Hogwarts Education: is it "well rounded"?

[daniel4hp]

At Hogwarts they study magical equivilants to many muggle subjects--

From the Harry Potter Lexicon
Herbology = Botany/Gardening
Care of Magical Creatures = Zoology/Veterinary Science
Arithmancy = Arithmetic/Mathematics
Potions = Chemistry/Cookery/Pharmacology
Astronomy = (Astro)physics/Mathematics/Geography (of the Heavens)
Charms = Latin/Drama/Kinetics
DADA = Physical Education/Chemistry/Physics
Divination = Mathematics/Psychology/Philosophy/Lunacy
Ancient Runes = History/Logic/Mathematics/Linguistics
Transfiguration = Physics/Biology (bioenergetics)/Physical Education
History of Magic = History/Tolerance (of boredom)
Quidditch = Physical Education/Driving Lessons [US: Driver's Ed]
Muggle Studies = History/Sociology/Technology etc.
But is this complete? The lexicon also says this:

Most of these subjects would include use of English Language in the writing of essays, but there are a few topics that don't seem to be covered much at all: Terrestrial Geography (it's no wonder that no one knows where anything is located), Modern Languages, English Lit, Art, Music and Sex Education spring to mind. Overall, the curriculum seems very science-heavy and could do with an injection from the creative arts. For example, I'd love to see the Sorting Hat coaching the Hogwarts' School Choir – that would have so much comic potential.
So, do you think that the Hogwarts Education is well rounded? How do you think it could be improved?

[JenBluffheid]

Well, the ghosts are the school choir. Sort of ...

I think the education system's fine. I'm thinking that they learned the rest before Hogwarts. Maths, English, etc.

I think there was a topic about this somewhere. Can't remember where ...

[Cat]

Why on Earth should they be compared to those things? They're leraning magic, not botany and chemistry. For learning spells and potions I imagine it's a very good school!

Keep in mind they wouldn't need those things as much as Muggles. It's a speciality school. The key skills (English, math...) are all covered within the lessons.

[Kneazle]

I agree with Cat. They learn what they need to know for their special circumstances. Their essentials are covered within the lessons and are developed as they grow. . . it is a well-rounded education. For wizards. They don't need to be trained in the same things that muggles do. :)

This thread will do well in the Great Hall.

[Manyasha]

I don't really think students study magical equivilants to muggle subjects. The education is "well rounded" for wizards, after all.

[dorcasderr]

I would still like to see the arts-visual arts, music, and let's not forget drama, taught. I think there must be room for creativity in the magical world.

[Knight]

The subjects seem to be a good base of magical topics. However the one thing I don't think they get any of is cognative reasoning (problem solving). It seems like most of their work is a lot of memorization and regurgitation. It's possible that they could get some in Arithmancy and maybe Astronomy. But in transfiguration, care of magical creatures, potions, and the rest it doesn't seem like they coulf figure anything out without it being written in a book. Perhaps this is why Wizard society seems so stagnant.

[Dobby and Winky]

To me, it does seem to be a bit lacking, but they seem to be doing fine. They don't need to know advanced Calculus, etc. Maybe when they get to 6th and 7th year, they can take more specialized classes that relate to what they're going into. For example, maybe Rita Skeeter took a journalism class and maybe Percy took a politics class.

But if you're talking in the sense of the writing, they take all weird classes instead of standard classes because what fun would it be to read about Harry in algebra class. Boring. Repelling magical creatures is much more interesting.

[Sinistra]

Actually foreign languages would be useful. The students from Beauxbatons and Durmstrang speak different native languages.Crouch Sr. was noted for his ability to speak over 200 languages.

And what about wizarding law and policics, wizarding civics, if you will?

Although there may be other higher education schools which are devoted to various specalties. Though it doesn't sound so. You graduate Hogwarts and go right into your chosen career. That depends upon how many OWLs you get. So you start at whatever job at the very bottom, and get "on the job" training. It sounds like a mixture of regular puboic schooling and an apprentice system.

[Fleur]

I think that for what they use in their everyday lives, Hogwarts is very well rounded. The only thing I wonder is that their essay skills must grow with time. (Although I am not sure if Snape or Binns would grade grammar and spelling, you would think so) Once you graduate, you can probably use magical methods of writing articles-Skeeter used a Quick Notes Quill.

[daniel4hp]

I think the paragraph I orginally quoted has a point: it is a very science-heavy education. I think that to be well rounded students really should have some creative classes, but yes, for daily use, its pretty good.

Such items as geography and foreign languages could be useful... and what about the students who like to sing, or enjoy art?

[Cat]

Originally posted by daniel4hp
it is a very science-heavy education.

Er.......

Since when was the study of magic scientific? :lol:

They're not training to be a cold and logical race with all that wand-waving and that's for sure.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Music (for taming Fluffy, et al)
Dancing
Apparation
Foreign Languages
Wizard Law and Justice
Religious Studies :D
Physiology (esp. for those going into wizard medicine)

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

[daniel4hp]

It has always been my belief that magic is basically science prooved wrong... much of what is now considered "magic" (such as alchemy) was once thought of as the latest scientific experiments. They were prooved not to work and thus we now call it magic. However, for all they knew, it might be chemically possible to alter the composition of lead and thus transform it into gold. But now we know that isn't possible, so its called magic.

Anyway, I think the Hogwarts education is science-heavy because Magic is the wizard's science. They don't have physics or chemestry--its magic. Thus many of the magical studies are really science for wizards.

I agree with Evelyns list very much. Especially the Religous Studies :D

[Cho Chang]

I have to agree .. we can't compare scientific courses with magical courses!!

How about courses about MENDING bones or HEALING yourself?? Or is that cover in potions already???

[Tinkie]

To be honest i think that Hogwarts provides the students with a solid, good education. it gives them most of the things that they will need. I mean it is education foe wizards. However I also agree with Evelyn, what the education lacks is subjects that have to do with the arts and aesthetics as well as subjects like law and politics. For example how did Percy cope with his job? Did he have enough knowledge apart from the "technical" or practical stuff?

[dumbleedore]

All things that would be learnt in a muggle school would be picked up along the way. And because Hogwarts has muggle borns and pure bloods interacting freely, things that wizard kids don't know from primary school they could pick up from muggle kids and visa versa.

Besides, a primary school education (or a high school education for that matter) doesn't really do much. I missed most of primary school because I was ill a bit and I was at the top of almost every class in high school, until I left half way through year 10. I don't have my HSC or my SC, yet I am working full time and doing much better than my poor friends who are stuck at school.

[Cat]

Originally posted by daniel4hp

Anyway, I think the Hogwarts education is science-heavy because Magic is the wizard's science. They don't have physics or chemestry--its magic.

They DO have physic and chemistry. They just don't study them. They don't abide by the rules of them, either. It's not science for wizards because science is the study of Muggles. It is MAGIC for wizards. Magic. The two could be twinned for all I know but they're still individual bodies.

No scientist would call call magic a branch of his study, not actual provable magic if it ever exists.

As for art... well... you spend your days looking at the colours change in a cauldron, watching people in flight and disobeying physics to cause one thing to change into another. You might not get much chance to paint but you're getting a hell of a lot of inspiration.

[daniel4hp]

A scientist wouldn't call magic a branch of his study, but 500 years, ago, an alchemist would consider hiself a scientist...


There can't be much in the way of physics in the magical world because they disobey the rules of physics all the time. They do not study chemestry, because with magic they don't need chemestry. Instead they study potions and charms. Wizards have no need for much of science because they can use magic to over ride it. Thus magic is the wizard's substitute for science. At Hogwarts they study how to defy science (Charms, Transfiguration), how to do the "science" that they do have (Potions, Care of Magical Creatures), how to protect themselves (DADA), the origins of magic and how it came to its present state (History of Magic, Ancient Runes), as well as misc. magical subjects (Divination, Arithmancy). They also study the science that they are defying (Muggle Studies) and the night sky (Astronomy). The only subject that doesn't relate to History, Science, or Math (viewd from a magical perspective) is Divination. Obviously everything they study will be viewed from a magical perspective, but consider that they don't study how to do artwork (magically), they never sing or perform (using magic) and never learn about other cultures (foreign languages, religion, ect.). Almost all of their couses are geared towards magical science and very little is left for the creative instinct in the students.

[raeredeyes]

i do belive, for the lifestyles that they lead, Hogwarts provides a good education.
Lets face it, like they are going to need to know about things that we need to know. Their life style is very different to ours. I dont really think much of a comparison can be made.

[daniel4hp]

They are still humans and have a creative instinct Hogwarts doesn't seem to tap into. There are apparently artists in the wizarding world (moving paintings as well as photos) and wouldn't they get out of shape without a good PE program? Some are probably musically tallented and would like to sing in the school choir--except that there isn't any. We know that there are musical groups in the wizarding world, such as the Wierd Sisters. Wizards would need Social Studies as much as anyone--they certainly need to know about other cultures, religions, and languages as well as different types of people just as much as muggles. While they study History, they appear not to have any geography. I think appropriate clases might be:

1. Magical Art (3-7: elective)
2. Choir (3-7: elective)
3. Physical Education (1-5: required, 6-7: elective)
4. Culture Studies (3-7: elective)
5. Religious Studies (3-7: elective)
6. Foriegn Languages (3-7: elective)
7. Geography (1-2: required, 3-7: elective)
EDIT: 8. Drama (3-7: elective)

[dorcasderr]

I agree Daniel, but, again, you forgot Drama. There needs to be an outlet for that too.

[Alicia_Potter]

Well, maybe in there final years at Hogwarts, sixth and seventh for example, they do have these elective classes. We only know what Harry knows, and Harry is very limited to what goes on in the magical world. However, they do seem slightly off in the creativity department. Maybe they do that at home?

[HogwartsChaplain]

But then you'd think there would be some mention of "summer assignments" in the books. If something like that were suggested, Hermione would be sure to do it over the summer, even if Harry and Ron didn't.

It is possible that it's something for the upperclass students, and that we just haven't heard about it because Harry doesn't know about it yet.

[Alicia_Potter]

Actually, I didn't think that it was a school assignment. I think that it is something that you pursue yourself in the summer.

[daniel4hp]

When wizards live so far apart, it would be hard to persue drama or choir in the summer...

There might be outlets for creative subjects in the sixth and seventh years, however I think that certain things, such as Physical Education, would be appropriate for all ages, and creative classes such as Art, Choir, Drama, ect. should be electives starting in the third year. I can understand if religion, culture, and foriegn languages are saved until later, but these aren't the most creative ones...

It is true that Hogwarts provides a basic magical education, and there is certainly something to be said for that. Hogwarts does prepare wizards for daily life, and probably there are classes for students in the sixth and seventh years who are going into special areas. However, the lack of creative classes might hinder students who have specialites in those areas.

[Alicia_Potter]

Perhaps, but no school can be perfect. Actually, quidditch can count as phyical education. And in the summer, you don't have to be in a group to learn instruments or sing.

[daniel4hp]

You can't perform dramatic productions by yourself...

There are only 28 people--about 10% of the students--who play Quidditch--it can hardly be called a complete PE program...

[Morgoth]

There is a science behind studying magical arts. It's probably a necessity for youngsters to learn the "science" before they go out and do the practical work, which is why they are forbidden from using magic underage. It needs to be developed and fine tuned. Choir - Physical Education - Culture Studies - Religious Studies - Foriegn Languages - Geography. These are not wholly essential to understanding the points of being a wizard or witch. Hogwarts is a practical application school, which focuses very much on the development of skills and abilities of it's students. A History of Magic and Muggle Studies would cover cultural, religious & geographical aspects of education whilst not necissarily in an in depth way. As most pupils are either of half-blood or even new-blood (Mudblood for those who want to know), they would come into the magical world with a good history from their parents and possibly muggle schools on how the world works.

With regards to religious studies, you have to assume that Wizards & Witches have a much more detailed knowledge of what is true and what isn't. They would have actual records of Jesus, Abraham, Mohammed etc, so in terms of teaching about the practises of each faith, they would probably teach the students about the muggle way of faith and it's applicability to the magic folk. However, they would know themselves what is true and what isn't, as it would be documented I'm sure.

I view Hogwarts very much as a Science Orientated College, with less curiculum for cultural classes.

[HogwartsChaplain]

Good post, Matt. I would like to add that an upper-level course in ethics would be a good idea. This would be quite separate from religion, though some people think the two are linked. For religious people, they are linked; but non-religious people also need to consider the ethical implications of their actions.

Given the kinds of effects magic can have, I think an opportunity to explore ethics should be part of the curriculum. Not everyone would agree about what is ethical (Death Eaters' kids versus families such as the Weasleys), but it would help all sides to understand what the ramifications of spells and potions are, so they can make informed decisions.

[daniel4hp]

Yes, I think that it would be good to teach ethics. I suppose it would be what Dumbledore condsiders eithical?

[Eva]

I think that art, music, drama, and the like are probably taken as clubs, after classes. We just haven't heard about them because Harry, Hermione, and Ron aren't very artsy. I think there are clubs, because when the three signed up for dueling club, it seemed like there were many more and that this was just the first that they'd signed up for. Although I can't see anyone signing up for Sex Ed!:p

[HogwartsChaplain]

Originally posted by daniel4hp
Yes, I think that it would be good to teach ethics. I suppose it would be what Dumbledore considers ethical?
In my experience, sometimes ethics might reflect the ideas of the teacher or the school, but often ethics are taught on a more theoretical basis-- not telling someone what the answer is, but teaching them to think through the possibilities to arrive at what the possible answers might be.

I can't say that an ethics class would change the ethical values of Death Eaters' kids, for instance. But it might help them to understand the other side. The same would be true of students who would be in the "anti-Voldemort" camp.

For example, in my seminary ethics class (training to be a pastor), when we looked at birth control, we looked at all sides-- pro, con, and laisse faire. It was an interesting discussion, led by a professor who was so good at playing devil's advocate that often we didn't know what his own opinion was.

[thanksssamigo]

Perhaps they have summer school or summer camps to do art, drama, music etc. Or they could go to special schools over the summer or after hogwarts to do those kind of things. It seems like Dean Thomas is good at art. Maybe he gets private lessons or goes to a summer camp to do art.

[Puffskein]

Hogwarts education is about learning to direct magic energy for useful purposes and deal with other people's magic energy. That's a pretty big task, and the subjects cover various aspects of that learning. I suppose artistic leanings can be expressed using magic, but that's not as critical as things like charms. We don't know that much about what goes on at weekends, maybe there are clubs then.

[Astaldo]

Their arent any stated in the book, but that dosent mean their isent any, but they dont come their to work out (they should have a work out room their) they come their to study magic :)

[Caenne]

I've wondered about that too. I can see where if they were just going to be wizards and maybe focus on one of the classes (creatures, like Charlie Weasley, for instance), it would be a well-rounded education, but what about the ones who go into business, like the shopowners of Diagon Alley? Where do they learn the necessities of that, such as accounting? *pictures the Weasley twins taking their joke shop's record books to the second cousin accountant for balancing* Or political science? Especially with Voldemort coming back and the necessity to cooperate, that subject would be extremely important. I realize that since Hogwarts admits students at age 11, they would have had basic math and English and sciences and social studies before then, like in any elementary school. (Which raises another point, where do wizard children go to elementary/primary/grammar/whatever-they-call-it-where-you-are school? Do they have a special one, or do they attend with Muggle children? I kind of doubt that, but you never know) But, think of the special effects they could have if they taught theatre! :D

[daniel4hp]

Business was definatly a good thing to bring up, Caenne. This is a good example of something that would be practical but not taught at Hogwarts. JK has stated that there is no magical university, so it seems what they get at Hogwarts is just about all. The education is okay, but practical courses in business, politics, ect. could be useful.

[Astaldo]

Mabey they get an aprentice-ship like mechanics.

[daniel4hp]

For certain jobs it seems clear that they do get apprenticships, but after spending seven years at school, would you want to become an apprentice to learn how to do accounting? This seems more like something that should be taught in school...

[Perdita]

What i find interesting is the assumption that all wizards and witches want to persue careers in the magical world after they graduate.

What about those who want to be re-integrated into the mainstream muggle society? They can't go to Oxford or any other muggle university because they don't have a high school diploma. None of them have taken courses at Hogwarts that would prepare them for a university education in science or humanities. What happens to those individuals?

Are they then forced to pursue careers in the magical field? That's kind of limiting.

Muggle Studies don't count because that sounds more like a social science or anthropology course, based on Hermione's descriptions of it.

[daniel4hp]

Well, probably not many witches and wizards want to go back into muggle society. After all, the magical world is pretty complete--it has its own economy and all. I'm sure they could go into business and probably even law in the magical world, considering that wizards don't have many ties with muggles and these services would be needed. The real problem is, as I see it, how do witches or wizards who want to become owners of a magic business (such as a publishing house) learn how to manage businesses?

[Filia Tenebrarum]

If the students from Beaubatons and Durmstrang all speak fluent, if accented, English why do the Hogwarts students have no lessons in modern languages at all? I can't see Madame Maxime or Prof. Karkarof teaching their students English if they knew that Dumbledore wasn't bothering to teach his French and Bulgarian. So where do the Beaubatons and Durmstrang students learn it from?
As far as we know, the Hogwarts students know only the French they learned in primary school. I would not like to try to talk to anyone with the French I learned in primary school.
In fact, there seems to be a huge gap in the Hogwarts sylibus where languages are concerned. What about other magical languages like Mermish and Gobbledegook? What about latin? Almost all the spells are in doggy latin so surely knowing some real latin would help. The closest thing we have is the Study of Ancient Runes and that's just an optional course. The strangest thing is that JK is a linguist, so why is she neglecting to teach her students languages?

[Thayet]

Perhaps they have an option to learn later on? It could just be an error on JKR's part, or perhaps they really dont learn languages, and concentrate purely on the entire magical aspect. Although it seemingly appears to be a mistake from JKR's point of view, an aspect she didn't consider. What do you guys think about this?

Have a look here (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?s=&threadid=775) for a bit of discussion on it too. :)

[Alastor D]

I had from the very beginning the feeling that the subjects mentioned were not enough to fill a normal working week. There may be others, which are never mentioned just because they are not needed in the plot.

And I believe in many countries English is considered the most important foreign language. For obvious reasons. You can manage with 'bad English' almost everywhere. Not so with bad French or bad German.

[Trinity]

Typical attitude I think of most people that knowing English is essential- it is the universal language, but knowing other languages are optional extras.

[lanifiel]

Mayhaps a it was magically gifted to them? I'm sure there must be some kind of spell like that?

[tabby]

It doesn't seem so odd to me.

It might be a bit "full of ourselves" but english is the main language. It's simply not as necessary to know other language if you speak english. Helpful, but not as helpful.

I didn't learn another language at school.

[Eva Gaade]

Originally posted by Alastor D (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=196390#post196390))
I had from the very beginning the feeling that the subjects mentioned were not enough to fill a normal working week. There may be others, which are never mentioned just because they are not needed in the plot.

And I believe in many countries English is considered the most important foreign language. For obvious reasons. You can manage with 'bad English' almost everywhere. Not so with bad French or bad German.


I totaly agree. its just unimportant subjekcts. and therefor not mentioned. and who would like to here about language, when thay can here about herbology and tansfiguratins instead.:elaugh:

In our (Denmark) schoolsystemwe have englesh from the second grade. and german from the seventh grade. and after that we can choos if we would like to have another language afterwards. but englich is mendatory.:)

[Weatherby]

I'm guessing it's a class they can pick such as muggle studies?
They can always learn it later on.
It's probably not important to the story thus far so we don't get the information.

[Camo]

Maybe there are extra classes because isn't there a translator working for the ministry in GoF with the Bulgarian minister of magic. It is weird how they don't learn latin though.

[Sirius Black]

That's a good question. But, naturally, english is known to be the second or first international language to almost everyone in the world. SO probably, they don't have to bother.

[Perdita]

I agree that this is a mistake on Rowling's part. It is a case of Anglo-centricism, and yet it is a justified one, in my opinion. Unless the students are to travel to foreign countries in the future books, otherwise, they won't have to learn foreign languages.

Like others have said, English is a language that is spoken in so many different countries around the world. I would not be surprised if wizarding schools from countries whose official language is not English, to have an English curriculum. French and Bulgarian, on the other hand, are not spoken in every corner of the world, and so they might not be compulsory courses, or any course at all, for the students at Hogwarts.

I also have to say to those who think that English is the only language that they'll ever need to learn, I suggest you reconsider that.

Try going to Japan, or China, or Russia, or the Czech Republic and speak only English to the people there. I doubt that life would be easy for a traveller who has such limited language skills. You might find that the people from these places who know how to speak English would refuse to speak English to you simply because you refused to learn to speak their language, on their soil.

To some people, learning other languages is supplementary if they always stay at home where other foreign languages skills are not needed. However, to say that to travel to other places and not have to learn the languages of those countries is not only an arrogant attitude, but also a very disrespectful one.

To return to the original topic, these foreign language course might be taught at H, but we haven't seen the need for them to be mentioned, yet.

I hope that it does come up in the books because I would really love to see an adventure take place outside of the UK.

[Sirius Black]

I currently live in Hong Kong(in China). But I'm not chinese, but I can still survive with english. Though for employment, the language is a must.

But you're right, they should know how to speak other languages. I bet Harry and Hermione and all muggle-borns learnt a second lanuguage in muggle-school, possibly french or spanish. I think JKr never thought of this one. She probably missed it out.

[Dedalus]

Originally posted by Sirius Black (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=196930#post196930))
I bet Harry and Hermione and all muggle-borns learnt a second lanuguage in muggle-school, possibly french or spanish.

I don't think so, because most English Primary schools don't teach Languages.

Which brings me to a thought ... in France you learn English at a younger age than you learn French, in England. So it's possible that the students from Beauxbatons (and perhaps Durmstrang too) who went to a muggle school before attended their own magic school, learnt English there.

They don't learn English at Beauxbatons (again, don't know about Durmstrang), because, remember, at the Qudditch World Cup some Beauxbatons students approached Harry, Ron and Hermione and backed away when they didn't understand each other. Otherwise the girl might have given a hasty apology in English, but she didn't.

[GinWeasRox]

Instead of being a mistake on JKR's part, having everyone speak English might simply be a convenience in order to get to more important parts of the story.

There was a science fiction TV show in the 1960s, "The Time Tunnel". In one episode two twentieth century Americans went to 14th century China and met emperor Kubla Khan (a Mongolian). He spoke fluent English with an American accent. In the Star Trek universe everyone, including all but a handful of aliens, speaks English. It wasn't due to their "universal translators", a pocket sized device, either (despite an episode where four Ferengi arrived in Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947, all of them with broken translators so they were unable to communicate with Earth people). In the first series Uhura (native language Swahili) was memory-blasted and had to be re-taught how to speak English.

[periwinkle-blue]

I agree with GinWeasRox, that JK just tuned out other foreign language in Hogwarts' education system out of conveniences. But there's still another three years left to go for Harry and his batch, and JK could probably sneak in another extra subject such as language as one of the elective subjects for fifth, sixth or seventh year students.

What if the origin of all magical menageries and abilities started from England/UK? Which might explain that most spells are in latin, and probably other magical schools in other part of the world have English as one of their subject, probably in relation with Magical History studies.

[Cat]

Originally posted by periwinkle-blue (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=197028#post197028))
But there's still another three years left to go for Harry and his batch, and JK could probably sneak in another extra subject such as language as one of the elective subjects for fifth, sixth or seventh year students.


I doubt it. They're studying magic, not language. I mean, they use numbers but have no maths lesson. Clearly these things are expected to be learned at your own leisure.

How do we know the others schools teach languages? I mean, if you were going to stay in a foreign school, you'd cram up on the language before you journeyed, wouldn't you? It's good manners. You would do it in preparation for leaving.

[periwinkle-blue]

Originally posted by Cat (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=197038#post197038))
I doubt it. They're studying magic, not language. I mean, they use numbers but have no maths lesson. Clearly these things are expected to be learned at your own leisure.


Yes, I can see the rasional behind what you've said, Cat. But how do we know that they don't have basic math in one of the first year subjects? Kind of like the flying lesson with Madam Hooch in first year, they aren't mentioned again in the book, least of all whether Hermione can fly or not. I think some of those basics stuffs are included or reminded in early chapters of some subjects, but since other stuffs is more relevent to the story's plots, and maybe perhap's since the story unfolded mainly in Harry's point of view, then those tiny tidbits might be neglected to be mentioned.

Plus, I did say that the foreign language as a possible elective subject :)

[Cat]

Divination, arithmancy, rune reading... I really doubt Hogwarts teaches French.

[periwinkle-blue]

Originally posted by Cat (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=197129#post197129))
Divination, arithmancy, rune reading... I really doubt Hogwarts teaches French.


:lol: You're probably right, Cat. I can't imagine a French teacher in Hogwarts, but perhaps in future books, Fleur Delacour would fill that position.

And please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't divination, arithmancy and rune reading introduced in third year at Hogwarts? If it's so, then there's two years to re-learn some basic stuffs like math.

[Cat]

You probably wouldn't be allowed to take new courses before you took your OWLS (I just love those test names). But the NEWTS might bring new courses - I can better imagine them being advanced magic, though.

[Scotlandking85]

I agree. Foreign language is either for upper year students; optional classes that have not been taken by Harry, Ron, or Hermione; do not exist; or are taken but not viewed, like the astronomy class. Why haven't we been present in that class?

[Virtuousdream]

Because it appears to not be relevent to the books yet.

I also agree, the wizarding world must have the approach that English is the most popular language to speak, which is why out english government are too lazy to enforce a foreign language at primary school. They are even making a foreign language optional at GCSE, which I think is wrong, because at least if it is compulsary, we do learn the basics and more (when I was in Germany I could actually listen and understand after a few days, yet not speak it to that standard :p).

It is true because of this the English are lazy, and maybe the M.O.M look at it that way. Of course, if Jk later elaborated on this point, I would take her word, because blatently she is God of this world :p.

[Perdita]

Originally posted by Sirius Black (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=196930#post196930))
I currently live in Hong Kong(in China). But I'm not chinese, but I can still survive with english. Though for employment, the language is a must...

I am not trying to drag this thread off-topic, rather i want to put some context into Sirius Black's comment.

For those who are not familiar with Hong Kong history, this "territory" was a British colony for over 100 years. Colonial rule in HK did not end until 1997. So the fact that many people there have a working knowlege of English is to be expected.

[GodricSlytherin]

I would think, that since those schools are foreing. they need to know english in order to communicate with the people there. Since I don't think people should have to take language classes, I don't see the reason why, but, I guess, noone has thought or wanted to take language at Hogwarts, what would they use it for?

[daniel4hp]

I'm merging this with another thread...

[Sirius Black]

Originally posted by Perdita (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=197330#post197330))
I am not trying to drag this thread off-topic, rather i want to put some context into Sirius Black's comment.

For those who are not familiar with Hong Kong history, this "territory" was a British colony for over 100 years. Colonial rule in HK did not end until 1997. So the fact that many people there have a working knowlege of English is to be expected.


Of course, of course. I know the history of Hong Kong, plus, it's an international port. But nowadays, Mandarin is becoming a must. I think I'll have to leave soon. Anways, back on topic.

Like I've said before, I think JKr missed out on this one.

[keskin_snape]

I was thinking of starting a topic that was pretty much the same as this one so I'm glad I searched for it.

In terms of learning languages... they are wizards and I'm sure there is a spell of some sort for them to learn an entire language quickly.

Now in terms of the educational subjects...

If I personally were to go to Hogwarts... I would want to do things like Art, Music and English.
Even if I did finish off the seven years and became a fully-qualified Witch... I'd probably go take highschool again so I could get my school certificate and get into a fine arts course at Uni.
Not to mention..... living in the muggle world, we have the Internet and movies!!
Maybe Hogwarts is just so old [1000 years isn't it?] it takes a while to change pace... but in another part of the world, there might be a more modern educational system in their wizarding schools.
Hogwarts seems to be still stuck in the middleages, as does the rest of the wizarding world.

[Magi]

Hmmm, I think a lot of the discussions are confusing Muggle culture with that of magical culture. I think that in magical culture, things like fine arts and music are generally not held as important as they are in muggle culture, and therefore are not included as part of the formal education system. Even in the muggle world, art, drama, and music, are generally not considered to be essential to education at primary and secondary levels -- art, drama, and music, are mostly accomodated as extra-curricula activities.

Hogwarts has only five years to teach students all aspects of day-to-day magic and magical life, and two years to teach advanced specialisations. That's a very short amount of time. The magical world is as complete a culture and society as the muggle world. It would be extremely difficult to fulfill essential muggle education within 7 years, and just as difficult for magical education. Non-essential subject matter are bound to get the chop.

As for physical education, just keep in mind that in the magical world, kids don't spend too much time in front of computers or television. It seems that the magical world is far more outdoors-based than the muggle world. There really isn't a need for formal physical education, when kids spend a good portion of their spare time in physical leisure activites. For physical education as part of the formal curriculum, flying lessons are certainly physical, and DADA lessons ought to involve some development of physical skills.

[SSdraken]

it seems to me that Hogwarts teaches all their students magical stuff. However, nowhere does it teach people how to write properly (English), add, subtract etc. (practical maths) etc. A muggle can be a lot smarter in many ways than a wizard. A muggle at 18 might know all about atoms and photosynthesis and other stuff, whilst a wizard won't know anything about our world.

Another thing is that whilst Muggle technology is always advancing, as far as I know there haven't been any advancing in Wizard tech. You can't invent spells as far as I know, so in this way, Muggles will eventually become better than wizards. One day Wizards may even be in awe of Muggle gadgets. Sorry, did a bit on an Arthur Weasley there :D

" I collect plugs "
- Arthur Weasley

[Magi]

You can't invent spells as far as I knowOf course spells can be invented. There has been quite a number of times where spell invention has been mentioned in the books and other cannon sources. Examples of these include the Entrail-Expelling Curse (OotP), Cheering Charm (May wizard of the month, in Rowling's official website). Magical items are invented too, otherwise they wouldn't exist in the first place, just as spells wouldn't exist unless they were invented.

Keep in mind also, that while wizards don't know much about physical sciences, muggles have no idea about magic.

As I said in my previous post, let's remember that magical culture is as independent and complete as muggle culture. They are just as sophisticated and self-contained as ours.

[Dottie]

Keep in mind also, that while wizards don't know much about physical sciences, muggles have no idea about magic.



But that's not a Muggles choice. Meanwhile, the information is readily available to any witch or wizard who wishes to learn about these things.

However, I do think its obvious the knowledge of a plant's photosynthesis isn't vital to transfiguring it or what have you, otherwise it probably would have been discussed. ;)

[Magi]

Meanwhile, the information is readily available to any witch or wizard who wishes to learn about these things.Why should they learn them?

In the HP Universe, we would be muggles, so obviously we think that our ways and methods are worth knowing about. But wizards probably don't think that way. They have their own matters to learn and worry about, without the added load of studying about a culture and a science that they are very unlikely to be heavily involved with.

[Dottie]

Why should they learn them?

In the HP Universe, we would be muggles, so obviously we think that our ways and methods are worth knowing about. But wizards may not think that way.

I never implied that they should, in fact in the part you left out I said it obviously isn't vital. :)

[Magi]

My apologies. The first sentence of your post ("But it's not a muggle choice") sounded like a refutation of my previous post, and I mistakenly assumed that you were implying that wizards somehow have an obligation to study muggle science and culture, just because the resources are available to them.

[Dottie]

My apologies. The first sentence of your post ("But it's not a muggle choice") sounded like a refutation of my previous post, and I mistakenly assumed that you were implying that wizards somehow have an obligation to study muggle science and culture, just because the resources are available to them.

Oh! Sorry I wasn't more clear. :blush: You'll have to excuse my tendencies to refute someone's point and then refute my own refutation in the very same post. :lol:

[PhoenixUK]

it seems to me that Hogwarts teaches all their students magical stuff. However, nowhere does it teach people how to write properly (English), add, subtract etc. (practical maths) etc. A muggle can be a lot smarter in many ways than a wizard. A muggle at 18 might know all about atoms and photosynthesis and other stuff, whilst a wizard won't know anything about our world. We don't know what education wizards receive pre-Hogwarts, though.

Hogwarts students start when they're 11 years old (secondary school age). In the UK, children will have already been at school for 7 years by this point learning stuff like maths, grammar and spelling. I think we can safely assume that wizard children don't attend Muggle primary schools, because Ron seems amazed by stuff like Dean Thomas' unmoving West Ham poster, which he'd be used to if he went to Muggle schools, but it's possible that there are wizard schools where pupils learn basics before going to Hogwarts. Or, maybe they're homeschooled. Either way, everyone at Hogwarts seems literate and reasonably intelligent, so they must learn it somewhere.

Then, magical abilities are taught at Hogwarts. Yes, they don't learn about atoms/photosynthesis/whatever, but then, they don't need to. The jobs available in the wizard world require magical talents rather than an in-depth knowledge of science. Hence, wizards need magical qualifications.

[Dottie]

Here is a handy little quote from JKR's 2000 Scholastic interview:

Q: Do wizards and witches have to go Muggle school before they go to Hogwarts?

A: No, they don't have to.

[Magi]

Here's another handy one from World Book Day webchat, 2004 (link (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html)):

kai: Where do wizarding children go to school before Hogwarts?
JK Rowling replies -> They can either go to a Muggle primary school or they are educated at home. The Weasleys were taught by Mrs. Weasley.

So, it's either a Muggle primary school, or homeschooling. :)

[Credo Buffa]

Why on Earth should they be compared to those things? They're leraning magic, not botany and chemistry. For learning spells and potions I imagine it's a very good school!

Keep in mind they wouldn't need those things as much as Muggles. It's a speciality school. The key skills (English, math...) are all covered within the lessons.

ARE THEY learning what they need to know, though? They're seeing the world through a very specific lense, which I think should in all educational cases be discouraged as much as possible. For example: I'm a musician, and from my birth I'm going to study everything I need to know to be a musician (music history, theory, performance study, conducting, composition, etc), and ONLY those things that will make me a good musician. . . But by the time I graduate, I'm not going to know why the sky is blue or who Shakespeare is or how it is that I'm able to walk and talk and breathe without thinking about it. And why should it matter that I know those things? Because I'm HUMAN and it's my RESPONSIBILITY as a citizen of the world and as a naturally curious creature to know things like this.

I'm really amazed when see how generally ignorant wizards are of the muggle world. I mean, some people have said that muggles are ignorant of the wizarding world, but not by CHOICE. Wizards on the whole seem to have chosen to disregard all things pertaining to muggles, even if that means ignoring the inherently human elements of teaching their children about things that are the backbone of muggle education, but really are the backbone of what is is to live on this planet at this time in history. Why shouldn't wizards be able to draw in three dimensions or appreciate Shakespeare? Why shouldn't wizards know who Hitler was? Why shouldn't wizards have some understanding of chemical reactions (and I'm NOT talking about potions class)?

It even seems that Mr. Weasley, whose profession depends on his understanding of muggles, has for the most part a very limited understanding of them. It seems that his only concern, as well as that of pretty much every other wizard when being out in the muggle world, is being able to blend in. They look at the surface of what a muggle looks like, try to duplicate that, and then leave it at that. Talk about race relations like that in the modern, MUGGLE and you'll get into trouble.

Now, this is a horrible example, but one that is very illustrative nonetheless. If muggles suddenly knew of the existence of wizards, the first thing that would happen would be that muggle scientists would go out and find wizards, hook up electrodes to their heads, and try to figure out WHY these people have magic powers that the rest of us don't, how to get rid fo it, and how to duplicate it. Wizards have known about the existence of muggles from the very beginning. . . does any of them even have a desire to know why they're different? If they did have the desire, would they have the understanding of the function of the human brain to even begin to come up with an answer?

I guess what it all comes down to is that wizards seem completely content to forget that they live in a world in which they are not the only people. They content themselves with knowing that if they mess up, they can always modify someones memory. Instead of going out and trying to understand the world they live in, expressing curiosity that has nothing to do with race and everything to do with natural humanity, and being citizens of not just a hidden community but THE WORLD, they hide within their ability to let magic do everything for them. When I really sit down and think about it like this, it all seems like the worst of separatist elitism that we still see in our own world.

[Marisa]

I actually think that their education is fine... they learn everything that they really need to know in the magical world... plus Harry and Hermione and probably some others have gone to a regular school before they found out that they were witch or wizard...

[Magi]

As I've said before, magical education at Hogwarts seem quite rounded.

I also think it is strange to compare the muggle world with the magical, and attempt to critque the educational system at Hogwarts from a muggle point of view. Again, as I said earlier in the thread, muggles and magical people live in two completely different cultures and societies, each with their own unique history and methods.

I'm an engineer by education. I know quite a lot of things like physics, chemistry, and mathematical logics, and naturally curious about what makes our world tick, from a scientific and technological point of view. Like most engineers, I tend to see the wonders of modern technology with a critical eye that most people don't bother with. But I do not fall under the illusion that everything can be explained by science. If we could draw up a large circle with everything that makes up our world written inside, the muggle world will occupy a portion. If the magical world was real, then it too, will occupy a portion. The two portions may overlap, but there will be large areas that are unqiue to each other.

How can science explain something that ISN'T within its realm? How can magic explain something which is beyond its scope? I think here lies the crux of the differences between the magical and muggle worlds in Harry Potter.

I think that even if muggles knew about the magical world in the HP Universe, they would not be able to explain how wizards have power, or how to control it. At the same time, wizards do not understand the nature of physical sciences which drive the muggle world. The two cultures are divided, not because of lack of curiosity, but because neither have the means to understand each other. Muggles do not have magical powers to allow examination of such things, and wizards lack the mental capability to understand complex mathematics which form the foundation of physical sciences.

The wizarding world isn't devoid of curiosity. As muggles wonder about the nature of the brain, so wizards too, are curious. We see this in OotP, in the Brain Room. Muggles wonder about the fabric of the universe, and the possibilities of controlling time, and wizards too, experiment with such things, again as noted in OotP in the Time Room. Throughtout the HP books, we see various examples of everyday witches and wizards being curious about muggle things. In OotP again, we see two members of the Order examining a microwave with their wands. Here we see similarities, yet glaring differences. Muggles try to find solutions by physical science, while magical people try to understand using magic.

The lack of social compatibility between the two races are inevitable. The good thing is at least the wizarding world doesn't try to enslave the muggle world, as muggle western people have done (and tried to do) to the indigenous populations of the world over. How many of us know about the cultural customs of the Mongol nomads? Most of us don't know, because it generally doesn't concern us. Wizards appear to know enough about muggles to blend in, and act like normal muggles, without really understanding more intricate things, such as money; simply because the muggle world doesn't concern them beyond day-to-day life, just as the customs of Mongol nomads generally do not concern us. Or in a better example, just as the cultural customs and financial infrastructure of the mainland Chinese do not concern the everyday American citizen, despite the volume of economic trade between the two countries. Even in matters which do interest us significantly, we take little care. How many of know how to hunt and survive in the wild, or how to deal with floods or forest fires? How many of us even know First Aid?!

I think the way some of us are surprised that the magical world do not pay more attention to the muggle world in the HP Universe, just goes to show what an inflated opinion we have of ourselves. Because we are so accustomed to the way we do things, we fall under the illusion that others should care about us and consider us important, and we are outraged when another society of people don't really give a hoot about us. We are all guilty of this at some stage of our history, and even today. Oh the story of the human being!


PS: On another note, I don't hink Arthur Weasley should be considered an "expert" of muggles. His interest seems to be very hobbyist-like, not the sort of calculated professional interest displayed by real experts. I would be interested to see what the wizards at the Muggle Liason Office are like.

[hermeeownninny]

I think they need to take some muggle subjects. . English is useful, everyone should know how to write. I know they write essays all the time, but can you imagine the level of their writing? For muggle-borns and those educated in muggle schools, they haven't been educated in English since the age of 11- the equivalent to the American 5th grade. That's appalling! As for math goes, elementary level math is really all that's useful. I've taken college-level calculus and since I don't plan on being an engineer, know that it's absolutely useless. .

[Magi]

I know they write essays all the time, but can you imagine the level of their writing?Writing is one of those things that develop naturally after being taught the basics. Essay and report-writing are skills that are developed through experience rather than formal education, IMHO.

[Scarlet Tears]

Magi, your post above was excellent. I agree with all of the points you made.

To expand on your idea about the two different worlds and how some aspects overlap while others don't, I am also inclined to believe that wizards have no use for studies such as foreign languages or advanced mathematics because they are able to use magic in place of technology. As PhoenixUK pointed out, they would have learned the basics during their 11 years prior to wizarding school, which would supply them with enough understanding of reading, writing, math, etc in order to survive in the part of their world that is common among both muggles and wizards. But the real reason that muggles learn these subjects is to advance their world through the use of ideas and technology, since they do not have any magical abilities at their disposal. Wizards, on the other hand, can learn spells for just about anything, so they have no real use for more advanced muggle studies. Also, Hogwarts tends to focus more on practical studies instead of abstract ones, which will allow students to be successful in the wizarding world without having to learn how to write an essay or understand calculus. I am aware that some professions might involve other studies, such as working in politics, but when a wizard decides to go into that profession, I would imagine that they might become an apprentice or even take classes in muggle schools. As for subjects involving artistic and cultural studies, I don't think that the wizarding world puts as much emphasis on those subjects as the muggle world, so it would make little sense to include these classes as part of the curriculum.

I just thought of an interesting point that could add a new perspective to this discussion. In Book 1, when Harry and Hermione are making there way to the Sorcerer's/Philosopher's Stone, they enter the room with the different shaped bottles that Snape had created in order to protect the Stone. In order to make it to the other side, one would have to use logical reasoning to determine which potion would lead you safely through the flames. But Hermione points out that since most wizards, even the greatest ones, do not possess any logic, they would be stuck in the room forever. This would indicate that the wizarding world does disregard many muggle studies in favor of magic ones, but that such knowledge is rarely, if ever, needed.

[grawp66]

Hogwarts does offer Muggle Studies, so you can't say wizards are totally ignorant of Muggles. And Hogwarts can't teach everything - no school can. They teach what is relevent to their lives, magical subjects. These are two entirely different worlds, and it wouldn't make sense if wizards were more involved with the muggles than there own government and people. In school, we learn some things about other countries, but we mostly focus on US history and politics, because that is where we are and what most of us will need most in the future. I'm not saying I don't care about other cultures, or that wizaeds shoul;dn't care about the muggle culture, but, like I said, it makes sense that they focus on magical more than muggle subjects.

If a witch or wizard did want to go into a muggle profession or work in Arthur Weasleys Ministry Deperatment, career training is avalilable for wizards, as we know from book 5 ( Carrer Advice, all those pamphets about training programs). If this wan't true, How did Arthur get his job?

As for the Arts, not even all schools in the muggle world have them in their curriculum. Don't get me wrong - my school does, and the Arts is mainly what I'm best at and like most about school. But again, Hogwarts is a magic school. If young witches and wizards were really interested in the Arts I'm sure they could find some place outside of school to learn them, or do things like draw or write in there free time. In book two, it mention that Ginny write in a diary ( NOT Riddles, her own) and we know Dean Thomas likes to draw. Magical kids could possibly work with parents or friends if they had an interest in the Arts as well. Plus, JKR did mention that Charms takes creativity, so maybe subjects like that are the magical outlets for imagination.

Mr. Crouch knew all those languages that Hogwarts doesn't teach. He must have learned thenm somewhere, and if others are interested in stuff like that, they could learn them too.

So, yeah, the Hogwarts education is well rounded for a wizard. Frankly, I just don't think they need stuff like technology and English as much as muggles - they have magical substitutes for them. I could just as easily ask why we don't study DADA or Tranfiguration at my school.

And, if the books spent time describing the joys of French class or the great time Harry had studying English, I think the books would kinda lose there touch. :p

I hope all that made sense . . . :huh:

[harripottrfreek]

The one thing I have wondered about Hogwarts and the students...do they go to school before Hogwarts? I mean in America most kids start school (Kindergarden) at 5, so do witches and wizards go to school before Hogwarts? I mean Harry did...I think, but do wizarding families send then kids to school?

[Magi]

I mean Harry did...I think, but do wizarding families send then kids to school?By now, you should know how to use the search function. This has already been answered quite a few times.... only 9 posts above, in fact:
Here's another handy one from World Book Day webchat, 2004 (link (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/JKRWorldBookDay2004.html)):

kai: Where do wizarding children go to school before Hogwarts?
JK Rowling replies -> They can either go to a Muggle primary school or they are educated at home. The Weasleys were taught by Mrs. Weasley.

So, it's either a Muggle primary school, or homeschooling. :)

[Trisha]

Dean Thomas has his artwork. Colin Creevey has his camera. But there are gaps in the liberal arts part of Hogswarts education.

Music: Apparently there is some sort of singing, at least the school song. Maybe Professor Flitwick sponsors a choral club?
Orchestra: Other than the Weird Sisters, there doesn't seem to be any mention of music in the wizarding world, which is bizarre given teenage culture. No concerts, pep assemblies, marching bands in parades. For that matter, no pom squads, cheerleaders, spirit boosters.
Drama: There seem to be no tryouts for plays, musicals, etc. How sad.
Physical Education: Broom practice and Quidditch aside, it doesn't seem to be offered. Harry could have benefited from swimming lessons, at least.
Art and Photography: Poor Dean and Colin! They could be learning how to animate portraits and photos.
School Publications: No student newspaper, no yearbook. Where did Rita Skeeter and Luna's dad learn their trades?

I enjoy the imagination that J.K. used in finding creative titles for her magical studies. Too bad we haven't heard anything about these extracurricular activities. Maybe not during their O.W.L.S year, but still.

[XanFan]

I was thinking about this topic today, and wanted to put my two cents in.

(As an aside, I am so proud of myself. I searched and found this thread and everything all by myself. Barbara Kennedy would be so proud! :cool: ) (Of course, she'll probably find a couple of others, too! :) )

I was thinking of Hogwarts as almost a vocational school. Here in the US, (or at least my part of the US) we have vocational schools. If a kid has an aptitude for, say, electronics or agriculture or mechanics, they can go to a vocational school. There, they are taught the specifics of the trade they wish to enter. But, they are also taught English, math, biology, etc.

I wonder if Hogwarts doesn't skimp their students a bit. Are there no wizard poets? No witch artists? No wizards writing great plays? And, as someone in this thread said ages ago, what about the study of language, politics and law?

And then, it hit me. Maybe *that's* how JK Rowling fits 1,000 students. We've tried to piece together how all these kids are being taught by so few obvious teachers. Ha! We just don't hear about the boring classes on Rubelda Makepeace's wizard poetry, or Plato's philosophy. (Ok, I made Rubelda up) That's where all the other students are! (Ok, maybe not)

So, do Hogwarts students receive what we would call a "classical" education? No. It does seem to be adequate. But, is adequate enough?

(I'm gonna go do more searches now. I feel so empowered!)

[LunaGoldstein]

I would think that the wizarding arts might be an afterschool activity not taken for credit. I'm one of those people who would go insane if there wasn't any arts in the school, especially theater, so I like to project that Hogwarts does offer these things. But like going to the bathroom and showering, perhaps it's one of those things that isn't written about happening but we can assume it does. I do find it odd that there doesnt seem to be any literature or creative writing, even in the library, but perhaps the fact that creativity and the arts aren't emphasized can explain why the wizarding world seems old fashioned and consvertative about a lot of things. I see a lot of imoportance in the role of artists and creative visionaries having a big role in society for creating change, so if there aren't as many of these in the wizarding world then it'd be easy for it to stay the same.
But even thought he movies aren't cannon, I was so delighted by Lupin's victrola that it convinced me that music does have a place in the magic world. Anywho, according to my biases, no I don't think Hogwarts is very well rounded:)
Has JKR said anything about wizard universities or other post-Hogwarts education?

[XanFan]

Has JKR said anything about wizard universities or other post-Hogwarts education?

She has said there are no wizard universities. Which I think is a shame, really. Sure, I know that it would mean people would want "Harry Potter and the University of Storge' " or something, but shouldn't wizards and witches have an opportunity for higher education?