunning, several very good reasons to be disaffected, and a level of incompetence that is just high enough to cause Voldemort some damage without raising untoward suspicions. However, Crouch, Jr. would be an interesting alternative possibility.

[SnorkackCatcher]

I've suspected for a while that at least one Death Eater will turn out to have been playing for both sides in subsequent books -- frankly, the way Voldemort treats his followers seems guaranteed to breed resentment and quiet disloyalty, even if few people will risk openly leaving his service. My first guess is Peter -- he seems to have the right amount of cunning, several very good reasons to be disaffected, and a level of incompetence that is just high enough to cause Voldemort some damage without raising untoward suspicions. However, Crouch, Jr. would be an interesting alternative possibility.

Interesting thought - I seem to remember Fudge saying Dumbledore "had a number of useful spies" in the first war, although he could be off the mark about that for any number of reasons.

I doubt it was Crouch Jr though, at least not if what he said under the influence of Veritaserum can be taken as accurate - given the way he was talking then, Voldemort's description of "most loyal Death Eater" seemed right on the money.

We may be reading too much into this? After all it was absolutely necessary for plot reasons that "Moody" seemed to be one of the good guys right up until the Big Surprise, so JKR may just have written Crouch as if he was the real thing regardless of how he was supposed to be doing it. Dumbledore mentions briefly that he had the real Moody there to question, so that might be the intended explanation of how he was such a convincing actor.

Peter seems to be a Death Eater more from threats and a lack of alternatives than from any great loyalty to Voldemort, and the way he behaved in the first chapter of GoF wasn't exactly convincing, so yes, he could well be trying to play a deep game. If so, I doubt that he'll be able to stand up against Voldemort's Legilmency though - his lying seemed transparent even when Voldy was in his weak proto-body!

[chochang2021]

Where is it stated, that Dumbledore wanted Mood-Crouch to teach them the spells? I think M-C wanted to teach them AGAINST the school order.

The only reason I can think of is: He wanted to introduce Harry to the dark arts. Maybe like gave him a taste of the power, he might have. And in ootp Harry eventually USED the cruscio-spell. Hmhmhm! :evil: (Okay, that's maybe a bit too "starwars". ;) )

But when M-C wanted to toture the kids, why didn't he "teach" Neville a bit more? I don't think he wanted to test Harry, he actually really strengthend him, they practised until Harry could resist. That makes no sense! I think it has something to do with the dementor's kiss and the fact, that Dumbledore wanted to know, why Barty Crouch became a death eater, any idea about this?

[Vequihellin]

I think that Dumbledore did indeed want the kids to know about the Unforgivable curses, after all, they are a Dark art and they were in Defence against the Dark Arts class were they not? But I think that Moody/Crouch was keeping a low profile, maintaining the image at that particular time, I think that he pretty much did nothing to blow his cover until he planted that Tri-wizard-cup-portkey. Going back to Aurors for a moment, if you are a James Bond fan, you will know that in 'Licence to kill' he has his Licence-to-kill revoked for bad behavior or something (I'm not really that much of a fan), and I think that Aurors, once trained, are given a licence to use the unforgivable curses, which I imagine is why Dumbledore employed Moody in the first place, because he wanted to teach the kids about UC's and the only people that can do it legally are Aurors.

Veq.

[Baron_G]

I can go with three reasons:

1) He wanted to see if Harry could be controlled should the need ever arise. Same for his friends.

2) It was a thing the real Moody might have done. Unconventional.

3) Somewhere in the middle of the Veritaserum chapter, Crouch Jr. talks about the furthering of the Dark Arts ('ensure the continued rise of the dark order'). Perhaps a demonstration of it's power was meant to influence the impressionable students, in the hopes that they would be lured to it like he was.

[shamrocknroll02]

I just finished GoF and the same questions have been rattling my brain ever since. I was thinking of starting a thread, but I'm glad I found this first. It's helped me lots! The "Keeping in Character" theory makes most since to me. I can't imagine why Fake Moody would want Harry to learn to defend himself against anything Voldomort would use against him, I think that's where I got stuck. Thanks to whoever started this! :)

~Stacey :rave:

[Tane]

Three curses for three wizards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let me refer to an interesting line of forshadowing which in my consideration leads to fatidic developments in book 6, or most likely 7.

It all starts on False Moody DADA class. He asks which are the unforgivable curses and we have three different people replying to the question. Neville explains Crutiatus, Hermione Avada Kedavra and Ron explains the Imperious curse.

During next book we see that during the mission at the DoM Neville is under the cruciatus curse by means of Bellatrix and Hermione is also subject to Avada Kedavra. Yes, she is sent the curse to but fortunately Harry tackles the Death Eater who is targeting her with it and his aim goes awry. This leads to the idea that the class was actual forshadowing and now we're waiting for be Ron's turn.

More backup to this idea comes from the fact that false Moodie had the imperious curse over all the class and aparently Ron was extremely prone to it, unfortunately. By now Voldemort should know this given that he passed a lot of info to him.

An additional possibility of this is what JKR said about some piece of forshadowing during PoA movie that people will think was purposedly put there but wasn't. Let us remember that Ron has a dream where spider order him to dance tap and he doesn't want to. Just like false Moodie made the spider dance tap during the demonstration in class. I do think we have something here.

Ron is the perfect target for next Voldemort's plan. He is close to Harry, the person he would least suspect short of Hermione and someone who Harry would never get away from or hurt even if he had a suspicion or even a proof. Ron is well placed for some back stabbing and I am sure we'll see it helped unwillingly by some of his darkest jealousy feelings.

I doubt anything come out of this just as the Crucio and the Aveda Kedavra failed in their aims.

Your thoughts?That is a great find, well done. I can see Ron being subjected to such a curse as it would make perfect sense but then again it might be the wrong Weasley, perhaps it is foreshadowing why Percy acted the way he did in OotP.

[SquibOnline]

yup moody did teach harry a lot of things that saved him against voldemort when he (barty crouch jr) was actually working for voldemort

[ravenclaw02]

Hey all. I originally posted this in a thread entitled "Why did Crouch teach Harry to Fight the Imperius Curse?", but that one was closed for being too similar to this one, and we were all directed here, so I thought I'd toss my theory into this thread and see what everyone thought.

I don't think that Crouch Jr. was necessarily teaching Harry to fight the Imperius Curse, I think it was more like he was testing him, to see if he could fight the curse or not. He couldn't just go and outright do it, so he cleverly concealed it within a lesson. He did gain some pretty valuable information out of the whole thing: he learned that Harry isn't particularly succeptable to Imperius, nor is Hermione, but Ron (sadly) can fall under it's influence very easily. It'll be interesting to see if Voldemort puts this knowledge to use later on, won't it?

[Klimatax]

I've been thinking about Barty Crouch Jr. and his teaching and stuff.

He teached Harry how to throw off the Imperius Curse. When Harry meets Voldemort he tries to get Harry to say 'no', but Harry doesn't say it because he was taught how to 'disobey' the curse.

Next thing we know, Harry escapes, Mad Eye Moody is revealed as an imposter and is locked in a tower waiting to be heart by Fudge.
Voldemort knows (I don't know how) what's happening after Harry disappeared (Maybe he sent Malfoy to check out the MoM and maybe Malfoy confinced Fudge to take a dementor with him...??) and sets the dementor to perform the kiss on Crouch Jr, because he had taught Harry how to throw off the curse and this made him look like a weak fool to his DE's.

I think this is what happened because Fudge said something about the dementor acting out of free will and DD saying something about the dementors being the Dark Lord's 'natural allies'.

What are your thoughts on this?

[jenny_d_b]

I think, too, that DD actually wanted them to face the Unforgivable Curses - especially Harry. He saw the signs when Harry told about Trelawney's prophecy in the end of the third book. Also, I think he had a clue for a long time - no doubt that Voldemort was on his way back. So he hired Mad-Eye - not only because he's an Auror, maybe he could get the students to face that they actually WERE in danger - even if no one were trying to attack or kill them right now. DD probably told Moody to somehow consentrate on Harry - because he knew how important he was. DD knows almost everything that's going on in the shcool, so he probably would've known if Moody hadn't taught the how to resist the Unforgivable Curses. But, he don't know everything, or he would've known about the false Moody in the beginning. I think he had a clue, though, remember how he reacted when he found out that Moody was alone with Harry in his office?

[Darynthe]

I have a theory about what the teaching of the curses to the students meant in terms of foreshadowing and also as a testing to imperious curse resistance in the intimate Harry's circle.

Here:
Three curses for three wizards
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=37971

[Godric16]

I think the teaching of the curses would help him to understand, what each did, and maybe if he chose to use one against someone he would be able to pick which would be best to use. He also wanted Harry to Know what was coming, as he knew Voldemort would most certainly use them against Harry.

Or maybe he didn't want Harry being so defenceless against Voldemort, as i'm sure he wouldn't want anyone to face Voldemort Defenceless even the most Evil of Person, well maybe Bellatrix Lestrange when Voldemort was Furious.

[LilCubanita67]

Well, the class is called "Defense Against the Dark Arts". And Barty Crouch as Mady-Eye Moody did say that Dumbledore wanted them to learn about it. (Although there are people who will argue that Dumbledore is crazy and too lenient with the teachers: The madness of Dumbledore (http://groups.msn.com/HarryPotterUltimateFanSite/themadnessofalbusdumbledore.msnw). And when he did use the imperius curse on Harry it was to teach him how to defend against the curse.

There's always a loophole around every curse or charm in the wizarding world. So naturally, there is something you can do to stop the unforgivable curses. Barty/Moody only showed Harry how to stop the Imperius Curse only. I'm convinced there are counterjinxes to stop the Cruciatus Curse and the Avada Kadavra curse as well. Just because older wizards don't know the counterjinx doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

For example, Barty Crouch Jr was under the imperius curse for about 14 or 15 years! Even though he could have fought it off within a couple of minutes just like Harry did.

[asrivathsan]

Ya, it depends on the stregth odf the person and the strength of the one who gives the curse and maybe period of time. "No one is perfect":)

[Tami]

I searched for a topic similar to this... but I didn't find any with this exact question... feel free to lock it etc. if I missed something, this is my first time starting a board :blush:

Okay so my main question is why would Crouch Jr. as Moody teach Harry to defend himself against the Imperious Curse?

In chapter 15 of GoF moody puts the imperious curse on Harry and grows very excited when he fights it,

"Potter, very good indeed! They'll have trouble controlling you!"

Then shortly after we learn that "Moody had insisted on putting Harry through his paces four times in a row, until Harry could throw off the curse entirely"

Now teaching Harry to throw off the curse seems to be a bad idea considering the DE's and LV will no longer be able to control him through this method. We see at the grave yard scene that Harry is able to throw off the curse when LV tries to control him...

"'Answer me! Imperio!' And Harry felt, for the third time in his life, the sensation that his mind had been wiped of all thought....Ah, it was bliss not to think, it was as though he were floating, dreaming...just answer no...say no..just answer no...
I will not, said a stronger voice, in the back of his head, I won't answer...
Just answer no....
I won't do it, I won't say it....
Just answer no....
'I WON'T'
And these words burst from Harry's mouth"

Why would a loyal DE teach Harry Potter of all people how to defy the Dark Lord?

The only solution I have come up with is in chapter 35 we learn that Moody is really Crouch Jr. and Crouch Jr. has been held prisioner in his own home by his father under the Imperious Curse to prevent him from returning to LV. Therefore the only reason I can come up with for Crouch Jr. helping Harry learning to protect himself against the Imperious Curse is because of his own resentment of being controlled. It still seems a dangerous thing to do though, to help the boy who once destroyed your master protect himself.

I would love to hear you guys thoughts on the subject

[Snout]

I think Crouch Jr admires Harry for being able to defeat Voldemort. Also, if he was to be a convincing Moody he had to do the things Moody would do, and as Moody is DADA teacher in GoF he would be bound to teach them how to defend themselves.

[JakeOfRavenclaw]

That's a good theory about him resenting the imperuous cure, I never thought of that!
I was going to say that Moody just wanted to make his facade a little more realistic, but you're theory is much better.

Another solution: JKR simply wanted Harry to be able to resist the imperious curse, and this was the best way she could come up with doing it?.

[SSJ_Jup81]

I can't really say much on this topic (not to the extent you did ^^) but I feel that Crouch Jr just pretty much underestimated Harry's abilities. Harry is young, after all, and throwing off a curse shows to be difficult even to the most experienced and older wizards. He probably never truly imagined that he'd be able to protect himself from it if faced with it since he was just a kid.

My other theory is this...Barty was a nutter from being locked up in the house for way too long, so we have no idea what was going on through that crazed mind of his. I kinda like that theory there, Barty's being crazy. lol

Edit: Oh, another thought. Maybe Barty was just interested in Harry anyway, and what he was capable of. Maybe he was testing Harry's strength and powers or something like that. Maybe this was all amusing to him and wanted to see a real level challenge between Harry and his "master".

[Tami]

I think Crouch Jr admires Harry for being able to defeat Voldemort. Also, if he was to be a convincing Moody he had to do the things Moody would do, and as Moody is DADA teacher in GoF he would be bound to teach them how to defend themselves.

Hmm... that is interesting I think Crouch Jr. may be impressed by Harry's power to destory Voldemort, but as far as him teaching him b/c he must act like Moody... I thought of that and that makes sense to a certain point, but that doesn't explain why he would focus on Harry and continue to put the curse on him until he could throw it off instead of trying to teach some of the other students.

[HeRmIoNe_14]

I think he was doing it to pretend he was a teacher who hid nothing about the real world from young students in telling them what were the really lethal things that waited for them outside, but did not think or occured to him that that might be a problem to controll Harry later

[crystal_joy]

I think Crouch Jr admires Harry for being able to defeat Voldemort. Also, if he was to be a convincing Moody he had to do the things Moody would do, and as Moody is DADA teacher in GoF he would be bound to teach them how to defend themselves.

You're probably right. He may have just admired Harry's talents - good or bad I think a wizard can see talent when it's standing in front of them. As for Crouch trying to be an convincing teacher, was there any reason to teach the class the unforgivable curses? And use the curses on them? I think maybe he was testing Harry's strengths and weaknesses.

[SnapeLova]

i just think that jr was so happy to be out of the house that he was excited to do what he wanted too.

maybe his hatred for authority was so strong that he was kind of living through the students by defying authority and teaching the kids something that was not aloud.

[dawningoftime]

I have to think that it was a bit of everything. I mean I'm sure for one thing he had to have discussed the curriculum with Dumbleddre. Just being out and about after being a virtual prisoner had to have had some affect. Meeting Harry Potter for the first time and seeing how well he did at throwing off a curse such as the one he was under for so long there had to have been a grudging respect for his talents.

[kingwidgit]

I'm not so sure that he was teaching Harry to defend himself as much as he was testing the Boy Who LIved---perhaps so he could pass vital info on to his master, and also to brush up on some skills he may have become rusty with, while rotting in Azkaban, and living under the Imperius Curse. We know that he (Imposter Moody) was in contact with Voldemort; he received an owl from, and sent an owl, to him.

[Black_Lily]

i think Crouch was just acting like Moody, personally. It's a very good point. In order to be a convincing Moody, he had to act like our favorite paranoid auror. and i bet the real Moody would have latched on to the proficiency Harry showed, and make sure he could do it entirely.

[jpmarauder]

The paranoid auror idea is definitely one of it. Crouch Jr. had to be Moody in every persona. I'd also say it was an act of rebellion (not that he was already not a rebel) on Crouch Jr.'s part against his father. After being under the control of Crouch Sr., the younger probably felt a lot of satisfaction performing the Imperius curse on young students who hadn't a clue who he really was even though it was just child's play considering what he had done before.

Just my 0.02.

[Shughla]

Hmm..Inever thougth of it that way...maybe he was trying to test how much Haarry knew so he could inform Voldemort of what Harry was capable of?

[ComicBookWorm]

I think it might have been expected of him. Besides, he was really a DE and not a teacher so maybe all he knew how to teach was Unforgivable Curses. He taught the only thing he did know.

[asrivathsan]

You would find this (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=7156&highlight=Moody) interesting

[rotsiepots]

Hi Tami,

:welcome: to CoS!

This topic is actually being discussed in a thread called Mad Eye Moody and his use of the Unforgivable Curses (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=7156).

I'll merge this thread with the existing topic for you. :)

P.S. The best way to use the search (http://www.cosforums.com/search.php) function is to select "Search titles only" from the pull down menu below the box you type in. Type some generic terms that relate to your topic (eg "Moody" or "Crouch" or "curses" etc) and see what the search engine comes up with. :)

[Mugglelvr]

I think Crouch was acting on his own accord. I'm not sure why he'd want to train Harry up on Unforgiveable Curses, especially since Harry's ability to withstand the Impirius Curse when dueling with Voldemort was one more intimidation factor on Harry side. I think Voldemort was quiet surprised the curse had no effect on Harry.

When Dumbledore, Harry and Krum were by the forest, and Crouch came up just when Dumbledore wanted him, he told everyone that Snape had told him where they were. I think, being the evil little Death Eater that he was, he simply lied. He lied to the students and he lied to Dumbledore. I don't think Dumbledore had a clue what was going on in the DADA class.

You have to say one good thing about Crouch, though. I love that he turned Malfoy into the bouncing ferret. That was classic.

[Nephel]

I think it might have been expected of him. Besides, he was really a DE and not a teacher so maybe all he knew how to teach was Unforgivable Curses. He taught the only thing he did know.

For someone such a young age to master such curses as quickly as Crouch Jnr did, it implies magical knowledge and application; I'm sure Crouch Jnr was aware of alot of curses and spells. I think the reason he chose to teach them the unforgivables was because he was gently forced to by Dumbledore. Dumbledore knew what was around the corner and Mad Eye Moody was probably the only wizard who would want the job.

[Mugglelvr]

For someone such a young age to master such curses as quickly as Crouch Jnr did, it implies magical knowledge and application; I'm sure Crouch Jnr was aware of alot of curses and spells. I think the reason he chose to teach them the unforgivables was because he was gently forced to by Dumbledore. Dumbledore knew what was around the corner and Mad Eye Moody was probably the only wizard who would want the job.

Crouch wasn't all that young. He was sent to Azkaban with Bellatrix LaStrange not long after Voldemort killed the Potter's - so at the time of the story, assuming he was at least 18 when he went to Azkaban, that would make him around 32.