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SusanBones January 8th, 2008 4:06 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
If you take Dumbledore as a truly Machiavellian character, then wasn't he willing for Harry to die so that the soul piece would die, too? Wasn't Dumbledore working for the greater good in the end? The goal of the "greater good" was Voldemort dead - period. It would be an added bonus if Harry managed to live through the experience, but it wasn't mandatory. The greater good is not served by Harry being alive.

Now, that being said, I think that Dumbledore wanted both things to happen. He wanted Voldemort dead and he wanted Harry to live through it. So he told Snape the truth so that there was a chance that he could get the message to Harry. He also counted on Harry to be able to sacrifice himself. My guess is that Dumbledore would have been pretty sure that Harry would be willing to do it. After all, Dumbledore's guesses tend to be right. But he couldn't risk Voldemort finding out about the soul piece, which is why he didn't have a better plan for getting the information to Harry, in my opinion.

arithmancer January 8th, 2008 4:34 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 4893490)
The only other option I see is Phineas's portrait. Dumbeldore would have to tell through Phineas that Harry must be killed to save the others. But I don't know how that would work though, if there would be a DE in the headmaster's office all the time.

Dumbledore would not need to tell Phineas the secret - only ask him to pass it to Harry. Phineas knew it, I presume, since Snape was told it in the office.

The_Green_Woods January 8th, 2008 4:40 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SusanBones (Post 4893510)
If you take Dumbledore as a truly Machiavellian character, then wasn't he willing for Harry to die so that the soul piece would die, too? Wasn't Dumbledore working for the greater good in the end? The goal of the "greater good" was Voldemort dead - period. It would be an added bonus if Harry managed to live through the experience, but it wasn't mandatory. The greater good is not served by Harry being alive.

Now, that being said, I think that Dumbledore wanted both things to happen. He wanted Voldemort dead and he wanted Harry to live through it. So he told Snape the truth so that there was a chance that he could get the message to Harry. He also counted on Harry to be able to sacrifice himself. My guess is that Dumbledore would have been pretty sure that Harry would be willing to do it. After all, Dumbledore's guesses tend to be right. But he couldn't risk Voldemort finding out about the soul piece, which is why he didn't have a better plan for getting the information to Harry, in my opinion.

Yes he was working for the greater good and I agree completely with you. I do not perceive Dumbledore as evil. I did before I knew he loved. But not since. I understand almost all of his motivations, I won't say I understand completely, but yes, most of them and I agree.

As a leader of the only resistance in a war is a terrible job, a job where there are no compromises and a job where everyday tough decicions have to be taken, decicions that may and will cost your poeple their lives.

Members of the Order look up to you and trust you implicitly as their leader, place their hope in you because they think you will lead them from this darkness into the light, that you will never mislead them, and if there would be loss of life then it would be because they know it could never be otherwise. (I hope this came out clear; am not sure).

Harry knew he had to die, Hagrid knew the fate he may end up with; all these were acts necessary and all of them including Harry and Snape placed their trust in him, believing that he may not reveal everything everytime, but when it is necessary, he would certainly tell them. Especially when a particular action may lead to their death. To expect that I think is not wrong on Snape's or Harry's part, considering the work they have done, especially Snape, in this horrible war.

Dumbledore knew that Voldemort was seeking a way to negate the connection between Harry's and his wand, as early as book 6 when Ollivander was kidnapped.

When he asks Snape to kill him, he must have known at that time, that his wand could create problems later.

I think that when Dumbledore is asking Snape to become a murderer in the eyes of the WW, a criminal who would be called traitor and betrayer by the Order and who would be hunted by the Ministry to be killed on capture, he should also be told about the wand.

He does not and so I think he set up Snape to be killed without his knowledge, acceptance or preparation. That is what I think was wrong on Dumbledore's side. As a leader, you have the right to lead your people into battle where they may lose their lives, but I think the people who fight for you so loyally and truly should also be made aware of the consequences of your actions.

Here Dumbledore failed to do so is what I think.

wickedwickedboy January 8th, 2008 12:24 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SusanBones (Post 4893510)
If you take Dumbledore as a truly Machiavellian character, then wasn't he willing for Harry to die so that the soul piece would die, too? Wasn't Dumbledore working for the greater good in the end? The goal of the "greater good" was Voldemort dead - period. It would be an added bonus if Harry managed to live through the experience, but it wasn't mandatory. The greater good is not served by Harry being alive.

Now, that being said, I think that Dumbledore wanted both things to happen. He wanted Voldemort dead and he wanted Harry to live through it. So he told Snape the truth so that there was a chance that he could get the message to Harry. He also counted on Harry to be able to sacrifice himself. My guess is that Dumbledore would have been pretty sure that Harry would be willing to do it. After all, Dumbledore's guesses tend to be right. But he couldn't risk Voldemort finding out about the soul piece, which is why he didn't have a better plan for getting the information to Harry, in my opinion.

I agree. Dumbledore, imo, was willing for everyone working with him to die as long as Voldemort wound up dead as well. Zara brought up yet another way for Harry to find out he must sacrifice himself, and the portraits were not limited to the Headmasters office, but rather could move about the castle itself and find Harry if necessary and tell him. They all knew the truth.

I agree Dumbledore acted in a cold and calculating manner at times, however, the Elder Wand business exhibited the height of his machiavellian nature, imo. Maybe. Maybe not. I have often said that we may be overlooking the fact that just like for Harry, Dumbledore had a plan for Snape. Dumbledore was 99% sure Harry might live and I believe he was 99% Snape might die. Is it really so far-fetched that knowing both these things, that since he had worked out a justification for sending Harry to his death, he had also worked one out for Snape?

The reasons I have come up with were harsh and unpopular :lol:. But I am the first to admit they might be wrong. There may be other reasons that Dumbledore had, but it is something that people seem loath to explore. On the other hand, Dumbledore did say "Poor Severus" as if he was simply sorry that he'd lost another of those on his side, so perhaps there was no justification only the harsh reality that someone had to be sacrificed for the Elder Wand and that person was Snape.

That conclusion is not all that hard to believe either because Dumbledore sent Remus to face the werewolves and both of them knew Remus could be killed. While it is distinct because Remus 'knew' all of the facts, in the end, if he'd been killed, all Dumbledore could have said is "poor Remus". And in fact Dumbledore's ill conceived plan for the 7 Potters Raid did end in Moody's death and we never even got as much as a "poor Moody" for him. Granted, it didn't come up in Harry's conversation, so perhaps we can assume Dumbledore would have said it.

SusanBones January 8th, 2008 12:50 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4893709)
The reasons I have come up with were harsh and unpopular :lol:. But I am the first to admit they might be wrong. There may be other reasons that Dumbledore had, but it is something that people seem loath to explore. On the other hand, Dumbledore did say "Poor Severus" as if he was simply sorry that he'd lost another of those on his side, so perhaps there was no justification only the harsh reality that someone had to be sacrificed for the Elder Wand and that person was Snape.

I have to agree with you about this. There is a very harsh reality here, that is hard to discuss, in my opinion. I agree that Dumbledore may just have said, "poor Severus" because it was the only way for the plan to succeed. I think it is a parallel to Voldemort telling Snape that he regretted killing him. At least Voldemort came out and said it directly, rather than covertly, like Dumbledore did, in my opinion.

The_Green_Woods January 8th, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

posted by wwb
The reasons I have come up with were harsh and unpopular . But I am the first to admit they might be wrong. There may be other reasons that Dumbledore had, but it is something that people seem loath to explore. On the other hand, Dumbledore did say "Poor Severus" as if he was simply sorry that he'd lost another of those on his side, so perhaps there was no justification only the harsh reality that someone had to be sacrificed for the Elder Wand and that person was Snape.
Harsh and unpopular in my opinion may be completely different candidates. :)

'Poor Severus' I think is for the loss of life and I agree with you on that point. You will remember that Dumbledore does not have any regret for Moody, Gerorge's ear or Hedwig. In fact when Snape sends the doe Dumbledore cautions Snape to be caareful, because the Weasleys would be very angry with him, for removing George's ear.

I still think Dumbledore's intent was for Snape to die and I believe it was a deliberate intent to sacrifice Snape. Only he was incredibly lucky that Snape managed to hand over the memories to Harry.

And Phineas could not move over Hogwarts to hand over such an important piece of information in front of other portraits and perhaps even evesdroppers.

I thought of the portrait in Hermione's handbag.

wickedwickedboy January 8th, 2008 1:04 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SusanBones (Post 4893720)
I have to agree with you about this. There is a very harsh reality here, that is hard to discuss, in my opinion. I agree that Dumbledore may just have said, "poor Severus" because it was the only way for the plan to succeed. I think it is a parallel to Voldemort telling Snape that he regretted killing him. At least Voldemort came out and said it directly, rather than covertly, like Dumbledore did, in my opinion.

I said the very same thing in the Dumbledore-Voldemort thread. I agree with you completely. The parallel is strikingly similar, both Dumbledore and Voldemort accepting sacrifice of another's life in light of their own ends. However, there is a possible distinction. Voldemort lacks compassion according to JKR, and thus his words would tend to indicate nothing more than loss of one of his best minions. Dumbledore on the other hand is filled with compassion, so his words would denote both loss of a good minion, but also the loss of humanity as well - and acknowledgement of his culpability. That idea, I believe, does allow for redemption for Dumbledore where none can be had for Voldemort.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 4893726)
Harsh and unpopular in my opinion may be completely different candidates. :)

I don't know what you mean...could you clarify? :) I was referring to Dumbledore feeling that Snape would face his self-sacrifice and accept certain truths about himself in the process. That would be harsh on Dumbledore's part. Not many agreed with me on that idea - that is why I said it was unpopular.

The_Green_Woods January 8th, 2008 1:21 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4893727)
I said the very same thing in the Dumbledore-Voldemort thread. I agree with you completely. The parallel is strikingly similar, both Dumbledore and Voldemort accepting sacrifice of another's life in light of their own ends. However, there is a possible distinction. Voldemort lacks compassion according to JKR, and thus his words would tend to indicate nothing more than loss of one of his best minions. Dumbledore on the other hand is filled with compassion, so his words would denote both loss of a good minion, but also the loss of humanity as well - and acknowledgement of his culpability. That idea, I believe, does allow for redemption for Dumbledore where none can be had for Voldemort.

I don't know what you mean...could you clarify? :)

I also agree with you on there being not much difference between Dumbledore and Voldemort. Both of them had definite ideas for what they perceived to be the best for the WW; both were ruthless and had no qualms to sacrifice the one for the many; both were leaders who did not allow those who followed them to go against their orders.

Only Voldemort killed for personal gain and Dumbledore did not. That was the redeeming quality in Dumbledore IMO.

Harsh and unpopular -- well there are so many starting from Umbridge and Peter to Bellatrix and McNair. These are people I would not mind being sent to death all for the greater good.

No one else IMO deserves to die for the greater good, well unless one's working for Dumbledore or for personal gain unless one's working for Voldemort. :)

Not Snape!!!!! Of course that's my opinion.

wickedwickedboy January 8th, 2008 9:59 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Green_Woods (Post 4893734)
Harsh and unpopular -- well there are so many starting from Umbridge and Peter to Bellatrix and McNair. These are people I would not mind being sent to death all for the greater good.

No one else IMO deserves to die for the greater good, well unless one's working for Dumbledore or for personal gain unless one's working for Voldemort. :)

Not Snape!!!!! Of course that's my opinion.


Ah...I see. But I was not referring to people. I was referring to my idea about why Dumbledore elected Snape to kill him and suffer the consequences of being believed to be the Master of the Elder Wand by Voldemort. My idea was harsh and no one seemed to agree with it - thus, it was unpopular. :)

The_Green_Woods January 10th, 2008 12:40 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4894102)
Ah...I see. But I was not referring to people. I was referring to my idea about why Dumbledore elected Snape to kill him and suffer the consequences of being believed to be the Master of the Elder Wand by Voldemort. My idea was harsh and no one seemed to agree with it - thus, it was unpopular. :)

Oh! I completely missed it! Where have you posted that? Is it this?

Quote:

I agree Dumbledore acted in a cold and calculating manner at times, however, the Elder Wand business exhibited the height of his machiavellian nature, imo. Maybe. Maybe not. I have often said that we may be overlooking the fact that just like for Harry, Dumbledore had a plan for Snape. Dumbledore was 99% sure Harry might live and I believe he was 99% Snape might die. Is it really so far-fetched that knowing both these things, that since he had worked out a justification for sending Harry to his death, he had also worked one out for Snape?

Pearl_Took January 10th, 2008 1:03 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
1. What are your general thoughts on Dumbledore as a character through books 1-7? Do you see a difference in his behavior and/or actions between the books?

- I never quite believed in Dumble's calm, whimsical exterior. I always felt there was far more going on than met the eye. Therefore the revelation about his more 'Machiavellian' character wasn't that much of a shock to me, to be honest.

2. Throughout the books, Dumbledore seems to always be teaching Harry something, but his lessons are sometimes hidden and subtle. What do you believe are the most important lessons Dumbledore taught Harry? Did Dumbledore adequately prepare Harry for the trials that lie ahead in book 7? Is there anything you think Dumbledore should have told Harry before he died?

- He should have told him about the Hallows in Book 6.
- And told him what would be expected of him, i.e. that Harry had to die, and not left this thankless and brutal task to Snape ... particularly with all the issues between Harry and Snape. It was unfair to both of them, IMO.

3. What did you think of the revelations of DH regarding Dumbledore's family? How did these tragedies effect the person he is now?

- The backstory was moving and believable. Yup, it helped explain how Albus ticked.

4. Why do you think Dumbledore and Grindelwald were friends? How did Dumbledore's homosexuality affect his susceptibility to Grindelwald's ideas?

- Well, Dumble as a youth was attracted to power, and Grindelwald seems to have been a charismatic personality. And love can be blind ...

5. Was Dumbledore right to keep so many secrets from so many people? Was this secrecy because of his sister? Because of his own homosexuality?

- Some of his secrecy I can understand, as he was often in a difficult position re: the Ministry. As to his secrecy over his homosexuality, Jo has said that the wizarding world is quite tolerant on that count ... so I'm not sure that his secrecy was due to that, and don't have a strong enough opinion on this to comment further. :) He's just a secretive guy all round.

6. What do you think of Dumbledore's recognition of his own failings? His decision not to enter the Ministry?

- Albus is a very calculating character, IMO, but he admits his failings in his 'King's Cross' encounter with Harry.

7. Do you think Dumbledore expected too much from Harry? Did he do the right thing? Was it fair to ask Harry to sacrifice himself?

- Albus expected an incredible amount of Harry, to the point of too much. I guess that Harry sacrificing himself was the only way to defeat Voldemort, and I believe that Albus believed that Harry would survive ... his reaction to Harry in the King's Cross chapter seems to indicate that. Indeed, if I didn't think that, then neither the story nor Albus's character would make much sense to me. I think Albus is lucky in being able to train up a boy as trusting and, in some ways naive, as Harry is. Harry is remarkable for not being more shocked and angry by learning about Albus's betrayal after the revelations of the Prince's Tale.

8. Does the revelation of his homosexuality ultimately affect his character? What actions, if any, do you see differently now?

- It makes no difference to me whatsoever as to how I regard Albus. :)

Lunabell14 January 13th, 2008 1:45 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
1. What are your general thoughts on Dumbledore as a character through books 1-7? Do you see a difference in his behavior and/or actions between the books?
I loved Dumbly in the first 6 books. In seven it was like ok...I didn't suddenly dislike him because he was perfect, but he just wasn't the Dumbledore I had grown to love.

2. Throughout the books, Dumbledore seems to always be teaching Harry something, but his lessons are sometimes hidden and subtle. What do you believe are the most important lessons Dumbledore taught Harry? Did Dumbledore adequately prepare Harry for the trials that lie ahead in book 7? Is there anything you think Dumbledore should have told Harry before he died?
I don't think he did. I think Harry would've been better prepared if Dumbledore had told him the importance of the sword and gave it to him ahead of time. While the Voldemort backstory was very interesting, I wouldn't say it was all that important to killing him, except the horcrux stuff.

3. What did you think of the revelations of DH regarding Dumbledore's family? How did these tragedies effect the person he is now?
Obviously they affected him greatly. He learned power was not good for him and he did have a weakness. He needed to put people ahead of himself sometimes.

4. Why do you think Dumbledore and Grindelwald were friends? How did Dumbledore's homosexuality affect his susceptibility to Grindelwald's ideas?

Because Grindelwald was intellectually stimulating and he was probably hot lol. Anyway, I do think Dumbledore was so charmed by Grindelwald he would listen to almost anything he said, regardless of what it was.

5. Was Dumbledore right to keep so many secrets from so many people? Was this secrecy because of his sister? Because of his own homosexuality?
To a degree...I mean, what do you think Snape would've done if he knew from the beginning that Harry was being raised to be a "pig for slaughter"? What would Harry do if he knew he needed to sacrifice himself? The timing needed to be right. Anyway, I think it was a mixture of his entire family that he needed to become secretive. I mean, he was trying to protect his sister and his mom probably warned him not to say anything about her to anyone. As for the homosexuality thing, it was taboo at this point in history but I think the family stuff is supposed to be more important as to why he keeps more secrets though realistically he probably wouldn't even be able to love openly, which just sucks.

6. What do you think of Dumbledore's recognition of his own failings? His decision not to enter the Ministry?
Wise. Very wise.

7. Do you think Dumbledore expected too much from Harry? Did he do the right thing? Was it fair to ask Harry to sacrifice himself?
I think he probably should've done a better job at helping him out (i.e. sword and told him more about horcruxes instead of relying on him to make it out and destroy the locket and show him how.) Anyway, it wasn't fair to ask Harry to sacrifice himself, but what could he do? Either was he was probably going to die, he might as well bring Voldemort down with him.

8. Does the revelation of his homosexuality ultimately affect his character? What actions, if any, do you see differently now?
Not really and none, except maybe where Dumbledore was crying when Harry was talking about Grindelwald showing remorse. Re-reading it post-gay revelation made me think aww. =]

horcrux4 January 16th, 2008 4:44 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
If we are considering the important things Dumbledore could have told Harry, then how to destroy a horcrux would, you'd think, have been high on the list. After all, he'd used the sword on the ring - why not let Harry know and make arrangements for Harry to have access to it? I suppose that would have spoiled the plot though - no heroic rescue by Ron etc, so I'll play along with it.

My opinion is that Dumbledore's relationship with Grindelwald affected a lot of his later actions. He put off duelling Grindelwald for a long time, and lots of people suffered until he could be persuaded to do it. He learned there that love must be sacrificed for the good of the wizarding world. He didn't have such feelings to deal with in getting rid of Voldemort, but he did love Harry, and I think he would have seen Harry dying as another sacrifice of love he must make for the good of the WW. When he spoke in OotP of trying to protect Harry from knowing his destiny, I feel that it was against this background of seeing someone he loved suffer.

I also think that his definition of "the greater good" had changed by Voldemort's time. When he was young, it meant the supremacy of wizards, by which Muggles would be protected. Later though he seemed willing to let the Muggles be themselves and saw his role as keeping the wizarding world safe from evil (which would protect the Muggles without their knowing it). He knew that some people had to be sacrificed if the war was to be won - he couldn't save those he loved and let the world be run by Voldemort.

Myself, I think this was a brave thing to do - most of us would probably have had trouble doing that. Maybe that's why he had to seem a bit reserved or removed - he couldn't get too emotionally involved again.

That's what I think, anyway!

arithmancer January 16th, 2008 4:49 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by horcrux4 (Post 4901179)
If we are considering the important things Dumbledore could have told Harry, then how to destroy a horcrux would, you'd think, have been high on the list. After all, he'd used the sword on the ring - why not let Harry know and make arrangements for Harry to have access to it? I suppose that would have spoiled the plot though - no heroic rescue by Ron etc, so I'll play along with it.

This, I think, was something Dumbledore planned to do. In my opinion, he was saving it for after they retrieved the locket - he planned to either have Harry destroy it, or have Harry watch as he did. Unfortunately events got in the way of that.

anabel January 21st, 2008 10:16 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 4901185)
This, I think, was something Dumbledore planned to do. In my opinion, he was saving it for after they retrieved the locket - he planned to either have Harry destroy it, or have Harry watch as he did. Unfortunately events got in the way of that.

I think this is quite probable. Draco succeeding in his "carpentry project" on precisely that evening was incredibly bad timing for Harry and Dumbledore, although excellent as a plot device. And while it would have been sensible for Dumbledore to mention earlier, "there are only a few things that can destroy a Horcrux - including Basilisk venom, which, by the way, the Sword of Gryffindor is now impregnated with, and fiendfyre (but don't use that - it's hellishly difficult to put out!)", this would have taken away a lot of the suspense of book 7.

Anyway - Dumbledore probably knew Hermione was intelligent enough to Summon the Horcrux books and study them herself!

arithmancer January 26th, 2008 4:08 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Random question: We know that Dumbledore's Patronus took the form of a Phoenix. What might the significance of that form be, and what would we guess is the happy memory that produces it?

The_Green_Woods January 26th, 2008 5:35 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 4910534)
Random question: We know that Dumbledore's Patronus took the form of a Phoenix. What might the significance of that form be, and what would we guess is the happy memory that produces it?

I have always wondered about the story of how Fawkes bonded with Dumbledore. Has Jo said anything about this?

He always belonged to Dumbledore is what we know. Perhaps he came to Dumbledore when he was struggling with his feelings after Ariana's death and Grindelwald's desertion. That would have been the lowest point in his life, losing both his sister and his love, and I would love it, if Dumbledore somehow came into contact with Fawkes and Fawkes became his familiar.

I would like to think, that Fawkes's trill would have been the main thing that healed Dumbledore and slowly lifted him from the pit of despair he would hve fallen into.

Dumbledore literally rises from the ashes of his life after the death of Ariana, and perhaps this is also symbolized in his Patronus of a Phoenix that also time and again rises from the ashes.

As for the happy memory, it would be sometimes happy memories of his family, before his father went to Azkaban, his mother's death, Ariana's death and the fallout with Aberforth, and his very brief and happy time with GG; both Albus Dumbledore is unable to forget after a lifetime.

Yoana January 26th, 2008 9:48 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by zgirnius (Post 4910534)
Random question: We know that Dumbledore's Patronus took the form of a Phoenix. What might the significance of that form be, and what would we guess is the happy memory that produces it?

I think it was a phoenix because Dumbledore needed something really spectacular for a Patronus - he can't be stuck with any old mortal animal. I think it signifies above all his greatness. As for the happy though which produces it, I'd imagine it's the memories of his family when they were together - but given his long, long life, it could be anything really.

wickedwickedboy January 26th, 2008 2:02 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Was it a phoenix? I had not realized that. Quite unexpected really, it doesn't seem to suit him. I would have thought his patronus would be a fox.

The_Green_Woods January 26th, 2008 2:24 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4910754)
Was it a phoenix? I had not realized that. Quite unexpected really, it doesn't seem to suit him. I would have thought his patronus would be a fox.


:lol::lol: It was a Phoenix. I am quite sure. :lol:


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