CoSForums Archive - Karkaroff: Still a deatheater?

Jessica

May 12th, 2003, 10:58 pm

All right, this is my logic:

1) In the Pensieve trials, Karkaroff explains that he does not know the identity of the other death eaters.

However,

2) At the end of GoF, we see the circle of DeathEaters and everybody obviously know who is there. This seems to be an ongoing thing, i.e. this is not the first time they had this circle.

Therefore

3) Karkaroff MUST HAVE LIED when he said he did not know the identities of the rest of the deatheaters.

4) Additional evidence is the fact that Durmstrang is the only school to actually teach the dark arts.

I'm thinking he may not be the deatheater who is "too cowardly to return" after all.

Any ideas?

Barbara Kennedy

May 12th, 2003, 11:01 pm

Karkaroff is definitely the cowardly Death Eater since he fled at the end of GoF when his Mark was burning.

Jessica

May 12th, 2003, 11:08 pm

Right, that's what we assume. But we also assumed that Barty Jr was an innocent kid, that Mad Eye Moody was really Mad Eye Moody and that Sirius Black was a nasty villain.

What if there's something else going on that we don't see?

Also if he is a coward then why wouldn't he give as many names as possible at the trials in order to save his own skin?

Barbara Kennedy

May 12th, 2003, 11:10 pm

Most likely because he really didn't know any names to give.

AvidSkyRise

May 12th, 2003, 11:12 pm

I think that he did know names he just didn't want to turn his friends over to the good side and he was too cowardly to return to Voldemort...maybe he gave something away during the trials that labeled him as a traitor and he didn't want to come back

Barbara Kennedy

May 12th, 2003, 11:18 pm

Back during the Pensieve Trials there may have been more secrecy among the Death Eaters and Karkaroff may have not known any of the others at that time.

Jessica

May 12th, 2003, 11:23 pm

I don't think so.

The Pensieve trials happened after Voldemort's defeat, so when would the circle have been invented. It must have been going on during Voldemort's original reign. Otherwise it would have been a new thing.

Snape? says at one point that when the mark burned the deatheater were supposed to immediately apparate at Voldemorts side so the circle cannot have been a new thing.

So unless there's something I'm missing Karkaroff must have lied in the trials

Horntail

May 12th, 2003, 11:26 pm

At this point, it seems a little silly to keep that much secrecy among the Death Eaters anymore. Especially ones that were in a trial or those that confessed that they were under the imperious curse. It seems like just about everyone in the wizarding world would know about who these people are now. But before the trials, I can see how there would be much more secrecy and Karkaroff might not know many names. I'm wondering if he will ever return though.

Moonstone

May 12th, 2003, 11:43 pm

It's possible that Karkaroff did not have too many names to offer because he had been in Azkaban for quite a while before cutting the deal to go free. Karkaroff's trial occurs after Voldemort fell. Most of his information is old information- Death Eaters who were caught or killed while he (Karkaroff) was in prison. One of the Death Eaters Karkaroff names is Rosier. Sirius tells Harry that Rosier was Death Eater killed by Aurors "the year before Voldemort fell". And Crouch in the Pensieve says that Rosier was caught and killed shortly after Karkaroff was captured. So by the time Karkaroff got his chance to turn in his fellow Death Eaters, he was already well out of the loop, possibly imprisoned for a year or more.

Barbara Kennedy

May 12th, 2003, 11:48 pm

Well spotted Moonstone, no one else caught that!

Jessica

May 12th, 2003, 11:53 pm

This is true. However, there are obviously quite a few deatheaters who came to the circle in GoF. So there are stille several ***coughmalfoycrabbeandgoyle*** he could have turned it but seemingly chose not to.

Horntail

May 13th, 2003, 12:05 am

The circle thing would probably have been around before the trials, but Voldemort wouldn't have just gone off spouting names like he did the night Harry was there. Everyone would have been wearing cloaks and masks, so I can see how hard it would be to recognize many people. But now everyone that showed up to the new circle has already been tried for being a deatheater and their names have been cleared. Once they start terrorizing again I imagine it will be harder to go free a second time.

Goldie

May 13th, 2003, 12:17 am

Normally, I'd say that except for Snape - and I'm not so sure about him - once a death eater, always a death eater.

In Karkaroff's case, the death eaters want to kill him, and the good guys won't have him, so he's an outcast to both sides.

When he started naming names, he probably figured Voldemort was gone for good, so any death eaters still on the loose wouldn't be able to touch him for fear of bringing attention to themselves. Now that Voldemort's back, he probably thinks he'd be safer in Azakaban than on the outside.

He'd be right, too.

I doubt there's anywhere he can hide for long, so I think he'll reappear in the sixth book. I don't think he'll show up in OofP, because Voldemort will be busy rebuilding and will go after revenge later, and I doubt he's important enough to hold back until book 7.

Barbara Kennedy

May 13th, 2003, 12:20 am

Oh, I don't think Azkaban is safe for him to hide in. Voldemort plans on getting the Dementors on his side and releasing all the Death Eaters in Azkaban. If that happens, there will be a lot of deaths there as well.

Goldie

May 13th, 2003, 12:23 am

I wasn't thinking about him hiding in Azakaban, I was thinking along the lines of Sirius' old cave. Serve him right to have to live off rats!

Barbara Kennedy

May 13th, 2003, 4:18 am

Karkaroff may find he HAS to choose to side with Dumbledore, just to have any chance to survive.

dorcasderr

May 13th, 2003, 4:31 am

I actually think jessicacarstens has a point. We DON'T know everything and Karkaroff might have been one of the unnamed DE's at the circle. We only know from hearsay that he fled. He may have fled TO Voldemort and the reference to the coward may, indeed be to someone else. We'll just have to wait to find out.

AvidSkyRise

May 13th, 2003, 4:56 am

I don't think Karkaroff could hide anywhere safely, I think that Voldemort would find him no matter what, even if he was in a cave like Sirius

Severely Snapped

May 13th, 2003, 5:42 am

I think Karkaroff will eventually return to the Dark Order, though I doubt it will be a voluntary action. Remember, Voldemort didn't say he would be killed, only that he would "pay." Crucio, anyone?

I hate Karkaroff with a passion and I wouldn't trust him as far as I can throw him. He's such a weasel--running around Hogwarts like a Cub Scout in a forest fire, sniveling and whining...and to Snape, of all people! Snape, whose name he just couldn't WAIT to give to the Ministry when he thought it would save his hide.

It would be just like Karkaroff to come to Dumbledore for help and end up betraying them all. If his "re-entry fee" to Voldemort's circle turned out to be Snape's or Dumbledore's head on a platter, don't think for a second he wouldn't do it.

Horntail

May 13th, 2003, 3:25 pm

I agree with you Snapped, I think he will return, and it won't be voluntary or fun for him. I never really thought about how willing he was to give up Snape's name at the trail, but then later at Hogwart's how he was acting much nicer to him, and asking for help when the dark mark started to appear. He was an intresting character, and I hope we get to see more of him, especially if we can see him getting what he deserves.

I don't think anyone on the "good" side would trust him again though, not even Dumbledore, so I doubt he will have to betray anyone to rejoin the deatheaters. He seems like more the type to go back late, tail between his legs, begging for forgiveness.

Potter_fan

May 13th, 2003, 4:31 pm

I don't think he is still a death eater because he fled. If he was really loyal he would have returned like all the others.

Dedalus

May 13th, 2003, 4:42 pm

Karkaroff didn't lie. The Death Eaters wouldn't know the other Death Eaters, or atleast all of them - they might know a close knit group, whom they worked with on a "case" at one point, because, as Moody pointed out - it wouldn't be at all safe trusting that information to potential Squealers.

They all apparated by Voldemort's side, but they were all masked and hooded. He named some names, but that might have been on purpose, half in spite. No Death Eater would know the names of all the Death Eaters, though.

There's no reason why he wouldn't be the cowardly Death Eater who fled. He squealed on fellow Death Eaters, didn't he? That doesn't go away, whatever else we might find out, and anyone would be frightened to return after that.

Mary Jane

May 14th, 2003, 1:25 am

I'm guessing that if Karkaroff had any more names he would've given them up. The Dark Lord was gone and he didn't want to spend a lifetime in Azkaban. It makes sense, too. The DEs are cloaked and masked - he could have other reasons not to give up Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle. Perhaps he knew their names had already been cleared or he truly didn't know their identities. After all, I get the feeling that when Voldemort went around his circle naming some DEs, he was picking out the ones who were most able to restore him but chose to turn their backs. Maybe he did that to instill fear in them, they know they have to be faithful THIS time because others now know their names.

That's just my opinion, I could be wrong!

Nickel

May 14th, 2003, 2:50 am

If Karkaroff is still a supporter, he may have fled in order to apparate.. After all Hermione tells us many times that you can't apparate on Hogwarts grounds, so he could have fled in order to get to Voldemort, and by the time he got there Harry had already used the cup to go back to Hogwarts.

Barbara Kennedy

May 14th, 2003, 2:55 am

I think that it would have been VERY bad timing for him to show up at just that moment. Voldemort would NOT be happy.

Mary Jane

May 15th, 2003, 12:51 am

I think that's a possibility, Nickel. I also think that Snape's mission could've been to spy on Voldemort - he could've apparated later and explained his absence by saying he only just got away from the grounds and was able to apparate.

zent

May 15th, 2003, 12:53 am

Doubtful: Voldemort most definitely knows Snape betrayed him.

Moonstone

May 15th, 2003, 1:16 am

Karkaroff would be too frightened to return to Voldemort voluntarily. Karkaroff knows his life expectancy has diminished greatly since Voldemort is back. Things will go very poorly for Karkaroff when Voldemort does catch up with him. What possible use could Voldemort have for an operative who betrayed his fellow Death Eaters?

By the way, Karkaroff had to be pretty desperate to be following Snape around. Looking for support from someone you betrayed? What was he thinking?

Jessica

May 15th, 2003, 8:21 pm

Actually all of the DeathEaters that apparated to Voldemort's side had betrayed him in one way or another. In order to escape Azkaban they either had to repent and give up names or they had to pretend they were under the Imperio curse. Since everyone they gave up (except Snape) was put into Azkaban, there is CURRENTLY no one out there but Voldemort who would be able to cast the first stone at Karkaroff.

I just think JKR is making it too obvious for us to conclude that he is the coward. I stanf behind my theory that she may be setting us up for a twist.

Nickel

May 15th, 2003, 8:42 pm

Posted by: Jessicacarstens
I just think JKR is making it too obvious for us to conclude that he is the coward. I stanf behind my theory that she may be setting us up for a twist.

I agree, it seems as though we're being set up to believe that Karkaroff is a death eater who is now sorry, just as we believed scabbers is a rat...

Severely Snapped

May 16th, 2003, 2:40 am

Originally posted by jessicacarstens (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=321318#post321318))
Actually all of the DeathEaters that apparated to Voldemort's side had betrayed him in one way or another.

jessicacarstens, I believe Moonstone was referring to Karkaroff's betrayal of Snape, and his subsequent shameless sucking up to him when their Dark Marks reappeared.

Jessica

May 16th, 2003, 5:21 pm

Sorry Severely Snapped.

I totally agree with that . I was making more of a general comment than specifically arguing with Moonstone who I think made a good point.

I guess I wasn't that clear.

zent

May 16th, 2003, 8:10 pm

I just don't think Snape would show Dumbledore the Dark Mark, letting him know that Voldemort was back, if he was on Voldemort's side. There were too many places where Snape could have handed victory to Voldemort, and chose to help Dumbledore, or even Harry!

Perhaps Voldemort was referring to Ludo Bagman as the coward, instead of Karkaroff?

Severely Snapped

May 17th, 2003, 4:04 am

Originally posted by jessicacarstens (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=322548#post322548))
Sorry Severely Snapped.

I totally agree with that . I was making more of a general comment than specifically arguing with Moonstone who I think made a good point.

I guess I wasn't that clear.

Oh, I didn't think you were arguing, I just thought you had misunderstood. No need to apologize. All's cool, my friend. :)

Barbara Kennedy

May 18th, 2003, 4:27 pm

I love the way mature people handle these conflicts on this forum!
Hugs to both of you!:grouphug:
I just wish they could all be handled this maturely.

Jessica

May 21st, 2003, 9:32 pm

Originally posted by jessicacarstens (original post (http://www.cosforums.com/a/showthread.php?postid=321318#post321318))
Actually all of the DeathEaters that apparated to Voldemort's side had betrayed him in one way or another. In order to escape Azkaban they either had to repent and give up names or they had to pretend they were under the Imperio curse. Since everyone they gave up (except Snape) was put into Azkaban, there is CURRENTLY no one out there but Voldemort who would be able to cast the first stone at Karkaroff.

I just think JKR is making it too obvious for us to conclude that he is the coward. I stanf behind my theory that she may be setting us up for a twist.

Now that we're all friends does any one have any other ideas on this :)

MotherBear1975

January 26th, 2004, 5:27 pm

The answer to this one is easy... If he's still alive, then he's a Death Eater. Think about it... one too scared to return... thats Karakoff... Voldemort said hed' be "delt with" so by now he's certainly been found, punished, and if he didn't re-join... killed.

Angora

January 26th, 2004, 6:59 pm

I think Karkaroff is the one who "will be killed" and not the one who was too cowardly.

Alternately, he could have been in the graveyard (although, I'm more of a fan of the Snape in the Graveyard theory, myself). But from his trepedition about the mark coming back, I think it's more likely that he's left Voldemort forever, and that someone else is the "coward" (either Snape or Bagman).

Hood Teacher

January 26th, 2004, 8:38 pm

ok either Karkaoff is one a former death eater in hiding
2 a death eater made to return
3 well i think we know what voldemort wanted to do to tratiors

ParselTongue

January 26th, 2004, 9:11 pm

He fled in GoF, I belive he is the coward. His worries at Hogwarts when the tatoo was growing darker show he feared Voldemonts return, I assume because he named names during his trial, and knows Voldemont can/will make him pay. I belive in book 6 it will open with lots of deaths and who knows, Karkaroff may be one. At least I hope theres lots of deaths. :p I just dont see Voldemont keeping Karkaroff around after his treachery.

Liselle

January 26th, 2004, 10:13 pm

check out the three missing death eaters thread too, some pretty interesting arguments relating to this have been gone through there! (if someone has pointed that out already I apologise!)

I think once a death eater, always a death eater in ways until Voldie or his minnions pop up and kill you......so chances are Karkaroff has kicked the bucket already if he really was as big a coward as we thought he was

hesdead-dealwithit

January 26th, 2004, 11:13 pm

Just because he's a coward doesn't mean he's an idiot or he can't fight. I don't think he's that stupid that he'd be captured already, as he is obviously not a high priority for the DEs. He's too much a coward to be able to harm the DEs, so they can just leave him be and deal with him later. And he's not stupid enough to walk right into them.

SnorkackCatcher

January 27th, 2004, 12:02 am

If Karkaroff is the "too cowardly" one, he may well have rejoined the DE's by now. After all, if they found him, what choice would he have? Voldemort let Wormtail back, despite his obvious untrustworthiness, because he was still useful and had nowhere else to go. I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to Karkaroff (after an extended bout of Cruciatus Curses, of course).

If he's the "one who I believe has left me forever" he still might be able to get back, if he can convince Voldemort that he was merely trying to save his own skin by turning in the other DE's. He'd be severely punished, of course, and never trusted, but then how many DE's does Voldemort really trust anyway?

I doubt that he was one of the DE's in the graveyard, as then there would be no reason for him to flee. It's interesting that he isn't mentioned at all in OotP - not even a note of his death. Obviously he hasn't gone back to Durmstrang or that would surely have rated a comment (and if he wasn't planning to rejoin, he would be a sitting duck there).

Whichever applies, I suspect we'll see him again, even if only in passing, just to resolve the question of who the three missing DE's were!

hermy_weasley2

January 27th, 2004, 12:46 am

Karkaroff reminds me very much of Pettigrew. He allies himself with the people who can help him. Unfortunately for Karkaroff though, no one can really help him now. I think he's still alive and living like Sirius did when he was on the run. Except, up until the end of OoTP no one knew there was any reason to be suspicious of him. That may change now, but he doesn't seem like much of a threat to anyone. He's not exactly the strongest character in the books.