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-   -   Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=101059)

scienceofsleep June 13th, 2007 4:37 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
ive stated my theeories on this thread many times on my strong belief that harry will survive.
also, the first chapter of the first book was 'The Boy Who Lived'.

Come on, do you REALLLLY think JKR would end it with a 'the boy who lived (for 17 years. but guess what? lily's sacrifice was a waste, he ended up dying. TUFFFFF)'.

yeah he's going to go througha hell of a struggle and see deaths he cant handle, and get so scarred emotionally (and physically maybe) that even after defeating voldemort living would seem worthless. But this is Harry Potter. And in the end, good suffers yeah of course, but good wins. it doesnt matter what the hell kind of twist miss.rowlings going to introduce but its not going to be a 'evil wins' idea. too many sacrifices have been made just for harry to live and defeat LV. if he is to beat LV and DIE in the process its just another chain of 'sacrificing for the better of everyone', and i think thats been dug into too deeply to make another move exactly like that. Harry deserves to live. i really dont think she began writing a book about an 11 year old boy wizard who goes through mind boggling trauma every year in temporarily thwarting voldemort to end with the boy finishing LV for good but also himself.

HARRY LIVES =D (... hopefully)

Lillbet June 13th, 2007 3:23 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scienceofsleep (Post 4565121)
ive stated my theeories on this thread many times on my strong belief that harry will survive.
also, the first chapter of the first book was 'The Boy Who Lived'.

Come on, do you REALLLLY think JKR would end it with a 'the boy who lived (for 17 years. but guess what? lily's sacrifice was a waste, he ended up dying. TUFFFFF)'.

So then the last chapter would be called "The Boy Who Died." That was 6 books ago and the history of 11 years of Harry's anonymous life- in the meantime The Boy Who Lived has become "The Boy Who Scored", "The Boy Who Broke A Lot of Rules", "The Boy Who Snogged", and "The Boy Who Had a Hissy Fit." That doesn't mean he will or won't die.

I agree that it would really bite if he did die, but in the end JKR planned this ending years ago when she wrote it out- before we all fell in love with our marvelous, bespectacled, fallible Harry and wanted him to live.

scienceofsleep June 13th, 2007 3:27 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
you have a good point, but im not really basing my argument on the idea of the audience falling in love with harry preventing JKR to not kill him off, im just implying that in the way she herself began writing the books and the style that the books follow really do hint to me that harry will live, and that thats what was planned from the start, long before the fans kicked in.

hedwiiig June 13th, 2007 4:14 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Harry either has to murder Voldy or he dies. I think he'll live. For Ron and Hermione, I'm not so sure.

Lillbet June 13th, 2007 7:54 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scienceofsleep (Post 4565653)
you have a good point, but im not really basing my argument on the idea of the audience falling in love with harry preventing JKR to not kill him off, im just implying that in the way she herself began writing the books and the style that the books follow really do hint to me that harry will live, and that thats what was planned from the start, long before the fans kicked in.

I haven't read your theories, to be fair- I think my reaction stemmed from reading this: Come on, do you REALLLLY think JKR would end it with a 'the boy who lived (for 17 years. but guess what? lily's sacrifice was a waste, he ended up dying. TUFFFFF)'.

I've read the books as well yet I'm operating from a totally different perspective. For example, it seems perfectly logical to me that, because after 6 books Harry still can't seem to figure out that he needs his friends, he's going to lose them- or have to lose himself to save them. Harry may be Dumbledore's man, but he's also rash, overemotional, immature, rejecting any source of help or comfort, and he has no idea where to begin in his hunt- plus, the stakes are so much higher now than in the previous books. If all of that doesn't spell death I don't know what does. The fact that he's managed to survive thus far is wonderful, but the potential for him to botch the whole thing is there- starting with his rejection of Ginny, Ron and Hermione.

What I'm hoping for, the more I consider it, is that over the course of the final book Harry gets a good swift dose of reality that might help him save himself, but from the moment I finished HBP I was certain he would die and in this very moment, as I write and up until the book is in my hands and I'm reading the part where he actually doesn't die, I "REALLLLY" think he will. And if we're playing the JKR-card: she's killed off an innocent kid (Cedric), a doting godfather (Sirius), and a mentor (Dumbledore); she created a schism in a happy family (Percy); demoted an authority figure for paranoia and bad judgment (Fudge); put a drunkard in the Hogwarts staff room (Trelawney), and had a beloved character sent to prison (Hagrid). The "style" is that (as Voldemort says) Harry loses everything- taking that extra step to imply that he dies isn't that much of a stretch.

Just my two Knuts (wish I'd thought of that first, but another poster did :) )

sweets7 June 13th, 2007 8:06 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillbet (Post 4566216)
Harry may be Dumbledore's man, but he's also rash, overemotional, immature, rejecting any source of help or comfort, and he has no idea where to begin in his hunt

You forgot pathologically uncurious, common Harry; please ask Lupin a few questions about your parents. We would like to know; their jobs, their work for the order, everything, please please please

As a piece of literature, a Harry that sacrifices himself for the love of friends and their lifes, is very poignant and very powerful. If he does die, the end of the book will still have ameasure of happiness in the lifes, and a sense of being uplifted. If he lives that will not change; other characters we like are going to die anyway.

Muggle_George June 13th, 2007 9:05 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Evidence suggesting that he will:

Harry has a bit of Voldemort inside him (he recieved some of his powers on the night of his parents' death) and thus the evil energy will never be completely destroyed until Harry AND Voldemort are killed. Also, Harry's blood now runs through the Dark Lord's veins (GoF) and so their fates are too interconnected to not die together.

JK has set up the love connection between Ron and Hermione so Harry can die and there will still be a happy love story ending. (Ginny's going to have to suck it up!)

He will follow in Dumbledore's footsteps. There have been many parallels between his life and Dumbledore's and it would make sense for him to die nobly for a cause.

JK seems very adamant about finishing the Harry Potter series after this book, and she will never stop being pressured into writing a new one unless she kills Harry off. Plus she says that she is sure the story will end after book seven and that there is no chance that it could continue. This doesn't necessarily mean that Harry will die, but it suggests it.
Evidence suggesting he won't:

It's a book that is sort of intended for children (it's not really though, but that's what it says, anyway). JK seems to be a fan of good always prevailing in the end and it would be very different if Harry died.

SO MANY people think he will die that it is almost considered to be a fact and JK has never ended a Harry Potter book predictibly yet. By killing Harry she would be giving the readers exactly what they thought was coming, and I think it would be an even bigger surprise to make him live. His impendding death is so overly hyped and expected that it would blow readers' minds if the series ended in some other way.



There are some facts I have taken into account. I think about them every day and I can't decide whether he will live or die. I think that no matter what people think, it's still a toss-up. We never can be sure when it comes to Harry Potter, but we know whatever JK does, it will be the best thing possible.

HAVortexDude June 14th, 2007 3:36 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I think that Harry will live, but will not come out the same. Maybe he loses his magical ability or something else. I just find the fact that he has one brown eye and one green eye on the US cover for Deathly Hallows very important.

Muggle_George June 14th, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I agree with the eye color thing. JK wouldn't just put that in for no reason. Maybe since Green is the color of Slytherin, his green eye represents the piece of voldemort that is inside him that was transferred to him on the night of his parents' deaths. And maybe this book will be all about the internal battle that rages inside Harry between himself (the side of good) and his connection to Voldemort that he does not like but is forced to possess. Just a thought.

JustAnIllusion June 14th, 2007 11:22 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillbet (Post 4565639)
So then the last chapter would be called "The Boy Who Died." That was 6 books ago and the history of 11 years of Harry's anonymous life- in the meantime The Boy Who Lived has become "The Boy Who Scored", "The Boy Who Broke A Lot of Rules", "The Boy Who Snogged", and "The Boy Who Had a Hissy Fit." That doesn't mean he will or won't die.

I agree that it would really bite if he did die, but in the end JKR planned this ending years ago when she wrote it out- before we all fell in love with our marvelous, bespectacled, fallible Harry and wanted him to live.

I think that the important point is that JK fell in love with the marvelous, bespectacled, fallible Harry, and wants him to live. :tu: We fell in love as well, but she'll end the story how she wants to. She wouldn't have given him his friends, as well as Ginny, if she didn't plan for him to live on.

I don't see this story as a tragedy. :no:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muggle_George (Post 4568662)
I agree with the eye color thing. JK wouldn't just put that in for no reason. Maybe since Green is the color of Slytherin, his green eye represents the piece of voldemort that is inside him that was transferred to him on the night of his parents' deaths. And maybe this book will be all about the internal battle that rages inside Harry between himself (the side of good) and his connection to Voldemort that he does not like but is forced to possess. Just a thought.

I agree and disagree. There is a battle raging within Harry [if he is a horcrux and/or contains a bit of Voldie], but I think it is the choice between what is right and what is easy, whether he should accept help, and battling love versus hate. The green eye[s], however, came from Lily, so I don't see how that would represent evil. If anything, it represents love. :love:

I think that by defeating Voldemort, Harry will live, but as many said, he will be changed. The eye color change may represent that. The loss of the green might also represent Harry accepting the loss of his parents, and moving on with his new family [meaning his friends and Ginny :rockon:].

sweets7 June 15th, 2007 1:00 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JustAnIllusion (Post 4568702)
She wouldn't have given him his friends, as well as Ginny, if she didn't plan for him to live on.

Course she would, it would be unrealistic otherwise. It is this that would give his death more bite. The pain of those who have to struggle on; the future that will never be. Not saying he will die, totally ambivalent about it

JustAnIllusion June 15th, 2007 1:59 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4568848)
Course she would, it would be unrealistic otherwise. It is this that would give his death more bite. The pain of those who have to struggle on; the future that will never be. Not saying he will die, totally ambivalent about it

I definitely agree that it would be unrealistic. I disagree that JKR would intensify the bite of Harry's death [which I believe will not occur until he's a very old wizard...]. If JKR killed Harry, then I doubt that she would do it in the form of a tragedy. Harry, IMO, doesn't seem to show traits of an epic/tragic hero. :no:

I think the way the JKR appears to feel about Harry and Ginny's relationship [of course I'm simply infering] shows that they've got a future. It seems that she's giving him a reason to live on, rather than leave his pained life to join his family behind the veil. She's giving him a future. Taking it away would be cruel, for all the characters as well as the readers.

Those aren't the lessons that have been portrayed throughout the previous books. I doubt she'll spring it on us now.

stunnedtina June 15th, 2007 3:08 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I believe that Harry will live. I've went both ways on speculating. If he dies I think the fans will really be let down. He is the main character of the books, the title character and I just can't see Harry dying. I know that there have been tons of books out there where the main character of the book dies and it ends up being a fitting end.
With Harry though, I want to know he has a good life. He has something after defeating Voldemort and goes on with his life and makes something great of it.
His parents have died, his God father, his mentor and head of Hogwarts. I mean it would be incredibly sad and heartbreaking for the Hero of the story to die.
I vote that he'll live!

WandaEvans June 15th, 2007 9:40 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
No. Harry will not die.

Either Harry is the one who was spared (and then Ron & Hermione bite it) OR

Ron is the one who was spared and Fred & George bite it.

Either way, Harry lives (and so does Ron).

Taylor_Elise June 15th, 2007 10:34 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
It's difficult to fully comprehend or guess at what will happen in the last installment because obviously Jo doesn't want it to be incredibly predictable. However, I think she leaves us enough clues throughout the series so that we can at least take a stab at what might happen.

Sorry if this has been posted before, but here's what I think will happen:

Harry has to find the Horcruxes to defeat Voldemort, firstly. Now, it's interesting to note that when Harry went with Dumbledore to the cave in search of a Horcrux in HBP, the whole time I felt it was painfully obvious that Harry was far too inexperienced to have done that on his own...
But in summary, during Harry's search for the Horcruxes, his loyal friends Ron and Hermione will be there to help. Perhaps one or both of them will die in this quest, but my hypothesis is that Ron, who is more Harry's best friend than Hermione, will somehow attempt to spare Harry or save him from something by standing in the way and Ron will die instead. In short, Harry will ultimately, literally as Jo says it must be, face Voldemort completely alone, no friends, no mentors, no nothing.

Eventually, as close as I can get to the ending, I say that Harry faces Voldemort alone, Ron has died, Hermione is quite possibly injured, and Voldemort and Harry end up killing each other. I still can't quite see Harry using Avada Kedavra yet, but perhaps there's some developing we'll see yet in our main character. But I don't see Harry surviving this encounter--he's gone through too much and lost too much, not to mention his death would result in his reunion with family & Dumbledore.

This is just my theory, though, and again sorry if it's been brought up before, I'm still fairly new to forums! :)

Anyone have anything to add or agree on with this?

sparkly June 16th, 2007 2:17 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Taylor_Elise (Post 4570525)
It's difficult to fully comprehend or guess at what will happen in the last installment because obviously Jo doesn't want it to be incredibly predictable. However, I think she leaves us enough clues throughout the series so that we can at least take a stab at what might happen.

Sorry if this has been posted before, but here's what I think will happen:

Harry has to find the Horcruxes to defeat Voldemort, firstly. Now, it's interesting to note that when Harry went with Dumbledore to the cave in search of a Horcrux in HBP, the whole time I felt it was painfully obvious that Harry was far too inexperienced to have done that on his own...
But in summary, during Harry's search for the Horcruxes, his loyal friends Ron and Hermione will be there to help. Perhaps one or both of them will die in this quest, but my hypothesis is that Ron, who is more Harry's best friend than Hermione, will somehow attempt to spare Harry or save him from something by standing in the way and Ron will die instead. In short, Harry will ultimately, literally as Jo says it must be, face Voldemort completely alone, no friends, no mentors, no nothing.

Eventually, as close as I can get to the ending, I say that Harry faces Voldemort alone, Ron has died, Hermione is quite possibly injured, and Voldemort and Harry end up killing each other. I still can't quite see Harry using Avada Kedavra yet, but perhaps there's some developing we'll see yet in our main character. But I don't see Harry surviving this encounter--he's gone through too much and lost too much, not to mention his death would result in his reunion with family & Dumbledore.

This is just my theory, though, and again sorry if it's been brought up before, I'm still fairly new to forums! :)

Anyone have anything to add or agree on with this?

Welcome to the forums!

I don't think JKR is writing in the way you're proposing. Harry is no longer looking back to the people he's lost - he was happier than he's ever been at the end of HBP. Harry is gradually letting go of his losses and starting to build a life. He's temporarily set that new life aside to remove the obstacle (Voldermort) that remains to prevent him from living that life. I think JKR is writing Harry to move forward to fight for what he can have, not go back to what he's lost. As a result, I don't agree that Harry's lost too much or that JKR is writing his character to be reunited with the family that he's lost; instead she's writing him building a new family with Ron, Hermione and Ginny.

inufan625 June 16th, 2007 8:49 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
First
Quote:

Originally Posted by lillbet
What I'm hoping for, the more I consider it, is that over the course of the final book Harry gets a good swift dose of reality that might help him save himself, but from the moment I finished HBP I was certain he would die and in this very moment, as I write and up until the book is in my hands and I'm reading the part where he actually doesn't die, I "REALLLLY" think he will. And if we're playing the JKR-card: she's killed off an innocent kid (Cedric), a doting godfather (Sirius), and a mentor (Dumbledore); she created a schism in a happy family (Percy); demoted an authority figure for paranoia and bad judgment (Fudge); put a drunkard in the Hogwarts staff room (Trelawney), and had a beloved character sent to prison (Hagrid). The "style" is that (as Voldemort says) Harry loses everything- taking that extra step to imply that he dies isn't that much of a stretch.

and

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4566232)

As a piece of literature, a Harry that sacrifices himself for the love of friends and their lifes, is very poignant and very powerful. If he does die, the end of the book will still have a measure of happiness in the lifes, and a sense of being uplifted. If he lives that will not change; other characters we like are going to die anyway.

I disagree very strongly with this. There is nothing uplifting about Harry dying, no matter the reason. My real objection with this is that he shouldn't have to die. He just shouldn't. But beyond that I think we've seen enough sacrifice that one more isn't going to be all that poignant or powerful at least where I'm concerned.

Additionally you can't credit JKR with being unpredictable and then saying that she will do this or that because she has done it before.

Let's make a list of sacrifices:
James for Lily and Harry
Lily for Harry
Sirius for Harry (arguable since he was not saving Harry directly, but it was his purpose in leaving #12)
Dumbledore for Harry

Now potential sacrifices:
Ron for Harry - not dead yet but willing to die (Chess set, shrieking shack)
Neville for Harry - again arguable but I am unwilling to discount his actions in the DoM
Harry for Ginny in the CoS
Frank and Alice potentially for their son as we don't know for certain exactly what the DE's wanted to know

And this doesn't include all the other people who will likely die in DH and I'm sure I've left some things out. As well as not including deaths that weren't to protect someone else directly.

Next and I've posted this before, but I am also expanding on it:

There is nothing I can say that hasn't been said before, but here is my opinion.

I believe Harry will live, and I'll go so far as to prove myself a crazy fangirl by saying that I plan on reading the end at the store before buying it and if he dies I won't be buying it. First, because I think it's a cop out. Second, if I don't read the whole thing then it won't be as hard to pretend it didn't happen when I read fan-fiction. Lastly, I will be able to find out everything that happened on the internet rather than spend money on a book that I won't enjoy finishing. Should Harry be alive then I won't consider myself spoiled in the least, since it's the journey that's important.

That said and to stay on topic, here is why I don't think Harry is going to die, starting with debunking reasons he has to.

1. The 'so there can be no sequels if he dies' reason doesn't hold water. I can't count the number of fics I've seen where Harry dies only to be 'magically' brought back to life. When you are writing a series in a world of magic there are always ways around death. Even if JKR says dead means dead that doesn't mean someone trying to pick up her story would feel the same or respect that. Let's face it, if you steal someone else's work and try to make it your own, you are pretty short on respect to begin with. Also 'epilogue' It is possible to tie up the story neatly enough that the majority of fans will be satisfied not necessarily with the content but with the conclusion of it. Let's face it she could write 100 books and there would still be some people out there clamoring for more, even if there was no story left to tell.

2. JKR has made the afterlife a real and appealing place for Harry, what with having his family plus Dumbledore and Sirius waiting for him there to welcome him, and he doesn't fear death, ect... This one is probably the biggest problem for me. I see a huge difference between not fearing death and wanting to die. JKR couldn't let Harry fear death, lest he be just like Voldermort, so in turn she had to set up the afterlife as a place Harry wouldn't be afraid of. She gave her hero concrete proof that when his time comes his family will be there waiting to welcome him. More importantly though is that they will be waiting for him as long as it takes(they're dead- they don't have anywhere else to be), so there is no reason for him to check out without really getting to live first. His parents wouldn't want that for him, especially right after the threat to his life was removed and he would finally really be allowed to live.

3. JKR wants to show the importance/ beauty of sacrifice and Harry will be a tragic hero, ect... Isn't this what she did with Lily? We don't have to have Harry sacrifice his life to know that it can be an expression of the deepest love. That he is willing to should be enough and I believe that it is enough. And in my mind Harry already is a tragic hero. He has suffered and lost and suffered some more, and yet he hasn't given up. Yes, he's had his moments, but he's still out there determined to fight the good fight no matter the cost to himself. Let's give the kid a break already.

4. Harry is a horocrux (accidental or not) so he has to die to finish off Voldemort. First let me say I don't think he is one, but if I did, I still wouldn't think he had to die. If Harry is one, then he would have to die before Voldemort because canon leads us to believe that the bit in Voldemort has to be destroyed last or else he can come back because of the anchor the remaining bit would provide. So how is Harry supposed to kill Voldemort like the prophesy says he must, if he is already dead? Also I don't believe Harry would have to die to destroy the soul bit in him, is this was the case. The diary was damaged to destroy the soul, but it still existed after and the same was true for the ring. I would go so far to say that if Nagini is a horocrux, there would be a way to remove the soul piece without killing her, only it is easier just to kill a giant poisonous snake and what needs to be done anyway. (I think Nagini is a red herring but that's for another thread.)

5. Happily ever after would be cheesy, too predictable ect... This in itself seems to contradict the brother of this argument which states that Harry's death would be unpredictable and non cheesy for the simple fact that it is supported by the reasoning that Harry is to be a tragic hero. To clarify that a bit more. Doesn't that make him dying just as predictable as him living since it is a standard in the genre? Either ending is going to be predictable to someone so this excuse just doesn't hold water as far as I'm concerned. There is also the reasoning that there can't be a happily ever after for Harry no matter what happens. His parents can't come back. Sirius can't come back. Dumbledore can't come back. Harry can't unsuffer abuse at his relatives hands or unscar his emotions. All he can do is move forward and get on with living just like the rest of us. How is it cheesy to let him have a better life than he's known before. People do it all the time. Personally, I find that realistic. (of course I also married a boy I met when I was 14- whom it happens I dated then broke up with and then got back together with- take that as you will)

Now, why I think he will live.

1. JKR has set up a life for him after Voldemort. It's no secret that I am all for OBHWF. It gives Harry a living family to be a part of and a way to start his own.

2. I don't think killing Harry sends the right message. What is JKR trying to say? You were made an orphan as an infant, mistreated/abused as a child, only to find you are a wizard, but there's a catch, the crazed madman who murdered your parents is trying to come back and kill you and all over something you have no choice about and there is nothing you can do but lay down and die or kill him, so sorry that no matter how hard you fight, how much good you do, or how much you've overcome to be a good person, you don't get to ever really live. Where is the beauty in that, the hope, the good triumphing over evil? Personally, I don't see it, but that's just me.

Sephiran June 16th, 2007 12:59 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I, also think that Harry will survive. But we just have to be patient and wait 34 days and 11 hours to find out.

sweets7 June 16th, 2007 2:13 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by inufan625 (Post 4571233)
I disagree very strongly with this. There is nothing uplifting about Harry dying, no matter the reason. My real objection with this is that he shouldn't have to die. He just shouldn't. But beyond that I think we've seen enough sacrifice that one more isn't going to be all that poignant or powerful at least where I'm concerned.

No no no I do not mean there will be anything uplifting in his death. I mean that if he does die the epilogue will have uplifting information about those who survived, future life’s. Harry Potter stories are books, and fiction at that. I have read books that have resulted in a lot worse outcomes then the maybe/perhaps death of Harry, including non – fiction. It would be terribly sad but the books haven't always been barrels of laughs. If he lives great.

inufan625 June 16th, 2007 7:58 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4571428)
No no no I do not mean there will be anything uplifting in his death. I mean that if he does die the epilogue will have uplifting information about those who survived, future life’s. Harry Potter stories are books, and fiction at that. I have read books that have resulted in a lot worse outcomes then the maybe/perhaps death of Harry, including non – fiction. It would be terribly sad but the books haven't always been barrels of laughs. If he lives great.

In that case I agree. :tu:

I just misunderstood, which is easier to do when reading rather than hearing.

If Harry were to die the epilogue would have to be uplifting to keep entire series from feeling not worth it. I mean who wants to read seven books where in the end rocks fall and everyone dies. :lol:


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