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arithmancer December 29th, 2007 3:09 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 4882132)
Dumbledore really needed Snape to live to tell Harry about the soul bit. But Dumbledore also knew about the Elder wand and that Voldemort was sooner or later going to understand that mastery over the wand was necessary for the wand to work properly. He would attack Snape and kill him.

In order to know that Dumbledore's wand was the Elder Wand, Voldemort had to research its past. I presume Dumbledore knew its past. And the facts surrounding its past are that, at least the last two times it changed possession, no one died. Gellert stole it from Gregorovich, and Dumbledore defeated Gellert in a non-fatal duel.

Voldemort decided to kill Snape in spite of these facts, of which he was cognizant. He could have simply defeated him; had Snape actually been Master of the Elder Wand, this would have sufficed to make Voldemort Master. Dumbledore is not psychic, and the action Voldemotr chose does not make the most sense from a utilitarian standpoint. It seems to me that Dumbledore believed that while Snape appeared to be a loyal and useful right-hand-man, Voldemort would let him live. It was an additional, unstated reason Dumbledore urged Snape to play hsi part well, as I see it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SusanBones (Post 4882302)
I agree that Dumbledore could be very cold-blooded. An example, in my opinion, is the way Moody was sacrificed so that Snape could remain a spy for Voldemort.

Actually, I do not believe this was the reason Moody was sacrificed. He was sarificed in order to keep Snape and Dumbledore on top of Voldemort's plan for attacking Harry when he left 4 Privet Dr. I think that if Snape had told Voldemort he could no longer get information from Order members because he was no longer trusted, Voldemort would have turned to someone else to supplement Yaxley's information. Someone like Bella, who would track down Dung or another known Order member, and learn the secret. In such a worst-case scenario, more people might have died, and Harry might have been at greater risk.

The_Green_Woods December 29th, 2007 4:27 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 4882349)
In order to know that Dumbledore's wand was the Elder Wand, Voldemort had to research its past. I presume Dumbledore knew its past. And the facts surrounding its past are that, at least the last two times it changed possession, no one died. Gellert stole it from Gregorovich, and Dumbledore defeated Gellert in a non-fatal duel.

I agree. :)


Quote:

Voldemort decided to kill Snape in spite of these facts, of which he was cognizant. He could have simply defeated him; had Snape actually been Master of the Elder Wand, this would have sufficed to make Voldemort Master. Dumbledore is not psychic, and the action Voldemotr chose does not make the most sense from a utilitarian standpoint. It seems to me that Dumbledore believed that while Snape appeared to be a loyal and useful right-hand-man, Voldemort would let him live. It was an additional, unstated reason Dumbledore urged Snape to play hsi part well, as I see it.
I don't think Voldmeort could have defeated Snape. As far as Voldemort was concerned, Snape was his man. His trusted man who killed Albus Dumbledore for him. How would he defeat Snape in a duel so serious that the wand will consider him truly powerful and change its allegiance.

With the Elder wand and indeed other wands, we have been told that they are semi sentint. While they don't change owners or allegiances in a mock or practise duel, they do change ownership when there is serious fight between two witches or wizards who want to defeat the other.

Snape would not do that as far as Voldemort knew. But he also know that Snape having killed Dumbledore was the owner of the wand. And there would be no serious duel because Snape was his man.

That was why I think Voldemort killed Snape. Because if he wanted to duel, he must have thought that Snape would most likely not fight with him. Then the wand too, will not become his.

By killing Snape, the wand is his. Only Voldemort never knew that it was not Snape but Draco who was the true owner.

What I think Dumbledore planned was that Snape would kill him, but since it was a planned murder, it would be Dumbledore who would wield the wand, and after his death, the wand too would lose its power, because it had not been won, as he had died undefeated.

Voldemort, in the meantime would think Snape was the owner of the wand and break into Dumbledore's tomb and take the wand and kill Snape to become its master, because Snape being a loyal spy would never fight him properly and if he did not fight properly, then the wand will not change ownership.

He would use a wand that is not properly won, because the Elder wand chooses the man with the most power. Dumbledore would be that man, because after his death there would be no way Dumbledore can be defeated and so the wand will not work for Voldemort when he duels Harry.

But all Dumbledore's plans of having the wand die with him failed, because Draco disarmed him in a very serious situation and became the owner of the Elder wand.

So if Dumbledore knew all this as I think he did, then it is really bad when he cannot even tell this to a man who has sold his soul for Dumbledore the last 16 years.

I think Snape should have been told about the wand. The fact he was not, makes me feel Dumbledore intended Snape to die and IMO he never had the right to sacrifice Snape's life without asking him.

Then once again, had Snape been killed elsewhere or had died without passing on ethe memories to Harry, what was the back up plan? That is what I cannot understand. How could Dumbledore think Snape would simply be fine until Harry gets the message and what would Dumbledore's plan be if Snape died without Harry knowing he was a horcrux?

Quote:

Actually, I do not believe this was the reason Moody was sacrificed. He was sarificed in order to keep Snape and Dumbledore on top of Voldemort's plan for attacking Harry when he left 4 Privet Dr. I think that if Snape had told Voldemort he could no longer get information from Order members because he was no longer trusted, Voldemort would have turned to someone else to supplement Yaxley's information. Someone like Bella, who would track down Dung or another known Order member, and learn the secret. In such a worst-case scenario, more people might have died, and Harry might have been at greater risk.
Again, there was no reason to make Voldemort chase Harry. Snape had just killed Dumbledore and no one in the Order is even going to look at him, without trying to arrest him or kill him.

Voldemort already trusts him implicitly. He has also seen Charity Burbage die without blinking his eye.

Where was the need to kill Moody, Gerorge's ear and Hedwig so that Snape somehow once agaoin gets information. Vodlemort was happy with him. Why should Snape prove himself at that time? What was the need really?

The entire post is my opinion only.

wickedwickedboy December 29th, 2007 10:30 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 4882349)
In order to know that Dumbledore's wand was the Elder Wand, Voldemort had to research its past. I presume Dumbledore knew its past. And the facts surrounding its past are that, at least the last two times it changed possession, no one died. Gellert stole it from Gregorovich, and Dumbledore defeated Gellert in a non-fatal duel.

Voldemort decided to kill Snape in spite of these facts, of which he was cognizant. He could have simply defeated him; had Snape actually been Master of the Elder Wand, this would have sufficed to make Voldemort Master. Dumbledore is not psychic, and the action Voldemotr chose does not make the most sense from a utilitarian standpoint. It seems to me that Dumbledore believed that while Snape appeared to be a loyal and useful right-hand-man, Voldemort would let him live. It was an additional, unstated reason Dumbledore urged Snape to play hsi part well, as I see it.

I respect your view, but in both of the previous cases where the wand changed hands, the person was defeated (the wand taken from them) against their will. Voldemort thought Snape was his loyal servant and as such, would willingly give him the wand. Therefore any disarming or "defeat" would be fake and likely not function, from Voldemort's point of view. Dumbledore knew that as well. However, even if Voldemort was willing to try that, Dumbledore knew that it would not work because Snape would not be the master (Dumbledore's plan was that the power of the wand would die with him). Thus Voldemort would simply kill Snape when he saw that a 'defeat' or 'disarming' did not work. Therefore, Dumbledore knew that in the end, Voldemort would kill Snape in his quest to Master the wand, one way or the other.

The fact is, Voldemort did want Snape to live; he said 'I regret it' when Nagini attacked. But he was wise enough to know that a willing taking of the wand would not work (thus he did not give it to Snape to be defeated and allow him to live ~ that would have been too dangerous anyway).

Dumbledore was a compassionate man, but he simply behaved in a cold-hearted manner at times in order to further his plans.

Headless_Nick January 4th, 2008 11:30 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Dumbledore was a compassionate man, but he simply behaved in a cold-hearted manner at times in order to further his plans.
Agreed. He loved many people - proof being in his reaction to the drink he took when he and Harry were in the cave that the locket horcrux was in. [staff edit] But he also realised that he couldn't let his love get in the way of defeating Voldemort. The way I take it, Dumbledore is still a bit reckless in his own way, but learned many lessons after his relationship with Grindelwald, which ended disasterously.

Lightseer January 6th, 2008 2:35 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
I saw the character as a character that knew that something was going to happen. To me there is no set thing that was more important then the other lessons, but telling him about the prophecy was one of the most important, if i had to chose. And to me he should have talked to him more about the horcruxes.

When it was revealed about his family it made him seem more human. Because of those events he became Headmaster, and probably was the best thing because he saw more things as Headmaster.

Dumbledore probably saw similar ideas in him and that is why he becamse friends with him. It did not affect his ideas

Why did he keep it a secret? I don't know. Just because Rowling says he is gay now does not tell me that he was gay. She should have mentioned it in the book then we could say for a fact that he was gay.

Like i say it makes him sound more human. Maybe as Minister he would have done some good, but as Headmaster he was able to think ahead and figure out Voldermort's return. I think he chose wisely in not becoming Minister.
He expected way too much, although he was his destiny to do it. As for sacrificing Harry, he never asked him. Harry had to sacrifice himself or voldermort would never be truly gone.

Were there signs that he was gay, no. Remember that he may have been alone because of his actions with his sister and his life early on. Just because he was alone is not one of the signs.

If he was gay i don't care. All I can say is it is too late to say now that he is gay. If it was revealed at the end of the Star Wars that Luke was Darth Vader's son, would that not be considered late? Yep.

anabel January 7th, 2008 10:55 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 4882349)
Voldemort decided to kill Snape in spite of these facts, of which he was cognizant. He could have simply defeated him; had Snape actually been Master of the Elder Wand, this would have sufficed to make Voldemort Master. Dumbledore is not psychic, and the action Voldemotr chose does not make the most sense from a utilitarian standpoint. It seems to me that Dumbledore believed that while Snape appeared to be a loyal and useful right-hand-man, Voldemort would let him live. It was an additional, unstated reason Dumbledore urged Snape to play hsi part well, as I see it.

Yes - as we saw in DH, a simple Expelliarmus is enough to win a wand's allegiance. But I have a feeling that both Dumbledore and Snape knew and accepted the obvious risk involved in this situation.

The_Green_Woods January 7th, 2008 11:29 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by anabel (Post 4892583)
Yes - as we saw in DH, a simple Expelliarmus is enough to win a wand's allegiance. But I have a feeling that both Dumbledore and Snape knew and accepted the obvious risk involved in this situation.

I really don't think a simple expelliarmus would work, if the said witch or wizard was not willing to fight with the other. I also don't think Voldemort believed that Snape would allow him to win the wand ( Voldemort believed Snape to be very loyal to him and he also believed that Snape would never duel him in the manner that the Elder wand will switch masters); and winning the wand IMO is most essential to also win the wand's allegience. The wand will go over to the most powerful and it has to be won properly. Since Snape could not be defeated in the right way IMO, Voldemort killed him to become the true master of the Elder wand.

Quote:

posted by the LC Podcast
MA: But wand lore. Can you go into-- in a more detailed fashion, the way that the wands change hands and how different the Elder Wand is because fans are confused.

JKR: I am going to put up another update on my website about this, and I have one half-written. Essentially, I see wands as being quasi-sentient, you know? I think they awaken to a kind of-- They're not exactly animate but they're close to it. As close to it as you can get in an object because they carry so much magic. So that's really the key point about a wand. Now, the reactions will vary from wand to wand. The Elder Wand is simply the most dispassionate and ruthless of wands in that it will only take into consideration strength. So one would expect a certain amount of loyalty from one's wand. So even if you were disarmed while carrying it, even if you lost a fight while carrying it, it has developed an affinity with you that it will not give up easily. If, however, a wand is won, properly won in an adult duel, then a wand may switch allegiance, and it will certainly work better even if it hasn't fully switched allegiance for the person who won it. So that of course is what happens when Harry takes Draco's wand from him, and that's what happens when-- But you know what I mean. Oh, yeah, Ron. The blackthorn wand from the snatcher. So that would be sort of rough and ready, common, or garden, a wand favoring the person who had the skill to take it. It would favor them. However, the Elder Wand knows no loyalty except to strength. So it's completely unsentimental. It will only go where the power is. So if you win, then you've won the wand. So you don't need to kill with it. But, as is pointed out in the books, not least by Dumbledore because it is a wand of such immense power, almost inevitably, it attracts wizards who are prepared to kill and who will kill. And also it attracts wizards like Voldemort who confuse being prepared to murder with strength.

JN: Interesting.

JKR: Does that clarify anything?

JN: It did quite, and we look forward to reading your thing or two, I hopefully didn't...

MA: Step on it too badly.

JKR: No, I don't think so. I have been asked a lot of times, well what about Duelling Club and so on? Well I think it's clear there that in practice, where there's no real weight attached to the transference of a wand, where it's almost all for fun or purely for competition, there's no enormous significance attached in either wizard's mind to a wand flying out of someone's hand. But there are situations in which the emotional state of wizards where a lot hangs on a duel, that's something different. That's about real power and that's about transference that will have far-reaching effects in some cases. So I think the wand would behave differently then.

arithmancer January 7th, 2008 3:15 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by anabel (Post 4892583)
Yes - as we saw in DH, a simple Expelliarmus is enough to win a wand's allegiance. But I have a feeling that both Dumbledore and Snape knew and accepted the obvious risk involved in this situation.

You mean, you think Albus told Snape about the Elder Wand?

I do agree Snape generally accepted that Voldemort might kill him either pwing to suspicions about his loyalties, or for a supposed failure as a Death Eater, or in a rage over something, or for just some random unpredictable reason. But it did not seem to me that this particular source of danger, the significance Voldemort would see in the killing of Dumbledore, was one of which Dumbledore informed Snape.

The_Green_Woods January 7th, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

posted by zigirnius
But it did not seem to me that this particular source of danger, the significance Voldemort would see in the killing of Dumbledore, was one of which Dumbledore informed Snape.
Dumbledore I think would have understood the significance of Draco disarming him, right away or at the least after he died and became a portrait on the wall. Snape was with him the whole year and Dumbledore must have told him about the importance of the wand and the danger Snape would be in.

If Dumbledore did not want to then, he should have told Snape when his tomb was broken into and his wand stolen.

The fact he did not, to me suggests that he either intended Snape to die or he simply did not care. That is the first thing that gets to me.

And what I really don't get is how in the name of all that is good, did Dumbledore think, Harry would receive the most important information if Snape died before Harry got the memories.

That is the second query for which I have no answers.

arithmancer January 7th, 2008 3:49 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 4892596)
I really don't think a simple expelliarmus would work, if the said witch or wizard was not willing to fight with the other.


Dumbledore did not fight Draco. Draco Expelliarmused him. Draco was Master of the Elder Wand until Harry, in turn, disarmed him. So it seems to me that anabel is right.

You are certainly right that Voldemort believed he should to kill Snape to win the wand. My point was simply that this is false under the magical rules of the Potterverse. Further, the information Voldemort would need to gather before he could find the wand was sufficient for him to draw this conclusion. (Gellert Grindelwald did not duel Gregorovich for the wand, he stole the wand and then used it on Gregorovitch to cast a nonlethal spell and Voldemort saw this memory in his quest for the wand).

So I do not think we can say Dumbledore knew what Voldemort would do to Snape.

The_Green_Woods January 7th, 2008 4:24 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 4892716)
Dumbledore did not fight Draco. Draco Expelliarmused him. Draco was Master of the Elder Wand until Harry, in turn, disarmed him. So it seems to me that anabel is right.

You are certainly right that Voldemort believed he should to kill Snape to win the wand. My point was simply that this is false under the magical rules of the Potterverse. Further, the information Voldemort would need to gather before he could find the wand was sufficient for him to draw this conclusion. (Gellert Grindelwald did not duel Gregorovich for the wand, he stole the wand and then used it on Gregorovitch to cast a nonlethal spell and Voldemort saw this memory in his quest for the wand).

So I do not think we can say Dumbledore knew what Voldemort would do to Snape.

Draco used the expelliarmus in a life and death situation (which was a serious fight IMO) and Dumbledore at that time was very weak; weaker than Draco Malfoy, who was the stronger between the two.

Th Elder wand demands that the wizard be completely defeated in a serious duel and he be stronger between the two for the wand to switch masters.

Draco at that point was both IMO. He defeated Dumbledore in a life and death situation the wand recognizes, because they are semi - sentient and Draco was the stronger wizard; stronger to the dying Dumbledore.

That was why the wand chose him.

Harry simply twists the wand out of Malfoy's hands along with the other 2 wands. Not even an expelliarmus and Harry is the new owner of the Elder wand, because he has physically disarmed Draco Malfoy in a situation of life and death; one the wand recognized and accepted because Harry defeated Draco and he was the stronger wizard at that time.

So it is not the spell IMO, but once again I think its the intent and the seriousness of the situation and the magical strength of the of persons involved that decides the exchange.

And I also think Dumbledore knw all this.

Drusilla January 7th, 2008 4:33 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Hello...can everyone try discussing Dumbledore's character more, and the specifics of wandlore and wand loyalty a little less?
Thank you, and happy posting!

The_Green_Woods January 7th, 2008 5:26 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Dumbledore, I think, must have known about the Elder wand and I think he must have also known enough about wand lore. He must have also known that no one apart from him knew the importance of Draco disarming him. The Elder wand had changed masters because Draco had disarmed him in a situation the wand recognized.

He has been with Snape for almost a year, before Snape was killed. He also knew Voldemort had broken into his tomb and stolen the wand. He also knew that Voldemort had no idea about Draco and would kill Snape to become the master of a wand with which he wanted to defeat Harry Potter.

Dumbledore also knew that Snape would have never made Voldemort aware that he knew about the Elder wand; he was an Occlumens who had been cheatoing Voldemort for so long. Had Dumbledore informed Snape, Snape would have been a lot more cautious and would have used the time he had to prepare a reason for Voldemort and would have tried to survive.

In any case I think the choice should have been Snape's not Dumbledore's. And yet Dumbledore has once again made a huge mistake that I believe cost the life of a man who slaved for him and his Order for the last 18 years.

Did Dumbledore not care like with the 7 Potters or he intended to play it safe and kill off Snape so that Voldemort would mistakenly think he was the owner of the wand when he would not be?

I don't know, but to me Dumbledore's actions in this circumstance was pretty cold.

Just my Opinion.

wickedwickedboy January 7th, 2008 8:19 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 4892815)
I don't know, but to me Dumbledore's actions in this circumstance was pretty cold. Just my Opinion.

I agree. But JKR described Dumbledore's character as written to be machiavellian at times. That he was shown at times to be subtly unscrupulous, cunning, deceptive and dishonest. I believe he acted that way on page with Harry, Snape, Remus, Kingsley, Hermione, Fudge, Ron and others. In OOTP, Dumbledore admitted that at times, the lives of others were immaterial in comparison with Harry's. So that was a part of Dumbledore's character legacy. On the other hand, he was also shown to be very compassionate with Harry, Snape (at his turning), Remus (allowing him to attend Hogwarts), Draco (showing mercy), etc. He also showed kindness to many people, was very understanding and forgiving and tried to reason with people - to a point - and then he'd finally lose it. He was also deeply dedicated to the greater good.

So in Dumbledore I see a very grey character. In the end, his struggle resulted in ridding the world of a great evil and allowing those left to go forward and make the wizard world a happy place. :)

arithmancer January 7th, 2008 8:50 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 4892815)
Dumbledore also knew that Snape would have never made Voldemort aware that he knew about the Elder wand; he was an Occlumens who had been cheatoing Voldemort for so long.

I am complying with the in-thread warning about wands, so I will respond only to this point. I disagree Dumbledore believed this of Snape. He says differently in his conversation with Snape following their argument in the Forest. He states to Snape that he will not tell him what Harry is up to (in other words, he will not tell Snape about Horcruxes) because of the danger of Snape's position, 'dangling on Voldemort's arm'. I believe this is also why Dumbledore did not tell Snape about the Elder Wand. It was information he did not want Voldemort to get in the event that Snape somehow betrayed himself or became suspected by Voldemort for other reasons.

It's not that he did not trust Snape's good intentions or his skill. Just that, if something went wrong in spite of these, Snape was completely vulnerable to Voldemort in his position as a spy.

The_Green_Woods January 8th, 2008 2:12 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

posted by zigirnius
It's not that he did not trust Snape's good intentions or his skill. Just that, if something went wrong in spite of these, Snape was completely vulnerable to Voldemort in his position as a spy.
DUmbledore knew about the Elder wand and its logistics and also that he knew Voldemort would think of the Elder wand because of his wand and Harry's having the same core.

If Dumbledore knew then agreeing with all you say, at the time, his tomb was broken into, was the time Dumbledore should have known with a certainity that Snape would be killed, sooner or later, because Voldemort will confront him and fight him to defeat him or kill him to become master of the wand.

I think Dumbledore must have told Snape at least when his tomb was broken into and given Snape a warning about the importance of that action. But for whatever reason, he does not and Snape dies.

I started this point about the wands, because IMO DUmbledore, as he said in the HBP, made yet another huge mistake, one that cost him Snape, and had Harry not been so lucky, would not have the memories to ultimately defeat Voldemort.

Again, I think it's Dumbledore being so alone at the top without anyone who was his equal to discuss with him.

I also agree with wickedwickedboy that Dumbledore was a grey character and I also think he acted only as a leader when he did not tell Snape and IMO he deliberately sacrificed Snape all for the greater good!

I only differ from Dumbledore's point of view, in the sense, I feel he should have told Snape about the danger to his life and he should have also had a back up plan in case Snape would die before Harry got the memories, before some how all the horcruxes were destroyed and Harry managed to kill Voldemort and reduce him o a sprit like state once more.

He made a mistake as a leader I feel in both instances.

SusanBones January 8th, 2008 2:35 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 4893381)
I also agree with wickedwickedboy that Dumbledore was a grey character and I also think he acted only as a leader when he did not tell Snape and IMO he deliberately sacrificed Snape all for the greater good!

I only differ from Dumbledore's point of view, in the sense, I feel he should have told Snape about the danger to his life and he should have also had a back up plan in case Snape would die before Harry got the memories, before some how all the horcruxes were destroyed and Harry managed to kill Voldemort and reduce him o a sprit like state once more.

He made a mistake as a leader I feel in both instances.

I think that this was the way Dumbledore treated most of his Order members. He acted for the greater good many times, and put people in danger because of it. Snape was put in an extremely dangerous position many times. Dumbledore needed Snape to play this role for the greater good.

Dumbledore gave Lupin a dangerous mission with the werewolves. Hagrid had to try to talk the giants into joinging their side. And then we have the Order members who risked their lives to get Harry out of Privet Drive. They took on that job not knowing that the Death Eaters were waiting for them. There are a lot of things that Dumbledore did for the greater good that bother me because they seem almost cold and calculating. It was a Dumbledore that I never knew existed until DH. I am not exactly comfortable with the real Dumbledore. That is just how I feel about it.

The_Green_Woods January 8th, 2008 3:05 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SusanBones (Post 4893407)
I think that this was the way Dumbledore treated most of his Order members. He acted for the greater good many times, and put people in danger because of it. Snape was put in an extremely dangerous position many times. Dumbledore needed Snape to play this role for the greater good.

Dumbledore gave Lupin a dangerous mission with the werewolves. Hagrid had to try to talk the giants into joinging their side. And then we have the Order members who risked their lives to get Harry out of Privet Drive. They took on that job not knowing that the Death Eaters were waiting for them. There are a lot of things that Dumbledore did for the greater good that bother me because they seem almost cold and calculating. It was a Dumbledore that I never knew existed until DH. I am not exactly comfortable with the real Dumbledore. That is just how I feel about it.

I agree with most of the points in your post. I only differ by saying that all the others knew of the dangers they faced.

Remus knew of the danger when he went to the werewolves. Hagrid knew, too that he could get clobbered by the giants.

Even Snape knew he could get killed anytime Voldemort got a question about Snape's loyalty into his head. I agree with all this.

But all members of the Order knew what they were getting into when they went out on Order missions. They agreed to do so; agreed with Dumbledore and agreed to put their lives on the line for the greater good of the WW.

In this case of the Elder wand. Snape was not given that information.

I feel he should have for 2 reasons. One, it should have been Snape's choice. Snape should have known that he could get himself killed because of the Elder wand. Dumbledore knew Snape would be killed when he died supposedly at Snape's hand or at the least when his tomb was broken into and his wand stolen.

Two, it would have given Snaqpe the time to prepare another way to hand over the memories to Harry in a way Harry would believe him.

So I think he allowed Snape to die and he also did not make any provision about how to get the memories across to Harry if Snape was killed before he could complete that job.

SusanBones January 8th, 2008 3:36 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 4893437)
In this case of the Elder wand. Snape was not given that information.

I feel he should have for 2 reasons. One, it should have been Snape's choice. Snape should have known that he could get himself killed because of the Elder wand. Dumbledore knew Snape would be killed when he died supposedly at Snape's hand or at the least when his tomb was broken into and his wand stolen.

Two, it would have given Snape the time to prepare another way to hand over the memories to Harry in a way Harry would believe him.

So I think he allowed Snape to die and he also did not make any provision about how to get the memories across to Harry if Snape was killed before he could complete that job.

I agree with you that Snape was placed in a very dangerous position because of the Elder Wand. And I feel that Dumbledore took advantage of Snape in this circumstance. But Snape had to have known that by agreeing to kill Dumbledore in the first place he would be in an extremely dangerous situation. He would know that the good guys would be after him for the murder. The only thing that would be new to him would be that Voldemort may kill him for the wand. And it could just be that Snape would have been willing to do what he did even if he knew about the Elder Wand. But I agree with you that Snape should have been given a choice.

I agree with you that Dumbledore should have made better plans to get the information to Harry. But maybe there was a backup plan that wasn't needed. Maybe Dumbledore's portrait could have given that information to Harry. I thought that there were many things that were left to chance. Dumbledore left Harry to figure out a lot of stuff on his own.

The_Green_Woods January 8th, 2008 3:54 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SusanBones (Post 4893465)
But maybe there was a backup plan that wasn't needed. Maybe Dumbledore's portrait could have given that information to Harry. I thought that there were many things that were left to chance. Dumbledore left Harry to figure out a lot of stuff on his own.

Assuming Snape died, again, IMO 2 things would have happened. One ; The Headmaster's office would have closed down because it was the death eaters who were running the School. Like with Umbridge. Dumbledore's portrait too would have been shut inside the office. We don't know if Dumbledore had another portrait elsewhere and I am assuming here that he did not have a portrait anywhere else.

Second; the head master's office would be open with the Carrows in charge or some other DE in charge. In both cases Harry would not be able to access Dumbledore's portrait. This is what I think would have happened, because Voldemort would make the noffice open and palce another DE there. I don't think he would take it like Umbridge who went into a fit and then stromed off.

The only other option I see is Phineas's portrait. Dumbeldore would have to tell through Phineas that Harry must be killed to save the others. But I don't know how that would work though, if there would be a DE in the headmaster's office all the time.


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