CoSForums Archive - Why didn't Jesus just "fix" the world?

HogwartsChaplain

March 30th, 2003, 3:19 am

This is a very deep question-- one that faithful Christians have wrestled with for millenia. What follows isn't a definitive answer, but it did happen to be what I'd already been working on as part of my homily/sermon for worship tomorrow morning. I hope it might help some.

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FIRST READING: Numbers 21: 4-9, New Revised Standard Version

"From Mount Hor [the Israelites] set out by the way to the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; but the people became impatient on the way. The people spoke against God and against Moses, "Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we detest this miserable food." Then the Lord sent poisonous serpents among the people, and they bit the people, so that many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, "We have sinned by speaking against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord to take away the serpents from us." So Moses prayed for the people. And the Lord said to Moses, "Make a poisonous serpent, and set it on a pole; and everyone who is bitten shall look at it and live." So Moses made a serpent of bronze, and put it upon a pole; and whenever a serpent bit someone, that person would lokk at the serpent of bronze and live."

GOSPEL READING: John 3: 14-15

[Jesus said:] "Just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life."

In every crowd, there are likely to be a few people who donâ€™t like snakes. If we polled everyone here, Iâ€™m sure weâ€™d find a few who would rather never see a snake. I expect that among the Israelites out in the desert with Moses there were a few who didnâ€™t like snakes, too. Especially the poisonous snakes that were killing them.

Moses prayed and asked for just what the people wanted, that God would take those snakes away. God had the power to remove the snakes, and that would seem like a good thing, but that wasnâ€™t what God did. God told Moses to make a symbol of the snake and set it on a pole. Everyone who looked up at that snake would be healed of their snakebite and live.

But they had to look at it. They had to look at that snakeâ€” the same kind of thing that was causing them pain and deathâ€” and believe that God would cause a different result. It didnâ€™t matter whether they liked or disliked snakes; they still had to look at that bronze snake, up on a pole, to live.

We donâ€™t need to look at a snake. But God calls us to look at something that at first glance is even worseâ€” Jesus, the Son of God, lifted high above us, dead on the cross. We are called to look death in the eye, so that we might live.

Sometimes we think that if God would just listen to our prayers, and take away all the problems we experience, this would be a much better world. Rather than sending Jesus to be lifted up on the cross, couldnâ€™t God remove our desire to sin? Couldnâ€™t God remove all the diseases and sicknesses and troubles and pain we experience? Couldnâ€™t God just remove death?

God does listen to us, but God has a different solution. Trouble still exists in our world. Terminal diseases still afflict people. Accidents still happen. People still havenâ€™t learned to get along with one anotherâ€” they get angry, they fight, they kill, they wage war. Often the life we now live seems like a wilderness experience. Itâ€™s difficult. Life isnâ€™t always pleasant.

What God promises for all people, suffering or not, is that by looking at this Human One dead on the cross, we are promised eternal lifeâ€” not an immediate end to our suffering on earth.

May we all continue to look up to Jesus, our lamb of Calvary.

My faith looks up to thee,
Thou Lamb of Calvary,
Savior divine!
Now hear me while I pray,
Take all my guilt away,
Oh, let me from this day
Be wholly thine.

May thy rich grace impart
Strength to my fainting heart,
My zeal inspire;
As thou hast died for me,
Oh, may my love to thee
Pure, warm and changeless be,
A living fire.

While life's dark maze I tread
And griefs around me spread,
Be thou my guide;
Bid darkness turn to day,
Wipe sorrow's tears away,
Nor let me ever stray
From thee aside.

When ends life's transient dream,
When death's cold sullen stream
Shall o'er me roll;
Blest Savior, then, in love
Fear and distrust remove;
Oh, bear me safe above,
A ransomed soul!
~ Ray Palmer, 1808-1887

Sherlock Holmes

March 30th, 2003, 1:53 pm

Good luck with the sermon, Evelyn! It sounds good...

Your post reminds me of one of the stories from C.S. Lewis' Chronicles of Narnia books. In The Magician's Nephew, the main character is a boy named Diggory whose mother is very sick. At the end of the story, after Aslan the lion (who is the representation of Jesus Christ) has created Narnia, He sends Diggory to fetch an apple from a special tree to protect Narnia from evil.

While there, Diggory finds out that the apples can heal and grant very long life. He is strongly tempted to steal one more and take it back to his mother. But he resists, and when he returns, Aslan tells him that, indeed, the apple would have healed his mother. But he goes on to say that, had fate followed the particular path, there would have come a time when both Diggory and his mother would say that it would have been better to let her die.

And Diggory understands that there are some things worse than death. Which shows to me that often it's a case of us not knowing enough: there are reasons why this world is the way it is, but we don't know what those reasons are, or all of them. Which is the function of faith: we know what God has done in the past, and how He has demonstrated His wisdom and planning, thus we have reason to have faith in His plans for the present and future, however foggy they may look at the moment.

If you're not going to read The Magician's Nephew:
And oh yeah, Diggory's mother lives after all. :)

Perdita

March 30th, 2003, 3:33 pm

I don't know if I am understanding this correctly, but I always thought that one cannot take away something that one did not give or create.

I always thought that the suffering people experience, such as war and murder, was not something that God created. And because of that, it does not make sense to ask God to take the suffering away. Instead, people should help those who inflict harm to understand why their actions are wrong.

But then this does not apply to cases where people get sick. Nobody wants to suffer of cancer, and nobody inflicts cancer on another person...so this is the part where I don't know how to make sense out of it.

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Edit: Forgot to mention, Evelyn, that was a beautiful sermon. Thanks for sharing it with us.

HogwartsChaplain

March 30th, 2003, 7:20 pm

Thank you. Thank God!

FYI, the homily I posted was one of four that I did this morning-- a short sermon on each of the four scripture texts, with hymns in between. It was well-received. :)

Snowangel

March 31st, 2003, 11:14 pm

This is one of the most difficult questions that I've had to struggle with and, to tell you the truth, I have absolutely no answer for it. It's one of the reasons that I have a lot of trouble believing in a God that is good and powerful and the rest of it ( I wouldn't say it's the reason I don't believe but it's certainly had an influence on me). I've decided that, given the way the world is, if there is a God, he/she/it cannot be perfect, cannot be entirely good in the way that we generally picture "goodness". If there is a God, there's more to him/her/it than that. But, being an agnostic of sorts, I don't really know what the nature of a God could possibly be like. I can't claim knowledge of any kind.

SnowyOwl

April 1st, 2003, 5:35 pm

Evelyn, I enjoyed your post. I am one of those who prefer to look at snakes only if they happen to be in a glass case at the zoo. ;)

I believe that in our eternal progression we had reached a level to where we needed a different situation in which to grow and develop. Much like when a child reaches adulthood, they need to leave their parent's home and learn things for themselves. A truly loving parent would allow their grown child to make their choices, but would be there for them to love, help if required, and commiserate with difficulties.
As far as Earth life being less-than-perfect, there needs to be opposition in all things so we can make choices. We must make choices if we are to grow. If all bad things were removed there would be little point for us coming to Earth. We would not be able to grow, to make decisions when it is hard, to overcome troubles and to learn to treat each other like true brothers and sisters.

I believe that we knew that Earth life would be difficult and chose to come anyway. Best of all, our Heavenly Father will help us at any time.

Silk E Smooth

April 19th, 2003, 9:39 am

Jesus wasn't sent here to fix us. He was sent to remind us of our choices. There doesn't have to be evil in the world. It is here because we choose for it to be. Jesus was a carpender. He build hopes and dreams and taught the word of God. He was sent to remind us that it is our choices that build our character and make us who we are. Not everyone will make the same choice. Evil is just another challenge in this world that you can either pass or fail. Weakness, desperation... it's our choice.

triki1988

April 21st, 2003, 7:04 pm

I always thought that he didn't fix the world because if he created us to be like him, then he expected us to try to fix it ourselves.

Melissa_Potter

April 27th, 2003, 9:08 am

Jesus can fix some things but not everything. We live on Earth so we must fix the mistakes we made on our own. But if it is almost impossible to solve I guess Jesus and help from God, can steer us in the right path and make a smart solution

j_thunders

April 27th, 2003, 6:56 pm

Because, like you said, God gave us free will. When he "created the world and all mankind", he gave us the gift of choice. We abused that priviledge, supposedly. So there became consequences for our actions. Bad ones and good. I'm glad Jesus didn't fix everything. And he could have, because even though he was human, he was also divine. He was God. If he had fixed everything, we would have been like puppets. It's like someone else having control of your brain. We could have been that way in the first place, but God made us in his image and had faith that we would make the right choices. That's the best way I can put it.

I hope when you took of your cross necklace, it wasn't a permanent decision. I hope you'd reconsider. Just think: When's the last time a living, breathing, human being with feelings and emotions, the ability to feel pain and happiness, to be scared and brave, to laugh or cry, gave their life for you without even knowing you? That is love.

And before you answer something like "the soldiers in Iraq", consider that Jesus never used violence to solve problems.

HPviolinist85

April 29th, 2003, 3:49 am

Jesus was a human just like us. He was able to perform miracles, and he tried to make people see, but they crucified him and didn't believe he was the son of man until he rose from the dead. Still people don't believe. He TRIED to fix things but no one listened. He accually fixed things pretty well. He did save us, didn't he? I hate the idea of blaming God for everything bad in the world. It wasn't his fault. It was Adam and Eve's fault. They ate off the tree of knowlege releasing evil into the world. God told them not to do it, but they did it anyway because humans aren't perfect and don't know what's good for them.

j_thunders

April 29th, 2003, 10:48 pm

Originally posted by HPviolinist85 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=295698#post295698))
I hate the idea of blaming God for everything bad in the world. It wasn't his fault. It was Adam and Eve's fault. They ate off the tree of knowlege releasing evil into the world. God told them not to do it, but they did it anyway because humans aren't perfect and don't know what's good for them.

I was with you until the 3rd sentence. Adam and Eve didn't actually exist. They are just a symbol for the many people who did sin, and in effect caused us all to be born with original sin.
I do agree that it isn't right to blame God everytime something bad happens, since he is the source of all that is good as opposed to evil. But it also isn't right to blame the sinners who caused God to make the world imperfect, because unless you yourself are free of all sin, you deserve the blame as well, as do I and everyone else I know.

Annerach

May 1st, 2003, 10:37 pm

Well, that is one of the reasons I think that the entire god idea (I.E Benevolent, all-knowing, all-powerful) Is wrong. If he is all powerful, he can't be benevolent because innocent people still suffer needlessly all over the world. When you look at the world in an atheistic sense, (You know, no gods, no jesus) things make SO much more sense. Try it for a day. Let's pretend, just for a moment, that a god really exists. I don't really think that I would look up to it or want to worship it at all because if it is all powerful, and it is still letting peple suffer, I don't think it deserves my respect. Oh, and j thunders, How are you not like a puppet now? You will still do anything your god tells you to, for fear of being thrown in hell, won't you? And instead of trying to find the truth, you just follow what some ancient storybook says because some mythological god told you to, don't you? And I hope that your rejection of faith WAS permanent. For your sake. It is very liberating to not be trapped like religious people are. I wish you the best of luck. You should read "Demon Haunted World" by Carl Sagan. It's very enlightening.

j_thunders

May 1st, 2003, 11:22 pm

Originally posted by Annerach (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=299774#post299774))
Oh, and j thunders, How are you not like a puppet now? You will still do anything your god tells you to, for fear of being thrown in hell, won't you? And instead of trying to find the truth, you just follow what some ancient storybook says because some mythological god told you to, don't you?

Well, no, because I sin a lot and I'm not perfect. I don't know anyone who is. If I did everything that "God tells me to" :rolleyes: I'd probably be in Africa trying to give food and shelter to poor, starving, homeless children. But I'm not. I'm here sitting on my *** doing nothing. I'm a materialistic and superficial human being. Is that what you want to hear? I'm also shallow. I only make friends with pretty people. And I like to skip Church whenever I can. Yay for me and my dead God. Throw me into the fiery pits of hell, I don't care.

Edit: I don't care if you believe in God or not. That's not what I judge a good person on. But I do believe in God, and I've gotten a lot of **** from people over the years because I do. I don't do the same to other people. I don't see why people feel the need to convert each other to a desired religion (or absence of religion).

jennymac

May 12th, 2003, 5:36 am

from what i understand, by eatting the apple, adam and eve decided that they did not need god. humans decided they did not need god. so god let us find out what it was like to live without a god. he gave us phophets and teachings to follow if we so choose. what has happened to the world is a result of people thinking they do not need god or from taking his word and twisting it to fit their desires. god has let this go on so long because he knew that it would take years, many trails and errors, for us to realize we could NEVER perfectly govern ourselves. just look at how many governments have fallen in history. he sent us jesus to help guide us back to him, because we got so far off track. jesus was divine yes, but he was also human. he was only here as our guide. and jesus knew that.

Annerach

May 13th, 2003, 10:33 pm

Originally posted by j_thunders (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=299874#post299874))
Well, no, because I sin a lot and I'm not perfect. I don't know anyone who is. If I did everything that "God tells me to" :rolleyes: I'd probably be in Africa trying to give food and shelter to poor, starving, homeless children. But I'm not. I'm here sitting on my *** doing nothing. I'm a materialistic and superficial human being. Is that what you want to hear? I'm also shallow. I only make friends with pretty people. And I like to skip Church whenever I can. Yay for me and my dead God. Throw me into the fiery pits of hell, I don't care.

Edit: I don't care if you believe in God or not. That's not what I judge a good person on. But I do believe in God, and I've gotten a lot of **** from people over the years because I do. I don't do the same to other people. I don't see why people feel the need to convert each other to a desired religion (or absence of religion).

I think you've misunderstood me. I am baffled at the moment by religious things and was trying to understand your point of view. I don't care what you believe in and trying to de-convert you would be to descend to the levels of the people who try to "Save" me. Sorry you took it the wrong way.

j_thunders

May 13th, 2003, 11:13 pm

Originally posted by Annerach (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=318653#post318653))
I think you've misunderstood me. I am baffled at the moment by religious things and was trying to understand your point of view. I don't care what you believe in and trying to de-convert you would be to descend to the levels of the people who try to "Save" me. Sorry you took it the wrong way.

I'm sorry I freaked out. :o

Annerach

May 13th, 2003, 11:27 pm

It's understandable.

Chalice

May 14th, 2003, 1:33 pm

There wouldn't be any point us being here if Jesus could just fix everything for us. It's too easy, and we're not supposed to have the easy way out. We're supposed to sort things out ourselves, that's what we're here for. Jesus just came along to point us in the right direction, IF people wanted to listen to him. Besides, why should he have to clear up our mess, we made it! Think of it as a parent/child relationship. Sooner or later children have to stand on their own feet. You can guide them and be there for them but ultimately they have to sort themselves out.

Chalice.

'A dragon is no idle fancy. Even today you may find men not ignorant of tragic legend and history, who have heard of heroes or even seen them, who have yet been caught by the fascination of the worm.'
J.R.R Tolkien

Phyre

May 19th, 2003, 2:01 am

We have our own free will because life without it is not worth living. We'd be machines. If Jesus just "fixed" the Earth, with people as they are...he'd have to come back every couple of years. Jesus made himself an example. Hoping we would learn.
Gradually people have learned a great deal and are progressing in many ways. Degenerating in others.
You can look at it in they way of teaching a man to fish.
He will never go hungry. He learns to live.
But if you do it for him what does he learn? Nothing, and without you being there constantly he would die.

LewsTherin

May 19th, 2003, 5:17 am

Originally posted by Annerach (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=299774#post299774))
Oh, and j thunders, How are you not like a puppet now? You will still do anything your god tells you to, for fear of being thrown in hell, won't you? And instead of trying to find the truth, you just follow what some ancient storybook says because some mythological god told you to, don't you?
That's a misconception. God does not order people to do anything, and if you don't want to obey you don't have to. Some obey out of fear, yes, but they're missing it. You should obey because you want to, and that's what most Christians do. God will not throw you into Hell just because you won't do something (speaking about Christians here). All that happens then is that you miss out on what he has for you (which is a lot better than what you could do on your own).

I've disobeyed God many times; does that mean I'm going to Hell? No. It means I've stayed behind and not grown in my faith at all, which is punishment enough.

Annerach

May 19th, 2003, 6:12 pm

Oh. Just Curious, do you believe in a literal interpretation of the christian bible? Because I'm pretty sure it says somewhere in there that disobeying your god at all will land you in hell. Is that true?

j_thunders

May 19th, 2003, 10:40 pm

Originally posted by Annerach (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=326786#post326786))
Oh. Just Curious, do you believe in a literal interpretation of the christian bible? Because I'm pretty sure it says somewhere in there that disobeying your god at all will land you in hell. Is that true?

I sure hope not. Everytime we sin, it's at our own will. And God knows that we're going to sin, but that doesn't keep someone from living a decent life over-all and getting to go to heaven when it's all over.

Aren't the people who make literal interpretations of the Bible called Fundamentalists? They won't even sing at a mass or prayer service because there is no mention of singing during worship in the Bible. But of course, there was no electricity in the Bible either, but that doesn't stop them from using it.

Even the Catholic Church contradicts itself. I'm not trying to say that it doesn't. As far as I'm concerned, no religion will ever be perfect, so I'm just going to keep trying to find the one that I think fits me best. But I'm not interested in having no religion or no God, so that isn't a solution to thing whole thing.

In school we're learning about Matrin Luther and the Reformation, and "justification of faith", which basically means that having faith in God and being sorry for your sins is enough to make you a good person. You don't need a priest to confess your sins to, like in my Church. I never liked confessing all the things I've done wrong to a complete stranger.

LewsTherin

May 20th, 2003, 5:30 am

dorcasderr

May 20th, 2003, 10:48 pm

quote: " Yes, and no. I don't believe you can read the Bible and take it at face value without understanding what it says. Once you do, then it can be taken literally. As for the Bible saying that you'll go to Hell if you disobey God....perhaps someone can find the scripture but I've never seen it. I still doubt it. God's grace is bigger than that."

Ah, understanding it can be the problem...Many people take a verse here or there, out of context, and build theological arguments on them. Or they listen to what men have said and men are fallible. Interpreting scripture is not ALWAYS an easy thing, but if you can get a hold of a chain reference Bible and let scripture interpret scripture it is much easier. And I do believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, but I believe you must use the mind God gave you as well as the reference works (like Strong's Concordance, Bible Dictionaries, Greek word Dictionaries-for the New Testament, and so forth). As to why Jesus didn't just fix things...there have been quite a few excellent answers already-Hogwarts Chaplain, Sherlock Holmes, Lewis Therin, & Snowy Owl to name a few. And, as this is a Harry Potter forum, why not quote Dumbledore as well, "It is the choices we make rather than our abilities that determine who we are." (or something like that...We were given free will and are expected to make choices, accept challenges, run the race as though to win.

Sherlock Holmes

May 21st, 2003, 1:46 pm

Very well said, dorcas! :yup:

As for hell and how to get there...that is reserved for those who spend their entire life rejecting God. Those who want nothing to do with God, in other words. I believe hell is nothing less than the entire absence of God, which--if He is the life-force which holds the world together, as the Bible claims---would be a pretty awful thing.

In any case, the thing to remember is that God doesn't want anybody to go to hell. The overwhelming theme of all the Old Testament prophets is of God's people disobeying and abandoning Him, time and time again, yet God still being patient and merciful, giving them second and third and forth and one-hundredth chances. Yes, He is a just God who will punish the guilty, but He is also very merciful, wanting to give people as many chances as possible.

AvidSkyRise

May 22nd, 2003, 8:24 pm

I think Jesus didn't "Just fix" the world because the point of the world is for us to fix it for ourselves

dorcasderr

May 24th, 2003, 3:30 am

Besides. without all the challenges that life offers and opportunities for our characters to grow and be formed...how DULL it would be! If everything were white bread perfect we'd be bored pretty quicky and then we'd complain about THAT.

Morgoth

May 24th, 2003, 7:21 am

How would we complain about it? We have no idea how it would be.

Midnightsfire

May 24th, 2003, 3:27 pm

True. In order to know what "dull" is, you need to make a comparison.

Kinda like knowing what "color" is. However, if you were born blind, you'd never know what that was either.

*ponders the correctness of said analogy*

MarcKal

June 2nd, 2003, 8:51 pm

He doesn't stop it because it's all Adam and Eve's fault! If they hadn't eaten those darn apples from the darn Tree of Knowledge, we would live in Paradise!!!!!!

EDIT: It's sarcasm. Adam and Eve is a symbolical story (in my point of view.

Manyasha

June 3rd, 2003, 11:59 am

Originally posted by MarcKal (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=349267#post349267))
He doesn't stop it because it's all Adam and Eve's fault! If they hadn't eaten those darn apples from the darn Tree of Knowledge, we would live in Paradise!!!!!!

I'm sorry but I don't get if it's sarcasm or not...:scared: Could you clear it up a bit?

Sherlock Holmes

June 3rd, 2003, 1:09 pm

Originally posted by dorcasderr (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=333757#post333757))
Besides. without all the challenges that life offers and opportunities for our characters to grow and be formed...how DULL it would be! If everything were white bread perfect we'd be bored pretty quicky and then we'd complain about THAT.

Originally posted by Morgoth (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=333757#post333757))
How would we complain about it? We have no idea how it would be.

Good point Matt. We don't know what a perfect life would be like, so we can't really say whether it woud be better or worse. However, I think we make a reasonably good extrapolation, based on our other experiences. In our own lives and in the lives of people we observe, who generally turns out the best? Best character, etc.? Those who had everything given to them, for whom life was pretty much perfect, or those who had to work for it? I would say it is a reasonably safe assumption that, paradoxically, people who are never tested aren't very strong (or interesting) people.

dorcasderr

June 9th, 2003, 11:15 pm

Besides, God did give us minds ,and minds need exercise just as the body does, or else it doesn't expand or grow. Why do you think debate is such a popular human activity? People enjoy solving problems, it's just that some of the world's problems are ratrher overwhelming. That, however does not mean we cannot, with God's help (and there's a key) overcome them.

Hawk 92

June 13th, 2003, 1:51 am

I've always felt that God simply didn't just fix the world because He didn't want to change the rules.

Simply put in the beginning God created the world and saw that it was good and that everything worked in harmony. Man disobeyed and the harmony was broken. But God never gave up on man and so Jesus came and took humanity and restored it to the right hand of God.

But the rules where there from the beginning. Man had free will and nature was what God created it to be. God was not going to change the rules simply so that He would win. He came and played by the same rules that He set forth for us, the cross was wood, the nails were metal, Christ truly suffered and died, was buried and arose. Yet all through this act of redemption never were the rules changed to suit God's purpose.

If God were to change the rules constantly so that people could not sin if they chose then we would have no free will.

And no matter what happens or what we face in this life we can't say that God hasn't gone through it as well. And God has always lead by example.

slytherin_seeker

July 16th, 2003, 9:06 am

If GOD fixed the world in an instant... then we would all become "robots", and then we would become "boring creatures."
GOD still wants us to have free will, and exercise the right to do so... "we are free to choose what we want to do, but are not free to choose the consequences of our actions..."
While praying, Jesus asked GOD if it's possible that HE not undergo the crucifixion... but then again he said "not my will by YOURS be done..."

iloveJesus5487

July 22nd, 2003, 11:43 pm

Wow this is a frequently asked question asked by many (myself included). A person once gave me an incredible answer to this question and I will try my best to restate it as eloquently as they did.

Of course the answer to the question about why things are so messed up in this world is of course free will. But many people fail to see how beautiful the gift of free will is. God loves us so much that he gave us the power to choose whether or not to love and serve him. He didn't want to force us into some slave like obedience because thats not real love. He wants us to choose him. We're given a choice, to either accept Gods love for us and follow and love him, or we can turn away from him. It is because people choose to turn away from God and his ways that we have evil in this world. Its because people decide to refuse the grace he gives us.

This explanation made sense to me and I only hope its makes sense to others.

HarryPottersfan

July 29th, 2003, 10:42 am

Thanks all for replying. I figured out the answer now.

Metabee

August 27th, 2003, 1:46 pm

As an Athiest, obviously I don't beleive in Jesus at all.

dobby_rocks

January 9th, 2004, 4:23 am

fawkes5

April 8th, 2004, 10:02 am

Jesus can fix everything but he doesn't. Why? Because he gave us free will. With free will must come responsibility but the thing is, a lot of people don't have that.

In other words, I believe it is man's choices that make the world as it is now. And when man is more mature then maybe our world will be a better place to live in.

thethirdman

April 13th, 2004, 3:39 am

I believe two things.

1. The world we live in is a result of our choices. If we think our life is bad, then we mad a bad choice somewhere. We just have to make the best of what we've made for ourselves and ride the storm out. Eventually we make things better by making good choices.

2. God nor Jesus have that kind of power. Neither can snap their fingers and make everything all better. It would completely go against the rule of the world god created. I belived that even our deities are bound by physics. However, I do believe that they can manipulate the rules as can the most devout of their followers. Basically not even god can make the sky turn purple and rain orange ostriches. So Jesus didn't fix everything because he couldn't. He just had to suffer with us.

Pumpkin Juice

April 24th, 2004, 6:44 pm

...I believe in God, but my faith is not in its peak right now. I just took off my cross necklace. What I'm having a hard time with is how could Jesus Christ not ask God to stop all the violence, death, diseases, etc., in this world and make it be at peace? I understand we were given free will, but why?...
I know the post is old, but for you or anyone feeling this way, could I suggest reading the book of Ecclesiastes in the Old Testament? I think it's a great book to read concerning your first question. I'll quote a little bit of it, Ecclesiastes 3:1-8:

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven:
a time to be born and a time to die,
a time to plant and a time to uproot,
a time to kill and a time to heal,
a time to tear down and a time to build,
a time to weep and a time to laugh,
a time to mourn and a time to dance,
a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
a time to embrace and a time to refrain,
a time to search and a time to give up,
a time to keep and a time to throw away,
a time to tear and a time to mend,
a time to be silent and a time to speak,
a time to love and a time to hate,
a time for war and a time for peace.

The short answer of why Jesus didn't fix everything and make this world at peace is because one, this world was not His home. As he explained during the few hours leading up to his crucifixion when he was being beaten and everything, Jesus said that if His kingdom were on earth, His followers would be fighting to free Him. And once when Jesus was questioned, He said flat out, "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn 'a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law - a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'" Jesus was quoting Old Testament prophecy concerning the Messiah, and it was still prophetic. Jesus knew the controversy His life would create in the world until the end of it.

Another reason why there isn't peace is because God uses this world to test us to find who is faithful to Him. We're constantly being refined in the fire, sharpened and tested to be made stronger. :)

Marie Lexis

May 9th, 2004, 8:49 pm

God and Jesus both have a reason for what they are doing and what they are waiting for. You just have to have faith in God and know that what ever his plan is...it's a good one and we are all going to be waiting for the answer.

Jagdverband

May 15th, 2004, 2:05 pm

Here's my take on it...

If God, and by proxy Jesus, had "fixed" the world, we'd get bored very quickly, and someone would go and eat the forbidden fruit again, just to make life interesting again. Part of any organised religion, and part of the human consciousness, is the desire to better ourselves. It gives life meaning and purpose, and therefore something to strive for. The catch is that perfection is an unachievable goal, but we are too stubborn to admit it to ourselves.

MarcKal

July 9th, 2004, 7:44 pm

Jesus didn't fix everything because he knew God built human on flaw. Flaw is what makes humans humans!

See, life is a test. Whether you enter heaven or enter hell (hell isn't fire or brimstone. it's actually a remote place from God. you stay there until you are ready to enter heaven).

Kirsten

July 10th, 2004, 3:29 pm

I love the book Good Omens by Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman. In it, one of the characters, Adam, is the antiChrist, but by a mixup, he ends up growing up as a typically English little boy, with friends and a normal lifestyle. His life is watched over by an angel, Aziraphael, and a demon, Crowley, who through thousands of years of being on earth, have actually become quite good friends. The overall plan of Satan is that once Adam grows up, he will lead all the armies of hell against heaven and there will be a huge battle. Once he and his friends realise what he is and what his powers are, he realises that if people knew what he could do, he'd never be left alone - everyone would be wanting him to fix things. He says that it seems to him that the most sensible thing would be if people realised that if they kill a whale, they've got a dead whale. He's basically saying that good and evil are just names for different sides, and that people need to take responsibility for their own actions.

That's a very short synopsis of a very amusing and thought provoking book. The book pretty much sums up how I feel about good and evil and our responsibilities in this world. I recommend it to you all!

ultimate sacrifice

July 11th, 2004, 3:03 am

[QUOTE=HogwartsChaplain]
Sometimes we think that if God would just listen to our prayers, and take away all the problems we experience, this would be a much better world. Rather than sending Jesus to be lifted up on the cross, couldnâ€™t God remove our desire to sin? Couldnâ€™t God remove all the diseases and sicknesses and troubles and pain we experience? Couldnâ€™t God just remove death?

God does listen to us, but God has a different solution. Trouble still exists in our world. Terminal diseases still afflict people. Accidents still happen. People still havenâ€™t learned to get along with one anotherâ€” they get angry, they fight, they kill, they wage war. Often the life we now live seems like a wilderness experience. Itâ€™s difficult. Life isnâ€™t always pleasant.

What God promises for all people, suffering or not, is that by looking at this Human One dead on the cross, we are promised eternal lifeâ€” not an immediate end to our suffering on earth.

May we all continue to look up to Jesus, our lamb of Calvary. [End Quote]

This is really a good answer. I just told my kids today that if we won a mult-trillion-gazillion dollar lottery and threw the money at all the problems in the world, it wouldn't change anything. There would still be some crazed ego driven maniac who would torture and brutalize people, there would still be a scientist who would create a weapon of mass destruction and the wheels of commerce would still turn in the name of the almighty dollar and we would continue to deplete the rain forrests and pollute the waters of the earth.

The thing is, Jesus did give us his answer to the problems that mankind has created on this earth, we just didn't like what he had to say about how we should live with each other and if he came back today to try to do the same thing on this earth for this generation, we would put him right back up on that cross and it would be TELEVISED ALL OVER THE WORLD on pay per view and someone would make money!

I just finished the Chronicles of Narnia and it was just amazing how CS LEWIS interpretted the total depravity of humankind. The position that the dwarfs took in book 7 was so incredibly like modern secularism. And he wrote those books about 50 years ago. We just keep cycling the same choices and behaviors for centuries. We're pretty predictable.

The answers are given, we just don't like them.

Ragdrazi

July 11th, 2004, 5:19 am

~Tonks~

July 11th, 2004, 5:29 am

People like to make the argument that we couldn’t have a perfect world with personal freedoms and such, and without it remaining interesting. They are forgetting however, two things. One, god is said to have created a perfect world originally, with people who had free choice, but included a completely unnecessary proviso about a tree. Given the infinite nature of Adam and Eve it is unreasonable to expect that they wouldn’t eat from the tree eventually, even if simply by accident. Number two. It is easy to forget here that god is supposed to be omnipotent. He can make anything. He has the power to make a perfect world which would include personal freedoms if he wanted to, because he can do anything. So life sucks but it’s short? So we are promised the perfect world without suffering and with freedom of choice, but only after death? I’m sorry. At best it sounds like a protection racket. At worst it sounds sweetly naively convenient.

I agree with you.

An omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent being who made a perfect world and put two human beings in it knowing they would do something that would make it imperfect (because he's omnipotent, remember, so he'd know this ahead of time) then a blood sacrifice having to take place so people could be forgiven and brought back into a perfect realm, after they're dead, only if they accept that sacrifice... Yeah.

Anyway the question is why didn't Jesus fix everything... well, I'm not a Christian but my best shot at this is... *brace yourself all religious people, horribly skewed atheist perspective coming :rotfl: * this is a guy who, if he did exist, existed over 2,000 years ago. I bet if he even had the power to fix everything (which I don't believe, if he did exist, since comparitive and historical religious perspective classes put a whole new slant on who all these people were as opposed to who they were made out to be by people like, Saul i.e. Paul) we probably would have messed it up again anyway. :rotfl:

Lincoln

July 12th, 2004, 3:54 am

This is probably going to recap what a number of people have said, but here's my (and my church's for that matter) take on the subject:

This question is really the crux of the meaning of life. We were created to experience pain so that we might know joy. While I suppose Christ could have "fixed" the world, it would really have defeated the point of his coming and his atoning sacrifice. It would, in fact, have defeated the entire point of creation.

In the pre-existence, we were all God's spirit children. We lived in a very similar situation as the garden of Eden. In such a state we were stagnant -- we had nothing to learn from and thus could never grow to be like our Heavenly Father. God's plan was for us to become like him, but to do so we had to come to this world (which was then unformed) and gain bodies and experience sorrow and pain so that we could find out how we'd react. This life is a learning experience. Lucifer, at the council in Heaven when God laid out this plan to us all, submitted himself to the Father and said that if he were allowed to be God's beloved, he would make sure everyone came back -- i.e. he would force us to be good, and thereby negate the point, which is rather like what the question wants Christ to have done.

That didn't happen, and Christ wasn't going to make that happen either.

Ragdrazi

July 12th, 2004, 4:26 am

That explanation is wholly deficient in addressing the argument against it. If we are to accept that god was capable of making a world in which pain is required for growth, why can't we accept that god is capable of making a world in which pain is not required for growth and in which people would not be forced to do anything? Especially when such a world is promised as the sort of exclusive members-only after death resort for the believers. If the Garden of Eden is a world in which people cannot learn (which makes little sense given the fact that Adam is said to have named the animals, therefor had to learn about the new animals), then we should question why god, given the infinite possible situations he could have put them in, chose that one. Also important in this discussion is the fact that there is pain out there which helps no one to grow at all.

Lincoln

July 12th, 2004, 7:01 am

It's like why can't God make something so heavy that He can't lift it? Because there are things that are simply constants of the universe that even God has to deal with. He can't create things that are simply impossible, and He can't make it possible to learn from things you never experience. There are more reasons, but they're deep doctrine you probably don't want to hear.

Ragdrazi

July 12th, 2004, 7:39 am

Because there are things that are simply constants of the universe that even God has to deal with. He can't create things that are simply impossible, and He can't make it possible to learn from things you never experience. Whoa! Look out thousands of years of religious doctrine. So god can only make physical reality, he can't change it? So god can only have made this physical reality, and no others, even though he made Eden and will make Paradise? So god cannot do things that are simply imposable? Like creating all of reality from nothing? I guess omnipotence just isn’t what it used to be. . . (sorry about being so smarmy.)
Now I didn't say that god should keep us from experience, quite the opposite. But pain, which is often times abjectly unnecessary, seems like a strange thing for a god of love to have created. Mental illness also seems an odd choice. Congenital sensory defects. Satan.There are more reasons, but they're deep doctrine you probably don't want to hear. If by deep doctrine you mean deeply contradictory and illogical. . . then. . . actually, sounds like fun. Lay it on me.

Fingolfin

July 12th, 2004, 5:13 pm

maybe this has been mentioned i havent read all the posts ......

the reason the world is not perfect, or fixed, well you need a starting point :

the world is not perfect because there is evil in the world; there are are two kinds of evil, that which is man made and that which is not man made, natural disasters and things.

We have free will and therefore god has no control over the what we say and do and so just on this one gift (which it is a gift, and otherwise all that god has done would be overall pointless as we would be simply robots in this world) , you will have much evil in the world from things like to one extreme the holocaust to simple calling of names. Free will has been given to us so we can choose god and have the chance to be with him (as someone has mentioned), you can turn to him or away from him. It would be very hard to have a perfect world with us all having free will and jesus couldnt fix this without removing free will (for you to have a perfect world everyone else would have to be a robot and so you would be the only being, solipsism which has its own very obvious drawbacks).

Then there are the natural disasters kind of evil and im not sure i know what the point of this is maybe its so we realise how precious life is knowing you can be struck down by lightening or some other natural occurance. If there were these things inherently in the world god couldnt go around saving everyone if he was performing miracles all over the place there would be no reason to put yuour faith in him cause everyone would know that he exists ... specialy when the hand of god reaches down from the heavens to rescue every cat stuck up a tree and things. Also the world wouldnt be as constant if god was ALWAYS intervening.

So i believe there is evil naturaly in the world, God is a force of good .......

and afterall if there were no evil in the world how would we ever recognise Good. Evil cannot simply be a LACK of good .

Phew .........

Hagrid442

July 12th, 2004, 8:45 pm

JofpGallagher

July 12th, 2004, 9:20 pm

Jesus was only one man, and no one person can "fix" the world and rid it of all its problems. Only collectively can we even begin to start doing that. Jesus did give some good advice though. He was no God, but a very spiritual, wise, and peaceful person.

I agree with the idea that we, collectively, can and should fix the world. Now remember that for some religions (Catholic for example), Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are One! Hence Jesus is God for some (me ;))

Hagrid442

July 12th, 2004, 10:01 pm

I know that. :)

I just doubt Jesus' divinity!! LOL

Ragdrazi

July 13th, 2004, 3:28 am

I'm afraid, Fingolfin, that I've already argued against everything you've said. You haven't adressed these arguments, you are just reiterating.

Fingolfin

July 13th, 2004, 11:41 am

I was simply stating my view on the matter, i hadnt read your posts.. sorry

Also i belive that jesus was god, you know the are all one, and i think god did send part of himself down to eath to help people and to teach but also to experience the world from a human eye veiw to experience pain etc

Lincoln

July 15th, 2004, 1:02 am

Whoa! Look out thousands of years of religious doctrine. So god can only make physical reality, he can't change it? So god can only have made this physical reality, and no others, even though he made Eden and will make Paradise? So god cannot do things that are simply imposable? Like creating all of reality from nothing? I guess omnipotence just isn’t what it used to be. . . (sorry about being so smarmy.)
Now I didn't say that god should keep us from experience, quite the opposite. But pain, which is often times abjectly unnecessary, seems like a strange thing for a god of love to have created. Mental illness also seems an odd choice. Congenital sensory defects. Satan. If by deep doctrine you mean deeply contradictory and illogical. . . then. . . actually, sounds like fun. Lay it on me.

There's a big difference between having all the power anyone could ever even possibly imagine (e.g. things that are just logically impossible) and not having any power at all. Also, I didn't say any of the things you seem to think I said. I haven't been contradictory or illogical at all, regardless of how many statements you put in my mouth.

To get into that deep doctrine, God didn't form this world from nothing. He sent Christ in the pre-mortal world to organize matter to form the world in the image of the spirit world that already existed. Christ was helped by Michael and others. God himself, though very powerful, was once a person like we are. He has a body of flesh and blood that he gained the same way we did, on some other world with some other God who likely went through the same process. Thus, our God has certain restraints outside of which he cannot operate. As a perfect and exalted being, his restraints are naturally much looser than our own (to put it mildly).

Also, I would argue that pain is never really unnecessary. Pain that might seem unnecessary is at the very least a test of character.

Midnightsfire

July 15th, 2004, 1:20 am

Before this goes any further, those posting please read carefully the Spirit Division Guidelines (http://cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=2635).

Thank you. *winks*

PhoenixUK

July 15th, 2004, 1:46 am

If you would like to debate the subject, please use this thread (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=30087).

The Spirit Division is not a debate forum. Please click on the link MidnightsFire gave you if you need more guidance, thank you.

Lincoln

July 15th, 2004, 7:29 am

I apologize for any debating on my part in the wrong forum.

missypotter

August 10th, 2004, 7:08 pm

He did. It's called salvation.

eMMy_026

August 12th, 2004, 6:46 pm

Well you have to understand that God didnt bring the diseases, violence, death, etc into the world. Even before we had control of it...satan brought sin into the world. Hes very good at tricking others. That separated us(humans) from God...we werent perfect anymore(and God is) so we can no longer have a direct link with him. But that wasnt all ..God didnt want to be seperate from us. He created us and wanted us to be with him..but it wasnt so easy. So, because he loved sooo much..he sent his son, Jesus Christ to die and forgive us from sins. Because Jesus was perfect.. through him, we have a "link" to God, and are able to be forgiven.
So..im not sure if that makes any sense..but i tried.
Jesus wants to stop all the sin in the world...but it isnt that easy. Since God gave us free will, we have to give that to Jesus so that the sin can be forgiven.. only then can sin(death, violence, etc.) be conquered.

Oh yea....and missypotter....good answer!

Tane

September 19th, 2004, 7:44 pm

This is a good question, why did Jesus not fix the world. Fix the world to what I wonder. To fix the world to me implies the acceptance of god by everyone so if someone is a non-believer would they be fixed to believe and would that be wrong to change how they live or what the hearts feel most comfortable with. In a way I think Jesus can not fix the world, even if he was not a mere man and could do such a thing to me it would be wrong for Jesus to change the way individuals believe just because there beliefs are not of the same god. To fix a world and make every person believe in the same god would be almost like enslaving the world from freedom to make that choice themselves.

I would not want to be fixed to believe in a god I do not believe in.

plinker

September 20th, 2004, 11:39 pm

~Tonks~

September 20th, 2004, 11:48 pm

If everything here on Earth was perfect, why would we want to go to heaven?
Faith is tried at times and that is when faith must carry the day. Prayer always helps, but remember this-"thy will be done".

The world is anything but perfect, but I still have no desire to go to the Judeo Christian heaven.

Personally the idea of heaven is unrealistic to me. Eternal bliss with nothing bad ever happening, no negative feelings, and everyone there who believed the right way so they got in. Seems to me like wishful thinking.

Alastor Moody

October 9th, 2004, 12:31 am

First, I'd like to say that i did not read all the posts.

And second, who said Heaven was 'eternal bliss.' Earth used to be a reflection of what was in heaven. But, after man fell, death came... but anyway

Why ddin't God fix the world. I'll give you a few reasons why he didn't:

1. God knows what he's doing. He is the Past, present, and future, and we really hardly know anything. The reason why ther world is what it is is because WE don't know what we're doing.
2. Because if he didn't give us free chioce, imagine all of thos human rights groups nailing him with lawsuits...(joking...)
3. God came, and died, and rose again. He died for our sins. To put in humorus terms, look at it this way:

Excert from the Lords Prayer:

... and Forgive us as we trash-pass, as we forgive our trashpassers...

Rabbit trail. Didn't make any sense. Anyway, we can go to him, and then be his. Sons/Daughters of God. But I haven't answered the question yet, have I? Here's one:

Psalms 115:16,

"The heavens are of the Lord, but the earth He has given to the sons of men."

God gave US authority. He will not intervene unless we ask him. And that is the only way we can fix the wrold: with Jesus! I really G2G, so bye!

Sincerely,
~ Alastor Moody

LeXoR

October 11th, 2004, 3:02 pm

Two words. FREE WILL.

Sunfish McCaul

November 26th, 2004, 12:27 am

I agree with many non-Christian theists on this matter, that Jesus wasn't actually the son of God, but rather an extraordinarily wise, kindly man who had a lot of very good things to say about spirituality, faith, peace and love. A wonderful man, yes, and one of the most effective leaders the human race has yet seen, but I don't think he was divine. That's why I think he couldn't save humanity. We could listen to his messages and perhaps, as a result, save ourselves. It hasn't worked yet. I don't think following one man is the answer. I think we should find all the wisdom we can to inspire us, 'cause this sad and sorry civilization could sure use it. Christ is certainly one possible inspiration. Some others are Gandhi, Muhammad, Marx, Buddha, Plato, Joan of Arc, Martin Luther King, Jr., Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Rosa Parks, Malcolm X, Elizabeth I, Pope John XXIII... There are many, many people out there who can inspire you and help you find faith, in whatever way you need it.

LeeJordanfan

November 26th, 2004, 1:02 am

I can't always follow the theology of the older wiser folks here, because I don't understand it all. But as Jesus liked analogies, maybe this will help.

I think God really, truly, does love us and all creation. Here's what happens (this is long, bear with me).

But let's imagine your loved one falls to the floor, unconcious. You call your emergency medical center and they rush to your house with an ambulance.

They stick a blood pressure cuff on her arm, an Intravenous tube in her arm, and a defilibrator to start her heart. They attach monitoring equipment to her body, and rush her to a hospital. They tell you they will put her in a coma on purpose, for surgery, and do the open heart surgery, and that she should be fine.

Two days later she's alive and well and smiling at you in her hospital bed.

Now, imagine if you were a stone age man or alive a thousand years ago and modern day doctors tried to do this to your mom back then. You'd think they were trying to kill her! Needles? Surgery? Comas on purpose? You wouldn't be able to understand that it will SAVE her life.

It's the same thing I think. God is actively working to save us, and if we knew more we could see what's going on. But we're like the cave man a millienum ago, and we think its insane, while God our Doctor is working like crazy to save our souls.

Dare Devil

November 26th, 2004, 5:04 pm

God is our father in heaven and we are His children and like any other loving father He wants us to grow up and to mature and how else could we do that if it was not for the existance of evil in this world? How could we truly turn our backs towards evil if we had no idea about it or how could we truly turn towards God if we had no choice but to do just that? We would not be His children, we'd be His robots or something like that.

LewsTherin

November 26th, 2004, 6:29 pm

I think Jesus has a plan, but this is a long term plan in which evil is destroyed for once and for all. Why doesn't he just do it now? Because He is fair. He is giving Satan a chance to try and beat him, and giving us the chance to choose which side we'll be on: His or Satan's. Thus, Jesus allows evil, the same as He allows us to make our own decisions (which unfortunately or mostly bad ones). When Jesus decides (in His own time) to end evil (at armageddon) then it will be ended forever. Satan will be in Hell and the world will be free of tempration.

And remember, the world could be a lot less evil if people lived in a righteous and loving manner. Jesus said; "Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love your neighbour as you love yourself." If we followed those two basic principles, the world could be transformed practically overnight. But, sadly, people place greater value in their own pride than humility, and that is one of the main reasons wht the world is as it is today.

sam_siren

November 26th, 2004, 8:04 pm

also, remember people, without suffering there would be no compassion. sad but true!

GryffndorBeater

December 6th, 2004, 12:58 am

Jesus didn't stop all the sinning because god gave us a precious gift called free will.

Tiberius

December 6th, 2004, 1:37 am

What I'm having a hard time with is how could Jesus Christ not ask God to stop all the violence, death, diseases, etc., in this world and make it be at peace? I understand we were given free will, but why?...

I have a short answer, even though many people will disagree with me. Jesus and God have done nothing to fix the world and eliminate suffering because they don't exist. I won't go into the reasons why i believe that, but if youa re curious to understand my reasoning, please look in the "Does God exist" threads. Version one is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=25046), and version two is here (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=37310).

Sirius Seeker

December 9th, 2004, 10:51 pm

Here is my 2 cents...

Heya T, you tend to take the stance on science that states, "There are things that science has not yet proven to be true, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist or are not true. Those things just haven't been proven YET."

I have the same view when it comes to the reason that there is still sin and evil in the world. For me, God is real and He IS going to remove all of the sin and evil from the world. He just hasn't done it YET. Therefore, just as science has not yet proven "everything" but holds faith that everything will be proven eventually, God has not yet solved "everything" regarding sin and evil but I hold faith that everything will be taken care of eventually.

In the meantime, we are left to our own choices regarding our own actions. We cannot blame God entirely for bad things that people do to each other because we do things to ourselves and to others. I do not believe that God ignores the problems of the world and I believe that He can take bad situations and make good things come out of them. But I do not see the existance of evil in the world as an example of God's nonexistance, indifference, or lack of compassion. He will make all things right in the end. He just hasn't done it YET.

Tiberius

December 10th, 2004, 2:05 am

heya, SS. Good to speak to you again. Well, type to you, I suppose...

Heya T, you tend to take the stance on science that states, "There are things that science has not yet proven to be true, but that doesn't mean that they don't exist or are not true. Those things just haven't been proven YET."

Absolutely correct.

I have the same view when it comes to the reason that there is still sin and evil in the world. For me, God is real and He IS going to remove all of the sin and evil from the world. He just hasn't done it YET. Therefore, just as science has not yet proven "everything" but holds faith that everything will be proven eventually, God has not yet solved "everything" regarding sin and evil but I hold faith that everything will be taken care of eventually.

In the meantime, we are left to our own choices regarding our own actions. We cannot blame God entirely for bad things that people do to each other because we do things to ourselves and to others. I do not believe that God ignores the problems of the world and I believe that He can take bad situations and make good things come out of them. But I do not see the existance of evil in the world as an example of God's nonexistance, indifference, or lack of compassion. He will make all things right in the end. He just hasn't done it YET.

So I ask you... Why hasn't he done it yet? Is God waiting for something? Surely, being all powerful, he is able to do it right now.

That's the difference between scientific faith and religious faith. Scientific faith is based on past results. I have seen how developing science has benefited mankind. We went from valves in TVs to transistors, and now microchips. Computers used to be the size of whole buildings, now I can carry in my pocket more computing power than what took man to the moon.

Can religion say the same thing? No, of course not. Because the only way it could is if God has come down and shown himself to us before. And if such was the case, there could be no room for doubt. We woulkd have seen it with our own eyes. And please don't site the Bible examples of God appearing in the burning bush, or parting the Red Sea. Apart from the Bible, there's no record of such events occuring, and you know how I feel about using the Bible to prove itself.

My faith in science is completely different from your faith in religion.

Sirius Seeker

December 11th, 2004, 1:55 am

So I ask you... Why hasn't he done it yet? Is God waiting for something? Surely, being all powerful, he is able to do it right now.
Is God waiting for something? He must be. While there is still evil and sadness and hardship in the world, it's not such a terrible place all the time, is it? There are wonderful relationships with friends and family to enjoy. There is an abundance of beauty in nature for us to experience. Life is an enjoyable experience. We have the opportunity to learn, work, play, laugh, dance, live. Perhaps God is waiting because He wants to give us the opportunity to enjoy life on earth as it is now before He steps in and shakes things up a bit.

God IS all-powerful, so of course He is ABLE to "do it right now." But He chooses not to. Being all-powerful, He has the right to make that decision. I have faith that He knows what is best or what best suits His purposes. It is not our place to become impatient and want things (any things) done exactly when we want them to be done. God has His timing. Faith helps you to trust that His timing is far better than our own.

Can religion say the same thing? No, of course not. Because the only way it could is if God has come down and shown himself to us before. And if such was the case, there could be no room for doubt. We woulkd have seen it with our own eyes. And please don't site the Bible examples of God appearing in the burning bush, or parting the Red Sea. Apart from the Bible, there's no record of such events occuring, and you know how I feel about using the Bible to prove itself.
And that is where we really differ. I happen to believe that God DID come down and show himself to us before. Christ is the ultimate example. The others that you cited also count. Outside of the Bible I cannot prove it nor will I attempt to because it cannot be done to the standards that you require. But for my standards, from the scrutiny of my own heart and beliefs, that is all the evidence I need. I understand that it is not the same for you.

Along those same lines, the appearance of God in person does not guarantee belief. It is recorded where people saw Christ with their own eyes, carried on conversations with Him, saw Him perform His miracles and still did not believe. Does that mean that what is written is not true? Or that Christ was a fake? Some would agree that is true. Others would agree that not everyone wants to believe or ever will believe. A perfect example is what some people have said on the other thread, such as, "Even if God did show Himself and I had no doubt that He existed, I still wouldn't have a need to worship Him." Proof of God does not produce faith in God. There is a difference.

You believe in science because you trust that what is written in books and journals is true, even though you have never seen some of the concepts or theories in person. You do not accept everything you read on blind faith, but weigh it against what you know to be true regarding specific scientific principles, theories, laws, etc. However, (and I understand your position completely) while you believe in certain things that you have never seen in person, there always remains the possibility (if time, money, space, environment, location, etc. were no limitation) that you at least have the possibility of seeing those things for yourself. Therefore your faith has concrete support available, even if only in theory. Therefore your beliefs are supported.

The same cannot be said for religion. I understand that completely.

My faith in science is completely different from your faith in religion.
They are different, yes, and I do not attempt to reconcile the two. My original point was simply to say this: You have faith that science has not proven everything YET. I have faith that God has not solved everything YET. And the only thing that either of us can do to see if we are right is to wait.

ultimate sacrifice

December 11th, 2004, 4:52 am

God IS all-powerful, so of course He is ABLE to "do it right now." But He chooses not to. Being all-powerful, He has the right to make that decision. I have faith that He knows what is best or what best suits His purposes. It is not our place to become impatient and want things (any things) done exactly when we want them to be done. God has His timing. Faith helps you to trust that His timing is far better than our own.

And that is where we really differ. I happen to believe that God DID come down and show himself to us before. Christ is the ultimate example. The others that you cited also count. Outside of the Bible I cannot prove it nor will I attempt to because it cannot be done to the standards that you require. But for my standards, from the scrutiny of my own heart and beliefs, that is all the evidence I need. I understand that it is not the same for you.

Along those same lines, the appearance of God in person does not guarantee belief. It is recorded where people saw Christ with their own eyes, carried on conversations with Him, saw Him perform His miracles and still did not believe. Does that mean that what is written is not true? Or that Christ was a fake? Some would agree that is true. Others would agree that not everyone wants to believe or ever will believe. A perfect example is what some people have said on the other thread, such as, "Even if God did show Himself and I had no doubt that He existed, I still wouldn't have a need to worship Him." Proof of God does not produce faith in God. There is a difference.

They are different, yes, and I do not attempt to reconcile the two. My original point was simply to say this: You have faith that science has not proven everything YET. I have faith that God has not solved everything YET. And the only thing that either of us can do to see if we are right is to wait.

Oh my goodness, Sirius Seeker, I could not have said it better! :clap:

Thank you!

There were many who saw Jesus before and after he raised from the dead as well as all of his miracles, and they still chose not to believe in him as the Messiah, the Son of God. We will not convince anyone who does not choose to open their heart and mind to the Holy Spirit on this matter. My faith convinves me that Jesus did "fix" the world by becoming the perfect sacrifice for mankind in order to restore mankind to fellowship with the living God...this life is temporary and this world is imperfect and will be until Christ in his infinate wisdom chooses to come again and defeat the prince of darkness who is allowed to "mess with the system" so to speak at this time.

Taichi

December 12th, 2004, 11:47 am

The fact of the matter is this: if Jesus really existed, then he existed as a man, who was seperated from Yahweh, in the sense that man is seperated, he had no direct line, nor contact with him, whilst a man...there is NO line in the Bible which says otherwise (that he spoke directly with Yahweh)......

meaning, to effect real change, he would have had to do it on his own, without the divine power......which means, it was impossible to do, as he was just one man......

I fully believe that the extent of his 'miracles' is greatly exaggerated, to the point that it's so outrageously fictitious, that to believe it as actual fact, when all evidence points to the contrary, is the equivalent of naivette......

thus, if Christ was a real person (I have my doubts) he was limited (even if he was born of divine power) to the strengths, and powers of a mortal man.....

Tiberius

December 13th, 2004, 1:02 am

Is God waiting for something? He must be. While there is still evil and sadness and hardship in the world, it's not such a terrible place all the time, is it? There are wonderful relationships with friends and family to enjoy. There is an abundance of beauty in nature for us to experience. Life is an enjoyable experience. We have the opportunity to learn, work, play, laugh, dance, live. Perhaps God is waiting because He wants to give us the opportunity to enjoy life on earth as it is now before He steps in and shakes things up a bit.

He must be, you say. But isn't that the only conclusion you can come to if you believe? In an attempt to explain why, you explain it with an unknown. Unknowns aren't really an explanation. After all, what could he be waiting for? What does the Almighty wait for?

Also, if he did fix the world, we'd still have the opportunity to do all those wonderful things you mentioned. Yet we could do so without fear of pain, disease, despair, suffering, death... We'd have all the good things without the bad.

God IS all-powerful, so of course He is ABLE to "do it right now." But He chooses not to. Being all-powerful, He has the right to make that decision. I have faith that He knows what is best or what best suits His purposes. It is not our place to become impatient and want things (any things) done exactly when we want them to be done. God has His timing. Faith helps you to trust that His timing is far better than our own.

Why do we not have the right to determine our own fate? Surely we have the right to choose what happens to us?

And that is where we really differ. I happen to believe that God DID come down and show himself to us before. Christ is the ultimate example. The others that you cited also count. Outside of the Bible I cannot prove it nor will I attempt to because it cannot be done to the standards that you require. But for my standards, from the scrutiny of my own heart and beliefs, that is all the evidence I need. I understand that it is not the same for you.

You're right, it isn't the same for me. I can't believe it because there is no non-Biblical evidence that it ever happend.

Along those same lines, the appearance of God in person does not guarantee belief. It is recorded where people saw Christ with their own eyes, carried on conversations with Him, saw Him perform His miracles and still did not believe. Does that mean that what is written is not true? Or that Christ was a fake? Some would agree that is true. Others would agree that not everyone wants to believe or ever will believe. A perfect example is what some people have said on the other thread, such as, "Even if God did show Himself and I had no doubt that He existed, I still wouldn't have a need to worship Him." Proof of God does not produce faith in God. There is a difference.

True. But it sure would help things, wouldn't you say?

[Faith in Science and faith in Religion] are different, yes, and I do not attempt to reconcile the two. My original point was simply to say this: You have faith that science has not proven everything YET. I have faith that God has not solved everything YET. And the only thing that either of us can do to see if we are right is to wait.

That's true, but the thing about faith in science is that we have a reason why we don't know everything yet. Simply put, it's because we haven't developed the technology or the understanding. For example, we don't have the technology to create artificial nuclear fusion, which is why we can't do it. And we can't unify the theories of Gravity, Electro-magnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces either, because we don't have the understanding. But we are trying. Religion can't say the same. How does one understand the mind of God? (If he exists, that is.)

Sirius Seeker

December 17th, 2004, 3:56 pm

He must be, you say. But isn't that the only conclusion you can come to if you believe? In an attempt to explain why, you explain it with an unknown. Unknowns aren't really an explanation. After all, what could he be waiting for? What does the Almighty wait for?
I look at it like this: Later on, I am going to go cook something to eat. I am perfectly capable of going to cook something right now, but I choose not to. Does this make me unable to cook because I don't do so immediately? No. I choose not to cook becasue it is 9am, the wrong time. I choose to wait until the right hour when it is dinner time, when I am hungry, and when it best suits my own plans and schedule.

The Almighty waits until He is ready. I don't really consider that an unknown. Again, I believe in the Bible (I know that you don't, but that doesn't affect my beliefs in it) and the Bible does not answer this question with an unknown. Basically it states that God is waiting for the last person to believe (sort of like a pilot waiting for all passengers to board the plane so that no one gets left at the airport) before fully redeeming the world. That is why He waits. In the meantime, we continue to live on the earth to enjoy the good as well as endure the bad.

Also, if he did fix the world, we'd still have the opportunity to do all those wonderful things you mentioned. Yet we could do so without fear of pain, disease, despair, suffering, death... We'd have all the good things without the bad.
Not exactly. When God comes to fully and finally "fix" the world, it is the end of this world. God removes all evil and restores the Eden-like arrangements, the way the world was always intended to be. By doing so, He restores the perfect community and relationship between Himself and humans. So there is the dillema. To have a perfect world, it also has to have perfect unity with God and man. Therefore those who chose not to believe, who didn't want to believe, who believe in other things, who refused to believe, etc will essentially get what they want: eternity without God. But I don't think there should really be such a rush to get to that point. I don't think the world will turn out quite like some imagined it would.

Why do we not have the right to determine our own fate? Surely we have the right to choose what happens to us?
Of course we do. I know that there is still a lot of confusion about the whole free will issue, but I assure you that we DO make our own choices, despite the paradox of God's all-knowing capabilities. I don't want to go into that here, we can save that for the other thread.

But this is my point: I am totally free to choose what I want to do. Turn left or right. Chocolate or vanilla. Khakis or black skirt. Doesn't matter. With bigger life issues, I can choose to go to graduate school in North Carolina or in Tennessee. Take the new job or stay where I am. Have children now or wait until next year. Bigger issues. I can certainly make those decisions completely on my own. But I only know so much and can only see so far. I therefore choose to ask God for His counsel, His input, His direction. I happen to trust that He knows my life, my path, and my situation far better than I do and I choose to listen to Him when He tugs at my heart when making a tough decision.

I do not look at this as God being oppressive, of stripping me of my independence, of being a dictator over my life. I look at this as seeking the advice of an older, wiser friend or parent who only has my best intentions in their heart. We see God differently, therefore we see His involvement in our lives differently. I can choose any path I want, but I trust that if I follow God's gentle instruction that He will never lead me where I am not supposed to go. If you see that as entrapment or as destruction of your independence, then that is your view. But I see it differently. That is why I have no problems with God playing an important role in my life.

Religion can't say the same. How does one understand the mind of God? (If he exists, that is.)
You know what I'm going to say, and I know you don't like this answer, but one understands the mind of God through the Bible. I know all of the objections to it already, but that doesn't change my belief. We cannot expect to know every singe thing about God. Even if we were given all of the information, we could not comprehend it. We already have a hard enough time getting our minds around eternity. No beginning and no end. That is God. Our logical minds cannot concieve of something that always has been and always will be, because our minds only know things that have been created.

Religion can say that it understands God well enough, and that in the end we will know God fully and face-to-face, just as science currently understands itself well enough and in the end will know everything fully and without miscalculation. I do not feel that I have been left in the dark about important religious beliefs. For example, I have no solid understanding of the end times. Few (if any) do. It was written symbolically, as a mystery, and I don't know if anyone ever will figure it out, or if we are even meant to figure it out. Therefore I could care less if we are in a pre-millenial, post-millinial, or current-millinial age. I could care less if the end of the world happens in 5 minutes or 5 thousand years. My faith in God tells me that I will be taken care of, that I was bought with a price and will never perish. The rest is just details. Ultimately it makes no difference to me how those details play out. I know enough about God to willingly take Him at His word and that is sufficient for me.

Tiberius

December 17th, 2004, 11:24 pm

I look at it like this: Later on, I am going to go cook something to eat. I am perfectly capable of going to cook something right now, but I choose not to. Does this make me unable to cook because I don't do so immediately? No. I choose not to cook becasue it is 9am, the wrong time. I choose to wait until the right hour when it is dinner time, when I am hungry, and when it best suits my own plans and schedule.

Yes, but if the fact that you don't cook anything now means that lots of people will suffer horribly and you knew it, then I'd have to question your morality.

The Almighty waits until He is ready. I don't really consider that an unknown. Again, I believe in the Bible (I know that you don't, but that doesn't affect my beliefs in it) and the Bible does not answer this question with an unknown. Basically it states that God is waiting for the last person to believe (sort of like a pilot waiting for all passengers to board the plane so that no one gets left at the airport) before fully redeeming the world. That is why He waits. In the meantime, we continue to live on the earth to enjoy the good as well as endure the bad.

Okay, so God is waiting until EVERYONE believes in him. Let's see how that works down a bit further...

Not exactly. When God comes to fully and finally "fix" the world, it is the end of this world. God removes all evil and restores the Eden-like arrangements, the way the world was always intended to be. By doing so, He restores the perfect community and relationship between Himself and humans. So there is the dillema. To have a perfect world, it also has to have perfect unity with God and man. Therefore those who chose not to believe, who didn't want to believe, who believe in other things, who refused to believe, etc will essentially get what they want: eternity without God. But I don't think there should really be such a rush to get to that point. I don't think the world will turn out quite like some imagined it would.

What evil? Everyone believes, remember?

Zorkwap

December 17th, 2004, 11:28 pm

He did not fix it because He doesn't want to force people to love him, He wants them to love Him out of their own free will, its like in the real world, a good leader is loved because the people love him not because he forces them

Sirius Seeker

December 18th, 2004, 11:59 pm

Okay, so God is waiting until EVERYONE believes in him. Let's see how that works down a bit further...
Not EVERYONE everyone, but everyone who is going to believe everyone. This goes into the whole foreknowledge thing again, but God knows who and how many will be saved. Therefore He is waiting for them.

Sorry I don't have more time for a more informative answer. I'm at home for a family visit and snuck away for a bit...

Tiberius

December 19th, 2004, 12:28 am

So God's waiting until there won't be anymore people who'll believe? Unless you want to consider that one day there simply won't be anymore Christians (which I won't really mind! :p), we'll be waiting forever.

silvercJD4

December 19th, 2004, 12:38 am

Without hardship, there wouldn't be any advancement. If Jesus just fixed everything whenever we asked, we'd more or less be a bunch of spoiled little brats. No diseases? No deaths? No trials and tribulations? Call me odd, weird, or plain old creepy, but if you took problems out of the world, it would be a borring and useless place. What would people do? I don't like to see people die, especially those that I love, but from these deaths come inspirations that spur people to do things and make life-changing advances, that otherwise wouldn't have come about.

kjr99044

December 20th, 2004, 6:06 am

Question (page 2 of this thread):It's like why can't God make something so heavy that He can't lift it? Because there are things that are simply constants of the universe that even God has to deal with...
Alternate Answer:
If God creates something, he has already moved it (into existence. Not just that, but he has set the molecules into motion--all of them).

So really, the question makes no sense. It's analagous to asking if you can think something without thinking it, or Imagine something bigger than you will ever imagine. It's nonsense, Like asking if you can hit a tennis ball without touching it--hitting implies touching. Creating implies moving.

The question is paradoxical and thus confusing.
paradox
n : (logic) a self-contradiction; "`I always lie' is a paradox
because if it is true it must be false"
(dict.org)

So god cannot do things that are simply imposable? Like creating all of reality from nothing? I guess omnipotence just isn’t what it used to be. . . Again, a paradox, or contradiction. By doing something, you show that it's not impossible after all, so this argument is silly.