CoSForums Archive - Questions Concerning Veritaserum

samwitch

March 28th, 2003, 5:23 am

i think we'll be seeing a lot more of the veritiserum because if we want sirius to be cleared... yeah!

snape most likely knows a lot of secret passages, most likely ones from his office to other professors offices just in the case of emergencies.

and veritiserum is, i'm pretty sure, a very classified potion where not many people are allowed to have it without lisence or some kind of official permission to use it. after all it can get a lot of people into trouble. i bet snape has it though because he is in such high ranking with dumbledore, not to mention he is an expert at potions who can probably make it a lot easier then most people. so, maybe he doesn't have permission from the ministry to carry it around, but he most likely has permission from dumbledore to use it. after all, dumbledore has pretty much a seperate state of law over hogwarts, rather then the ministry running it.

HbAznKyootie

March 28th, 2003, 5:25 am

One thing that I don't get is why don't they use Veritaserum on Sirius so he could tell the truth? Or use it on a captured Deatheater, so he'll tell the misitry where Voldemort is hiding or some sort of secret plan? Surely, this is an exception to the rules.

samwitch

March 28th, 2003, 5:33 am

i've always wondered that myself. i think it's just that when they captured him and sent him off to azkaban without a trial, it was because how sure they were of his guilt. after all, they dragged him off laughing after killing 13 muggles and a wizard.

he never got a trial or anything. there also might be problems with using veritiserum on people who have been in azkaban because they're most likely mentally unstable and it might not work. plus, because of his escape and elude of officers on top of his murder charges he was supposed to get the KISS, no veritiserum could save him from that.

Mike21

March 28th, 2003, 7:47 am

ive always wondered why they didnt use it on the death eaters who were caught. Prehaps Voldamorte has used some sort of charm on them to make them immune to it?

Jaded_Wanderer

March 28th, 2003, 10:09 am

Well, I think the main problem with Veritaserum is that everybody experiences different "truths," so under the influence of the potion, each person would tell only that information known to them at the time, and their personal interpretation of events taking place around them.

For example, if Veritaserum were given to those who witnessed the Black/Pettigrew incident, their "true" stories would reflect only what they thought they saw - that is, Black blowing up Pettigrew and a street full of people then laughing insanely about it. On the other hand, if it were given to Black or Pettigrew, they would know at least parts of the background of the issue, and would therefore have a more accurate, though still subjective view of what happened.

Barty Crouch Jnr. revealled so much detail not because Veritaserum gives one the ability to access information not previously known, but because of the amount of knowledge he previously possessed.

So, the extent to which Veritaserum can reveal the truth of a situation depends upon the capacity of the person to accurately process things, and the degree of knowledge that they possess.

As for your question about whether or not it will be used in future books, i have no idea...it's possible, but I think if there is a next time, it may demonstrate the negative side to it - maybe Voldemort will get a hold of some, a secret that should not be told is, or maybe even some widely accepted ideas are contradicted (maybe Black is given some, and it turns out he isn't the nice guy afterall...not likely, but a possibility all the same I guess).

smartypants

March 28th, 2003, 10:12 am

Originally posted by HbAznKyootie (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=235111#post235111))
Yeah, I'm thinking that Veritaserum isn't used a lot, because it's hard to make or maybe the Ministry is keeping a close eye on it.

I think Snape even mentions that it's under strick reulation by the ministry, but that Harry should watch it, or a couple of drops could end up by mistake in his pumpkin juice. :)

Mayerlin

March 28th, 2003, 10:35 am

Hi everyone!

This is my first post ever here.
I just wanted to draw a parallel between Veritaserum and Wolfsbane Potion.

When Remus Lupin was a pupil at Hogwarts, he had to go to the Shrieking Shack every month at the moment when he turned into a werewolf.

At that time, Wolfsbane potion which helps him not becoming a murderous wolf, did not exist.

Lupin says that it's a recent discovery and he needs Snape to make it for him because he himself is not good enough at Potions to brew it correctly. Lupin adds that very few wizards can make the Wolfsbane Potion and Snape is one of those rare experts.

To go back to Veritaserum, it could follow the same pattern.
At the time when the Death Eaters were caught and judged, that powerful and very useful potion had probably not been invented yet.

Moreover, Veritaserum is certainly not a potion that any wizard could make. It may be a difficult recipe, you may need very special ingredients that are not on sale at your local apothecary...

I mean, I imagine Veritaserum as a difficult potion to make:

because it takes as much time as the PolyJuice for example
Because you can't find the ingredients in every shop
Because the use of such a potion is restricted by wizarding law
Because it takes an expert to succeed in making it, any mistake and it turns into a poison...

Finally, Harry, Ron and Hermione learn how to make the PolyJuice potion in a book called Moste Potente Potions which is placed in the Restricted Section of their library. I think you could find Veritaserum in that book.

Its use is not widespread in the wizarding world because you just don't spend your days playing around with dangerous things that could be related to Dark Magic.

Guardian Angel

March 28th, 2003, 11:09 am

I always thought that Ministry of Magic should have used the Veritaserum during the trials for Deatheaters. That way they would know everything that Voldemort's supporters knew about him, that way a lot of misteries could be solved, that way nobody could lie... And most improtant of all, Sirius would be free...
But, I guess that Veritaserum is too powerfull for using like that...Or so rare!

smartypants

March 28th, 2003, 1:12 pm

Originally posted by Mayerlin (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=236090#post236090))
Finally, Harry, Ron and Hermione learn how to make the PolyJuice potion in a book called Moste Potente Potions which is placed in the Restricted Section of their library. I think you could find Veritaserum in that book.

But then it wouldn't be a recent discovery, because that book seems quite olde. ;)

But otherwise you make good points.

Ashkins

March 28th, 2003, 3:14 pm

Even with the serum you might not get the truth of what happened. While on the serum yes you tell the truth but the truth as you know it. If you really beleive you saw something with your own eye it is truth to you. Even if people tell you they saw the same thing but it didn't happen the way you saw it. Everyone sees things from a different angle and point of view.

Guardian Angel

March 28th, 2003, 4:39 pm

Yeah,that is true, but some of the Voldemort's supporters knew what he was going to do next, they knew who they tortured, they knew who they killed... They knew what they did.

Hpmons

March 28th, 2003, 5:24 pm

As we have seen, you only tell the truth of how you believe it. That is how Fudge was mistaken. Cruch Jr said that Voldermort wanted him to help him, but Fudge believed that he was unhinged so in Fudge's opinion Crouch believed what he was saying, even though it wasnt true.

Possible there is some dark magic that can prevent the Vertiserum from working; or it has side effects; otherwise they would have used it on many DEs, and might have also questioned students 52yrs ago about the CoS.

Guardian Angel

March 28th, 2003, 9:31 pm

What do you think how long does it long? I mean - from the moment you drink it until you stop talking the truth...

Celestina Warbeck

March 28th, 2003, 10:03 pm

I guess the amount of time it lasts depends on the amount that is given to the person. Dumbledore gave Crouch Jr only a few drops, and that lasted about an hour or two...

Guardian Angel

March 28th, 2003, 10:12 pm

Celestina - I think you're not allowed to have 2 images in your sig. You better choose one of those two! :)

Back on topic:
YOnly a few drops made Crouch to talk for an hour... What would happen if one would drink the whole bottle? :wow:

Celestina Warbeck

March 28th, 2003, 10:22 pm

I wouldn't want to be the one the potion was used on. :dead:

Buff

March 29th, 2003, 7:30 am

The fact that the serum wasn't used to glean whatever information that the Death Eaters and Sirius "knew", yet was available at Hogwarts during GoF indicates to me that it's a recent discovery. Dumbledore is a very fair man (giving second chances to those that other's wouldn't... ie Snape) plus he has a lot of clout at the MoM... that right there tells me that if it were available at or around Voldemort's downfall it would have been used.

QueenGumby.... Kudos.... excellent points!!!!

Figwit

March 29th, 2003, 10:10 am

The veritaserum potion issue started bugging me the second Snape mentioned it. I thought maybe he was just messing with Harry's head at first but he wasn't.

Why interrogate all the Death Eaters for days and days? just give them the serum. Crouch was obsessed enough to authorise the use of veritaserum on them I'm sure.
There aren't any innocents in jail, no criminals are let free. Do they even have courts? judges? what for? "unimportant" things like under age wizardry?

Something like this has a huge impact on society.

:banghead:

Hpmons

March 29th, 2003, 2:02 pm

Maybe its just one of those things... I mean, if theVertiserum was used like that; it would ruin all of the books. They would be able to question Lupin, Black, and Pettergrew to find whether any of them were on Vols side before doing the fidelis spell; and then the parents would have survived, Harry wouldnt have his scar, and he wouldnt be famous, loads of DEs would be put in Azkaban, and probably this chain of events could allow Voldermort to be kill in the first place, with no extra deaths and no extra hassle.

But then it would be quite a boring book.

Guardian Angel

March 29th, 2003, 2:06 pm

We saw what JKR does with all of her magic objects... Time Turner, Pensieve, Marauder's Map, Veritaserum... She made so many powerfull things that could be used any time, but instead of that she just skip them. Or maybe JKR just forgot to use them again.

Figwit

March 29th, 2003, 3:54 pm

Exactly. I always found it a bit odd that a few students are able to create something as powerful as the Marauder's Map whille Dumby and friends are panicking because Sirius managed to get in and they don't know how. or that a student was given a Time Turner just so she can make it to all her classes (where was that time turner when Harry's parents were dying? Cedric?)

She uses these items as simple plot devices when they can turn around everything that happened in the books... I guess this is where I shrug and say "It's a children's book after all"

Hpmons

March 29th, 2003, 5:52 pm

Its like real life in a way, sometimes you do something really stupid, or really complicatedly; and afterwards you found out that you could have done something really simple, and hassle free...

Ahh...The joys of life

smartypants

March 30th, 2003, 12:28 pm

About the time turner: You can't change what has already happened by going back in time. That's said in the book.

If you go back one hour in time, then you have already been there and done what you did one hour ago, ahen you go back to do it. :)

Figwit

March 31st, 2003, 1:51 am

It says that about the time turner? then why did the kids have to hide from themselves in the past? :??:

Potter80

March 31st, 2003, 1:57 am

I hope snape never gives that potion to Harry.

smartypants

March 31st, 2003, 10:19 am

Originally posted by Figwit (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=241548#post241548))
It says that about the time turner? then why did the kids have to hide from themselves in the past? :??:

Yes, it sais that about the time turner. It also sais why they tried to hide from themselves. What would your reaction be if you suddenly saw yourself? Harry answers that he would think there was some dark magic involved, and Hermione says that many wizards have ended up killing their future of past selves by mistake.

When you read the book you will notice that when Hermione and Harry went back to the future, they changed nothing. The events that took place where the exact same both times. Nothing changed.

This is off topic though, there must be a thread about this somewhere else...

Ah, here for example. http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3667&highlight=timeturner

Celestina Warbeck

March 31st, 2003, 10:21 pm

Back on the subject, I wonder precisely around WHAT time period was veritaserum invented? I think it might have been just after Voldemort's downfall, but so far there has been nothing to prove this...

Michelle

May 10th, 2003, 12:54 am

If somebody wanted a person to tell the truth couldn't they cast Imperio on them and command them to tell the truth? I know that this is an unforgivable but couldn't there be a special law permitting its use just in these cases instead of having a different thing. I sense that this is probably an idiotic question but I was thinking about it and so I decided to post a thread on it...

Lestrange

May 10th, 2003, 1:22 am

Actually, they don't even use the truth serum in courts or anything, I suppose because it would be too much like controlling someone, like an Unforgivable Curse. It's against wizard law, I think, to use them.

I always thought that if the wizards don't even want to make someone tell the truth with a little potion, I doubt that they would want to do something like an Unforgivable Curse...It seems wrong to them, I guess.

But come to think of it, if you would use the Imperious (sp) Curse on someone, would you get the real truth or what the Imperiouscurse-user wants to be the truth? ...hmmm...

dorcasderr

May 10th, 2003, 1:42 am

If Imperio is an unforgiveable curse and veritaserum is not unforgiveable then there is your answer right there. besides, we don't know which came first...

Daily Propheter

May 10th, 2003, 2:59 am

Imperio can be fought off as well, so you can't be certain if you're getting the real answer, or a lie, if the curse was broken. Veritaserum isn't illegal, for one thing, and (as far as we can tell) can't be fought off, so you can be sure what he/she is saying is the truth.

DocHollidaywe

May 10th, 2003, 6:05 am

I think the biggest reason is because the curse is unforgivable to all at all times, and like it was nentioned Imperious can be fought

tabby

May 10th, 2003, 12:31 pm

Using a potion is easier. All you have to do is get it down their throats and your home free. You don't have to be a particularly accomplished witch or wizard. Nor do the courts have to encourage the teaching of an unforgivable curse. That would be like our courts teaching someone how to murder. Not a smart idea.

I'm not even sure if you could get the truth using the Imperio curse. It gets the victim to act how you want them too, and say what you want them to say. In both cases you have to give specific directions. Ordering the to "Say the truth" isn't a specific direction. I don't think it would work.

Sorting Hat's Songwriter

May 10th, 2003, 1:08 pm

yes i agree it would be hard to get the truth out of someone under the imperious curse. You'd have to press for the actual truth. Veritaserum is also controlled by the MoM, but it's far more forgivable than imperious. Plus, it'd get dull if the imprious curse was used for everything!!!!

Althea

May 10th, 2003, 1:31 pm

By using the Imperius Curse, wizards with really powerful will (you know what I mean!) could at least try to fight it. So, why take the risk?

I think the Veritaserum could work much much better than the Imperius curse.

:angel:

GrangerGal

May 10th, 2003, 2:28 pm

I have another question along these lines... couldnt they have used Veritaserum in the trials to figure out who was acting under the Imperius curse and who was using their free will during the Dark Years?

Alastor D

May 10th, 2003, 3:23 pm

Do we know when Veritaserum was invented? What if it's recently developed and wasn't available in the days of the pensieve trials?

I agree with those who said Veritaserum ought to be a more reliable way to get the truth than Imperius.

H0gwartz

May 10th, 2003, 3:25 pm

i dunno, but oh well it was used for a good purpose

onetruegryffindor

May 10th, 2003, 3:39 pm

i think they should use veritaserum more often, some people lie too often to be trusted and you would be able to sort alot of problems out if people knew you were telling the truth and you knew they were too

Kneazle

May 11th, 2003, 12:57 am

I have merged the thread "Is Veritaserum necessary?" into a previous thread about the potion. :)

Weatherby

May 11th, 2003, 10:13 am

I don't think they should use it unless it's really necessary such as the Crouch jr. case.
It would be wrong to use on students such as Snape suggested.

Barbara Kennedy

May 11th, 2003, 6:01 pm

Veritaserum is very invasive and degrading. It holds a potential for being abused in the wrong hands. It is not evil in itself but the potential evil uses should not be ignored.
Yes, it has good uses but should it be used routinely?

Michelle

May 11th, 2003, 10:25 pm

I am also wondering, if someone has the potential to fight the Imperius curse, can't there be persons who can fight Veritaserum?

smartypants

May 12th, 2003, 10:29 am

Originally posted by Lestrange (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=312066#post312066))
Actually, they don't even use the truth serum in courts or anything, I suppose because it would be too much like controlling someone, like an Unforgivable Curse. It's against wizard law, I think, to use them.

According to Snape, Veritaserum is under strict control by the MoM. The use if it on Crouch Jr is therefore most likely illegal, and shows that Dumbledore & Co probably was worried that Fudge to try to bury the whole thing instead of questioning him properly.

RemusLupin

May 12th, 2003, 1:27 pm

Yes, I don't think you can use the Imperius curse to know the truth--that can be fought and if the person did manage to fight it and lie then that would be catastrophic.

Originally posted by smartypants (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=316294#post316294))
According to Snape, Veritaserum is under strict control by the MoM. The use if it on Crouch Jr is therefore most likely illegal, and shows that Dumbledore & Co probably was worried that Fudge to try to bury the whole thing instead of questioning him properly.

Guess so. But DD and co. had a pretty good reason, didn't they? Fudge is so narrow-minded.

I guess Veritaserum wasn't invented back then, so the MoM couldn't use it. If it was, then I can't see any reason for it not to be used... (If we only new when it was invented... Probably in JKR's famous notebooks... I :censored: wish I could take a peek at those!)

GrangerGal

May 12th, 2003, 9:17 pm

But what about in court cases such as the ones after the dark years when they were trying to find those who helped Voldemort willingly and those who didn't. I am pretty liberal and I really believe in respecting other people's rights but lying on the stand is a crime as well. It would make things SO much easier although I agree with Barbara that in the wrong hands it could become deadly.

smartypants

May 16th, 2003, 4:13 pm

Being subjected to Veritaserum, must reasonably be equalled with being subjected to a court. It's not a question of being interrogated, since you can't lie.

So to use Veritaserum on, say, Lucius Malfoy, they would basically have to drag him to court. He was already freed once, and you can't reopen a court case without good reasons in most justice systems.

Everybody, not only those guilty, would be scared of Veritaserum, since almost everybody have some secrets, great or small.

GrangerGal

May 16th, 2003, 8:33 pm

I actually was not suggesting to reopen a case. We do not know if in the wizarding world there is double jeopardy or not and if there is than they cannot reopen the case. What I meant is could they use it and should they use it in court. I cant decide if I think it is wrong or right.
Anyway they could reopen the case they could force him into court. If someone refuses to act as a witness they could subpoena someone which means they are summoned to the court. It is illegal to avoid court. Also they could be in contempt of court if they do not respond. If they lie they will be committing purjury (lying under oath) These are all considered crimes b/c they prevent the court from reaching justice.

zent

May 16th, 2003, 8:43 pm

Perhaps the questions, while under the influence of Veritaserum, should be restricted to only questions that directly pertain to the crime, and only used in serious crimes, i.e:

"Did you work for Lord Voldemort?"

"Have you used an Unforgiveable Curse on another person, and for what reason?"

"Why did you do what you did?"

Mayerlin

May 16th, 2003, 8:44 pm

This sounds very much like the American legal system. I'm not a specialist in law and I don't question what you say at all but Harry's adventures take place in Great Britain, there certainly are major differences in the two legislations.

The use of Veritaserum is strictly controlled but it may very well be used in future books when Death eaters will be arrested and judged. I think that if it wasn't used before, it's because the potion had not been invented.

smartypants

May 19th, 2003, 10:16 am

The magical legal system doesn't seem to have that much in common with the common British legal system anyway...

But yes, I can't see why it wouldn't be used if it existed, so I'm also on the theory that it's a recent invention. Who knows, maybe Snape is one of the inventors. That would explain why he has some. :)

Barbara Kennedy

May 19th, 2003, 5:15 pm

I don't think Snape has any time to research and develop any potions [see the thread regarding Lupin's Potion], not that he probably wouldn't like to. The fact remains that he is skilled enough to brew about any potion you could come up with.

smartypants

May 19th, 2003, 5:43 pm

Hey, he has summers off, doesn't he? What do they teachers do then?

I got this little idea that Hogwarts during the summer is home to international wizard conferences (The fanfic on this is gone, it seems). I can definitely picture Snape spending most of his free time on Hogwarts for a couple of years with developing Veritaserum just so he can show off during one of these conferences. ;)

dorcasderr

May 19th, 2003, 7:26 pm

What a hilarious idea! It also points to...if true...Veritaserum being only a recent invention. Of course, they don't tell us, but it does make sense that it IS recent, because of the incidences in the past where it was NOT used and certainly would have been most useful.

Girl

May 19th, 2003, 9:35 pm

I too think that Veritaserum must have been a recent invention. Otherwise why was it not used in the Death Eater trials? It would have been very useful then.
Maybe there is some law about using it. But then Dumbledore would have been breaking the law. So the only reason is that it's a new invention. Maybe Snap invented it during his free time or when he way trying out new posions.

GrangerGal

May 31st, 2003, 12:10 am

Teachers usually work during their summers, or develop their curriculum for the next year, or go to graduate school to further their degrees. In fact, I do all three with my summers. I am working (5 to 8 hours a day), going to 3 grad school classes every night and over two weekends, and working on next year's unit plans. Also many teachers teach summer school or run camps. A few teachers who do not need the extra income and have finished their degrees may vacation but no one I work with is doing that. So it is QUITE possible that he might not have time to develop potions unless of course he was using his summers to return for a doctorate and his final thesis is "Ways to Force the Truth Out of a Person Using Potions." That could be interesting!

Anyway I think SmartyPants could be right that it is a relatively new potion. Also I still think that in many Judicial systems (although I could be wrong) avoiding court is a crime of some sort. It may have different names obviously. I am almost positive that Witness in Britian can be called to testify even against their will. Although again I could be wrong. So the new question is - is it morally wrong to force someone to tell the truth or is it morally wrong NOT to!? Hummmm.... And if we were to use this potion how should it be controlled in court!?

AmanitaMuscaria

May 31st, 2003, 12:48 am

I reckon the person who thought Veritaserum may be a new invention may be right, but I think there's a basic difference with the wizard world - it appears quite anarchic. You've got the Ministry, but people seem to bend the rules as they like, and make up laws, without much fuss or repercussion - was it Mundungus Fletcher who aimed a curse at Mr.Weasley in one of hte books?
Also, getting the 'truth' depends on the questions asked, and we're told many wizards don't have an ounce of logic (Hermione in CoS). So if you're acting under Imperiatus curse, you would answer 'yes, I was working for Voldemort and killed so-and-so' quite truthfully.
Cheers

GrangerGal

May 31st, 2003, 1:17 am

But if you were asked "Were you WILLINGLY working for Voldemort?" than the answer would be different. The point of the curse is to make people do things that they are NOT willing to do. Also one could ask "Do you believe in Voldemort's beliefs and follow them?" or "Did you willing do Voldemort's deeds for him?" Or "Were you forced to perform the following crimes?" Veritaserum would make the person admitt if they were acting under their own free will or being forced to.

Barbara Kennedy

June 3rd, 2003, 10:48 am

But the veritaserum may be ineffective in cases where the person's memory has been Obliviated. You cannot tell the truth or lie if you don't have any idea which is which.

Weatherby

June 3rd, 2003, 11:06 am

That's a good point Barbara.
I'm wondering if the potion is more effective than a lie detector test.
To quote George on Seinfeld - "It's not a lie if you believe it."
Would the potion prevent people who believe their own versions from telling the incorrect events?

Mayerlin

June 3rd, 2003, 12:11 pm

If I remember well, Dumbledore himself says that someone under the effect of veritaserum only tells the truth he knows which means in my opinion that if the questionned person strongly believes what he says is true, he will tell lies and incorrect facts even with the potion

smartypants

June 3rd, 2003, 1:25 pm

Well it is a TRUTH serum, not a FACT serum. You can obviously not give the facts, only what you believe to be the facts, ie, the truth.

GrangerGal

June 7th, 2003, 7:19 pm

Barbara Kennedy said "But the veritaserum may be ineffective in cases where the person's memory has been Obliviated"

I agree with you but we know from Bertha that we can break memory spells even the best ones!

Barbara Kennedy

June 14th, 2003, 12:09 am

Yes, memory spells can be broken, but you risk breaking the person's mind as well.

Pucko

June 15th, 2003, 11:41 am

Doggy

June 15th, 2003, 2:54 pm

If they can resist the curse they would probably say that (name) tried to put them under it, but that it failed.

If they were under it, on the other hand... hmm.. good point, never thought of that. I always thought (until you pointed it out) that they would tell. But now...

Their answers would probably be very vague, and not much to trust, stuff like "I think..." "I don't remember..." etc - but on the other hand, Avery "wormed his way out" by saying he was under the imperius curse. Did they use veritaserum then?

Ousley

June 15th, 2003, 10:40 pm

It's possible that one reason that it isn't used often is because there's too much of a chance there'd be a spell invented that you put on yourself where it the Veritaserum doesn't work on you. The only thing is that you'd have to do it way ahead of time, because obviously they'd know if you did it in the room at the time. ;)

red_fairy

July 10th, 2004, 6:08 am

I would like to know what happends if a person has been under the Imperius Curse, and they are given Veritaserum...would they say everything they have done under the imperius curse, or would they say that they have been under the imperius curse? or maybe that depends on how strong they are (if they can resist the curse or not)

That's a big fat paradox!

Veritaserum is probably new, unless it is like a lie detector test. You are getting the truth out of a person, what they believe so it may not be completely accurate, just like a lie detector test isn't completely accurate.