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-   -   Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=101059)

Daelin May 24th, 2007 2:25 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Sorry, Lillbet, I lapsed into game-show persona there. :p

sparkly May 24th, 2007 3:44 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillbet (Post 4526489)
I agree, if Harry dies then it would be meaningless if Voldemort survives and escapes justice. On the other hand, if Harry dies and takes Voldemort with him, that would certainly be in line with the "moral" and "unpredictable" streak we've seen in the books so far.

If Harry dies while defeating Voldermort, it makes the prophecy meaningless. If JKR was going to kill both, I can't see her establishing the prophecy as a major plot device. But she has devoted a lot of the story-line to the prophecy, and that tells me one or the other will survive the confrontation. I seriously doubt the survivor will be Voldermort, so it most likely will be Harry who lives.

TreacleFudge May 24th, 2007 3:52 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkly (Post 4527498)
If Harry dies while defeating Voldermort, it makes the prophecy meaningless. If JKR was going to kill both, I can't see her establishing the prophecy as a major plot device. But she has devoted a lot of the story-line to the prophecy, and that tells me one or the other will survive the confrontation. I seriously doubt the survivor will be Voldermort, so it most likely will be Harry who lives.

Agreed! Dont die Harry!

ID824 May 24th, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I think he will die in his fight with Voldemort, but that he has an accidental horcrux out there and that he will come back to life shortly after his death.

catch128 May 24th, 2007 5:30 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by T__Riddle (Post 4329521)
I have always felt that Ginny has given Harry more purpose than just defeating the Voldemort and saving the world, but I have never thought about her giving him a potential life after DH, and now I think about it you are quite right.

:huh: Hmmm... I don't know. I mean Ginny obiously gives Harry a reason to live, but really, what about Hermionie and Ron, thery were the only "family" he knew and he was willing to leave them behind to go after voldermort. Besides deep down I think Ginny is going to be the barrier seperating life and death in the end anyway. Dumbledore always said the one thing harry had that voldermort never understood was love and voldermort might use that to his advantage. He might use Ginny to weaken harry. In the end Harry might die fromt the effort it takes to defeat the dark lord. But he is not a horcrux. If he was a part of voldermort's soul he would not be trying to murder harry I mean that is like suicide pretty much. That is killing a part of your soul. Even Voldermort has a mind.

Lillbet May 24th, 2007 7:47 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Daelin (Post 4527399)
Sorry, Lillbet, I lapsed into game-show persona there. :p

Next you'll be telling me what I've won. Hope it's something good! ;) :D


Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkly (Post 4527498)
If Harry dies while defeating Voldermort, it makes the prophecy meaningless. If JKR was going to kill both, I can't see her establishing the prophecy as a major plot device. But she has devoted a lot of the story-line to the prophecy, and that tells me one or the other will survive the confrontation. I seriously doubt the survivor will be Voldermort, so it most likely will be Harry who lives.

You've hit the nail on the head- the prophecy is a plot device. A plot device which, as Dumbledore pointed out, would be rendered moot if either Harry or Voldemort walked away. There's one book left and one of them might. We don't know this. Yet.

While we're at it, let's think about a plot device. A plot device is defined thus:

Quote:

a person or an object introduced to a story to affect or advance the plot.
The prophecy does that- it advances the plot and makes us think the ending will come about a certain way. But it's not the only plot device and not the only thing that informs readers and points them toward the ending. While the prophecy says "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...", there may be a twist at the end (plot twists are also a form of plot device) that renders the prophesy moot.

One of the reasons I'm able to entertain the idea that Harry will die and take Voldemort with him is that Sybil Trelawney was vague enough in her prophesizing that readers thought she meant Neville for a bit.

Look at another one of her predictions:

Quote:

The second prediction occurred during the events of The Prisoner of Azkaban'. Trelawney again fell into a trance and recited:

"It will happen tonight. The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained these 12 years. Tonight, before midnight... the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servant's aid, greater and more terrible than he ever was. Tonight... before midnight... the servant... will set out... to rejoin... his master...."

This prophecy was fulfilled when Peter Pettigrew's true identity was revealed and he escaped to rejoin Voldemort.
When I first read that I, like most folks, thought it was Sirius she was referring to. Totally valid assumption- he was suspected of having killed a lot of folks and everyone thought he was evil and therefore allied with Voldemort, he had been in Azkaban for 12 years, he broke out of prison, etc. The plot twist was that it was Peter, who had been a rat for 12 years (being chained to his animagus form perhaps?), and was rejoining his master.

Sticking to the conventions of storytelling that everyone seems to be so fond of, it's obvious that Voldemort will die, so that's a given. He's afraid of death, he's got to be punished, and Azkaban, being the only real punishment in the wizarding world isn't enough. We want Voldemort's blood, right? Well, I think we're going to get it. However, rather than the prophecy coming true as most of us assume- Harry kills Voldemort and we all live happily ever after- I think there's going to be another plot twist and Harry will lose his life as well.

Given Trelawney's track record and the vagueness of her prophecies I wouldn't be at all surprised if this were the outcome. These books have included so many twists and turns, that expectiing Harry to survive just out of hand, because "OMG, he just HAS to!" seems ridiculous.

alyssareiner May 24th, 2007 7:50 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I would be very disappointd if harry died in book 7. He is the hero of the series, it wouldn't be right for him to fail. I think lots of other people will die, obviously he needs to finish it off solo, but i would not be happy if he died.

HMN May 24th, 2007 10:06 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkly (Post 4527498)
If Harry dies while defeating Voldermort, it makes the prophecy meaningless. If JKR was going to kill both, I can't see her establishing the prophecy as a major plot device. But she has devoted a lot of the story-line to the prophecy, and that tells me one or the other will survive the confrontation. I seriously doubt the survivor will be Voldermort, so it most likely will be Harry who lives.

Over the last month I have been convincing myself that Harry will die - that he'll have to sacrifice himself somehow. But you are right about the propehcy - why base a whole book on it if both Harry and Voldemort die. That is such good thinking - it is so obvious.

Can JKR possibly let Harry die and let Voldemort live? It is a frightening thought. Even if he was left say, without his Horcruxes or even without his powers, I can't imagine how I'd feel walking away from the series. I'm off to change my post in "are you a seer..."

PotterFreak0515 May 24th, 2007 10:24 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Live. I almost wish he'd die, but judging from things Jo has said in interviews, I think he'll live.

sparkly May 25th, 2007 4:19 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillbet (Post 4528393)
The prophecy does that- it advances the plot and makes us think the ending will come about a certain way. But it's not the only plot device and not the only thing that informs readers and points them toward the ending. While the prophecy says "either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...", there may be a twist at the end (plot twists are also a form of plot device) that renders the prophesy moot.

One of the reasons I'm able to entertain the idea that Harry will die and take Voldemort with him is that Sybil Trelawney was vague enough in her prophesizing that readers thought she meant Neville for a bit.

....

Sticking to the conventions of storytelling that everyone seems to be so fond of, it's obvious that Voldemort will die, so that's a given. He's afraid of death, he's got to be punished, and Azkaban, being the only real punishment in the wizarding world isn't enough. We want Voldemort's blood, right? Well, I think we're going to get it. However, rather than the prophecy coming true as most of us assume- Harry kills Voldemort and we all live happily ever after- I think there's going to be another plot twist and Harry will lose his life as well.

Given Trelawney's track record and the vagueness of her prophecies I wouldn't be at all surprised if this were the outcome. These books have included so many twists and turns, that expectiing Harry to survive just out of hand, because "OMG, he just HAS to!" seems ridiculous.

Introducing a plot twist at that level of significance at the end of the series that renders the prophecy meaningless, after relying so heavily on the prophecy until that point to move the story along, is spectacularly poor writing. I don't think JKR would stoop to trickery of that sort when she's shown she can write a great mystery without unannounced plot twists. Her revelations have all been heavily foreshadowed to this point and no one has been able to demonstrate that Harry dying is at all foreshadowed.

I don't expect Harry to live happily ever after, although I do expect him to survive. There are more than just two choices - Harry lives happily ever after, or he dies - and I fully expect JKR to make a different choice. Harry has already been emotionally damaged by his upbringing with the Dursleys and he will not be able to destroy Voldermort without suffering more damage. Will he be able to build a life after Voldermort is gone? I think so, but it will take some work on his part and the part of the people who care about Harry.

lindaluna May 25th, 2007 8:51 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
The Scholastic website quiz is interesting. The voters apparently don't think anyone will die! Even Voldemort! I think the maximum percentage for anyone is Voldie at 23%. So 77% think he'll live! Bizarre! Could Harry come up with a peaceful solution? Shrinking potion so Voldie gets to start over with loving parents? Breaking his wand?

(Unless a non choice registers as "live")

Discordia May 25th, 2007 2:53 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Will Harry live or die.....you know I think that it s apart of every heroe's journey if they are willing to make that ultimate sacrifice. Harry has already lost his parents, his godfather, and finally his mentor. Its like they are trying to strip Harry down to see what he's really made of. Even through all that he's been through he's survived. He hasn't curled up some where and just waiting to die. Harry knows the risks and he is willing to go on a suicide mission to save his world. People have died for him and Harry is going to do whatever it takes to defeat Voldemort. So if he dies I would not be surprised.

Lillbet May 25th, 2007 3:27 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkly (Post 4529169)
Introducing a plot twist at that level of significance at the end of the series that renders the prophecy meaningless, after relying so heavily on the prophecy until that point to move the story along, is spectacularly poor writing. I don't think JKR would stoop to trickery of that sort when she's shown she can write a great mystery without unannounced plot twists. Her revelations have all been heavily foreshadowed to this point and no one has been able to demonstrate that Harry dying is at all foreshadowed.

Here's the thing: I didn't decide Harry would die just on a whim to annoy you or anyone else, I got that idea from reading these books- the same ones you are reading.

I think that JKR has written it so that Voldemort will die, but for Harry it could go either way. Based on Harry's knack for wanting to save people (as Hermione remarks he has a "saving people thing"), and the fact that he cares about his friends and would do anything for them (and they for him), he might be put in a situation where he would lose/give up his life to save others.

I think the books foreshadow this perfectly- Lily sacrificed herself out of love for her son, and it's not bad writing or an "unannounced plot twist" if Harry were to finally take that lesson to heart and put himself between Voldemort and the rest of the wizarding world. Harry broke up with Ginny to "save" her- regardless of whether you think that's noble or selfish (different thread, we're not getting into that here)- it shows that he is willing to give something up if he even for a moment thinks it will help save someone else. And think of the countless times he pulled on his Invisibility Cloak to do something no one asked him to do because he thought it was required of him- to help, protect, save. He's made mistakes, he could die- especially now that he's older and not under the "protection" of the Dursleys, something that has been alluded to often. Now that his blood is running through Voldemort's veins it seems like Harry's more vulnerable than ever. The stakes have gotten higher as the books progressed and JKR has mentioned that the next death would be big because this is evil and evil doesn't take secondary characters (I'll try and find that quote if I can). Basically, JKR has written Harry to be someone who is flawed, but good and capable of selfless acts, but also able to be hurt- emotionally and physically- so a "plot twist" like that would be totally in line with the rest of the books.

(By the way, plot twists are not always "unannounced."
Quote:

Some "twists" can be predicted and are preempted by numerous hints whereas others are a complete shock - most are somewhere in the middle with some people foreseeing them and others not.
Many good writers and skilled filmmakers have used plot twists to great effect. It is not necessarily a hallmark of bad writing.)

The prophecy is important, true, but again- you have to look at Trelawney's record. Her prophecies are vague and cryptic and don't make sense until well after the fact- JKR wrote her that way on purpose. According to the Bloomsbury website "Swot Up on Potter" (and most scholarly writings on culture in general) the sybils of Ancient Greece and Rome were known for making cryptic predictions about the future, which often could not be understood until they had already come to pass. This might also happen with "the" prophecy- we can intrepret it now, but it won't really make sense until the final battle and that's totally in line with all of the foreshadowing that's gone before.

Makes sense to me: Remember when Trelawney predicted that 'one of our number will not be with us in the spring'? (that was paraphrasing- I can't find the exact quote, but I'll keep looking).

"Oho! Sounds like death to me!" the reader might say.

But no, Hermione ditches Divination and is no longer "with" the rest of the class. As JKR has said, "both Trelawney and I have worded the prophecy very carefully." which means we might not be reading it for all it's worth, but taking it at face value for now because we don't have enough to go on. Really. Reread the prophecy- there are no names, which is why folks assumed the prophecy was about Neville since his folks also thrice defied Voldemort. That prophecy is cryptic and it is built for a twist ending.

Trelawney predicts a death of someone born in midwinter and we later find out that Voldemort was born on New Year's Eve. Despite that, she continues to predict Harry's death- she is unswayed and goofy as she is the fact that she is unwavering in her belief that Harry is in danger sends out warning signals to me as a reader. Since her prophecy will likely not be understood until later, for now it is just a bug in our ear that something life-changing is going to happen- we know there will be a final battle between the two but more than that we can't tell. Maybe Harry will lose his powers and "die" as a wizard when Voldemort "dies" (taking Harry's powers?). Maybe he will lose Ginny and his love will "die" or his heart will break and he will be "dead" inside.

As for my assumptions being based on the premise that JKR is a poor writer, I would have to disagree with you heartily! The fact that I am not certain Harry will live proves that she's doing an excellent job- she has me guessing, reading more deeply, etc. If I was certain without a doubt that Harry would live I wouldn't bother to keep reading, frankly, because there'd be no reason to. Part of the reason these books appeal is that the characters are human and you can't predict what will happen- Sirius was dashing, feckless, rash, and loving, but he died. Quite suddenly, in fact. While I didn't expect things to be easy for Harry, necessarily, killing Sirius was the kind of rug-yanking I didn't think JKR was capable of.

Edit: I keep coming up with new points, but I'll stop now and let someone else have a go. Promise. No, really.
;)

In July I may very well find out I'm wrong, and that's fine. If I am wrong, I'm banking on her not disappointing me with an easy ending that wastes all the the clues she's left.

antidark May 25th, 2007 5:56 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Voldemort dies and Harry lives. I think if the series is indeed finished this is the conclusion we need to end things and not keep it open for books. With Voldemort alive we want more. We want to find out. Its not over. Harry needs to triumph and finish his task.

sparkly May 26th, 2007 5:11 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillbet (Post 4529620)
Here's the thing: I didn't decide Harry would die just on a whim to annoy you or anyone else, I got that idea from reading these books- the same ones you are reading.

I think that JKR has written it so that Voldemort will die, but for Harry it could go either way. Based on Harry's knack for wanting to save people (as Hermione remarks he has a "saving people thing"), and the fact that he cares about his friends and would do anything for them (and they for him), he might be put in a situation where he would lose/give up his life to save others.

I think the books foreshadow this perfectly- Lily sacrificed herself out of love for her son, and it's not bad writing or an "unannounced plot twist" if Harry were to finally take that lesson to heart and put himself between Voldemort and the rest of the wizarding world. Harry broke up with Ginny to "save" her- regardless of whether you think that's noble or selfish (different thread, we're not getting into that here)- it shows that he is willing to give something up if he even for a moment thinks it will help save someone else. And think of the countless times he pulled on his Invisibility Cloak to do something no one asked him to do because he thought it was required of him- to help, protect, save. He's made mistakes, he could die- especially now that he's older and not under the "protection" of the Dursleys, something that has been alluded to often. Now that his blood is running through Voldemort's veins it seems like Harry's more vulnerable than ever. The stakes have gotten higher as the books progressed and JKR has mentioned that the next death would be big because this is evil and evil doesn't take secondary characters (I'll try and find that quote if I can). Basically, JKR has written Harry to be someone who is flawed, but good and capable of selfless acts, but also able to be hurt- emotionally and physically- so a "plot twist" like that would be totally in line with the rest of the books.

(By the way, plot twists are not always "unannounced."

I don't think that presents the whole story at this point. Harry has a noble streak, but JKR has gradually turned Harry's mind-set so that he's no longer looking over his shoulder at what he's lost. He has someone in his life that makes him happy - happier than he's ever been. I don't think JKR caused Harry to end his relationship with Ginny as a foreshadowing of his death; instead I think she's doing that because his journey is not finished. He still considers emotional connections to be a weakness despite Dumbledore's advice. I think JKR is going to show Harry's continuing maturity by causing him to realize that his feelings for Ginny are a source of strength and are not a weakness. That development in Harry's character will reduce his need to be noble and self-sacrificing and removes it as a foreshadowing of his death, in my opinion.


Quote:

Many good writers and skilled filmmakers have used plot twists to great effect. It is not necessarily a hallmark of bad writing.)
Plot twists that negate the prior build-up are poor writing. The prophecy has been a major component of the story since book five. Harry dying would mean that the prophecy is not important. That's a direct contradiction of what we've been told so far.

Quote:

The prophecy is important, true, but again- you have to look at Trelawney's record. Her prophecies are vague and cryptic and don't make sense until well after the fact- JKR wrote her that way on purpose. According to the Bloomsbury website "Swot Up on Potter" (and most scholarly writings on culture in general) the sybils of Ancient Greece and Rome were known for making cryptic predictions about the future, which often could not be understood until they had already come to pass. This might also happen with "the" prophecy- we can intrepret it now, but it won't really make sense until the final battle and that's totally in line with all of the foreshadowing that's gone before.

Makes sense to me: Remember when Trelawney predicted that 'one of our number will not be with us in the spring'? (that was paraphrasing- I can't find the exact quote, but I'll keep looking).

"Oho! Sounds like death to me!" the reader might say.

But no, Hermione ditches Divination and is no longer "with" the rest of the class. As JKR has said, "both Trelawney and I have worded the prophecy very carefully." which means we might not be reading it for all it's worth, but taking it at face value for now because we don't have enough to go on. Really. Reread the prophecy- there are no names, which is why folks assumed the prophecy was about Neville since his folks also thrice defied Voldemort. That prophecy is cryptic and it is built for a twist ending.

Trelawney predicts a death of someone born in midwinter and we later find out that Voldemort was born on New Year's Eve. Despite that, she continues to predict Harry's death- she is unswayed and goofy as she is the fact that she is unwavering in her belief that Harry is in danger sends out warning signals to me as a reader. Since her prophecy will likely not be understood until later, for now it is just a bug in our ear that something life-changing is going to happen- we know there will be a final battle between the two but more than that we can't tell. Maybe Harry will lose his powers and "die" as a wizard when Voldemort "dies" (taking Harry's powers?). Maybe he will lose Ginny and his love will "die" or his heart will break and he will be "dead" inside.
But Trelawney also predicted that Harry would live and have 12 children. Doesn't that contradict her earlier prophecies? Trelawney no longer predicts Harry's death, so her earlier statements must be weighed against her more recent predictions.

firth4eva May 26th, 2007 12:48 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I think Harry will die because then Jo will not be pressured into writing more books.

ginnyluv May 26th, 2007 9:01 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
NO, plain and simple SHE WILL NOT KILL HIM OFF she wants the book to do well and it stil would by REAL fans but the phonies followers who are in it for thew hype will not want to read it then ...its true

LovelyLadyBlack May 26th, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
No i will not have it,I mean she wouldnt .....she couldnt do it *sniff*:upset:
*seriously*Ah i'm kidding,but no i dont think JR would actually kill Harry.

ginnyluv May 26th, 2007 9:10 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
she won't unless his scar is a horcrux or somthing otherwise NO

bap0485 May 27th, 2007 2:07 am

firenze and Banes discussion about Harry
 
I wa just rereading the first book, and something caugh my eye. When Firenze helped Harry, Bane was upset, asking if he was trying to change fate. Then later, Firenze was saying that he hoped what the sky said about Harry's future wasn't true. So you think this eans Harry will die in the last book?


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