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-   -   Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=101059)

Ronny June 9th, 2007 4:06 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Pardon? I'm sorry but I didn't understand what you just wrote.

inkling7 June 9th, 2007 4:36 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Ok will he do a Sherlock Holmes or Agatha Christie and just disappear until everyone has forgotten about him? No as this idea too predictable and boring. So he will just fade out of our lives temporarily until he can live a reasonably normal life? I hope so.......

sweets7 June 9th, 2007 4:55 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Agatha Christie killed Poirot at the end of the final book; she did not want others to continue writing him after her death. I think that copyright holds for ninety years after an authors death (could be wrong) and after that the books and characters are open season, as in there is no longer an estate of the author you can apply to, to use the characters, plots etc. Lots of famous books have non - author written sequels, Pride and Prejudice and Gone with the wind, are just two.

That being said I do not see JKR killing Harry because she fears that other authors will start writing about him after she is no longer with us. If he is to die it will be in service to the plot and themes of her novels and what she thinks is the most appropriate ending to Harry's story. Even if he lives we will in all likelihood never get to read about it. We will finish DH, probably howl uncontrollably over the epilogue (no matter what happens) and that unfortunately will be the end of Harry's story (live or die) and our journey with him. I for one am just incredibly grateful we got a chance to enjoy the world and life’s of the characters at all. Okay now I am going to cry. :no:

Edit: Copyright holds for fifty years after an author’s death. Do not for the life of me know where I not ninety. Agatha Christie, only died over thirty years ago and her estate is managed by her grandson. By all accounts he runs it with an iron fist and the estate itself is worth hundreds of millions. The same is true of C.S Lewis estate which is run by his stepson. In all probability the estate of JK Rowling will many years in the future be run in a similar fashion, which means that in our lifetime we are unlikely to see any sort of sequel, relating to any of the characters or indeed different characters at Hogwarts. I really do not see her killing Harry with regard to debate she had on Richard and Judy relating to Conan Doyle or indeed Poirot.

Garnie June 10th, 2007 12:51 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
harry will survive! his chances are slim but i recon he will!
iv got a bet with some people on eoff about this! lol

lancane June 10th, 2007 3:40 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronny (Post 4557865)
But if Harry lives what will his victory be? Until the day he lies old and dying he will have no peace. Killing Voldemort does not kill those who loved him and they will target Potter, they will hound him and his friends until he's dead. And so a young man who just wants to live his life will also need to cope with the celebrity his inevitable victory will bring. What kind of life is that? All those who could have steered him down the right path are gone.

Victory and worth is in the eyes of the beholder! - So I gander you think that because of fame, he should die? Yes, he has lost almost all those he loves, but you can learn to love again; this is not Gandolf - Death is but another adventure... Especially in our world where there are vastly different beliefs of the after-life. Like I stated before, if he was 30 or so and had a good life, then I could see death as a way out as a bit of a noble victory, but he is barely a man and his life has been nothing short of tragic.

By saying one is noble to die for a cause they believe in, we give credit more to those whom value little of life: Gangs, Terrorists and so on, and this may be just literature to many; but literature changed the face of the planet, we have always told tales to escape the realism of life, same with television and movies...look at the bible and what it did, do we actually know if it is real? No, but it caused a shift in beliefs. Any form of literature can do the same and shift one's opinion as long as it is accepted by masses, death to be noble - then those whom kill for a cause they believe, whether right or wrong to them would be noble...Shakespear and Plato? They changed works of acting and philosophy, all it takes is the valued popularity to give one or a few the wrong ideas.

Do not believe for a moment that I am one of them forward christians whom think Potter is damnation to our children, all I am saying is that it will effect the masses whom read the books; Rowling has already stated that she does feel some could take the literature more deeply then others, so she knows it will effect others more feverishly. This is not Salvatore we are talking about who has many fans; this is the largest icon in the history of literature...Harry that is, and it is a fact. You kill and icon and in such a manner, then some will take it farther then expected by either believing it justifies their actions or gives them cause.

My biggest thing is that no matter the obscurity it holds; these novels went from children to teens, but knowing the esculation of violence among teens: such as gangs and hoodlum actions; if we say it is alright to suffer, to never truly have a life and to sacrifice yourself for a just cause - you believe in, then we give them that notion; that is why most literature, television and movies have a somewhat aggreable ending, or as happy to one as possible. We americans glorify mass murder and killers by allowing them to have novel deals and movies; other countries are not so, and we have the highest crime and murder rate in the world. No violence is justified, and we have far too many kids killing each other (school & gang shootings) then any other country.

Maybe it is just me, but we need happier stories to subdue the horrors of reality that we ourslelves created. Too many children are abused and treated poorly - much like Harry, and to say death is a true escape, we might as well hand out razorblades to those who try to help scuicidal teens, so they can just help them do what they feel is right. It is sad that many are glorifying Harry's death if that happens, when what they should be doing is hoping he lives, to finally have a good life, to me that is what makes a story worthy. Because there would be more truth in that then death, to struggle on after losing so much, that is life...not I lost it all, so I will kill you and die myself.

Moriath June 10th, 2007 9:54 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
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Ronny June 10th, 2007 10:13 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I don't want this topic ruined so I'll keep it as civil as I can. Those families within the Potterverse who agree with Lord Voldermort will always be a problem and Harry will face hostility once he wins. He will also be hounded by a media every bit as dishonest and unethical as our own. He has to deal with the loss of Dumbledore, Sirius and his parents. Pain that will never truly leave him. That is not a happy life. A happy life would be if he could forget all his misfortunes but that is not possible as, over time, our pain defines us and makes us stronger. Without grief we are not complete. I mean, I don't know what Rowling will do, that's her business, but (And I am being as polite as I can here) she should not be dictated to because a certain group of people have decided to hold her up as a role model. She has no responsibility for the feelings of others.

mysterious June 10th, 2007 1:21 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronny (Post 4559436)
I don't want this topic ruined so I'll keep it as civil as I can. Those families within the Potterverse who agree with Lord Voldermort will always be a problem and Harry will face hostility once he wins. He will also be hounded by a media every bit as dishonest and unethical as our own. He has to deal with the loss of Dumbledore, Sirius and his parents. Pain that will never truly leave him. That is not a happy life. A happy life would be if he could forget all his misfortunes but that is not possible as, over time, our pain defines us and makes us stronger. Without grief we are not complete. I mean, I don't know what Rowling will do, that's her business, but (And I am being as polite as I can here) she should not be dictated to because a certain group of people have decided to hold her up as a role model. She has no responsibility for the feelings of others.

So you are suggesting....that Harry will die? :huh:

Hinoema June 10th, 2007 1:34 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I think he's saying that Jo shouldn't let Harry live only because of potential fan reaction. No fears there; she's had the ending planned (and penned) long since and doesn't write to please fans.

I still stick by my main reason for his survival- the prophecy is very either-or, and to kill both would make the whole 'neither-other' semantic inapplicable.

inkling7 June 10th, 2007 3:30 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Good point about the prophecy Hinoema. That's exactly the way I read and interpreted the prophecy. It's got to be either one or the other but not both or neither (or should I say not neither nor but either or).

By the way I love your Weasley Wake Ups.

sweets7 June 10th, 2007 3:33 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lancane (Post 4559103)
Maybe it is just me, but we need happier stories to subdue the horrors of reality that we ourslelves created. Too many children are abused and treated poorly - much like Harry, and to say death is a true escape, we might as well hand out razorblades to those who try to help scuicidal teens, so they can just help them do what they feel is right. It is sad that many are glorifying Harry's death if that happens, when what they should be doing is hoping he lives, to finally have a good life, to me that is what makes a story worthy. Because there would be more truth in that then death, to struggle on after losing so much, that is life...not I lost it all, so I will kill you and die myself.

I do not really see any of these concerns influencing the way that JKR completes the novels. My goodness if she did she would go crazy. My friend said a very apt thing to me the other day, while we were watching 'the lives of others'. She said that while we really hope for a nice, sweet ending for the characters in films/books that is not always what is best for the story or indeed this type of ending would in many cases, diminish the story.

Harry Potter stories are books, just that. They are something of a phenomenon and are read by a wide variety of people but they are today, ten years, a hundred years from now just a piece of literature. JKR has no responsibility to society, the hard core fans, and the masses, just to her story. I think it is taking it too far to say it is responsible for the behaviour or enlightenment of society and that this is why it should end happily and sweet. If that is truly the case I for one would be terribly alarmed. A book is a book, a world constructed in the imagination of the author. Society is the responsibility of us all. One women is not responsible for that or indeed should take any responsibility in trying to improve it through a book.

ShadowAngel June 10th, 2007 3:42 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I believe Harry will die,and this is merely a theory that i've come up with since reading all the harry potter books for the past week,I think harry might in fact be one of the horcrux's(not sure if i spelt that right).When Voldemort killed harry's parents,he ended up transferring some of his power into harry(re-watch movie 1 and 2).For example,the fact that both Harry and Voldemort are both parselmouths.So if Harry is indeed a horcrux he would have to destory himself in order to get rid of Voldemort.

However,this doesn't make since to me,because if Harry was indeed one of the horcrux why would Voldemort try to kill him so many times?I guess I gotta try to figure out the rest.

If this theory isn't true then I do still believe that Harry will die,trying to protect his friends.

inkling7 June 10th, 2007 4:54 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Then if we interpret the prophecy as neither can live while the other survives as meaning that if Harry dies then Voldemort will live? (Was that the way the prophecy was worded? I can't remember now and the books aren't handy so please forgive any misquotes.)

_horcruxgirl_ June 10th, 2007 5:06 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
In my opinion Jk Rowling is going to kill Harry. There are these reasons for my opinion: dying for protecting one of his friends or if he is a horcrux. And killing Harry would do Jk rowling a favour : to complete the HP series. If she leaves him alive we (the fans) would want more books so that we could know what's going to happen to Harry.

Spritey June 10th, 2007 7:02 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by inkling7 (Post 4559915)
Then if we interpret the prophecy as neither can live while the other survives as meaning that if Harry dies then Voldemort will live? (Was that the way the prophecy was worded? I can't remember now and the books aren't handy so please forgive any misquotes.)

OotP"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches ... Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies ... And the Dark Lord will mark him as equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not ... And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives."


Though I honestly find it very hard to use the Prophecy as a jumping off point for theorising, since Jo seems to have made it clear (from my readings, at least, but all this Macbeth stuff throws my brain out of loop) that the only thing making Harry do anything now is his own drive to bring Voldemort down. It's like Dumbledore said, "You are setting too much store by the Prophecy!" I just find it hard to draw many conclusions based on it after all that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronny
I don't want this topic ruined so I'll keep it as civil as I can. Those families within the Potterverse who agree with Lord Voldermort will always be a problem and Harry will face hostility once he wins. He will also be hounded by a media every bit as dishonest and unethical as our own. He has to deal with the loss of Dumbledore, Sirius and his parents. Pain that will never truly leave him. That is not a happy life. A happy life would be if he could forget all his misfortunes but that is not possible as, over time, our pain defines us and makes us stronger. Without grief we are not complete. I mean, I don't know what Rowling will do, that's her business, but (And I am being as polite as I can here) she should not be dictated to because a certain group of people have decided to hold her up as a role model. She has no responsibility for the feelings of others.

I disagree. If he dies, I really don't think that will be why.

inkling7 June 11th, 2007 6:04 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
It also how you define living. If niether can live it may be that they can't have a life - as in quality of life and not qantity ie. length as in a long life while the other person is around - simply because Voldemort chooses to finish off Harry because he knows and believes in part of the prophecy. Harry can't have a 'life' knowing Voldemort is always going to be after him to finish him off and Voldemort - well he hasn't got much of a life anyway - he so obsessed with the prophecy and his being around forever.

beth83 June 12th, 2007 2:06 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4558011)
.
Edit: Copyright holds for fifty years after an author’s death. Do not for the life of me know where I not ninety. Agatha Christie, only died over thirty years ago and her estate is managed by her grandson. By all accounts he runs it with an iron fist and the estate itself is worth hundreds of millions. The same is true of C.S Lewis estate which is run by his stepson. In all probability the estate of JK Rowling will many years in the future be run in a similar fashion, which means that in our lifetime we are unlikely to see any sort of sequel, relating to any of the characters or indeed different characters at Hogwarts. I really do not see her killing Harry with regard to debate she had on Richard and Judy relating to Conan Doyle or indeed Poirot.

if memory serves me right c s lewis (or it could have been tolkein) sold the rights of his works to his son for £1. this way the copyrights would go to him. he is still living so the copyright remains in the family. slightly off topic sorry.

i can't see harry dying. yeah okay dumbledore says that he is paying to much attention to the prophecy, but as harry is still standing by it in theory it still applies. harry himself says at one point (no book so paraphrasing) i must be murdered or murderer.

as i can't see voldemort winning by any shot of imagination i still think voldemort will die (or suffer the fate worse than death) and harry will live.

sweets7 June 12th, 2007 9:47 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by beth83 (Post 4563642)
if memory serves me right c s lewis (or it could have been tolkein) sold the rights of his works to his son for £1. this way the copyrights would go to him. he is still living so the copyright remains in the family. slightly off topic

CS Lewis did not have any children only two Stepsons. He may have sold one of them the rights. I believe (could be wrong) that unless you sell or make alternative arrangements for your books or whatever, before your death, that it will automatically, as a rule of inheritance law pass to your nearest living relative. JM Barrie made arrangements before his death to leave the Peter Pan copyright to Great Ormonde St. Massive estates like those of CS Lewis and Agatha Christie are probably run by a board of people though.

EternalGryffon June 12th, 2007 10:05 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lancane (Post 4559103)
Victory and worth is in the eyes of the beholder! - So I gander you think that because of fame, he should die? Yes, he has lost almost all those he loves, but you can learn to love again; this is not Gandolf - Death is but another adventure... Especially in our world where there are vastly different beliefs of the after-life. Like I stated before, if he was 30 or so and had a good life, then I could see death as a way out as a bit of a noble victory, but he is barely a man and his life has been nothing short of tragic.

By saying one is noble to die for a cause they believe in, we give credit more to those whom value little of life: Gangs, Terrorists and so on, and this may be just literature to many; but literature changed the face of the planet, we have always told tales to escape the realism of life, same with television and movies...look at the bible and what it did, do we actually know if it is real? No, but it caused a shift in beliefs. Any form of literature can do the same and shift one's opinion as long as it is accepted by masses, death to be noble - then those whom kill for a cause they believe, whether right or wrong to them would be noble...Shakespear and Plato? They changed works of acting and philosophy, all it takes is the valued popularity to give one or a few the wrong ideas.

Do not believe for a moment that I am one of them forward christians whom think Potter is damnation to our children, all I am saying is that it will effect the masses whom read the books; Rowling has already stated that she does feel some could take the literature more deeply then others, so she knows it will effect others more feverishly. This is not Salvatore we are talking about who has many fans; this is the largest icon in the history of literature...Harry that is, and it is a fact. You kill and icon and in such a manner, then some will take it farther then expected by either believing it justifies their actions or gives them cause.

My biggest thing is that no matter the obscurity it holds; these novels went from children to teens, but knowing the esculation of violence among teens: such as gangs and hoodlum actions; if we say it is alright to suffer, to never truly have a life and to sacrifice yourself for a just cause - you believe in, then we give them that notion; that is why most literature, television and movies have a somewhat aggreable ending, or as happy to one as possible. We americans glorify mass murder and killers by allowing them to have novel deals and movies; other countries are not so, and we have the highest crime and murder rate in the world. No violence is justified, and we have far too many kids killing each other (school & gang shootings) then any other country.

Maybe it is just me, but we need happier stories to subdue the horrors of reality that we ourslelves created. Too many children are abused and treated poorly - much like Harry, and to say death is a true escape, we might as well hand out razorblades to those who try to help scuicidal teens, so they can just help them do what they feel is right. It is sad that many are glorifying Harry's death if that happens, when what they should be doing is hoping he lives, to finally have a good life, to me that is what makes a story worthy. Because there would be more truth in that then death, to struggle on after losing so much, that is life...not I lost it all, so I will kill you and die myself.

I agree with you 100%. After all, we just started to see the beginnings of a romance with Ginny in HBP. Why should Harry have to die defeating Voldemort? I feel it is more likely that Snape will show his true colors and die protecting Harry so that Harry may destroy Voldemort.:love:

JustAnIllusion June 13th, 2007 12:32 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Wow! Loads of thread pages. My eyes are tired from zooming from one side of the screen to the other =] I'm going to place my opinions beneath some of the common ideas and then add some of my own. I've just finished the mugglenet.com prediction book [which is fabulous!] and it's sparked loads of theories, which are now fireworking in my head.

I'm going to begin with: Yes, I believe that without a doubt, Harry should and shall survive through Book Seven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoonlightMagic (Post 4447575)
I don't think she would dare kill of Harry.. However, it would prevent people from ragging on J.K. Rowling about writing an eighth book.
At this point, I have my idea on what's going to happen, but I highly doubt it's right ;).

Oh; I've heard the "nobody can pressure her to write another if Harry dies..." theory stated, blocked, and stated once more.

As many have used as a deflection already, JKR wrote the last chapter of the series before she even had a publisher. Therefore, she ended the story how she believed it should be finished. The ragging on of fans didn't affect who lived and who died. :no:

As many have also said, JKR is going to write the book how she wishes to write the book. She's strong, and will surely write another captivating story about something or somebody else. I doubt she'll quit being an author just because HP is over, and will request an audience for her new book or books. Pressure by fans is not going to affect whether she feels Harry should or shouldn't die.

Finally, as only few have not stated:
Whether Harry lives or dies, there are going to be countless fans begging her to write another story in the magical world of wizardry. Many will want to see a second generation thing, or perhaps a series about the Marauders' era? There's always going to be evil, or a dark wizard attempting to undermine the good in society, and unless she destroys the wizarding world completely, there will always be something else for her to write about. Thus, Fanboys and fangirls will always be begging her for more.

I think that by writing a nice epilogue based on how Harry spent his life with Ginny, she would prevent future books just as well as killing Harry off. It would actually give fans more closure, and provide further evidence of underlying themes that are constantly present in every story.

Why would somebody want an 800 page novel on Harry's quiet, yet blissfully peaceful homelife? :rockon: They may still beg for the story Harry descendent, a hundred years later, fighting the evil whatever-his-name-would-be, but that would come no matter how the series ends.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Megg001 (Post 4446904)
Here's my two cents:
"Neither can live while the other survives" seems to imply that one or the other will have to die. We know that Voldemort can "survive" without being "alive" so, my feelings are, that this is where Jo was careful about her wording. It seems to me that if Harry dies, either sacrifices himself for a friend or just dies in battle, then the series has a very good chance of ending with Voldemort basically taking over the whole wizarding world. I don't think, or at least I don't want to believe, that Jo would do this...so, if someone is going to die, it won't be Harry (in my opinion, of course!)

I doubt that Voldemort would take over the wizarding world as the end to the series. Fans would freak out and ask for a new story with a new wizard to defeat him.

Though I'm on the fence about what the prophecy actually entails, I do agree that careful reading is the key to solving the puzzle. After describing the points of the prophecy separately, and in easy to understand statements, there is the following quote:

Quote:

There are braod and ambiruous statements, but that is no accident. On her website, J.K.R. has told us more than once that the prophecy can be interpreted in a number of ways, and that it requires very careful reading.
The rest refers to the prophecy being set in motion, etc. etc.
The prophecy's connection to Harry's death is only found after careful examination of the prophecy's words, and the order of such. Many people have posted it; Neither can live while the other survives.

At face value, one immediately believes that the wording is simple. They can't both live at the same time. One has to die for the other to remain living. Ultimately, one will destroy the other.

Right?

Perhaps.

My personal opinion is that the prophecy is very straightforward. To include the term "survives", one will most likely survive.

And I think it's safe to say that the one will not be Voldemort. :cool:


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