M-13 - Prayer in Schools- Yay or Nay?

[Stormy Haze]

I'm currently doing a research paper for school on this subject. In my class, each two students were assigned a topic and whether they were for or against it, and in a couple of weeks we'll debating them. I got this topic, and I'm supposed to be against prayer in school.

I made this thread so I could see what you guys thought, and maybe get a few ideas :).

[MadMagic]

I went to a catholic school, so not only did we have prayer, we also went to church every friday.

As for public schools, I don't think they should have prayer in classrooms and such. I think that is students want to have prayer groups and stuff, that is ok and they should be allowed to. It shouldn't be something that people feel pressured into participating in though.

[j_thunders]

It's not fair to make kids in public schools actually pray, because it would be awkward for the ones who don't believe in the power of prayer. If a parent wants their kid to pray in school, and have a class focused on religion, they should send them to a parochial school.

By the way, I'm Catholic, and I go to a Catholic high school. Oddly enough, there are a lot of Lutherans and even some non-religious people who go there as well.

[DragonslayerX]

Well, it's funny. Prayer in school is not allowed because of the ist Amendment, but in reality, making optional prayer in school is inconstitutional for this very reason.

The 1st Amendment states that the government will neither deny the rights of any one religion (or atheism), nor support one religion (or atheism). So, when the government prohibits prayer of any kind in school, then it is effectually supporting atheism.

[j_thunders]

Originally posted by DragonslayerX (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=289131#post289131))
The 1st Amendment states that the government will neither deny the rights of any one religion (or atheism), nor support one religion (or atheism). So, when the government prohibits prayer of any kind in school, then it is effectually supporting atheism.


That's a very good point.

This is how I see it: as long as the school isn't forcing anyone to pray, I think each individual should be able to decide if (say for instance) they want to say a prayer of thanks before they eat lunch, or if they don't want to. Decisions, decisions...

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

I'm deeply opposed to the idea of a state-sanctioned school prayer or moment of silence. If students want to worship on their own time (before classes, during lunch, etc.), let them. But a moment of silence is too easily abused, and it's unfair to the students who don't pray, or who aren't comfortable making prayers in that short space of time or that kind of environment. And there's absolutely no way to come up with a nondenominational prayer that will suit everyone.

[MadMagic]

A moment of silence doesn't have any religios conotations to me. I think it is more a sign of respect for something. If students want to pray during a moment of silence then that is up to them to decide. But if a student wants to just be quiet and think and reflect on something that is also up to them. I don't see how a moment of silence is a religious thing.

[DragonslayerX]

How is it unfair to students who don't pray to have a moment of silence in the morning? I can't see how that would make someone uncomfortable, unless they just don't like to sit still and quiet for a minute.

I mean, most students who wouldn't want to pray could find plenty of other things to do during that time, such as the homework you know they didn't finish the night before, get a headstart on their daily naps, or even doodle or draw.

Also, a lot of schools take this to an extreme limit, and prohibit students to have the Bible in class, or even to pray in their own time.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by MadMagic (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=289153#post289153))
I think it is more a sign of respect for something.

A sign of respect for what, though? If it's held at the beginning of every school day, doesn't that diminish its importance unless it's connected to something else? And what's the most obvious way to imbue it with meaning? Religion. Not necessarily "Our Father who art in heaven," but even meditation carries with it a certain spiritual import.

If a student wants to be quiet and reflect, or doodle, or whatever, there are plenty of opportunities during the day. But specifically setting aside a moment implies, at least to me, that there's something definite on which they're supposed to be concentrating. And a student who doesn't choose to concentrate, or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, mutters something under his breath, could be in for some criticism from his peers.

[Valerie]

I would like for there to be prayer in schools, and if you don't want to participate, no one will force you.

[Hermione]

That is true, no one will force you, but in high school there are tremendous amounts of peer pressure. For those students who don't pray it would seem that since they are not praying like the mass of students around them that they should be praying, even if that's not what they wish to do. At my school the freshmen class president was not re-elected for the sole reason that he didn't go to church( some even went as far as to say that he was an aethesist, though he isn't) , even though he had gone to several different churches and had not yet found the one that fit him. I attend a publc school where prayer is encouraged, even though I feel that it should not be allowed in the regular school day, I have no problem with it being started by the students at games and other events.

[zora_domina]

I certainly belive that any child should decide *for themself* whether they require a prayer. If they want to pray for their test scores... let them - but frankly those of us who have never even believed in higher forces that might *hear* those prayers, I certainly don't want my tax dollars going to support a public-school prayer moment.

That is a moment that the teacher ought to be spending preparing the class, that the students might have to relax into their chairs or whatnot. If they'd like to spend it in a moment of reflective silence, meditation, prayer or just squatting on their thumbs, that's their business. ...

If someone is attending a religious school - THAT is their private business as well.

I also particularly do not like having a big prayer being said by athletes. But that's just my beef with them. THEY are the ones doing the work... Unless they're the Chargers in the Semi Finals. Then, it's obviously divine intervention. :p

And, I would also like to add that in no way is "athiesm" a religion. It does not follow any doctrine whatsoever, it is far more of a personal, usually educated, decision to opt out of a situation that one does not believe in supporting. Therefore - athiesm cannot be promoted or denied by our freedom of speech amendment. Agnosticism perhaps is what was meant - but athiesm simply denies any and all possibility, (okay - IMHO, because that's what I believe, since there is no athiest church to learn the behavior from... proving my point...) and needs no moment of silence or prayer to enact a miracle.

Or better yet, that moment ought to be spent preparing FOR that test... :p

-zora

[DocHollidaywe]

I am a Christian, and totally believe in prayer in school. However I think it should not be a required everyone prayer thing. I like how my school has it, we at the begining of 2nd hour everyday we have the Flag Salute and 1 minute of silence, to meditate, prayer, or just sit quietly. As for complete banning of prayer in school, well theres the famous quote
"As long as teachers give test, there will be prayer in school"

[DragonslayerX]

First off, Hermione, where I am from, it is the complete opposite. High school kids are more ashamed of admitting they participate in church and such. More kids would probably feel embarrassed to pray. And it's even worse if they wanted to do it on thier own.

Secondly, zora, I did mean atheism. However, I did not mean to say atheism is a religion, what I was really trying to say is it is just as unconstitutional to deny someone the right to practice their religion in school, or anywhere else. In fact, this was the reason for the law, it wasn't to keep people from feeling awkurd.

Also, if someone wanted to spend that extra minute preparing for a test, they can. A moment of silence isn't for everyone to meditate or pray, it's to allow time for those who want to.

Oh, and just to clear up any misunderstandings, I'm also atheist, so I don't really consider myself biased in my opinion.

[Lady Greyjoy]

An emphatic no

School is for learning

Church is for praying


How can this offend anyone? One can pray at school, it just can't be sanctioned by the state unless they have alot and i mean alot of fine print


O God, O Shiva, O Evolution, O Almighty Dollar, O Nothingness, O Apollo, O Goddess hear oror since you don't exist, and if you do its news to us do not hear our prayer, we pray or not to you/he/she/it, for good health and knowlege etc. to exclude "establishing" a certain religion athorities would have to include all possible faiths and non-faiths, which would be more trouble than its worth...since one can pray silently or after school or in club.....

You should learn in class not have state sanctioned prayer (although when taking algebra II tests i have called upon every god that might or may have existed to help me....which didn't do much good i might add.

Americans value individualism....therefore i say pray on your own time, or in your head

Salty rant ended

[DragonslayerX]

Actually, I do not think the topic is a group led prayer sanctioned by the government, but rather time put aside (such as a minute of silence) in order for people to have a chance to pray.

[Lady Greyjoy]

Well i just saw the title and jumped right in:o

Still my point is that ' a minute of silence' in which to pray can occur during a test (when all is silent), or after school (when they can have an hour of silence if they wish), Why take school time out for 'silence' when a class is silent much of the time...

Why not just say on the first day of class "you are free to pray silently whenever you wish" and leave it at that:sigh:

[DragonslayerX]

Well, that would work, but then if a child has his eyes closed, he could just tell the teacher he was "praying." In all, that method would be [bmore[/b] of a distraction for classes, because you could have half the students praying while the teacher is trying to have a class discussion.

[daniel4hp]

I think that students in public schools should have the option of praying. Whether this was done by having a time of silence, or merely saying that any student was free to pray when they wanted to, I believe that there should be nothing keeping students from praying. In the same way, no student should have to pray.

[roz]

It is interesting to read this becuase my mother is a teacher in the UK. In British schools there legally has to be a public act of Worship every day.

Personally I think that I sould have the freedom to pray if I want to (or not if I don't). I went through enough difficulties from my peers about praying when I was at school without the teachers or the government trying to stop me too.

Roz.

[Tarawyn]

I don't think any time should be devoted for the option to pray or not, but if someone is going to pray quietly/silently on their own time, whether it's lunch or a break between classes or just before a test - well, that's their decision, and I believe it to be a constitutional right. Setting aside time with the said option for prayer is going to build up a barrier one way or another, in favor or against, and with peer pressure added into the mix, I don't see the point. Some of my teachers give us the occasional minute to compose ourselves and calm down, and while I doubt many if any people use that minute to pray, if it isn't going to distract them and works to the goal of composure, then they can go ahead.

I'm honestly for complete and total separation. Leaving a gap for prayer is, IMO, bridging the gap with stepping stones. Not a full-fledged bridge, but too much for my liking. Teachers giving kids a sporadic moment to calm down is a very different issue, but that's the furthest I'd take this.

[roz]

Isn't alot of the contraversy in the US at the moment about whether students should be allowed to gather to pray.

Should a group of like minded students ba allowed to gather at lunch to pray?

Roz.

[Tarawyn]

I haven't noticed any controversy on the subject, but honestly, most of the controversies with prayer and diversity are passed over in my area. It's too diverse for any of the argument to take effect.

f a group of students isn't bothering anyone, can do so quietly and without making fuss or making a widespread proclamation that they're praying, why not? I don't think it's too far off from religious "clubs" at schools (which is popular enough where I live if nowhere else).

[Sirius83]

A school with a religious base - such as a school founded by the church, should have prayers - although not ask students of other beliefs to follow along. In a public government run or a private non-religious based school, no, definately not.

[triki1988]

I believe no one can stop you from praying. If prayers are what help you and you just need/have to, then do it. No one has to find out, you can do it while in your desk or in the library, walking to class, etc, and quite discreetely by the way, like I had to do once.
I think it all boils down on how much faith you've got and whether you think it's "embarrassing" to pray in school or not.

[DragonslayerX]

Tarawyn, why shouldn't the students be allowed to make a "widespread proclamation" that they are praying?

[Sirius83]

I think i can answer that one. Simply because it would bother those who don't wish to participate. Everyone must have their religious freedomes, but at the same time, they can't be allowed to try to get others who don't follow the practice in on it.

[Tarawyn]

Sirius, you hit it on the nail. The "proclamation" is what bothers people, makes people feel excluded, starts working up peer pressure for or against it, is aggravating, and will most likely get the prayer pushed out for reasons other than the Constitution. Is there any reason to hide the fact that they're praying? No. That's the choice of those involved. But there's less of a reason to flaunt it, to fling it in the face of people not invovled.

[M a r v o l o]

They should just have a "reflection moment of silence" or sumthin of the like, so that each individual can pray in their own religion and for those who do not have a religion, they can just meditate.

[Manyasha]

I completely agree with Tarawyn. One of a few things I like about my school is that we don't have anything connected with religion there. No prayers, no anything like that. No wonder - an ex-USSR school :p Well, actually, if people need to pray, they can do it in church, or at home, or wherever but then pray to themselves. Even having an extra minute for praying or just for silence woud really make me feel uncomfortable. I was once a part of a community where people stood up before lunch and prayed to thank for the meal they had. Well, I was not enforced to, but almost everyone did, and I was like a "white raven" among them. I prayed out of etiquette, but I mixed up the words (it was in ancient Slavic language, not normal Russian) and generally felt very awkward. Maybe it's just me, but I don't like these things, and I would really hate it if I was to witness such prayer every morning at school. But that's only MHO.:shrug:

[Morgoth]

It is actually law in the UK for schools to provide adequate Christian worship for all pupils and to provide the necessary facilities for other religions to practise their faith, such as prayer rooms for Muslims. If you don't wish to attend Christian worship, then parental permission must be given, otherwise you have to go. Now this may sound like it denies the students the right to choose and I suppose it does, but you're not compelled to pray or sing or partake in the service, just sit there. That's what I did most of the time, either with some headphones on or just resting my head against the wall and sleeping.

I don't think a British system would work in the USA because individual liberties are taken so seriously at a very young age, which is admirable but also means that situations like prayer in schools or evangelism becomes very difficult for teachers to handle. In the event that someone's liberties are stepped on, you risk a law suit and another Conservative Christian vs. ACLU battle commences.

I personally, see no reason why Christians, Muslims, Jews or whoever shouldn't be allowed their own time to pray or express their faith in ways that don't force others to. It doesn't do anyone any harm and if you are a strong independant person, it shouldn't threaten you either. It would also go a long way to helping to reduce the tensions that this causes for Christians.

[DragonslayerX]

I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but does it really matter whether or not you feel comfortable with a person's religion? I mean, the only time rights can be limited is when there are conflicting rights, and frankly, comfort is not a right. So, if a person goes to a mostly Christian school, and does not feel comfortable with someone praying, why should they be able to limit how someone prays? Is this one person's comfort more important than a school full of people's Constitutional rights? If so, then I could have a lot of things banned. For instance, a lot of people don't feel comfortable with rap music. So, then any shirts featuring rappers on it should be banned from school.

So, the bottom line is, a rule allowing for a minute of silence or whatever in the morning, does not fringe anyone's constitutional rights, so it should not be made illegal. That being said, I think it should be left to the discretion of each school. I mean, a school with maybe 2 people who are devout in their religion, does not warrant such a minute.

As for students "proclaiming their faith" it is upheld in the Freedom of Speech, so long as they do it in a way that doesn't cause a riot, or anything.

[Morgoth]

Originally posted by DragonslayerX (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=290696#post290696))
I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but does it really matter whether or not you feel comfortable with a person's religion?


Well this is largely why so many people are for/against such practises in schools. They feel threatened by people expressing themselves in ways they deem will damage them or their children. I think it's a load of nonsense myself and people just want to cause trouble for the sake of it. I personally didn't care in school. It shouldn't really be a big issue. I mean, what harm does praying do to someone?

[Tarawyn]

A lack of comfort can escalate rapidly. It sets in for bullying, possible peer pressure, things we've already brought up. Once again, in my area, the sheer diversity of the place sets it so almost nowhere is predominantly anything, and prayer would put tension at a high spot. And the bottom line is, I think that minute is too much of a bridge. The further away organized religious practice of any type can be kept from schools and such, the better. Knowing the type of country we are and how some areas are with religion, there are too many possible problems and escalations where liberties would be infringed. The practice itself doesn't necessarily infringe liberties, but this is even more of an issue than, say, the Pledge of Allegiance, and that stirred up enough trouble.

For the "proclamation of faith," again, I don't want the escalation that could and would in some places cause a riot. The best way to solve a problem is not to let it start.

Some people take this very seriously. I don't like the idea of mixing - there's no problem with prayer, but what's the point of adding it in until we're ready to deal with it? Are we? I don't think so.

[Manyasha]

Just a liitle question: are we discussing prayer in US schools or just prayers in schools? 'Cause I feel I shouldn't say much in the first case... :sorry:

[DragonslayerX]

Well, I think it is mostly a discussion on American schools, but I think any comments about other countries are just as appropriate.

Tarawyn, a minute of silence to do as you please is not organized religion. It is the furthest thing from organized religion. Also, if you want to discuss possible side effects, if there was a law saying that a minute of silence is illegal, this could easily be translated into, "Any prayer of any kind is illegal in school," which is unconstitutional.

Also, no, maybe a lot of areas are not ready for prayer in school, but a lot are. This is why I said this should be a decision for local school boards to discuss, not for the national government to decide.

[Morgoth]

I agree with DsX. I don't see how a minute's silence is an endorsement of organized religion. You can't force a person to pray in silence. It's simply a moment of reflection.

The only problem with allowing prayer to occur in school is the possibility that it will start the ball rolling for further demands at a later stage, such as Bible study classes, open worship days etc and it will be harder to refuse such requests. I can see both arguments, for and against. I don't think it will ever be resolved as long as their in such a divided opinion.

[Tarawyn]

Okay, you win :) You're right about that. I'm against the moment itself for other reasons, the first being that organized anything of this type bothers me because for too many people it means nothing, in this case whether they're religious or not, but that's another issue. One thing I do want to bring up is that localizing it would mean that for some places, it'd never get there. If it's a local issue, legalities are less likely to come into it, but the variation might cause problems, like if kids were to switch schools or districts, something of the sort. Also, even in an area primarily religion X, the exceptions are likely to cause some degree of problem...the opinion is divided, Matt, and that's the peak of where problems would start.

[Manyasha]

Ok, I'll just make a few points:

In case my previous post was misunderstood, I feel comfortable with every religion and I don't think that only just because I feel awkward when people pray around me, they shouldn't pray. But. I don't like when it's forced upon me, officially or not, verbally or not. To me personally prayer in school has something in common with church service. I don't go to church, so why should I be required to participate in collective prayer at school? I understand it's not "necessary", but I've felt enough looks on me when I just stood and didn't pray. You know, when people silently stare at you and pretend that they don't mean to, and say without words "Oh, so she is not with us.....". IMO, such prayer only develops conflict situations. And a minute of silence, as someone mentioned before, can be so easily abused that I don't see the need to have it, but I can accept it.
Illegal prayer is complete rubbish, but I don't think collective prayer should take place in school. It can bring harm to communication between students. I'm very glad that I don't know if some of my classmates are atheists or Christians, and frankly, I don't care. But there are people who can make quick conclusions after such "prayer" and have something against believers/non-believers. No collective prayer => the possibility of bullying for religious reasons is lower, unless of course you let everyone know that you are Christian, Atheist, Muslim, Buddhist, etc.

Hope I made sense this time...

[Lady Greyjoy]

Sorry for beating a dead horse,

But in the United States Constitution (speaking only for us USA residece) it is against the law to for the goverment (public libraries, courts) to establish a religion ( that means for any one religion [christianity, hinduism etc] to be set up by the goverment) ie. separation of church and state. They can't legaly set up anything, including the belief in no god and the belief in a god.....this as has been noted before is very difficult to deal with...my solution have the teachers say at the beginning of class if you wish to pray do so silently or at break (when no classes-- no goverment sponsered prayer)can occur...then everyones happy and the law is upheld.

[zora_domina]

That's it in a nutshell Lady Greyjoy - I agree... The separation must continue to be set forth. Churches are places where I believe one would go for their religious education or practice of faith (if they must, I don't see why organized religion must do a lot of the things it does but that's off topic) and schools are where one's "mundane" skills, education and socialization is done.

If I were to be forced to even be surrounded by a number of praying students, I would be extremely uncomforable. My jr high school principal was heavily christian, and carried a bible around with him as he walked around the school. That made *most* of my friends *extremely uncomforable* around him. We had never experienced such a thing before. He shook my hand when we met and said "That's a very beautiful Biblical name" re: learning my name was Sara. I felt like I was being judged on different terms than my prior schooling had given me preparation for.

It was very awkward. People tend to act a certain way around their religious group, than when they are at a school function.

To learn that in the UK you "must" have a such-and-such religious experience *really* bothers me. That's barbaric. It's no wonder, to me, that the catholics and protestants have been fighting for so long. Don't take that the wrong way, it just suddenly enlightened me into the culture since I'm full-on Athiest American.

I could never in good conscience send a child of mine into a school that has prayer as a *sanctioned* event. Allowing children to say a prayer is great - SILENTLY. But to me, the exposure to a behavior that is not of "my" social bent (be it prayer, burning incense and chanting, or what have you) is annoying at the least, unnerving at its worst. Imagine if you would, the requirement of having a brand or tattoo that said your religion boldly to see. That's *to me* just about the same as having an organized or *group* activity at a public school. It makes those of us without that mark "seem like outsiders" and not feel like they were fitting in properly.

Anyway that's my extra 2 cents.

-zora

[Emma]

I believe that it should be up to the individual. If you want to fine, if you don't fine. No one needs to tell you.

[DragonslayerX]

It's funny. I am actually excited when I see a different culture. To me, staying in a cultural shell is similar to inbreeding: You do not get the better traits that other cultures have, so eventually this weakness shows in your offspring.

Teens argue that they should be able to die their hair blue in order to "express" themselves, but when they see someone expressing themselves by carrying around a Bible, then they become uncomfortable and say school isn't the place to express yourself. Why?

[raeredeyes]

hmm, i say if you want to have Christan values instilled into you, go to a christian school...

I disagreed with having to go to scripture classes and praying in a public school, as it is run by the governement and the Australian government is secular.
I went to a Catholic school in my senior years, and i did what they wanted me to, which included prayer/chapel. But that was because i was there of my own choice, and therefore, i had no right to question their ideas.

If i was in a non-secular society, such as a muslim country, i would expect that there would be religious elements in their schools...

I just dont think there should be religion present in gonvernment schools in secular societies. Makes no sense to me.

[zora_domina]

Originally posted by DragonslayerX (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=292061#post292061))

Teens argue that they should be able to die their hair blue in order to "express" themselves, but when they see someone expressing themselves by carrying around a Bible, then they become uncomfortable and say school isn't the place to express yourself. Why?


Because until blue hair is the norm, carrying a bible is an expression of another "herd", another custom, another tradition which is held by SO many people (at least here in the usa of course), it is only expressing yet another version of commonality. The church is something that teens typically rebel against as well, which is why I think this feeling would be present. It is *not* an individual expression - it is a bond to a cultural standard.

I think personally, when I would see the rare student who carried a bible about with him, I would be afraid that he'd attempt to convert me - this happened several times, and one of my closest friends was RUINED (emotionally and mentally) by a group doing so. So it's a mistrust of a group image, an expecation that that group will try to assimilate me in an inappropriate time and place. If I were hanging out near a church trying to figure out what I could learn inside, I would welcome someone approaching me with the tools of their trade. But a public school is NOT that environment. I want someone with a telescope, literature and math books coming at me on a school ground. :)

-zora

[Goldie]

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states, to paraphrase, that the Government will neither promote one religion over another nor prevent anyone from freely practicing the faith of their choice. Or lack thereof.

In practice, the only way to do that is to totally keep religious matters and public matters apart.

Designating any prayer as suitable for public use, regardless of how innocuous, still promotes a belief in a supreme being, which violates the athiest's right not to believe.

It isn't even possible to create such a prayer. Christians, for example, always pray in Christ's name. A prayer that doesn't "go through Christ" doesn't count. On the other hand, I'm Jewish, so a prayer routed through Jesus means absolutely nothing to me, and in fact feels like a violation of the First Commandment - to put no other gods before God.

How would Christians feel if they lived in a society that insisted on public prayer, but did not permit praying through Jesus? Pretty much the same way I feel when some public figure offers a prayer in Christ's name - first, that it isn't a prayer at all, and second, that I'm being illegally force-fed someone else's religion.

"Moments of silence" aren't any better. The phrase is used as a code-word to get around the fact that if they called it what is was intended to be, they'd never get away with it.

I'm not against prayer, just being forced to pray according to someone else's rules.

[roz]

"Moments of silence" aren't any better. The phrase is used as a code-word to get around the fact that if they called it what is was intended to be, they'd never get away with it.

I think there are times and places when a moment of silence does work. The silence on Rememberance Sunday for example (The UK equivilent of Veterans Day) or the silences that happened in response to 9/11. I think that a time to reflect can be important. As a Christian I do tend to use those moments to pray but that is because my response to the horrors that are being remembered is to pray. I have friends who are athiests who will just stand and not do anything because it is their way of honouring the dead.

I think that these times will loose their meaning if they are over used though. There is no point in having them if we don't use them properly. I think that they should only be used for specific purposes and sparingly.

Roz.

[Charmed]

My take on the situation is that prayers in religous schools are fine. However prayers/religous lessons in public/state schools should not be allowed. I went to a public school and we had scripture every monday in primary school and in high school from year 7-9 we also had it. Of course if your parents didn't want you to attend you were given extra work to do in that time.

[Girl]

Prayer in schools should be allowed but the students should have the free choice to pick if he/she wants to join in on the prayer. Nobody should be forced into doing something they don't want. This way all sides are happy the parents who want their kids to pray can and those who don't can have their kids do something else. However the kids who don't want to join in on the pray should not be given extra work but be given something more on the line of maybe a debate team or a decustion area where they can talk about what is on their mind.

[Snowangel]

I don't live in the States but in Canada, where we don't have the same tradition of separation of state and church. However, all we had in school, as I remember it, was a "moment of reflection", which is not prayer, and I personally doubt anyone actually used that time to pray. I just stood there. Anyways, this "moment of reflection" seems fine to me because people can pray if they want to, but in a silent way. Others can think about whatever they want.

I agree with those, however, that think that a public school is not a place in which prayer should take place in a public way. (Students can pray on their own or in groups, if they wish).

[nfh_aftran]

DragonslayerX
I'm sorry if this sounds offensive, but does it really matter whether or not you feel comfortable with a person's religion? I mean, the only time rights can be limited is when there are conflicting rights, and frankly, comfort is not a right. So, if a person goes to a mostly Christian school, and does not feel comfortable with someone praying, why should they be able to limit how someone prays? Is this one person's comfort more important than a school full of people's Constitutional rights? If so, then I could have a lot of things banned. For instance, a lot of people don't feel comfortable with rap music. So, then any shirts featuring rappers on it should be banned from school.

Excuse me? In schools, comfort is a right. And, just so you know, schools have the right to take away your Constitutional rights. Every last one of them. Which is why you can't take a gun to school, and why you can't yell at a teacher.
If it is a public school, they cannot force prayer on a student. If a student wants to pray, goodie for them. And yes, one student's comfort is more important that an entire school's daily routine. One more thing. Schools can keep you from wearing a t-shirt with a particular rapper on them, if they feel the need for it. Where I go to school, some teachers will take away articles of clothing if the have the Confederate flag on them. Which I think doesn't make any sense, because I don't know a single person offended by them.

Oh. And theres a little law that talks about "Seperation of church and state." Private schools can force prayer, Public schools cannot.

[HPviolinist85]

At my high school (I'm a senior), every night at musical, we pray for a good show. We are basically all of the christian religion, but if someone wasn't religious, they would just step outside. The majority of us wanted to pray. Also, like during 9/11, we had a prayer service right around the flagpole at my high school, and around graduation we have a baccalauriate where we have a Christian priest come and do a service and people in the senior class perform religious gospel songs. It probably only offended one person at our school, but there wasn't a riot or anything. I'm accually very glad because I go to a public school and still have this type of freedom to express my religious beliefs because hey- everyone else is doing it too

[DragonslayerX]

Originally posted by nfh_aftran (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=294783#post294783))
Excuse me? In schools, comfort is a right. And, just so you know, schools have the right to take away your Constitutional rights. Every last one of them. Which is why you can't take a gun to school, and why you can't yell at a teacher.
If it is a public school, they cannot force prayer on a student. If a student wants to pray, goodie for them. And yes, one student's comfort is more important that an entire school's daily routine. One more thing. Schools can keep you from wearing a t-shirt with a particular rapper on them, if they feel the need for it. Where I go to school, some teachers will take away articles of clothing if the have the Confederate flag on them. Which I think doesn't make any sense, because I don't know a single person offended by them.

Oh. And theres a little law that talks about "Seperation of church and state." Private schools can force prayer, Public schools cannot.


How is comfort a right in schools? When was the last time you felt comfortable taking a major exam that you hadn't studied for? Did you have the right not to take that test because it made you uncomfortable?

Also, you are patially mistaken on the idea that schools can take away your constitutional rights. Yes, they can, but only when the upholding of that right interferes with the educational process. As for guns being allowed, that is not a constitutional right. You are allowed to own guns according to the Constitution, but that does not give you the right to take it anywhere you please. In fact, you are not allowed to bring a gun into any public building, as far as I know (unless of course, it was a place that dealt in guns, or used guns in some way).

Now, I personally do not see how having a moment of silence in the mornings would cause a great commotion or anything. I don't know, maybe it would. That is why what I suggested was a decision made at the local level, where people would be better able to predict the impact.

As for your final statement, this was the "little law" I was referring to. The "law" is the 1st Amendment, and it states that the government will neither show favortism in religion, nor deny anyone the right to worship how they please, or not worship. In otherwords, our government will remain secular, and it cannot deny anyone the right to worship, or not worship.

But again, allowing students a moment of silence to do as they please does not violate this amendment. It does not force you to pray, it just provides the opportunity to pray how you wish. However, not allowing the students to pray at all does violate this amendment, because it is prohibiting someone to worship as they please.

Also, the US Senat prays everytime it meets. No one is claiming this is unconstitutional, even though it is an organized prayer. So, why is providing an opportunity to pray at school so much worse?

[Tarawyn]

Perhaps it's because while we aren't in the Senate, and aren't likely to be, some of us are in school and many of us are likely to have children in school? It's harder to concern yourself with a small body of people who you don't know very much about - I wasn't aware that they prayed, although it doesn't surprise me - than with yourself, your friends, and your family. More realistic answers: ignorance (i.e. I'm not the only one who didn't know), people don't care, or because it's "tradition" and prayer in schools "isn't."

Taking a less heated look at the situation - a moment of silence would have other issues factored into it, and if the school wanted to use it and the kids didn't have a problem with it (as one of the raging debates at my school right now is how we've undergone a series of administrative changes without anyone knowing), and prayer is only one option out of an unstated amount, that's fine. Not something I would want around here in any case, but if it's wanted, it's fine. On another note...I considered silent prayer as this would be and prayer two different things when I was religious, though...personal, maybe, but does it address the original issue?

[DragonslayerX]

Well, I thought the original issue was a silent prayer at the beginning of school everyday...

I mean, I have not heard of any schools, or even any Christians, wanting an entire class to conduct a group prayer in the morning. Yes, that would be against the 1st Amendment.

[Tarawyn]

Well, I'm guessing that this is all based on my interpretation of silent prayer, which is really more meditative than anything else, and I'm not sure if that meditation really fits under prayer. I wasn't thinking of class prayer, but I'm not sure what I was thinking of. How would you define prayer here?

[DragonslayerX]

I would define prayer in my case, I would define prayer as a silent "discussion" with God, or whatever deity they believe in. I do not mean getting down on your knees, or making a big scene that could be distracting.

[Annerach]

It is really unfair to have any religious or anti-religious discussion in school. Even the Pledge of allegience is unconstitutional. I always stay seated during that because of the "Under god" part, Among other reasons. If you want to pray ou loud, go to a christian school. If you pray silently and don't mention that your doing it, Fine with me.

[FoolOnTheHill]

I'm all for the complete separation of church and state.

Also, if we did have a prayer time in school, and I started to pray, I am positive that I would be told to stop or go somewhere else to do it. Not all prayer is quiet or silent. As a Buddhist, I pray by chanting these words over and over. And I can't do it silently. I wouldn't want to disturb the Christians, but at the same time it would be unfair if they could pray and I couldn't. Yep. That's my 2 cents.

[CautionESPN]

Just a quick recollection from my youth. I went to a smallish school, about 30 kids in my grade and i remember specifically a time when one kid was beaten up for supporting Dukakis over Reagan. We were 12 (6th grade). People who say that prayer in school won't cause problems clearly don't remember what is was like to be in school or aren't one of the people in school who feels differently than the majority. As for the contention that not supporting school is support for atheism. I don't play sports, does that mean that I don't like sports? A college doesn't have a football team, does that mean the college disapproves of football? There should be no conclusions drawn from the disallowance of school prayer.

In no way would I ever support a religious activity in any government sponsored activity. Separation of church and state is a fundamental pillar of the US Constitution. Once you start putting cracks in the foundation the house will fall.

Chris M.

[RbFmAn24]

I don't really know where to put this but i just want your opinion on this. Okay so our class had a test and a project due right before passover. Everybody was scrambling to get the project and i go up to this kid and he is just relaxing. Then i see him in the class with the project due in. So i ask him after class why he didnt have to do it. He said that since it was passover on like i think it was friday he didnt have to do it. I'm like what?! It was Good Friday on friday too. Do you think that is right??

[pasalita]

Okay, since the above post is on the same vibe as this discussion, I've merged it (and the thread) into here. The main idea I got from it was kind of like flipping the script on the idea of religious freedom. Is there such a thing as taking advantage of one's religious beliefs?

Cheers!

[Sherlock Holmes]

Originally posted by RbFmAn24 (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=296821#post296821))
I don't really know where to put this but i just want your opinion on this. Okay so our class had a test and a project due right before passover. Everybody was scrambling to get the project and i go up to this kid and he is just relaxing. Then i see him in the class with the project due in. So i ask him after class why he didnt have to do it. He said that since it was passover on like i think it was friday he didnt have to do it. I'm like what?! It was Good Friday on friday too. Do you think that is right??


I'm assuming he was an observant Jew, in which case, yeah, Passover is a big deal. Good Friday, on the other hand, is a Christian holiday to remember Jesus' last free day (before His arrest, trial, etc on Friday night/Saturday morning). For most Christians, it's much less of an important day than Passover is for Jews.

So if my assumptions are correct about your friend, I maybe understand why he didn't have to do the assignment. Though I would think that he was allowed to turn it in later, like Monday, rather than not do it at all.

[zora_domina]

Pasalita:

Yes I'm sure that there are cases, but I haven't personally encountered it. I know there are jokes and comedians who comment on the process of taking day after day in "observance" of some obscure (or not so obscure but not common in Christian/Catholic type areas) holy day just to get off work.

If I start my own religion, will I be able to take days off in honor of myself? :)

-zora

[Lady Greyjoy]

I think that would be allowed :D

[zora_domina]

Thank you! I'll make sure to tell everyone here, so we can all (regardless of prior religious commitments of course) and take a couple days off for posting boards and web site maintenance.

Leet should legalize itself as a religious movement. heh.

Anyway - to drag this back on topic....

Ideally, I think it would be best to have "holidays" for countries which mean something more than they do now - but not in the religious contexts. Officially sanctioned religious events kind of bother me but honestly I don't mind having a day off for a thing I don't necessarily believe in. Of course, I don't actually think we ought to have Columbus day in the USA. Why don't we have an officially recognized Native people's day? So much for fairness about which days are chosen! :p

-zora

[LewsTherin]

Well, here's my opinion of the topic. It depends on the results: if prayer in schools has a positive effect, natuarlly, it should be there. If not, then it shouldn't, but as prayer will almost always have a positive effect, I don't see why there should not be prayer in schools. I don't think people who do not want to pray should be forced to, but I think those that want to should be allowed to organize a prayer meeting, gathering, etc. At my school we had a prayer meeting every morning for everyone who wanted to join in, and let me tell you, it had a very positive effect on the school with a number of things improving almost immediately. If this makes non-believers uncomfortable, well then, they should remeber that those who want to pray have a right to do so (except of course, that everybody wants to deny them that right).

That's my contribution. Sorry if I intruded on something.

[Morgoth]

I pretty much agree with Lews on this one. I fail to see how prayer in school is a problem for people. I suppose as I went to a Christian school, I'm used to seeing such displays and none of it affected what I believed, I had my own thoughts and views on the world, to which no amount of prayer or worship could change.

I don't think it's a crime on civil rights to have prayer in schools. It's a civil rights abuse to ban people from praying. You have to reach a happy medium, whereby those that want to pray, can do so without fear of repurcussions and those that don't want to, can simply do other things to pass the time. No one should have a monopoly on people's beliefs or freedoms to express themselves. There has to be a balance.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Sherlock seconds all of what Matt just said, and is slightly shocked to find himself in total agreement... :)

[Crystal]

I don't think prayer in schools is right. It is our right to form our own religious beliefs, not have them foisted on us!

[zora_domina]

I completely disagree, as I fail to see how "prayer will almos always have a positive effect." I have never seen a prayer be answered - I've only seen students actually *study* for a test. I've never seen Jesus run 60 yards for a touchdown, I've only seen a lot of very hard-working athletes do their best during a game...

I'm sorry, that's my opinion. I have never enjoyed "prayer" because frankly I have never, not even as a very young child, believed in it. I believe in work, thought and independant actions... I'm not part of a religious group of people, never have been.

Not everyone is Christian, Catholic or otherwise, Lews. I certainly am not, and many of my customers are Buddists or practice other forms of beliefs that do not require prayer outside of the home or temple.

It is our civic duty to keep our beliefs and not (as said in the above post by Crystal) have it foisted upon us by anyone. However it is our constitution which does explicitly state that a religion does NOT constitute "public" use. It is a private thing, and should maintain a distance as such, from publically funded and supported things.

Anything less than that, and I've got to find me a new place to live, because I support YOUR right to have YOUR religion - when it's in church or your non-public school. I'd even donate to a church that is having a fund raiser for a goal I believe in. But not to get into heaven for it - to help whatever cause it is.

But I feel very uncomfortable around people who insist upon praying in public - not necessarily because I believe they're trying to "convert" me or something, but I always do get the vague sense that I'm expected to join in because it's "normal". It is not normal for me, nor most of the people I know.

Anyway - that's my latest 2c. :)

-zora

Originally posted by LewsTherin (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=300395#post300395))
Well, here's my opinion of the topic. It depends on the results: if prayer in schools has a positive effect, natuarlly, it should be there. If not, then it shouldn't, but as prayer will almost always have a positive effect, I don't see why there should not be prayer in schools. I don't think people who do not want to pray should be forced to, but I think those that want to should be allowed to organize a prayer meeting, gathering, etc. At my school we had a prayer meeting every morning for everyone who wanted to join in, and let me tell you, it had a very positive effect on the school with a number of things improving almost immediately. If this makes non-believers uncomfortable, well then, they should remeber that those who want to pray have a right to do so (except of course, that everybody wants to deny them that right).

That's my contribution. Sorry if I intruded on something.

[LewsTherin]

Well, Zora, I agree with you there. You should not have a religion forced upon you. I'm a Christian and I'd hate that as well. But, if people pray in school, they're not forcing you to join them. They're simpy doing what they have a right to do. Now I know they probably don't have that right in the U.S. constitution, but in the South African one they do, so understand where I'm coming from. Prayer doesn't harm anyone, so I don't see why not.

(And your perception of prayer seems to the the wrong one. It's not a request for God to pull a rabbit out of the hat; you know, perform a magic trick so that you don't have to work. That's not what prayer is about. It's simply a way of talking to God.)

[Lady Greyjoy]

However Lews,

The way i've seen it being used most definitly in the "rabbit-pulling" sense. Especially in schools : p

Anyhow, the point is America's constitution prohibits the establishment of any religion in a publicly funded enviorment, as Domina pointed out everyone is free to pray in the middle of a street, in your own home,in the grocery store...but school is not a place for worship it is a place of knowlege.

[DragonslayerX]

Well, it sounds as though you feel religion should be banned from school, which is a violation of the First Amendment.

Also, some people have gotten their Constitutional Rights confused...the Amendments to the Constitution protect you from the government, and not individuals. So, if you feel a Christian is forcing you to convert, or forcing you to pray, this may be wrong, but it is not illegal. As such, it would not be unconstitutional for a school to allow a moment of silence for you to do whatever you please, since this does not in any way establish religion - even if the majority of the class is Christian, and make you feel obligated to pray with them.

So, a moment of silence in no way violates the laws. However, I again stress that it should only be implemented through the local level, since they would best know the reactions.

[Lady Greyjoy]

No DragonslayerX,

I just think any sort of denominational prayer should be sponsered by the goverment...student are free to start prayer groups after school or during recess....or even between classes if they so desire...

I definatly agree on the local level thing, let individual states and counties, deside on the "moment of silence" issue....although i would protest by leaving the room if i was still in high school. Thankfully in my school there was no school-lead anything at the beginning of class...just annoucments...then class would start.

[zora_domina]

>>Well, it sounds as though you feel religion should be banned from school, which is a violation of the First Amendment.<<

Uh... Which first amendment is it that says religion is acceptable fare in a publically tax-afforded area? First amendment rights do not apply here - not when we're talking about "establishing" a moment of silence for whatever reason. That establishment is precisely opposite to the ideas expressed in other parts of the constitution.

If a school is *privately funded* then all bets are off. All functions of that school may be - like Hogwarts for instance - completely controlled by those providing the funding.

Since public schools are supported purely by taxpayer funds, and cannot *legally, according to the constitution* be given any preferential treatment based upon religious factors, there should not be prayer sanctioned by any public school.

This taxpayer money is exactly the reason why I will not give any of my money to say, Goodwill. Specifically, because Goodwill refuses to hire on the basis of gender-preference and religion. They do *not* help "gays, blacks, or people they don't like" (this from someone who used to work for them, an aquaintance of mine) and it's their perrogative to do so. But I don't have to buy into it or give them any of my hard earned money.

But since I do have to give public schools my money via taxation, my voice - along with all the other tax payers in my district - DO have a choice in the matter of what things can and cannot be done in a school that is funded solely by their money.

Lews - thank you for clarifying that you're in South Africa. I imagine it's quite different in any given society. Still, I prefer the one here where I get to choose whether I must listen to someone else's prayer to a deity I do not belive in. That was our founding father's choice to make plain in text - and since times have changed (and their religions are very very far from what is practiced today to say the least) I think that the establishment of "no religion" in public afforded places is a perfectly sound one. It prevents any one religion - in this case clearly Christianity/Catholocism - from dominating and potentially quelling someone else's views.

Got enough bees swarming now, I suspect... :p

zora

[DragonslayerX]

Well, if the First Amendment does not apply in public schools, then your entire argument has no ground. Because the "Establishment Clause", which is what says the government cannot establish a national religion, is in the First Amendment.

And, if you read the document, this is what it says:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

If you'll please take notice to the part about prohibiting free exercise...

Now, tell me how "establishing" a moment of silence is the same thing as establishing a religion, or giving one more leverage? I mean, you are atheist...Haven't you ever sat down quietly and gathered your own thoughts in your head, or held a moment of silence for a dead friend or something? Were you praying to some god? Are you not secure enough in your own beliefs to allow people to worship who they please, or pray how they please in front of you?

I mean, you seem to be saying that if someone prays in front of you, they are almost forcing you to convert...well, when you do something that would go against a religious person's views in front of them, do you do it to convert them to atheism? Of course not. So, why can't a Christian, or a Muslim,or a Jew be allowed to exercise their rights and pray in a public place, where you are clearly allowed to scorn their religion?

Now, all this being said, I totally agree that the tax-payers should have a say in this matter. Hence, the idea of allowing local governments, who are better aware (usually) of their citizens' desires, to decide whether or not a moment of silence is warranted.

[DarlingChild]

I am against prayer in public school. It would arouse too many controversies, and contrary to popular belief these days, not everyone is a christian and worships in the same way.

Not everyone even has a religion, like myself. I don't know about you, but I would be highly affronted if I were forced to 'pray' every day...

[anumati]

I'll have to go nay on this as well. We shouldn't force religion on people because some people just don't believe in the same things other people do. Clubs and organisations are fine though, like our school has a christian inter-school club and a muslim student club. They can do prayers and ceremonies and what not there without bothering anyone, I think that is the most efficient form of religion in a school. No one should be forced to do something they don't believe in.

[zora_domina]

>>Now, tell me how "establishing" a moment of silence is the same thing as establishing a religion, or giving one more leverage? I mean, you are atheist...Haven't you ever sat down quietly and gathered your own thoughts in your head, or held a moment of silence for a dead friend or something? Were you praying to some god? Are you not secure enough in your own beliefs to allow people to worship who they please, or pray how they please in front of you?<<

No, I don't "pray to a god" if I'm thinking about a dead friend, I'm thinking about how much I miss him or her, and trying to get on with my life. I'm more than secure: it's the people praying in schools who I doubt very much have a grip on their own. The need to "prove it" in front of people comes to mind.

The giving of a moment of any kind in a publically funded locale IS the establishment of and/or acceptance of A belief system if not a PARTICULAR system.

The first amendment doesn't cover schools - as we've learned many times before (in this thread, about clothing styles, offending slogans, behavior, etc) yet it's obviously contradictory to the establishment/acceptance of religion. However - the general and legal thought on the matter IS that publically funded locales must not encourage/sponsor private religious based 'things' because that's what we have "private" clubs and schools for. They are separate because they must be.

I believe that yes, the 1st amendment allows people to say what they will - I also know and believe that there is a time and place for everything, and preaching/praying is a religious pursuit that belongs in a church or home, not at a public school during public school classes.

Someone mentioned school christian clubs, etc, which is a very two-barbed thing for me. Yes it's a club for people with a common interest... in a public school. Again, it's something that they could just as easily do on their own time, or in a church setting which might be more condusive to their pursuit. You wouldn't put a secular evolution club in a private school, me'thinks. I'd be VERY surprised to see one, and if someone knows of one, I'd love to see their web site. :)

-zora

[Tarawyn]

As for the Christian school club - they have a Christian one, a Jewish one, an inter-religious one, maybe one or two more that I'm not aware of. Anyone can show up and it is not limited to members of the religion. Part of the club is religious, yes, but there's a cultural aspect that's pretty interesting. And again, I don't live in your average area, and with maybe 2 people from the school living in a neighborhood together, you couldn't form a club at a church, etc...so I'm not sure how this would work somewhere else, but with balance and so many secular clubs, I don't see a problem with it. It's a local thing.

[DragonslayerX]

Originally posted by zora_domina (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=303619#post303619))
Someone mentioned school christian clubs, etc, which is a very two-barbed thing for me. Yes it's a club for people with a common interest... in a public school. Again, it's something that they could just as easily do on their own time, or in a church setting which might be more condusive to their pursuit. You wouldn't put a secular evolution club in a private school, me'thinks. I'd be VERY surprised to see one, and if someone knows of one, I'd love to see their web site. :)


You hold something against religion that I could never dissuade you from, but here is one thing that I think would be extremely wrong. Not allowing a religious club, because it's religious? This is discrimination. Tell me how a group of people with a common interest getting together is so bad?

And, no, you most likely wouldn't find a secular evolution club in a private (religious) school. Why? Because how many people going to a religious school are secular? This would be like forming a branch of the KKK in an all black neighborhood.

Although, I'm sure religious schools have secular clubs, including a Science Club.

But, furthermore, why do people get involved in clubs? Anything someone can do in a club, they can do on their own time. Chess clubs shouldn't exist, because people can play chess at home...what room do we have in school for board games? Same with team sports. You're not there to play sports, so join a community league if you want to play sports.

I'm sure you would agree that not having any clubs would be a bad idea, so why discriminate against one group, andnot allow them to form an extra-curricular (meaning, not having to do with the school, so much as using the school's property) club for people with similar interests?

[Annerach]

Originally posted by DragonslayerX (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=302034#post302034))
Well, it sounds as though you feel religion should be banned from school, which is a violation of the First Amendment.

Also, some people have gotten their Constitutional Rights confused...the Amendments to the Constitution protect you from the government, and not individuals. So, if you feel a Christian is forcing you to convert, or forcing you to pray, this may be wrong, but it is not illegal. As such, it would not be unconstitutional for a school to allow a moment of silence for you to do whatever you please, since this does not in any way establish religion - even if the majority of the class is Christian, and make you feel obligated to pray with them.

So, a moment of silence in no way violates the laws. However, I again stress that it should only be implemented through the local level, since they would best know the reactions.

Yes but Having prayer in school violates the separation of church and state. School isn't the place for prayer. It's a place to learn and that's all. Prayer is only a dostraction to other students and keeps the student that's praying from focusing on school work. If you want to pray in school, go to a private religious school. Public school is just that; Public. Bu endorsing any type or religious or spiritual activity in a public place you're violating the constitution.:no:

[zora_domina]

>>And, no, you most likely wouldn't find a secular evolution club in a private (religious) school. Why? Because how many people going to a religious school are secular? This would be like forming a branch of the KKK in an all black neighborhood.<< and >>I'm sure you would agree that not having any clubs would be a bad idea, so why discriminate against one group, andnot allow them to form an extra-curricular (meaning, not having to do with the school, so much as using the school's property) club for people with similar interests?<<

First quote: That is precisely my point. By creating a dissent or "outside" non-public-serving venture (and by that I do not mean that "churches do not serve the public, but rather that the public tax dollars do not support private ventures such AS churches), a specific message is sent. A chess club? The message - we're smart enough to play this challenging game which any person from whatever religious background can join in on. A climbing club? - We're athletic. A religious based club? That's a CHURCH. The act of being in a public place is secular - not religious. Period.

I attended a very small private meeting of a religious group, one of my best friends is a pastor of it. It's a true Christian-belief 'church', which meets wherever... goth clubs, coffee houses, someone's house. But they must get permission from the owners of such places before they go there - because they do not wish to intrude upon a non-believer's space. I took up Ed's invite to at least sit in on them because they share so many of my own deeply held beliefs: that we ought to be equal, nice, help one another, etc etc. I don't know any of the songs of praise they sang, nor do I go for the "it's all for the glory of jesus/god/et al" thing. I believe what I do because it helps NOW. So I'm not a stranger to a "club" of religious folks. They have a church. Not a club - and in a school, a club for religion is a church. Unless it's discussing the theological theories of such-and-so, the background of when which particular portion of a religious group splintered off from it's main group... but that's frankly not what I'd expect to find in a club about religion in a high school.

I would not consider allowing a publically funded place like a school or even a public park have a meeting without some kind of arrangement financially to cover the supplies, locale, rent, etc. My tax dollars, as I've said, do not cover religious meetings. My individual donations, maybe.

I'd far rather see kids not grow up under a religion - it's my opinion that they'd be much better off taught "christian actions", rather than "christian beliefs" which often tend to infinge on the actions and beliefs of others around them. A moral compass is one thing. Structured belief (prayer) is another entirely.

-sorry so long winded...
zora

[DragonslayerX]

Originally posted by zora_domina (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=304234#post304234))
I'd far rather see kids not grow up under a religion - it's my opinion that they'd be much better off taught "christian actions", rather than "christian beliefs" which often tend to infinge on the actions and beliefs of others around them. A moral compass is one thing. Structured belief (prayer) is another entirely.


But, that's not your choice to make, anymore than it is the choice of a Christian to say you would be better off going to church every Sunday.

Now, is there anything wrong with a public service organization? One that say, collects money for the poor, cleans up parks and such, and reads to little children? Well, in my experience, any religious club (or church, if you so desire) in school is essentially a public service organization, which makes the motive for their work to be God. Does this make it a bad organization? No, I do not see that it does.

And as for a religious group being an "exclusive" thing, where you are made to feel inferior if you are not a member, the same could be said about sports, but with a better argument. How many people are picked on because they are not on a sports team, or a member of the cheerleading squad? Who is idolized in high schools? The football captain. It is a general concensus in school that if you are on a sports team, you will be more popular. So, would you feel alienated if you were in a lockerroom full of cheerleaders, and you weren't one? Most likely. So, why not ban sports from schools, since they obviously make the students uncomfortable.

The answer is because they also serve to benefit the school. Sports raise money for the school, and they give children something to do after school, to occupy their time. But a "church" can be just as beneficial. It teaches children to oppose hate (School clubs, if not the religion itself.), it gets kids involved in worthwhile porjects, and it tries to instill good morals in those students. Basically, school religious clubs emphasize the "Christian (or whatever other religion) actions" more than the beliefs. The beliefs you find in church.

[migo]

It's extremely interesting how this is a concern to americans because I never felt it as a problem with which students, parents or school are concerned about. They generally are willing to grow the scientific knowledge of the students and not replace their home as a place of learning and of personal formation.

I never had prayer in school and - in my not so humble opinion - it's completely nonsense to have mandatory prayer in school.
Now, it is also natural that some students would like to have prayer in school time. Those can form a group and pray. Or is this prohibited in the US?
Anyway, I actually never met anyone who wanted to pray in school; home or church are much better places for those who pray regularly.

[zora_domina]

>>But, that's not your choice to make, anymore than it is the choice of a Christian to say you would be better off going to church every Sunday.<<

Sure, except for the fact that I *have* been told, many times, by many different supposedly "good" people that I am evil and bad for not going to church and believing their way. Not just "in something," but *their* way. That's not what I call condusive to a healthy attitude toward other people's beliefs. I do feel that most organized religions could use a big boot to the head in terms of "what does your god teach you really?" ...

If I wanted to I would go to church. But I have chosen not to. And most people who visit me on sunday mornings with their books in hand somehow belive that I am "missing something" when I am not at church. I went to school and learned what I needed to. I didn't need to pray to get there. I'm not missing anything. I certainly didn't need a moment of silence, a prayer or a cheer from the cheerleading squad to pass any given test. People who do? Should study more. :p

Could I open up a math book and study it in church? I could - but I'd be glared at as though I were ignoring the subject at hand. A church is where you go to commune with god. Not to study math or english or whatnot. So... Why is prayer supposed to be acceptable in a school where one is meant to learn math, science, english et al?

The option of prayer is already open to people, in Church or the home. It is a well established concept there. It is not, in schools. When churches begin to instruct their students about evolution, other religious beliefs as doctrine rather than as "myth" or "heresy", I'd go for prayer in public schools, but until then, it's just as ridiculous as allowing or enforcing prayer in a school. It contradicts the point of having a secular school at all.

-zora

[Lady Greyjoy]

is prayer supposed to be acceptable in a school where one is meant to learn math, science, english et al?



Amen:rotfl:

[Goldie]

If anyone remembers my original post to this topic, you'll recall that I'm adamantly against prayer in public venues. This attitude isn't just based on what's in the First amendment, and my belief in that law, it's also based on personal experience.

I remember my 6th grade teacher. She was a very sweet older lady who insisted on having us take turns reading a bible verse each morning. I can tell you I was VERY uncomfortable when it was my turn, because first, it didn't seem right, and second, I didn't feel like I had the right to say I didn't want to participate. I went along with it, just like everyone else. I found the shortest one I could and said that, just to get it over with. (Don't ask me what it was, I don't remember - and don't want to.)

To this day, the embarrassment and discomfort I felt in the 6th grade are the same exact feelings I experience whenever I hear a prayer in a public setting.

I happen to work for the Federal government, and you would think I wouldn't have to put up with this any longer. You'd be wrong. Every time we have a going away party or some other celebration, someone decides the time is ripe for a Christian prayer.

Some people just don't understand how their behavior could possibly be offensive to anyone. After all, prayer is good, right? Even if it's force-fed, right? I can see it now - I accept another job, they give me a party, I walk out, and they're all stunned. But I'd do it in a heartbeat, I feel that strongly about this.

It's expected that there would be prayer in a religious school. That's the point. It's equally understandable that there would be prayer in the public schools where there is a state religion, as in England. But that's not the case in the US.

Our Constitution guarantees us that our public actions and private beliefs remain separate. There shouldn't be any intrusion of religion in public life. The First Amendment must not be thrown aside.

[DragonslayerX]

I'm sorry for your experience, but this is not at all the kind of prayer I advocate. I am talking about a silent, personal, and most importantly optional prayer. This is no more intrusive than if you wear an ugly green dress to work, that makes me uncomfortable. Yes, I may completely hate it, but does that give me the right to tell you not to wear it again (sorry if you really like green dresses)?

I also am not religious, but I just do not understand how something that would brighten up someone's day, and yet not hurt anyone, can be wrong. If it makes someone feel better about a test to pray before it, why shouldn't they be allowed?

[zora_domina]

Brightening a day could be done just as silently while already reading, in class, than to have a time alloted to it. Most kids aren't really reading their books anyway, right? :p

I feel exactly the same way, Goldie - my experience with my Jr High principal toting a bible around the school. Very strange sensation as though I was expected to already be indoctrinated into this cult that he espoused, yet... I voluntarily took myself out of Sunday school by the age of 5. I could not understand what any of the "information" was, and when I questioned it, the people "teaching" us simply babbled and told us to be quiet. Not the answer I was looking for. So... Why would I find an answer in prayer while I'm at school?

-zora

[whizbang121]

I'm against it. Not an atheist at all, but I think that praying is something to do at home or in a house of worship. People can form prayer groups in many ways and places, but but I'm against public prayer in state funded or operated forums such as a public schools. This can only lead to pitting one religion against another causing problems like we see in Northern Ireland and around the world when one religion or denomination decides that they are right, they have a mandate from God, and everyone else will just have to do things their way, or else. It happens all the time. Religion seems to be a major cause of conflict in the world.
Keep it private, in your mind and heart.

[AvidSkyRise]

I think that to make everyone equal that you must put them on an equal plane and not everyone would pray, how are the kids who do not believe supposed to feel when someone else is praying. It might make them feel like they had done something wrong maybe. I wouldn't like that. But I also wouldn't like my right to prayer being taken away either. It's a very very complicated issue and I think that the best thing for right now until someone has a better idea is to just not do it. Anyone who wants to can pray anytime of the day.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

Originally posted by FoolOnTheHill (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=295566#post295566))
I'm all for the complete separation of church and state.

Also, if we did have a prayer time in school, and I started to pray, I am positive that I would be told to stop or go somewhere else to do it. Not all prayer is quiet or silent. As a Buddhist, I pray by chanting these words over and over. And I can't do it silently. I wouldn't want to disturb the Christians, but at the same time it would be unfair if they could pray and I couldn't. Yep. That's my 2 cents.

Exactly. I think the notion that prayer can be something spontaneous and silent favors certain religions more heavily than others. My upbringing taught me to view prayer as highly ritualized, and something primarily done aloud in the presence of a community. Even if I felt it was appropriate or necessary, a silent moment for prayer wouldn't allow me the opportunity to pray in the manner I chose.

[AvidSkyRise]

Exactly Rowena and Fool, everyone would be ostracized for the way they prayed then and it wouldn't work and then they'd have to think of something ELSE...I think that beliefs should be a private thing until you find someone who wants to listen and won't be hurtful because of how you feel or what you believe in. Until we can find that day we should gaurd our faiths well

[Nickel]

Since I come from a region of older citizens, this topic comes up alot, at one time I asked a few of them what religion should the prayer be taken from, and every single one of them answered me with the idea that it should be a Catholic prayer. (on another note that is this area's most popular religion). When I brought up the fact that there are people who aren't Catholic they didn't want to hear it. They also didn't want their familes to be subjected to prayers of other religions, so needless to say it was an interesting conversation.

[zora_domina]

That's a very brave thing to have done, Nickel - I'm surprised honestly, that you got the word "conversation" out of the whole thing.

In a nutshell, that's the problem about prayer in public schools or places. No one group should be dominant and by allowing *a* prayer, *whose* prayer of course is the issue. Since a public school is not a house of worship, one would assume that many different private denominations would be placed together. Kids should be taught how much the same they are, before they learn the differences - even in their religions.

And yes - I agree about the prior comment about N. Ireland, it all comes down to which religion's followers prays loudest. And in heaven, listening over the bombs, that's kind of difficult I would imagine...

-zora

[Pucko]

at Catholic (or some other religion) private school, they should have prayer if it is part of their belief. in public school they should definetaly not have prayer, but if people want to pray they should be allowed to do so. America is the land of the free, and that includes freedom of religion. nobody should ever be forced to pray or forced not to pray.

[Annerach]

If you can pray silently and not let on that your doing it, Fine. When you drag other people into it, it's unconstitutional.

[Imperio! (Crucio!)]

I feel that children should benifit from religious experiences. but most have already decided whether they are thiest, athiest or agnostic. i then must feel that prayer in school is optional and if you dont want to take part in the prayer then you dont have to.

[Laura Patil]

I go to a Catholic school where we pray every morning (and at the beginning of every class, then again at the end of the day...) but I don't believe public schools should make their students pray.

They have to respect the religious background of everyone. I think that minute of silence thing is pretty good. You're not being forced to pray. Christians, Muslims, Hindus, etc should all be able to pray their own way. If the student doesn't want to pray, that's fine. They can just read a book or daydream.

[nfh_aftran]

quote:
Originally posted by zora_domina (original post)
Someone mentioned school christian clubs, etc, which is a very two-barbed thing for me. Yes it's a club for people with a common interest... in a public school. Again, it's something that they could just as easily do on their own time, or in a church setting which might be more condusive to their pursuit. You wouldn't put a secular evolution club in a private school, me'thinks. I'd be VERY surprised to see one, and if someone knows of one, I'd love to see their web site.



You hold something against religion that I could never dissuade you from, but here is one thing that I think would be extremely wrong. Not allowing a religious club, because it's religious? This is discrimination. Tell me how a group of people with a common interest getting together is so bad?

And, no, you most likely wouldn't find a secular evolution club in a private (religious) school. Why? Because how many people going to a religious school are secular? This would be like forming a branch of the KKK in an all black neighborhood.

Although, I'm sure religious schools have secular clubs, including a Science Club.

But, furthermore, why do people get involved in clubs? Anything someone can do in a club, they can do on their own time. Chess clubs shouldn't exist, because people can play chess at home...what room do we have in school for board games? Same with team sports. You're not there to play sports, so join a community league if you want to play sports.

I'm sure you would agree that not having any clubs would be a bad idea, so why discriminate against one group, andnot allow them to form an extra-curricular (meaning, not having to do with the school, so much as using the school's property) club for people with similar interests?


Hmmm.....I think that having a Christian club is perfectly fine, as long as it's a club for people with interest in Christianity, and it's not just for Christians.

Forming a branch of the KKK in an all-black neighborhood? Drangonslayerx, it seems you don't agree with Darwin whatsoever.(Sorry if I offend you by saying this) Interesting analogy you make.....

It would be wrong to have a prayer, and to force everyone to pray that particular prayer. A better thing to do would be to give children some free time in which they may pray, or they may study. It would be fair to theists, atheists, and agnostic children.

[majo]

I went to a Catholic high school. There was prayer every morning over the intercom, mass about once a month and liturgies at various times throughout the year. It was also required that each student take a Christian Ethics class every year.
There were quite a few non-Catholics at the school as well. They were required to be respectful during prayer time, attend all liturgies and masses, and take Christian Ethics as well. It was understood that as they made the choice to attend the school, they had to follow these rules as well. I never heard any complaints about it. Most people saw liturgies as a way of getting out of class. No-one was forced to pray, they just had to be respectful when others were.

I don't think there should be official prayer in public schools. Like others have said before, it is impossible to come up with a prayer that will make everyone happy. However, if a group of like-minded students wanted to get together to pray during lunch or recess or after school, they should be allowed to.

I agree with nfh_aftran, that if religious clubs are formed, they should be open to people of the religion, but also those with an interest in the religion. At my university right now, there are 3 faith clubs: Catholic Christian Outreach, Intervarsity Christian Fellowship and the Muslim Students Association. All three hold events which are open to anyone, but also provide a place for poeple of the same faith to meet and get to know each other.
This is very likely a different situation because it is at a university, not a school, and people here can start clubs about pretty much anything they want, but the point I'm trying to make is that faith-based clubs have just as much right to be as do science or sports or any other clubs.

[thethirdman]

Nay! However I have no problem with allowing students reflection time to pray silently, think or simply space out.

[Yurika Star]

I have a problem with praying in public school and schools in general. Unles they are strict churchy schools then nay. The people there may not wish to go there but are forced and have beleifs forced on them. You have churches, use them. Do it privately if you wish, but dont inflict your beleifs of prayer to god and such on every one.

Speaking from the fact i had to go to a catholic school and am a strong athiest-agnostic. Also having to be forced to go to church for the early part of my life when i still had strong athiest-agnostic feelings.

I feel its bad forcing any one to go to church, pray and such against there will. Expecialy with the whole 'god is every where' point. High lighted so well by Mr. Simpson in The Simpsons when he refuses to go to church. Going off track here anyway.

Nay to praying in school.

[Dansgirl]

When I was at school, we had no option whether to pray or not. I do not believe in Christianity or any faith. We also had to sing hyms as well. People like myself used to change the religious words to different ones (not rude of offensive). I don't know why, we just felt a bit rebelious. (i was 7-11).

[Koki]

I think that if a group of students want to pray and have a prayar gruop they should be allowed to to so, as long as they are not forcing others to pray or believe as they do. It should be a choice, if somebody wants to pray thats fine just don't force it upon others or the entire school, you know.
I am not really for or against but i say just give people a choice.

[vickygirl4]

I am against prayer in school. If a group of students decided to set up a prayer group before school, during lunch, etc. that's ok, because then students aren't pressured into joining. But having mandatory prayer or "silent time" is unconstitutional. It goes against the freedom of religion. Even if students don't have to pray during this "silent time" most would probably feel like they have to pray so as not to seem weird or stand out. This would make students feel uncomfortable and might go against their personal beliefs.

[Bhodi]

And, I would also like to add that in no way is "athiesm" a religion. It does not follow any doctrine whatsoever, it is far more of a personal, usually educated, decision to opt out of a situation that one does not believe in supporting. Therefore - athiesm cannot be promoted or denied by our freedom of speech amendment. Agnosticism perhaps is what was meant - but athiesm simply denies any and all possibility, and needs no moment of silence or prayer to enact a miracle.

Surely, you believe in something... Don't you, Zora? The scientific method perhaps? Mathematical logic? I think the simple point is that even these belief systems require a fair measure of faith in the assumptions that form their foundations...

[praisequeenfreddie]

If you go to a religous school then be prepared to pray. I went to lutheran school but I am not religous. I believe in God, just not religion. I had no problem praying at school. Its lutheran, so they pray. I do not think it is right to make people pray at a non-religous school. Most people attend those schools for a reason, and its not just for education purposes.

[Fairydust]

Nay, prayer in school should not happen because there are many students that aren't christians or what not. It would just be plain offensive if someone was made to pray to God when they don't believe in him.

[The Revenant]

I often prayed for school to burn up in a horrid fire, but God never answered my prayers, therefore I did what Christianity teaches, I burnt the school down myself, asked for forgiveness and hey presto, I'm clear of any wrong-doing. It's like the ultimate get-of-jail-free card :D

[Amadeus]

Well, if it is a Catholic/Christian school, there should be prayers and services, if possible... I personally have attended Catholic schools for 5 years, and am a Christian. I did not have anything against the prayers and services performed during the school hours... But if it is a public school, I am against it, since I believe all those whose religion is not Christian, they should not be forced to do something they don't believe in. If I were them and was forced to practise Christian in schools I attended, I would feel insulted and ignored. I think everyone, whether they are Christian, Jewish, Muslim or Buddhist, they deserve equal respects for their religion.

[GonzoBean]

I agree w/ lleugenell. If you're attending a school where everyone shares the same religion, than yay...but public schools and prayers? Nay.

[Tane]

I think it should be a matter of chooses for everyone concerned. I do not believe anyone should be forced to pray at school if they do not want to, even if they are only children they still should be given the right to choose.

[Auror Williamson]

I think that prayer in school is completely fine.

As long as the students are not being forced to pray, prayer should be allowed.

If your are athiest, agnostic, buddhist, or church of madeupchurchlikesomepeopleliketomakeupreligions, then don't pray along with us. No one is forcing you.



Sorry about such a short reply, but my answer is rather short.

[OrbitingElle]

I agree with what a lot of you have been saying in this thread. Prayer has absolutely no place in public schools, other than optional extra curricular activities. If a parent feels strongly enough that their child should be praying while they learn, they've got to cough up the money for a religious school.

It used to bug me to no end that "one nation under God" was recited every morning. I can't believe it took as long as it did for someone to realize how inappropriate it was. I'm glad it's finally been removed from the pledge of allegiance.

[Auror Williamson]

I'm glad it's finally been removed from the pledge of allegiance.

Actually, it has not been taken out of the pledge. The guy in Colorado and the other one in California took it to court. The 9th Circuit Court said that that God was unconstitutional. I think it may have been overturned...in any account, God has not been removed. We still say it every day in class.

[hesdead-dealwithit]

It has not yet been overturned, as the Supreme Court will take the case. (If it didn't take the case, the decision would stand and the words "under God" would be removed in the seven or eight state region that the lower court includes.)

[mina]

In my high school choir, our director one year decided to do religious(Christian) songs for the holiday concert. When a few students protested, our director said that he could legally make us sing whatever he chose as long as it was not profane. The students were given a couple of days detention. I never quite understood, because they were simply standing up (peacefully, without saying anything at all to warrant any detention, let alone several days) for those in choir of varying religions. I quit choir that year.

That said, no, I don't ever want to see mandatory prayer in schools. As most everyone else in here has said, separate extra-curiccular clubs are fine, as no one is forced into joining them.

[Picko]

Prayer doesn't belong in public schools and ultimately is just a breeding ground for trouble. Religious is a contencious issue at the best of times, forced prayer or heavily encouraged prayer in schools is ridiculous.

[DrummerboyDT]

Why pray if you don't believe in a god? I know that Christians are trying to make the schools a more moral place to be, but forcing people to pray is meaningless to non-believers and isn't a good advertisement for Christians.

[Morgoth]

Prayer in schools should be a choice and will hardly cause too many problems if either side stopped pushing against the other so extremely. Despite my lack of religious beliefs, I think schools should allow students to partake in prayer time if they so wish but clearly state that religious freedom works both ways and that non-practising or believing students should not be harassed for their own views.

[Auror Williamson]

Just as long as the students are given the choice to pray, and are not being forced, then I have no problems.


Has anyone ever heard of an instance where Bibles were banned from school?

[Wab]

I agree with Christians being allowed to pray if pagans are allowed to sacrifice burnt offerings.

[OrbitingElle]

In my high school choir, our director one year decided to do religious(Christian) songs for the holiday concert. When a few students protested, our director said that he could legally make us sing whatever he chose as long as it was not profane. The students were given a couple of days detention. I never quite understood, because they were simply standing up (peacefully, without saying anything at all to warrant any detention, let alone several days) for those in choir of varying religions. I quit choir that year.

I can see how maybe you could force the students to sing a song as long as you weren't endorsing what the song said... but detention for merely objecting is uncalled for.

In history classes, we were taught a little about the history of Christianity, but we weren't taught that it was true or untrue. My school thankfully did a good job of staying within the boundaries there.

[Confessor]

I agree with Christians being allowed to pray if pagans are allowed to sacrifice burnt offerings.


There's a degenerate statement if I ever heard one.

[DrummerboyDT]

Forced prayer in schools is like the Church of England persecuting those who were rejected the teachings of that church back in the 1500's. If you sat down and read the Bible, you will notice that God gave us all a choice whether or not to worship or believe in Him. He didn't force people to. So why should schools force people who don't believe in God to pray?

[daniel4hp]

In history classes, we were taught a little about the history of Christianity, but we weren't taught that it was true or untrue. My school thankfully did a good job of staying within the boundaries there.
Same here. My history teacher is quite interested in religion, and we spend quite a bit of time learning about the history of different religions and what they teach. Currently we are studying the 1054 schism of the Christian church. However, my teacher is very careful to stress that he is not saying what's true and what isn't, and that we can believe whatever we want -- he is just giving us the facts. I enjoy it.


As for prayer in schools, I feel teacher-led prayer, except in clubs or organizations aimed at religious students, is totally uncalled for. Even if students aren't forced to pray along, having a teacher lead prayer makes a statement that the school endorses that religion, and in a country with separation of church and state, that is totally uncalled for. Students have every right to pray silently by themselves, but having official prayer times, teacher-led prayer, etc. is innappropriate in public schools. Private schools can do what they want, but in public schools, it is not needed.

[Animagi rock!]

I don't think public schools should have prayers. Here in europe, where most people are secular, you'd probably get made fun of for praying. In other countries you'd get discriminated aganst for not praying. It just causes a lot of tension over something that can just as well be done in your free time. I know how I felt when I lived in the USA and I was the only one not pledging allegiance to the flag. I got quite a few sideway glances and I didn't like it. It would be similar with prayers.

[Auror Williamson]

I agree with Christians being allowed to pray if pagans are allowed to sacrifice burnt offerings.

And I suppose school districts are supposed to shell out a couple of hundred thousand dollars for offering alters? Maybe a special room for the offerings? A pen for livestock offerings? I suppose the burnt livestock could be used in the cafeterias during lunch...

[Wab]

A crated chicken doesn't take up much room and a small altar could be built by the student in shop.

Why should Christians be the only allowed to worship?

[Hagrid442]

Constitutionally, a public school, in my mind at least, can allow a moment of silence or something to that effect. As long as they don't endorse a specific religion, there's nothing wrong with it. Practically, I am not sure how they'll go about implementing it. I'm sure many, like me, would just doodle, or read something during that moment of silence. Well, maybe not all the time in my case. :) I wouldn't pray per se`... just give my consideration to troops in Iraq and the like.

[Magda Quadle]

I don't mind the moment of silence thing... But even as a devout Christian I don't want prayer to be put back in schools in this day and age.

Before I'm privately mailed and flamed let me explain the above statement. There are as many different kinds of religions in this world as their are people groups. There is nothing that prevents a different religion from becoming prominent in our country. I certainly don't want some one to force my child to pray to Allah, or Budda, or the tree in the back yard, even if my child doesn't mean it. There is no going back on this ruling. If you want your child to pray, teach prayer in the home. If you teach them well enough, and if they learn the lessons prayer teaches, they will pray where ever they are regarless of laws, peers, and settings.

Mags

[Hagrid442]

Why would you be flamed?? I think that's a very astute and thoughtful response. :)

[DsX Phoenix]

My personal view is that only moments of silence should be allowed, and whether or not those are allowed should be decided upon by local school boards.

My main concern with any kind of prayer time is that, in reality, most prayer time allowed really is just for Christians. Muslims are supposed to kneal on a carpet in order to pray, and most schools would most likely deem that as a disruption of class, even if it is during the "moment of silence" (my school had a moment of silence in the mornings, and the rules were, you had to sit in your seat silently, and pray if you wanted.)

[Confessor]

I'm starting to think every single one of you has the "if that one kid goes into a corner and prays, I'm gonna kick the tar out of him" mentality.

[OrbitingElle]

I'm starting to think every single one of you has the "if that one kid goes into a corner and prays, I'm gonna kick the tar out of him" mentality.

From what I hear, kids don't need much of an excuse to kick the tar out of somebody...

But as for the "no praying or I'll beat you up" mentality-- Of course I can only speak from my own experience, but I had no problem with the kid who prayed in the corner or said grace before lunch. The kid I had the problem with was the one who got mad when I wouldnt donate my time to help his after-school christian club and then prayed for me afterward like I was selfish and needed to be cured. Or the five kids who got out of doing a book report in senior English class because the main character in the book we were assigned to read took the lord's name in vain.

Most of the religious students at my school were great and didn't bother anyone. To them, I salute. It's the few that thought they were better than me and threw it in my face that make me angry.

I suspect that everyone in this thread who you get a negative impression from are like me. They are vocal about the negative things because they're upset, but keep quiet about the positive things. I just like to gripe :)

[thinkpink38]

I find no purpose of having prayer in schools, whats it suppose to do, make things better? People say that taking god out of schools is destroying America, well I say, how? Basically, If people insists that everyone join in a prayer in school, I believe they are stepping on the rights of other US citizens who do not share the same beliefs.

[LewsTherin]

I agree that people should not be forced to pray. I'm a Christian and even I don't like being forced to pray. However, it seems that non-believers are trying to impose themselves on people who do want to pray. Basically, it seems to be a case of; "You can pray if you want, just do it where we can't see you." Now I can understand that, but I think that people should be allowed to organize a prayer group if they wish. If they get the permission of the school, then I see no problem with it. If non-believers don't like it and want to stop it, are they not then stepping on the right of those who want to pray? I thought America was supposed to the land of "Freedom of choice."

As for prayer protectng schools. Just compare what schools were like before prayer was banned, to how they are now.

[DsX Phoenix]

I agree that people should not be forced to pray. I'm a Christian and even I don't like being forced to pray. However, it seems that non-believers are trying to impose themselves on people who do want to pray. Basically, it seems to be a case of; "You can pray if you want, just do it where we can't see you." Now I can understand that, but I think that people should be allowed to organize a prayer group if they wish. If they get the permission of the school, then I see no problem with it. If non-believers don't like it and want to stop it, are they not then stepping on the right of those who want to pray? I thought America was supposed to the land of "Freedom of choice."

As for prayer protectng schools. Just compare what schools were like before prayer was banned, to how they are now.

You could also take into account that teachers were allowed to spank misbehaving students, or that child abuse laws were a joke, so if your dad wanted to give you a black eye for talking back to a teacher, then hey, you deserved it.

Anyways, I believe prayer groups are great. It gives kids with a common interest a chance to interact in a friendly environment. To me, any afterschool activity is a wonderful thing. However, the other side of this coin happens quite often, as well. For example, when my step-mother (disgustingly Conservative-Christian type) found out that there was a "gay" club at my old high school now, she became upset and said, "That's wrong. Schools shouldn't be condoning that."

I think most people on here who are so adamently against prayer in school are so because we have all witnessed one or more Christians who feel that the government should cater to Christians, because they are the plurality in this nation. To a lot of people, this is just another example of how schools should be supporting Christian beliefs. And I know most Christians are not like this, but, to quote a lot of Conservatives, the loud minority are hurting the silent majority.

[star22]

I think that no one should be forced to, but at the same time, no one should be forced not to.

All to often today, the first ammendment is used to justify not allowing people to practice their religion. That actually goes against it. If people want to pray, let them.

[Nelran]

The problem with letting this sort of thing in schools is just where do you draw the line on what is an infrigment of personal rights and what is an expression of personal beliefs. For example, if a kid prays for the non-Christian in his class to meet Christ and is open about that decleration, what rights does that infringe? If an atheist kid where's a t-shirt saying he's an atheist is that overly expressing a personal belief? There's far too much over-sensitive reactionary people for allowing prayer in schools, because you will get those anti-prayer people who will go to full lengths to make sure the world knows their beliefs!

[Magda Quadle]

I'm starting to think every single one of you has the "if that one kid goes into a corner and prays, I'm gonna kick the tar out of him" mentality.


Not true. I was the kid in the corner praying when others weren't. Of course I'm out of school now and have been for a while, so I'm not sure how kids view it these days.

If a kid wants to pray, GREAT!! It is an internal thing that can be done anywhere, anytime, regardless of the rules. (I know that muslims are supposed to kneel, but will Allah really not hear you if you do not, or are unable? Just a question since I'm Christian.)

Mags

[OrbitingElle]

The problem with letting this sort of thing in schools is just where do you draw the line on what is an infrigment of personal rights and what is an expression of personal beliefs. For example, if a kid prays for the non-Christian in his class to meet Christ and is open about that decleration, what rights does that infringe? If an atheist kid where's a t-shirt saying he's an atheist is that overly expressing a personal belief? There's far too much over-sensitive reactionary people for allowing prayer in schools, because you will get those anti-prayer people who will go to full lengths to make sure the world knows their beliefs!

I think an atheist wearing a shirt expressing his beliefs or a Christian wearing a religious shirt is no different than wearing a shirt for a band you like. It would be infringing upon a student's rights to prevent them from wearing it unless it was profane.

[Auror77]

I strongly believe prayer in school should be prohibited. People have to understand we live in a different world now. Some things people did back then were okay because no one really took offense to it, but now with all these religions and ideals that are spreading to this world, it just isn't right. What you might do that's part of your religion might offend someone of a different religion or group. There is no reason why prayer cannot be performed outside school, like in your household or such. So basically, save prayer for your outside-school life, not in the classroom.

[Confessor]

I strongly believe prayer in school should be prohibited. People have to understand we live in a different world now. Some things people did back then were okay because no one really took offense to it, but now with all these religions and ideals that are spreading to this world, it just isn't right. What you might do that's part of your religion might offend someone of a different religion or group. There is no reason why prayer cannot be performed outside school, like in your household or such. So basically, save prayer for your outside-school life, not in the classroom.


Jeeze. Yeah, and their offence offends me. Now who are we going to blame?

[Cynognathus]

In my opinion, praying has no place in public schools. If someone (or his parents) wants to pray, he can do so at home or attend a christian private school. It's kind of hypocrite in my opinion to ban girls from wearing scarves, but to allow praying and crucifixes. Allowing any religious signs only creates problems. Just take a look at the situation in France...

Anyway, at my school, in Austria, there is a cross in each classroom, you can take religion classes and the headmaster actually allowed some protestant fundamentalists to distribue Bibles in front of the school. (They were members of some group called the Gideons, anyone ever heard of them?) This doesn't mean anyone is particularly religious and no one would even consider praying in school. Actually most students and teachers are so opposed of the church, that I'm not sure that if I weren't an atheist anyway, I would dare to say that I believe in God.

[Dru Malfoy]

Well, I'm neither American nor British. In my country school prayers are obligatory - at least in elementary schools. The first lesson starts with a prayer. I always hated it because it meant nothing to me at all. There are so many kids with different religions (and atheists) who just cannot relate to a prayer and it's stealing their time to study as the prayers happened during the first lesson.

I think prayer and any kind of practicing their religion is their private business and should be done privately or within their religious community and not with people to whom it is meaningless. Even saying, they just don't have to participate, is wrong, if the prayer is said during a time when there should be a lesson in progress.

Schools could just offer the students who WANT to pray to come in early or stay on after classes. And there are always teachers who like praying with students and others who don't. But forcing it on anybody is wrong.

[FirefightingMuggle]

Look what I found on the back pages of the DoIMC.. I know that this was discussed to a fevered pitch during the American Elections thread's final incarnation, so I thought it would be fun if I dug it up for further debate.

Personally, I worry about prayer being allowed in public schools.
First and foremost, there are a lot of people in the US who are Christian and there are a lot of people who aren't. I worry that children who come from Non-Christian households would be singled out because they do not pray with the other kids. There are enough things that kids can be singled out for and picked on about. Religious issues don't need to be included in that list.
It would be wrong for prayer to be of only one religion. Yet, I can't imagine having a school have prayer for each individual religion. It would take too long. First we pray something Christian, then something Jewish, then something Muslim, then something Buddhist, then everyone join us around the tree for a Pagan ritual, then we'll go back inside for Hindu prayer, then it's off to Shinto, then especially for the atheists, let's all acknowledge that there is no higher power and ask our minds to remain strong and alert through the day....and I know there are hundreds of other religions that I missed there, but you get the point.

That last rant there, also goes to the questions of "Whose prayer" "What prayer" and "Which religion?" If there are more Catholics will we be praying the rosary? If this is predominatly Muslim area will we have to bring prayer rugs to school? Is there any prayer that doesn't tick off any religion? Would it just be possible for the pre-lunch prayer to be something like "rub a dub dub thanks for the grub." Would even that offend someone?

In my opinion, there are private and religious based schools for this very reason. If someone wishes for their child to have faith based education, then the need to send their child to a faith based school. In Pennsylvania I know for a fact that if you school district does not offer something that you want your kids to have in their education, you can move them to another school that does have those things, and the district will bus them there. (Agriculture Education is a big one in my district, we don't offer it, but a neighboring district does. Quite a few kids are bussed there to take the Ag program.) I personally wouldn't want my kids, when I have them, to have to go to a school where they have to pray to the God/Gods/Goddesses/Dieties that our family does not worship. Likewise, I don't think that Christian parents would want their kids praying to my Goddess. I also don't want my future children singled out because they do not pray with the rest of the class.
A minute of silence to begin the way is fine with me. Kids that want to pray can do so to themself. Kids who want to think about the world series can do that if they want to. It's personal and it doesn't intrude upon anyone else's faith or beliefs. I think that's the best way. Let people keep their religion personal when they are at a public school.

[Hagrid442]

Again, 110% FFM. :)

I think a moment of silence is a good idea, as long as it mollifies both sides. If the school or teacher start establishing a preferred religion, even if it's atheism, then it could all just fall apart.

It's a complex issue, really, but I see no reason why students shouldn't be allowed to wear their beliefs on their sleeves.

[genesis]

Public schools in the U.S. cannot show preference to any religion because it is unconstitutional. Teacher led school prayer was banned many years ago. It is perfectly alright for student led prayer to occur. If students want to get together and have a big group prayer in the cafeteria or go around the tree, it is fine. I took a World Religions class at a public high school. During the first week of class, we went over what the teacher can and cannot do. The teacher cannot be partial to any religion, etc. I would not have a problem with a moment of silence, and all would be allowed to do whatever he or she desires during that period. My high school regularly had moments of silence during traumatic periods and no one complained.

[busy91]

I do not and never did agree with prayer in public school. It would be egocentric to think that everyone in America has a Judo-Christian homelife. Children can be impressionable and I can see them becoming conflicted if at home they practice one 'religion' and in school are made to take part in the ritual of another.

I view moment of silence as time for reflection as opposed to time for prayer. If a student wants to pray during that time they can, but others can just think about the situation or send positive thoughts.

[Kaonashi]

Prayer in school....no.

Moment of silence where you can choose to either pray to the deity of your choice or reflect.....yes.

[Lizzie London]

In our school we have assembly twice a week and then chapel. in assembly we have to sing two hyms followed by a prayer (either the school prayer or The Lords Prayer). In chapel we have a Bible reading and then we have then we have two hyms followed by a prayer. What really gets me is that girls that i know are say Jewish and Buhhidists and so on and they still have to sing the United Church Hyms and prayers i think that it should not be because it is basicly against thier religeon

[Kobila]

No I dont think that a moment of silence or prayer should be part of our childrens daily rituals. As far as Im concerned the two should never have anything to do with one another, just like government and religion. If a family wants their children to pray isnt there enough time before or after school for them to do that? Every miniute they are in class should be dedicated to teaching them facts not influencing there beliefs. Coming from personal experience, prayers in the class room do have an affect on you in some way, shape or form.
When I was in grade school they used to say a prayer after the daily anouncements and every time it would upset me. I always felt pressured to believe what every one else believed even though I didnt feel that way, So I say lets give religion a rest and see how far we get that way.

[Gangrel]

I am in favor of student led prayers in school, and in favor of moments of silence. I do understand why it isn't allowed though, so that's why my children only attend private parochial schools.

[FirefightingMuggle]

^ Thank you for understanding.

That's what I'm saying here. If you want your kids to have religious education, get them out of the public schools and send them to a school that offers religious based education. There are 6,000 people in my town, and we have two Private schools that offer religious based education. One is a Catholic School, the other is a Christian school. Parents who really feel that religion should be taught in school often opt to send their kids to these schools. I applaud them for that. They understand that public school are indeed that, public, and as such, can not teach or preach religion in the classroom.

Like I said, I have no problem with a moment of silence in the public school. Unless you are strictly opposed to silence, this shouldn't bother you. It gives every student and faculty member the oppertunity to have a private prayer if they so desire. Also, no one is going to knock your kid upside the head if they take a minute to pray silently before lunch, between classes, before a test, whenever. As long as they aren't doing it in a way that would be considered "preaching" to other kids, I have no problem with it. I'm all for silent reflection on divinity. I just don't want thoughts on the divine broadcast through the schools.

[LunaGoldstein]

whats so complicated? A student should feel free to pray on their own (especially during finals week:) but it should not be a group or public school sanctioned thing. And all the prayer in school advocates want is Christian prayer of course, anything else would be un-American:p I'm sorry but you don't see any other religion out there advocating this. It's a non-issue.

Moments of silence are ok though. I mean a regularly schedualed "moment of silence" every day is kinda pushing it but when our school had one for Sep 11, it wasnt a big deal.

[michelle3654]

If students want to pray in school, then they have a right to do it. They shouldn't be pressured into it though.

[Ava]

I came from a fun Catholic gradeschool/highschool and prayer time is a part of a normal day. Other than schools such as those, I think prayer time shouldn't be mandatory. It's a way of respecting other people's beliefs.Many people are not comfortable with it so I guess they shouldn't show any preference to a specific religion/belief. I mean a person can pray anytime of the day, even in school without having to do it in an official class prayer time. One shouldn't feel pressured or uncomfortable in an environment where they spend a lot of time in. :)

[StephyJ_83]

As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in public schools. :rotfl:

[Norbertha]

In the school that I went to, we always had to sing a prayer before lunch. I viewed this as a cultural thing, and not a religious thing. However, now that I think about it, I think that children shouldn't be made to say prayers in school, because children have different religions, and you shouldn't be forces to pray to a God that you don't believe in. On the other hand, children should be allowed to say a prayer before lunch if they feel this is right. It just shouldn't be compulsory.

[cornish_pixies]

I used to go to a private school, which was incidentally also an Anglican school. We were made to go to chapel, sing hymns, listen to sermons, attend communion, and take religion lessons. I'm a Hindu, but none of this affected me negatively at all. In fact, I think that the sermons were actually helpful at times (they were not generally religion specific); and the hymn singing helped me and my exposure to other religions. Communion was optional, and though my religion class seemed a waste of time to me then - I never took it seriously - I can't say that it was a bad experience for me.

But the thing is that I didn't find it a negative experience at all. I believe prayer in any language is prayer, and even if you're atheist, it is still calming and helps bring yourself to an inner peace. My family also had a choice. There were plenty of other schools; public, and private, who didn't practice religion, and so as long as I had chosen to attend that school, I couldn't complain.

I'm not against prayer in schools at all.

[xXillusion]

Nay Nay Nay

[Kimmetje]

I must say nay as school is already complicated enough as it is. We do have like Religion class once a week though we don't do like praying and stuff. We do have like three times a year some weird thing when we have to pray. I personally think it's a waste of time so no (I'm not trying to be mean to all the people who do say yay).

[BrAinPaiNt]

NO open prayer should be allowed in school IMO.

If they want to have a moment of silence everyday and let kids use that time to pray under their breaths that is no problem because it would not be putting anyone of another religion out...it would just be a moment of silence.

But think about this...why does a kid need to pray in school every morning anyways (unless they are in a religious school)?
Can they just not pray at home every morning before coming to school? :cool:

[Alci]

I used to go to a private school, which was incidentally also an Anglican school. We were made to go to chapel, sing hymns, listen to sermons, attend communion, and take religion lessons. I'm a Hindu, but none of this affected me negatively at all.This reflects my experience as well. I'm an atheist but can't say I had any fundermental objection to attending school chapel; if I'm honest I quite enjoyed the hymns and spent many years in various choirs. I certainly wasn't forced to pray and under those terms I really don't see a huge problem with religion in schools. In most, though not all, countries the predominant religion is a core part of the culture. Vast swathes of normal speech uses biblical & Shakespearean references, yet we do this without even thinking about it. To avoid and ignore that cultural aspect due to a misguided assumption that kids may be brainwashed in schools seems to invite a schism.

[xXillusion]

that's against human natural rights, as stated in the Bill of Rights...
well, you know it.
Our school rocks. We don't do any of that stuff except for the pledge, but who cares. I sit at my desk when they do it..

[arcanus]

Well, we had prayed in my school (since Austria is mainly catholic, which is the official religion), which was mostly very boring, because it was nothing individual, we just had to chant our school's prayer. I don't believe in praying just for the sake of it, I think that it is something very personal and intimate, your personal connection to god. That's why I think prayer's in school are not necessary at all, if you pray for yourself and everybody does so once in a while.

[Shadow2389565]

I personally dislike the way religion is handled in the U.S. I know the main religion is Christianity but there are people of different religion. Like my parents are of two different religions, Jewish and Christian. I don't go to church nor temple. Although I celebrate Chanukah and Christmas. So around that time, in school, the some nosy teacher usually asks the dreaded question. "Who celebrates something other than Christmas this ime of yeear" It's not like I am embarrassed of being Jewish, its that I am embarrassed that everybody stares at me like I have 10 heads. I sometimes go to church with my friends, it's cool, but I would hate it if they did it in school....Oh! I would hate it. Also a few days ago in school my homeroom took a survey, basically taking a survey of who's in a gang/smokes/does anything like that. One question that REALY got me angry was "How often do you go to church" I answered truthfully as in Never. (The coices were:everysunday;atleast1amonth;atleast1ayear;never. That really got me ANGRY! They think that if you don't go to church your a bad person?! I strongly don't agree with prayers being said in a public school. Isn't that what private schools are for? Yes they are extra money, but if parents really want their kids to learn about their religion in school, then I guess its worth theextra money.

[hilkaryIC]

There was a quote from The West Wing that I always found summed up this issue. Toby says that no school prayer is not about the goverment protecting seperation of church and state it is about protecting the students that don't follow the religion of choice.

I, personally, do have a problem with moments of silence. I don't think I have a case per say, to doing away with it. Growing up in a family where there was no spirtual influence at all, I was un-comfortable durring these moments when those around me found meaning.

[BloodyBlackRose]

Yay in my opinion.
I think that praying is an extremely important thing to do and I do it every night before I go to sleep. It's very important for your soul. I think that we all basically pray to the same God and no matter how you pray it's going to the same loving God.

[daniel4hp]

What about people who don't believe in any god? Should they have to pray to a God whom they do not believe in? The First Ammendment in the US says that government should not establish a religion. Even if that religion is as vague as monotheism or even simply theism, by having teacher/administration-led prayer in government schools to any deity establishes a religion and thereby infringes on the rights of people who do not believe in the deity being prayed to.

[LeeJordanfan]

One question that REALY got me angry was "How often do you go to church" I answered truthfully as in Never. (The coices were:everysunday;atleast1amonth;atleast1ayear;never. That really got me ANGRY! They think that if you don't go to church your a bad person?!.Not to mention the offense that people who go to Synagogue, Temple, Mosque, or even Catholics who don't go to have to go to church, but "go to Mass" would feel about this question. For Catholics you "go to Mass", and that's what's important. Just going to church isn't anything special here, the local community "goes to church" for bingo! So that might skew the Catholic results too.

[Sunfish McCaul]

I don't think there should be any recognition of religion in schools- why should there be? Schools belong to the government, and the government is not religious. It's more agnostic than anything else. I think that people can bring religion into schools within acceptable limits, like head scarves or skull caps. Christianity doesn't have anything like that though, and so many might complain that schools are favouring non-Christian religions. So long as that isn't actually true, it's okay. I think school libraries should keep the sacred texts of all religions available, for academic study and/or theological need. And loud T-shirts praising prophets (of any religion) or telling people to pray regularly (to any God) or telling people not to pray should be banned from schools. I think attire of this sort is grossly inappropriate in public schools.
People have prayed before in my school. There's a Christian-based charity group, and they may or may not pray at their meetings. I don't know. I'm a little uneasy about religious-based groups in schools, but I'm reluctantly okay with it. They don't appear to be hurting anyone at this point, and provide volunteers for food drives... And we need people who are willing to do that stuff. I'd feel a little more at ease if there were groups for other religions, but I live in a pretty white-bread Christian town, so nobody's tried to start one up yet.

[Molko]

If people are so adamant that religion (of any church) should be intertwined with education, even if it's only a matter of prayer in the morning, then they can go to a religious school. People shouldn't have to pray to a God they don't beleive in. In any case, if someone feels so strongly about praying everyday they can go to church/mass/synagogue etc afterschool.

[danfan4ever]

I do think prayer in school is okay. I don't think they should force anyone to but I think everyone should want to.

[hpfan_08]

Schools belong to the government, and the government is not religious.
The United Sates may not be religious anymore, but do not forget that our founders, came over here to escape religious persecution.

Also if you look at our money it says "In God We Trust" Money (http://www.rnw.nl/informarn/assets/images/in_god_we_trust.jpg) so you might as well just change that also.

[danfan4ever]

I think its all about bunch of bull **** that you can't pray in school.
Since so little of the population doesn't believe in God

[Dementor Dave]

Move to the Middle East and start enduring mandantory prayer to Allah five times a day. Perhaps the religious rights of others would make more sense, then.

[hpfan_08]

Move to the Middle East and start enduring mandantory prayer to Allah five times a day. Perhaps the religious rights of others would make more sense, then.
Thats not the point, the point is that a person should be allowed to pray anywhere, from driving to work to school.

You should be able to pray when ever and whereever you want.

[Dementor Dave]

I don't know what is like where you are, but here (and I am in the US), prayer is perfectly legal in school. Lead prayer, and staff organized prayer is disallowed. Roghts are not being removed, they are being protected. Because everyone does not want to pray.

[hpfan_08]

I don't know what is like where you are, but here (and I am in the US), prayer is perfectly legal in school. Lead prayer, and staff organized prayer is disallowed. Roghts are not being removed, they are being protected. Because everyone does not want to pray.
I am from America also (hence the alaska part in my location) but what i am saying is that you should be able to pray before classes at public schools, I know that prayer is legal, and it would be defy the Declaration of Independance to ban it. I am just saying that we should be able to lead prayer in classrooms in public schools.

[Molko]

If people have the right to lead prayer, should I demand that I have the right to lead the whole class in arobics or something before class? Sorry if that sounds offensive or something, I'm just trying to stress that you can't lead the whole class in something that not everyone is interested in which isn't directly benefitial to their education. On the other hand, arobics could be taught in a P.E class, as prayer could be taught in an religious education class.

[Dementor Dave]

I am from America also (hence the alaska part in my location) but what i am saying is that you should be able to pray before classes at public schools, I know that prayer is legal, and it would be defy the Declaration of Independance to ban it. I am just saying that we should be able to lead prayer in classrooms in public schools.

Nope. Should my child choose not to follow the path of Christianity, s/he will not be subjected to school lead prayer. Just as yours would not be forced to pray to Allah, or recite from Jewish prayer books.

[Chrysalis]

The school I go to is Catholic. We don't have institutionalized prayer. Instead, there is a lot of emphasis on soul searching and spirituality. We have a special 'Room of Silence'. There is a lit candle, and a lot of little notes to write messages on, for anyone who has anything to say. There is also an album in which all these messages from the past few years are stored. Anyone can come to this room and sit there during free hours, maybe pray, or just be silent.

This room is very popular with the students. Especially since in the past year two students died a lot of people, teachers and pupils and their parents, have found comfort here.

I think this place is a very good idea. It basically highlights the importance of spirituality but let's students decide for themselves in what way they want to come to themselves. I think more schools should take such initiatives, it honestly really helps.

[Sunfish McCaul]

Also if you look at our money it says "In God We Trust"
I'm in Canada. :cool: Our money has the name of the Queen on it, the word "Regina" and some of our bills have literary quotes on 'em. But nothing other than secular. Also, I suspect the British came to the land now known as Canada to claim more land, because they were greedy buggers back in those days and bent on world domination (or the mild, societally proper equivilent). I don't know it was different with you guys though.
Besides all that, government evolves. In the 18th century it was common to keep slaves and beat around women, and that's not cricket in this day and age. Not that I'm comparing school prayer to either of those despicable customs. I'm just pointing out that times do change, and the needs of society with it. I think I read somewhere that one of the Forefathers (might've been Jefferson) wanted the Declaration of Independence updated every decade or so to prevent it from getting outdated. It might very well be one of those urban myths, and is worth exploring for a soul less tired than I am right now. ;) I don't think there should be historical precedent for the issue of school prayer. What happened in the past is worth considering, yes, but it shouldn't dictate our choices. We need to look and see and make a judgement about what's good our societies today. I can see Americans taking a different path than Canadians on this issue. We're on a more liberal course right now.

[kallie]

Disclaimer : these are my thoughts and are meant to offend anyone else, that is not my intent.


No, prayer in public schools isn't right at all. It is illegal under the seperation of church and state rule. My family is not christian so my children should not have another religion pushed on them . If someone wants prayer in schools, that is what parochial schools are for.

[halfbreedlover]

A sign of respect for what, though? If it's held at the beginning of every school day, doesn't that diminish its importance unless it's connected to something else? And what's the most obvious way to imbue it with meaning? Religion. Not necessarily "Our Father who art in heaven," but even meditation carries with it a certain spiritual import.

On Sept. 12 2001, my school had a very very long moment of silence to honor those who died the day before. There was no religion attached to it at all, it was a sign of respect for those who died. There was no prayer, it was just for us to reflect. I don't see what is wrong with that.

But specifically setting aside a moment implies, at least to me, that there's something definite on which they're supposed to be concentrating. And a student who doesn't choose to concentrate, or, at the opposite end of the spectrum, mutters something under his breath, could be in for some criticism from his peers.

Obviously there's something definite, like, for instance, Sept. 11. I can't imagine anyone who wouldn't be affected by that even if they didn't lose someone. It was inherently a collective experience for all Americans and therefore I don't understand why someone should have to take it on an individual level.

As for formalized, religious prayer, definitely not since that is not something shared by everyone and should not be imposed on those who do not believe in it.

[aggroskater]

Just feel like quoting a little something here, off of a bumper sticker I once read in regards to prayer in school:

As long as there are tests, there will be prayer in schools.

[Aquia]

I am Christian but I don't think lead prayer type things are right. If you want to spread Christianity you cannot force it on others. You can pray to yourself or even with a friend but to force everyone in the class to pray to a God that they don't believe in or have the same faith is wrong. I have many Hindu and Muslim students in my school and they would probably feel the most alienated. I, myself, I take my bible to school on occasion and read and I am praying constantly throughout the school day.

I have never faced a problem with praying against the rules. If they wanted to really stop it, than trust me that one minute of silence everyday before school (in America) would not exist. If they wanted to get rid of prayer or I have even heard where students can't wear Christian shirts, then they would also need to get rid of other religions traditional dress.

[Rowena Ravenclaw]

On Sept. 12 2001, my school had a very very long moment of silence to honor those who died the day before. There was no religion attached to it at all, it was a sign of respect for those who died. There was no prayer, it was just for us to reflect. I don't see what is wrong with that.

Neither do I. But that would be a one-time event, with a specific focus encompassing people of all (or no) faiths. It's a generic, daily moment of silence I oppose.

[popping corn]

yay. i believe that there should b a prayer room for ppl who want 2 pray but it shouldnt b compulsory for ne1

[iluvhhr]

I don't agree with prayer in public schools. I think it can offend kids who don't practice Christianity. If the school allows Christian prayer, then wouldn't that lead to prayer for other religions? That would only seems fair. Prayer should only be allowed in religious affiliated schools.

[legstump]

Simply put the ideal thing is to have a moment of silence, where each person prays quietly to the creator according to his or her belief, is the best solution.

The problem is that if a kid doesn't know there's a Creator watching his actions what's to stop him robbing, stealing etc. This is a time for him to reflect on his deeds in a non threading and non denominational manner.