Questions about house-elves/House-Elf Magic

[daniel4hp]

It appears from Goblet of Fire that house-elves have important magic--Barty Crouch Jr. says this in Goblet of Fire when explaining to Dumbledore. However, the House-elves have long been down-trodden. Dumbledore, however, sees differently.

1. What type of magic do you think that the House-elves have?

2. Do you think that this magic will prove useful in the fight against Voldemort? How so?

Ideas?

[Cho Chang]

1. What type of magic do you think that the House-elves have?

Anicent magic? LOL I think they have forgotten how powerful their magic can be .. because of the bond between the elves and their masters ... so the magic within them ... is really ANCIENT!!!! Since they don't have proper school!! So they didn't get the chance to learn EVERYDAY magic!!! That's my theory!!!

2. Do you think that this magic will prove useful in the fight against Voldemort? How so?

Yes definitely!!!!!! Since they are very loyal to their masters!!! They will aid their master at the darkest time!!!!!

:angel:

[daniel4hp]

Hmmm... I wonder if a house-elf has the ability to do regular magic, or if its restricted to house-elf magic. It seems to me that the house-elf magic is indeed somewhat like ancient magic--it appears not to be learned, but rather aquired...

[Cho Chang]

I think they are BORN with it!!! But they force themselves to conceal it!!

What's the difference between elves magic and wizard/witch magic???

[Benzo]

I am a bit off-topic, but what about is the Potters had a house-elf. Where is he now? What he could bring to the story?

[dorcasderr]

And, since the house-elves are so loyal to their masters how will they get the house elves who are bound to dark wizards to come over to the good side...or won't they?

[daniel4hp]

I think the SPEW thing might have something to do with that, dorcasderr (see the "Book 4: what's important" thread). Somehow I think something is going to happen.

Good point, Benzo: what happen's to a household when they die out or something? Does the house-elf leave? House-elves (on average) don't like being free and consider it shameful. Good point. Ideas, anyone?

[Sinistra]

House elves have strong magic which doesn't need a wand. Dobby just transported Lucius Malfoy elsewhere when he threatened Harry. Inside Hogwarts, where you cannot apparate. That's a feat! So imagine how powerful they would be if they could use wants to augment their powers? I think wizards are somewhat afraid of the house elves, or were in the past when they made the laws that they couldn't use wands. I would like to see more of them, and I'm pretty sure we will. As for "turning" the house elves of evil wizards, that won't happen. The house elves code of honor prohibits it. Dobby is definitely not a "usual" house elf.

[dorcasderr]

At first I wondered, if the Potters indeed did have a house elf, whether the elf went into hiding when the Potters were killed or went to somewhere like Hogwarts where they would just blend in to bide their time. But then, if the elf was that close, why wouldn't he/she have revealed him/herself to Harry before now? Maybe the elf went into service somewhere far, far away.

[Cho Chang]

Hmm .. I don't think the Potters have a house-elf .. if so .. that house-elf/elves would have gone to Dumbledore for help? (maybe even work at Hogwarts?) Beside, I think the house-elf will die from grief since the Potters were killed!! And I am sure they are good people!!:angel:

I was amazed to read the part about Dobby stopped Malfoy from hurting Harry at the end of Book2 and without a WAND too!!! And then disappeared with a pop!!! That's really power magic!!! (Without learning through schooling)

I don't think a LOYAL house-elf of a dark wizard will turn to the good side that easily!!!

And it's right!! Dobby is a one-of-a-kind house-elf!!!

[daniel4hp]

I think the reason the House-elves were enslaved originally was because wizards were afraid of them. How that they have been in this state for probably thousands of years, they consider it normal and proper. However, if they should decide to use their powers for a higher calling, I believe that they could do wonders. This is where SPEW comes in.

[dorcasderr]

Afraid of them? Interesting thought. Because of the POWER of their untaught magic? It makes sense.

[daniel4hp]

Yes, it is my belief that House-elves possess a very unique magic that has its own power. Its different than wizard's magic, but it is certainly important, and because its different, house-elves might be able to use it to control an unexpecting wizard. However, wizard's magic, which is different than house-elves, was used to round up the house-elves and enslave them, thus ending the threat. Notice how Dobby can do something akin to Aparating (which is probably how they get around the castle without being seen) and Winky somehow tied Barty Crouch Jr. to herself. The same Barty made a reference house-elf magic at the end of GoF. While this wasn't extensive, it indicated that there are other forms of house-elf magic as well. Notice how apparently Winky overpowered Barty, which show's that it can be done.

[Cho Chang]

I think so too!! So who made the elves' ensalvement? Some wizards / witches from ancient times?? I do believe someone from ancient times found out the great magical power within elves and afraid they can take over the magical world! And Hermione gonna make them realize they have powers ..... really strong magic power!!!

[Cat]

Originally posted by Cho Chang
And Hermione gonna make them realize they have powers ..... really strong magic power!!!

'Make them realise'? I should hope that from S.P.E.W she learned that she can't stir up a great revolution that easily. Certainly not by being condescending and disregarding the elf ways!

[Kneazle]

Very good points, Daniel. :tu: It's certainly plausible that wizards were once afraid of them. . . I wonder if they've always been subservient creatures, or if it's something that was instilled in them throughout the ages?

1. What type of magic do you think that the House-elves have?
Well, it's obviously very powerful magic. I think it's the same magic that wizards have, but the house elves are more in-touch with it.

2. Do you think that this magic will prove useful in the fight against Voldemort? How so?
Perhaps. They could be spies. House elves of Dark Wizards could divulge secrets, etc. There'd have to be some sort House-Elf uprising first. Just look at Dobby and Winky. They don't like getting caught up in things and just want to do their work and mind their business. It's hard to imagine House-Elves using their magic to help fight. :shrug:

[daniel4hp]

I think that they know they have powers, and I think Hermione can make them see how big these powers are. They won't object to that. And perhaps now that Voldemort is back, she can make them see that they can serve their masters by fighting Voldemort... *looks hopeful*

[Elangomatt]

Originally posted by daniel4hp
(which is probably how they get around the castle without being seen)

That never even occured to me. I have always wondered how house elves got around.

I agree with alot of you. I think that house elves have a unique kind of magic and they will come in very happy since the dark side would never consider House Elves a threat.

[raeredeyes]

1. What type of magic do you think that the House-elves have?
What ever it is, it has to be powerful. Perhaps some of it may be connected to house services, but there would be other things that they could do.
Perhaps they can perform powerful protective magic, as they tend to be loyal to their masters and they act as secret keepers for their masters.

2. Do you think that this magic will prove useful in the fight against Voldemort? How so?
It would be useful because i think that any sort of magic will be needed to fight Voldemort.

There's not many clues to base any hypotheses on...I think i'll just have to wait and see.

[Manyasha]

I tend to agree with Daniel on most points. But did anyone mention that house elves are not allowed to use wands? Maybe if they did, they were as powerful as wizards?:wow:

[Sinistra]

When Dobby first comes to Harry he says how Harry is revered by the House Elves and their like because things were very bad for them when Voldemort was around. Of course things are not better for Dobby, but Harry eventually frees Dobby, thereby earning Dobby's eternal (if misguided) gratitude and loyalty.

I think the House Elves and other non-human but sentient magical creatures (especially centaurs) are more aware of Voldemort and what he can do that the human wizards are. They also seem to be very afraid of him. But the humans, in their arrogance and perceived superiority don't pay attention to those beings. Except a few like Dumbledore and possibly Arthur Weasley. It's just another facet of having proper wizarding pride--wizards are better and stronger than anything else and we'll stomp you until you agree too. That may be one reason there were so many goblin rebellions. Goblins wanted equality or at least autonomy. And they got it, too. What side will they be on in the coming conflict?

[daniel4hp]

Its hard to say what would happen if a house-elf used a wand. I'm not sure that their magic is such that it needs a wand--if that were so then a wand would not help them. Or, perhaps they only use the type of magic that doesn't need a wand since they are never provided with such a device.

I am inclined to think, although I may be wrong, that house-elf magic is different than human magic, and, because of this, a wand would be of little help. I think JK will stress the fact that we need to work together, each using the abilities that we have, to reach a common goal. We see that with wizards, and I think she will show us this in a greater way by having house-elves aid by doing things that humans could never do, while the humans use their tools to fight how they can.

[cristalfairy]

1. What type of magic do you think that the House-elves have?
I think their magic is hereditary, and very powerful. I don’t think they aparate perse my theory about the way they move around the castle is that they do something that is like aparating but somehow the procedure is different but the final result is the same, kind of like reading you have the regular way and you have the way blind people do it, the Braille way. Like their own personal trade mark magic.
We know they can be transferred because there is a Department of relocation of elves in the MoM. So probably some of them have been with different families and that could be helpful. As to the next question:
2. Do you think that this magic will prove useful in the fight against Voldemort? How so?
Since they were abused creatures, before Harry defeated Voldemort and were kind of liberated when Harry defeated him; I hope that because of the admiration they feel for Harry, they can be persuaded to work as spies or something similar for the good side. I know they are very faithful to their masters, but in a family you have different members and you could have a member who does not support Voldemort and to protect that member they can work for the good side and still be faithful to that family, am I making sense? you could have it the other way around, and have only one member of a family that supports Voldemort and to protect the rest of the family the house elves may work for the good side. Again keeping their loyalty to their family.

I love house elves specially Dobby, and I hope we get to see more of them, Dobby could be an ambassador between the elves and the wizard world. And even if the elves don’t want to spy for the good side Dobby can always manage to get some secret, maybe getting some house elf drunk with butterbeer, just an idea.

[Ashkins]

I would like to know more about Dobby's powers.. at the end of Chamber of Secrets Lucious was about to attack Harry when Dobby raised his finger and said he will not harm Harry Potter. (imagine him saying that hehehe)

For Lucious who thinks he is powerful to seem to be afraid of Dobby... makes me wonder how powerful they are...

I also think Winky finally being free because her owners are dead rather than being let go will start taking care of herself again.

[faubert]

Its possible that Dobby was the Potter's House-Elf. What if after the death of the Potter's Malfoy found Dobby and claimed him as HIS House-Elf. We don't know what happens to a house-Elf if his/her master dies before being set free.

I think that Malfoy's father who was working for VOldermot was at the Potter house and found Dobby. I think that as the first wizard to find Dobby Malfoy claimed him as his own House-Elf which Dobby had no choice but to accept.

We now turn to COS Dobby finds out that Harry is in danger and goes to warn him and keep him away from Hogwart's. He is conflicted because he belonged to the Potter's but now belongs to Malfoy. So he had to keep the Malfoy secrets while trying to serve Harry by protecting him.

[Ashkins]

I hadn't thought of that but it does make sense... seems pure blood families with money have house elves.. the Potters were an old family from what I have gathered and had money.

[daniel4hp]

An interesting theory... its possible.

[Ashkins]

wait though... wouldn't that legally make Harry Dobby's owner?? though Harry was just an infant? Lucious would have ahd to break the law to get Dobby. Unless he was like entrusted to him till Harry was older.

interesting interesting

[faubert]

Harry was taken away to live with his family in the muggle world and I would think that it is ilegal for house elves to livei n the muggle world.

I could see the ministry awarding Dobby to Malfoy until Harry reaches proper age. Or Malfoy could of just taken Dobby away. I could see Malfoy at the Potter house finding Dobby and telling him that he was his now.

Malfoy could of told Dobby that Harry was in the muggle world and that Dobby could notfollow and that Harry would be in danger again if he left the muggle world.

WHich would explain hs actions in COS. Dobby could not stop Harry from going away to Hogwarts his first year because of Hagrid and Dumbledore. But he got his chance the second year.

He remembered Malfoy's warning of Harry being in danger if he goes to Hogwarts and did everythign in his power to stop him. But Dobby failed because Harry would not listen and Dobby pirority was protectign his real Master Harry not obeying Malfoy.

[Ashkins]

bump

[LizardLaugh]

I couldn't begin to speculate on House Elf magic. It is obviously quite powerful. The apparating bit -- just a thought, perhaps it is only humans who are barred from apparating on Hogwarts grounds. House Elves have legit business popping around the castle. So, perhaps the enchantment disallowing apparation excepts them.

Now, IIRC, the House Elves in Harry Potter are based on the Scottish Brownies (btw, the Girl Scout Brownies are named after them). They show up in the night to clean things. It is what they live for. They aren't slaves. They pick their households, and they are picky. They are also extremely loyal. If you try to pay them, the go away forever. IF you leave them clothes, they will go away forever. They will only accept bits of food. BTW, you don't want to piss off a Brownie. They could supposedly wreak havoc if you made them mad enough. The reason I bring this up is because we (and Hermione) assume that the House Elves are slaves. Several here are talking about how/when/why humans may have enslaved House Elves. I don't think we should assume that they were ever enslaved. In fact, I don't think they ever were. I think the House Else enslavement is purely House Elf imposed, deciding that they must be what a House Elf is supposed to be. That isn't to say I don't think they aren't important or won't play a big role or maybe even decide to 'rise up' against their bad masters. In fact, I bet some will. Much like Dobby. I think it fits in with the whole 'choose your destiny' theme. A House Elf may have a certain nature, and most House Elves may be perfectly ahppy fulfilling that loyal servant role. I think Fred and George have the right idea. House Elves are happy. I think the ones aren't, will do something about it. Like Dobby.

[crafty girl]

Is anyone else really interested to find out more about the house-elves? I know a lot of people find them annoying, but I think they might play a bigger role in the coming books.
Anyhow, here are my questions...

Why are they tied to certain families? Is it a type of magic, or just something inherent in their nature?
How old do they get to be? Would they outlive a witch or wizard and spend a long time serving the same family?

What do you think?

[harryton]

i think that after book 4, yes they will play a big role in future books. And hermonie will not give up on SPEW. I would like to find out more about their magic cause we really dont know anything about them.

[Picko]

Well they are obviously powerful magically because Dobby can apparate within Hogwarts and Hogwarts is apparently apparate-proof. I do think they will play a large part in the future books. I wouldn't be surprised to see Dumbledore get them on the side of good I can imagine they'd be pretty good allies.

[applepie15]

Originally posted by Picko
Well they are obviously powerful magically because Dobby can apparate within Hogwarts and Hogwarts is apparently apparate-proof.

I agree that they are powerful. When did it say that Dobby apparated? I guess I just don't remember. But he did use his magic on Lucius in the 2nd book after he had been freed and Lucius couldn't do anything about it. :elaugh:

[Picko]

I agree that they are powerful. When did it say that Dobby apparated? I guess I just don't remember. But he did use his magic on Lucius in the 2nd book after he had been freed and Lucius couldn't do anything about it.

In the hospital wing Dobby disappears

"Dobby must go!" breathed the elf, terrified. There was a loud crack,
and Harry's fist was suddenly clenched on thin air. He slumped back
into bed, his eyes on the dark doorway to the hospital wing as the
footsteps drew nearer.

[Spitf1re]

I would like to have some more information about the house elves in Book 5. Honestly I dont know why people need house elves, they got a wand dont they? House elves could revolt, but noone does because of their tradition. Why do house elves work in the Hogwarts kitchen? Can't food be magically conjured? I guess it gives them something to do.

[Picko]

I would like to have some more information about the house elves in Book 5. Honestly I dont know why people need house elves, they got a wand dont they? House elves could revolt, but noone does because of their tradition. Why do house elves work in the Hogwarts kitchen? Can't food be magically conjured? I guess it gives them something to do.

To be honest I don't think they can revolt, they are slaves and that is part of their slavery. The moment they are handed clothes they are free of their slavery and free to do as they please. I doubt very much that they have the power to just leave their owner when they feel like it, after all Crouch told Winky "...this means clothes" which implies that this is the only way to get rid of a House-Elf which would also mean they cannot leave on their own accord.

[Cat]

I don't think house elves are annoying! Some people need a more elasticated sense of humour.

Incidentally, I'm not sure agree with the ethics of SPEW (what an odd thing to say). I think Hermione was incredibly condescending to presume she could change their lives so easily. We don't even know why they do what they do. It really could be in their natures to serve. That's not such an unbelievable thing, in a world of boggarts, grindylows and garden gnomes.

[SunKissed]

Sorry this is kinda off the main subject but it is about house elves. Well how did you get a house elf? I know that some are just in the family. This is kind of weird to think about but what if you had two house leves and they had a baby house elf. Is that even possible? Is there a shop where if you had never had a house elf you can buy one? That would probably mean house elf breeding! Ahh! :censored: So many questions! Sorry again about getting off topic!

[Cat]

If they wanted the extra hands, they'd probably keep the house elf children. But if not, and they're very cruel masters, they would probably sell them.

And the house elf parents would have to let them.

[dorcasderr]

It is interesting that a people so magical as house elves, who not only can apparate at will, but perform magic that the MOM blames on others, as Dobby did to Harry, can be kept in slavery. It may go back to old magic.

[familiar]

The house elves are from old stories like the story of the shoemaker and the elves. They did odd jobs during the night and if you made them clothes they would leave. But they would also leave if the household wasn't good enough. That's why JKR has them living in mansions. I rather suspect that if the Malfoys went broke their house elves would walk out on them without getting clothes first.

[crafty girl]

Good questions, SunKissed!! Maybe it's because I'm from the US where, historically, slavery has always been a big issue, but there are a lot of very disturbing questions in my mind about the lives of the house-elves. I know that in Swedish folktales, at least, there are a lot of stories about helpful elf-like creatures called Nisses. But the difference is a nisse can leave if you don't treat it right. What worries me about the house-elves is that they can't. I don't think it's just their minds holding them back. I hope they get freed!!!

[Snowangel]

I, too, am against the slavery that the house elves are in. I really want to know everything about how they got to be in their situation, what's keeping them there, and how they could change. I'm curious about this and I personally think that, although SPEW might not have been able to change things, that I still deeply admire Hermione for the desire to change a situation that she thinks is wrong.

Anyways, I also want to find out how houses get house elves. There's a lot that we just don't know yet.

[SunKissed]

Originally posted by Snowangel
I, too, am against the slavery that the house elves are in. I really want to know everything about how they got to be in their situation, what's keeping them there, and how they could change. I'm curious about this and I personally think that, although SPEW might not have been able to change things, that I still deeply admire Hermione for the desire to change a situation that she thinks is wrong.

Anyways, I also want to find out how houses get house elves. There's a lot that we just don't know yet.

I completely agree. I would join SPEW!

[storb]

Why did Dobby even come to warn Harry? My thoughts are that he is a spy for Lucius Malfoy and the deatheaters. Just as Winky performed the evil deeds of her master, Dobby is still aligned with his old master. Houseelves could prove to be one of the most powerful allies to the dark wizards.

All that hand ironing is just a rouse to trick the over trusting trio!

Ever Vigilant!
Storb

[crafty girl]

I don't think Dobby is evil! He's like the Frederick Douglas of the house-elves! Besides, he was freed, so he has no reason to be doing evil deeds for Malfoy. He's just a forward thinking house-elf. Someone has to be first.

[1MelissaPotter]

I don't think Dobby would do anythign for Draco or any of the Malfoys. I think he hates them, after how they treated him I wouldn't anything for them. And Dobby is free now he wouldn't go back into service and give up all his socks! lol

[WhiteSlash]

They aren't even in the Fantastic Beasts book!! They're magical creatures too!!!! Sorry, I went a little Hermione on ya...Yeah, we'll find out more in future books.

[Snowangel]

What's so fascinating is why house elves have so much magical power. It really is surprising that they don't stand up for themselves more. I really want to understand more about their powers, why they have so much power, and why they can't be more a part of the magical world.

[WhiteSlash]

Really, why don't they. Are they brainwashed like Hermione said or are they just to pitiful to fight back?

[esmarelda]

I think it's interesting that crafty girl mentions real-life slavery. Because the house-elves are not at all like real-life slaves. In real life, slaves revolted all the time, and were very aware of how unfair their situation was.

I hope that we find out that house-elves are under some kind of huge Imperius curse or something. The way they're described in the books (Dobby excepted) makes them sound so miserably ignorant, and like they're "destined" to serve. I know it's "just a book" (sacrilege!), but I seriously cringe all through book 4 when they talk about house elves. I would hope that characters like Ron, his brothers, and Dumbledore wouldn't condone slavery. I also hope people don't think that real life slaves were like that.

[I_Luv_Snakes]

Oh they definately are nothing like real life slaves. The House-Elfs love their work, and they enjoy living that way. I mean, I enjoy my work, and if I didnt get paid I wouldn't care because I love doing it!!

Although, I sort of NEED to get paid, because I need to eat, and have shelter... But the House-Elfs already have food and shelter provided. Even Dobby didn't want a lot of money, just enough to buy himself a sock or two occasionally, or whatever.

[winky]

I've thought for a long time that the house elves would come in real handy in the fight against Voldemort. Especially considering Dumbledore has the largest group of them at his fingertips, bending to his every command. I think house elves will be in the "infantry" in the battle against Voldemort.

[ilovelifex1000]

We know that DD wants to out reach to Giants and other sorts of magical beings, whose to say he won't ask house elves for help. I don't know if he will ask the 100 plus that are subservient to him, because he is an honest person and knows they wouldn't say no even if they really were not interested or capable of helping, so maybe he is going to recruit.

[MadMagic]

I think that the house elves have a very powerful magic. There is a theory about creatures with long fingers being very powerful. Dumbledore, Voldemort, and Dobby are all mentioned as having long fingers. Dobby is also able the apparate into Hogwarts in book 2 when Harry is in the Hospital. That has to be some very powerful magic if he was able to do that. Also all the things that Dobby did in his quest to protect Harry required very powerful magic. I think that the House Elves at Hogwarts could play a huge role in the future. There must be hundreds of them there, all very loyal to Dumbledore, their master. So I definately don't think we have seen the last of the power of the House Elves.

[Fuchsia]

It is also said that those with long fingers are gay. :)
But that's another story...

This is a interesting idea. I wonder if Dumbledore will have the house elves working for them?
What if the DE's have their house elves doing jobs for them?
They could get into the school grounds and do things to students.

[MadMagic]

Maybe the house elves at Hogwarts are another way in which Harry Harry is protected. But if Dobby was able to get into Hogwarts in CoS it is possible that another House elf could get in and try to harm students. That wouldn't be good.

[Fuchsia]

Dobby would protect Harry from any rogue house-elves but I think it is highly likely that the De's would put them up to no good.

[MadMagic]

i could kind of see Dobby becoming Harry's like personal body guard. Dobby would love to hang out with Harry all the time, and I am sure Harry would just be thrilled about the whole situation.:p

[Fuchsia]

Harry would rather be at risk then have Dobby with him all of the time.

[MadMagic]

No kidding. That would get so annoying to have Dobby around all the time. It would probably be annoying to read about as well.

[Fuchsia]

Oh dear it would be annoying to read!! So long as Winky doesn't become Hermione's body guard. Noooo!!!!!

[MadMagic]

That would be aweful having drunk, crying Winky around all the time wallowing in her misery.

[Fuchsia]

I would love to do something hurtful to Winky. Maybe she'll accidentally blow herself up.

[MadMagic]

That would be so sad.

[Andora]

I have to agree that House-Elves must have a really powerful magic. They can do things that I'm sure many wizards couldn't do with a wand, but I also think House-Elves can use wands.

Remember in Goblet of Fire, all the men accused Winky, a house-elf, of making the dark mark, WITH a wand, which suggests they believe house-elves are capable of doing wizarding magic as well as their own elfy magic.

The magic House-Elves have on their own is powerful, and most likely ancient. They can incite all sorts of things if they think they are doing it for the right reasons, which is usually their masters reasons/wishes.

I don't think however that many elves are going to turn against their dark wizarding families, no matter how much they dislike or fear them, it's some weird house-elf code. But I think it is some type of untapped power that might be able to help the good side in the eventual fight, I'm just not sure how, maybe all the good families will release their elf from bondage, thereby enhancing their powers because the elves no longer have to answer to anyone.

[Fuchsia]

Originally posted by Cat (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=153955#post153955))
It really could be in their natures to serve. That's not such an unbelievable thing, in a world of boggarts, grindylows and garden gnomes.


It may not be unusual to want to serve but beating themselves up?
That's misery.

[MadMagic]

Do they all beat themselves up or is that just Dobby. I don't think all house elves are as unhappy as he was.

[Fuchsia]

That it can happen though.....They could at least regulate it better...Give them servants rights or something. If they can't help themselves to not be beaten well? Someone should help.
Liking to serve shouldn't make someone bound to it long after they may want to leave.

And there are other rich families with manors like the Malfoys. Malfoy's friends.

[MadMagic]

A lot of them do like it too though. But I agree that if they want to leave they should be able to. Seeing Dobby beat himself up was always a sad sight.

[Fuchsia]

Liking something and feeling you have to do it are two different things.
Winky was more concerned about upholding family honor than the joy of the job.
Sometimes people will become a cobbler because their dad was a cobbler even though they don't care a fig about being a cobbler.

Houselves will forever be kept down though. They do it to themselves just as much as the wizards do it to them.
Winky was brainwashed from infancy I suspect. She doesn't care about herself at all, just the family she served.

Wow, what an unloving community they have there.

[MadMagic]

Yes, it really is. Hopefully Dobby can help more of them se the light, so to speak.

I love the cobbler analogy:D

[Fuchsia]

Thanks. Cobblers rule.

Dobby seems to care more about the rest of the houseelves than, well, the rest of them.

[Basilisk Slayer]

I dont think this was a subject before due to the fact that is it indeed a stupid question... but, how did Dobby apperate into the Dursleys house? I saw on another thread they said Dumbldore had put up Ancient protection around the house so Voldemort could not get in... So Dobby did not climb up the side of the house...into the window... he had to have apperated into Harry's bedroom... So then why couldent Voldemort just apperate into Harry's room? Is Dobby exempt from this protection?

[Filius Flitwick]

Maybe it is protected against people with evil intentions, and since Dobby thought he was helping Harry there wasn't any problem with him apparating.

[Guardian Angel]

The house elves have some kind of magic. I can only persume that apparating is one of their capabilities.

[Filius Flitwick]

I don't think the question was about a house elf's ability, rather that there should have been protection around the house(like Hogwarts) to prevent apparating to or from the location.

[harrythebest]

I'm not sure Dobby apparated... House-elves might have a different way to go from one place to another.

[Shoujo Kitsune]

you can't aparate in Hogwarts...*Hermione roling her eyes...*

Dobby came with Lucius...he was there to watch Draco's first match and then again at the end....

Cheers

[Basilisk Slayer]

Maybe they do have a different method of apparating... Although I agree with Flit more on the subject i mean how else would he have done it?... If he did not apparate he did somthing very allike becuase all he does is flick his fingers and poof he is gone... I dont know though. It seems to me Dumbledore would just have put up a magical barrier regardless of intensions...

[Moonlight]

The question isn't stupid t all...
I always assumed that he came in through the window *shrug*
Well, Elves aren't exactly human, so maybe the charms/sells/enchantments around the Dursley's doesn't affect them.

[Cat]

House elves have a different magic to humans. I'm sure there has been solid evidence for this somewhere in the books. If the Dursley house is protected, it will be protected from wizard magic.

[Basilisk Slayer]

Oh okey... Well I guess that clears things up a bit. It was just odd when that came to me a while back.

[Shi]

I think Dobby just popped up in the house, just like he popped out of it after smashing the pudding. I wouldn't call this apparating though, because I consider that a wizard-only thing. I think this ability is the house-elf equivelent to apparating, and it comes easily to elves, while wizards have to train to be able to apparate. I agree with Cat, house-elf magic is different from wizard magic, so the protection does not apply to it.

[dorcasderr]

It is part of the nature of house-elves to be able to get around without being seen. So, I assume that the ability to do something which approximates apparating is second nature to them. Not learned...an inherent ability. Who would have thought to protect the Dursleys from house elves. Dobby is able to appear at will within Hogwarts, in which you cannot apparate. Therefore what house elves do is not apparating, but looks like it.

[Spitf1re]

I think that Dumbledore's protecton was to keep Voldemort, a human out of the Dursley's house. Dobby isn't human and has a completely different brand of magic. Dobby can do the apparate-within-Hogwarts-without-apparating thing when there are protections there too. Maybe the apparate protection at the Dursley's is the same as the one at Hogwarts.

[Shoujo Kitsune]

I do agree with all of you, but if a house-elf could break the magic, then Voldemort would have just sent a house elf to kill Harry....if he was smart enough to think of that.....

[pasalita]

FYI: I've merged Basilisk Slayer's thread called "How did Dobby get into the Dursley's home?" to this thread since, to reply to his very valid question, members have referred back to the analysis of House-elf magic.

So, just to re-post Basilisk Slayer's question, since it's an interesting, but related, one to the questions asked here:

How did Dobby get into the Dursley's home?

And, my ponderings:

I suspect that one of the reasons why it's so difficult to explain and pinpoint an actual reason as to how he was able to "pop up" in both the Dursley's abode and Hogwarts is because it's a magic that hasn't yet been measured/witnessed at length. I mean, to take on Hermoine's activism for a moment: This is a species of creature that has been repressed for many years and, well, used for manual labor. In fact, other than Dobby, most houseelves we've been introduced to do nothing but manual labor. So, who's really able to say with confidence that house-elves do not possess a magical ability equal, if not greater, than that of witches/wizards?

Again, it's been a while since I've read the novels, but I don't recall any mention about any type of law constraining house-elf magic. Nor do I recall any mention of them as a "fantastic beast" (i.e. no true measurement of their possible magical abilities exist in the Wizarding World.)

To vibe with Picko: Dobby has been able to do what Voldemort theoretically cannot - He has been able to bypass whatever spell Dumbledore has placed on the Dursley home as well as get into Hogwarts inconspicuously; not only was he able to get in, but he also got out without anyone but Harry knowing (or so, we've seen.) Moreover, he was able to tamper with things (i.e. the 9 and 3/4 gate and the bludger) that, again theoretically, no wizard has access to or any concept as to how to tamper with.

Clearly, Dobby used a magic only known and harnessed by house-elves to enter the Dursley’s home. So, if this is true, it begs a question one can only hope will be touched on in Book 5 and brought into more light in books 6 and 7:

How powerful is house-elf magic?

[Weatherby]

Excellent post pasalita. :)
I think we're going to see a lot more of what house elves can really do in the upcoming books.
We may even see more like Dobby. They can't all be as brainwashed as Winky or as content as the Hogwarts Elves. (It's easy for them to pass judgement considering they have the nicest master to work for.)
I've always thought the reason they were kept down is because they have strong ties to magic. It may be unadulturated since they don't need wands.

[Barbara Kennedy]

Whether they are "kept down" remains to be established as well.

[black&potter]

i believe they are born with the talent and abilities to do just about anything they need too. the bond or binding between them and there master may limit them to what they can do. personally i think there probably as powerful as goblins but not quite as clever

[Shoujo Kitsune]

Weatherby, I hope you are right, I hope we do see more of their powers in the next few books, esp. book 5...There is just way too much about them to be kept secret...

[Weatherby]

Originally posted by Barbara Kennedy (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=271147#post271147))
Whether they are "kept down" remains to be established as well.


Even if there is no spell bounding them to their masters mentally they are. Dobby hurt himself whenever he spoke against his masters.

[Fuchsia]

They are kept down. If they can't get themselves out of a bad situation they want to be in than that means kept down.

[Weatherby]

There was no support system set in place for those house elves who did want to leave their masters.

[Shoujo Kitsune]

As we saw with Winky, The other house-elves look down upon her for being thrown out and Dobby for wanting to get paid...Hermione had a point with trying to establish that "support system", then they would no longer need to be suppressed, they could have a choice...

EDIT: Hey, wow! I made fourth year!

[Weatherby]

Exactly mme.ravenclaw.
The house elves should be allowed to choose who they serve. Dobby and Winky's setup with Dumbledore is a start.

[Shoujo Kitsune]

Absolutely! They have it good with him, I hope we see more of that in the coming book, but given the disgruntled clue (I won't go any furthur for those who don't want to know) we may see less of it...unfortunately

[supernatural]

I'm watching COS (again) and it just struck me. How on earth did dobby find harry potter while he was living with the dursleys?
IF he has a secret keeper - which seems to be a popular theory, then nobody would be able to find where he lives.
I could understand Ron knowing, and Hermionie, but Dobby? The Malfoys House Elf? the only way he'd know was if the malfoys knew- which would mean the Dursleys house isn't as safe as Dumbledore assures us it is.

What are your thoughts on this???
:??:

[harp230]

Maybe it is part of the special power house-elves have. Perhaps they have some sort of tracking abilities but cannot divulge what they know even if it is nothing to do with their own masters....

[harp230]

I just found this thread. I am reading it now for a few questions I have. "Questions about house-elves/House-Elf Magic". Sorry it is not a link... Can someone show me how to make it a link?

[Dedalus]

Just because the Secret Keeper theory is popular, doesn't mean it's right. Harry probably (and almost certainly, in my opinion) doesn't have a Secret Keeper, and so Dobby could find him easily, without the spell getting in the way.

I think that the spell either directly protects Harry from Voldemort, or generally, from harm. Dobby isn't either Voldemort or harmful (well ... not intentionally. Not without cause, anyway).

[Barbara Kennedy]

Originally posted by harp230 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=290582#post290582))
I just found this thread. I am reading it now for a few questions I have. "Questions about house-elves/House-Elf Magic". Sorry it is not a link... Can someone show me how to make it a link?

Sorry I don't know how either, so I use it in a search. At least i use key words like "house-elf" or "house-elves" in this case.

[Kneazle]

Originally posted by harp230 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=290582#post290582))
I just found this thread. I am reading it now for a few questions I have. "Questions about house-elves/House-Elf Magic". Sorry it is not a link... Can someone show me how to make it a link?

Thanks for pointing this out. I'll merge this thread with the one you mentioned.

To post a link you type out:

[url=http://www.yourlink.com]What you want the link to say[/*url]

Just leave out the asterisk (*).

Alternatively, you can click the "http://" tab found above the text field when you reply to a topic. It'll bring you through it. :)

[harp230]

On the issue of house elves, the elves cannot share their families secrets, but does that include to other members of the family? Winky apparently knew that Crouch Jr had quite sinister intentions, but did Crouch Sr know he was so willing to help Voldemort? I doubt it. so that would indicate that Winky( or other house elves) won't even give secrets even within the family? Any thoughts how this could play into future plots?

[Barbara Kennedy]

Thanks, Kneazle, maybe we need a thread posted somewhere about how to do things like that?

[Silk E Smooth]

I've question Dobby's ability to get in the Dursley's house before. The best answer I got was that perhaps only those that want to harm Harry are blovked. The Weasley have also been able to find Harry at the Dursley's and gotten in.

[Perdita]

Good thing I found Daniel’s thread! There’s been such a great discussion going on and I’ve been missing out. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by daniel4hp (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=19727#post19727))
I think the reason the House-elves were enslaved originally was because wizards were afraid of them. How that they have been in this state for probably thousands of years, they consider it normal and proper. However, if they should decide to use their powers for a higher calling, I believe that they could do wonders. This is where SPEW comes in.


I agree, SPEW will be revisited in the later books, and it will be a powerful campaign against Voldemort, or the wizarding world in general. This last bit is a bit stretched, I know, but it’s a really exciting idea to me.

Anyway, I have a question. If the house-elves were enslaved by wizards and witches because the humans were afraid of the house-elves' powerf, then why didn’t they just defy the wizards and witches? Why did they agree to be slaves?

Dobby and Winky have both shown that house-elves are quite intelligent creatures, and not as simple-minded and muddled as their speech patterns suggests.

What if the house-elves were at one point simply elves, and were free beings? What if they committed some crime against the human wizards and witches, and to punish them they were made into slaves? They seem to be benevolent creatures, and that’s why they agreed to this form of punishment, knowing full well that they were in the wrong first?

1. What type of magic do you think that the House-elves have?
I think that their magic is hereditary, and it has been so all along. It is very powerful, even more powerful than human magic if the house-elves care to focus on using it for a greater purpose. In the beginning of COS, Dobby says that he isn’t allowed to use wands. I’m wondering, do they need wands to begin with? They’ve been told they can’t use them, but even without wands, they can do spectacular magic. So, is that another case of brainwashing? That they can’t do powerful magic unless they have a wand, and since they’ll never be allowed to use any wands, there’s not point to trying to do complicated magic to escape or obtain emancipation?

2. Do you think that this magic will prove useful in the fight against Voldemort? How so?
I hope it will.

I am thinking that if there are a lot more house-elves like Winky and Dobby, who are working in the homes of prominent wizards and witches. Their numbers alone could be a force to contend with. If SPEW takes a different turn and becomes a campaign to secretly work against anti-DD members of MOM and Voldemort’s followers, then we might see an uprising that began with the purpose of obtaining freedom, but ends up being an uprising against Voldemort and to a lesser extent, the MOM. This way, they are helping Harry, who is supposedly tremendously revered by the house-elf population.

[harp230]

[quote][i]Originally posted by Perdita
Anyway, I have a question. If the house-elves were enslaved by wizards and witches because the humans were afraid of the house-elves' powerf, then why didn’t they just defy the wizards and witches? Why did they agree to be slaves?

Maybe the elves are just afraid because of the size difference. Maybe their powers are under so conditional nature. Maybe there is some sort of binding magical contract that they are under. Maybe tricked into that contract or something. Who knows how long this has been going on and I guess for a very long time. Maybe it was set up as some sort of pact to protect the elves from someone or something. Perhaps the wizards are abusing the pact. The elves could be quite brainwashed.

[FawkesBox]

Originally posted by harp230 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=307606#post307606))
[quote][i]Originally posted by Perdita
Anyway, I have a question. If the house-elves were enslaved by wizards and witches because the humans were afraid of the house-elves' powerf, then why didn’t they just defy the wizards and witches? Why did they agree to be slaves?

Maybe the elves are just afraid because of the size difference. Maybe their powers are under so conditional nature. Maybe there is some sort of binding magical contract that they are under. Maybe tricked into that contract or something. Who knows how long this has been going on and I guess for a very long time. Maybe it was set up as some sort of pact to protect the elves from someone or something. Perhaps the wizards are abusing the pact. The elves could be quite brainwashed.


This is a good point. House elves do not seem to be the brightest of creatures and "signing" a binding magical contract (as in the Goblet of Fire) has already been mentioned. Certainly something like this will be confirmed in future books, probably through the research of Hermione.:p

[Goldie]

Back to the original questions, if I may -

1. What type of magic do you think that the House-elves have?

Native, hereditary, and powerful enough that they can apparate and disapparte at will at Hogwarts, which, per "Hogwarts, a History" (I would love to read that book!) is impossible.

It occurs to me that maybe the reason they can apparate/disapparate within Hogwarts is the same reason Sirius could get out of Azkaban - they use the magical equivalent of flying in under the radar. In other words, their magic is so "pure" and uncomplicated that it's routinely overlooked. So no one guards against it.

2. Do you think that this magic will prove useful in the fight against Voldemort? How so?

All magic will be useful, but especially the house elves', because Voldie won't think they're worth bothering about. Since he has a history of ignoring the little things - details that later turn out to be very important - the elves will be left alone. They'll just come in under his radar and help bring him down once and for all.

[Barbara Kennedy]

It is just another case of his arrogance blinding him to a potential danger to himself or his plans. He doesn't see it as a possible danger, so he ignores it.

[supernatural]

i agree barbara- V will overlook the house elves power because he will underestimate them, seeing them as inferiors, as he will have a blind spot in this particular area, this will be a major advantage for the good guys i reckon.

[Barbara Kennedy]

That idea ties in with a post I made in a thread that is currently MIA in The Great Hall, "Voldemort's Weakness".

[Do any of the Mods think that a couple of the similar House-elf threads should be merged?]

[umfridus]

Even the most powerful wizards cannot do much without a wand, but Dobby was able to do a Hover Charm, call on a freak bludger, knock back Lucius and disapparate with a flick of fingers. Surely he doesn't have a wand and haven't attended school to learn all the incantations? I'm wondering how the house elves are able to do these tricks. Would they become potentially better magic users than the humans after some training?

[JofpGallagher]

Was not in the movie only that Dobby could do that spell agaisnt Malfoy? Or also in the book? I can't recall it right now, but I think it was on the movie only.
But yes, they have certain powers, but I doubt they can defeat a wand-armed wizard. Dobby disapparate without a wand but I think also wizards or witches do not need one to do so.

[umfridus]

In the book, Lucius was thrown backwards and crashed downstairs following a big bang. He later took out his wand but retreated when Dobby 'raised a long threatening finger'. So that's how the house elves do magic? Well, IF they could learn to wield wands and say incantations it might be even better.

[JofpGallagher]

Thanks for the reminder about what happened in the book. So apparently Dobby's finger is powerful :lol: since Malfoy, a consummated Death Eater retreated.

[Euthrel]

I can´t understand really..
I wonder how the houseelf´s become "slaves". I mean.. They are REALLY powerfull without a wand.. And they master the wands as well... Can´t really understand..

Maybe they have a great weakness of some kind..

[jimmy06]

I think that House-elves will become the main ally for the minsitry in the fight against voldemort. They're obviously very powerful, and they can do things that even wizards can't do-like disappear on Hogwarts grounds-stuff like that

[Noodlez]

I dont necsisarrily (sp?) think they are more powerfuill but since they dont need a wand when doing spells they can be dangerous. When dobby levitated the cake(?) and made it crash somehow he must have converted his magic so the ministry found it under harrys magic. Strange.

[DWeasley]

They are very powerful, but I think it's just because they are different creatures. They just don't happen to need a wand to weild magic. Maybe it just flows through them better. i think we will find out more about them later.

[Rhyno81]

they are probably more powerful than wizards, they probably enslave them out of fear. thats also probably why they are not allowed to weild wands

[Fashizzle]

I think that the house elves don't really know how powerful they really are. And they have always been slaves so it is just a kind of tradition with them.

[Rain]

I don't know if anyone noticed that People with long, thin fingers are better at magic than the others, like Dumbledore, Voldermont, house-elves etc..., especially comlex magic.
Dobby's and other house-elves' magic is better than wizard's magic. I think it is more complex and powerful too. But by nature House-elves are non-violent until someone makes them really angry. They love to work hard, so they don't mind being enslaved. Also, it could be that they don't want to be free. Also, I think that House-elves know that they are more powerful than the wizards and they simply don't want wizards to manipulate them or use them in their fights, Like voldermont will use dementors and giants. So, they simply choose to be enslaved doing something they love than getting used by other people and doing something they hate. :eyebrows:

[Gred and Feorge]

I can't remember, but in book 4 didn't Dumbledore support what Hermoinie (sp?) was doing with SPEW.

I thought mabey Dumbledore knows how powerful house elfs are and wants to free them, mabey to fight Voldy?

Maybey I'm wrong?:sigh: I don't know.


Play nice Draco.poke:

[Kaivey]

I don't know if this is the thread to discuss the ethics behind house-elf enslavement and SPEW, but, I find the topic really important on my agenda. Here goes:

People are saying that Hermione's got it right, that the House-elves need freedom, that putting out clothes was the noble thing to do. This really takes choice, something you get at birth, away from the house-elves, truly doing the same thing as keeping clothes away from them. Hermione, while far better in ethics than those who refuse to pay Dobby for his work when he asks, is just the other end of the spectrum. Hermione's goal to get a representative in the Control of Magical Creatures beareu will be achieved by her, but people like Dumbledore, Arthur Weasley, and Hagrid (backed most importantly by everday people like Ron) will be the ones to set the House-Elf/Wizard Elitists condition straight. Ron appreciates the House-elves, and, like the older representatives of his views, (his father, his brothers, exc) he shows he does, while not abusing them OR forcing freedom on them. The "in-betweeners" stand against Wizard Elitists such as the Malfoys, but let the Elves see everything, and make their own decisions. The idea that the elves are corrupted and brainwashed is likely true, but only because of family history and their own personal honor within their society. Hermione's views will get a few elves to see human terms, and these elves will likely still refuse wages and clothes, providing service for free, while obviously knowing of what they could have, and deserve, if they wished to have them.

And Tane, your idea about a twist on the house-elf brainwashing is also likely, I believe it to be true, it explains why House-Elves don't do magic much though, as earlier posters have said, they have the power..

[Too Old]

Elves are inhierantly magical creatures and posses magic. House elves are elves and posses magic. Wizards and witches can not apparat or disapparat inside Hogwarts and I have never heard of a someone apparatting anything but themselves and what they were carrying. House elves apparat the meals from the kitchen to the great hall and then disapparat the plates back to the kitchen. Therefore house elf magic is quite different from wizard magic. At the end of CoS Dobbie hits Lucius with an elvish spell that knocks him on his butt and Lucius does not retalliate. Therefore house elf magic can probably be considered powerful.

If the Potters had a house elf (and they probably did) it may have been killed out of hand and (considering the view of house elves) thought too insignificant to mention.

House elves can not act against their house but there seems to be no requirement to act for their house (master). (Remember; Creecher was not acting against his house (master) once Sirius told him to leave but was doing his best to do what he thought his mistress would have wanted.) There has been no mention of house elves acting for or against Voldemort in the past and in OotP Dumbledore does not mention enlisting their aid.

In OotP Dobbie helps Harry. Creecher helps Voldemort. Previously there was no indication of the house elves helping either side. Is this going to continue to change? Are the house elves going to start taking a more active part in the fight?

[SquibOnline]

They probably had the same magic of wizards but forgot it

[filius]

They probably had the same magic of wizards but forgot it
No, they don't. Dobby said that House Elves have a different brand of magic from wizards. For example, Dobby was able to disapparate from the Hospital Wing. But Hogwarts is protected by an anti-apparating/disapparating charm. Wizards can't apparate, but, as Dobby has showed us, House Elves can.

[LengMui]

i think house elves' power is not actually like apparition. they are totally different from wizards, so i don't think it's exactly the same. it's like the similarities between transfiguration and metamorphmagi (i think thats how to spell it).