Chamber of Secrets

Chamber of Secrets (http://www.cosforums.com/index.php)
-   Legilimency Studies (http://www.cosforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163)
-   -   Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=107881)

wickedwickedboy April 5th, 2009 8:33 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FurryDice (Post 5273927)
Lucius was known to be from a family who disliked Muggleborns and his time at Hogwarts did nothing to suggest he felt any differently. Dumbledore had met young Tom Riddle in the orphanage, where he showed little restraint in relation to his conversation, plus he had Mrs' Cole's input. Snape had been friends with a group of wannabe Death Eaters. Plus, there is no reason to assume Dumbledore had no proof from an incident or incidents we do not see that Snape was a Death Eater.
More to the point, Snape, Lucius Malfoy and Voldemort did nothing to play down their strength and certainly didn't come across as weak. People are much more likely to be wary and question the motives of someone who comes across as strong than someone who comes across as weak and dependent. You don't view a person you consider weak as a threat.

I agree completely. My point is from the perspective of Peter having been on the dark path - evil - whatever you wish to call it - from the start. That was the proposition I was responding to.

To me, it makes sense that Peter would be overlooked because up to the point of Voldemort contacting him, he actually was a 'goodsider'. He perhaps didn't have the full on dedication of Moody - but I feel that he was actually fighting on the good side with the purpose of it prevailing. I don't feel he was considering betraying the Order all along or anything along those lines. That is why no one suspected him once he did become a spy - and I think Voldy helped him learn ways to keep his cover.

So my only point was that if Peter had been a 'bad seed' all along - and just pretending to be on the good side - Dumbledore, of all people, would have recognized it. I think he would have recognized it at Hogwarts, but definitely by the time Peter became an Order member in my judgment. To me, Dumbledore overlooked Peter and misjudged him was because Peter had not been a 'bad seed' or worthy of being suspected prior to meeting up with Voldemort. Same with his friends - if Peter had been betraying them here and there throughout his youth, it is highly unlikely they'd continue to put up with him as a friend, imo. So I think Peter became a different person - meaning took on an evil perspective rather than having one all along.

Again, I am not speaking of Peter's vulnerable and insecure character or his personality. All of the traits he had can be found in goodsiders or badsiders, imo. What I don't believe is that one can forecast which road a person will take based on their traits - those things are there, but a person still has the power of choice - the freewill to choose to do the right thing or the wrong thing. Peter, imo, was choosing the right thing at first, despite his personality and character, but then he made a bad choice to do the wrong thing. That is how I see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 5273988)
What you point out, change, is one problem. Peter may have checked out when he joined, not as a courageous and committed fighter (which I simply don't believe), but as someone who could honestly answer he was not in, and did not plan to enter, Voldemort's service.

In my honest opinion, Dumbledore would have told him to go home if he wasn't ready to commit to fighting against evil. Many, many people philosophically had no intention of being in Voldemort's service, but most of them were not Order members, they stayed home and out of the war. The whole purpose of the Order was to fight against evil, against Voldemort and his DEs, imo. What good would Peter serve Dumbledore if he was unwilling to act? So I feel Peter had to have indicated that he wished to fight against Voldemort - but on the inside, I would agree he didn't have the dedication of someone like Kingsley or his friends. But that is not a requirement - the requirement is not to be 'evilly' bent and want Voldemort out of the picture and be willing to act on that, imo. For example, Lucius would not have been allowed to become an Order member no matter what he said, imo, because Dumbledore knew where his loyalties lay in philosophy as well as his ideas about any means justifying the end. It would be good as allowing a prospective turncoat into your fold and I don't feel Dumbledore was unwise in that regard. I also agree that Snape and Peter's stories were alike, and in the same way, Snape was initially loyal and dedicated to Voldemort before betraying him - and Peter was the same, loyal and dedicated to Dumbledore, before betraying him, imo. If Peter wasn't, then all of his acts would not be 'betrayal' at all in a true sense, imo.

hpfan795 May 21st, 2009 2:14 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
I believe that Petigrew will only do things as long as there is a reward or he has enough protection. He acts on fear, not instinct.

byrdibi23 May 25th, 2009 5:29 pm

Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor?
 
Just something that confused me a little bit. How did Peter get into Gryffindor? The only description of him ever is a fat cowardly person? Also, Gryffindors are supposed to be loyal. If the Sorting hat was never wrong, was it sick or something when sorting Peter?

ally_xx May 26th, 2009 2:14 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by byrdibi23 (Post 5311166)
Just something that confused me a little bit. How did Peter get into Gryffindor? The only description of him ever is a fat cowardly person? Also, Gryffindors are supposed to be loyal. If the Sorting hat was never wrong, was it sick or something when sorting Peter?


:lol:

I think Peter was different when he first started off at Hogwarts.

excusemydust May 26th, 2009 2:30 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ally_xx (Post 5311521)
:lol:

I think Peter was different when he first started off at Hogwarts.

This raises a question I've always had about the sorting hat: are its decisions based on inherent character traits, or how the individual thinks about themselves? I suppose the answer was given to us by Dumbledore, but I'd be interested to know what others think.

As for Pettigrew, I am prone to believing that his desire to be among those who he believed to be courageous was strong enough to gain him a place in the house of his choice.

JesHollow May 26th, 2009 2:45 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ally_xx (Post 5311521)
:lol:

I think Peter was different when he first started off at Hogwarts.

I agree with that quote. Though it was sad he was on the Dark Lord's side near later on in the books but when he was younger I don't think he was that bad. My opinion.

ally_xx May 26th, 2009 3:36 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JesHollow (Post 5311548)
I agree with that quote. Though it was sad he was on the Dark Lord's side near later on in the books but when he was younger I don't think he was that bad. My opinion.

I agree as well. He was probably just as innocent as any other student first starting out at Hogwarts (exclu. Voldemort). He didn't know he was going to end up like that.

arithmancer May 26th, 2009 2:37 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by byrdibi23 (Post 5311166)
Also, Gryffindors are supposed to be loyal. If the Sorting hat was never wrong, was it sick or something when sorting Peter?


Hufflepuffs are supposed to be loyal. The Hat apparently recognized he was more brave than he was loyal. :lol:

wickedwickedboy May 27th, 2009 11:11 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Not everyone in Gryffindor had the same level of bravery. Hermione was not as brave as Ron, who was not as brave as Harry. So you have to figure Peter was brave, just not your major warrior brave dude. He was a hero at first, then he turned to the dark side - he was like the opposite of Regulus.

Kanksha May 27th, 2009 12:50 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew in Gryffindor?
 
Would Peter have remembered that he had a life debt to Harry if Harry had not managed to remind him?

I would like to think that he would have, but the evidence seen seems to suggest not. He was all set to strangle Harry before Harry reminded him about the debt.

What prevented Peter from fleeing Voldemort's side? "Loyalty" or fear?

Fear, I think. As Sirius and Remus said, Peter wanted to surround himself with the most powerful people. He thought James & Sirius were powerful, he hung around with them. When he felt that Voldemort was gaining power he aligned himself with him. A very Slytherin-ish trait, he was essentially taking care of his own skin by pledging loyalty to the most powerful people around.

Voldemort "gifted" Wormtail with a silver hand. How much of an impact if any did this have on him?

Hmm, I think he must have been quite pleased initially. However, subsequent assignments (such as being at Spinners End with Snape) would have lessened that happiness I'm sure.

Did Peter develop throughout the series? If Wormtail liked the choices he made, why did he bite Goyle on the Hogwarts Express?

Well I don't think that Peter started out with an affection for the Dark Arts, or the Sorting Hat would have never put him in Gryffindor. He definitely developed throughout the series into a boy who craved the company and protection of the strongest people around.

However I suspect he bit Goyle on the train purely because the ruckus was disturbing his sleep :p


Quote:

Originally Posted by excusemydust (Post 5311534)
This raises a question I've always had about the sorting hat: are its decisions based on inherent character traits, or how the individual thinks about themselves? I suppose the answer was given to us by Dumbledore, but I'd be interested to know what others think.

As for Pettigrew, I am prone to believing that his desire to be among those who he believed to be courageous was strong enough to gain him a place in the house of his choice.

I don't think his desire to be among the brave and strong would be enough for the Hat to put him in Gryffindor. He must have shown inherent Gryffindor braveness, albeit t a lesser degree than James, Sirius or Remus.

I doubt the Hat would place you in a particular house only because you wanted to be there.

SSJ_Jup81 July 31st, 2009 6:15 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
An old post of mine, but thought I'd put it back up to show that Peter did show that he was brave.
Quote:

Originally Posted by SSJ_Jup81 (Post 4717456)
Well, Peter did voluntarily hang around with a Werewolf, so that's an act of bravery. He also became an unregistered animagus, something else that's dangerous, as it's illegal, but, seeing as how he is a bit on the cowardly side, and seems to look out only for himself, he definitely fits the stereotypical trait of a Slytherin. He could also fit into Hufflepuff since he, seemingly, remains loyal to those who can keep him safe.

That aside, I kind of hate the fact that he didn't remember the life debt himself. I hate the fact that Harry had to remind him. It would've been a whole lot more dramatic, if he was choking Harry, and while doing so, had second thoughts, or said something to show that he was having second thoughts, and then end up choking himself to death.


bellatrix93 July 31st, 2009 6:47 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
I dont think these were actions of bravery or heroism, Peter followed his friends' lead and obeyed whatever orders they gave him, if he were acting from his free will I dont think he'd have turned into a rat it was a good representation of his character and all, but he didnt realise that he was being used by his friends, his job was to touch the trunk so the others would be able to pass, however I totally agree that he was a bit loyal especially when he was young among his friends, but IMO when he joined Voldemort he was neither loyal to Voldemort nor to his old friends, or probably he didnt know where his loyalities lay.

wickedwickedboy July 31st, 2009 7:58 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
I felt like it took bravery to turn into an animagus and to venture as a small rat around all the larger animals (he couldn't control the wolf). Actually, I felt he took some brave risks when older too, but they were all so wrongful, imo, I don't think they were admirably brave.

Googlie July 31st, 2009 8:20 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
I believe all the "brave" decisions he took were for self-preservation or for other selfish gains and that doesn't exactly qualify as courageous to me. I always have hard time wondering why he sorted into Gryffindor.

lilamedusa July 31st, 2009 8:38 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
I know that must people hate him,, but personally I pitty him, and even reminds me a bit of Ron and of Neville. How? Like this:

He liked attention, like Ron, and he probably was a bit like Neville, and his parents weren't confident on him, always telling him that he was weak, that he had no magic at all. That maybe he was a squib.

I think it is very likely that the Marauders meet each other in the train, and he met James, who undoubtely had a lot of charisma, saying how great Gryffindor was, teasing him and probably buying candies for all them four. Black and Lupin were selected before him so definetly he knew were they were going, and it was obvious James would be there too. So, probably because he admired James and Sirius, he wanted to be with them. And begged to the sorting hat, just like Harry did.

And then, as they grew up, Remus, Sirius and James were always brilliant, best in their year, getting Os and Es all the time. And probably, just like Neville, he had just As, Ps and Ds. And they would tease him, tell him things like 'you go out with a werewolve every full moon and you didn't knew the answer?'. And, through all those years at Hogwarts, Slytherins surely would spend his time telling him that he wasn't great enough, people would gossip of how pathetic he was.

And then he was out of school, and suddenly, a DE arrives and tells him how he can be greater than the other three, more powerful, more valuable, more fearable, more special. Of course he fell for that. He is greater than his 'friends' and he knows his Dark Lord is after the Potters, and people think there is a spy between them. And, he shows to himself he is 'smarter' than Remus and Sirius. Probably approaches Sirius talking about how he is 'afraid' that Remus will betray their very good friend James (we all know Sirius is impulsive). Sirius goes and accuses Remus of being the spy. Remus isn't so he doesn't know what to do. And Peter approcahes Remus and tells him how Sirius is trying to make it look like Remus is the spy, and that Sirius is a Black, and goes on like that, and tells the contrary to Sirius. Who would suspect stupid Wormtail of being the spy, when great wizards like Remus the werewolf and Sirius the pureblood are there?

And... finally, his 'finest hour', he would deliver the Potters to his Dark Lord, the charming and powerful wizard who thought of him like 'valuable'. His finest hour and then evrything is over. His Dark Lord falls, Sirius is after him, and he escapes. He transforms into a rat, probably hearing all about the fall of the Dark Lord, of the poor Potters, of the kid that survived.

And 11 years later he founds himself with Harry, who looks just like James, who has money and buys candy to share with his new friend. Who is funny and confronts the 'slytherins', whose best friend is funny and impuslive, just like Sirius. And three years later, Sirius is free again, probably looking for him, for Wormtail, who is the reason Sirius lost his freedom, his life and his friends in the first place. He goes into the castle looking for him. But no matter what he does, how he hides, Sirius founds him. and so does Remus. And they hate him.

And Harry saves his life, but is not enough, because he wanted to deliver him to the dementors. He ran away and went to the only 'being' that could protect him of the rage of his ex friends: LV. He had to have some nerve, running in the dark forest of Albania, finding LV, giving him his wand, milking a big scary snake, capturing a minister witch, brewing potions for LV, creating Babymort (hilarious name), cutting of his hand, criticizing LV and telling him to use another wizard, serving Snape.

Imagine those three years after LV was back. Poor soul. And finally, his last moment. They capture Harry, he has to go and check him. They take his wand away, he uses his hand. And there, in front of him, James' face, Lily's eyes. James, who joked with him, who helped him. Lily who was kind to him, understanding. And James' face is telling him he owes him his life. I think he wasn't surprised of what he was doing, but of what he was seeing. He just had to feel some remorse, some wish to back off and betray LV, otherwise, the hand wouldn't have turned against him.

He wasn't a good person. But I like to think that, at the end, he did felt some remorse.

bellatrix93 August 15th, 2009 6:30 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took (Post 5392795)
Clearly, Peter was presenting himself as a wholly trustworthy friend in late 1981, from what we can glean from Lily's letter to Sirius of that date, and James and Lily had therefore no reason to distrust him.

That's usually surprised me. Despite his friend's arrogance and the way he was treated by his friend, in that situation he proved himself intelligent. Actually, I think he had managed to outsmart and fool the four of them, Not only had he managed to to stay undetected but also managed to arise James and Sirius's suspicions in Remus and Remus's in Sirius.
Now, considering that Peter own intelligence as a trait, I can find many situations when Peter acted as an intelligent that I haven't noticed before. He managed to flee from Sirius, Harry and Lupin in PoA. He promised to stay with them. Harry had believed him and convinced the others that he was to be trusted, Also in tricking Bertha and dragging her to Voldemort, who doesn't call it intelligence but I think it was. She was a ministry worker and no doubt she would've had some important information.
He had a positive trait that he unfortunately dedicated to wrong deeds and like many others his intelligence could've been used in much more useful way.

Pearl_Took August 21st, 2009 2:37 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5378609)
I felt like it took bravery to turn into an animagus and to venture as a small rat around all the larger animals (he couldn't control the wolf).

A rat, being so much smaller than the other animals, can easily escape detection.

It is hard not to see Peter's animagus form as indicative of his character, and indeed prophetic ... he escaped detection for years.

Quote:

Actually, I felt he took some brave risks when older too, but they were all so wrongful, imo, I don't think they were admirably brave.
What brave risks were these, then? :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bellatrix93 (Post 5392910)
Actually, I think he had managed to outsmart and fool the four of them.

Quite. :cool:

Given Peter's rather enthusiastic career as a Death Eater, once he had gone over to Voldemort's service, the excuses he makes to Sirius and Remus in PoA for his treachery seem exceedingly thin. Given that he scampered off to Voldemort again surely reveals what his true character always was.

wickedwickedboy August 22nd, 2009 4:02 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl_Took (Post 5398210)
A rat, being so much smaller than the other animals, can easily escape detection.

It is hard not to see Peter's animagus form as indicative of his character, and indeed prophetic ... he escaped detection for years.

Well I was speaking about his willingness to allow his friends to help him become an animagus at all - he was so timid in some of the scenes we saw, it would be brave of him to undergo this dangerous transformation, imo.

Quote:

What brave risks were these, then? :)
Well he joined the Order and fought for a time, which took bravery, imo. I doubt he'd remain an Order member by shivering behind walls on every assignment - eventually everyone would simply suggest he do things safely from the castle or whatnot, imo. And then he served as a one way spy for a year - which took bravery on his part. He also was pretty brave when Sirius caught up with him later on, imo. Again, his bravery in these latter incidents was not admirable at all, but it did take gumption on his part to pull it off, imo. I mean, no one was going to swoon over Peter and tell him how brave he was except perhaps his commrades in the Death Eaters - it would be like commending the Joker for his bravery in confronting Batman - only Harley might do that. :lol:.

CrimsonZephyr August 22nd, 2009 4:22 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5398872)
Well he joined the Order and fought for a time, which took bravery, imo. I doubt he'd remain an Order member by shivering behind walls on every assignment - eventually everyone would simply suggest he do things safely from the castle or whatnot, imo. And then he served as a one way spy for a year - which took bravery on his part. He also was pretty brave when Sirius caught up with him later on, imo. Again, his bravery in these latter incidents was not admirable at all, but it did take gumption on his part to pull it off, imo. I mean, no one was going to swoon over Peter and tell him how brave he was except perhaps his commrades in the Death Eaters - it would be like commending the Joker for his bravery in confronting Batman - only Harley might do that. :lol:.

I somewhat agree with you. Peter would have had to have earned his bones as an Order member somehow. He couldn't simply sit on the sidelines all the time; Dumbledore would have told him to go home if he felt Peter was deliberately avoiding any and every dangerous situation.

I don't think his being a spy was particularly brave though. It took nerve, but it was an underhanded, filthy, scummy thing for him to do. Staying loyal, even if the Order was beleaguered, would be the brave, honorable thing to do. His confrontation with Sirius was a combination of desperation and some very, very quick thinking. He didn't even fight Sirius, per se. He blasted twelve defenseless Muggles apart before fleeing down a sewer. Not particularly brave, in my opinion.

Pearl_Took August 22nd, 2009 10:36 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5398872)
Well I was speaking about his willingness to allow his friends to help him become an animagus at all - he was so timid in some of the scenes we saw, it would be brave of him to undergo this dangerous transformation, imo.

OK. I'll go along with that, although I would say that also pointed to Peter's desperate desire to be accepted.

Quote:

Well he joined the Order and fought for a time, which took bravery, imo.
Except that we don't actually see that in canon. :huh: There is not one single recorded incident anywhere of canon of Peter doing any of this. We know he was part of the Order. That's it. There's nothing else to go on.

My golden rule for reading literature is: if it's not written down, it doesn't exist. ;)

Quote:

And then he served as a one way spy for a year - which took bravery on his part.

He also was pretty brave when Sirius caught up with him later on, imo. Again, his bravery in these latter incidents was not admirable at all, but it did take gumption on his part to pull it off, imo.
For me the treachery simply cancels out the bravery. :shrug: His action when Sirius caught up with him -- sobbing out "James! Lily! How could you!" so as to frame Sirius -- reveal a depth of cunning and duplicity that must have shaken Sirius to the core, when he realised at last what kind of a 'friend' they'd had beside them all those years.

Quote:

I mean, no one was going to swoon over Peter and tell him how brave he was except perhaps his commrades in the Death Eaters
Which clearly they didn't do. He seems to be as despised by his DE comrades as he was looked down on by his former Marauder pals. :yuhup:

Poor Peter, his life really is just one long epic Fail. :lol:


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 5:16 pm.

Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Original content is Copyright MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright its respective owners.