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-   -   Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=113801)

firth4eva November 24th, 2007 12:39 pm

Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
I couldn't find anything on this so...
Who is to blame for him going bad?
I think Marvolo Gaunt because of his attitudes towards his daughter

High_Lion November 24th, 2007 2:13 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
Marvolo's treatment of Merope is empathetic with the views of purebloods. They see themselves as strong, powerful, better wizards. Merope doesn't agree with this, and is therefore treated in disregard.

We see an echo, furthering this arguement with the Blacks. Sirius doesn't agree with the pureblood views, and is held in disregard by his family. We can assume his treatment by his family was similar to that of Marvolo's treatment of Merope.

Marvolo's views obviously traced back to Salazar Slytherin. A pureblood marriage would obviously be more of a convenience rather than true love.
I think Merope yearns for a true love, an equal or companion. She has very little interaction in the Gaunt household, and her only interaction comes from a far, by viewing Tom Riddle.

We know she is fascinated by Riddle, probably because she sees him as a way out of her hellish lifestyle.

Obviously we know what happens her up until the birth of LV.

The fact that she dies whilst giving birth to LV, would hurt him. He'd probably think that her love for him wasn't strong enough to keep her alive. Therefore he'd detest the feeling of love. He'd hate it. We see this echoing throughout his life, as he hates its so much he completely disregards it and sees it as a weakness rather than a strength.

Not knowing his father would further is hate of love, by also feeling not loved by his father too.

By seeing his mother as weak by dying, he'd probably see himself as strong by being alive. Seeing himself as stronger than a grown adult, would give him an ego.

This ego would be enlarged by him realising he was stronger, cleverer than the kids around him. And we know he holds them in disregard.

We know by the age of 10/11 when we see him at the orphanage, that he's an educated, intuitive, independent person. He confidently travels around London on his own, and is unwilling to let anyone help him.
It's unclear at this time as to whether he knows who his father is or not. The information could be found, but we just don't know. We can assume he hates his father regardless of this knowledge though.

Hogwarts would open up at knew chapter of him. We know his was the best student, and this would only enhance his ego.

It would also make a whole library of literature available to him, and he'd begin to trace his history. If he didn't know his father before Hogwarts, then we know he'd locate the information there. By also tracing his mother, he could back trace his heritage.

There'd be alot of information regarding Salazar Slytherin and his views, now knowing that he's the heir of him. He'd empathise with his views on pureblood.

If he didn't know his father before Hogwarts, its possible he thought himself of a pureblood. He'd assume if his mother was a witch, then his father would be a wizard.

If finding this at Hogwart's, then this would enrage him. But also again strengthen his muggle views.
By finding that the inherited the magical side of his parents, that he'd see magic as stronger than the weaker muggle.

Another event would be Grindelwald. We know from the timeline that Grindelwald's march against muggles happened whilst he was either at Hogwart's or before he got there. Therefore it would be well documented, and again he'd empathise with his views.

We see from his childhood as well, that he regards trophies. It's possible that because of their inanimation, that he prefers them. They have no feelings to be twisted or manipulated. Therefore cannot be weak or strong, just simply an object with a purpose.

By the time he begins his agenda, it's possible he tries to copy this with himself. He tries to bottle, and not show any emotion, preferring to model himsel as being an object. However being human we know it's not possible.

He also sees his Death Eater's as objects. As pawns with a simple purpose regardless of emotions or morals.


Although these factors perhaps model him, there has to be substance in the first place. I think he's genuinely evil, and his upbringing and events throughou his life only turn him to the pyschotic person we see in the books.

Harry could quite easily hold a hatred of muggles bigger than Voldemort's, after being mercilessly mistreated for 10 years. But he's genuinely a good person at heart.

We can see both of them as polar opposite's, with a shared core.
Both orphans from a very early age, both living with muggles unaware's of their true heritage. But then their personalities begin to fork off, Harry never used his magic because he doesn't realise it, and put's it down to chance. Tom being evil, has alot of rage and anger and therefore his uncontrolled magic has more hurtful consequences towards the focus of his anger.

Overall, i think regardless of the pureblood views, his upbringing and his findings about his life, Tom Riddle was an evil person.

Sly_Lady November 24th, 2007 3:01 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
It's Voldemort's fault.

phoenix713 November 24th, 2007 3:18 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly_Lady (Post 4850061)
It's Voldemort's fault.

Agreed. People being responsible for their decisions and actions is one of the major themes in the series.

Raviolissimo November 24th, 2007 4:05 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
a friend of mine co-wrote 3 of the standard texts
on the subject as a post-doc.
"Psychopathy: Antisocial, Criminal, and Violent Behavior"
http://www.amazon.com/Psychopathy-An...5916082&sr=1-4

"Oxford Textbook of Psychopathology"
"Personality Disorders in Modern Life"

there is a 4-point criteria for assessing people -
1. the inability to feel remorse
2. a grossly inflated view of oneself
3. a pronouned indifference to the suffering of others
4. a pattern of deceitful behavior

the original posts asks, "who is to blame ?"

the abbreviated definition - a psychopath is born,
a sociopath is shaped by society and may have
been good as a child. ("nature vs. nurture",
applied to people who hurt other people.)

while Voldemort may have had a rough childhood,
growing up in an orphanage, he was certainly an
"alpha child", albeit a loner.

to use fictional characters as examples, Voldemort
was approximately a psychopath; Darth Vader was
a sociopath (as a child he was emotionally normal,
though supernaturally talented.)

if blame is necessary, Voldemort is to blame.
(or, JK Rowling, since she created the character;
a technicality.)

My friends' career as a research psychologist ended
(temporarily, i hope) because of a bad outcome
from LASIK eye surgery.

LoonyMagic November 24th, 2007 4:19 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sly_Lady (Post 4850061)
It's Voldemort's fault.

:agree: That is my belief too. I compare Harry to Voldemort. Both had unloving and difficult childhoods, yet they both came out of those childhoods in completely different ways. I believe it all goes back to choice. Voldemort didn't have to be bad, he didn't have to make others suffer, but he chose to. :)

DeathlyH November 24th, 2007 4:20 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
It was entirely Voldemort's fault, no doubt about it. You can say that he had a terrible upbringing with people that didn't care for him, sure, but so did Harry. Harry never had anyone care for him, he was just the same as Voldemort, but he dealt with it and became a hero, not a mass murderer. Harry and Voldemort both recieved the same things when they were young, but Voldemort had the wrong way of going about things, so he was evil, Harry was good. As Dumbledore said it's our choices that define who we really are. Harry chose to live with it, and keep his head down quietly, and Voldemort chose to hate people for it.

Sly_Lady November 24th, 2007 4:37 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LoonyMagic (Post 4850107)
:agree: That is my belief too. I compare Harry to Voldemort. Both had unloving and difficult childhoods, yet they both came out of those childhoods in completely different ways. I believe it all goes back to choice. Voldemort didn't have to be bad, he didn't have to make others suffer, but he chose to. :)

Excellent comparison, LoonyMagic. We can also look at Snape, another wizard with a grim, unloving childhood. He went so far as to choose disastrously, yet he suffered great remorse and spent the rest of his life atoning for his errors. Voldemort had a long life in which to change, if he chose to do it, but he never did.

jessicarowling November 24th, 2007 4:48 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
i dont believe that it was anyone's fault but voldemort's. it was HIS choice to be bad. the orphanage didnt exactly abuse him and he had a second chance to live a new life at hogwarts but his desire to be the best and most powerful made him bad.

Rhea7 November 24th, 2007 4:54 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
I agree with most of you that it's Voldemort's fault. If he grew up in a loving home, would he be the same? Maybe, maybe not. But with the situations given to you you have to rise above them, like Harry and, in a way, Snape did.

RocknRollDee November 24th, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
Some great replies here :tu:

I agree that it was all down to the mind.
Feeling neglected, unloved, and very alone ... Tom did not find healthy solutions to these problems. His negative emotions tore away at him at a very early age ... I can see him sitting alone on his bed in the orphanage at 5 6 or 7 years old perhaps, wondering about his life, and feeling bitter and hateful about it. And once, when he was feeling particularly angry about it all, his magic showed itself and Tom suddenly felt fascinated and empowered at what he could do.
And so he becomes evil towards others in his hate and resentment, using his strange and mysterious powers to feel better about himself and his life, to feel important, to feel like he mattered after all.. he was special after all.. so what if he didn't have anybody.. he didn't need anybody....

So the question, who is to blame... you could blame Voldemort for his choices, yes. You could blame him for choosing to use evil means to feel better about life.
But I can't help thinking... perhaps a good counsellor and possibly medication would have stopped him becoming evil. Really, he was human after all (then...) .... all he needed was somebody to talk to and to care about him from an early age. Instead he felt rejected.

I think it's very possible that mental illness was to blame. (aswell as Voldemort)

I have mental illness myself so... it seems very possible to me that this was Voldemort's problem all along

......


Edit- Exactly what 'disorder' he may have had though, I am not sure. Mental illness is a very complicated thing. ?? ...

Voldemorts8thHorcrux November 24th, 2007 5:37 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
personally, i would have to say merope. she gave up on her son. i know she loved tom senior, but she shouldn't have given up on her son. or marvolo, for being so horrible to his daughter.

Fawkesfan1 November 24th, 2007 5:53 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
I believe that it was Voldemorts' fault. He chose the path he wanted to go from at an early age, 11 or 12. It was a bad one, no doubt about it -- but in his mind it was the right way to go.

Peruvian November 24th, 2007 6:48 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
I think it was the orphanage . Even though the orphans were well cared for , the orphanage was a bad place to grow up . If Tom was adopted and was raised in a different place with a caring family , there might not have any of the You-Know-Who nonsense .

AuroraBeryl November 24th, 2007 6:57 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
I don't think anyone can be pointed at as THE reason for Voldemort going bad. I'm sure some of it was just in the way he was and I'm sure the orphanage had a little to do with it, along with the fact that he didn't have a mother or a father.

I find it similar to Frankenstein and his monster. Sure, Frankenstein created the monster, but I personally can't put blame solely on Frankenstein for the monster being evil. There was more than one factor in it.

Greeney November 24th, 2007 6:58 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peruvian (Post 4850184)
I think it was the orphanage . Even though the orphans were well cared for , the orphanage was a bad place to grow up . If Tom was adopted and was raised in a different place with a caring family , there might not have any of the You-Know-Who nonsense .

Being raised in an orphanage doesn't make someone a serial killer. Hitler had a family and he had more victims than Voldemort in the books. It's Tom Marvolo Riddle's fault he killed people, and nobody else is to blame. Possibly he would be less angry at the world if he had a loving mother and father, but there are still some natural mental issues he has regardless of how he would be nurtured, for example, I doubt he would be any less selfish if he had parents, I doubt he would have found love if he had parents, and I doubt he wouldn't have killed anyone who bothered him badly enough even if he had parents. There are plenty of people who live in orphanages that grow up to be decent human beings and there are plenty of people with a loving family who grow up to be scum.

ecardina November 24th, 2007 7:28 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
It was Voldemort's fault. He did it to himself and although it wasn't his entire fault- he'd probably like taking the credit for it.
What we seem to forget is Harry had one year, just one year, were he was brought up in a happy environment being loved and cared for by his parents. Voldemort didn't have this. When you take a child away from it's parents it suffers greatly mentally. Voldemort never had something to attatch himself to, even at birth. Merope was probably dead before he opened his eyes for the first time.
Although it's only one year, it would have made that little difference, esspecially so early on in Harry's life, would have effected his personality making it more postive. In Voldemort's first year of life we can only presume (Seeing as it was an old fashioned orphanage) he would have spent a lot of the time in a solitary cot finding nothing to comfort himself. He was described as a strange baby and because of this he probably would have been neglected more so making the problem worse.
Harry grew up doing chores, getting abused by the Dursleys and bullied by Dudely. He didn't have many friends at school either but still he managed to get by, being a good person. Personality and nature had a lot to do with it.
Voldemort on the other hand was feared by other children. He must have figured this out at a young age and used this to manipulate others into doing what he wanted. Although Voldemort would have been surrounded by a handful of children I can imagine it would have been even more lonely considering no one wanted to talk to him. Least Harry could get his agression out by having an argument with Dudely.
Voldemort had a magpie attitude whilst Harry only took what he needed (and alot of the time he didn't even get that). Both boys would have to amuse themselves. Voldemort had a very mature personality from earlier on in his life, learning to get by on his own without the love of others. He must have thought his mother didn't care about him, dieing in child birth. This would have been increased when he found out she was a witch and could have saved herself.
Harry didn't ask much about his parents. He was told they died in a carcrash and that was the end of that. I don't think he went looking for answers and Veron and Petunia probably would have put a stop to the early on. He didn't blame his parents for what happened. He kept on going, unlike Voldemort who became obsessed with his heritage wanting more and more answers.
Moving on to school, both boys learnt more about their past and being half bloods didn't have much of a problem fitting in. Both boys seeked security in the school, calling it 'home'. Harry made friends much easier than he would have at his muggle schools and Voldemort went about impressing and gaining 'followers'. Harry just wanted to be an 'average', normal boy with parents. Voldemort wanted to be powerful and to gain praise and recognition from others. He wasn't an attention seeker but he did like to accomplish goals and to have others marvel at it.
When both boys found out about their pasts, Voldemort went about on his trail of destruction and sooner or later Harry had to put a stop to him.

So I believe Voldemort was to blame though had he been brought up differently he would no doubt have turned out a different person. We all know what happened to Merope and Tom R. but we can only assume had Tom really loved Merope and she had survived, Voldemort would have turned out someone who knew love. Sadly Voldemort's creation was made with no love and so the rest of his life he went about destroying love and regarding it as something not worth much. Voldemort made his own choices.

gillikitty2000 November 24th, 2007 8:02 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
I think overall it is voldemorts fault himself, although, i think that his dad had some influence in it. He knew that he had been abandoned by his father and that made him want to seek revenge. Overall it really was him because you can just choose to ignore the want for revenge and move on with your life, but it did play a part in it

I would also think that his lack of a proper family and love helped. If his mom had kept herself alive, then maybe he atleast would have felt loved by somebody. He never had any friends, once again part of his own choice, but it could have helped.

LoonyMagic November 24th, 2007 8:16 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peruvian (Post 4850184)
I think it was the orphanage . Even though the orphans were well cared for , the orphanage was a bad place to grow up . If Tom was adopted and was raised in a different place with a caring family , there might not have any of the You-Know-Who nonsense .

IMO, I think the orphanage did the best they could to look after a lot of children. I don't think they are to blame. There's a phrase "Some children have the devil in them", and I think this would apply to Voldemort - he was just born as an evil person. I don't think that someone can necessarily blame their surroundings or childhoods for what they have become. As I have said before, you can draw comparisons to Harry and Voldemort's pasts but they both turned out very differently.

Aldawen November 24th, 2007 8:24 pm

Re: Who is to blame for Voldemort going bad?
 
I think a lot of factors contributed to Voldemort's behavior, but he did choose his own path. That said, I think he has a few screws loose that could be the result of his inbred family, and this has quite a lot to do with the extent of his evil.


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