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-   -   Batman 2: The Dark Knight (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=112881)

IenjoyAcidPops July 23rd, 2008 9:15 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
This is definitely an impressive movie; lived up to the hype 100%. And that's not me saying "GREATEST MOVIE EVER", because I've seen plenty of better movies, but it is a totally entertaining, highly intense, and always compelling superhero epic.

The cast assembled or reassembled here is just tremendous. Now, there's probably nothing to say about Heath Ledger that hasn't already been said, but I'll say it anyway: he's incredible here. What's great about his Joker is that he's not explained; he's not given a set origin story or backstory (he does give himself 2 or 3...), he's not rationalized, there's no "who is this guy" mystery going on here. He just is. And it's a really unpredictable, mannered, unsettling performance, full of weird little touches (the way he hits the 'T' in "No, I'm not", the way he licks his lips...). I also think the difference between Ledger's and Nicholson's turns is being somewhat overstated; their interpretations are, of course, very different, but they both achieve an excellent balance between genuine menace and dark humor. And both have what I think any Joker story needs to work: the element of guilty laughter - if you're laughing with him at some point, and then feeling kind of bad right afterward. An example for Nicholson would be when he asks Bob for his gun and then shoots him on the spot, and asks his men for a moment or two alone. An example for Ledger would be when Gordon asks where Dent is, and Mr. J says "Me? I've been right here! Who did you leave him with?" So I just mean to say that both turns are successful for some of the same reasons, but Ledger's Joker is a brillaint, unique take on the role, moment after unforgettable moment. Rightly so, he's getting pretty much all of the attention, but Christian Bale, Aaron Eckhart, and Gary Oldman are just as good; Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman are clearly having a great time shining in their reliable supporting roles; and Maggie Gyllenhaal is an improvement over Katie Holmes as Rachel, although I feel like I'm the only one who didn't hate Katie Holmes in the part.
Spoiler: show
Loved the Two-Face makeup too - don't know if anyone here's read The Long Halloween, but it looks straight ot of a Tim Sale panel to me.


I think this is the first Batman movie that really works as an action movie. One of my few issues with Batman Begins was that the fight scenes (after Batman's first appearance - I could understand the approach then) were just at too fast a clip, too unclear. That problem was rectified here; things are clearer, sharper, and there are actually "applause moments" in this one.
Spoiler: show
(Speaking of "applause moments", two stand out: when the Gordon hits the lights in the interrogation room and Batman appears right behind The Joker, and when Gordon makes his comeback after his supposed death. Now, I didn't for a second believe Gordon was dead, but taht was a great moment.)
Also, I appreciate that a new vehicle - the "Batpod" - was brought in without feeling like it's just around to sell toys.

A problem I had with the last film that was carried over here is that...well, I know there IS a "Batman theme", but I sure can't remember it (certainly can't hum it). It's disappointing that with Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard collaborating that these aren't more distinctive scores.

Overall, it's the best movie I've seen The Return of the King; the best Batman movie to date (with Mask of The Phantasm a close second).

SoulOfRebirth July 23rd, 2008 10:06 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Quote:

On the subject of this not being a superhero movie - this is directed at SoulOfRebirth - I understand where you're coming from. However, being unconventional and decidedly un-superhero-like is one of the things I love most about Batman. He doesn't have any powers, so he has to work that much harder to overthrow his various nemeses - sometimes without results, as exemplified by The Joker. And the isolation he feels is more poignant, because this crime-fighting thing is something he chose, something that he brought on himself willingly, as opposed to being something he was thrust into by way of mutations or radioactive contact that gave him uncanny abilities. It seems to me like the things that you dislike about the Christopher Nolan interpretation of Batman - the realism, the grittiness, the un-comic-book-like atmosphere - are the exact things that I love most about it. I'm not a comic book / superhero fan in general - which I'm guessing you are - so I guess that's one of the reasons why this appeals to me so much. One of the things my father used to tell me is that most of the disappointments in life are the result of unmet expectations. You went into this movie expecting one thing, were given another, and were disappointed as a result. I understand completely, even though I don't agree. I went into this movie expecting exactly what was there, and was overjoyed with what I saw.
I suppose at heart my issue is that I loved the movie but hate the world's reaction to it. Basically everyone has walked away from this movie chanting the mantra that "True Art Is Angsty" when I just don't think that's true. Just because this movie was darker and more violent than other superhero movies doesn't mean it was better. Anyone can throw sepia tones over a cityscape and call it "art."

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If you don't mind my asking, how did you feel about the previous movie, 'Batman Begins?' Because the atmosphere and muted theatrics - the chief complaints that you had about this one - were there as well. I'm just wondering why, if you'd seen the previous movie (whether you enjoyed it or not) you were so surprised by the direction this one took.
I actually never saw it. Now that I think about it, I don't know how I missed it. Maybe something else came out at the same time and I forgot.

Quote:

A problem I had with the last film that was carried over here is that...well, I know there IS a "Batman theme", but I sure can't remember it (certainly can't hum it). It's disappointing that with Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard collaborating that these aren't more distinctive scores.
I think for the most part the music (or near-absence thereof) did its job; none of the villains would have been menacing if the score hadn't been tense at all the right moments. But you're right, it does need better themes. Though I wouldn't say Hans Zimmer is really known for coming up with any memorable scores. But I don't know anything about James Newton Howard; which movies has he done?

The problem is Danny Elfman set the musical bar so high for superhero movies with Spider-Man that every single one that has come after has sounded awfully flat and unmemorable.

BelleSnowyOwl July 23rd, 2008 10:21 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SoulOfRebirth (Post 5093230)

The problem is Danny Elfman set the musical bar so high for superhero movies with Spider-Man that every single one that has come after has sounded awfully flat and unmemorable.

It's funny that you say that, as Danny did the music for the 1989 Batman and Batman Returns!

Caliope July 23rd, 2008 11:24 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
I didn't even think about the scoring, but you're right - Danny Elfman had a more distinctive touch. And honestly, I kind of appreciated it not being so prominent. It enhances the mood without distracting you from the action.

SoulOfRebirth: Oh, you DID enjoy it? Okay - I got the opposite impression somehow. I'm kind of over the whole 'pain is beautiful', 'all good art is angsty' thing myself, but that's been part of Batman's MO from day one. So I understand your frustration I guess, but I still think you're overreacting a bit. I loved it, not because I like angstyness in general, but because Heath Ledger made a kick-*** Joker that no one will ever forget, Gary Oldman gave Godard a memorable persona on screen for the first time ever, and because I enjoy dark humour with a decent touch of violence. Read into that what you will, but in this case, I don't think the darkness is the result of a trend. Batman has always been dark. The comics have been, anyway. (The TV show back in the '60s was equally revolting and hilarious, depending on your mood, but it's so far flung from the original concept it's barely recognizable.)

So, I found this on Buzznet, and I just have to share, because it's awesome:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v5...rbreakfast.jpg
(Totally sums up my feelings on the DC vs. Marvel debate, by the way, hehe.)

PureBloodGirl July 23rd, 2008 11:50 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
The music was one of the things that I really liked about this movie. It set the mood and was just played so great. Whoever the composer is, is a genius!

I just changed my signiture. I got rid of the awful fangirl squee and the best movie ever line. Even though The Dark Knight is the best movie EVER!

The line that is in my signiture is the one that Jim Gordan says at the end. I was looking it up right now on IMDB so that I could get exactly what he said in my signiture. I started crying when Gary Oldman said this line. I have no idea why, I just did. I read it again on IMDB and I started crying again too. Oh my gosh I'm crying. I don't know why! They're happy tears though.

I loved in the ending when Gordan said that and Batman rode off into the night with his Bat Cycle. I started crying. I am such a fangirl.

SoulOfRebirth July 24th, 2008 1:30 am

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Quote:

It's funny that you say that, as Danny did the music for the 1989 Batman and Batman Returns!
Yeah. You can hear lots of traces of Batman's score in his work for Spider-Man. But I do think his work on Spider-Man managed to outdo his previous stuff.

Quote:

Oh, you DID enjoy it? Okay - I got the opposite impression somehow. I'm kind of over the whole 'pain is beautiful', 'all good art is angsty' thing myself, but that's been part of Batman's MO from day one. So I understand your frustration I guess, but I still think you're overreacting a bit. I loved it, not because I like angstyness in general, but because Heath Ledger made a kick-*** Joker that no one will ever forget, Gary Oldman gave Godard a memorable persona on screen for the first time ever, and because I enjoy dark humour with a decent touch of violence. Read into that what you will, but in this case, I don't think the darkness is the result of a trend. Batman has always been dark. The comics have been, anyway. (The TV show back in the '60s was equally revolting and hilarious, depending on your mood, but it's so far flung from the original concept it's barely recognizable.)
I enjoyed the movie but don't like the reaction and absolutely detest the idea that it's going to spawn millions of imitators. The Dark Knight Returns and Watchmen (the comic books) both launched comics into a "Dark Age" where everything was angsty and violent. I don't really want to see the same thing happen with the movie counterparts, because Hollywood sucks enough right now.

Phrozenone July 24th, 2008 3:30 am

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Ah The Dark Knight...the best superhero movie made to date? Indeed. Best movie ever? Nah.

I did find the movie VERY entertaining though and I loved it. I was a little put off with the editing in the beginning there for some reason.

The acting as a whole was very good. Heath Ledger...what can I say? He WAS the Joker..I never once saw Heath and he did an amazing job with the character. The thing is..I think Heath was SO good that he outshined everyone else. Whenever he wasn't on screen I started getting a little bored because I wanted more of the Joker.

Gary Oldman was fantastic and I liked Maggie Gllyenhale alright (I've never been a fan of replacements..I'd much rather Katie Holmes returned just for the simple fact u can't tell that her and Maggie are playing the same character) Christian Bale is an alright Batman (His batvoice I'm not a fan of however) but he's a VERY good Bruce Wayne so kudos to that.

It's a very solid motion picture though and it stood up to it's hype I think. I do think it could've ended earlier and I'm now in the camp who wish they would've saved the 'Two-Face' bit until the next film and gave the Joker his time to shine. There was just alot going on in the end.

Actually I found myself confused quite a bit with this film. It did more right than wrong however, and like I said b4 if anything Ledger is the reason this film works.

Echart's Harvey Dent/Two Face story I enjoyed but I just wish they would've ended it where he turned to Gordan and we saw his face. I was SUPRISED that they kept going on with his story (I honestly thought he'd just be saved until the 3rd installment) and I feel having Two Face AND The Joker was a LITTLE much...not a bad thing..but I'd rather see Two Face alone than being overshadowed by The Joker.

At the end of the day though I really enjoyed it. ALOT better than Begins and I plan on seeing it again soon (And hopefully in IMAX) Some of the action scenes were breathtaking. The score I didn't really notice much...it did it's job well but there was nothing that stood out and had me humming when I was leaving the theater.

BTW
Spoiler: show
I knew Commisioner Gordan wasn't dead because the scenes he had in the trailer didn't happen yet with the arrest of the Joker :lol: It was done well but anyone that saw the trailer should've known that he wasn't dead..but that's just me..:p


I give it a 9 out of 10 though. It's the first movie I've seen this year so its obviously the best to me :lol: Overated..perhaps..but u can't deny its a darn good film and the standard for Superhero films has just been raised.

freelantzer July 24th, 2008 3:38 am

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IenjoyAcidPops (Post 5093190)
A problem I had with the last film that was carried over here is that...well, I know there IS a "Batman theme", but I sure can't remember it (certainly can't hum it). It's disappointing that with Hans Zimmer and James Newton Howard collaborating that these aren't more distinctive scores.

Actually, I just watched an interview with the composers and they said they specifically steered away from creating "themes" for particular characters.
Quote:

Originally Posted by IenjoyAcidPops
One of my few issues with Batman Begins was that the fight scenes (after Batman's first appearance - I could understand the approach then) were just at too fast a clip, too unclear.

Yeah, I didn't like that either--I wanted to see the fights. But Nolan said he did that purposely to show it from the criminals' perspective--what an intimidating and supernatural-seeming foe Batman is.

DeathlyH July 24th, 2008 4:40 am

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Wow. Wow.

The best superhero movie ever, and my second favorite movie of the century (Return of the King). Everything was just flawless. I feel that there's nothing new to add that hasn't already been said. Heath Ledger was amazing. Christian Bale's Batvoice was way too raspy, but that doesn't even matter. I just know this: I'm seeing the movie again as soon as I possible can.

IenjoyAcidPops July 24th, 2008 4:51 am

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Phrozenone (Post 5093489)
I liked Maggie Gllyenhale alright (I've never been a fan of replacements..I'd much rather Katie Holmes returned just for the simple fact u can't tell that her and Maggie are playing the same character)

I'm not the biggest fan of recasting myself, and would've preferred Katie Holmes returned, but I did like Maggie Gyllenhaal; I think she did a good job of playing recognizably the same person, without imitating Katie Holmes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by freelantzer (Post 5093495)
But Nolan said he did that purposely to show it from the criminals' perspective--what an intimidating and supernatural-seeming foe Batman is.

Exactly, and it worked wonderfully for the first time we see Batman in action. Not so much afterward.

SoulOfRebirth July 24th, 2008 6:03 am

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Quote:

Actually, I just watched an interview with the composers and they said they specifically steered away from creating "themes" for particular characters.
Did they say why? At the very least, Batman should have a recognizable theme.

Quote:

I knew Commisioner Gordan wasn't dead because the scenes he had in the trailer didn't happen yet with the arrest of the Joker
It was also kind of a giveaway that he hadn't been promoted to Commissioner yet.

Wab July 24th, 2008 6:41 am

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliope (Post 5093300)
Batman has always been dark. The comics have been, anyway. (The TV show back in the '60s was equally revolting and hilarious, depending on your mood, but it's so far flung from the original concept it's barely recognizable.)

Not really. The comics of that era weren't particularly dark. Batman (and related titles) didn't swing back to true until the eighties, partly due to Frank Miller and partly due to Denny O'Neill and partly due to DC doing a long overdue revamp of tired titles.

SoulOfRebirth July 24th, 2008 7:37 am

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Quote:

Batman has always been dark. The comics have been, anyway. (The TV show back in the '60s was equally revolting and hilarious, depending on your mood, but it's so far flung from the original concept it's barely recognizable.)
Quote:

Not really. The comics of that era weren't particularly dark. Batman (and related titles) didn't swing back to true until the eighties, partly due to Frank Miller and partly due to Denny O'Neill and partly due to DC doing a long overdue revamp of tired titles.
I always thought of Batman as being more noir than flat-out "dark."

ComicBookWorm July 24th, 2008 12:41 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Wab (Post 5093570)
Not really. The comics of that era weren't particularly dark. Batman (and related titles) didn't swing back to true until the eighties, partly due to Frank Miller and partly due to Denny O'Neill and partly due to DC doing a long overdue revamp of tired titles.

Actually it was the seventies when Dennis O'Neil starting writing them. They stopped being behind the times and became darker and more relevant, although sometimes painfully so. Frank Miller did darken it a bit more in the eighties.

Wab July 24th, 2008 1:47 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
True, but it was in the eighties when he took over the reins as editor with subsequent stories like Death in the Family.

ComicBookWorm July 24th, 2008 2:27 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Agreed. However, the 1970s stuff with Neal Adams was classic. Although it was a bit self-conscious.

"A Death in the Family" is one of my favorites. However, Jason Todd was a pain in the hind quarters, and I voted for him to buy it.

Caliope July 24th, 2008 3:46 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
It didn't even occur to me to watch for the scenes in the trailer, where Gordon was concerned. I just got so sucked in, I completely forgot they hadn't detained The Joker yet, although I saw that scene several times in the trailer beforehand.

On the subject of 'noir' versus 'dark' - what exactly is the difference? Is this version of 'dark' more nihilistic, or is there something else I'm missing?

DeathlyH July 24th, 2008 5:08 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Caliope (Post 5093800)
It didn't even occur to me to watch for the scenes in the trailer, where Gordon was concerned. I just got so sucked in, I completely forgot they hadn't detained The Joker yet, although I saw that scene several times in the trailer beforehand.

I had forgotten about those scenes in the trailer and even if I hadn't I wouldn't have noticed. :lol: I was way too sucked in as well. But I knew Gordon would come back. His whole death scene seemed way too rushed. We never saw what they did with the body, and there was no big ceremony like for Comm. Lowe. It was predictable but still a nice moment. :D

Caliope July 24th, 2008 6:36 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
Well, I feel rather silly for not knowing what was going on now... Still, I'm glad I didn't. Makes it more exciting when he turns up again. (The whole theater cheered - they must've been as ignorant as I was!)

yoshi2542 July 24th, 2008 7:25 pm

Re: Batman 2: The Dark Knight
 
I just saw the movie a few hours ago. I think I loved it, but it was one of those movies that was just so dense that it takes a while for you to digest it and really soak it all in. The best thing I can say about the movie, is that every major scene had my heart thumping in my chest, they were just so intense, the scenes with Batman and Joker, Gordon's scenes with Dent, the scene where Rachel dies, where Dent gets scarred, the whole thing was just fantastically involving.

The performances were all masterful, the action scenes fresh and exciting, and the actual story of the movie was just fantastic. There were so many layers to everything, the movie was not afraid to defy your expectations, and it really felt like everyone involved gave everything they could. I can't wait to see it again. Such a shame that Heath won't be able to come back in part 3 as he was so obviously supposed to.


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