At what point did Sirius gain Harry's trust?

[halfmoonspectacles]

I think that it is interesting to look at the passage in the Shrieking Shack and consider the exact point at which Sirius convinced Harry that he was a man who deeply loved his father and had never wished any harm on him. They go through the entire past, the entire history....at what point do you think Harry was convinced? While reading it, wave after wave of facts is revealed to you, but if u consider Harry, as he is ebing updated each time, it really seems queer that he would trust this man in the end. Do you think there is a possibility that its all lies? What proof do we really have? I don't intend to mean here at all I am just curious as to what really convinced Harry...Any thoughts?

[rotsiepots]

I'm moving this into the Great Hall. If another admin/mod thinks this thread should remain in the Books 1 - 4 Discussion Corner, please move it back. :)

[aiko amaya]

I think when harry truely gains his trust is when he see pettigrew with his own eyes in human form, really making the story true.

[RonFan24]

Also, the fact that Sirius had many opportunies to harm Harry and everyone else while in the Shrieking Shack, but didn't. I think Harry realized that Sirius's story was very logical and all the pieces fit together.

[pasalita]

Hm. Since I don't have the book on me, I'll have to work on memory (and, this theory may be subject to change as I am prone to correct myself.)

I think that Harry is convinced to trust Sirius during the moment that Sirius offers to have Harry live with him (i.e. and not with the Dursleys.) At that point, because Sirius provides Harry with this idea of freedom from constant repression from the Dursleys, Harry because wide-eyed and trusting of Sirius.

Though, I have to admit that as a reader, I am still very suspicious of Sirius, especially considering that there isn't much more than hearsay about Sirius' innocence. I guess I'd like to see the past play out, like with the Pensieve chapter in book 4 or the Tom Riddle diary chapter in book 2, in order to calm any qualms I have in the truth of Sirius' claims.

[Alastor D]

Peter did confess that he had been Voldie's spy. But, yes, he did not confess having been the secret keeper who betrayed the Potters. If Sirius were not innocent, would he really risk everything to get revenge on Peter?

[Weatherby]

I think Pasalita is most likely correct. Harry truly felt Sirius was his fathers friend when he suggested living with him but the seeds were sown once Lupin trusted him.
Harry respects Lupin and he has no reason not to believe him.

[mol93hermione]

I think that Harry trusted Sirius when he saw pettigrew become himself again.

I this because if pettigrew was the horrible person he was, and they always thought he was harmless when he was like scabbers, why couldn't someone they thought to be guilty be innocent. I think Harry learned that you cannot tell what someone is from the outside, and then he trusted sirius.

[GrangerGal]

I also think that Harry fully believed Sirius was innocent when he saw Peter come out of his rat form. One of the reasons he realized it was b/c of the simple fact that Peter stayed a rat for almost 12 years. Why would an innocent man fake his own death and stay a rat for so long? I also agree with Weatherby about Lupin. Lupin was a man Harry truly trusted and believed in so when he believed Sirius, Harry felt comfortable doing the same. It was a combination of everything that led up to the final realization. I believe in Sirius mostly b/c Dumbledore and Lupin believe in him and plus we see Peter with Voldemort.

[hedwig]

Originally posted by halfmoonspectacles (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=257578#post257578))
I think that it is interesting to look at the passage in the Shrieking Shack and consider the exact point at which Sirius convinced Harry that he was a man who deeply loved his father and had never wished any harm on him. They go through the entire past, the entire history....at what point do you think Harry was convinced? While reading it, wave after wave of facts is revealed to you, but if u consider Harry, as he is ebing updated each time, it really seems queer that he would trust this man in the end. Do you think there is a possibility that its all lies? What proof do we really have? I don't intend to mean here at all I am just curious as to what really convinced Harry...Any thoughts?


this is defo sumthin that has been playin on my mind too, we were so ready to believe that pettigrew was murdered by sirius but it cud be all a sham!!!

[GryffindorSeeker]

I think Sirius gained Harry's trust after he had seen Pettigrew and seen that everything they said fit together.

[Mike21]

Sirius gains Harrys trust when Sirius says "believe me" or something like that. However Harry must of beleived him before(or enough doubt had been made) then because he stops Snape from killing Sirius(he was going to get the dementers to give his a kiss).

[Sinistra]

Harry stopped Snape from killing Sirius more out of a sense of justice that trust. I think the turning point was when Pettigrew "appeared", but Harry trusted Sirius more after Peter was through with his little speech and grovelling. No truly innocent person would be so grovelly and weasely (well--ratty isn't a real word!). It was probably a gradual thing. First he trusted Sirius enough to not kill him, then he trusted the story when presented with the "corpus" in person, then he trusted the man somewhat when Lupin forgave him, then he probably gave him his full undivided trust when Sirius invited Harry to live with him.

[halfmoonspectacles]

Thank you for summing it up. I feel that the trust was earned on better terms now...but maybe ill reread that part...ahhh...any excuse to reread the books...lol

[Puffskein]

The book actually says "At long last, Harry believed him" when Sirius says that he would have died rather than betray James and Lily. I feel that maybe we didn't hear enough about what was going through Harry's mind as he heard the story. The narration suggests that his opinion was swayed by Pettigrew's fidgety body language, and by Lupin going along with Sirius.

I suppose Pasalita is right about Sirius's innocence being based on hearsay, but the revelation of Sirius's version of events is the central storyline of the book. I really don't think JKR would spend a whole book revealing a story that wasn't true! It would be a twist too far for me.

[Sinistra]

Yes, I agree JKR meant that Sirius' story was real. However, there may be more to it that not even Sirius knows. Such as, why did Fudge arrive to quickly after the explosion? How did he know to be there? And what else happened after Sirius was discovered? There may be more to that little scene that we may learn more about later. Remember about how Dumbledore told Harry that James saved Snape's life. Well, he did, but there were also extra circumstances we didn't know about until Snape told us.

[halfmoonspectacles]

Yes, that is a good point....You both have convinced me to squash any further qualms about the validity of Sirius' story....I think that I really got it when Puffskein siad that we had not heard a lot of Harry's internal thoughts...that is probably the exact reason why I was doubting this...we were kind of switched into this narrative from several perspectives: Lupin and Sirius mainly, but we heard very little of Harry's interior thoughts. Also, its not like we were hearing this from Dumbledore, which I would accpet without question....in the CoS interview on the DvD rowling mentions that if she ever needs to bring in a fact that is coming straight from her she uses Dumbledore (who is old and wise) or Hermione (who must have read it in a book)....its jus that in this scene neither of them were dishing out information, so it made me doubt, u know?

[Shi]

I think it was when Harry noticed that Peter used his middle finger to point because his index was missing, it just seemed to confirm that this was infact Pettigrew and that Black's entire story was true.

[NYCwitch920]

I share that aspect of not trusting Snape right away. I also had doubts about his story but when I saw how Pettigrew betrayed them by aiding Voldemort, I realized that Sirius was truly on their side. Although there may be a change of pace in Book 5. After all....we don't know everything, do we?

[Earendil]

This is one of my favorite parts in PoA. I don't have it in front of me at the moment, but it goes something like Sirius saying "Please believe me. I would have died before I would betray James and Lily", and Harry, throat too tight to speak, just nods. :'(
I also got the feeling throughout the entire book that Harry subconsciously knew (psychically?!) that Sirius was good. I always found the part where Harry is standing there, ready to kill Sirius in the Shrieking Shack yet never doing it, very strange. It seems like he somehow knew that Sirius wasn't the culprit.
However, I think he really became sure when Sirius said he would have died before betraying his parents. Sure, anyone can say nice words, but this is also in addition to seeing Peter and everything else that he told them.

[Nys]

I agree that the point of Sirius saying that he would of died before pretraying Jame was a turning point. Also I think the point where sirius said that he did Kill james through getting him to change the secret keeper. A guilty person automatically tries to blaime someone else rather than themselves. A truely great inocent person will generally blaime themselves for not being better or smarter etc. I think that Harry started to turn at that point, and was completely turned by the time that he saw Pettigrew.

[jordmundt6]

Yup. When all else fails, go with what the book tells you.

[Phineas Nigellus]

You know this man's killed your parents, you're furious, you see him dragging your friend to some freaky place, "the Shrieking Shack", then he says he does not deny killing your parents in a voice that is cruel as anything, then he grabs your neck and tries to strangle you.

The next second, this very 'believable' story with Lupin and the rest of the gang come up, and you're literally forced to believe what these people have to say. The story with how Black managed just in turn to give the "Secret Keeper" role to Pettigrew, about keeping sane in Azkaban.

For all you know, he and Lupin could've brain washed you.

How does Potter just 'sommer' believe what these maniacs have to say? One doesn't just accept that this Serial killer is your godfather, your Professor is a werewolf, don't you find how he quickly believed the story in all very strange and rushed?










PN.

[Cat]

Firstly, all the pieces of the story slotted into place.

Secondly, he looked in Sirius' eyes and saw honesty.

Thirdly, the only other person in their story was Peter who, frankly, didn't make a good argument for himself.

[Phineas Nigellus]

Obviously the story slotted into place. All very convenient for Rowling. But in that Shack, Potter believing the story without any doubts, giving no more thoughts......is just too much!

Especially when Black asks him to come and live with him, and Potter agrees, is this for real? I find it a bit far-fetched for Rowling to just put Potter agreeing so suddenly and quickly. He's known Black what 5 minutes, and not to mention the circumstances surrounding the whole Sirius-innocent story....the correct thing would be to say, "I'll think about that Sirius, Thanks"....Potter trusted him too easily.

Peter not making a good argument for himself is also questionable. His life is at stake, and all he can do is sob and wince. Trying to receive pity from Ron, Hermione was really ridiculous. Rowling could've done much more to his character.

Yes, the story makes sense, but its just so "PERFECTLY" set out by Lupin and Sirius, how Pettigrew after blowing the Muggles up, he turned into a rat and slithered into the sewers with his finger left behind. How're you suppose to know that finger was his? It could've been one of the Muggles in all that carnage.

All I'm saying is, Rowling should've made a more believable story to Black's innocence. I don't know if anyone's understanding me, but all I can see in the Sirius-Innocent story is a very cleverly laid out argument from Sirius, to which there can be no mistake, but I'm questioning Rowling's ability to convey the story into a form where I as a reader can trully understand and comply with the story. Not, "make-believe".

Its all very nice how everything was made into place, but the way how Black defended himself, how Potter just turned his head, is all very strange to me......






PN.
I'm not so sure if I made any sense there...

[Cat]

No, not really. It all made perfect sense to me. I found Sirius and Lupin very convincing and their story was a masterpieces by J. K. Rowling. If I was in that position, I'd believe Sirius too.

I probably wouldn't want to rush off to go and live with him right away, but you have to remember how desparately Harry wanted to get away from the Dursleys. In fact, you could say that this desparation helped him believe Sirius.

[MagiCils]

I agree that it is quite a swift conversion. However, when you find out your friend's rat has been living a lie for several years it does tend to corroberate Sirius' story! Also, as a victim of emotional and physical abuse at the hands of the Dursleys, I guess theres a great deal of wish fulfillment in the going-to-live-with-Sirius idea, which allows Harry's heart to rule his head.

[The Golden Snitch]

I think most of it had to do with Lupin and memories of his parents. Harry grew to trust Lupin over the year and this is probably why it was easier to believe Sirius, and they were both friends of his parents as he found out and I think he was desperate to get information on his parents,etc

[Andromeda_Black]

It did seem a preety far fetched stroy but when peter transforms the evidence is right there for him. There seems no other explanation as to why Pettigrew would have spent 13 years as Scabbers the rat!

Also i agree about the understanding between Sirus and Harry when they looked into each otherws eyes. I think in that moment Harry just knew that Sirius was someone he could trust and the unfairness of what had happened to Siius hit him. I think he also felt alot of empathy has he had found someone else who had been equally as devestated by his parents deaths. i think that also partly explains why he was so quick to make the decision to live with Sirius

[warwizard]

and lets not forget that before peter was transformed harry was still suspicious , but when peter transformed he not only corroberated they're story he ADMITTED to what he did, with all that whining over the dark lord and how he couldnt resist

[Jinna]

How're you suppose to know that finger was his? It could've been one of the Muggles in all that carnage.



I would assume DNA testing, or the magical equivalent. Or maybe he just had a very distinctive finger.

[Dark Fallen Pride]

I was almost suprised that Harry did trust him and was all of a sudden quite nice to him, I mean he can be pretty hard headed, the rat turning into wormtail though was the convincer, I think he would have tried to kill Sirius for revenge for his parents if wormtail didn't change. I still think it was a little odd that everyone (who knew anyway) all of a sudden was okay with having Sirius back and not even thinking about if he was actually telling the truth. He could have given the secret keeper to wormtail because he had other things to do for the the dark lord.

[Dedalus]

I found it pretty convincing. When I read the book for the first time, I actually trusted Black long before Harry did (but then I trusted him from the word go. I don't know why ... it just seemed right), and was surprised it took Harry so long. He had, to convince him ...
1) Lupin's trust in Black.
2) The stories inside Hogwarts, fitting in. Like Crookshanks trying to bring him Pettigrew and so on.
3) The "He's at Hogwarts" memory slotting into place.
4) Other Black and Lupin stories that fit in perfectly.
5) Black's feeling of deep guilt and remorse. He still choked up about it, many years on.
6) Scabbers being Pettigrew (this was the second biggest evidence)
7) Pettigrew's reactions, always looking like he wanted to flee.
8) Pettigrew's poor attempts at trying to explain himself, and Black's attacks on them being much stronger.
9) Pettigrew finally admitting that he did it (the biggest evidence, except that Harry already believed Sirius before this happened).

So it was a likely story to me. Harry was so drawn to Sirius after that, because he wanted to have someone like Sirius, he's wanted someone like him all his life, basically. And growing to trust and acknowledge someone after wanting to kill them in a very short space of time is bound to influence him a bit, as that'd have to be a strong bit of trusting. Why would he believe that Sirius was lying about anything else, if all this had proven false?

[Rose Zeller]

Ya know I hd to reread the part a few times to understand exactly
what was going on.
I was a bit suprised by Harry's mood change, I thought it was kind of prolonged like explaining everything (like how Black esaped Azkaban) and
Black saying that he did kill them in a way. In all though I felt that
the range of emotions in that one scene in the Skireking Shack was amazing, I never thought that Harry would be compeled to kill anyone aside from Voldy, then the all the revelations that when on there, it's
one of the best parts in the book.
I think that a lot of this confusion by this scene will be cleared up when the movie comes out.

[Mander]

I think when harry truely gains his trust is when he see pettigrew with his own eyes in human form, really making the story true.



my thoughhts exactly. If I were in harry'splace, I would never have believed till I saw it.

[pineapple]

Someone had actually told me that Sirius was Harry's godfather and was good before I read PoA, so all of the best parts were spoiled for me! But even with that knowledge, I was pretty convinced by the scene in the Shrieking Shack. I also think that a part of harry wanted to believe that Sirius was good (a small part), so that might've helped a bit too.

[noxerised]

there were a few things that happened for Sirius to gain Harry's trust:

1) Lupin trusted Sirius...

2) Lupin & Sirius exposed Scabbers/Pettigrew for what he really did, and that it was Pettigrew, not Sirius that led to the murder of Harry's parents...

3) When Sirius made the offer to Harry for a new place to stay over the summer...

i think it was a combination of all of those things that led to Harry trusting Sirius...

[harripottrfreek]

I think it was after Peter was no longer Scabbers and was admitting to what he did. I think Harry at first just wanted to know what the story was and have all the facts, he also maybe had a little faith in Lupin (most of it gone by Hermione's relevation), so I think once Harry heard and saw everything for himself he made up his mind and could figure things out on his own. Plus after hearing how much Sirius cared about and loved Harry's parents I dont really think he could deny trusting him once the truth about Pettigrew was out.