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arithmancer July 18th, 2008 5:51 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5088245)
Peter IMO cried his way out, feeling more sorry for himself than for his actions that were so wrong. And he ran to Voldemort when he could escape and he would have sobbed there as well IMO.

Sobbing here was to escape, sobbing there would be to gain trust IMO

I thought the crying was sincere. But yes, he would be sorry for himself, because (as his own words, cited by me upthread, indicate) he views himself as a victim of circumstance - he has "no choice" but to cooperate with Voldemort.

RemusLupinFan July 18th, 2008 10:56 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5088245)
I feel he was an opportunist, with scant regard for principles or values of any sort.

Opportunist is exactly the word I think of when describing Peter. He takes advantage of every situation, as well as of the powerful individuals around him. Of course, in the case of joining Voldemort, this backfired since Voldemort used Peter much more than Peter was able to use Voldemort to achieve his own ends.
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5088203)
Hmmm, more than feeling remorse I think Peter was like the coward, who tried to cry his way out when he was caught, and looked brave when he was in control of the situation.

I think that's a very accurate description of Peter's behavior which further illustrates his opportunistic nature. His crying may have been sincere, as zgirnius points out, but some of it might have been an exaggeration to make whomever he was pleading with believe him. I'd also have to agree that Peter never showed any remorse for his actions. He was solely concerned with advancing his own status, achieving power, or whatever it was that he wanted (I'm actually not 100% sure I understand what he wanted - was it power?) without regard for what happened to anyone else. I'm sure I've said this before, but Peter would have fit well in Slytherin due to these traits.
Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 5088125)
Personally, I love Peter's death to pieces. The resolution of the life debt issue introduced in PoA was great, I had so feared something saccharine and unconvincing that I would not like, and got instead one of my favorite creepy moments of the book.

Yes, I agree with you there. I was very satisfied with the way Peter's death was handled.

The_Green_Woods July 19th, 2008 4:55 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan (Post 5088615)
He was solely concerned with advancing his own status, achieving power, or whatever it was that he wanted (I'm actually not 100% sure I understand what he wanted - was it power?) without regard for what happened to anyone else.

That's the problem JKR has left us with in Peter's case. What exactly is the motive, for Peter's betrayal?

He would never have the status or the trust Bellatrix, the Lestranges or even the slippery Malfoys enjoyed with Voldemort. He was only a servant at best and I am sure he knew that. There would be no advancing in the ranks for him, even Snape who was not a pureblood and who had no social status to speak of nor the money could give Bellatrix a run for the rank and and he actually outranked Lucius when he killed Dumbledore, so much that Narcissa looked up to him, to help her protect Draco.

Peter would never rise like that. So there was nothing to be achieved to got by serving Voldemort. And I think Peter was the sort to associate himself with the strongest and most powerful of all and that was surely Dumbledore, who everyone knew was the only person Voldemort ever feared.

I wonder at Peter's motivation for turning to Voldemort.

One of the more bizarre theories I came up with was perhaps Peter wanted revenge on his friends, who he may have felt did not treat him right and with respect. So he turned to the dark side, to betray them and make them suffer.

But for this, there is nothing in canon apart from the SWM, where Sirius speaks down to Peter, otherwise there is not much really.

So for me, it is the motive for Peter's actions which are truly baffling.

RemusLupinFan July 21st, 2008 12:04 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Perhaps Voldemort was stringing Peter along, promising him a high rank if Peter kept doing what he wanted. That's the only thing I can think of at this point. In the beginning, I imagine one of Voldemort's closest associates approaching Peter and offering him some sort of reward, such as wealth or power, to betray the Potters, or just to join with them. Or perhaps it was an ultimatum: join us or die. Either way, I think it's possible that the Death Eaters kept Peter in line by means of fear and of pretending to be willing to give him whatever he wanted (which he obviously never got).

Chris July 21st, 2008 1:13 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RemusLupinFan (Post 5090168)
Perhaps Voldemort was stringing Peter along, promising him a high rank if Peter kept doing what he wanted. That's the only thing I can think of at this point. In the beginning, I imagine one of Voldemort's closest associates approaching Peter and offering him some sort of reward, such as wealth or power, to betray the Potters, or just to join with them. Or perhaps it was an ultimatum: join us or die. Either way, I think it's possible that the Death Eaters kept Peter in line by means of fear and of pretending to be willing to give him whatever he wanted (which he obviously never got).

I think I agree with most of this. Voldemort was shown to hook people with either a "join us or die" ultimatum, or with promises of reward(s). He seemed to be a bit more honest about the first way of getting people to join his army.
I think Peter was given the "join us or die" ultimatum after someone identified him as the weak point in the marauders armor, and whoever told Voldemort that was right. After he joined the DE's, he was probably kept by the "hook" of some sort of reward - and the constant fear of punishment. Peter did get one reward...but that wasn't much of a reward, after all, he had to cut off his arm to get it. And the reward ended up killing him. So, yeah, Peter never got much out of the bargain aside from perhaps not being killed prior to the Potters being killed.

MinervasCat August 30th, 2008 11:00 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
**Would Peter have remembered that he had a life debt to Harry if Harry had not managed to remind him? As a follower of Voldemort, I'm not sure that would have meant much to him if Harry hadn't "forced the issue," so to speak. Then, again, he did indicate to Voldemort that there might be some other way of coming back than killing Harry. So, he might have had some feeling of being in debt to Harry, or he may have just been a wimp and not wanted to get his hands dirty.


**What prevented Peter from fleeing Voldemort's side? "Loyalty" or fear? Definitely fear. I think he was totally convinced that Voldemort's return to power couldn't be stopped and wanted to be on the "winning" side. Otherwise, he could have gone to Dumbledore and proven his remorse for selling out Lily and James by using his rat disguise to spy on a family that supported Voldemort. That would have been a positive sign. Yet, he just
continued to hide out with the Weasleys and then ran to Voldemort when his cover was blown so he could try to convince him what a "loyal" follower he was.

**Voldemort "gifted" Wormtail with a silver hand. How much of an impact if any did this have on him? I think it made him feel special. He sacrificed his own hand to help rejuvenate Voldemort, and may have thought it was his due to get the silver hand.

**Did Peter develop throughout the series? If Wormtail liked the choices he made, why did he bite Goyle on the Hogwarts Express?
I think Wormtail was always playing the angles. At the time, biting Goyle was the thing to do to keep from letting his disguise start to slip. I'm not sure about the scene in the Riddle house where Wormtail seems to be sorry about having to kill Bertha Jorkins and hesitant to have to kill anyone else. I have wondered why this was. The only thing I can come up with is that, other than Voldemort and a couple of the real "crazies," like Bellatrix Lestrange and such, wizards, witches, and squibs must all have a bit of good in them that eventually shows itself. Even Draco Malfoy couldn't bring himself to kill Dumbledore; Snape had to do it.

Tenshi August 30th, 2008 11:10 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MinervasCat (Post 5126601)
**Would Peter have remembered that he had a life debt to Harry if Harry had not managed to remind him? As a follower of Voldemort, I'm not sure that would have meant much to him if Harry hadn't "forced the issue," so to speak.

Life debts probably didn't value much for people like him. I don't think that he even knew about it.

MinervasCat August 31st, 2008 12:40 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
I agree. I think Pettigrew was out strictly for Pettigrew. That's why he hooked up with James, Sirius, and Lupin.

What I can't figure out is why they had anything to do with him. He must have had about the same personality in school as he had later. And, how did the Sorting Hat ever send him to Gryffindor?

"You belong in Gryffindor,
where dwell the brave at heart,
Their daring, nerve and chivalry
set Gryffindors apart."

This certainly doesn't sound like Peter "Wormtail" Pettigrew.

RemusLupinFan September 2nd, 2008 1:09 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MinervasCat (Post 5126687)
I think Pettigrew was out strictly for Pettigrew.

I think that pretty much sums up Peter's behavior and motivations. Whatever he did, he was always looking out for number one without really thinking about anyone else. I also have always speculated on why Peter was placed into Gryffindor, and the only conclusion I come up with is that he showed amounts of "unconventional" bravery, such as when he stood up to Sirius (who was magically stronger). This doesn't seem a satisfying explanation though. :shrug:

wickedwickedboy September 2nd, 2008 2:12 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Because 'bravery' is not the only trait of Gryffindors. They have many traits I would say. He just 'fit' according to the hat, but we don't know enough about young Peter to really guess why, I don't think... But I agree with you he was out for himself in the scheme of things.

Leslie33 September 2nd, 2008 5:39 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Would Peter have remembered that he had a life debt to Harry if Harry had not managed to remind him? I think it was something Peter was counting on others to forget or let slide by the waist side. When Harry reminded him about the debt, Peter couldn't pretend any longer. He couldn't worm his way out of things, slink around. He knew that other people, especially Harry was aware of this and wouldn't have this "Poor Peter, he was always such a little lump of a boy". Harry held Peter responsible and wasn't about to let him sneak off or say "That's okay".
What prevented Peter from fleeing Voldemort's side? "Loyalty" or fear? Fear. If he had any ounce of Loyalty, he wouldn't have ratted out the Potters. He would have died to protect them and Harry. He was a spineless coward and chose the biggest, meanest kid to stay behind.
Voldemort "gifted" Wormtail with a silver hand. How much of an impact if any did this have on him? The only "gift" Voldemort gave Peter was a mark to show he belonged to him. As crude as it sounds, I believe it was Voldemort's way of saying "You belong to me, you can't hide now". His silver hand would make him even more of an outcast, make his handicap even more evident. He wouldn't be able to go underground and hide or make it look like he died in an accident or anything. So while Peter may have seen it as a "gift", I see it more as a way for Voldemort to keep track of him.
Did Peter develop throughout the series? Not really, in a way, he's kind of like Dudley. People felt sorry for him, gave him excuses and I don't think he was ever held responsible for his actions. I think he relied on other people like James and Sirius to do his thinking for him. If Wormtail liked the choices he made, why did he bite Goyle on the Hogwarts Express? Maybe the Rat part of him made him a cannibal. Sorry, I couldn't resist. Once again, he was called out on the carpet for the person he really was.

FurryDice September 2nd, 2008 7:38 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
[
Quote:

QUOTE=hermy_weasley2;4629909]
[*]Would Peter have remembered that he had a life debt to Harry if Harry had not managed to remind him?
I doubt it, he would probably have just liked to gloss over that fact, as he did when he restored Voldemort to his body. He would have seen no benefit in helping Harry when Voldemort was clearly the stronger party. His actions in sllowing Harry and Ron to escape were almost involuntary, not something he had planned or intended to do, a moment of hesitation rather than action. I agree with zgirnius and RemusLupinFan, it was a fitting way for the debt to be repaid, a deliberate act of courage like Lilys', or Harrys', or even an outright lie like Draco or Narcissa Malfoys, would not have been credible coming from Wormtail.


Quote:

[*]What prevented Peter from fleeing Voldemort's side? "Loyalty" or fear?
Fear, I believe. He was fearful of being sought out by Sirius and Lupin. He surely heard that Sirius had escaped again that night at Hogwarts, if he kept close to the wizarding world. That meant that Sirius, Lupin and perhaps also Dumbledore would have an interest in trying to find him. So as Voldemort shrewdly assesses in GoF, he would not be there if he had anywhere else to go, if he was not fearful of his former friends. As to why he did not seek sanctuary with another wizarding family, perhaps he was tired of being a rat, having experienced being in human form again. Or, perhaps, he knew that as a rat, he could be taken to Hogwarts, where he could be recognised, or seen on the Marauders' Map. He had no loyalty to Voldemort, to him, the Dark Lord was just a way of staying alive, no matter how poorly treated.


Quote:

[*]Voldemort "gifted" Wormtail with a silver hand. How much of an impact if any did this have on him?
Heehee, I love the irony of the hand -"May your loyalty never waver again, Wormtail". It seems the hand was powerful, he easily crushed twigs and cut ropes with it, but it was also a way of monitioring Wormtails' loyalty. He was probably delighted with the strength it gave him, but I doubt he knew of its' other purpose until it turned on him.


Quote:

[*]Did Peter develop throughout the series? If Wormtail liked the choices he made, why did he bite Goyle on the Hogwarts Express?
I think, on the train, he was just playing the role of faithful pet rat, striking at an intruder. I don't really think he develops much from POA to DH, he remains willing to do whatever it takes to ensure his own survival, even though he seems quite surly in GoF and HBP, when he feels under-appreciated. Whereas in DH, I think he is just terrified and hasn't the nerve to remain surly.


[quote]
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 5088920)
That's the problem JKR has left us with in Peter's case. What exactly is the motive, for Peter's betrayal?

Quote:

So there was nothing to be achieved to got by serving Voldemort. And I think Peter was the sort to associate himself with the strongest and most powerful of all and that was surely Dumbledore, who everyone knew was the only person Voldemort ever feared.
As Peter says in POA, Voldemort was becoming more and more powerful. Members of the Order were being killed, their allegiance to Dumbledore didn't keep them safe. Maybe Wormtail was given the "join us or die" option. I think he was labouring under the delusion that Voldemort wouldn't kill those on his own side. Maybe Snape (before he realsied Lily was in danger) had told Voldemort that Wormtail didn't have the nerve the other Marauders had.

Nympfadora13 October 9th, 2008 4:43 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
I think that Peter ought to be forgiven for betraying the Potters. I dont know why he was in griffindor, but it probably has something to do with quick thinking. The way he escaped Sirius was bad, but it was also very fast.

MrsCullen January 11th, 2009 11:43 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
This may have allready been mentioned, but why was Peter in Gryffendor, I mean, he displayed some very Sltheryn Qualities, namely, working for himself. He rode on the Coattails of the srongest person. I also find a lot af symbolism in him being a rat.

birdi86 January 12th, 2009 3:18 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
He was in Gryffindor because he wanted to be in Gryffindor and admired those traits, even if he sorely lacked moral courage.

wickedwickedboy January 12th, 2009 5:10 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
I suppose he could have tried to be the pet rat of Draco - or some other Death Eater's child. However, that would have been a bit dangerous since they all wished to kill him. But he could have chosen a Ravenclaw or Hufflepuff as well. Instead he chose a Gryffindor family at Hogwarts. Perhaps to the end he always thought of it as home and wished to be there. Neville didn't seem much like the Gryffindor type either - imagine we'd only seen 1 scene of him when he was shivering in his lessons - we'd wonder the same thing. So I say Gryffindors come in all types, sizes, etc. He just made a lot of bad choices like others in the series.

PureBloodGirl January 12th, 2009 7:47 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Would Peter have remembered that he had a life debt to Harry if Harry had not managed to remind him?
Yes, I think he would have. Peter was a very scared and terrified wizard. I think that over time he would have remembered and that would have terrified him more to have to pay a debt to his enemy.

What prevented Peter from fleeing Voldemort's side? "Loyalty" or fear?
Fear. Peter was only 'loyal' to Voldemort because he was afraid of him. He was afraid he would be murdered.

Voldemort "gifted" Wormtail with a silver hand. How much of an impact if any did this have on him?
I think it made him more loyal or thankful of Voldemort. Maybe it made Peter start follow Voldemort a bit more out of that little thankfulness he felt towards Voldemort because of his new hand.

Did Peter develop throughout the series? If Wormtail liked the choices he made, why did he bite Goyle on the Hogwarts Express?
No, not much. :lol: Hurray! He bit Goyle! No idea. Like I said before, maybe Peter was just following Voldemort out of fear and really had no true loyalty in him towards the Dark Lord. Perhaps he still had some good left in him. I don't remember exactly why Wormtail bit Goyle, though.

MrsCullen January 13th, 2009 2:41 am

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
My theory is that Mr. Goyale (Sr.) was probably not nice to Peter, he was probably picked on by everyone, where ever he went, he was dead amongst normal wizards, and a coward amongst Death Eaters. So, he heard the name Goyale, and bit him.

Nokel January 27th, 2009 8:54 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Would Peter have remembered that he had a life debt to Harry if Harry had not managed to remind him?
Yes, he would have. Harry saved his life, didn't he? I don't think that Pettigrew would have forgotten that in a hurry.

What prevented Peter from fleeing Voldemort's side? "Loyalty" or fear?
Fear, no doubt. If Peter ran, Voldemort (or one of his followers, more likely) would track him down and kill him. Karkaroff was a better wizard then Pettigrew, and the Death Eaters eventually caught up to him. Peter knew that he would be captured and killed.

Voldemort "gifted" Wormtail with a silver hand. How much of an impact if any did this have on him?
I think that it made Peter more ready to follow Voldemort. His thinking is, "Hey, I might get some more powerful stuff if I keep doing what Volemort wants". This better secured Pettigrews allegiance to Voldemort, though not completely.

Did Peter develop throughout the series? If Wormtail liked the choices he made, why did he bite Goyle on the Hogwarts Express?
Not at all. He was always a coward, and would always be a coward.

I think that he attacked Goyle because he was a Death Eaters son. Or maybe he just felt like biting someone at that moment. :p

The_Green_Woods March 29th, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Peter Pettigrew: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5266145)
Well it is just a matter of perspective. I consider his efforts to revive Voldemort and his spying/betrayal great risks, for little gain. Snape had to be careful that Peter did not discover his true loyalty, plus watch out for whatever Peter might try to do to him - so in my view, he was frightened of Peter - or better said, of what Peter might try to do and what he might discover.

Peter IMO ran to Voldemort because he wanted to save his life. He ran away from being Kissed. I don't think Peter did any one thing that was not for himself, his well being and his safety.

Snape would have been alert so that he does not give away anything of his true loyalties to Peter. That IMO is not being afraid of him. Since Snape had to watch his step with all DEs at that time (seeing Bella's questions in Spinner's End) I think Snape had to take care when he spoke and acted like a DE with everyone. Snape was certainly not scared of the rat, when we see him in Spinner's End. He is actually mocking him and treating him as his servant.


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