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Sereena June 16th, 2013 9:43 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HedwigOwl (Post 6073374)
Actually, Dumbledore did discuss what type of objects Voldemort was likely to have used for his horcruxes. Discussing and showing Harry what was important to Voldemort helped Harry discover where they might look. With the exception of the Ring -- which being a Gaunt heirloom as a true line of Slytherin, that Riddle cursed because he likely felt no one but a Slytherin should ever put it on -- the magic protecting it seems the strength of the horcrux spell itself and of course the soul-piece. Voldemort felt to the end that his own intelligence and cleverness could not possibly be figured out by "ordinary" wizarding folk. And Dumbledore also left Harry the Sword in his will, which didn't work out because of Ministry interference.

This argument seems to be based on the fact that since things turned out alright, Dumbledore probably acted in the right manner, which I don't think is logical. The fact that Harry was able to defeat Voldemort doesn't have to mean that Dumbledore gave him all the tools he needed to succeed. Had Harry failed in his quest, Dumbledore's plan and actions would have been subject to more criticism but since Harry succeeded, he gets leeway. The fact that Voldemort was too arrogant to protect all his Horcruxes in a powerful way is merely convenient and there is no indication that Harry would have known how to deal with dark magic had Voldemort chosen to use it. This is why I said that Harry won through luck, because Dumbledore didn't and/or couldn't provide him with anything useful, besides Voldemort's background.

HedwigOwl June 17th, 2013 5:02 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sereena (Post 6073375)
This argument seems to be based on the fact that since things turned out alright, Dumbledore probably acted in the right manner, which I don't think is logical. The fact that Harry was able to defeat Voldemort doesn't have to mean that Dumbledore gave him all the tools he needed to succeed. Had Harry failed in his quest, Dumbledore's plan and actions would have been subject to more criticism but since Harry succeeded, he gets leeway. The fact that Voldemort was too arrogant to protect all his Horcruxes in a powerful way is merely convenient and there is no indication that Harry would have known how to deal with dark magic had Voldemort chosen to use it. This is why I said that Harry won through luck, because Dumbledore didn't and/or couldn't provide him with anything useful, besides Voldemort's background.

I think Dumbledore gave Harry all the information about Voldemort & horcruxes that he could. He took him along on the expedition to the cave horcrux hunt precisely so Harry could see how Dumbledore went about investigating and how dangerous it could be. He didn't tell Harry that he had a soul-piece behind the scar, but then I believe Dumbledore was correct in thinking that Harry wasn't ready to hear that part, not until there was no other choice, when Harry was completely committed to the defeat of Voldemort via the horcrux destruction. Some things were left to chance, but every possible assistance was given. You argue that the author steered circumstances to turn out the way they did. While that may of course be true, in actual history many decisions of great scale are undertaken with less than complete information because the point is reached where action must be taken (or not taken). Looking at the story you can see elements of personalities, commitment, determination, service to evil or good, parts of puzzles but not the whole -- all these contribute to the outcome based on the actions or inactions of the people involved, just like in real life. Not so different, then, a good story and life events when you think about it......

mirrormere June 21st, 2013 10:17 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow (Post 6073209)
I don't think Phineas Nigellus's (sp?) information was a red herring. That part was shown in "The Prince's Tale", near the end of DH, and no other information was given after that revealing a different means of locating Harry. Red herrings are just there to mislead, but what would be the point at the end of the series, and from what would it be misleading the readers, and why?

Yeah, technically it might not be a red herring per se, as I think the mislead would need to be intentional, but it is misleading to some degree in my opinion. I think JKR had full blown "ghost plots" (see Pottermore) for both DD and Snape but then told the story from Harry's pov and in such a way that we didn't get complete glimpses of what was going on in the background. The way the headmaster portraits are made is a good example. I don't think any one would have guessed, just from reading the books, that the portraits are painted (perhaps years) before the headmaster dies and that said headmaster has to transfer selected knowledge to his/her portrait before passing on. Why JKR skimped on such details, beside trying to keep word count down, baffles me to some degree, but she does. Was it purposely to mislead? If so, it was a red herring. If not, then unintentional obfuscation.

At the end of the book, when JKR is supposed to be "clearing everything up", she 1) Has DD agree that he intended Snape to end up with the Elder Wand; 2) Has LV say DD's intent was for Snape to end up the true master of the Elder Wand -to which Harry agrees; 3) Has Harry say DD's intent was to die undefeated, the Elder Wand's last true master and 4) Has DD agree that the Elder Wand's power will be broken when Harry dies a natural death. Somehow, to her, with all of her ghost plots in mind, these statements are not contradictory. I believe we are missing something that would clear up our confusion.

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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow (Post 6073209)
Yes, the information about Harry's whereabouts were gained through pure chance-- one of the things that drives me up the wall about Dumbledore's supposed brilliant planning abilities. Then I think Snape went to the Forest of Dean and cast his Patronusgram-thingy, and it searched around until it found Harry, and then lead Harry to the spot where Snape hid by the pool. I don't think Snape had any other means to find Harry.

Actually, the only thing gained by chance is that the Trio was in the Forest of Dean and I still don't think that is sufficent for Snape to find them. The deluminator takes Ron directly to where Hermione is, but he wanders around for hours unable to find them (most likely due to the protective charms.) Snape had to hide the Sword in the pond before casting his Patronus to lead Harry to it. How did he know where to hide it - in 42.5 square miles of forest? Harry didn't have to walk very far before finding the sword so Snape had to have known where the boy was before casting the silver doe to lead him to the pond.

I can't see DD - or Snape - leaving that to chance. Snape wouild still need to find Harry at the end and deliver his message - how was he supposed to do that? I don't think JKR was leaving it to chance either - I think she just didn't give us sufficient information to figure out how it could be done. That's why I think that one way it could be done was having the Headmaster of Hogwarts able to track a Hogwarts snitch - that charm would have gone unnoticed by the MoM and Harry would have carried it on him always, knowing it was a gift from DD and important to his mission at the end. But that's my theory.

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Originally Posted by Sereena (Post 6073218)
Heh, he did leave plenty of things up to chance though. If Snape hadn't been killed by Nagini but by the killing curse, Harry would have never gotten to see those memories.

But DD wasn't planning for Snape to be killed by LV, so he wasn't depending on luck in that instance at all.

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Originally Posted by Sereena (Post 6073218)
It was pure luck that Harry found Snape in time, just like other things which Dumbledore was supposed to have planned for were pure luck as well.

What other things? From my pov, the only thing he left to chance - and then he did everything possible to take chance out of the equation - was counting on the Seven Potters scenario to keep LV from combating Harry directly. When that went awry, the portrait, being uninformed, was not able to put DD's original plan back on track.

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Originally Posted by Sereena (Post 6073218)
Snape was given a task (give Harry the memories) but Dumbledore never told him how to find Harry. I'm not saying that he should have, after all, Snape is a smart man, he would have found a way (though it makes me wonder why he waited so long).

If DD, or his portrait, would have given Snape all the information that he needed to make corrections to the plan, things would have turned out differently, at least for Snape. But the portrait didn't recieve the info it needed to be able to inform Snape when things went wrong.

OldMotherCrow June 22nd, 2013 3:21 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6073746)
Actually, the only thing gained by chance is that the Trio was in the Forest of Dean and I still don't think that is sufficent for Snape to find them. The deluminator takes Ron directly to where Hermione is, but he wanders around for hours unable to find them (most likely due to the protective charms.) Snape had to hide the Sword in the pond before casting his Patronus to lead Harry to it. How did he know where to hide it - in 42.5 square miles of forest? Harry didn't have to walk very far before finding the sword so Snape had to have known where the boy was before casting the silver doe to lead him to the pond.

I think an area of 7 miles by 6 miles would be analogous to 42.5 square miles. It is large, but it could be searched in a pattern by breaking it up into smaller chunks. I think a human can walk a mile in 15 minutes, though through woods I'd give them half an hour to cover that distance. So Snape could have set up a pool, sent out his Patronus for a set distance along the points of the compass rose, and if that washed out he could have moved on to a new grid area, set up a new pool, and tried again. Assuming Snape Apparated directly to the Forest of Dean after he left his office, he would have been searching all day and part of the night before he found Harry. I think the time delay in finding Harry shows that he did not have a direct way to locate him.

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I can't see DD - or Snape - leaving that to chance.
I think it is odd that Dumbledore left it to chance, too. That is why I wonder if he did have a plan to give Snape some means to locate Harry, but failed to carry it out before his death.

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Snape wouild still need to find Harry at the end and deliver his message - how was he supposed to do that? I don't think JKR was leaving it to chance either - I think she just didn't give us sufficient information to figure out how it could be done. That's why I think that one way it could be done was having the Headmaster of Hogwarts able to track a Hogwarts snitch - that charm would have gone unnoticed by the MoM and Harry would have carried it on him always, knowing it was a gift from DD and important to his mission at the end. But that's my theory.
Well, I guess now is the hour to throw those theories on the table, what with the closing of CoS coming ever closer!

But, I just don't see the evidence for it. There are items that can sort of track, but it seems that the person who is doing the tracking needs the item. For example, Molly's clock can tell her the well-being of her family members wherever they are-- though not where they are exactly; the Deluminator could lead Ron back to Harry, though it was Ron who needed to have the Deluminator, not Harry. Perhaps Dumbledore had a plan to give Snape such an item, but if so, I think he failed to carry it out. Snape does not seem to have any idea where to look for Harry until Phineas reports that he is in the Forest of Dean, and then it takes Snape a day and part of a night to locate Harry in the forest.

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If DD, or his portrait, would have given Snape all the information that he needed to make corrections to the plan, things would have turned out differently, at least for Snape. But the portrait didn't recieve the info it needed to be able to inform Snape when things went wrong.
I think that is indicative of Dumbledore's personality, that he actually thought his portrait with its contingency plans could somehow keep things on track, even though no one knew what info it needed to be fed. I think Dumbledore would have done better to get a human successor up to speed as quickly as possible, because a person could actually think and plan on their own. I think Dumbledore really had a hard time giving up control.

TreacleTartlet June 22nd, 2013 7:41 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6073746)
. Snape wouild still need to find Harry at the end and deliver his message - how was he supposed to do that?

Maybe he was intending to tell Snape about Aberforth and Sirius' mirror. Just a thought. :)

OldMotherCrow June 22nd, 2013 12:26 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet (Post 6073769)
Maybe he was intending to tell Snape about Aberforth and Sirius' mirror. Just a thought. :)

Actually, that's a really good thought. Hogsmeade is just a stone's throw away from Hogwarts. Perhaps Dumbledore just didn't tell his portrait or Snape (ETA: Or Aberforth) before it was too late, and so that part of the plan got lost.

mirrormere June 26th, 2013 4:01 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow (Post 6073757)
I think an area of 7 miles by 6 miles would be analogous to 42.5 square miles. It is large, but it could be searched in a pattern by breaking it up into smaller chunks. I think a human can walk a mile in 15 minutes, though through woods I'd give them half an hour to cover that distance. So Snape could have set up a pool, sent out his Patronus for a set distance along the points of the compass rose, and if that washed out he could have moved on to a new grid area, set up a new pool, and tried again. Assuming Snape Apparated directly to the Forest of Dean after he left his office, he would have been searching all day and part of the night before he found Harry. I think the time delay in finding Harry shows that he did not have a direct way to locate him.

Although I think your argument has merit, I'm just not quite convinced with the logistics. I walk at a fairly quick pace, but it takes me longer than 15 minutes to cover a mile and that's on flat ground without searching for something. In the woods? Much different story. And it seems a bit inefficent to keep finding pools and then sending the doe to fetch Harry - especially since I think once the doe was sent out, and if Snape were not close by, the Patronus would not extinguish until it found it's target. Can Snape end it from a distance? But how would he know if it found Harry or not? How long would he wait for it to come back with Harry? I think Snape would have had to find Harry first and then set up the sword because there would be no way for him to gage what was happening with his Patronus.

Can Snape follow his own Patronus? If Snape could keep the doe at a slower pace that would be possible. We know Snape could fly and he might be able to actually tail his own Patronus. But then he wouldn't really need Phineas' info anyway. What gives credence to this theory is that JKR has told us that Snape is the only DE that could produce a Patronus - so this method of finding Harry when the Snatchers or even Voldemort could not would be valid. She also mentions at the beginning of the book that Hermione could control her Patronus enough to send messages with it, but neither Ron nor Harry could, thus explaining why Ron was searching for hours despite the fact the Deluminator brought him directly to the campsite. If Snape Apparated to the Forest of Dean, set his Patronus off (slowly) to find Harry, followed it from the air, extinguished it once he found them and before they saw it, hid the sword, waited until dark (is it harder to see a Patronus in the daytime?) and then led Harry to the pond . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow (Post 6073757)
I think it is odd that Dumbledore left it to chance, too. That is why I wonder if he did have a plan to give Snape some means to locate Harry, but failed to carry it out before his death.

And that could be possible. DD may not have had a chance to inform his portrait.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow (Post 6073757)
Well, I guess now is the hour to throw those theories on the table, what with the closing of CoS coming ever closer!

Waaaaaa! Don't remind me!

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow (Post 6073757)
But, I just don't see the evidence for it. There are items that can sort of track, but it seems that the person who is doing the tracking needs the item. For example, Molly's clock can tell her the well-being of her family members wherever they are-- though not where they are exactly; the Deluminator could lead Ron back to Harry, though it was Ron who needed to have the Deluminator, not Harry. Perhaps Dumbledore had a plan to give Snape such an item, but if so, I think he failed to carry it out. Snape does not seem to have any idea where to look for Harry until Phineas reports that he is in the Forest of Dean, and then it takes Snape a day and part of a night to locate Harry in the forest.

But JKR manages to spring stuff on us anyway, whether she includes evidence or not. The headmaster portraits being taught by their owners for one. Lily's blood being capable of saving Voldemort for another. And what, pray tell, is going on in GoF when Harry is whisked off to the graveyard?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow (Post 6073757)
I think that is indicative of Dumbledore's personality, that he actually thought his portrait with its contingency plans could somehow keep things on track, even though no one knew what info it needed to be fed. I think Dumbledore would have done better to get a human successor up to speed as quickly as possible, because a person could actually think and plan on their own. I think Dumbledore really had a hard time giving up control.

And I have a completely different take on it, simply because I think he would have specific reasons not to share that info. I think that is illustrated when he is cursed by the ring. He immediately decides to task Harry with finding and destroying the horcruxes and assigns Snape to become headmaster and to deliver his final message to Harry. I think he held on to that knowledge for a specific reason, not because he couldn't give up control.

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Originally Posted by TreacleTartlet (Post 6073769)
Maybe he was intending to tell Snape about Aberforth and Sirius' mirror. Just a thought.

Possble, but I think unlikely. If Harry saw a black eye staring at him from the sliver of mirror, he would have destroyed it immediately. Aberforth likely would not have invited his brother's killer in to use the mirror to find Harry. I think the snitch theory the most elegant, but there is no real evidence for it.

OldMotherCrow June 28th, 2013 5:26 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6074088)
Although I think your argument has merit, I'm just not quite convinced with the logistics. I walk at a fairly quick pace, but it takes me longer than 15 minutes to cover a mile and that's on flat ground without searching for something. In the woods? Much different story.

I don't think Patronuses are slowed by difficult terrain, so I think it could search much quicker than a person on foot going through the woods. I was thinking more in terms of how far Harry needed to travel to get to the pool, but he was following the Patronus, not searching, so I think that would have allowed him to move at a reasonable pace.

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And it seems a bit inefficent to keep finding pools and then sending the doe to fetch Harry - especially since I think once the doe was sent out, and if Snape were not close by, the Patronus would not extinguish until it found it's target. Can Snape end it from a distance? But how would he know if it found Harry or not? How long would he wait for it to come back with Harry? I think Snape would have had to find Harry first and then set up the sword because there would be no way for him to gage what was happening with his Patronus.
My impression was that it was like a Patronusgram, only its "message" was to get Harry to follow it back to where Snape was. I suppose I think so because Patronusgrams seem to be able to travel great distances and through protections that would thwart humans-- Tonks' Patronusgram got into Hogwarts, Kingley's to the Burrow, and Arthur's into 12 Grimmauld Place-- so it could better search fir hidden recipients than a human. Also, Patronusgrams do perhaps have to look for the recipient of the message within a designated area-- despite Tonks sending her Patronusgram to Hogwarts, it failed to find Hagrid and was intercepted by Snape, which seemed to me to show that Patronuses don't automatically find their targets right off.

I don't think Snape would have to create very many pools-- maybe just one in the middle of the forest, depending on the forest's shape (I don't know how the Foorest of Dean is shaped). If he searches in a radius from the center Harry will not be more than a few miles away no matter where Harry is camping.

All Snape has to do is wait by his pool for his Patronusgram to return.

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If Snape Apparated to the Forest of Dean, set his Patronus off (slowly) to find Harry, followed it from the air, extinguished it once he found them and before they saw it, hid the sword, waited until dark (is it harder to see a Patronus in the daytime?) and then led Harry to the pond . . .
Harry was on watch, and only saw the light from the Patronus one time, which he then followed. I do not think the Patronus was there twice.

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And I have a completely different take on it, simply because I think he would have specific reasons not to share that info. I think that is illustrated when he is cursed by the ring. He immediately decides to task Harry with finding and destroying the horcruxes and assigns Snape to become headmaster and to deliver his final message to Harry. I think he held on to that knowledge for a specific reason, not because he couldn't give up control.
I am sure Dumbledore had reasons-- but Dumbledore was going to die. I think he gives away only the information that he thinks he has to. I think that some of the problems encountered by Harry and Snape were caused by Dumbledore not imparting knowledge in a timely way. He did not even seem to impart the information to a third party just in case something should happen to him-- unless one counts his portrait (which still seems to operate only with limited knowledge, to me), but that hardly reassures me about his reluctance to give up control if the only thing he would trust was a facsimile of himself, rather than any other living person in the world, who would have had the capacity to adapt things to changing circumstances.

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Possble, but I think unlikely. If Harry saw a black eye staring at him from the sliver of mirror, he would have destroyed it immediately. Aberforth likely would not have invited his brother's killer in to use the mirror to find Harry. I think the snitch theory the most elegant, but there is no real evidence for it.
I think Aberforth would have to be in on the plan in order for it to work. He would have to be told about Snape by Dumbledore, so that Aberforth could be the one to set up the meeting with Harry. Dumbledore does not seem to have told Aberforth anything about it by the time of his death, though. As it was a means to reach Harry that Dumbledore knew about, though, I like it as a solution. He may also have intended to set up something else that he never got around to.

TreacleTartlet June 28th, 2013 10:21 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6074088)
Possble, but I think unlikely. If Harry saw a black eye staring at him from the sliver of mirror, he would have destroyed it immediately. Aberforth likely would not have invited his brother's killer in to use the mirror to find Harry.

I think it's possible that Albus was planning to tell Aberforth. He was his brother and I think he would have trusted him. We know Albus told Aberforth about the mirror, but he didn't ask him to return it to Harry, even though it was stolen from Grimmauld Place after the death of Sirius. All which makes me think Dumbledore had plans for it's use.
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Originally Posted by OldMotherCrow (Post 6074275)
I don't think Patronuses are slowed by difficult terrain, so I think it could search much quicker than a person on foot going through the woods.


Indeed!:agree: In PoA Harry's stag patronus travels with ease across the lake.



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My impression was that it was like a Patronusgram, only its "message" was to get Harry to follow it back to where Snape was. I suppose I think so because Patronusgrams seem to be able to travel great distances and through protections that would thwart humans-- Tonks' Patronusgram got into Hogwarts, Kingley's to the Burrow, and Arthur's into 12 Grimmauld Place-- so it could better search fir hidden recipients than a human. Also, Patronusgrams do perhaps have to look for the recipient of the message within a designated area-- despite Tonks sending her Patronusgram to Hogwarts, it failed to find Hagrid and was intercepted by Snape, which seemed to me to show that Patronuses don't automatically find their targets right off.
Yes, Patronuses seem to travel great distances in a short amount of time to their recipients. Kingsley's Patronus got to the Burrow before DE apparated there.

Edit: Love the term "Patronusgram" :lol:

decaye23 June 28th, 2013 10:50 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
I just wanted to pose a couple thoughts to the 'Snape finding the Trio' topic. I'd have to say first that Snape is a wizard, a very skilled wizard. I would find it difficult to believe that he would spend all day walking around to find the Trio. Two things come to mind with a wizard with Snape's skill searching for them...the first is Homenum Revelio (the human detection spell).

First, I am not saying that a wizard can detect all human presence within 42 square miles...but then, there is no evidence to say that they cannot - especially a wizard with the skill of Snape. I'm sure it is doubtful that the trio were the only humans in the forest that night, but then again, how many humans would be in the Forest of Dean at night? If any others at all, really. I don't know, I've never been there. :)

One might ask, what about the protective enchantments Hermione cast? From all I can see in canon, Hermione cast Protego Totalum, Salvio Hexia, Repello Muggletum, the Muffliato Charm, Cave Inimicum, and the Disillusionment Charm. Two of those aren't clear what they do, but Salvio Hexia looks like it defends against Hexes and Cave Inimicum means "beware of the enemy". At this point, I don't see how any of those are a defense against Homenum Revelio.

Now, a second possibility...is that Snape can do what only very skilled wizards seem to be able to do. Such as what Voldemort did with the Stone in Harry's pocket or Dumbledore finding the boat in the cave.

The Cave, HBP"How did you know that was there?" Harry asked in astonishment.

"Magic always leaves traces," said Dumbledore, as the boat hit the bank
with a gentle bump, "sometimes very distinctive traces. I taught Tom
Riddle. I know his style."


DD and Tom can sense magical objects...more specifically, concealed magic objects. Again, I do not know the range of this ability, perhaps it's wide...perhaps not, but there's nothing that says the object has to be within a 10 foot radius of the wizard, for example, so I'm entertaining the possibility.

I am not just talking about the horcrux, either. There were several objects that Snape might have sensed that would tell him magic was in the vicinity...Hermione's bag, the Snitch, wands, even...I suppose.

Concealed magic, sensed by Snape could have led him straight to Harry's location. So, I'm not saying Snape didn't have to do any walking, I'm just of a mind that much more more magic was likely involved and those were just the two scenarios that came to mind. :)

MerryLore June 29th, 2013 12:58 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by decaye23 (Post 6074298)
I just wanted to pose a couple thoughts to the 'Snape finding the Trio' topic. I'd have to say first that Snape is a wizard, a very skilled wizard. I would find it difficult to believe that he would spend all day walking around to find the Trio.

I have a theory.

We know Dumbledore taught Order members how to use their patronuses to send messages, and I'm guessing this would work even if the sender didn't know precisely where the person was located. Perhaps the patronus charm will locate the person for you as long as you know the general location. Maybe all Snape had to do was go to the Forest of Dean, cast the patronus charm, and follow his doe.

HRW June 29th, 2013 8:32 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
I have a theory, wild and far-fetched but a theory nonetheless:shrug:

Judging by the reaction of Dumbledore's portrait when Phineas Nigellus came with the news of Harry and Hermione being in the Forest of Dean and how Snape suddenly leaped into action, I don't think Snape had any clue to Harry's location and nor did he have any means of determining it.

However I don't think Dumbledore would ignore such a big detail and Snape passing on the Sword was essential in destroying destroying the horcruxes and eventually Voldemort himself. The conclusion thus, is that whatever method of detection Dumbledore had in mind was not working for some reason or the other.

Hermione's defensive protections is something Dumbledore must have anticipated and expected so I don't think that was the stumbling block.

So in my opinion, the only way Dumbledore could have pin-pointed their location was by giving them something that would enable Snape to keep track of them. He only gives them three things - a book, the deluminator and the snitch.

The deluminator is the most likely candidate for three reasons:

1. The obvious reason that the deluminator was the only thing not present at the campsite.
2. It was Dumbledore's own invention.
3. And we do know that it did work as a tracking device of sorts.

So what I think happened is when Snape did try to track Harry using the deluminator he realised that Ron had split from the group thus rendering Harry untraceable and him helpless.

Now once Phineas Nigellus tells him about Harry's location he immediately apparates to the Forest of Dean with the sword in hand. Here we have another question - how could Snape pinpoint Harry's location in such a vast area? Homenum Revelio as far as I know only tells us whether Humans are present or not and does not pinpoint their exact locations so that spell is useless in this situation.

Here is where Snape spots Ron and realises Ron's presence means the campsite is fairly near (This is assuming Dumbledore has told Snape about the deluminator) and chances his arm by casting the patronus and luck is on his side as Harry sees and follows the patronus.


"whew" that was a load of speculation. Feel free to rip my theory to shreds:blush:

HedwigOwl June 29th, 2013 10:42 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MerryLore (Post 6074308)
I have a theory.

We know Dumbledore taught Order members how to use their patronuses to send messages, and I'm guessing this would work even if the sender didn't know precisely where the person was located. Perhaps the patronus charm will locate the person for you as long as you know the general location. Maybe all Snape had to do was go to the Forest of Dean, cast the patronus charm, and follow his doe.

This sounds like a method Dumbledore would use. Also, right before the fight where Ron splits, they consult Phineas's portrait to ask questions about the sword, and Phineas tries several times to find out where he is. Phineas likely reported to Snape & Dumbledore's portrait that the trio had figured out that the sword could destroy horcruxes, but the problem remained about how to deliver it. In the Prince's Tale, Phineas relays that he heard Hermione mention it as she opened her bag -- obviously he had been staying close and listening for hints after his attempts failed.

OldMotherCrow July 1st, 2013 2:34 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HRW (Post 6074343)
So in my opinion, the only way Dumbledore could have pin-pointed their location was by giving them something that would enable Snape to keep track of them. He only gives them three things - a book, the deluminator and the snitch

I guess the problem I have with this theory is that Dumbledore gives the items to Harry, Ron, and Hermione-- not to Snape. Ron can track Harry using the Deluminator because Ron is the one with the Deluminator. Perhaps that seems weird-- the Deluminator somehow knows where Harry is and can lead Ron to the general area despite Harry being no where near the Deluminator (it might have had something to do with the tent light the Deluminator sucked in; it is all rather vague how it works, in my opinion)-- but I think that is the way the books showed it to work regardless of how much sense it makes: The person doing the tracking needs to have the item, not the person being tracked. Since Snape did not get any of those items, he did not have them so he could use them to track Harry, even if they possessed such a function.

I think Dumbledore must have meant to provide Snape with some means to reach Harry, but never got around to it. I like TreacleTartlet's idea with the mirrors. It seems likely to me that Dumbledore just failed to tell, in a timely manner, the people who would have carry out the communication, and he also failed to tell the plan to his portrait. I think that is something that goes with Dumbledore's personality.

RegulusBlackFan December 26th, 2013 8:47 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
At the end of the half blood prince, dumbledore drinks a potion which makes him both physically weak and for the time being, induces madness. Some say that this is the first time that dumbledore's invulnerability comes to an end and that he is more stereotypical of what he actually is, an old man.
Do you agree with this?
did you ever imagine him becoming A 'vulnerable' old man at any time earlier in the books?
If the death eaters hadn't invaded hogwarts with dumbledore killed, what longer term effects do you think the potion would have had?

wolfbrother January 3rd, 2014 7:33 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan (Post 6082225)
At the end of the half blood prince, dumbledore drinks a potion which makes him both physically weak and for the time being, induces madness. Some say that this is the first time that dumbledore's invulnerability comes to an end and that he is more stereotypical of what he actually is, an old man.
Do you agree with this?

Yup. Its the first time we see Dumbledore begging and pleading in a weakened state. Dumbledore, a man who always seemed to be in control, a man who even Voldemort was afraid of. The greatest wizard the world has known was literally being brought to his knees. That scene certainly had a big impact on me especially being a big fan of Dumbledore.

Quote:

did you ever imagine him becoming A 'vulnerable' old man at any time earlier in the books?
No.

Quote:

If the death eaters hadn't invaded hogwarts with dumbledore killed, what longer term effects do you think the potion would have had?
It doesn't look like the potion had any long term effects. Kreacher seemed to have survived without any issues.

Paul January 3rd, 2014 9:36 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RegulusBlackFan (Post 6082225)
At the end of the half blood prince, dumbledore drinks a potion which makes him both physically weak and for the time being, induces madness. Some say that this is the first time that dumbledore's invulnerability comes to an end and that he is more stereotypical of what he actually is, an old man.
Do you agree with this?
did you ever imagine him becoming A 'vulnerable' old man at any time earlier in the books?

I think more than showing him as a vulnerable old man it showed that he was human. Many people seemed to hold Dumbledore in a high regard and viewed him as perfect or invincible. The potion showed that he was a flawed human being like everyone else. He had regrets, and was certainly not invincible.

The interesting aspect though to this is that one of the few people who knew Dumbledore was human and not perfect was Harry, as demonstrated during the argument about Snape's loyalty at the Burrow. Harry the one who knew Dumbledore wasn't perfect was the only one to witness him at his lowest moment.

MerryLore January 29th, 2014 10:05 pm

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Dumbledore was my second favorite character in the series because of his complexity.

I see him as basically a good guy who wanted to win the war with as few sacrifices of innocent lives as possible, but he was willing to sacrifice them if he thought it was necessary. He never wanted Harry to die, I think, but he also wanted him to sacrifice himself, but at the same time hoping his theory was correct and Harry would live. I suspect he also knew Snape could very well be killed, but he hoped there was a chance of his survival as well. Dumbledore was willing to make the tough decisions and to carry them out, and take responsibility when things didn't work out like he thought they would (like keeping Sirius locked up in Grimmauld Place and thinking he'd actually stay there, as well as thinking Sirius and Snape could set their grudges aside and work together).

RemusLupinFan January 30th, 2014 1:44 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Dumbledore was also one of my favorite characters in the series. I appreciate what a tough place he was in, having to see the big picture and put people in danger in order to achieve the ultimate goal of defeating Voldemort.

ccollinsmith January 30th, 2014 2:56 am

Re: Albus Dumbledore: Character Analysis v2
 
Dumbledore is officially my second-favorite character, but I think he's really in a tie for first.

When I was reading the text, my primary investment was in Snape's story because I had wanted to know ever since GoF whether or not he had really turned away from the Death Eaters. To be honest, Harry's story didn't really interest me as much until the end of Deathly Hallows, when he had to make those terrible choices... and chose wisely.

What's interesting to me, though, is that when I think about it my investment in Snape's story was equally an investment in Dumbledore. I believed that Dumbledore saw potential there... and after reading DH, I believed that a key reason that he took on Snape was that he could see in Snape his own poor youthful choices.

But as for Dumbledore himself... Until DH, I was never really very curious about his story. It never really occurred to me that he had one! I just took him at face value. It was a given, to me, that he was wise and doing what needed to be done to fight Voldemort, etc. So his backstory really took me by surprise, as did his message through Snape to Harry.

I think it's because I was never really curious about his story throughout the first six books that he never took over as my actual favorite character. But in reality, I am every bit as passionate about Dumbledore as I am about Snape. There just has never been as much opportunity to talk about him.

I agree with Merry that he had tough choices to make. I have never believed that he was merely using Severus Snape. I have always believed that his primary aim was to redeem him. I have never believed that he was merely using Harry. I have always believed that his primary aim was to save everything... and train Harry up to make the right choices so that everything (including Harry if possible) could be saved.

I agree that Dumbledore was in a tough place. I have always likened him to a general in a time of war, having to make calls to sacrifice people he cared about. But one thing I admire tremendously about Dumbledore is that did not ask anyone to make a sacrifice that he was not ultimately willing to make himself.

Yes, Dumbledore is definitely in a tie for my favorite character. :)


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