Chamber of Secrets

Chamber of Secrets (http://www.cosforums.com/index.php)
-   Legilimency Studies (http://www.cosforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=163)
-   -   Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=107895)

hermy_weasley2 July 13th, 2007 1:46 am

Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Welcome to the post-DH discussion of Remus Lupin. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis



1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What do we know about his relationships to Sirius Black/Fenrir Greyback/Alastor Moody/James Potter/Lily Evans/Peter Pettigrew/Severus Snape/Harry Potter?

2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?

3. Why didn’t Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?

4. What was Lupin’s role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?

sgwilliamson July 24th, 2007 5:15 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
[quote=hermy_weasley2;4629927]Welcome to the post-DH discussion of Remus Lupin. Previous discussion without spoilers can be found here: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis



1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What do we know about his relationships to Sirius Black/Fenrir Greyback/Alastor Moody/James Potter/Lily Evans/Peter Pettigrew/Severus Snape/Harry Potter?

I wish we had seen more of him - he really earned a place in my heart in PoA. Strength would be his constant support of the OOTP, and his role as the peacemaker. Biggest weakness is his self doubt. I don't think we know enough about him to make judgement on his relationships to most people.

2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?

If he truly loved her, and I think he did, marriage was the right decision, and once you marry you have a partner for life, so of course he was right to go home! That whole scene was so odd though, I was hoping Harry would knock him out. Did he think so little of Tonks that she would enter marriage lightly, without considering the consequences? And accepting them? Boys are so relationship-challenged. ;)

3. Why didnít Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?

Let's remember he thought Sirius thought HE was the spy. He didn't know that no one told Harry these suspicions, or ANYthing about his family. Looking at the situation with Tonks, he also might have thought that Harry wouldn't want to be associated with a werewolf. OMG can you imagine THAT intro at Number 4? Vernon would've had a coronary.

4. What was Lupinís role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?

I think so. Another of Lupin's strengths is his courage - you won't catch me living with those nutjobs!

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?

After seeing what his parents' sacrifice did to Harry, I'm sure going back to the battle was very difficult for him. However, as Sirius told us, there are things worth dying for, and I think he'd rather die knowing he helped make the world a better place for his son than sitting at home feeling useless. He has enough self-esteem issues without having survivor's guilt if he'd lived while Tonks died. Still, all so sad, making me teary!

padfootandme July 24th, 2007 5:34 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?
Yes, I really think he did the right thing by marrying Tonks. If he didn't, they would both be alone and depressed. If they love each other, what others think shouldn't matter. And Lupin definately made the right decision going back to them. He couldn't just abandon his wife and son for another group of kids. He would have been risking his life and his future as a dad for his son.

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?
I think Lupin did exactly what he was meant to do. There is no question in my mind that he would have been able to live with himself had he not gone to fight. His best friends died at Voldemort's hands, his wife's father died, so many of his friends and other innocent people died, and Lupin is not one to sit on the side lines. He joined the Order and agreed to fight, so wiggling out of it is not something I could see him doing.

SiriusLoveGirl July 24th, 2007 6:05 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 

1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What do we know about his relationships to Sirius Black/Fenrir Greyback/Alastor Moody/James Potter/Lily Evans/Peter Pettigrew/Severus Snape/Harry Potter?

His major weakness is wanting to be liked. He wants his son to like him, but believes he won't because his son will blame Remus if he is a werewolf.

Relationships:
Sirius Black - Despite what fangirls (including me) say, we have no evidence that they were...'together'. They were the best friends each other had left, and stuck together and looked out for each other. Remus noticed right when Sirius fell through the veil. They can understand each other, almost to the point where they don't have to say much to convey what they are thinking.
Fenrir Greyback - Dislikes him. Of course.
Alastor Moody - Respects him, likes him. On good terms with one another.
James Potter - Close friends. Probably looked up to James (as he was the 'leader of the pack', so to speak) and respected him. Loved him for accepting that he was a werewolf (this applies to Sirius and Lily as well). Grateful to him for being his friend.
Lily Evans - He was probably friends with her even when she wasn't friends with James. Their personalities would have gotten on well together.
Peter Pettigrew - I'd imagine he feels betrayed and hates him for killing James and Lily and sending Sirius to Azkaban. Peter effectively ruined his life.
Severus Snape - I believed him when he said he neither liked nor disliked Severus. I couldn't sense too much animosity between them.
Harry Potter - Loves him as a...hmm. Nephew? Son? Something like that. Of course he loves him and respects him.


2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?

He made the right choice on both accounts. Remus needs to see that Dora loves him and Teddy will too. Dora can see through the 'furry problem', even if he can't. She made the choice to marry him, too. Despite all the hatred he probably gets for being what he is, he needs to see that not everyone is going to hate him. It's kind of like what Dumbledore said to Hagrid: If he's waiting for universal popularity, he's going to be waiting a very long time indeed.


3. Why didn’t Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?
He may have felt a little guilty, and worried that Harry wouldn't like him.


4. What was Lupin’s role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?
He might have used his connections, but I think he might have just been a fighter.


5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?
He'd never be able to forgive himself if he hadn't fought while his friends were dying. He did what he had to do.

ignisia July 24th, 2007 6:11 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Throughout DH, I think Remus had to face a lot of problems that had remained unsolved in the first 6 books. His feeling of isolation and desire to be a Marauder again would explain his willingness to leave pregnant Tonks and go off adventuring. Rather like grasping at his lost past because he was too frightened to face his future. Harry set him straight. :)

Blast_ended July 24th, 2007 8:22 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Lupin is one of the most complicated characters of the series - nearly like Snape. While overall he's a nice guy, he does seem to think too lowly about himself - remember how he refused to marry tonks in HBP becuase "Tonks deserves more than me"? How he can't stop feeling guilt because he thinks people are now afraid of tonks? he has a really week personality. A stronger person could have said "*** you all, that's me and if you don't accept it it's your problem, no one forces you to hang out with me", but he never said that, he accept the sad truth instead of trying to fight it. And also (JK said that) - once he has friends, he's too grateful for that and he'll always put himself in the last place, just to prove his friends he's worthy.

That's my very short character analysis of him...

katyscarlett July 24th, 2007 8:58 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What do we know about his relationships to Sirius Black/Fenrir Greyback/Alastor Moody/James Potter/Lily Evans/Peter Pettigrew/Severus Snape/Harry Potter?

He's been my favourite character since he was introduced in POA, his sense of humour and compassion for others (especially Neville in POA and Molly in OOTP) and the fact that he has had to face such discrimination from such a young age, definitely endeared him to me. As much as I love him, I don't think that he did mature much over the books he's still as worried about acceptance and being liked in DH as he was in POA. However he did seem to loose some of his humour in HBP and did not appear to regain it until after his confrontation with Harry at Grimmauld. The Remus we hear on Potterwatch is more like that of POA and OOTP than HBP, I like to attribute that to his finally understanding that as long as he loves Tonks and she loves him they can be happy no matter what anyone else thinks.


2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?

Absolutely, I think that his need for being liked blinded him to the fact that as long as they loved him, it didn't matter if everyone else disliked him. I do think getting married was the right decision, I think they both needed to feel the permanence of their relationship after their separation in HBP. I do think though that they got pregnant way too soon and that if the pregnancy was later in their marriage he may not have had so much of a freak out (though I'm sure he probably would have had a little one). However that would have meant that they would never have had a child at all :upset:


3. Why didn’t Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?
A combination of factors, I think before Harry started at Hogwarts there was something stopping magical people getting in touch with him. Once he was at Hogwarts, I dunno maybe he thought it would freak Harry out, a strange guy writing to him "hey I knew your parents lets be penpals". I think that getting to know Harry may have been a big reason for him taking the job at Hogwarts. I also think that Remus's life pre-POA must have been quite hard, all of your friends wiped out like that, it can't have been easy and maybe he just thought it would be too painful.

4. What was Lupin’s role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?
It would make sense, and give a good reason for the Potters and Sirius not to trust him to be secret keeper or to know of the switch.

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?
If anything I think he would have been more into the battle for Teddy's sake, fighting for a better world for Teddy to grow up in. As to whether that was the right decision, I'm not sure. His and Tonks' deaths leave Teddy an orphan but I think that it would have tortured Remus had he not fought and Voldemort won (I'm sure he would have thought that he'd let down Harry, Dumbledore, Lily and James, and Sirius) In a Voldemort run world both he and Tonks would have been targets anyway and Teddy himself may have been a target. And I don't think that either he or Tonks are the type to wait for the fight to come to them.

amandam_xym July 24th, 2007 9:19 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
I think that Lupin is so insecure about himself as a result of having to cover up, for so many years, the fact that he is a werewolf. I do think though, that there was no question of him ever staying behind whilst others fought - after all, he is a Griffindor! He is courageous and could not have lived with himself had he not fought against Voldemort.

Schlubalybub July 24th, 2007 9:59 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
When I first read about Lupin wanting to leave Tonks, I wasn't very impressed with him. But when I read about his reasons for wanting to leave, I began to understand, and I realised that he was a very insecure man, and he didn't want to push his problem onto any child of his...

Moriath July 24th, 2007 10:08 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Schlubalybub (Post 4641478)
When I first read about Lupin wanting to leave Tonks, I wasn't very impressed with him. But when I read about his reasons for wanting to leave, I began to understand, and I realised that he was a very insecure man, and he didn't want to push his problem onto any child of his...

Personally, I could not understand this. He knew what he was getting into by consenting to marriage. He is a lot older than his wife, who we saw nothing but support him. While Tonks would have needed him during her pregnancy he wallowed in self-pity and self-loathing. Moreover, he knew how much Harry suffered from not having a proper family. I lost a lot of respect for Remus in DH.

Credo Buffa July 24th, 2007 10:20 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses?

I'll start from the last question and work to the first. Remus's clear weakness is insecurity and a lack of self-esteem that has obviously developed from a lifetime of being an outsider who has been shunned for something which he cannot control. But luckily for him, his great strength is believing in the good of people and wanting to be a good person himself. He's lived his whole life trying to be that good person, only to find that it gets him almost nowhere. Meanwhile, all the people he has ever loved have suffered, and that's a very sad place to be.

Over the course of the series, I think we've seen him slowly try to reconcile those two sides: the person he feels he is deep down and the person the rest of the world believes him to be. Early on, he accepts his lot, refuses to complain, and basically lets himself live quietly in his suffering. By HBP, he's starting to allow his emotions to come to the surface. We see flickers of frustration and overt grief that we've never seen before. We see him actively pushing away from close relationships because he feels he can be no good for anyone, like he doesn't deserve love and that the ones he cares about deserve better. Finally, in DH, all that pent-up emotion comes to a head when he argues with Harry. Harry pretty much throws his demons out at Remus, forces him to see them for what they are and what they are doing to him and the people he loves. That blanket articulation of his need to stop running away and start letting good things into his life was a turning point for him. For the first time, we see him happy, proud of something that he has done--brought Teddy into the world--and willing to show it off.


2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?

He definitely makes the right decision. As explained above, his biggest weakness is a lack of self-esteem and the belief that he can only do harm to those close to him, so his choosing to marry Tonks in the first place and then going back to her is probably the defining step for him toward building a new and healthier sense of self.

3. Why didn’t Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?

Probably the same reason he tried to run away from Tonks: he was afraid of emotional attachment, both on his part (what if Harry thought he was a dark creature like everyone else?) and Harry's (if they did develop a close relationship, would Remus be endangering him?).

4. What was Lupin’s role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?

That's my best guess. It would explain why he wasn't at Godric's Hollow after the Potters' deaths, at least. I would also venture to guess that's how he found out that Greyback was the one who bit him.

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?

I think he explained himself pretty well when Harry apologized to him after he'd died. He said that he was glad knowing that he was working to make a better world for Teddy. I see it as almost a sacrifice that he felt he had to make for his son. Likewise, he probably felt obligated to be there, fighting with and for the people he cared about most. There are some good points by others here as well that he surely felt that he owed it to the memories of his friends to do everything he could to fight Voldemort.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Madron (Post 4641590)
Personally, I could not understand this. He knew what he was getting into by consenting to marriage. He is a lot older than his wife, who we saw nothing but support him. While Tonks would have needed him during her pregnancy he wallowed in self-pity and self-loathing. Moreover, he knew how much Harry suffered from not having a proper family. I lost a lot of respect for Remus in DH.

I was really upset by this at first as well, but the more I think about it, the more I think it makes sense. As I explain above, there seems to be a subtle progression in Remus's character from PoA in which we see him becoming more and more frustrated with his life, yet feeling powerless to do anything about it. I honestly do think that choosing to leave Tonks and his unborn son was the absolute worst decision he could possibly make, but it was a decision he made before he had the emotional ability to deal with everything that was happening in his life. Before, the best way he knew to feel like he wasn't a burden or a harm to anyone was to avoid close relationships, just like he tried to do with Tonks in HBP. But once he'd make the leap to marry her, that kind of avoidance simply wouldn't work anymore. Of course, he probably didn't really understand or accept the implications of what he was doing until Harry called him out on it. I think he realized it right away, which accounts for his sudden outburst of anger; he was probably more angry with himself than Harry, but didn't know how to handle being confronted so blatantly with his own true weakness--not that he was a werewolf, but that he allowed himself, and was about to allow his wife and child, to emotionally suffer because of it. But it is a true testament to his character that he was so dramatically able to turn things around: he realized his mistake, went back to her, and was probably as happy as he'd ever been in his life.

I guess I see Remus in DH as Harry in OoTP. Harry was an angry person in OoTP: he shouted at people who didn't deserve it, shunned his friends who were trying to help him, etc. But being angry was, I think, and important and cathartic thing for him. He needed to get that out of his system before he could accept what lay ahead. I think it's one of the great misconceptions that people who suffer should not be allowed their moments of anger, however uncharacteristic and irrational they might seem. For Remus (and for a lot of people), feeling like he should just accept things clearly wasn't working. He was internalizing his emotional struggles and not allowing himself catharsis. He needed that outburst and that wake-up call. He needed to realize: "Life has been cruel to me. I don't deserve to feel like I have to always run away from the people I love, and they don't deserve that either. It's awful, I hate it, and I should be able to feel angry and upset and scream and cry if I want to, because it's not fair." And if he had to make a huge mistake to get there, then so be it. Once he'd finally had that moment, though, he could move on.

sweets7 July 24th, 2007 10:34 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Madron (Post 4641590)
Personally, I could not understand this. He knew what he was getting into by consenting to marriage. He is a lot older than his wife, who we saw nothing but support him. While Tonks would have needed him during her pregnancy he wallowed in self-pity and self-loathing. Moreover, he knew how much Harry suffered from not having a proper family. I lost a lot of respect for Remus in DH.

I don't think Lupin ever really left tonks. Left for a few days; saw Harry; Harry knocked some sense into him and he went back.

Now that we have DH, we can see clearly that this is what Lupin does. In POA, he leaves his teaching job. It also puts everything that happened in HBP in perspective.

It now seems clear to me that after Tonks was injured in OOTP, she started talking about getting married, with Lupin. Lupin freaked out, and much like he went to Harry in DH and offered his services, he went to Dumbledore and offered his services. Dumbledore not being the kind, sweet figure a lot of people thought he was, saw the opportunity for a spy and overlooked the fact that Lupin was obviously running away. It also fits in with the fact that Tonks would not look at Dumbledore at the beginning of HBP, she was probably furious with him.

The pregnancy was obviously a mistake and given the time line, I figure she was probably pregnant when they got married, but they were both unaware of the fact.

Credo Buffa July 24th, 2007 11:01 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4641888)
The pregnancy was obviously a mistake and given the time line, I figure she was probably pregnant when they got married, but they were both unaware of the fact.

My best guess as to the timeline of the Remus/Tonks relationship:

For the timeline to work, they probably had to have been together at least by the end of OoTP. I think Tonks's behavior in HBP, then, would not be a reaction to Lupin not wanting a relationship with her, but not wanting to get married after a relationship they'd already had, possibly deciding that they should break up so that it doesn't happen. Looking back on the scene in the hospital wing at the end of HBP, we see that Tonks says of Fleur and Bill, "She still wants to marry him, even though he's been bitten! She doesn't care!" (p. 582, UK edition). I'd always thought the word "marry" was a bit jarring there, rather than something a bit more innocuous like "be with" or the like. Now that we know they got married not long after that, it seems unlikely that they wouldn't have had some kind of serious relationship prior to HBP which might have resulted in the discussion of marriage. That being said, if they got married in late June or early July (which they most likely had to given the fact that this information is known at a meeting discussing Harry's departure from Privet Drive in late July), it's entirely possible for her to have become pregnant very soon after their marriage and still have it fit the timeline if Teddy was born sometime around April (and we know that it's at least March when Harry, Ron, and Hermione are captured, and they did spend several weeks with Bill and Fleur, so it's likely that Teddy has an April birthday).

Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4641888)
I don't think Lupin ever really left tonks. Left for a few days; saw Harry; Harry knocked some sense into him and he went back.

I do think he probably lived away from her for some time. Ron does say after he returns to Harry and Hermione that Tonks and Lupin are living together again (or whatever the direct quotation is), but I have no reason to believe that it wasn't something that they'd devised together as a smart course of action anyway. Although it is also possible that they might have argued over Lupin's decision to leave (if she ever found out about it, because I think its clear that he made that choice independent of her) or over something related and needed to spend a little time apart. It happens. :shrug:

sweets7 July 24th, 2007 11:12 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Yeah I figure they had a serious relationship in OOTP, serious enough for marriage to be on the cards. I figured Teddy was born in March, April fits too though.

In OOTP, Harry said that Lupin was absent a lot (on business for the order). In retrospect, he was probably with Tonks a fair bit as well.

I do think that he went back to Tonks fairly quickly. All Ron said is that Bill told him that Lupin was back living with Tonks. He probably went AWOL for a few weeks and then went back. Tonks knew what he was like, she had to expect that he would freak out.

Edit: Just did the maths, Teddy had to be born in late March or early April, at the latest, because at Harry's birthday they obviously know shes pregnant, and given that she was probably pregnant about a month before they found out, that puts the timeline around late June.

urquhartfay July 24th, 2007 11:15 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
sweets7 and katyscarlett - just for your info, my midwife-friend tells me it is awfully easy to get pregnant, even when taking all the usual precautions. knowing remus, i suspect that he and tonks were consciously trying not to get pregnant, partly because of remus' reservations, and partly because during a war is not the most convenient time to have children. i think it was very much unintentional.

credo - (greetings from scotland!) i like your analysis of his character development, almost as if he is only going through a part of adolescence now. it makes me wonder even more what his (emotional) life was like between james' death and poa - was there any chance of emotional maturing then?

i think something must have happened just before this scene to make him panic particularly badly. he seems to have known she was pregnant from harry's birthday (when he looks "rather unhappy" p. 101 UK). his visit to gp12 is about 4 days later. perhaps he was too busy getting his wife to safety from voldemort, and then once she was safe with her parents he freaked...

which reminds me, her father was on the run and eventually killed, was she not in a lot of danger during that time?

anyway, i can only imagine that it was a moment of panic when remus ran off to join harry and co. i can picture andromeda and tonks starting to go on about baby-names and cots and strollers and suddenly it all hit remus like a ton of bricks - this is real! (my husband certainly used to get slightly panicky when children came up, and he's not contagious...) and then he freaked out, told tonks he was going to go check on harry, and convinced himself that harry's was the greater need and that he was being self-sacrificing and loving.

i disagree with harry's accusation that he wanted to be "a daredevil...stepping into sirius' shoes." (p. 176 UK) i don't think that is ever the adult remus' character - i think harry is being angry and irrational. after all, just after calling him a "daredevil" he calls him a "coward." (this is not a discrepancy on jk's part - we humans commonly get self-contradictory when angry).

i was really shocked by this scene, i never expected remus' insecurity to stretch to such behaviour, i thought he was more rational than that. but, well, there was a lot going on in his life.

the death: i was disappointed that this wasn't described. it was very by the by. i can definitely imagine that he was defending tonks, but that sort of thing would have fit gloriously into the books' themes, so why not include it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4642172)
I do think he probably lived away from her for some time. Ron does say after he returns to Harry and Hermione that Tonks and Lupin are living together again (or whatever the direct quotation is), but I have no reason to believe that it wasn't something that they'd devised together as a smart course of action anyway. Although it is also possible that they might have argued over Lupin's decision to leave (if she ever found out about it, because I think its clear that he made that choice independent of her) or over something related and needed to spend a little time apart. It happens. :shrug:

i think the seperation must have been after the argument with harry, because he saw harry only 4 days after bill and fleur's wedding, and i'm sure he made sure tonks was safe after the death eater attack - he's not that careless.

p.s. i wonder if part of the reason he freaked out at this time was beacause of the time of month...? (we all understand...)

Credo Buffa July 24th, 2007 11:54 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Good to see you, urqu! I figured some of the old crew might come around for a little discussion and collective mourning. :sad:

Quote:

Originally Posted by urquhartfay (Post 4642329)
it makes me wonder even more what his (emotional) life was like between james' death and poa - was there any chance of emotional maturing then?

My thoughts exactly. It seems unlikely that he fostered any close relationships during that time. Apart from the emotional strain of losing his best friends, I imagine he was more concerned with just trying to live than anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urquhartfay
which reminds me, her father was on the run and eventually killed, was she not in a lot of danger during that time?

I got the impression that the Ministry was going after Muggle-borns first, and would only later go for half-blooded wizards. Even though Tonks's mother was a blood traitor, she was still descended from a respected pureblood line, which I imagine provided Tonks with at least temporary protection. I would imagine that the greater danger to her would be her pregnancy; if there's one thing that the Ministry might find more "undesirable" than being Muggle-born it would probably be knowing that a werewolf was actively breeding.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urquhartfay
i disagree with harry's accusation that he wanted to be "a daredevil...stepping into sirius' shoes." (p. 176 UK) i don't think that is ever the adult remus' character - i think harry is being angry and irrational. after all, just after calling him a "daredevil" he calls him a "coward." (this is not a discrepancy on jk's part - we humans commonly get self-contradictory when angry).

I agree. I definitely don't see anything in Remus's character to suggest that he was in any way trying to emulate Sirius. But I think that Harry calling him a "coward" was a harsh but more accurate accusation. He has, as I've explained above, always had a tendency to choose to walk away from situations rather than suffer the potential emotional consequences, but in the past that has always led us to seeing him as quietly managing his difficult life and insecurity rather than choosing to lash out and become angry. Of course, in a situation like this, his normal "solution" made him look like a bum. But it probably all goes back to that issue of emotional growth. Remus needed to be in a particularly close relationship for that wake-up call to happen, and if he hadn't had one since his Marauder days, then he would have built up this pattern that could only be broken by realizing that there are some predicaments from which you can't quietly walk away, and some things for which you have to consider that the benefits might outweigh the consequnces.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urquharfay
the death: i was disappointed that this wasn't described. it was very by the by. i can definitely imagine that he was defending tonks, but that sort of thing would have fit gloriously into the books' themes, so why not include it?

Someone somewhere on the forum here made an interesting point that by sheilding us from the exact circumstances of his death, his "hero" quality is preserved, because we never actually see him fail. I for one think that it is meant to shock us, seeing both Lupin and Tonks dead beside each other. I see their deaths as being particularly indicative of the senseless tragedy of war, especially knowing that they are leaving behind an baby who will never know his parents, and there's nothing more tragic than simply finding them dead, never knowing what really happened to them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by urquhartfay (Post 4642329)
i think the seperation must have been after the argument with harry, because he saw harry only 4 days after bill and fleur's wedding, and i'm sure he made sure tonks was safe after the death eater attack - he's not that careless.

Oh, I completely agree. I think that the arrangement that Lupin is describing to Harry in which Tonks would stay with her parents is probably already in effect during that scene, but for her own protection, not because Remus was necessarily planning on leaving her. If anything, that arrangement probably only helped Remus convince himself that his choice was a good one.

gillikitty2000 July 25th, 2007 12:03 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What do we know about his relationships to Sirius Black/Fenrir Greyback/Alastor Moody/James Potter/Lily Evans/Peter Pettigrew/Severus Snape/Harry Potter?
I just think that Lupin is an amazing character from the beginning. I was a little surprised that he was willing to run out on "Dora" and little Teddy but other then that i was very impressed on how he handled his condition.

2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?
I think he made the right decision in both. He loved her so he should marry her and i love how he was trying to pretect them by furthering himself but isn't it better that he was there to care for them?

3. Why didnít Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?
Most likely because 1.) Harry would have no idea who he was and 2.) Harry might not have trusted him as much because he disn't know he was nice.

4. What was Lupinís role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?
I think he might have been connected with the werewolfs again but it doesnt really tell us does it so all we can do is guess that that is what he was doing for Dumbledore.

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?
I don't think he could have lived with himself if he had stayed out and Tonks was in it too wasn't she? This was his responsibility for the Order and i think that Teddy is very proud of his father who died to protect him.

sweets7 July 25th, 2007 12:09 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4642744)
My thoughts exactly. It seems unlikely that he fostered any close relationships during that time. Apart from the emotional strain of losing his best friends, I imagine he was more concerned with just trying to live than anything else.

I agree I think since he lost his friends he never had any close relationships. The relationship with Tonks was probably difficult for him and very intense from his point of view. He was used to not caring for anyone (since the marauders died) so to suddenly be in love and have that person be in terrible danger probably blow his mind a bit.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4642744)
Someone somewhere on the forum here made an interesting point that by sheilding us from the exact circumstances of his death, his "hero" quality is preserved, because we never actually see him fail. I for one think that it is meant to shock us, seeing both Lupin and Tonks dead beside each other. I see their deaths as being particularly indicative of the senseless tragedy of war, especially knowing that they are leaving behind an baby who will never know his parents, and there's nothing more tragic than simply finding them dead, never knowing what really happened to them.

I agree, it shows the senselessness of war. It happens; people just appear in a line, dead; terribly heart breaking. I swear I cried so much in this book, but I think it was very well done. All of the deaths I think were written perfectly.

The books began with Harry, an orphan of war and then we are introduced to Neville a virtual orphan of war as well. At the end we have another orphan, but one that is obviously very: loved, secure, cool, and confident of himself and also the trio and Ginny’s children. All happy, beautiful people completely free from the tragedies, their parents generations had to face.

katyscarlett July 25th, 2007 12:27 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by urquhartfay (Post 4642329)
sweets7 and katyscarlett - just for your info, my midwife-friend tells me it is awfully easy to get pregnant, even when taking all the usual precautions. knowing remus, i suspect that he and tonks were consciously trying not to get pregnant, partly because of remus' reservations, and partly because during a war is not the most convenient time to have children. i think it was very much unintentional.

Oh I didn't mean that I thought that the pregnancy was intentional, very much the opposite. In fact I have this whole little scenario worked out in my head that Teddy was conceived after the night of the seven potters, relief that they both made it through making them a little less careful than usual. Tonks is described as looking radiant at Harry's birthday party which immediately made me think she was pregnant. This would just about fit in the timeline I think.

What I was trying to say in my post was that if they'd had more time together as a married couple before the pregnancy and he'd had time to relax into the role of husband then maybe he wouldn't have freaked so much over the idea of becoming a father. Because in a matter of weeks he'd gone from being in the werewolf pack and alone, to Tonks confronting him in front of everyone, then being in a relationship (again) to getting married and then expecting a baby! I think it would make even the most level-headed person spin a little.

sweets7 July 25th, 2007 12:39 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by katyscarlett (Post 4643078)
Oh I didn't mean that I thought that the pregnancy was intentional, very much the opposite. In fact I have this whole little scenario worked out in my head that Teddy was conceived after the night of the seven potters, relief that they both made it through making them a little less careful than usual. Tonks is described as looking radiant at Harry's birthday party which immediately made me think she was pregnant. This would just about fit in the timeline I think.

Couldn't have been, she must have been pregnant by then, for the maths to work, but she probably didn't know it. Harry's birthday is five days later and Remus is looking miserable, so they must just have found out.

R0YvsMARTH July 25th, 2007 12:58 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What do we know about his relationships to Sirius Black/Fenrir Greyback/Alastor Moody/James Potter/Lily Evans/Peter Pettigrew/Severus Snape/Harry Potter?

Lupin was such a brilliant character who was placed the perfect distance from Harry throughout the story since he appeared in PoA. He was close, far, clsoe far, etc. Lupin could have been a very nice father figure for Harry after all others had died out...But Harry grew apart from the needy feelings of being without a family. And he saw that though Lupin was admirable and strong, he was also running out on important things. When Harry told him off in DH I hope/think he received great applause. Lupin was trying to be strong and offer his help but Harry saw straight through this and Lupin was reduced to running out!

2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?

Lupin's ultimate weaknesses show greatly through his great shame in what he is. He desires his son and wife to push him away... He is greater than the werewolf he was forced to become. I am glad he returned to Dora and Teddy but I think it was done with a lot of regret on his part... He is too fearful. Not enough love in him! His decision in marrying her was right, and shows he can seperate his inner self from his werewolf self. Ashamed though he is of being a werewolf, he was proud enough of his love for Dora to marry her. That is awesome.

3. Why didn’t Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?

The thought that Lupin even existed until PoA didn't occur to me until now, and now I feel rather stupid. Ha! Lupin didn't contact Harry because who knows if Harry would have had any reason to believe a single thing Lupin told him...! Or maybe Lupin was doing something that made him irrelevant and way far apart from the plot! Who knows! Tough question!

4. What was Lupin’s role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?

Lupin was probably a spy, like all of the Order. Doing things here and there for information etc etc. I am stumped! I don't think the werewolves were used already because then Fenrir Greyback would have already (most likely) been a huge threat to the good side. No doubt Voldemort would have already used him. Oooh tricky tricky.

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?

Lupin's weakness comes out here (again!) He wants to fight to ultimately save his family, but he could have easily saved them by not fighting. For Teddy's sake he should have stayed out of the fight... but Lupin had already expressed that he wished his Wife+Son to let him go...Fighting at Hogwarts was his way of feeling like he wasn't a burden to them. I think Lupin was fighting an internal battle and was losing. Stay with family? Stay ashamed of what I am? etc etc etc. He was constantly back and forth! His death makes me feel like he could be at peace with himself finally...no more decisions left to make. And Tonks died with him and for him...more peaceful yet! But poor Teddy....

Oh I hope I haven't missed spelling errors!

katyscarlett July 25th, 2007 12:58 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4643216)
Couldn't have been, she must have been pregnant by then, for the maths to work, but she probably didn't know it. Harry's birthday is five days later and Remus is looking miserable, so they must just have found out.

Depends on when you think Teddy was born, general consensus I've found is April which would put conception in July, so she must have been less than a month pregnant at that point (plus they had only just got married, what the week before or something, I'm not sure Jo would write in a pre-nuptial pregnancy). And also I guess depends how quickly she would know that she was pregnant. I agree that they had just found out at Harry's birthday because of Remus's expression but I sort of think that as a Metamorphamagus she would be more aware of changes in her body than another woman would. But that's just my theory.

sweets7 July 25th, 2007 1:05 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by katyscarlett (Post 4643419)
I agree that they had just found out at Harry's birthday because of Remus's expression but I sort of think that as a Metamorphamagus she would be more aware of changes in her body than another woman would. But that's just my theory.

After five days? I don't think that she could have been that quick. It matters not though. JKR was never going to write a pre - wedding pregnancy into her books, so the safe assumption is that she is supposed to have got pregnant just after they got married.

lupislune July 25th, 2007 1:53 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
I was hoping that in DH we would find out why Sirius didn't want him from secret keeper for the Potters. I too, thought that he would have contacted Harry before POA which leads me to believe that there was somthing that made him either uncomfortable about doing it or forbade him from doing it.

I thought he sounded a bit desperate in the last book, like something had gone awry. I thought the scene at #12 was concerning. At first, I thought he was imperiused, but I was incorrect.

Credo Buffa July 25th, 2007 7:24 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Interesting development in the Lupin death, from JKR's Today show interview:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKR/Meredith Vieira interview
RE: HOW FAR BOOK SEVEN WAS FROM HER ORIGINAL VISION:
ROWLING: It's really close, particularly the last third of the book is as I always wanted it. It really is. The only exception would be the one character appears in that last third. And I thought that character was gonna die in Book Five when I started writing.
VIEIRA: Who was that?
ROWLING: Mr. Weasley. He was the person who got a reprieve. I-- when I sketched out the books, Mr. Weasley was due to die in Book Five.
VIEIRA: So what happened there? Why did he get the reprieve?
ROWLING: Well, I swapped him for someone else, and I don't want to say who for the people who haven't-- read. But I-- I made a decision as I went into writing Phoenix that I was gonna reprieve Mr. Weasley and I was gonna kill someone else. And if you finish the book, I expect you probably know and someone else who is a father.

It's pretty obvious that "someone else" is Remus. Tells us quite a lot about what she was intending to do with his death; the fact that he was a father was essential to her meaning. It makes sense that she might have swapped Mr. Weasley for him in order to add that little extra impact to the scene of Harry walking into the forest, but most important is the fact that he left a child behind. Clearly, JKR meant to have him die "trying to make a better world" for the next generation.

Buffybot July 25th, 2007 12:16 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Lupin was my favourite character (after Snape) after I read PoA especially after I saw the film. I always felt sorry for him but not in a bad way. So I am disappointed with how he was portrayed in DH and even in HBP. He comes across as having suspect motives and for a while I thought he was under the Imperius curse, he was not the Lupin we know and love. He is miserable when Tonks is happy and you can't help think, get over it, make the most of the time you have together. Harry's fight with Lupin shocked me, it felt a little staged and they never really talk properly again. Lupin is brave and good but he is not the boy we see in the pensieve in OoTP anymore :(

MadForMoony July 25th, 2007 7:43 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What do we know about his relationships to Sirius Black/Fenrir Greyback/Alastor Moody/James Potter/Lily Evans/Peter Pettigrew/Severus Snape/Harry Potter?

I think Lupin is really one of the great, complex characters of all fantasy literature. I believe his strenghts and weaknesses are all naturally connected to his being a werewolf. His strengths are that he can always see the good in other people even though he can't necessarily see it in himself. Also, he happens to be a very powerful wizard. But I'll save the rest of that for an uncoming question in a few moments. I think Lupin, although best friends with both Sirius and James was always a bit of the outsider. In nearly all group of friends, people normally connect to one better than the other. I don't think it's intentional at all, and it's obvious that any of the three of them would put their lives on the line for one another. I imagine Lupin sort of sequestered himself off. Pettigrew I'm sure he feels very betrayed by. I bet he wondered why they chose Peter over himself when they switched from Sirius. I imagine there were quite some harsh feelings about that. As far as Lily goes, I can see him being on friendly terms with her before James and her got together. He was a Prefect and judging from how good a student she herself was, I assume they had that in common. I could definitely see Lily viewing Lupin as the matrue one out of the group.

2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?

If he was happy in his marriage and fatherhood, which he eventually proved to be, I'd say yes, even though it seemed rush. However, in times of war, people marry in droves and have children in droves. So I suppose that wasn't at all too surprising. I for one do not think he left Dora for a long period of time. We would have heard about a mousy haired Tonks at some point. Besides, in war, especially in one which both partners are engaged in, they can't ALWAYS be together. While it bothered me that Lupin entertained the idea of leaving his wife and child, I could see why. I doubt that he had much experience at all with women and then he so quickly finds himself married and a to be father, which I'm sure made his mind implode for a little while. The fact that people truly truly were going to depend on him and need him probably frightened him. Being a werewolf, no one really needs you or depends on you.

3. Why didn’t Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?

I don't recall Lupin ever sending a letter to anyone, aside from Moody in GOF at the beginning of the Term. It makes me wonder if he even afforded an owl. I see to remember owls being quite expensive. I think that he probabaly didn't want to add to Harry's stress by emerging as the guy who was just like "Hi, your dad and I were good friends in school..." He didn't want to add to anything that Harry had to deal with already.

4. What was Lupin’s role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?

Lupin, as I mentioned in the 1st answer, was a very powerful wizard. Lupin can do magic without a wand or any instrument (the train to Hogwarts in PoA, he makes a ball of fire in his hands), and the only other person I can think of off hand to be able to do that is Dumbledore. So on top of being a very impressive wizard, he played a double agent to the werewolves.

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?

Whether it was right or wrong, it was something that was perfectly in character to do. All his friends died for the same cause. Lupin was a brave person and wouldn't sit idly by like many have said. The fact that he knew Dora was out of harms way with his son probably made him feel better about it. I doubt he was happy when he saw her battling.

wickedwickedboy July 25th, 2007 8:26 pm

Remus John Lupin - Character
 
I think that Remus fell out of character on page 214 when he went to the house to try to join the quest with the golden trio.

He was totally not the responsible man we'd seen up to that point! Of course on page 414 he was back in character once more, responsible again and thanking Harry for the kick in the pants (on the radio show - and he did it subtly but I think we all understood what he meant by 'nearly always right, lol).

It seems to me that JKR did this merely to make an interesting little side plot - even though it meant drawing Remus quite a bit out of character. It did make the book more angsty for me...I suffered miserably for 200 pages waiting to hear from Remus again. (and cheering every time Harry felt miserable!)

Oh and I was delighted when he sent that curse at Harry - I wanted to send one myself! But contrast this to when Harry called Snape a coward. The small knocking curse Lupin made was nothing in comparison to the whips Snape pulled out and used. I think it was written this way to show us that despite his anger, he loved Harry and cared about him a lot, which we all knew, and it was as if he were striking a friend for saying something that tore him apart (I could totally see the Marauders using this on one another in anger, lol).

Rem was my favorite character in the whole HP series - liked him even better than Harry and my only regret is that we didn't see a whole lot more of him. But I was glad he ended up happy in the afterworld. Those of you who post here alot already know this because I must have made a 1000 posts begging JKR to do this before DH came out, lol. Sorry, but I just am so happy she did it. Thanks JKR if u see this!

Credo Buffa July 25th, 2007 9:42 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin - Character
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4650348)
But contrast this to when Harry called Snape a coward. The small knocking curse Lupin made was nothing in comparison to the whips Snape pulled out and used. I think it was written this way to show us that despite his anger, he loved Harry and cared about him a lot, which we all knew, and it was as if he were striking a friend for saying something that tore him apart (I could totally see the Marauders using this on one another in anger, lol).

The parallel with Snape there was probably the most shocking thing about that scene for me, that Harry would choose the word "coward" to describe him when it was the same word that most set off Snape. Apart from the literal response of curses in both cases, though, I think the big difference is that Remus obviously took something away from that experience and learned from it.

The more I think about that scene, the more interesting it is. First, we have Harry calling Lupin by his first name. Up to that point, their relationship was still quite obviously dictated by the line between student and teacher, but here we have Harry making a definite decision that they are now on some kind of equal footing. Then, Harry makes another leap by initiating an argument, something which definitely indicates that he feels like he has that right and responsibility to call him out if he feels he's doing something wrong. Likewise, Remus makes that same leap by cursing Harry, which we know he never would have even considered had he not felt that Harry was somehow his peer rather than his pupil or charge. Finally, although I think we can all agree that there are bits of what Harry says that are pretty out of order (like urqu says above, his accusation that Remus is trying to be more like Sirius really doesn't fit the situation at all), he definitely gives him the wake-up call he needs; Remus's moment on the wireless broadcast shows us that. It's almost like we've seen a reversal of roles where the student becomes the teacher. But above all, this whole shocking incident which has frustrated so many of us in some way has actually asserted what so many of us have been hoping for ever since the end of PoA: that one day, Harry and Remus might break down that barrier and see each other simply as friends.

Of course, my first instinct with this scene was to agree with you, wickedwickedboy, that JKR just side-stepped character boundaries to create something plotwise, and maybe a lot of my rationalization of it is merely my wanting to make sense of something that before we never would have expected to see from Remus. However, I definitely think that, at least on some level, she wanted to show us a progression in their relationship, if for no other reason than the fact that Harry does address him as "Remus" rather than "Lupin". It's also notable to that the same thing happens at the end, when we see "Remus and Tonks" dead, rather than "Lupin and Tonks".

sweets7 July 25th, 2007 10:21 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin - Character
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4650786)
Of course, my first instinct with this scene was to agree with you, wickedwickedboy, that JKR just side-stepped character boundaries to create something plotwise, and maybe a lot of my rationalization of it is merely my wanting to make sense of something that before we never would have expected to see from Remus. However, I definitely think that, at least on some level, she wanted to show us a progression in their relationship, if for no other reason than the fact that Harry does address him as "Remus" rather than "Lupin". It's also notable to that the same thing happens at the end, when we see "Remus and Tonks" dead, rather than "Lupin and Tonks".

DH was the first book where Harry, and by extension us, saw the characters as they really were. He, and therefore, we, were looking at them through adult eyes, for the first time. Remus having a minor nervous breakdown was, obviously for us, an unprecedented response, but that is part of his character (Harry just didn't know it). Sirius says in OOTP that he has been known to rant about matters.

Harry was Remus student, not his equal. For the first time in DH, we saw the real man: temperamental, cynical, protective of Tonks , plagued by insecurity and self - loathing and ultimately a man in the end, who revelled in having a normal family life, with a wife and son. It is just such a shame that Teddy would never know his parents, and that they would never know him. At least they had a few months to enjoy with him.

wickedwickedboy July 25th, 2007 10:28 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin - Character
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4650786)
The parallel with Snape there was probably the most shocking thing about that scene for me, that Harry would choose the word "coward" to describe him when it was the same word that most set off Snape. Apart from the literal response of curses in both cases, though, I think the big difference is that Remus obviously took something away from that experience and learned from it.

The more I think about that scene, the more interesting it is. First, we have Harry calling Lupin by his first name. Up to that point, their relationship was still quite obviously dictated by the line between student and teacher, but here we have Harry making a definite decision that they are now on some kind of equal footing. Then, Harry makes another leap by initiating an argument, something which definitely indicates that he feels like he has that right and responsibility to call him out if he feels he's doing something wrong. Likewise, Remus makes that same leap by cursing Harry, which we know he never would have even considered had he not felt that Harry was somehow his peer rather than his pupil or charge. Finally, although I think we can all agree that there are bits of what Harry says that are pretty out of order (like urqu says above, his accusation that Remus is trying to be more like Sirius really doesn't fit the situation at all), he definitely gives him the wake-up call he needs; Remus's moment on the wireless broadcast shows us that. It's almost like we've seen a reversal of roles where the student becomes the teacher. But above all, this whole shocking incident which has frustrated so many of us in some way has actually asserted what so many of us have been hoping for ever since the end of PoA: that one day, Harry and Remus might break down that barrier and see each other simply as friends.

Of course, my first instinct with this scene was to agree with you, wickedwickedboy, that JKR just side-stepped character boundaries to create something plotwise, and maybe a lot of my rationalization of it is merely my wanting to make sense of something that before we never would have expected to see from Remus. However, I definitely think that, at least on some level, she wanted to show us a progression in their relationship, if for no other reason than the fact that Harry does address him as "Remus" rather than "Lupin". It's also notable to that the same thing happens at the end, when we see "Remus and Tonks" dead, rather than "Lupin and Tonks".


Wow. Thanks for writing that. I totally appreciate you laying out more clearly for my mind. I absolutely got all of that from the reading, but I really couldn't pinpoint why. But you are right. The first name thing was probably what unconciously made me feel like Harry had accepted Remus into his circle of life (a term getting popular around here to mean those that you care about more than the general mob). I think you are 100% correct. I did come away feeling that Harry spoke from the heart that day, not just because he wanted Remus to be there for his wife and kid as James had been, but also because of the respect and care he had for Remus and (even if unconciously) did not want to see someone in his circle of life make what he thought would be a drastic error. I did make the connection, but much later...at the reunion scene he also calls him Remus. (it would have saved me 200 pages of reading in misery and anger at JKR if I had made the connection sooner as you did!! )

But I still think she made the scene to add interest to the sideplot. She could have shown us all of the above without pulling Remus out of character. Because she made it all better in the end, I don't mind so much and it wasn't totally unplausible or anything.

Harry was certainly out of order (deserved the little jinx for that) but I agree, Remus needed the kick in the pants for forgetting who he was for a spell, lol. And yes, I also saw Remus' reaction as that of one friend to another as I mentioned above. And more than a casual friend (who he would not have cursed) and not a person he had no regard for (who he would have likely sent some thing much worse at, lol). It was a reaction reserved for beloved circle of life friends and I think even Harry understood that. Too, we must give Harry a little credit, he admitted to having gone overboard and that he should not have called Remus a coward, even if he was acting cowardly for the moment. That showed Harry understood Remus was not actually a coward...something we all knew (and Harry too) from many past examples.

BTW, I don't think Remus believed Harry thought him a coward; he is mature and would understand Harry meant that he was acting cowardly. On the other hand Snape did believe Harry thought he was a coward - and reflection wouldn't have changed that belief at that point in their relationship.

In the end, Remus got the end I had prayed for. I so wanted him to join the Marauders. I have been pleading in posts for that for some time. The interview quoted above was interesting. I thought she had the Marauder in heaven reunion planned from the start. But I am so happy she switched Mr. W for Remus in the end. He is happy, with Tonks and his friends and left a legacy (who will be loved)- - I couldn't ask for more.

Mia_Potter July 25th, 2007 10:36 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses?

Lupin was one of those great characters IMO. Completely flawed and inperfect and he knew it. He never saw himself as deserving friends or love because of his furry problem. He was loyal to a fault which was his greatest strength and he did not believe in himself which was his greatest weakness.


2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?


Yes he made the right decision both in marrying her and going back to them. He had been so trained to think that everyone saw werewolves as bad that he did not want to burden them with living with his stigma but he didn't realize or understand that love is blind and if you love someone you stand beside them regardless of any problems they may have.

3. Why didnít Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?

Well before Harry entered Hogwarts I think anyone associated with the Potters agreed it was best for Harry not to know who he was or what had happened thinking it would give him a normal childhood. Once he went to Hogwarts I think Lupin was simply afraid Harry would be one of those people who wanted nothing to do with a werewolf.

4. What was Lupinís role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?

Yea know I am not sure. I don't get the feeling that DD used him the same way back then.

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?

Yes sadly he made the right choice. He had to do what he could to try and make sure Teddy could grow up in a world that was free of the kind of evil that LV promoted.

thefallen544 July 26th, 2007 12:56 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses?

Remus I think is a brilliant character, one of the best and most well thought out characters in the book. I love the fact that he isn't perfect or seen as perfect (ie Dumbledore) he had self doubts, he had problems with his perceptions of himself and yet he was loved and respected by many anyway. His loyalty, bravery, kindness and empathy have always been present and progressed along with the character as he goes from mentor, to friend, to husband, to father.


2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?
Yes on both accounts, I can see why he'd struggle afterwards and think that his condition would distance them from the rest of society. Again I think what Lupin is trying to do is please everyone. He's having trouble accepting that not everyone will like him, or his family for who they are. Thats a sad fact of life and Remus has always sought the acceptance and friendship of others. I think ultimatley he comes to understand that as long as those hes close to love him and his family then that is all that matters.

3. Why didn’t Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?

It was probably deemed wiser to give Harry some space from the "ghosts" of his past in terms of his parents, or parents friends especially at such a young age he was too young to be exposed to the utter barbaric truth about their deaths. How would Lupin relate this? Via Owl? He couldn't walk up to Harry and talk to him in the flesh due to many circumstances and seeing as Remus is quite empethatic and cares about others he would probably be aware that certain things need to be said face to face. With support offered, rather than via Owl etc.

4. What was Lupin’s role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?

I'm not sure, I don't think Dumbledore used him in any special role. Other than a member of the Order operating like all the others.

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?

Yes he made the right decision, he chose to fight to make a better world for his son. One that Teddy could live in happily and as such I think the love he had for his son and his wife would drive him more to fight than to stay out of the conflict. I can imagine that if Tonks and Remus had took a back seat and it turned out that the "good" has lost then they would be living in a horrible world. Constantly wondering if they could have changed the outcome. Lupin was the kind of man who would do all that he could to shepherd in a better tomorrow.

Helena12 July 26th, 2007 6:08 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
I think JKR once stated that Lupin was one of her favorite characters. In PoA, he seemed like one of the only truly good and unflawed adults in the books. Sure, he was a werewolf, but that was only a physical problem. It was more important his mind was unprejudiced; he never showed favoritism and was a good role model for all, not caring what others thought of his shabby appearance.

I really think his stage presence went downhill after PoA, though he is still one of my favorites. All of his other appearances seemed rushed, as though JKR was just including him to remind us that he was still there. He was always described as looking older and grayer than the last time Harry saw him. Indeed, he was described in this fashion so many times that he must have looked like he was about 80 by the time we got to DH.

I think his flaws make him more likeable (I mean, no one can be THAT calm, cool, and collected), but I was rather shocked by his behavior toward Harry at the beginning of DH. However, he did later redeem himself. I guess my main problem is not with him, but with the way his character was written after PoA. He seemed to be shunted off to the side, and many of his actions did not seem to fit with the impression I was left with at the end of PoA. I'll always remember him as the DADA teacher, because that was when he was most attractive as a character.

wickedwickedboy July 26th, 2007 7:47 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
I agree that JKR didn't do a very good job at writing Remus' character. I think that like Madron mentioned above, some people lost respect for him in DH, completely misunderstanding what she was trying to say. She rushed his out of character persona in DH on everyone and those who hadn't followed him very closely took things at face value. Some people lived and died by Harry's construction at #12 and suddenly everything that was written before about Remus went out of the window. I think some even missed the fact that he was acting out of character because they hadn't really consiered his character before that or they had merely considered it in a very light, minor character, unimportant way.

However, those of us who deeply loved the character searched for answers. Seriously, I went from page 214 to 441 with so much anger in my heart for JKR, it reached the point where I found myself having to re-read things. I cheered everytime anything bad happened to Harry - and my respect for him fell about 50%. I don't think she meant for the interaction between Remus and Harry to have that big of an impact on anyone, especially seeing how she worked it out starting on page 441 and it only got better after that. And I also think she thought it wouldn't impact us much because Remus was not a character of the level of Ron or Hermione, etc. Note how quickly Ron's tirade was repaired. I think she knew that would cause angst, but it was not 200 pages worth. That is something I don't think she took into consideration.

And what she didn't write, but what I believe based on Remus' character is that he would have eventually gone back to Tonks and his baby whether he spoke with Harry or not.

ps. I understand she was rushed, perhaps for both page length and time, so in the after-math I am more forgiving. I mean even with Hedwig, there was little mourning by Harry and the poor kid had to blow the bird up, couldn't even let him just drop. I think in a longer book and with more time, JKR would have written things a lot differently and in a little less abrupt manner.

MadForMoony July 26th, 2007 9:40 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
I too noticed the slight change in how Lupin's former students soon started calling him Remus. I believe Hermione does it too at one point.
The fact that he cursed Harry cemented how much Harry meant to him...to have someone you care about insult you is way worse than someone you don't give a rip about insult you, although I have never seen Lupin as someone who was ever violent toward anyone that wasn't a Death Eater or someone to ever lose their temper.

Is it just me, or did it seem like since Dumbledore's death, the Order seemed to really rest on his shoulders along with Kingsley and Arthur? I think it had a lot to do with how he sort of became a little unhinged more often in this book.

Mia_Potter July 26th, 2007 4:16 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4654626)
I agree that JKR didn't do a very good job at writing Remus' character. I think that like Madron mentioned above, some people lost respect for him in DH, completely misunderstanding what she was trying to say. She rushed his out of character persona in DH on everyone and those who hadn't followed him very closely took things at face value. Some people lived and died by Harry's construction at #12 and suddenly everything that was written before about Remus went out of the window. I think some even missed the fact that he was acting out of character because they hadn't really consiered his character before that or they had merely considered it in a very light, minor character, unimportant way.

However, those of us who deeply loved the character searched for answers. Seriously, I went from page 214 to 441 with so much anger in my heart for JKR, it reached the point where I found myself having to re-read things. I cheered everytime anything bad happened to Harry - and my respect for him fell about 50%. I don't think she meant for the interaction between Remus and Harry to have that big of an impact on anyone, especially seeing how she worked it out starting on page 441 and it only got better after that. And I also think she thought it wouldn't impact us much because Remus was not a character of the level of Ron or Hermione, etc. Note how quickly Ron's tirade was repaired. I think she knew that would cause angst, but it was not 200 pages worth. That is something I don't think she took into consideration.

And what she didn't write, but what I believe based on Remus' character is that he would have eventually gone back to Tonks and his baby whether he spoke with Harry or not.

ps. I understand she was rushed, perhaps for both page length and time, so in the after-math I am more forgiving. I mean even with Hedwig, there was little mourning by Harry and the poor kid had to blow the bird up, couldn't even let him just drop. I think in a longer book and with more time, JKR would have written things a lot differently and in a little less abrupt manner.

My only issue with that whole scene with Harry being so horrible to Lupin was that imo JKR did not clearly show how upset harry was by what he felt he had to do. Harry was so afraid of losing yet another Father figure, he had lost James, Sirius and Dumbledore and Harry could not have bared it to lose Lupin and take Lupin from his own child to. So Harry was actually quite brave in saying the one thing guaranteed to make Lupin wake up and go back to Tonks and their unborn child. It actually cost Harry to hurt Lupin like that because he had no way of knowing if Lupin would ever forgive him. My heart ached for Lupin, so afraid he had damned Tonks and unborn Teddy to a life as an outcast simply because Tonks fell in love with a werewolf. And then when Harry saw Lupin and Tonk's bodies lying there next to Fred. I lost it I couldn't believe Lupin was gone, Harry's last connection to his parents. :upset:

Credo Buffa July 26th, 2007 4:29 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4654626)
Some people lived and died by Harry's construction at #12 and suddenly everything that was written before about Remus went out of the window. I think some even missed the fact that he was acting out of character because they hadn't really consiered his character before that or they had merely considered it in a very light, minor character, unimportant way.

Well said. The brilliant think that JKR does with her characters is show you that they all have their unsavory flaws. We even discover in DH that good ol' Dumbledore has had to struggle with the darker parts of his personality his whole life. I think a lot of people have liked Remus so much because he looked so much like an infallible character: he always seemed calm, always knew the right thing to say in every situation, was able to put his own stuggles behind him to be there for others. But if you really examine his character up to DH, you realize that he always had those flaws that rear their ugly heads so suddenly and violently. I definitely agree that JKR might have done that scene differently to a much greater (and more universally understood) effect, but she does show us that the incident at Grimmauld Place was just that--an incident--and if there's any one thing we're supposed to learn from Remus, it's that you can't judge a person based on one moment or one characteristic. It's pretty obvious that he realizes his mistake and makes amends, and it takes a strong character to own up to such a serious misjudgement.

ETA: Okay, so JKR has revealed in an interview with USA Today that Lupin and Tonks are indeed the two characters she had not initially intended to die:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKR, USA Today
There were deaths that were traumatic to write, she says.

"Fred (Weasley, brother of Harry's friend Ron), Lupin (a former teacher at Hogwarts, the school for wizards and witches that Harry attended) and Tonks (Lupin's wife) really caused me a lot of pain," Rowling says.

"Lupin and Tonks were two who were killed who I had intended to keep alive. … It's like an exchange of hostages, isn't it? And I kept Mr. Weasley (Ron's father) alive. He was slated to die in the very, very original draft of the story."

So, what do you all think about this switch that she made? Does it make Remus and Tonks's deaths have more purpose to know who was supposed to die instead? Is that purpose served better/worse by substituting them for Mr. Weasley?

MadForMoony July 26th, 2007 7:34 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
In reference to that USA Today quote...I can understand why she'd switch Arthur with Lupin...but Lupin AND Tonks? I think killing both of them was unnecessary.
I think she decided to get rid of Lupin over Arthur because Lupin was truly the last person who had a real connection with his father...he was one of James' best buddies and I suppose she just wanted to cut all physical ties to the past. And I think perhaps Ron losing his father might have been like...perhaps to close to Harry's own perdicament, especially since Ron is also a main character where Teddy isn't, so somehow maybe it's alright for him to be orphaned rather than Ron be fatherless. I think she killed Lupin because it would maybe be...less traumatic. In my eyes, it's very sad to be orphaned at such a young age. But to be 17 and lose a father that was so much a part of your life would be I think even more devastating and to write that into an already packed book would have been too much attention away from Harry essentially.
But why she had to kill both Lupin and Tonks I'll never know. The fact that BOTH of them died could add more purpose to their death I guess...I'm still wrestling with that idea.

wickedwickedboy July 26th, 2007 9:03 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
I thought maybe she didn't want to leave Tonks in misery, but considering she left George in the same state Tonks would have been in, I have no idea why she killed Tonks. Maybe so people could understand how a brilliant wizard like Remus (one of 3 in the entire series to show wand less magic capability) could die. Tonks ran after him when he fought Dolovoh (however u spell it) and perhaps she distracted him? For those who realized Remus' alibility, that would make more sense than him just being killed by some DE. We can't be certain that it was Dolovoh that killed him...he may have moved on into a different battle or joined one that Tonks was fighting and Dolovoh or another DE attacked from behind. We don't know. But it allows for more probable outcomes if Tonks did at some point come into his line of vision during the battle. It was all I could think when I saw Tonks was dead too.

This is kind of also given support by the fact that their bodies were lying next to one another, as if they had been found at the same time somewhere and brought into the castle (so they were likely close together). Then too, they were married, so they could have simply been placed together, so it is kind of left open for everyone to decide for themselves.

My version: He died a valiant death as did Tonks while fighting to save the wizard world. Now he is happy with James and Sirius :)

thefallen544 July 27th, 2007 2:02 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
wickedwickedboy I find myself agreeing with you again, Remus was truly a remarkable wizard and I have to question if it was maybe his dedication to protecting others, and especially his wife that may have got him killed. As you mentioned he is one of only three to show wandless magic throughout the whole series and it would suprise me if JK had him killed by "any random DE" without any special circumstances.

DarkDaysAhead July 27th, 2007 5:18 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What do we know about his relationships to Sirius Black/Fenrir Greyback/Alastor Moody/James Potter/Lily Evans/Peter Pettigrew/Severus Snape/Harry Potter?

I think he's a good guy but is too easily influenced. He places so much weight on what others think of him that he kind of causes some of his own problems. For example, it would have been far easier for him to deal with society and its issues as they came rather than to start worrying before his child was even born.

2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?

Most definitely.

One could almost liken Remus and Tonks's union to the union of a black woman and a white man -- there are people who are giong to wrinkle their noses but why allow a few miffed people stand in your way? In the end, you'll only hurt yourself and your loved one(s) so there's no point in allowing someone to influence you in such a manner. It's not as though Remus marrying Tonks seriously hurt anyone...he loved her, she loved him. By turning her away, he would have been hurting not only himself but the woman he loved as well. Neither party would have benefitted from such a move.

Not only did he make the right decision in marrying her but he also made the right decision in returning to her and their son. Even if his son were to have a tough time growing up, I think he'd be proud of his father, knowing that he stuck it out because he loved him and his mother.

3. Why didnít Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?

I'd say two things kept him from contacting Harry -- shame and pain. He's always so down on himself that he probably felt Harry would be better off not knowing him. Who knows what kind of life he lived before Hogwarts? What jobs he held, how he lost them, how much money he had to his name, etc.? I reckon he also would have found contacting Harry to be rather painful and just decided to stay away.

4. What was Lupinís role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?

Hm, I'd never really thought about this...

I can't imagine what else Dumbledore would have had him do...

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?

Tough question...

I'd really like to be able to say, "Yeah, he should have stayed at home." but look at how many parents fought. He was far from being the only one and that even holds true in real life. In the end, I think he made the right decision. He would have felt guilty had he stayed away and his son may have ended up feeling his dad was a little cowardly/selfish anyways.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thefallen544 (Post 4659435)
As you mentioned he is one of only three to show wandless magic throughout the whole series and it would suprise me if JK had him killed by "any random DE" without any special circumstances.

The Battle of Hogwarts, Deathly Hallows"Have you seen Remus?" Tonks called after him.

"He was dueling Dolohov," shouted Aberforth, "haven't seen him since!"

"Tonks," said Ginny, "Tonks, I'm sure he's okay -"

[cut]

Dean had won himself a wand, for he was face-to-face with Dolohov, Parvati with Travers.


When I read that, I got a little nervous. I thought, "What happened to Lupin? Wasn't he fighting Dolohov? Where did he go?..." I kind of think Dolohov got the better of him...

Credo Buffa July 27th, 2007 5:56 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkDaysAhead (Post 4660329)
The Battle of Hogwarts, Deathly Hallows"Have you seen Remus?" Tonks called after him.

"He was dueling Dolohov," shouted Aberforth, "haven't seen him since!"

"Tonks," said Ginny, "Tonks, I'm sure he's okay -"

[cut]

Dean had won himself a wand, for he was face-to-face with Dolohov, Parvati with Travers.


When I read that, I got a little nervous. I thought, "What happened to Lupin? Wasn't he fighting Dolohov? Where did he go?..." I kind of think Dolohov got the better of him...

Hmmmm. . . Now that I read it again, I think you're probably right. It seems a bit odd that if Dolohov had been dueling with Lupin, he would have moved on to a one-on-one duel with Dean unless 1) Lupin had felt he was more needed elsewhere, or 2) Dolohov had successfully defeated Lupin. Obviously, Lupin wouldn't have left Dean alone in that duel if he could have been there to prevent it.

MadForMoony July 27th, 2007 7:50 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
If Dolohov got Lupin, is it strange that it bothers me to think that Dean, a 17 year old wizard, was able to get a wand from a Death Eater who was able to snuff Lupin out like that? I guess that just goes to show you that...no matter how good you are at dueling (or not good), you are gone with just one spell. Poor Lupin. :no:

DarkDaysAhead July 27th, 2007 9:36 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Well, Dean's acquiring a wand may not have been all that heroic. He may have gotten one from a fallen Death Eater or even a fallen ally. Maybe even Lupin himself? Hm, there's something to think about...

Anything could have happened. Lupin may have even gotten taken out by someone else while battling Dolohov for all we know. Maybe he turned his back to help a friend and bam! Maybe it comes down to exactly what you said -- all it takes is one spell.

thefallen544 July 27th, 2007 4:45 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Yeah DarkDaysAhead when I read that Dean was not fighting Dolohov I got worried as well, I instantly twigged that Lupin had been dueling him before. I think I would agree now that it was probably Dolohov who got him, after all hes not a random DE as I first thought. He's seen in the Battle at the Ministry he takes down Mad-Eye Moody leaves him unconcious and bleeding and his magical eye skittering across the foor. If I remember right. I kinda liked the idea that Dean picked up Lupin's wand, continuing his fight etc. Dunno why...long as it was returned after, you know.

thedragonfly July 27th, 2007 5:20 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
1. Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What do we know about his relationships to Sirius Black/Fenrir Greyback/Alastor Moody/James Potter/Lily Evans/Peter Pettigrew/Severus Snape/Harry Potter?
I love him. I think he's a down-to-earth, honest, caring guy. He has his moments of self-doubts, which is his greatest weakness, but he overcomes it. He takes Harry's advice to heart and returns to his family, but he still finds a way to let Harry know he's out there. He's just a good, caring guy, and he dies for Harry. That counts for something.

2. Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?
Yes, he made the right decision going back. Tonks' love was eating her up when it was unrequited, so it would've been cruel to do that to her when she was about to have a child.

3. Why didnít Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?
Perhaps fear? Maybe he was afraid to see Harry and feel guilty that he was alive and James and Lily weren't? Fear that Harry would hate what he was? Fear that he would have to explain about Sirius to him?

4. What was Lupinís role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?
No clue, but I'd like to know!

5. Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?
Well, seeing as I wanted him to live, no. But on a less biased POV, yes. He needed to be by Harry. Defeating Voldemort was personal. Voldemort killed his friends. He needed to play his part in the war, and he needed to die to give Harry strength for what he was about to do. As much as it's sad for Teddy, Harry needed Lupin more.

wickedwickedboy July 27th, 2007 6:38 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
We have no idea what happened between Remus and Dolohov. Especially in light of Tonks running into the scene. It could have been Dolohov got the upper hand or others could have joined in with Dolohov. But what seems WAY more likely is that Remus saw someone like Bella fighting Tonks who had come running along and moved to aid her and was taken down in the rush. But the fact is JKR left it so we don't know for sure so that those of us who recall he was an amazing wizard are not left scratching our heads that Dolohov took him out.

It would be in Remus' character to run to his wife's aid (and visa versa), and that is why I believe she had them lying next to one another...showing that they were likely found at about the same time and in the same place and thus Remus had gone to Tonks aid or visa versa ending in both being killed.

But the details don't bother me at all. I like to think that he died valiantly and that is enough for me. I believe he was one of the bravest characters in the series on many levels. Many a coward would have given up on trying to live in a world in which they were shunned by 90% of the community; even some brave men would not extend their bravery to risking their lives to make a better world for those same people to live in. The dude was incredible and I think the analogy JKR liked to draw between Remus and the disabled was lovely. Don't count out those who are down and out in society - even if society makes them feel that way. Some people just have the inner strength of character to overcome all of that and fight for the right thing anyway - that was the character of our Remus.

owlpostgirl July 27th, 2007 7:26 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Lupin is my favorite character. I just always saw a lot of myself in Lupin, and I've loved watching him grow throughout the series. I thought it was wonderful that he found Tonks and that he became a father.

I disagree with Harry when he accused Lupin of being reckless like Sirius. I don't think Lupin was ever reckless. But I do suspect that when Lupin found out Tonks was pregnant he panicked - all his old experiences of being shunned and concerns about what that would mean for Tonks probably boiled back to the surface. I was so happy when he arrived at Shell Cottage to announce Teddy's birth - I think he had finally learned to accept himself, and to understand that Tonks accepted him as well. I wish he had lived to overcome the adversity he still suffered under - I feel like his arc was cut short.

sweets7 July 27th, 2007 7:54 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by owlpostgirl (Post 4662579)
I disagree with Harry when he accused Lupin of being reckless like Sirius. I don't think Lupin was ever reckless. But I do suspect that when Lupin found out Tonks was pregnant he panicked - all his old experiences of being shunned and concerns about what that would mean for Tonks probably boiled back to the surface. I was so happy when he arrived at Shell Cottage to announce Teddy's birth - I think he had finally learned to accept himself, and to understand that Tonks accepted him as well. I wish he had lived to overcome the adversity he still suffered under - I feel like his arc was cut short.

I agree, i don't think he was trying to be like Sirius. I figure he just panicked, and saw this as a logical way, in which he could help keep his family safe, but also, protect them from his direct influence. He had just come round to the idea of getting married (which I figure had taken him about a year) and on top of that what surely must have been an unplanned pregnancy, probably blow his mind. I am sad that Lupin never got much time to enjoy with his wife and child, but he had a few months (with Teddy) and he overcame his demons in the end, so I am glad of that at least.

Ifink2much July 27th, 2007 9:08 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by owlpostgirl (Post 4662579)
I disagree with Harry when he accused Lupin of being reckless like Sirius. I don't think Lupin was ever reckless. But I do suspect that when Lupin found out Tonks was pregnant he panicked - all his old experiences of being shunned and concerns about what that would mean for Tonks probably boiled back to the surface. I was so happy when he arrived at Shell Cottage to announce Teddy's birth - I think he had finally learned to accept himself, and to understand that Tonks accepted him as well. I wish he had lived to overcome the adversity he still suffered under - I feel like his arc was cut short.

True,he wasn't being reckless.It must have been a terrible though,he knew first hand what it ws like to be a werewolf,and now there ws a chance that his son would go through it,and in typical Remus behaviour,he starts blaming himself.
I feel as his arc didn't exist in its own right,it was there to draw a comparision between Harry and Teddy.

Credo Buffa July 27th, 2007 9:44 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MadForMoony (Post 4660859)
If Dolohov got Lupin, is it strange that it bothers me to think that Dean, a 17 year old wizard, was able to get a wand from a Death Eater who was able to snuff Lupin out like that? I guess that just goes to show you that...no matter how good you are at dueling (or not good), you are gone with just one spell. Poor Lupin. :no:

I thought he would have acquired the wand before fighting Dolohov, as in Lupin would have been killed before Dean began dueling with him.

Ifink2much July 28th, 2007 5:08 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by thefallen544 (Post 4659435)
wickedwickedboy I find myself agreeing with you again, Remus was truly a remarkable wizard and I have to question if it was maybe his dedication to protecting others, and especially his wife that may have got him killed. As you mentioned he is one of only three to show wandless magic throughout the whole series and it would suprise me if JK had him killed by "any random DE" without any special circumstances.

To me it's more plausible that Tonks died first.She ws killed and the shock caught him off gaurd so that he was attacked(we know it only takes a second),or maybe the shock caused him to act reacklessly.

Mia_Potter July 28th, 2007 6:29 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ifink2much (Post 4666251)
To me it's more plausible that Tonks died first.She ws killed and the shock caught him off gaurd so that he was attacked(we know it only takes a second),or maybe the shock caused him to act reacklessly.

In my mind it happened one of two ways. Either Remus tried to save Tonks and was killed and then she was killed because that had thrown her off. Or like you said he saw her get killed (and by Bellatrix IMO) and that distracted him just long enough that he got hit with a killing shot. :upset:

Ifink2much July 28th, 2007 7:27 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mia_Potter (Post 4666490)
In my mind it happened one of two ways. Either Remus tried to save Tonks and was killed and then she was killed because that had thrown her off. Or like you said he saw her get killed (and by Bellatrix IMO) and that distracted him just long enough that he got hit with a killing shot. :upset:

Either way,poor Remus,poor poor Remus.

wickedwickedboy July 28th, 2007 9:57 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Remus loved having friends; being liked. JKR said he cuts them a lot of slack and seemed to think this a flaw in his character. I dunno. I don't really think so.

Still being shunned and living as an outcast after being loved by 3 friends was likely nearly intolerable at times. Hopefully he found something to do all the years we know nothing about and didn't sit around feeling sorry for himself.

Still we know he didn't want anyone else to have to feel the saddness and humility of being an outcast and shunned. Thus the Tonks marriage situation. And passing that scenario on to a kid was probably abhorent to him. All understandable. I see that he might have felt that if he were not with them, they might escape some of the shunning. He came around to changing his mind about not being there for them, rather than them being better off with him there. Nonetheless, he came around to changing his mind about not being there for them, rather than them being better off with him there.

He fought for the cause with the first Order, retook up the cause when it became necessary and joined the second Order. And all of this time kept up his wizarding skills (conjuring fire in his hand in the train in POA - Quick draw in DH - unscathed in OOTP in the battle at the ministry - obviously he was quite the wizard).

He died valiantly fighting for the cause with his wife. He left a legacy (the only other Marauder aside from James to do so). He backed Harry even though he was not allowed to get too close until the end (likely at the request of DD). And he had the capacity to forgive - he told Harry to mellow out on Severus even tho Lupin and Sev could never be best buddies, he felt they could at least get along and work together in the Order. He was thankful Snape had made him potion (even if DD instructed Snape to do so) and he was livid that Snape couldn't give up on the old grudge in POA when he himself was willing to do so (he admits he too disliked Snape in POA).

He seemed very responsible, although some say he was not because in the heat of the moment, when Pettigrew appeared, he forgot to take his potion (POA). But I see it as a moment of total freak out. He saw Pettigrew! That was unbelieveable, a man he thought dead! That could mean so many things to do with his old friends he was likely going nuts in that moment. So I understand his forgetting.

In the end Remus was simply an incredible character. Brave (although he thought himself cowardly at times - because he didn't want those who DID like him to stop liking him - understandable since hardly anyone liked him; and even had a moment when he didn't want to face up to the fact that he'd made his bed (married and had Teddy) and had to lay in it - but lay in it he did in the end after a brief freak out). Otherwise we only see bravery. Risking his life to make the wizard world better for those who shunned him - and later for his child as well. We see kindness (Neville during DADA and Harry w/ Patronus); we see consideration, love, care, etc in his dealings with Harry.

It was nice to see Harry return these things for Remus in many scenes - as much as Harry did for all (not too expressive of a kid, lol).

I suppose in short, that is why he was the greatest character in the entire series for me, over every single other character JKR created.

Then again, I've always been a sucker for werewolves!

Ifink2much July 28th, 2007 10:32 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
In short Remus was great!So true.
And how he forgave Harry even though he said some very very harsh things.To be so forgiving,wonderful.

wickedwickedboy July 28th, 2007 11:02 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ifink2much (Post 4667296)
In short Remus was great!So true.
And how he forgave Harry even though he said some very very harsh things.To be so forgiving,wonderful.

To be honest, I believe he felt Harry was correct deep down inside (as he admitted on the broadcast) so although Harry was thinking forgiveness was needed, Remus was never really angry at Harry's words (although he may not have liked the choice of words) he was more angry because Harry had hit the nail on the head and deep down he knew Harry was right. He wasn't so much forgiving as admitting to Harry being correct.

I agree though, it was a wonderful moment when Remus let Harry know how he felt about it. Both on the broadcast and when he asked him to be godfather. I think Harry realized all of this.

toonmili July 29th, 2007 8:03 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Well I don't think they were harsh at all. They were the words he needed to hear. He wa acting like a coward. He was ready to leave his wife and kid.

I said it before. Remus runs away form eveything, even things that he wants. I'm not sure if he totally kicked the habit at the end of Deathly Hallows. I was so distracted my Snape I hardly took on anyone else. I just remember Tonks running after him.

wickedwickedboy July 29th, 2007 8:26 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by toonmili (Post 4669055)
Well I don't think they were harsh at all. They were the words he needed to hear. He wa acting like a coward. He was ready to leave his wife and kid.

I said it before. Remus runs away form eveything, even things that he wants. I'm not sure if he totally kicked the habit at the end of Deathly Hallows. I was so distracted my Snape I hardly took on anyone else. I just remember Tonks running after him.

Harry may not have chosen the best way to say what he meant (he admits he didn't think Remus a coward, just being cowardly about Tonks/Teddy for a bit), but the words were needed. JKR pulled remus out of character, she had to kick him back in. Harry did it and it was an opportunity to show us that Harry actually cared about Remus. We hadn't much of an indication before then.

Tooni..."Remus runs from everything" is a blanket statement. I believe you mean from Tonks (marriage/pregnant). We never saw him run from anything else. That is why he appeared so out of character in the scene where he and Harry end up arguing. I suppose it was easy to become distracted if you were into the Snape scenario, but maybe you will re-read it one day. Remus did not run from the cause, fighting for it, his friends' sides, his promises, nor his attempts to protect Harry. He did not run from his responsibilities except in one instance. I went into this above in that long post you can read it - he was freaking understandably so.

Imagine you have a disease that you can pass onto your kid. Most people in that situation do not have kids. When they do, they abort or freak out. Well he freaked, pretty natural reaction. But JKR pulled him back into character and he returned. He didn't need Harry to do that - - but it helped him get there a lot sooner.

JKR needed him to make the realization quickly because she planned to kill him before too long.

If you had been paying attention, you would have seen that when Tonks was looking for Remus during the battle, Amberforth told her he had seen him battling. Tonks wasn't supposed to be there...she ran off after him. He was fighting and died during the battle - in case you were wondering since you missed it and only remember Tonks running after him. I know you were anxious to get to Snape and that might have happened about the time he was flying off like a bat in the sky or in with Voldemort being killed, so I understand the distraction :)

Ifink2much July 29th, 2007 12:50 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4669106)
Imagine you have a disease that you can pass onto your kid. Most people in that situation do not have kids. When they do, they abort or freak out. Well he freaked, pretty natural reaction. But JKR pulled him back into character and he returned. He didn't need Harry to do that - - but it helped him get there a lot sooner.

He didn't even have to imagine.Every painful tranformation must have come flooding back to him.The freak out was understandable.

Personally I'd like to think that Remus would have gone back anyway,I believe he would have.
I must say I found it a little sad that Remus confided in the trio,as if there was really no one else he could talk too.

Credo Buffa July 29th, 2007 9:30 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4667172)
Remus loved having friends; being liked. JKR said he cuts them a lot of slack and seemed to think this a flaw in his character. I dunno. I don't really think so.

The issue with this being a character flaw is that it probably made it easy for people to walk all over him. Take "Snape's Worst Memory" for instance:
Quote:

Originally Posted by OoTP, p. 645 US edition
"I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was full moon."

"You might," said Lupin darkly from behind his book.

There are a few times when we see that James and Sirius showed in their youth a bit of insensitivity (or at least misjudgement) toward Remus's condition. They saw it as something fun; running around with a werewolf every month made them feel dangerous and special. The height of this is obviously the prank against Snape. What would have happened if James hadn't stepped in? What if Snape had made it all the way into the Shack and met a transformed Remus there? Remus's desire to be liked, which led him to hide his discomfort at the light-hearted way in which his friends treated his condition rather than speak up for himself, would have inadvertently led to disaster.

This ties into the "running away from everything" idea. And while it is, as you say wickedwickedboy, a blanket statement, it does happen much more than might seem obvious:

- In PoA, he resigns rather than wait for the wrath from parents which he assumes is coming to him. Instead of standing up for himself and trying to prove that he can still be a good person and good teacher, he lets history repeat itself.

- In OoTP, we see in "Snape's Worst Memory" that he does not intervene when James and Sirius confront Snape, even though he obviously knows it is wrong. He is figuratively "walking away" from a situation in which he feels he has no power, probably because he is not accustomed to standing up to his friends and is afraid of what they will say to him.

- In HBP, he is turning his back on a relationship with Tonks because he feels she doesn't deserve him.

- And obviously, the big one in DH when he tries to go off with Harry and leave Tonks and his unborn baby behind to prevent, once again, assumed consequences.

Even in smaller instances, we find that he doesn't allow himself to articulate or acknowledge his true feelings about things--he doesn't react to Sirius's death with the kind of fervor we know he feels, he doesn't express his frustration at having to be "among his equals" in HBP even though it clearly upsets him--another kind of figurative "running away". So really, as harsh as it sounds, his ignoring or avoiding of situations rather than confronting them is clearly a running character trait. And while it's obviously understandable that he would do these things, it doesn't mean that it's not a fault. It's the same as saying that it's understandable that Snape would hate Harry; just because it's understandable doesn't mean it's always right or forgivable, because, as JKR has shown us so potently, there are always choices to be made.

But honestly, I think recognizing that makes Remus's behavior in DH less shocking. If we consider that his typical response to uncomfortable situations is to avoid them, then it's easy to see how he might make such a rash and ultimately bad decision to leave Tonks. He's obviously taught himself through a lifetime of submission that walking the other way is something that works: it prevents uncomfortable and possibly damaging confrontation, it saves him from embarrassment, and makes him feel like he is protecting those around him. But clearly, he's never been in a situation like this before, where he's ultimately committed and the consequences of his decisions fundamentally affect the lives of others. So, he sees a situation in which he has done something to potentially harm others, feels that going away yet again is the best solution for everyone, and that's that.

In a way, we can consider him as being naive in his new position as a husband and future father; things are obviously happening very quickly, and he hasn't had time to consider what it really means. So when Harry stands up to him, he's probably having it handed to him on a platter for the first time that "Hey, this is something you can't run away from. This isn't a class that someone else can teach. This isn't your friends who will still manage whether you stand up to them or not. This is your wife and your child." So, for the first time, he's put in a position that he has to confront head-on. That's got to be a terrifying thing for him, feeling so completely responsible for the lives of other people in a way that has nothing to do with the fact that he's a werewolf. And undoubtedly he would have come to this conclusion anyway. We all know that he's an extremely caring person, and no one with the kind of inherent goodness that Remus has could let the idea of leaving a wife and child behind go for long. But, as others here have said, Harry's intervention undoubtedly helped, and who knows what might have happened to Remus and Tonks's relationship if it had taken him longer to get to that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by toonmili
I'm not sure if he totally kicked the habit at the end of Deathly Hallows. I was so distracted my Snape I hardly took on anyone else. I just remember Tonks running after him.

Tonks was "running after him" because he had gone into battle, but this was certainly an instance where he did so because it was the right and necessary thing to do, not because he was trying to give his family the slip again. I think JKR makes it pretty clear at the end that Remus has finally found a kind of peace in his new life. We see him almost deliriously happy for the first time when he announces the birth of his son, and one of the last actions we see from him is him showing pictures of little Teddy to Fleur. When Tonks arrived, she knew that Remus was there; it was undoubtedly a decision that they made together that he should fight.

wickedwickedboy July 29th, 2007 10:12 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4670792)
This ties into the "running away from everything" idea. And while it is, as you say wickedwickedboy, a blanket statement, it does happen much more than might seem obvious:

- In PoA, he resigns rather than wait for the wrath from parents which he assumes is coming to him. Instead of standing up for himself and trying to prove that he can still be a good person and good teacher, he lets history repeat itself.



Recall however he said: I almost bit you guys last night. That cannot happen again. I think it can be argued that he did indeed consider staying (it was hard to find a job and he had one!), but that was at war with the notion that he might bite someone and the idea repulsed him. He felt he was doing the responsible thing by going away, not running away from a situation that 'could possibly' work out. Snape's ratting him out was just the icing on the cake.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4670792)
- In OoTP, we see in "Snape's Worst Memory" that he does not intervene when James and Sirius confront Snape, even though he obviously knows it is wrong. He is figuratively "walking away" from a situation in which he feels he has no power, probably because he is not accustomed to standing up to his friends and is afraid of what they will say to him.


Note, however, that the pensive scene we saw is not the whole story. Sirius said in OOTP 'we were all idiots...well except for remus' and Remus said, 'yeah but I didn't try to stop you' and Sirius responded, 'you made us feel ashamed of ourselves sometimes, so that was something"

So we know that Remus may have felt he should have spoken up more often, but he obviously did speak to them about it often enough for Sirius to say this (he wouldn't likely have even recalled if Remus had only made them feel ashamed once.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4670792)
- In HBP, he is turning his back on a relationship with Tonks because he feels she doesn't deserve him.


I think he feels that she deserves someone who will not place her in the position of being an outcast and shunned by society due to being married to a werewolf. I agree he ran away from Tonks, but not in a cowardly fashion. He really felt that he was doing what was best for her in that situation. (he was right by the way; portions of society as it was at that time would have treated her as an outcast merely because she was married to him. You heard all the pureblood comments about it in DH).


I agree that Remus was not one for expressing himself in emotional situations (neither was Harry and in fact hardly anyone in the book because JKR doesn't write that way, except for Molly and other like emotional characters who expressed themselves in Harry's hearing - lol - Harry would seem like a cold, unemotional person if we had not been privy to all of his thoughts, in reality he was full of emotion and we got to read them all narrated. We don't get this for the other characters and those who are not emotional on the outside, like Remus, we cannot make a judgment about their emotions or how they react to them. We can only guess.) but we know how he felt. I don't call that running away from your feelings, it is just inexpressive. He felt them, he did not avoid them. He just didn't share them. He had no one to share them with that we know of. But again, we didn't see TONS of his life. He may have had a friend we don't know about who he shared his feelings with off screen. He did not share them with Harry till DH where JKR wanted us to see their relationship and understand the reunion scene better.

So I still wouldn't call what he did in DH as the basis of any norm of Remus' character. He did not run from things unless he felt that by doing so he would avoid hurting someone else or in the cases where he would lose the friendship/esteem of someone he treasured (avoidance more than running away - the latter signifies completely disregarding an issue. The first is dealing with it in a less than full manner). Considering the most of society shunned him, I don't find that at all surprising. Most would become outlaws and move against a society that treated them that way.

The dude was way braver than I would have been in most situations. I fully understood everything he did. I thought he was pulled out of character in DH on purpose by JKR because Remus' past behavior shows avoidance, but not lack of responsibility. Still for reasons you and I have discussed previously, it was believeable that he could reach that point and it was good Harry gave him a kick in the pants so he went back sooner than he may have done otherwise. But all that and later scenes up to his death were more to show his relationship with Harry rather than anything about Remus. Their contacts in the story showed a relationship between them that made sense of his being at the reunion later.

sweets7 July 29th, 2007 10:27 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
I think it is true, Lupin runs away from things, not from a cowards point of view, but because in a way he sees it as best for everyone. In his mind: It is a privilege for him to have friends, a job, a wife etc. so if he thinks there is any chance of them getting hurt, he runs; it is a very complex thing, I think. Some of the prejudice, from society, has sunk in somewhere.

wickedwickedboy July 29th, 2007 10:37 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
I do agree Sweets...completely. I think I just don't like the term "running away" because when I use that term I generally mean the person is acting without thinking. (like a teen gets upset and runs away from home). But I think that you and Credo are using the term more like I use the word 'avoidance'.

So it is just a 'term' thing. We are all in agreement here I think.

Credo Buffa July 29th, 2007 10:55 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4671039)
I think it is true, Lupin runs away from things, not from a cowards point of view, but because in a way he sees it as best for everyone. In his mind: It is a privilege for him to have friends, a job, a wife etc. so if he thinks there is any chance of them getting hurt, he runs; it is a very complex thing, I think. Some of the prejudice, form society, has sunk in somewhere.

Exactly. I never meant to suggest that any of these actions were done out of cowardice. Quite the opposite, actually. But it is his motivation behind all of these things that leads me to say that he has a habitually "looks the other way" in difficult situations. In almost every instance, he is assuming that there is something wrong with him. It's never society that is to blame, or the way he has been treaded his whole life. But the fact that he submits to the idea that he is the problem prevents him from standing up for himself.

wickedwickedboy July 29th, 2007 11:03 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4671189)
Exactly. I never meant to suggest that any of these actions were done out of cowardice. Quite the opposite, actually. But it is his motivation behind all of these things that leads me to say that he has a habitually "looks the other way" in difficult situations. In almost every instance, he is assuming that there is something wrong with him. It's never society that is to blame, or the way he has been treaded his whole life. But the fact that he submits to the idea that he is the problem prevents him from standing up for himself.

LOL I get that now...I am kind of slow. I agree with you completely. I just didn't have the same definition for the term you were using. We all meant the same thing.

Peg August 2nd, 2007 7:19 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4671189)
Exactly. I never meant to suggest that any of these actions were done out of cowardice. Quite the opposite, actually. But it is his motivation behind all of these things that leads me to say that he has a habitually "looks the other way" in difficult situations. In almost every instance, he is assuming that there is something wrong with him. It's never society that is to blame, or the way he has been treaded his whole life. But the fact that he submits to the idea that he is the problem prevents him from standing up for himself.

Agreed. It's been drilled into Remus that he is a danger to others, so he expects himself to hurt them. Sadly, the fact that he expects himslf to hurt others is what makes him do it: being a true Gryffindor, he decides to be noble and protect the people he loves by distancing himself from them in spite of his own misery, and because of his prejudice aginst himself, hd thinks they should be glad to be rid of him. But of course they aren't, and are hurt even more because they think he's rejecting them for some other reason.

Elder Granger August 3rd, 2007 1:28 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peg (Post 4685439)
Agreed. It's been drilled into Remus that he is a danger to others, so he expects himself to hurt them. Sadly, the fact that he expects himslf to hurt others is what makes him do it: being a true Gryffindor, he decides to be noble and protect the people he loves by distancing himself from them in spite of his own misery, and because of his prejudice against himself, he thinks they should be glad to be rid of him. But of course they aren't, and are hurt even more because they think he's rejecting them for some other reason.

Well... Being communicative and open is not exactly something we see Remus doing often. :sigh:

I agree completely that he sees himself as a danger to others... In more ways than one. He feels he's contaminated... Obviously by his lycanthropy, but also, look what has happened to all his closest friends. We see Remus as a very caring, and protective figure... But, always one step removed. He doesn't presume to play the father-figure role to Harry. Everyone's favorite teacher, mentor, psuedo-uncle... Sure. But, he can't get too close to people... He's 'too dangerous'. It all fits.

AK_WDB August 3rd, 2007 6:09 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4671039)
I think it is true, Lupin runs away from things, not from a cowards point of view, but because in a way he sees it as best for everyone. In his mind: It is a privilege for him to have friends, a job, a wife etc. so if he thinks there is any chance of them getting hurt, he runs; it is a very complex thing, I think. Some of the prejudice, from society, has sunk in somewhere.

This is very true. Lupin has always been somewhat of a loner because he knew he was "different". We saw that he was not completely in on all of James and Sirius's doings at school, partly because he had a more conservative personality and partly because his condition made him somewhat aloof. He paid the price for that when James and Sirius came to believe he was working for Voldemort. As an adult, Lupin's solitude increased---during Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince, we see that he lives with Sirius but leaves for long periods to do work on his own. Falling in love and getting married to Tonks, then having a child, especially with all happening so quickly, was a drastic change in his life. He was naturally scared that his condition would jeopardize their safety, and I think in a way he was unable to handle the commitment.

wickedwickedboy August 3rd, 2007 6:20 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AK_WDB (Post 4687242)
This is very true. Lupin has always been somewhat of a loner because he knew he was "different". We saw that he was not completely in on all of James and Sirius's doings at school, partly because he had a more conservative personality and partly because his condition made him somewhat aloof. He paid the price for that when James and Sirius came to believe he was working for Voldemort. As an adult, Lupin's solitude increased---during Order of the Phoenix and Half-Blood Prince, we see that he lives with Sirius but leaves for long periods to do work on his own. Falling in love and getting married to Tonks, then having a child, especially with all happening so quickly, was a drastic change in his life. He was naturally scared that his condition would jeopardize their safety, and I think in a way he was unable to handle the commitment.

Yes, I agree. Remeber when he was down on himself in the Shrieking Shack bemoaning the fact that he had not passed info to DD because at that time it was very likely that DD was his only friend and he was about to lose his admiration as well. But If you think about it, DD likely told Lupin that he totally understood and not to be upset about it (DD is always saying that to or about people he trusts that do stuff in contrary to him - excusing their behavior with his huge capacity for understanding). Still that would not keep Lupin from agonizing over it all and every other situation that came up in relation to his little furry problem.

By GOF we know Dumbles still trusts him as he sends Sirius to him to round up the troops and be apart of the new Order. But even knowing that there are those like DD Harry and Sirius who unconditionally hold him in high regard, he would still freak out when new situations arose like marriage and kids in relation to his little furry problem. I see it all as a growing process for Lupin and he was successfull in dealing with it all in the end.

I still think however, that it is sad society never grows up in the books w/ respect to their outlook on wizards with something extra (werewolves, vampires, giants, etc).

sweets7 August 3rd, 2007 5:01 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4687266)
I still think however, that it is sad society never grows up in the books w/ respect to their outlook on wizards with something extra (werewolves, vampires, giants, etc).

Well we are told that, under Kingsley, the wizarding world and its prejudices were tackled: that is was a much better place to live. It is a real shame that Lupin's character did not live to see the prejudice tackled.

wickedwickedboy August 3rd, 2007 11:27 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4688202)
Well we are told that, under Kingsley, the wizarding world and its prejudices were tackled: that is was a much better place to live. It is a real shame that Lupin's character did not live to see the prejudice tackled.

True, true - good point, so maybe there was a good outcome there. Glad you caught that! But actually, Rem didn't have to struggle through more pain while it was all happening. He got to be happy right away and begin pranking the afterworld with his friends, lol. I like the outcome he received. Happy at last and much deserved.

sweets7 August 4th, 2007 12:38 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4689495)
True, true - good point, so maybe there was a good outcome there. Glad you caught that! But actually, Rem didn't have to struggle through more pain while it was all happening. He got to be happy right away and begin pranking the afterworld with his friends, lol. I like the outcome he received. Happy at last and much deserved.

Well I am sure he and Tonks would have been happier to have lived and have seen their son grow - up, but it makes no odds: the series is finished, doesn't really matter what happened afterwards.

wickedwickedboy August 4th, 2007 12:41 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4689824)
Well I am sure he and Tonks would have been happier to have lived and have seen their son grow - up, but if makes no odds: the series is finished, doesn't really matter what happened afterwards.

Yeah they would have I agree. But at least they know he is in great hands with Andromeda and Harry and others. Since James and Lily seemed to know what was going on with Harry in the reunion scene, "we are so proud of you, you are so close, etc" at least Tonks and Rem will see that Teddy is happy and Snogging (LOL)

GiavonnixSavant August 4th, 2007 3:20 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
At first when I read HarryPotter I thought snogging meant dying. :p

We never exactly found out Remus's feelings towards Lily. I'm a firm Remus/Tonks shipper, but before, I think around the 3rd book, there was speculation about him having more than friendly feelings to her. :whistle:

<3

sweets7 August 4th, 2007 3:37 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GiavonnixSavant (Post 4690137)
At first when I read HarryPotter I thought snogging meant dying. :p

We never exactly found out Remus's feelings towards Lily. I'm a firm Remus/Tonks shipper, but before, I think around the 3rd book, there was speculation about him having more than friendly feelings to her. :whistle:<3

I love that, 'snogging' equals dying, very funny.

JKR said in her 2005 interview, that Lupin was found of Lily: he never would have competed with James over her and that she was a very popular girl and lots of boys liked her.

Pigleto972001 August 4th, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
i think remus didn't contact harry before PoA for the same reasons others have said, i think he felt guilty that harry's parents had died, and he was also afraid that harry would be frightened of him or would shun him because of his "furry little problem." i would not be surprised though if he sent hagrid some pics of harry's parents for the little photo album that harry gets at the end of SS.

i was stunned at harry and lupin's argument in the DH but it makes more sense after some reflection. harry, having lost his parents, would not want lupin to just "do a bunk" on his own family by turning his back on them. the fact that he learned that tom riddle sr. had done the same to LV might have had a little to do with his argument of a father willfully abandoning his son. lupin does go to fight and leaves teddy, but he goes to try to make his son's future a better place.

one thing i have enjoyed from reading all the books is that no one character is perfect. my favorite, sirius, definitely had his flaws. DD was definitely not always a saint. and lupin, one of harry's favorite teachers, shows that insecure side of him which prompts him to try to leave his wife and child behind.

wickedwickedboy August 4th, 2007 9:16 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Pigleto972001 (Post 4690403)
i think remus didn't contact harry before PoA for the same reasons others have said, i think he felt guilty that harry's parents had died, and he was also afraid that harry would be frightened of him or would shun him because of his "furry little problem." i would not be surprised though if he sent hagrid some pics of harry's parents for the little photo album that harry gets at the end of SS.

i was stunned at harry and lupin's argument in the DH but it makes more sense after some reflection. harry, having lost his parents, would not want lupin to just "do a bunk" on his own family by turning his back on them. the fact that he learned that tom riddle sr. had done the same to LV might have had a little to do with his argument of a father willfully abandoning his son. lupin does go to fight and leaves teddy, but he goes to try to make his son's future a better place.

one thing i have enjoyed from reading all the books is that no one character is perfect. my favorite, sirius, definitely had his flaws. DD was definitely not always a saint. and lupin, one of harry's favorite teachers, shows that insecure side of him which prompts him to try to leave his wife and child behind.

I think perhaps DD had asked Lupin not to be very open with Harry about things. You recall the hesitant way he was speaking to Harry in his office about Harry's parents. By then Lupin would no longer be worried about Harry being frightened of him. He certaintly felt sad about James and Lily's death, but what did he have to feel guilty about? And we know for sure that Lupin knew things that DD did not reveal to Harry until later; he likely asked Lupin not to reveal them either.

I think Lupin would want to have contacted Harry, if nothing more than to tell him about his parents and see the child of his good friends. I really believe DD had a hand in it, during the 12 years and at school. I think he would have been slow to get close due to his furry little problem, but I don't think he would have stayed clean away, it just doesn't make sense knowing how much he loved James and Lily.

Lupin only said so much in the classroom during his chat with Harry - he was totally not wanting to talk about Sirius nor go into any details about Harry's parents - even on a frivolous level. He said "I knew your dad, we were friends". He could have easily said more and not make it appear that they had been 'great friends', but I think DD had told him to chill.

I think Lupin checked with DD before saying things because as time went on he would say a little more and more. You note later in GOF and OOTP, he is much more open about things and even starts to allow himself to get closer to Harry. It is definitely in Lupins nature to not get too close to people due to his furry little problem and take his time in doing so, but this didn't start to happen until GOF which makes me look to DD having a hand in it.

Plus, Lupin kept getting emotional and holding himself back over little things like when Harry lost his broom. I think he would have said more at that point under normal circumstances. His furry problem came into play more like when he hesitantly reached out to comfort Harry, but in the end used words instead - that is his reluctance to get close to people coming into play. They finally got closer, but it took a long time - but the other, just the casual talking in POA at school, that was DD in play I think.

Credo Buffa August 4th, 2007 8:02 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4688202)
Well we are told that, under Kingsley, the wizarding world and its prejudices were tackled: that is was a much better place to live. It is a real shame that Lupin's character did not live to see the prejudice tackled.

Honestly, though, complete "tackling" of prejudice is an unrealistic outlook. Undoubtedly there would still be people out there wary of werewolves. Even if laws might have changed protecting their rights, it's extremely difficult to change people's minds, even in nineteen years' time.

And supposing, miraculously, that this did happen, it doesn't likewise follow that the werewolves of the world would themselves be transformed. Of course, it's a huge morale booster to be able to get a job and have people out there supporting them, but they'd still have to live with that knowledge that once a month they become uncontrollable and dangerous. Even in a world where prejudice has decreased, werewolves would still have to contend with that fact.

One thing I would hope for under a new regime would be that the Ministry would mandate that the wolfsbane potion be freely available for all werewolves. I imagine that, in the long run, that gesture would reduce the number of werewolf attacks and even, as generations go by, lead to the possibility of erradicating lycanthropy altogether.

Ifink2much August 4th, 2007 8:32 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4691690)
One thing I would hope for under a new regime would be that the Ministry would mandate that the wolfsbane potion be freely available for all werewolves. I imagine that, in the long run, that gesture would reduce the number of werewolf attacks and even, as generations go by, lead to the possibility of erradicating lycanthropy altogether.

That would be great wouldn't it?Think of the difference it would make.

crowheart August 4th, 2007 8:50 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4691690)
Honestly, though, complete "tackling" of prejudice is an unrealistic outlook. Undoubtedly there would still be people out there wary of werewolves. Even if laws might have changed protecting their rights, it's extremely difficult to change people's minds, even in nineteen years' time.

And supposing, miraculously, that this did happen, it doesn't likewise follow that the werewolves of the world would themselves be transformed. Of course, it's a huge morale booster to be able to get a job and have people out there supporting them, but they'd still have to live with that knowledge that once a month they become uncontrollable and dangerous. Even in a world where prejudice has decreased, werewolves would still have to contend with that fact.

You know, thinking about it, though, it's such a terrible prejudice, worse than most others. It's not even hating people for being born a certain way..it's hating people for having been victims, for having been attacked. I'm greatly surprised that people didn't band together and start treating them better.

Emperor_Gestahl August 4th, 2007 10:49 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4691690)
One thing I would hope for under a new regime would be that the Ministry would mandate that the wolfsbane potion be freely available for all werewolves. I imagine that, in the long run, that gesture would reduce the number of werewolf attacks and even, as generations go by, lead to the possibility of erradicating lycanthropy altogether.

I doubt they'd appriciate that gesture, as lupin said most people that are bittin embrace that wolfhood. When people come to give them a temprary cure to their horrible disease... Well, you've seen how Greyback can be.

Penguin92 August 4th, 2007 11:19 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
I believe That Remus Lupin represented a minority in the wizarding world and showed that even here prejudice in harry's world. His biggest downfall was his want to be liked by everyone his death was a tragic event he was a friend to many. I would like to point out something i noticed it was that the maraudrers lived longest in order from which the map first listed them masters mooney wormtail padfoot and prongs. James died first 16 years before then Sirius in Order of the phoenix then wormtails silver hand killed him then finally the last of the maruaders died at the hands of dolohov orphaning once again a child of the marauders. But Teddy shows us that the world has changed his situation is much like Harry's orphaned by voldemort but he gorws up a happy child without the problems harry faced

sweets7 August 4th, 2007 11:38 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Credo Buffa (Post 4691690)
Honestly, though, complete "tackling" of prejudice is an unrealistic outlook. Undoubtedly there would still be people out there wary of werewolves. Even if laws might have changed protecting their rights, it's extremely difficult to change people's minds, even in nineteen years' time.

Well no of course not; their 'tackling' would be akin to the abolishing of the laws against homosexuality, in the late 1960's, in the uk: it would just be the first step on the ladder. It had to be better then the complete prejudice that was in place during the time period of the books.

anabel August 4th, 2007 11:58 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Penguin92 (Post 4692076)
orphaning once again a child of the marauders. But Teddy shows us that the world has changed his situation is much like Harry's orphaned by voldemort but he gorws up a happy child without the problems harry faced

I thought that was a really nice parallel. Andromeda and Teddy would have been everything to each other, since all their other family members had been murdered, and Teddy had the sort of close relationship with Harry that Harry ought to have had with Sirius. So the situation was the same yet totally different and in a way the Marauders came full circle, with Harry and Teddy mirroring Sirius and young Harry.

Did anyone else want to punch Lupin in chapter 11? Such great timing for a mid-life crisis! I know that if you have a chronic illness, having a child can bring up issues you'd rather not think about, but I would never have believed Lupin would go as far as to walk out on his wife and unborn child! I'm so glad he listened to Harry and got his act together. I think Lupin was so used to being rejected because of his "furry little problem" and so accustomed to withdrawing in order to protect other people, that he just couldn't accept that Tonks and the baby were better off with him than without him. I don't think he was intentionally being selfish, but he didn't realise how much it was all just about him.

wickedwickedboy August 5th, 2007 12:12 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by anabel (Post 4692174)
I thought that was a really nice parallel. Andromeda and Teddy would have been everything to each other, since all their other family members had been murdered, and Teddy had the sort of close relationship with Harry that Harry ought to have had with Sirius. So the situation was the same yet totally different and in a way the Marauders came full circle, with Harry and Teddy mirroring Sirius and young Harry.

Did anyone else want to punch Lupin in chapter 11? Such great timing for a mid-life crisis! I know that if you have a chronic illness, having a child can bring up issues you'd rather not think about, but I would never have believed Lupin would go as far as to walk out on his wife and unborn child! I'm so glad he listened to Harry and got his act together. I think Lupin was so used to being rejected because of his "furry little problem" and so accustomed to withdrawing in order to protect other people, that he just couldn't accept that Tonks and the baby were better off with him than without him. I don't think he was intentionally being selfish, but he didn't realise how much it was all just about him.

I didn't want to punch him. I totally could relate. He thought he had created a baby werewolf who was going to have to live as an outcast and shunned, jobless, friendless and angry his whole life at the man who had done this to him (Remus). Remus was also mortified that his fears with relation to Tonks had been realized. She was now also being shunned by society merely for marrying him.

Remus was correct in a sense. Tonks died at Bella's hand because Voldemort made her the target, playing on society's ugly notion that "different is disgusting and wrong". Remus himself was targeted as a werewolf.

Remus would have eventually gone back to his family with or without Harry's input - if he had remained in character based on what we learned before (as you said, you couldn't believe he'd do that based on what we'd seen from him in the past and he'd of likely come around to being who he always had been eventually). But Harry I think got him back into shape much quicker - a nice hard shove in the right direction and made him realize that he'd already made his bed and must lie in it.

Remus got it together in the end on a personal level, but his fears were realized anyway - family targeted for who he was (werewolf) rather than merely for fighting against evil (which of course was another reason).

But the whole scenario had to happen to show the evolution of Harry and Remus' relationship; to show us that the family actually was still targeted (he'd been trailed for 3 days before arriving) and to resolve the issue of Remus and family in light of his 'furry little problem' because we would have wondered about whether or not he'd resolved it on a personal level if JKR had not addressed it (in HBP we recall him having a huge problem with it all - could we accept him just to have forgotten all that?).

Anyway all is well that ends well. Teddy is happy; Remus and Tonks are happy and no longer shunned/outcast in the next world - DD's description: the next great adventure!

anabel August 5th, 2007 12:20 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4692214)
I didn't want to punch him. I totally could relate. He thought he had created a baby werewolf who was going to have to live as an outcast and shunned, jobless, friendless and angry his whole life at the man who had done this to him (Remus).

Well, if the baby had turned out to be a werewolf, surely it would be a big help to have a supportive dad around to show him not all werewolves are monsters! Lupin didn't think that part through properly.
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4692214)
Remus was correct in a sense. Tonks died at Bella's hand because Voldemort made her the target, playing on society's ugly notion that "different is disgusting and wrong". Remus himself was targeted as a werewolf.

You know, sad as it is, I'm glad Remus died too, because if he'd survived knowing Tonks had been murdered because of him, it would have killed him anyway!
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4692214)
Remus would have eventually gone back to his family with or without Harry's input - if he had remained in character based on what we learned before (as you said, you couldn't believe he'd do that based on what we'd seen from him in the past and he'd of likely come around to being who he always had been eventually). But Harry I think got him back into shape much quicker - a nice hard shove in the right direction and made him realize that he'd already made his bed and must lie in it.

I think you are right. That's why I called it a mid-life crisis. Lupin is a good bloke - he'd have gone back (with his tail between his legs) in the end.

sweets7 August 5th, 2007 12:36 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by anabel (Post 4692174)
Did anyone else want to punch Lupin in chapter 11? Such great timing for a mid-life crisis! I know that if you have a chronic illness, having a child can bring up issues you'd rather not think about, but I would never have believed Lupin would go as far as to walk out on his wife and unborn child! I'm so glad he listened to Harry and got his act together. I think Lupin was so used to being rejected because of his "furry little problem" and so accustomed to withdrawing in order to protect other people, that he just couldn't accept that Tonks and the baby were better off with him than without him. I don't think he was intentionally being selfish, but he didn't realise how much it was all just about him.

I don't think he had 'left' her in a literal sense, I think he was just looking for a way out, a way to protect her and the baby, from himself and what he was. I mean he must have gone back pretty much straight away because Ron hadn't seen him (when he did a runner) but knew through Bill and Fleur that all was well.

I figure he just thought: hey I am no use to my wife and child, but if I do this, I can help create a better world for them. Perfectly understandable and in line with the way Lupin was. I mean in POA, he is outed as a werewolf, he leaves. At the end of OOTP, Tonks must have started talking about marriage, what does he do, he goes and runs with the wolves and in DH he is faced with impending fatherhood, what does he do, looks for a way out, which in his mind would have been protecting Tonks and his child.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4692214)
I didn't want to punch him. I totally could relate. He thought he had created a baby werewolf who was going to have to live as an outcast and shunned, jobless, friendless and angry his whole life at the man who had done this to him (Remus). Remus was also mortified that his fears with relation to Tonks had been realized. She was now also being shunned by society merely for marrying him.

Remus was correct in a sense. Tonks died at Bella's hand because Voldemort made her the target, playing on society's ugly notion that "different is disgusting and wrong". Remus himself was targeted as a werewolf.

I don't think the baby could ever have been a werewolf: didn't it say in fantastic beasts that you had to be bitten, in JKR's world, to become one. I figure lupin was just freaking out when he said that. He was also convinced that his in - laws hated him, but later in the book we are shown that Andromeda, Tonks and Lupin are on very good terms.

You are right though all those fears and prejudices caused the scene in Grimmauld Place: Lupin finally snapped.

I figure Tonks would have been a target for Bella anyway. Bella would have loved to kill her 'traitor' of a sisters only child. It would have been justice for her.

wickedwickedboy August 5th, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4692289)
I figure he just thought: hey I am no use to my wife and child, but if I do this, I can help create a better world for them. Perfectly understandable and in line with the way Lupin was. I mean in POA, he is outed as a werewolf, he leaves. At the end of OOTP, Tonks must have started talking about marriage, what does he do, he goes and runs with the wolves and in DH he is faced with impending fatherhood, what does he do, looks for a way out, which in his mind would have been protecting Tonks and his child.

Remember Dumbledore asked Lupin to act as a spy among the werewolves, so we can't say that he "ran away" from Tonks to be with the werewolves, he was ordered to do so. In fact, Lupin looked unhappy about having to spy among them because he wasn't making much headway in his conversation with Harry. While he did resist situations that he felt would be dangerous, most of those situations were one in which he would have been happy (marriage, a job, love, friends) - so he didn't want to resist them. He felt he had to for the safety of those around him. Very few people were allowed to get close to him for this reason: Tonks, Harry, the Marauders, Lily, Dumbledore, Kingsley, Bill, Molly, Hermione, Minerva, Arthur, Ron...and maybe a couple of more that I can't think of. And with all of them you can see it took a good amount of time for him to let them into his life.

Like a good hearted man with an infectous disease in our society...he doesn't want to hurt anyone with it, so often we find that type of person keeping to themselves. It is really a shame and I think that was JKR's point. We should reach out because the infected persons are going to have a very hard time reaching out to us. She made Harry (and others) reach out to Lupin in this way and showed that the results can bring happiness to both parties in ways they never expected. We can do that too!

sweets7 August 5th, 2007 3:20 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4692557)
Remember Dumbledore asked Lupin to act as a spy among the werewolves, so we can't say that he "ran away" from Tonks to be with the werewolves, he was ordered to do so.

We have that from Lupin, not Dumbledore, and all he says is that Dumbledore needed a spy and he was a 'ready made' one. I figure Lupin knew that Dumbledore would have liked a spy and volunteered because he feared hurting Tonks, was grieving for Sirius etc. If Harry had said yes to him, he probably would have told Tonks that him going on their mission was needed too, and technically that wouldn't have been a lie. Lupin was pretty damaged by ingrained prejudice. I think this type of thing was a knee jerk reaction though, and he needed people around him to call him on it (Harry in DH, Tonks and Molly in HBP)

hoppitydee August 5th, 2007 9:47 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Your general thoughts on Lupin as a character? How has he grown, changed and matured throughout the books? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What do we know about his relationships to Sirius Black/Fenrir Greyback/Alastor Moody/James Potter/Lily Evans/Peter Pettigrew/Severus Snape/Harry Potter?

I absolutely love[d] the character of Remus Lupin. To me he just seemed to be a great man, kind, humble, even though his low self esteem threw him off sometimes.
His relationships.....
Sirius
I get the feeling they drifted apart just before Voldemorts first downfall [hence Remus being a suspect etc.] They probably became close during OoTP, and were good friends, Remus being the level headed one and Sirius being the opposite--probably similar to their relationship during their school years. I think Sirius' death would have affected him a lot.
Fenrir Greyback
The books don't state specifically when Remus found out it was Fenrir who bit him, but I suspect Fenrir might have been the one who told him. I know Remus was repulsed by Fenrir, and Fenrir probably wasn't too fond of Remus, seeing as they didn't exactly share views. I wish Remus had been the one to finish him off in the end.
Alastor Moody
I assume Remus had a lot of respect for Mad-Eye, but I doubt they were close. Knowing Moody he probably would have started out suspicious of Remus, but they were both in the Order first time around, so they'd go way back.
James Potter
James obviously liked Remus a lot, to become an Animagus for him. From the books it's evident that Remus was close to James, and had a lot of fond memories with him [and Sirius as well]. Again, I get the feeling they drifted apart right before James' death.
Lily Evans
These two would have been very compatible as friends. Remus was always a lot more level headed than James and Sirius, and Lily would have liked that, I think. They were both prefects so they must have had some pleasant chats while patrolling the corridors together. I doubt there was anything romantic there, though.
Peter Pettigrew
As James and Sirius were extremely close, I get the feeling that Remus and Peter were often paired together. Remus doesn't mention Peter a lot, and I think he was always confused as to what went wrong with his ex friend.
Severus Snape
As Remus mentions in HBP, he neither likes or dislikes Severus, but rather he trusts and respects him, especially after he made him the Wolfsbane potion for a year. It's evident that Snape never really had the same respect for Remus, but I like to think they reconciled in the magical afterlife.
Harry Potter Remus was obviously very fond of Harry, and Harry respected and liked Remus. I'm sure Harry will tell his godson what a good man Remus was :)

Lupin is conflicted between his love for Dora and Teddy and the desire to protect them from association with him - does he make the right decision in going back to them? Did he make the right decision marrying her?

He definitley made the right decision to go back, he never should have left. I was very disappointed with the way Remus was portrayed in Deathly Hallows, no justice was done for him at all. I've been considering going to work on my copy of DH with a tub of whiteout :p
Remus and Tonks were my favourite couple so I'm glad they got married...I think he made the right decision...I hate remembering the fact that they died though *looks for whiteout*

Why didnít Lupin try to contact Harry before PoA?
The same reason nobody else did, I guess.

What was Lupinís role in the first war? Did Dumbledore use his special connexions to the werewolves already?
I think he did have something to do with the werewolves, it would explain why he may have drifted apart from his fellow Marauders, and perhaps why he was a suspect.

Did Lupin make the right decision in going to fight at Hogwarts - should he have stayed out of the battle for Teddy's sake?
He certainly made the right decision. He was a member of the Order, and he wouldn't abandon the fight. Of course I wished he had lived so Teddy would know his father, but he still did the right thing.

Ifink2much August 5th, 2007 10:38 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by anabel (Post 4692174)
Did anyone else want to punch Lupin in chapter 11? Such great timing for a mid-life crisis!

Punch Remus!never! I did get a bit annoyed with Harry though.But I know Harry said it out of concern.

About his reaction,do you think Remus actually loved Tonks?I kinda think he didn't.I know I'm very likely the only one who thinks this but I thought I'd ask.

Emperor_Gestahl August 5th, 2007 11:11 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Hell, I wish Harry would have listened to him. Remus was in the right if you ask me.

wickedwickedboy August 5th, 2007 1:12 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4692620)
We have that from Lupin, not Dumbledore, and all he says is that Dumbledore needed a spy and he was a 'ready made' one. I figure Lupin knew that Dumbledore would have liked a spy and volunteered because he feared hurting Tonks, was grieving for Sirius etc. If Harry had said yes to him, he probably would have told Tonks that him going on their mission was needed too, and technically that wouldn't have been a lie. Lupin was pretty damaged by ingrained prejudice. I think this type of thing was a knee jerk reaction though, and he needed people around him to call him on it (Harry in DH, Tonks and Molly in HBP)


Well we all interpret things how we like. However, based on Remus' character, it would not be normal for him to lie to Harry to make himself look good. He constantly put himself down, why would he lie? I do agree he resisted things and damaged in the sense that he refused to accept that anyone could really want to be close to him on the face. But he never ran from duty. DD asked him and many others to do things...we can't assume they were all resisting things in their lives when they complied...it was war time. So I believe he was being truthful. He didn't seek out that job, but I do agree it likely was acceptable on the level that it took him away from Tonks who he didn't want to deal with (causing her to become an outcast). But he also would never turn down work DD asked of him on behalf of the Order. He honored DD above all things and cared for the man as we saw in his reaction to his death. He was not particularly happy about the assignment, that was apparent in his discussion with Harry, but to say he took it on merely to escape Tonks makes it sound like they were not actually in war time, he wasn't really needed for the job and he wasn't as interested in fighting for the good cause as he was about 'relationships' and that does not ring true of his character.

Further, Remus worked for the first Order, fighting away and at that time he had no romantic attachments that we know of. So his willingness to fight for the cause was very apparent. Not to mention he left home to fight for the cause at the end, after he'd accepted and even embraced (desired and wanted) to be with Tonks and Ted and try to do the family thing. He showed a pic of Ted when he arrived at the battle...

sweets7 August 5th, 2007 1:26 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4693471)
Well we all interpret things how we like. However, based on Remus' character, it would not be normal for him to lie to Harry to make himself look good. He constantly put himself down, why would he lie.

He didn't lie, he said Dumbledore needed a spy, but the job probably served that duel purpose of protecting Tonks as well

Of course he was willing to fight; he was in the wrong group if he didn't.

wickedwickedboy August 6th, 2007 12:12 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by sweets7 (Post 4693485)
He didn't lie, he said Dumbledore needed a spy, but the job probably served that duel purpose of protecting Tonks as well

Of course he was willing to fight; he was in the wrong group if he didn't.

LOL...well we just agreed with each other :) I misunderstood you, sorry bout that.

crowheart August 6th, 2007 12:20 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
A question, half-brought up elsewhere but put here on the thread.

What does everyone think Lupin's opinion of Sirius was? We see that Sirius was willing to risk Lupin's sanity by driving a student into where Lupin existed as a werewolf. Had it succeeded, Lupin would probably have felt guilty for the rest of his life. Yet we never see Lupin angry at Sirius for it. Do you think that Lupin actually forgave Sirius, or do you think he just chalked it up to another 'reckless' thing that Sirius did?

wickedwickedboy August 6th, 2007 3:14 am

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by crowheart (Post 4694832)
A question, half-brought up elsewhere but put here on the thread.

What does everyone think Lupin's opinion of Sirius was? We see that Sirius was willing to risk Lupin's sanity by driving a student into where Lupin existed as a werewolf. Had it succeeded, Lupin would probably have felt guilty for the rest of his life. Yet we never see Lupin angry at Sirius for it. Do you think that Lupin actually forgave Sirius, or do you think he just chalked it up to another 'reckless' thing that Sirius did?

They laughed with the carelessness of youth after all of their midnight strolls where Lupin had close calls (in hurting or killing people). Since it was Snape, who they disliked, in the shreiking shack incident, they likely laughed over that event too. Lupin may have made an angry comment to Sirius about the possible reprecussions on himself, but I would say it was laughed about in the end.

When Lupin retells the story he says: 'Sirius thought it would be - er - amusing - to....." and Sirius says Snape deserved it. Lupin didn't scold or reply so I don't think it was that big a deal to him in terms of Sirius. And clearly whatever he felt at the time, he no longer felt when they met again as adults. They were tight buddies again almost immediatly (brotherly hug and also later when Snape tied Remus up and threatened to drag him out, Sirius got steaming mad and started forward - but Snape held up his wand)

Rell August 6th, 2007 6:41 pm

Re: Remus John Lupin: Character Analysis
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wickedwickedboy (Post 4695214)
When Lupin retells the story he says: 'Sirius thought it would be - er - amusing - to....." and Sirius says Snape deserved it. Lupin didn't scold or reply so I don't think it was that big a deal to him in terms of Sirius. And clearly whatever he felt at the time, he no longer felt when they met again as adults. They were tight buddies again almost immediatly (brotherly hug and also later when Snape tied Remus up and threatened to drag him out, Sirius got steaming mad and started forward - but Snape held up his wand)

I think that after all they'd both been through since their last meeting, that old school disagreements and problems just didn't matter anymore.


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:25 am.

Powered by: vBulletin, Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

Original content is Copyright © MMII - MMVIII, CoSForums.com. All Rights Reserved.
Other content (posts, images, etc) is Copyright © its respective owners.