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-   -   Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5 (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=101059)

MaxPower4567 May 27th, 2007 4:05 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I think that if Harry dies in 7 his scar being a horucrux is not the reason. Remember Voldemort did not think Harry was going to survive there first encounter. So why would he have made Harry's scar a horucrux if he thought that he would be destroying Harry, and therefore the horucrux right after he made it. (after the murder of Lilly or James).

Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkly (Post 4530752)
But Trelawney also predicted that Harry would live and have 12 children. Doesn't that contradict her earlier prophecies? Trelawney no longer predicts Harry's death, so her earlier statements must be weighed against her more recent predictions.


She only predicts this after Harry defies Umbridge. Most likly this is not a valid predciton but rather a way of showing her approval of Harry's quibbler interview

sparkly May 27th, 2007 4:57 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxPower4567 (Post 4532150)


She only predicts this after Harry defies Umbridge. Most likly this is not a valid predciton but rather a way of showing her approval of Harry's quibbler interview


I agree. I was responding to an earlier post that stated that Trelawney's predictions about Harry's death were foreshadowing his actual death. I don't think either were valid predictions, and since they contradict each other only one can come true.

Of course, Harry will die some day, but I don't think he's going to die in his confrontation with Voldermort.

Shannah May 27th, 2007 5:10 am

Re: firenze and Banes discussion about Harry
 
I think that we'll find out in July!

ginnyluv May 27th, 2007 5:21 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxPower4567 (Post 4532150)
I think that if Harry dies in 7 his scar being a horucrux is not the reason. Remember Voldemort did not think Harry was going to survive there first encounter. So why would he have made Harry's scar a horucrux if he thought that he would be destroying Harry, and therefore the horucrux right after he made it. (after the murder of Lilly or James).




She only predicts this after Harry defies Umbridge. Most likly this is not a valid predciton but rather a way of showing her approval of Harry's quibbler interview





it would have been a cool twist though

Savage May 27th, 2007 10:30 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Harry dying I is a very possible. Jk has shown that the good people can die in the story. Look at Sirus and Dumbledore. No one saw Dumbledore coming to an end but it happened. So I wouldnt be too surprised if he does. But after all hes done I think he deserves a break dont you?

Gnomiegarden May 27th, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
NO -!! I can not believe JKR would ever considered it. Like you all say it is a children's book, good must win over evil. I would be too shocked to believe that Harry, Ron, Ginny or Hermonie are all not safe through the books. But I had to go over Dumbledore's death 4 times before I believed he really died.

lindaluna May 27th, 2007 10:28 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
I didn't notice until this week that in the GOF DVD when Harry is unconcious at the world cup that his face blurs and almost there is a ghost figure on top of it.

Now I'm wondering if possibly HARRY cannot die:
  • PS/SS when he touched Quirrell
  • POA when he fell from broomstick
  • POA when he fell unconcious on the train
  • GOF at world cup campsite
  • GOF underwater when grindylows get him & they are Sparked off him BEFORE he touched his wand for ascendio!

And in the books there is a force that surges through Harry to protect him from Vernon in OOP and also with Mungdungus in HBP.

Now I'm wondering about the prophecy. If Harry and Voldie somehow SHARE part of each other's soul, can either DIE while the other LIVES ?

Nicole May 27th, 2007 10:45 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lindaluna (Post 4533316)
* GOF underwater when grindylows get him & they are Sparked off him BEFORE he touched his wand for ascendio!

Please leave movie scenes in Muggle Studies. While Harry did fight grindylows in GoF, it was well before reaching the 'captives' and Harry never cast a spell to rise to the surface. :)

lindaluna May 27th, 2007 11:03 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Guys - you're turning into the Inquisition Squad!

Rowena May 27th, 2007 11:31 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
If he dies, I will be EXTREMELY upset!!
He better not.

scienceofsleep May 27th, 2007 11:49 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
i think we need to look at J.K.Rowlings view of her fans. She gets a lot of influence on how she writes the book just by reading our forums, even if Harry's death makes sense in the long run, we still have to remember that Harry Potter appeals to many many people in younger audiences. Many of J.K.R's choices on how to write harry potter has to do with the impact it will have on the audience. Not only will there be a lot of unhappy fans if the main character of the book dies, but the point of reading the story does not exactly have to do with defeating voldemort, thats just Harry's main goal. The point of the books has to do with watching Harry grow and suceed with many many obstacles. I dont think as an audience that the ULTIMATE treat of the book series would be the death of the Dark Lord, and definitley not Harry dying alonside him. these are just some of the reasons i believe harry wont die..

Spritey May 27th, 2007 11:57 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scienceofsleep (Post 4533429)
i think we need to look at J.K.Rowlings view of her fans. She gets a lot of influence on how she writes the book just by reading our forums, even if Harry's death makes sense in the long run, we still have to remember that Harry Potter appeals to many many people in younger audiences. Many of J.K.R's choices on how to write harry potter has to do with the impact it will have on the audience. Not only will there be a lot of unhappy fans if the main character of the book dies, but the point of reading the story does not exactly have to do with defeating voldemort, thats just Harry's main goal. The point of the books has to do with watching Harry grow and suceed with many many obstacles. I dont think as an audience that the ULTIMATE treat of the book series would be the death of the Dark Lord, and definitley not Harry dying alonside him. these are just some of the reasons i believe harry wont die..

She doesn't, though. JKR's always said that she's writing primarily for herself, and that she won't "tone it down". I posted a bunch of quotes to that effect somewhere in this thread... they got lost, it looks like. I can find them again if anyone wants them :)

Also, wouldn't Harry looking Voldemort's worst fear in the eye bravely be a huge triumph?

(I had a 'Who's "she"? The cat's mother?' moment whilst I was writing this. It was in my mum's voice, unsurprisingly :lol: Rephrase, stat!)

eviljim13 May 28th, 2007 12:43 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Boy Howdy.At just about every important moment of his life Harry has been able to look death inthe face and survive.On the face of it this would seem to be kind of remarkable-but he IS the "Boy Who Lived"-why kill him now?NO REASON-Harry will go thru HELL but he will NOT die.Even the cover sugests that Harry has an advantage-Harry has palms up-life,living-versus Voildemort,palms down-defeat,giving in.Just one more thought on my account however I am firm in my beleif that Harry will live>Jo did not give us this truly heroic charecter only to kill him off at the end.Sorry,not buying this.

scienceofsleep May 28th, 2007 1:41 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

She doesn't, though. JKR's always said that she's writing primarily for herself, and that she won't "tone it down". I posted a bunch of quotes to that effect somewhere in this thread... they got lost, it looks like. I can find them again if anyone wants them

Also, wouldn't Harry looking Voldemort's worst fear in the eye bravely be a huge triumph?

(I had a 'Who's "she"? The cat's mother?' moment whilst I was writing this. It was in my mum's voice, unsurprisingly Rephrase, stat!)
I understand the JKR writes most of the book for herself, but im looking at it in a logical point of view. The author will naturally state that the book is writen exactly how she planned from the start, and im not calling JKR a liar here, but obviously changes will be made from fan reactions, im sure there are even little parts in the book that are sort of a fan-service bit. One of the biggest reasons why the twists in harry potter are so unidentifiable can easily be because JKR already knows everything we predict, assume and contemplate because of how vast the harry potter universe is in public. Harry's life is what we've followed throughout the entire book, and even if she's writing to herself once again i dont think the story began in her head as 7 books of trying to defeat voldemort and dying in the end even by defeating him. But rather 7 books spanning harry's life at hogwarts with minor and major obstacles, and surely it is at everyones best interest that even if dilema's arise in the 7th book, harry's life being the prominent force that drives all the books forward will not come to a heroic stop.

Spritey May 28th, 2007 2:38 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by scienceofsleep (Post 4533586)
I understand the JKR writes most of the book for herself, but im looking at it in a logical point of view. The author will naturally state that the book is writen exactly how she planned from the start, and im not calling JKR a liar here, but obviously changes will be made from fan reactions, im sure there are even little parts in the book that are sort of a fan-service bit. One of the biggest reasons why the twists in harry potter are so unidentifiable can easily be because JKR already knows everything we predict, assume and contemplate because of how vast the harry potter universe is in public. Harry's life is what we've followed throughout the entire book, and even if she's writing to herself once again i dont think the story began in her head as 7 books of trying to defeat voldemort and dying in the end even by defeating him. But rather 7 books spanning harry's life at hogwarts with minor and major obstacles, and surely it is at everyones best interest that even if dilema's arise in the 7th book, harry's life being the prominent force that drives all the books forward will not come to a heroic stop.

Hmm, but if that was the case, I think we'd have Alive!Dumbledore in DH (which Jo has vetoed). I really do believe her when she says she writes completely for herself. Oh, and I found those quotes, they were at the beginning of this thread (I am an idiot):

Quote:

Have you ever thought "Maybe I should tone it down"?

JKR: No. I know that sounds kind of brutal but no, I haven't. The bottom line is, I have to write the story I want to write. I never wrote them with a focus group of 8-year-olds in mind. I have to continue telling the story the way I want to tell it. I don't at all relish the idea of children in tears, and I absolutely don't deny it's frightening. But it's supposed to be frightening! And if you don't show how scary that is, you cannot show how incredibly brave Harry is. He's really brave, and he does, I think, one of his bravest things in this book: He can't save Cedric, but he wants to save Cedric's parents additional pain. He wants to bring back the body and treat it with respect.
and on the subject of age groups:

Quote:

DR: ... and if you've just joined us, we have a real treat this morning, having J.K. Rowling with us. She is Joanne Rowling, the author of the Harry Potter series. Three books that have ignited young *and* adult readers all around the world. If you'd like to join us 1-800-433-8850. What age group are you actually aiming for, Jo?

JKR: When I'm writing, I don't aim for any - any age group. I write these books entirely for myself. And in fact, before - before my British publisher Bloomsbury told me that they were going to market the books as for 9 year olds and above, I really had no idea. A vague idea, obviously. I mean, I was aware they weren't for 3 year olds, and I knew that probably 19 year olds would be wanting to read other stuff, although I've met quite a few 19 year olds since, so that's - that's a really nice thing. The optimum age, I'd definitely say is 9+ for these books.
I'm starting to think I should put them in my signature, I copy/paste them so often :D Anyway, I guess the one problem I have here is that death seems to be considered a failure in the context of this story, and I really have a hard time thinking like that. However, if I was a broken record at the beginning of this thread, I dread to think of where I am now, so I think I'm just gonna say "we'll see what happens in DH" and leave it for a while :)

Lillbet May 28th, 2007 5:52 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkly (Post 4530752)
Plot twists that negate the prior build-up are poor writing. The prophecy has been a major component of the story since book five. Harry dying would mean that the prophecy is not important. That's a direct contradiction of what we've been told so far.

Not really. The prophecy is vague and doesn't even name names. It serves merely as the catalyst that will bring the antagonist and protagonist together and it has been in place since the first book. When Dumbledore put Harry on the Dursley's doorstep, his actions were been dictated by the prophecy. Voldemort has been influenced by it as well: remember he chose Harry as his adversary because Harry was so like him that Voldemort considered him a threat. We guess it's Harry who is the subject of the prophecy, but we don't even know yet how James and Lily defied him thrice, and we had to be told that Neville wasn't The One, so clearly we don't have all the pieces in the puzzle.

Also, Dumbledore points out that if either or both of them walked away the prophecy would mean nothing. Of course, he knows that neither of them will. It almost seems that with every adventure Dumbledore's been grooming Harry to take on the role of Voldemort's opponent, likely because he knows that Voldemort, having chosen Harry as his adversary, will fight to the death of which he (LV) is so afraid.

The build-up so far is that Harry has overcome numerous obstacles, with the help of those who care about him, to meet Voldemort as an equal on a battlefield. As much as he's gone through, Harry is still an emotionally bruised teenager prone to mistakes and self-doubt but also possessing of a great heart and a keen mind. He's learned to love and care for people and that sacrifice is part of love. Therefore, his death would not, to repeat another poster, be a failure- especially if he died fighting tooth and nail for his friends and took Voldemort with him- either for the character or his creator. In my opinion.

Nightrush May 28th, 2007 7:56 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
From an aspiring writer's perspective, and with some knowledge from the multitude of writing classes I have attended, I can attest to the probable fact that JKR will write for herself and that any forum discussion is merely speculation and wouldn't be influential. She has created a modern day masterpiece in this series, something not many writers have done this century, and will let it write out as she has sees fit.

To me, killing Harry would turn this adventure into a tradegy, and after 6 books I personally have never felt this story was heading in that direction. It would be an awkward twist to suddenly change the overall tone, which killing off Harry would do. I've often said that she made it clear with the first chapter of the first book about his fate: The Boy Who Lived.

sparkly May 28th, 2007 8:53 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Lillbet (Post 4533979)
Not really. The prophecy is vague and doesn't even name names. It serves merely as the catalyst that will bring the antagonist and protagonist together and it has been in place since the first book. When Dumbledore put Harry on the Dursley's doorstep, his actions were been dictated by the prophecy. Voldemort has been influenced by it as well: remember he chose Harry as his adversary because Harry was so like him that Voldemort considered him a threat. We guess it's Harry who is the subject of the prophecy, but we don't even know yet how James and Lily defied him thrice, and we had to be told that Neville wasn't The One, so clearly we don't have all the pieces in the puzzle.

I think the books would have had to cast some doubt that Harry and Voldermort are the subjects of the prophecy, or at least provide some alternatives, if JKR was intending to reveal that the prophecy is meant for others. The only alternative was Neville and Dumbledore has already dismissed him as the subject of the prophecy. A new revelation in book 7 that the prophecy doesn't refer to Harry would have to be foreshadowed, I believe.

I don't think the books have been laid out in the way you describe: that Dumbledore made a mistake in determining the subjects of a prophecy about the destruction of the Dark Lord and that this prophecy is instead meant for other people. The prophecy is pretty significant: it says the person with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord is approaching. That means that someone else could defeat this Dark Lord and Harry has the bad luck to get chosen by Voldermort instead of whoever this random person is. Again, that renders the prophecy to be meaningless and I think there's been too much emphasis on the prophecy to have it trivialized as a mistake.

Lillbet May 28th, 2007 10:39 pm

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sparkly (Post 4534898)
I don't think the books have been laid out in the way you describe: that Dumbledore made a mistake in determining the subjects of a prophecy about the destruction of the Dark Lord and that this prophecy is instead meant for other people. The prophecy is pretty significant: it says the person with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord is approaching. That means that someone else could defeat this Dark Lord and Harry has the bad luck to get chosen by Voldermort instead of whoever this random person is. Again, that renders the prophecy to be meaningless and I think there's been too much emphasis on the prophecy to have it trivialized as a mistake.

We're going off track here, but before I try and steer this back, there's a great Dumbledore quote that says something to the effect of "I make mistakes just like anyone else, but because I'm quite intelligent my mistakes tend to be significantly larger." So nu, could be a big mistake, I'm thinking. Oop, went all Yiddish grandmother there. The point being, Dumbledore has been doing what he can with what little info he has. He has been all through the books.

But back to the subject at hand: the prophecy can't be called a mistake because yet since it's not exact enough and so far it hasn't been fully explained. It says: "Either must die at the hand of the other, for neither can live while the other survives." Nowhere does that say "But one of them has to live" or "One of them will definitely survive" it just says that Person A can't live while Person B is alive and vice versa, so one of them has to kill the other. OR maybe they both have to die because they both can't survive in the world. And it also doesn't say "Harry" or "Voldemort." It just doesn't.

And as a corollary, like Trelawney's last big prophecy (the one about Sirius and Wormtail) this prophecy is broken into pieces, so why assume it's all about one person? Maybe it's not all about Harry. Maybe Harry was chosen, but he still dies because maybe he's not the one with the power to defeat Voldemort. In the end, the prophecy is only a catalyst- it has weight with Voldemort because he is afraid and because he chose Harry to be his opponent and now has to kill his opponent or be killed by hiim. It has weight with Harry because of Voldemort's certainty and his attacks on Harry- he's not going to let up on Harry until one of them is dead. It doesn't say who will survive, though. We assume Voldemort will die (I can go along with that) but nobody can say that Harry will live. Dumbledore, who Harry respects and looks up to, doesn't even have enough info to give such an assurance. Harry is going into battle with the belief that he must and that he needs retribution for his parents' deaths, but not even the prophecy guarantees his safety. I'm a fan of narrative convention, but I have a hard time believing that the last book will follow such a cliched path.

Again, JKR has said that she "and Trelawney" worded the prophecy very carefully- and since the prophecy is appropriately vague and cryptic, that means to me that (although I assume Voldemort will die regardless) that the outcome may not be as cut and dried as Voldemort dying and Harry living.

eviljim13 May 29th, 2007 1:35 am

Re: Will Harry die in Deathly Hallows? v5
 
Responding to recent comments-Harry asks wether or not the prophecy means that he must kill Voldemort-DD says yes in an un-ambiguous fashion.So will Harry die in DH?NO-he will kill Voldemort and live!!He IS The Boy Who Lived:tu:


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