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wolfbrother April 18th, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Well, I don't think Harry handled it very well in OOTP when he overheard Moody. Maybe DD didn't tell based on that. Even though Harry would have worried about surviving in DH, IMO he would have been clinging on to the hope that somehow he would make it. I am interested in knowing how Ron and Hermione would have reacted if they knew.

Klio April 18th, 2008 5:12 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
There is one reason I can think of for not telling Harry that he had a chance to survive .... I am not sure whether this was Dumbledore's reason, but here it is:

If Harry had a notion that he could survive because, basically, Voldemort had turned himself into Harry's horcrux, he would not go into the forest with the definive plan to sacrifice himself. This, one might argue, was important, however, because after harry sacrificed himself willingly, expecting to die, and accepting that he'd lose his life, everyone was given that blood protection that Harry had received through Lily's sacrifice. Had Harry expected survival I assume that magic would not have been possible.


Even if this is the case (and I am not sure whether DD planned it or whether it just happened) I feel rather bad about Dumbledore not telling Harry. It just seems wrong. With responsibilities you should also get rights - and in this case the responsibility of saving the world (so to speak) should at least come with the right to know everything there is to know about the matter, especially something that so personally concerns Harry.

I even feel bad about Dumbledore making it so hard for Harry to track down the Deathly Hallows story, because (and he says so openly at King's Cross) he thought Harry might be sidetracked. I really think that really wasn't a fair assessment. Harry did in fact almost get sidetracked, but that was rather because it was so hard to piece the whole thing together!


So, all in all, I can understand that DD had to plan for Harry's sacrifice (what choice did he have, with Harry being V's accidental Horcrux) - but from COS at the latest he should have known that he could start filling in harry on at least some of the details, and really, at the end of GOF Harry deserved more thqan just that 'gleam of triumph' in DD's eyes. He deserved a full explanation of the implications, IMHO - and that should have been clear to DD at that moment.

Following from that, Harry should have been handled much better in OOTP.... DD should again have tackled the problem of Harry's connection to Voldemort head-on, instead of not daring to look Harry in the eye for a year. Is that how a Gryffindor behaves? And the Legillimency lessons could have been organsied in a more leisurely manner, and who knows, they may even have worked out with Snape, if there had been more time and less pressure.

kittling May 1st, 2008 3:40 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
One thing has been troubling me about Dumbledore recently.

He is the first wizard to meet Tom Riddle. It is fairly clear from Albusís own words that he is troubled by Tomís use of magic, and seeís Tom as an already very damaged person who is in danger of heading down the wrong path. He also tells us that Tom tryís to isolate himself and be self reliant.
I find this description of a 10 year old child troubling, and from what Albus says he seems to think it worrying too.

So what does he do? Nothing!

I find that disturbing Ė he watches from a distance but never tryís to build a relationship with him & IMO he is the only one who has a chance to build a relationship that may be of help to Tom. He has seen a side of Tom that he will not let others see Ė itís Tomís only chance to have a relationship that has a possibility of being genuine. The ones he builds with everyone else have a manipulative edge to them.

So why didnít Dumbledore do something to help this child. He goes out of his way to build a relationship with Harry, so why not Tom? How does he feel about his inaction now, in hindsight? Could he have actually stopped everything from beginning? Is that why he formed the Order of the Phoenix? Is that why the Phoenix is such an important symbol for him, continually rising from the ashes of his own mistakes??? :hmm:

I donít know Ė Iím not getting very far with this on my own, so I thought Iíd ask for some feed back; thoughts, comments, ideas - anyone?

Pearl_Took May 1st, 2008 4:36 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kittling (Post 5010871)
So why didnít Dumbledore do something to help this child. He goes out of his way to build a relationship with Harry, so why not Tom? How does he feel about his inaction now, in hindsight?

Exactly the same thing occurred to me when I re-read DH.

It is extremely obvious that Tom is a very, very damaged and disturbed child -- already a sociopath at such a young age. DD's inaction on this bothers me greatly too. If he couldn't help Tom, nobody could ... and he doesn't even attempt to try. :( There is something very cold about Albus at times ... I often feel this in his manipulating of Snape and Harry.

In no way am I an Albus-basher. I even like Albus. On occasion. :p It's what he is meant to be, and how he fails to measure up against it, that gets my goat. :p

It does make him a fascinating literary creation. :) But it doesn't make me want to trust him as a person. :whistle:

Harry, of course, idolises Albus and looks up to him as a father figure throughout the series. Harry's trust in Albus always touches me ... Harry is so naive in so many ways! Dumbledore's man through and through, indeed.

I can't help thinking that Harry's feelings would have matured and changed, after the King's Cross revelations. He never stopped loving Albus, though; why else would he name his son after him? :)

Quote:

Could he have actually stopped everything from beginning? Is that why he formed the Order of the Phoenix? Is that why the Phoenix is such an important symbol for him, continually rising from the ashes of his own mistakes??? :hmm:
What a fascinating notion! Whether or not JKR intended this, I like it. :cool:

kittling May 1st, 2008 4:45 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
I'm so relieved I'm not the only person who has thought this! I kinda like Dumbledore - I prefer him as a person with human failings, than the uber great guy I sometimes think Harry see's him as. :)

Another thought occurred to me - doesn't Albus say something about often neglect does worse damage than actual mistreatment? Could he be referring to his treatment of Tom here - in an oblique way??

Pearl_Took May 1st, 2008 5:00 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kittling (Post 5010900)
I prefer him as a person with human failings, than the uber great guy I sometimes think Harry see's him as. :)

My feelings exactly. :cool: :)

Quote:

Another thought occurred to me - doesn't Albus say something about often neglect does worse damage than actual mistreatment? Could he be referring to his treatment of Tom here - in an oblique way??
That does ring a bell ... can't remember where he says it ... but, yep, could be.

arithmancer May 1st, 2008 5:12 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
OotP'But that's OK, is it?' yelled Harry, ignoring the scandalised faces and disapproving mutterings of the portraits on the walls. 'It's OK for Snape to hate my dad, but it's not OK for Sirius to hate Kreacher?'

'Sirius did not hate Kreacher,' said Dumbledore. 'He regarded him as a servant unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike . . . the fountain we destroyed tonight told a lie. We wizards have mis-treated and abused our fellows for too long, and we are now reaping our reward.'

Leslie33 May 2nd, 2008 6:10 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
1. What are your general thoughts on Dumbledore as a character through books 1-7? He became more impatient with Harry and other Students. As he got older. He expected Harry to learn things quickly, accept the information as he was told, and also withheld information from him. Even though he understood it was wrong and belittling to Harry, he still did this in OOTP. He then got angry when Harry questioned him for trusting Snape and expected Harry to be a "Good little boy" and stop asking questions. Do you see a difference in his behavior and/or actions between the books? Yes, in GOF, he became forgetful and became more frustrated.

2. Throughout the books, Dumbledore seems to always be teaching Harry something, but his lessons are sometimes hidden and subtle. What do you believe are the most important lessons Dumbledore taught Harry? Oh boy, there are so many, it's hard to remember them. I think the main one was to be patient with your Elders. They have a certain way of doing things and you need to accept that. He also taught Harry that you need to respect your Elders or people of Authority. For example his insistence that Harry call Severus Professor Snape. Even if Harry hated him, the fact that he was an Authorty figure alone demanded he address him as "Professor" Snape, not "Snape" or "The Greasy Haired Jerk". Just like you teach your kids they should call a Police Officer "Officer", your Physician "Doctor", unless he's specifically given permission to use their first name, etc. Did Dumbledore adequately prepare Harry for the trials that lie ahead in book 7? No, not really. Which, as horrible as it may sound, is a good thing. Harry needed to learn to trust other people and rely on himself to come up with the intelligence, knowledge and courage to face the challanges in Deathly Hallows. Harry had to learn to trust other people, like Snape(even after his death) to gain the final amount of courage to face Voldemort and not run and hide. Is there anything you think Dumbledore should have told Harry before he died? Not really. Maybe he could have given Harry a little information as to why he trusted Snape, other than "I trust him, so you should too". At the same time, it would have really betrayed the trust Severus had in him. Also, Harry needed to learn why Albus trusted Snape in his own way. This way he would see the truth and have that "Now I know why" as opposed to Albus telling him. Seeing the truth the way he did spoke so much more loudly than Albus going behind Snape's back and saying "Okay, here is why".

3. What did you think of the revelations of DH regarding Dumbledore's family? I thought it was really tragic and I could understand Albus' frustration, his anger, his bitterness and his "hatred" toward his Sister. I know he loved her to pieces, but in a way, I understand how he could blame her for his problems. You know that "If she was normal, I'd be free" etc. I can understand his blaming Aberforth for abandoning him and leaving him, a 16 year-old stuck with a sick child. In his eyes, Aberforth got away scot free, he could take off and be able to live his life while Albus was forced into babysitting a sick child. So I could understand him getting so frustrated that he'd want to lash out and make a statement. Something so people would notice him as opposed to his little Sister. How did these tragedies effect the person he is now? Well, he realized he was mistaken, that he wasn't as tough as he thought he was. He also gained that rare gift to see the good in people. That is why he gave Severus Snape a second chance, but at the same time wasn't going to let him wander off, slinking with his tail between his legs. He saw Severus was genuinely remorseful for his actions, but wasn't going to leave it at that. He wanted Snape to learn from his mistakes and to prove himself correct in trusting him.

4. Why do you think Dumbledore and Grindelwald were friends? They were safe to lash out, to act up. They were also safe to be a couple of Bad A*# kids. How did Dumbledore's homosexuality affect his susceptibility to Grindelwald's ideas? I honestly don't think this affected anything.

5. Was Dumbledore right to keep so many secrets from so many people? Because he didn't want to be judged. Albus was terrified at being judged for being weak, a disgrace to society, that old "you should be in jail". Basically, he didn't want people to pass judgement before they had a chance to get to know him, sit and look at the whole story and read between the lines. Was this secrecy because of his sister? Yes, a part of it. Look at how those Boys bullied her. If they were bad, can you imagine how badly she'd be treated by Witches and Wizards. Because of his own homosexuality? Maybe.

6. What do you think of Dumbledore's recognition of his own failings? Very courageous. It takes a lot of guts and courage to stand up and say "I did this and I take full responsibility. I was wrong, I really hurt this person". His decision not to enter the Ministry? With the way people are and how judgemental they are, he made the right decision. They would have made things which didn't concern anybody everybody's business.

7. Do you think Dumbledore expected too much from Harry? Yes. He put way too much responsibility on the shoulders of a Child who was already broken. Snape had it correct when he said Albus was raising Harry as Pig for slaughter. Did he do the right thing? In some ways yes, in another, he was very lucky Harry was able to kill Voldemort and live, I mean really live on to get Married and have a beautiful Family and experience the joy of life. Was it fair to ask Harry to sacrifice himself? Absolutely not!!!

8. Does the revelation of his homosexuality ultimately affect his character? Absolutely not. What actions, if any, do you see differently now? Maybe a few statements he made, but I can't recall them at the moment.

Yoana May 15th, 2008 2:32 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
From Severus's thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5026174)
However, that was not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to show that Dumbledore could have told Snape the whole truth and (about the Horcrux), and gained his acceptance to the plan, but he did not wish to do so at that time, imo.

My understanding is that Albus never wanted to tell anyone about his suspicion that Harry could be a Horcrux - I think he estimated that the risks of this reaching Harry's ears, or Voldemorts, if he ever told anyone, were too big to consider.

Actually... I don't think he knew Harry could be a Horcrux at the time this conversation took place. Didn't he say he started suspecting the whole Horcrux plan when Harry told him about the diary?

wickedwickedboy May 15th, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yoana (Post 5026183)
My understanding is that Albus never wanted to tell anyone about his suspicion that Harry could be a Horcrux - I think he estimated that the risks of this reaching Harry's ears, or Voldemorts, if he ever told anyone, were too big to consider.

I totally agree. I was making a different point solely about Dumbledore's manipulation tactics. My other point about the horcrux was a completely "what if" scenario that could not have happened based on the storyline. :lol:

Quote:

Actually... I don't think he knew Harry could be a Horcrux at the time this conversation took place. Didn't he say he started suspecting the whole Horcrux plan when Harry told him about the diary?
Well in DH he says he knew all along because he 'understood love' as Voldemort did not and valued the whole matter enough to look into it. That was how he figured out Harry was a horcrux.

Yoana May 15th, 2008 3:24 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5026199)
Well in DH he says he knew all along because he 'understood love' as Voldemort did not and valued the whole matter enough to look into it. That was how he figured out Harry was a horcrux.

Yeah, but since Harry used the phrase "all along", it most likely means the period from Harry's coming to Hogwarts. I don't know, Dumbledore says that when Harry described the diary to him, he thought it was something much more sinister; and he didn't even have a clue that there were other Horcruxes until he registered the careless way with which Voldemort dealt with the diary. So it was in Harry's second year that he got the idea about the multiple Horcruxes.

wickedwickedboy May 16th, 2008 1:09 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
I respect your interpretation, but Dumbledore not knowing that there were other horcruxes is evidence in itself that he knew Harry was a horcrux from the night his parents were killed, otherwise he would not have known that Voldemort would return, imo. We know he knew because he told Snape that Voldemort would return right after the Potter's had died and Voldemort had been wiped out the first time.

Yoana May 16th, 2008 10:18 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5026834)
I respect your interpretation, but Dumbledore not knowing that there were other horcruxes is evidence in itself that he knew Harry was a horcrux from the night his parents were killed, otherwise he would not have known that Voldemort would return, imo. We know he knew because he told Snape that Voldemort would return right after the Potter's had died and Voldemort had been wiped out the first time.

Well... I guess you're right. There's no other way he could've returned from the dead. So the "all along guessing" must have started with Harry's survival. Thanks for clarifying it for me! :)

GriseldatheGood June 5th, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Additional evidence for the representation of Dumbledore as not-so-nice:
I think he knew about Quirrell from the start. He was the one that told Harry in HBP that nobody had occupied the DADA post for more than a year since Voldemort cursed it; thirty odd years, and even other people had noticed and seemed to think the position was cursed. Well, it seems apparent that Quirrell was an exception. Hagrid said he took a year off to get some practical experience; this could either refer to time off from teaching or time between being a Hogwarts student or theoretical researcher and taking up a teaching post. Dumbledore does tell Tom that experience is necessary for the job. However, we know it was the former because Quirrell was not introduced at the welcoming feast; even when Snape changes subject this is mentioned at the feast. Quirrell must have been the Defense teacher before his year off.

Now there are a few possible explanations.
1) Voldemort worded his curse in such a way that nobody but himself could occupy the post for more than a year.
2) Voldemort knew how to get past the curse; he was the one who set it, after all.
3) The curse recognized Quirrell and Quirrell-with-Voldemort as two different professors.

Dumbledore, the brilliant strategist, had all the evidence that Quirrell wasn't Quirrell staring him in the face. At the very least he might have suspected a polyjuiced imposter. At the most he might have known all along where Voldemort was. So why did he let the situation happen? Did he somehow know it was going to come out all right? Did he decide it was a gamble worth taking merely to get Harry some practical experience?

The_Green_Woods June 6th, 2008 5:50 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 5026834)
I respect your interpretation, but Dumbledore not knowing that there were other horcruxes is evidence in itself that he knew Harry was a horcrux from the night his parents were killed, otherwise he would not have known that Voldemort would return, imo. We know he knew because he told Snape that Voldemort would return right after the Potter's had died and Voldemort had been wiped out the first time.

I think Dumbledore knew Voldemort had created a horcrux, but he was not certain that Voldemort had made more than one. He suspected, though. In PS, Hagrid tells Harry that Dumbledore always felt that voldemort was not dead and would return. So I think Dumbeldore knew that Voldemort would return.

As far as Harry being a horcrux, I think there are many possibilities. One Dumbledore could have known the night of the Sorting when the Hat may have told him about the twin personalities inside Harry; in COS when harry could speak Parseltongue and surely by GOF, when Harry could see through Voldemort's eyes. I think Dumbledore was almost certain by GOF, so he must have known about Harry before that and about horcruxes many years before GOF.

dredrizzle11 June 7th, 2008 6:39 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
At the end of the book I think Dumbledore's intentions and plans came together for me. While I might not have agreed with all of them I certainly saw his reasons for them. I do not believe he used Harry but rather just helped Harry accomplish something by giving him the necessary tools. Withholding information was an issue but I think in the end that made Harry stronger by instilling him with a curiosity that he might not have had if he was just given information. As far as his homosexuality I'm not really sure about all that. JKR did come out and say he was gay but had she not I would have thought that maybe he was just attracted to power rather than anything so sexual. Ultimately, DH made me like Dumbledore more. It showed that like any hero, he is also flawed. To me, he became more real and thus more iconic.

DeathlyH June 7th, 2008 6:46 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dredrizzle11 (Post 5050195)
At the end of the book I think Dumbledore's intentions and plans came together for me. While I might not have agreed with all of them I certainly saw his reasons for them. I do not believe he used Harry but rather just helped Harry accomplish something by giving him the necessary tools. Withholding information was an issue but I think in the end that made Harry stronger by instilling him with a curiosity that he might not have had if he was just given information. As far as his homosexuality I'm not really sure about all that. JKR did come out and say he was gay but had she not I would have thought that maybe he was just attracted to power rather than anything so sexual. Ultimately, DH made me like Dumbledore more. It showed that like any hero, he is also flawed. To me, he became more real and thus more iconic.

I disagree. I firmly believe that Dumbledore was using Harry. He made Harry think that he would be safe at the end, convinced him that destroying the Horcruxes would be all that was necesary. He never told him that he had to die for it until the very end. IMO that's definitely using a person.

I don't think withholding information from him made Harry stronger at all. It only made him more frustrated, and made his quest harder than necesary. It seems that after the famous "gleam of triumph" in GOF, Dumbledore realized that Harry would [b]not/B] die from Voldemort using the AK, and the Horcrux would be destroyed. So why not tell Harry that before he started? The fact that he would die but be able to come back to life wouldn't completely scare Harry out of his wits. If Dumbledore is able to tell him gently and convince him that he will not be harmed at all by "dying," then Harry is much more informed going in and doesn't recieve such a shock when he learns he does have to die.

wickedwickedboy June 7th, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
I agree. I see no reason to overlook what Dumbledore did. Imo, he behaved in a terrible manner toward Harry. Imo, he placed his own goals ahead of the child's life from birth and for 14 years, he planned to send him off to Voldemort to die. Imo, Dumbledore felt like it was his right to make a sacrificial hero of Harry and imo, that was just absolutely wrong.

James and Lily gave their lives son their son could live and they lucked out; he did live. Imo, what Dumbledore did was make a sham of their sacrifice with his plans and he also added to Harry's burden. Harry was already an orphan and if that was not bad enough, Dumbledore placed him with the Dursleys and did nothing to protect him from their abuse - either unknowingly or uncaringly and either way, it speaks poorly of Dumbledore. Then he brought him along to Hogwarts and allowed a professor to dish out even more negative treatment on Harry, including the belittling of his dead father. Imo, Dumbledore was terribly neglectful and wrongful to allow the abuse, and that life he made Harry suffer, combined with the plans he had for the child when he grew up, showed Dumbledore to have behaved in a manipulative and rather disgraceful manner, imo.

FurryDice June 7th, 2008 11:57 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DeathlyH (Post 5050207)
I don't think withholding information from him made Harry stronger at all. It only made him more frustrated, and made his quest harder than necesary. It seems that after the famous "gleam of triumph" in GOF, Dumbledore realized that Harry would [b]not/B] die from Voldemort using the AK, and the Horcrux would be destroyed. So why not tell Harry that before he started? The fact that he would die but be able to come back to life wouldn't completely scare Harry out of his wits. If Dumbledore is able to tell him gently and convince him that he will not be harmed at all by "dying," then Harry is much more informed going in and doesn't recieve such a shock when he learns he does have to die.

The thing is, though, Harrys' "death" was only effective in keeping others safe because he believed it was for real - had he known otherwise, it would have negated the sacrifice. For that reason, Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry he would have to die and come back. Maybe a lot of what he did was manipulative, but he was a general fighting a war, a war the Ministry couldn't fight, and he had to make difficult decisions, like any leader in war. Having said that, I believe he did care for Harry- otherwise, why go to the trouble of the Hallows to give Harry a chance to survive another AK?

As for the Dursleys, Harry had to stay there because of Lilys' blood protection, we know that, although I do think he could have had a little HBP-style chat with them earlier - Moody, Tonks and co. did it at the end of OotP and the Dursleys left Harry alone in his room during his short stay after that.

DeathlyH June 8th, 2008 12:07 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FurryDice (Post 5050643)
The thing is, though, Harrys' "death" was only effective in keeping others safe because he believed it was for real - had he known otherwise, it would have negated the sacrifice. For that reason, Dumbledore couldn't tell Harry he would have to die and come back. Maybe a lot of what he did was manipulative, but he was a general fighting a war, a war the Ministry couldn't fight, and he had to make difficult decisions, like any leader in war. Having said that, I believe he did care for Harry- otherwise, why go to the trouble of the Hallows to give Harry a chance to survive another AK?

I don't think that's true, though. Harry's sacrifice was effective no matter what, because he came back to life. He would have come back to life no matter what because 1. the Elder Wand wouldn't kill its Master and 2. Lily's sacrifice was in Voldemort, so Harry could die and come back again and again, although it would be unnecesary after the first time when the Horcrux was removed.

I'm confused, why would Harry knowing that he would be able to come back anyways make his sacrifice not effective?


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