Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Introductory information: Snape is a very controversial character and a lot of fans have very passionate opinions about him, which they are ready to defend at all costs. Unfortunately, this often makes the discussion less than amiable and we had to close Snape threads in the past and turn Legilimency Studies into a HOT ZONE. So fair warning, post according to our guidelines and rules, or go on a very long holiday from the forum. Be advised, this is not an empty threat, this is being enforced!

There is no doubt Snape is a very complex character. He's an awful figure to many, a cruel and vindictive individual without a shred of decency or humanity. To others he's a tragic hero, complicated by a love he couldn't openly express and mourning the loss of his opportunities.

The focus of the reboot threads is going to be on making sure the Snape thread can stay open, as we deal with individuals in the way our new Hot Zone policy dictates & outlines below.


Study Questions

1. After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?
2. Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?
3. To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
4. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
5. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
6. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
7. How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
8. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
9. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
10. Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
11. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
12. Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
13. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
14. If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
15. What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?

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REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray

Snape vs. Marauders rule

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Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I have a question that's been buzzing around in my head since posting on the Pettigrew thread a few days ago (well, several questions, actually):

There only seem to be three students that Severus really seemed to single out for "attention," Harry, Hermione, and Neville.

We know why he bullied Harry -- because he physically looked like James and Severus couldn't put that past behind him and see Harry as a separate person (IMO). But, I keep wondering, why Neville and Hermione?

While posting on the Pettigrew thread we were discussing some parallels and differences in Wormtail and Neville. I've been wondering since then: Did Neville remind Severus of a young Pettigrew? Was Peter the same clumsy, inept student in his first year(s) at Hogwarts, until the Marauders took him under their wings and started tutoring him? Was Severus lashing out at Neville because of this reminder, or was he trying to "toughen him up" so that he wouldn't repeat Pettigrew's mistakes of blindly following someone he thought could protect him?

As for Hermione, she was brilliant. But she was "book smart" and afraid to take chances. Did Severus see in her the potential to be really good if she'd stop being an "insufferable know-it-all" and expand on her book knowledge -- relaxing her tendency to strictly adhere to that knowledge? Did he see a bit of himself in her, and recognizing her abilities, want her to be writing notes in the margins of her own Potions book rather than just following it along?

In CoS, he had to know that someone was mixing polyjuice potion, the stuff was missing and someone had to be using it. Did he suspect Hermione, and the reason he never confronted her or any of the trio was that he was glad to see her putting her talents to use? I'm sure he mixed the potion to change her back from part cat and there were no repercussions from that. I wonder if he just shut up about it and was pleased that she had tried something "out of bounds"?

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?


Partially. Voldemort would have found someone else to tell him the prophesy, so it wasn't as though Snape was the only way

Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?

No... there is so much more I would like tlearn about him. Who was he on his free time? What was he like with his colleagues? Did anything make him happy?

To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

I think his parents and school bulllies are largley to blame. Having spent his life degraded and ridiculed, Snape sought a position of power and fear-based respect. It wasn't the right decision to make, but I believe his character was very much tarnished by his upbringing.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

When we see the extent Voldemort goes to for dominance, I think Snape might have startd to pull back. IHe became a DE mostly out of anger and want of power and revenge, but I don't believe being a DE ran deep through his veins like Voldemort or Bella. I doubt, thoug, that he would have ever have moved on.

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think, like any awkward pre-pubescent boy, Snape was reluctant to approach a confident, beautiful girl. I think he was already falling in love with someone who was a mudblood, so I don't see her being a muggle changing much. He fell in love with Lily, not her magic.


How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

I'd like to think that Lily would see him in a different light, and perhaps fall in love with him. I believe he would have been a kinder teacher and not so dark and brooding. I'd be interested to see what a happy Snape was like...

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?

A true testimony of bravery. I don't know many men that would devote their lives to the cause and redemption as he did. His treatment of Sirius was what I expected, and vis versa. They hated eachother, and adulthood didn't change that.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

His treatment of Neville was pure frusteration and lack of ability to give constructive criticism. As for Harry, not only was he a constant reminder of James, he was also the product of Lily and Jame's love. Harry living is what Lily died for too, so I imagine there was alot of resentment there, even if Harry didn't deserve it.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

Yes. I think he'd devoted his life to protecting Harry, and Snape wanted him to know this. I think he was sorry he had somehwat led Voldemort on the path to Harry's parents as well.

Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?

His extremes. We see him as a pretty cold, sometimes verbally cruel teacher, and we know he's had a dark past. Then we see his deep, eternal love for Lily, and the lengths he goes to to protect her son. He is the deepest shade of grey.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

His bravery, capacity for love, self sacrafice and his friendship with Dumbledore. His weaknesses would be letting others treatment of him innfluence the decisions he made (the bad path he went down), and his treatment of some of his students.

What do you reckon Snape valued most in life

Love. He just wasn't on the recieving end of it.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I find the speculative parallels between Neville and Peter to be dubious, at best. There is nothing I can see that relates Snape's treatment of Neville to some delusion that Neville might turn into Peter Pettigrew Mach II. We don't know if Peter was Pureblood, inept at Potions, or much of anything else that suggests that he is like Neville, in my opinion. Snape never referenced Peter or the Marauders when he bullied or belittled Neville, and I'm not even sure what he would be referencing. I think it more that Snape had no patience for students who weren't perfect, and was in a bad mood and wanted to take it out on someone.

Neither, I'd say. I'm not even sure how the second option makes sense :hmm:? Would he think that Neville-- who I don't think had any contact with Snape before school started-- would blindly follow him for protection and he needed to disuade him from trusting him? Or bullying neville would make him less likely to seek protection? I can't suss that one out.

Again, I don't think so. To me, Snape appears to have taught by rote. I don't see much difference between being expected to parrot the teacher's directions or parroting a book. It seems to me that Snape took a bitter view of anyone who deviated from the instructions he wrote down. I would not say that he was a teacher that encouraged exploration or experimentation. I don't think he cared if his students were brilliant, only that they could do the work exactly as he directed with minimal fuss. I think Hermione quoting books annoyed him because she wasn't quoting him. I think Snape knew that he was brilliant at potions, and wanted the respect and recognition he thought he deserved for that. I don't think he really thought about nurturing young minds.

No, I think Snape just liked to jump to the conclusion that Harry was the ringleader any time it appeared childish bad behavior was afoot. Snape did that with the flying car incident, even though Ron was actually the ringleader and Harry the follower for that escapade. I think Snape discounted Hermione, and her abilities.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

And I'd add Ron, simply because he was hanging out with Harry and not a particularly studious type with a fondness for quidditch (which again might have been reminiscent of Sirius and James to Snape)

As much as I like Snape, I don't believe he was trying to toughen up Neville or help him in any way. He really seems to be using him as a catalyst for his bad mood. My impression is that Neville's fear and clumsiness for potions was something he scorned and was irked by. It takes only little to set off a choleric person, which Snape definitely seems to be outside his spying life.
As for the Pettigrew reminiscence in Snape's eyes - I don't recall now if Pettigrew was particularly awkward/clumsy as student, but maybe there was the fact that both Gryffindors were 'ragtagging' the more popular ones (in his eyes). I don't think that the Peter reminiscence was the main reason why Snape singled Neville out, though.

I don't think Snape's intentions were nice in Hermione's case, either. My impression was that he disliked her know-it-all-ishness from the first lesson on. Truth be told, a teacher myself, I know how annoying this behaviour can be (count in the fact that the rest of the class will likely stop trying if they have such a person in their midst). So in a way, I understand why Hermione infuriates Snape so much; at the same time, that does not condone some of his conduct towards her (the 'no difference' scene, or taking points from Gryffindor whne she cannot contain herself and blurts out the answer)

Again I don't think so. I think he kept silent only because he didn't have enough evidence. He correctly suspected Harry (I guess his 'innocent' face would be easy to read for an experienced teacher, not to mention a legilimens). He'd be more or less sure of the Trio's intent after Hermione appeared in the Infirmary as a half-cat, and after he learned about Crabbe and Goyle's condition (if he ever did). But he never had direct evidence to support his claim.
I definitely don't think he acted out of any noble sentiments towards anyone in the Trio. I'd go as far as to say that my impression of Snape was that he wanted quiet, obedient and studious students, but not such brilliant ones who would present a challenge to himself or be better than him in a subject he excelled in (Potions, Defence Against the Dark Arts). He doesn't seem to me to be the type to wish them success, and Hermione's endeavours seem to me to be triggering a need in him to show everyone who the best expert in the class is (himself). Even at the cost of bringing the person down with nasty remarks. Feeling 'threatened' by a (pre-)teenager is not a mature thing to do, but then, Snape is not a very mature person, mostly.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Firstly I don't think Snape taught by rote and I would be interested to know what brought you to this conclusion.

Secondly there is a vast difference between parrotting from a book and parrotting a teachers directions both in real life and in Harry Potter. We know that while he was still a student Snape was improving the potions recipes as they were in the book, and this highlights the difference. A teacher who expects children to parrot the book - as Umbridge did - does not put any effort into the preparation of the lesson nor expects the pupils to learn anything outside the text of the book concerned. In many ways a teacher who parrot from a book is nothing more than a glorified child minder. A teacher who expects the children to parrot his instructions is teaching the children to make potions accurately using the best recipe available. My son is currently doing Food tech and brings home a list of ingredients he needs each week from the recipe which the teacher has supplied rather than it being from a book and I see Snape's teaching of potins in a similar way. If the children try to do things there own way things are not going to turn out particularly well in both potions and food tech. though mistakes seem to be somewhat more dangerous in potions. So I do not see it as a bad thing that Snape insists that the students do things the way he dictates in his class. The homework that Snape set however shows that he wanted his pupils to understand the effect that different ingredients had in potions, and so have a wider knowledge of what was going on in the cauldron and why certain ingredients were used. As such I do not think that Snape taught by rote.

And rightly so! Any teacher would in a practical subject - particularly one where accidents can be dangerous. I can imagine a chemistry teacher getting very cross if students do not stick to the instructions when conducting experiments.

Again I do not recall any chemistry teachers encouraging exploration or experimentation in practical sessions. You followed instructions. I would say that the same applies to transfiguration which is also a difficult and dangerous subject, and I don't recall any experimentation or exploration in McGonagall's classes either.

I don't see any evidence for this at all. I think he was constantly disappointed by the ineptitude of so many students and the lack of application of most students. He certainly wanted the children to learn and designed his lessons with that aim in mind. Indeed he was a far better teacher than many others we see such as Quirrel, Lockhart, Trelawney and Umbridge.

I think he was rather inclined to believe that Hermione was unlikely to break school rules.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Because Snape writes things out and wants them copied exactly, or else. I don't see much exploration or explanation there. I think it is perfectly possibly to learn to make a potion by rote, so that part works for students good at following directions, but I don't think rote is a way to learn the theory or explore improvements.

Slughorn was Severus's teacher. I don't think Slughorn taught by rote. He seemed very open to creativity. Snape seems to done his experimenting and improvements under Slughorn.

Snape is still teaching by rote-- he's just using his information instead of the official book's. Yes, his recipes are better than the official books. That doesn't stop his method from being rote, though. Unless one direction is proven bette than the other, how is a child to know? The only way would be for a child to experiment, in my opinion--which is something that Snape did not allow in his class as far as I can see. I think testing different recipes to see differnt results would be a great learning experience.

Heh, I guess I know of very different chemistry teachers.

But my point wasn't Follow Directions Bad! Break Directions Good! Or even Rote Bad! Experiment Good! Just that I don't see him encouraging exploration or experimentation, thus the idea that he was trying to break Hermione of rigidityas as put forth by MinervasCat seems out there to me when it appears to me that what he wanted was rigidity from his students, as long as it was adhering to his way of doing things. Hermione may have sounded like she swallowed the textbook, but I think she also demonstrated that she understood what she read. I think she just wasn't good at rewriting the information into another form like some teachers like students to do to prove that they understood. Instead, I think she could prove she understood what she was spouting by her ability to practically apply her book knowledge. I think Snape was irritated when people he didn't like knew things, and irritated when they didn't know things. I think that if he had taken a dislike to Hermione, it really didn't matter what kind of student she was, he was going to treat her however he wanted.

I see evidence for it, but to each there own. :) I think that if "he was constantly disappointed by the ineptitude of so many students and the lack of application of most students" then he really wasn't expecting much other than irritation from his students.

I certainly hope he was better than the likes of Umbridge! I do not set the bar for acceptable teacher behavior or competence so low.

:rotfl: I guess she learned him a lesson! (repeatedly)

I rather think that Snape "decided" what some child was like, and then treated them that way without regard to evidence in support or contrary. I see it with Harry, and Snape's belief that Harry was always the ringleader for troublemaking whether or not he really was. So I can see Snape deciding that Hermione was some unsufferable know-it-all for daring to try to answer his questions in the first class and interfering with his singling out of Harry, and deciding to forevermore treat her accordingly to get back at here. I think that's one thing about Snape, once he decides on a path, it is hard to shake him from his intended goal.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Severus didn't seem to single out Ron in the books, more in the movies. It was Harry, Hermione, and Neville who usually got the brunt of his snark.


I really don't think that all of his jibes at Neville can be blamed on his being in a bad mood most of the time. I'm sure he got frustrated with Neville because he was so inept at potions, and Severus didn't seem to be able to understand that the more he went at him the more nervous and inept Neville seemed to become.

We do know that Pettigrew was not the most talented of students as it took Sirius and James sometime to teach him Animagus transformation even though he was in his Fifth Year. This is what leads me to believe he is way below average in his abilities, not just average or a bit below it, as he would have caught on quicker. Neville learned to cast a corporeal Patronus in his Fifth Year, which was very advanced magic, as well. I see this as another parallel/comparison by Ms. Rowling.

As a class member, Severus saw Pettigrew throw his lot in with the Marauders, who offered him protection. (Then, later he turned on them and joined Voldemort, IMO, for the same reason, IMO, -- protection. (But, Severus wouldn't have known that until after PoA.) I just wondered if he saw Neville becoming part of the Harry/Ron/(and a bit later) Hermione group and would just become a follower, as Pettigrew seems to have done. Did he want Neville to succeed on his own, which is why he discouraged Hermione from helping him?

Having also taught for several years, I can second that. But, I don't think Severus had anything personal against Hermione. I think he wanted her to stop interrupting and shouting out answers, but, I also think he admired her amount of knowledge and was frustrated that she did not take it to another level as he'd done himself (as we see in HBP).

As for the "no difference" scene: there is debate as to whether he meant Hermione's teeth or that she and Crabbe or Goyle (they're almost interchangable) had both cast hexes at each other an both had suffered from the others' hex.

I'd say Hermione turning herself into a part-cat was pretty good evidence she'd been fooling around with something, and Severus knew enough, I'm sure, to realize it was polyjuice potion. He could have turned her, alone, in and she'd have been in trouble for stealing supplies at the very least. But, I think he held back on purpose.

I have to disagree with this. Any good teacher -- which I think Severus was, discounting his personal grudge against Harry and his shortcomings with Neville, only two of hundreds of students he'd taught over the years -- any good teacher not only wants their students to succeed, but wants them to exceed their own accomplishments. That is the mark of a really good teacher: to be able to impart your own knowledge to a student and have them take that and make something even better of it. If teachers only wanted their students to remain at the same level that they (the teachers) are at, then there is no hope for progress or improvement.

Severus did not teach from the book, but from his own lessons. As we see in HBP, he'd taken the book and improved on procedures and instructions. This is what he was handing down to his students, not just "book learning." I think he expected them to move on with that. Look at what the Weasley twins did. All of their jokes and "skivving snack boxes" and such were mostly things they'd learned in Potions and elaborated on.

And, as far as being pains in the neck in class, I'd think if anyone would have had Severus' wrath come down on them or would have had anything bad to say about him it would have been them. I can just imagine what some of their Potions lessons were like.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

In regards to why Snape treated Neville in the awful manner he did, maybe Snape just resented Neville for having not been the child LV intended to kill. I truly think it is a plausible possibility. And we all know Snape wasn't above disliking and acting spitefully toward people, and through no fault of their own. Did Neville's performance in Potions only add fuel to the fire? Sure. But from what we see in canon, we don't really see Snape acting in any different manner towards Neville. He never seems to give the poor kid a chance! So, yeah, I don't think Snape intended his maltreatment of Neville to be some form of guidance to make certain that Neville didn't turn out like Pettigrew. I find that theory to be a bit far-fetched and contrived, just as I feel the notion that Snape didn't have cruel intentions when he made his little comment of, "I see no difference," to Hermione to also be far-fetched. I don't know, but I just don't think Snape was that much of a nice guy. Nor do I think he really cared what kind of person his students generally grew up to be. That's just me though.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Woo, new thread! :clap:

I'd say to a certain extent. Snape gave Voldemort the crucial information that sent him after Harry and endangered the Potters even more in the first place, but Peter Pettigrew made it possible for Voldemort to enter their home with ease. At least, that's how I see it. :)

Definately. :agree: He sinks into the lowest position morally etc and manages to break out of that damaging mould and do his best to make up for all previous decisions that first lead him to such a position. Of course, he hasn't- and no character can, I feel- redeemed himself in absolutely every aspect but I think his redemption and character arc is completely developed.

I think Snape's parents caused Snape's social development to be, to an extent, stunted; that was why, after being relatively isolated as a child, he sought to be in a position of power or be surrounded by powerful people. That could explain a slight part of his attraction to the Dark Arts and Death Eaters. However, I think the decisions Snape made when he was a student at Hogwarts and onwards were entirely his own and he alone was responsible for them.

Overall, I believe yes, he would've moved on, perhaps more for her sake than his in his mind, but there may have been some bitterness and resentment remaining although not nearly as strong as what I think was displayed in canon. Snape had turned to the 'good side' before Lily had died- I think this would remain true if her death did not occur, too. :)

I believe he took so long to approach Lily because he was incredibly withdrawn as a child and not fully developed socially. The memories shown in The Prince's Tale suggest to me that, apart from Lily, he really didn't have much of an experience of interacting with others as his own age.

Initially, I feel that Lily's magical ability made her stand out, in Snape's eyes. That was why I think he approached her; he saw they both had something special in common and he could find a friend in her whom he could talk to about practically anything. His treatment of young Petunia shows he had prejudices towards Muggles but he hardly gives these a moment's thought after he has formed a friendship with Lily.

For me, it's difficult to say about what might've happened if Lily had been a Muggle. I don't think he would have approached her, both due to them no longer having something unique in common and his prejudices towards Muggles but, at the same time, Snape and Lily's friendship would not have survived as long as it did if they both did not like each other as individuals; sharing magical ability alone would not be enough. I think Snape liked and was attracted to Lily's nature very much; if she had approached him as a Muggle, perhaps, over time, he would've dropped his untrue views on Muggles and formed a friendship with her just the same.

Before the lead up to Snape's Worst Memory began, I think they did both work to maintain their friendship. The friendship meant an awful lot to both of them, in my opinion, and they did not want it to be thrown away be something so, in the grand scheme of things, insignificant as House differences. I believe their friendship would have continued despite Lily being in Gryffindor and Snape being in Slytherin had he not chosen to follow the paths of future Death Eaters and call Lily a Mudblood. Of course, that's why, I think, Snape's Worst Memory is what it is- an older Snape, looking back, recognises that the action and mistake he made in that moment was the straw that broke the camel's back regarding his and Lily's friendship.

Just my opinion. :)

I think his life would've been a lot happier, certainly. Personally, I don't see Snape's love for Lily directly affecting his decision to kill Dumbledore- maybe that, among other things, gave him the inner strength to carry it out but, apart from that, Snape's love for Lily doesn't make me see Dumbledore's 'murder' in a different light; it was him secretly working for the Order and Dumbledore that did. :) In my opinion, Snape's treatment of Sirius would've been relatively the same even if Snape hadn't loved Lily.

What we discover in Deathly Hallows makes me see that Snape often had incredibly conflicting emotions regarding Harry and that could'ver caued (partly) his sometimes explosive reactions when it came to him. It doesn't make me view his treatment of Neville any differently, however. :)

I'm sure that previously I have answered this question before with a straightforward 'yes' or 'now' but now, I honestly can't say for certain. I do think he wanted Harry to know his true motives and past etc ("Yes, Potter. That is my job.") and the memories he gives Harry, to me show that he wanted Harry to know him as he was- flaws and all. Perhaps with that come a private want of some form of forgiveness from Harry but I don't really know at this point in time. :)

I haven't really read any of them in detail so I can't comment on this properly. :)

I feel it his because his character, as a whole, is made up of layers upon layers of contradictions. He treats Harry arguably cruelly for most of the series yet goes out of his way to save him, he tells a young Lily being a Muggle born makes no differences yet, when older, he calls her a Mudblood...the examples are quite endless, in my opinion and that is what makes Snape's character so intriguing and fascinating to me. :)

I think his major strength was to keep on working for what was right, even when that came to, as Dumbledore says 'a great personal risk to himself'. Also, in spite of trauma, Voldemort etc, to have a love for someone remain so strong for years. His most major flaw is, in my opinion, is inablity to hold onto often wholly unnecessary grudges. Just my opinion. :)

He's...quite a character. :lol:

Ooh, I love this new question. I think this changed as Snape moved into different 'sections' of his life. As a child, probably magical ability in general- it drew him and Lily together at first and seperated him from his father whom I believe he extremely disliked. The adolescent/young adult (Death Eater) Snape I think valued the idea of power and the ability to command fear and respect from people instantly. The adult Snape, for me, most likely valued determination- a trait I believe he grudgingly found and admired in Harry.

All answers are just my own opinion and interpretation. :)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

THe only time we see him write something out and want it copied exactly is when he writes out the instructions for potions. As I have said this would have been a necessity in much the same way as when in real life pupils are writing out the insructions for a science experiment. He doesn't teach the theory in this way. His classes usually involve the teaching of the theory and explanations first followed by the instructions being put on the board. I'd say this compares with a science lesson and see absolutely nothing wrong with it.

Slughorn was using the same text book for Harry as he did for Severus and told his pupils to work straight from the book - a book which Snape as a pupil sought to improve. I don't think this shows that Slughorn was the better teacher. On the contrary it shows that he was unaware that there were better ways to make the potions than those given in the books, and was apparently sufficiently unaware of what his students were doing in class not to notice when one of them did something in a different way. Severus however did notice when his students did something differently and was often able to tell exactly what they had done, which implies me that he had a very wide knowledge and understanding of the subject.

Teaching by rote is getting pupils to learn something off by heart, for example as Umbridge did when she was getting the class to copy out chapters from a book. We never see Snape do this. Putting instructions on a board does not equate to teaching by rote.

I remember getting screamed at by a chemistry teacher in A level chemistry practical for not taking sufficient care with an extremely strong alkali solution. :scared:


Well like I said exploration and experimentation can be dangerous in practical classes and certainly Snape didn't encourage it then. However I do think that he encouraged the students to think around the subject so that they understood the principals involved in potion making.

Exactly! IMO Snape hated teaching, and hated the students - some more than others. But he said he would do "anything"...

Quite!

Yes I am inclined to agree with you - especially as regarding Hermione. It is ironic that someone who changed so radically does not recogniose change in others.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I get the feeling that Slughorn taught more by rote than Severus did. Mainly because, on the first day of class, the students are pretty much just left with their textbooks to whip up a Draught of Living Death. He doesn't mention any improvements on the potion such as those noted by Snape in Harry's potion book. Why is that? In Snape's class the students follow instructions he's put on the board-a vast improvement over the books apparently.

Definitely!

I think if he felt threatened or didn't want his students to succeed, he would have just let them struggle with the textbooks (and the included errors) on their own. The fact that he gets angry with them when they mess up shows that he does care on some level or all he would have to do is sit at his desk and ignore them. I'm sure most of us have had a "teacher" like that at some point.

One of Snape's biggest flaws is impatience. That, coupled with his penchant for sarcasm, and he comes off as a bully.

I think the reason he goes after Neville is because the boy is a scatterbrain and puts others in danger because he doesn't concentrate on what he's doing. I believe Severus has difficulty understanding this trait in Neville for two reasons: 1) because Snape himself has a prodigious, natural talent for focusing and 2) because of his family background and subsequent low self-esteem, he doesn't realize how talented he really is and therefore thinks everyone has that capability to the same degree he does, if they would only apply themselves. Hence his impatience with Neville.

As for Hermione, I think he recognizes her quick intelligence and grasp of his instruction (her grades in his class prove that), he just can't tolerate her desire to flaunt her knowledge and her interruptions in class. Which is why I think he lets her finish the one class with those hexed, overgrown teeth. Bet she didn't say a word the rest of that period because she couldn't! Ah-peace at last!

Completely agree! I don't recall any other class "doubling" up, but we hear the students having Double Potions quite often. I think this is probably a lecture section followed by a practical lab. Chemistry instructors (and I've had several) display nearly a Jekyll and Hyde personality when going from the lecture classroom to the lab. This is dangerous stuff. Even more so than Transfiguration where students work on individual, inanimate objects, at least to start with. Messing up in Potions can take out the entire class which Neville nearly accomplished.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Stunning. :)

1. After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?
   
   Substantially, but certainly not exclusively. The Potters were known resisters and would have been targets nonetheless, but after Snape told Voldemort what he had heard of the prophecy, the risk was elevated for both the Potters and the Longbottoms. I suppose it's possible that Voldemort could have heard the prophecy through some other channel, but I'm not sure I see how: Trelawney doesn't seem to hear her own prophecies, and Dumbledore wasn't telling. Would Voldemort have even known there was a prophecy to hear at all?
   
   Of course, Voldemort had to actually kill the Potters, but Snape knew he was capable of that, and told him anyway.
   
   
2. Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?
   
   Essentially, yes. We've lost no plot because of Snape's death; his redemption was a fitting capstone on his arc. We feel saddened by his death, but I think that's because he died just as we were really learning about him, not because we were really left hanging, as readers.
   
   
3. To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
   
   We don't really get a good sense of that. We see snippets of a mistreated youth, but we don't really know how much of that is his perception, and at any rate, we only get his side of things. Maybe he was prone to feeling persecuted as a youth. I think it's a bit dangerous to speculate too actively on something we see so little of.
   
   
4. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
   
   It's conceivable. A lot depends on the manner in which she avoided dying. We might imagine that if Lily had meekly stepped aside after Voldemort told her to, Snape would have gone to the Potter house to look for her. He'd find her devastated and probably guilt-ridden (for not having saved Harry), and that might have turned him to the good side.
   
   On the other hand, if the Potters had fled the country and were living a life on the run, Snape might well have continued merrily with the Death Eaters for some time.
   
   
5. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
   
   I doubt it. His own sense of value was tightly wound up in his magical abilities, and I don't think he would have been fascinated for very long with a Muggle girl, even a particularly pretty one. Harry had the sense that Snape had been planning the first encounter for some time, and I think that's likely; he seemed to view personal interactions as chemical reactions and often appeared baffled when the initial conditions failed to produce the expected results. I think he planned in secret for that long only because she was magical.
   
   As for his reluctance, I think it's because he had put her on some kind of pedestal from nearly the moment he saw her, and it is certainly difficult for a boy to approach a girl when he does that. (I speak from no personal experience, to be sure.) I suspect there's a subconscious recognition and fear that something won't turn out right--whether it's rejection, or just the girl turning out not to be as wonderful as he had imagined. In Snape's case, it wasn't outright rejection, but it wasn't much better, so I think his fears were largely realized.
   
   
6. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
   
   Snape and Lily's friendship was effected before they even left for Hogwarts.
   
   Oh, you mean affected. :p Well, it was certainly affected by the presence of a bunch of teenage boy wizards. Back at home, Snape had Lily, essentially, all to himself. There was no competition to speak of, as far as we can tell. Once on the train for Hogwarts, and certainly at Hogwarts itself, there were dozens or hundreds of other boys to compete for Lily's attention. (Numbers were never Rowling's strong point.) That would have threatened Snape. What's more, because Snape had put Lily up on this pedestal, there was never any question of any competition for him. Even if by some chance he loosened up enough to attract anyone else, they could never have held any interest for him.
   
   We get very little about Snape and Lily's years at Hogwarts, but I think it's likely that he spent the first few years scrupulously careful not to make any explicit confession of affection (for rejection might mean losing her friendship, and infatuation never dares that, whereas true love would recognize that the friendship wouldn't end just because the love wasn't reciprocated). He might be dismissive of practically anyone else, especially those who were weak, magically, but didn't do the same to Lily. For a while, she might be flattered, and OK with that, but eventually, she did seem to question it, and when it did come out ("Snape's Worst Memory"), her response was swift and decisive.
   
   
7. How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
   
   I don't know. Again, it would have depended a lot on how he managed to do so. If he had cast his lot with the Order, that would, I think, have mattered a lot. It would have signified a rejection of the Death Eaters and their anti-Muggle prejudices, and that would have made him more socially digestible. It would not have exactly made him a man about town, exactly, because he seems to have eschewed that sort of thing, but he could have ended up--after the War, if Voldemort were defeated--as a respected, if somewhat stern, academic. In other words, we readers would have been robbed of a lot of drama and biting wit!
   
   On the other hand, it's possible he could have repaired their friendship without actually joining the Order. He could simply have left them (I think at a minimum, that was necessary for reparation) without fighting against them, but actually, I think that would have left him rather on his own. "No one, no one, stops being a Death Eater." There would always be that spectre of relapse hanging over him.
   
   
8. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
   
   Even as I was reading Half-Blood Prince, I got the sense that there was more to the killing of Dumbledore than met the reader's eye. I couldn't possibly have predicted the exact way it turned out, but since I was convinced that Snape wasn't evil (for what were essentially external reasons--from a plot perspective, it made him redundant), it stood to reason that there were sound, non-evil reasons for Dumbledore to die. So the revelations in "The Prince's Tale" didn't greatly affect my perception of that killing.
   
   His treatment of Sirius is not much different. I'm not sure it has a lot directly to do with Lily; I think it had more to do with the interactions between him and the Marauders. (I suppose I'm going to have to step rather gingerly here...) I think it does add a bit of extra pungency to the way I imagine his perception of Sirius, who was (I think?) best man at the wedding. But it's just that--added flavor, rather than a completely different entree.
   
   
9. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
   
   Neville, hardly at all. I don't see how Neville warranted anything like the rather brusque way he was treated by Snape.
   
   For that matter, Harry didn't warrant it either, but one can at least see in his case how it might be natural for someone with Snape's disposition. He looked like his father, and as many other people might in his situation, Snape saw what he expected to see, and that's all. We knew that Snape didn't like James; all Deathly Hallows provides, really, is the background story on why.
   
   
10. Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
    
    Not forgiveness, I don't think. He probably wanted Harry's understanding, because I think he recognized Harry despised him, and it likely did bother him that much of that despisal was predicated on a faulty understanding of Snape (which was dictated by Snape's role as protector) and of James (which came about because James's friends were enormously loyal to the memory of a murdered friend). I think, now that I've had some time to reflect on it, it's fairly telling that of the memories that Snape provides Harry in "The Prince's Tale," not one really shows James in a particularly bad light. He teases Snape on the Express, but that's certainly no worse than what he knows Harry had already seen in the Pensieve.
    
    
11. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
    
    More or less. It's evident that she views Snape as deeply flawed but sympathetic, and I tend to agree with that. It's certainly a more nuanced perspective than many I see elsewhere (Snape's a pretty divisive guy, after all), and I'd expect that from the character's creator.
    
    
12. Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
    
    Mostly that we don't see his true motivations until the very end. We see very little in the story itself that demands that he turn out essentially on the side of the good; as I said, I think that's dictated only by external considerations. And people do tend to pick sides. So it's only natural that someone who was ambiguous for so long would have become a lightning rod for controversial discussion.
    
    
13. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
    
    Actually, I prefer to think of his major characteristics; whether we view them as strengths or flaws says more about us than it does about him. For instance, he could clearly love exclusively--some would say too exclusively. But rather than make value judgments about whether it's good to love that exclusively, I think it's better to point out what that exclusiveness led to. It led to, among other things, his hatred of James, his consequent treatment of Harry, his defection from Voldemort, his protection of Harry, etc. How one sees all of these different things has a lot to do with whether we see that as a strength or a flaw, so I think that discussion doesn't particularly illuminate Snape.
    
    Snape was also an extraordinary tactician. He was an exceptionally skilled wizard--possibly second to Dumbledore at Hogwarts. Together, all this permitted him to act as a redoubled agent in a way that no other character in the story could, in my opinion. On the other hand, it also meant that he had trouble working his way out of petty skirmishes. If you're a good verbal fencer (and I don't think there's anyone out there who doubts that Snape was one of those), you're less likely to try to stop fencing with someone, even if in the long run, you're better off doing so.
    
    
14. If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
    
    I'd tell them Snape's unpleasantness to you, and at the same time his dedication to you, were in direct proportion to his obligation to you.
    
    
15. What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?
    
    In the concrete, Lily. In the abstract, responsibility.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

*SQUEEEE* New thread! :love:

I want a pony too

1. After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?

I think he's responsible for what he did: telling Voldemort of the prophecy, knowing the risk to the person it referred to.

2. Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?

Well, there's a lot that remains unanswered, but all in all, there isn't much else he can do, since he's dead.
(Or, as I like to imagine, took healing potions and escaped to a remote island, where he soaks up the sun's rays, vegges out in a nice lovely seaside villa, and lives happily ever after.)

7. How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

Who knows? I think that if their friendship had survived beyond Hogwarts, I think he'd have eventually told her how he felt. No longer running the risk of being attacked would probably have allowed him to feel he could risk that vulnerability. But there are those additional issues of how, why, and when Lily fell in love with James and whether or not Severus and Lily remaining friends would have had any impact on his decision to join the DEs.

This last question I can see many different outcomes for: Severus would no longer be bunking with Mulciber et al., but would likely continue to be welcomed within their circle. Would this distance affect how those friendships played out? Would Lily's continued presence change things? I see Severus walking a very thin line between the two friendships, hoping that he could balance both. The problem is, he couldn't do this forever. Whether it was in 5th year or sometime after graduation, he had to give someone up. I would bet that in whatever hypothetical post-graduation scenario could be cooked up, the side he would eventually fall into would be the one he spent the most time with.

Lily's feelings for James have a lot to do with her character, but are also an important in that they could influence Severus as well. I see Lily as being slightly attracted to/interested in James in 5th year, possibly as a result of the Werewolf Incident. This could only amount to a crush and fade, or it could develop into something deeper and be irreparable. I think the dividing factor would be what exactly caused this possible change in James Sirius was talking about, and was it dependent on Lily and Severus' friendship? We have no information on this, so I don't think I can make a call on it.
However, I would say that if Lily did marry James and remained Severus' friend, I think he would distrust and severely dislike James, but put up with it. His reaction to James in canon I, to an extent, attribute to the SK switch and its consequences. If Lily hadn't married James, then (as I said earlier) Severus would probably have revealed his feelings. Whether or not Lily would return them is a whole 'nother essay. :rotfl:

15. What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?

Interesting question. I think there are two ways to look at this. There are the things that he desired but rarely expressed or chose to acknowledge, like the need for acceptance, love, and acknowledgment, and there are the things he overtly valued, like intelligence, practicality, efficiency, and straightforwardness. I think he valued all these things, but labeled some as weaknesses because, while they're necessary to all human beings, his own experiences with them were often painful, disappointing, or just plain not there. Not to mention they were very dangerous things for a spy in his position.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

That would explain why his portrait doesn't show up in the Headmaster's office! I like it. Hope he developed a potion with an SPF of 50!

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I've often wondered that, too - perhaps he resents Neville's existence because he knows that if Voldemort had gone after Neville, then Lily would still be alive. (Although, in fairness, he does try to stop Crabbe or Goyle from hurting Neville too much in Umbridge's office at the end of OotP, so - as with Harry - despite his resentment of him, he "doesn't want him dead" or seriously hurt).

The other possibility which has occurred to me is that deep down he feels guilty because he knows that by passing the prophecy to Voldemort he betrayed Neville, as well as Harry, and he can't cope with the guilt, so he gets angry with the person he knows he has wronged, because hatred is easier to deal with than guilt. Resenting people that make him feel guilty does seem to me to be one of Snape's characteristics.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Maybe it's just as simple as Neville being a totally inept potions student, blowing up or melting several cauldrons, and trying Professor Snape's patience much the same as he tried Professor McGonagall's. It could be any number of reasons.

I really don't see Severus resenting Neville for not being "The Chosen One." Unless Severus looked up his date of birth, in particular, he wouldn't even have known when Neville was born. I don't think many teachers actually look that deeply into their students' personal information without a specific reason.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I have always thought that Snape's frustration and impatience with Neville resulted from the reason Snape stated - i.e., that (from Snape's perspective) nothing seemed to "penetrate" Neville's "thick skull." And speaking as someone who melted more than my fair share of cauldrons when I first started potions :lol:, I fully expect that Snape would have treated me in exactly the same way that he treated Neville. :elaugh:

At any rate, so far as I can recall from the text, neither Snape nor any other character ever mentions - or hints at - the prophecy as a motivation for Snape's reaction to Neville. So I'm going with Neville's blowing up cauldrons and causing toxic hazards as the motivation. ;)

And lest my comment be understood as "blaming Neville," let me add that expressing impatience and frustration as intensely and irritably as Snape does in front of the student is not warranted.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Maybe not, but I'm assuming that, during his time in the DEs, the Longbottom family would have been well on his radar and I'm also guessing that, around the time that he learnt that Voldemort was convinced the Prophecy referred to Lily's child, he may have desperately cast about for other Order members who had had a child around the same time, in the hope of persuading Voldemort that the Prophecy actually referred to someone else. I get the impression that Snape would have tried any tactic he could to try to save Lily at that time. My assumption is that he learnt of Neville's birth back then, not later when Neville showed up at Hogwarts. I know this is highly speculative, though.

As to my other theory - that Snape's anger towards Neville is displaced guilt - that doesn't even have to relate to the Prophecy. As a former DE who deeply regrets his past (as I firmly believe he does - I think his reform is total), Snape would have had reason to feel guilty about any victims of the DEs, even those whose suffering he wasn't personally responsible for. I'm assuming that all Neville's teachers would have been told about his tragic family background, even if Snape didn't already know about the Longbottoms' fate through his DE contacts back at the time it happened. IMO Snape must have known that the organisation he was once a member of had tortured Neville's parents to madness and left him effectively an orphan with a deeply traumatic past.

It seems to me more than a coincidence that most of the people Snape most resents are the people he has most reason to feel guilty towards. I've often wondered if his hatred of James and Harry is as much informed by his guilt for his part in James's death as it is by the history between him and James as schoolboys and his jealousy over Lily.

We also know that Snape hated James even more after he saved his life, so there is some evidence that Snape can't cope with being in other people's debt, and I think this suggests he would not be good at handling guilt. (He wouldn't be the only one, either - at the end of OotP Harry tries to cope with his own guilt over Sirius's death by blaming and hating Snape. What I am suggesting is Snape doing a similar thing re Neville)

That's why I think that Snape's resentment and clinging to grudges may be a defence mechanism, a way of holding back the guilt which would overwhelm him and make it impossible to function effectively in the war against Voldemort if he ever confronted it. It's just a nebulous theory, though - I know that any evidence for it is circumstantial, at best.

No, I accept that it could simply be the reason he states - his frustration at Neville's clumsiness. He does strike me as being the kind of teacher who loves his subject more than teaching his subject and would not have a lot of patience with those who don't get it.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Nothing would surprise me about Snape anymore. He is a deep, complex character and a few years ago if someone told me Dumbledore wanted Snape to kill him I would have told them they were loonier than Luna. His cold treatment of Neville could very well stem from guilt or resentment.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Yay new version! :clap:

I think Snape was not responsible at all for what happened to the Potters. What happened to the Potters had IMO nothing to do with Snape. What Snape was responsible for and had to repent and seek remorse for was for his uncaring/unthinking action of taking what he heard of the Prophecy to Voldemort, knowing that his action would mean the very possible death of a baby and it's family in my opinion.

With respect to the Potters deaths, what I would like to know is this - to what extent is and can a man be blamed when he came well in time to ensure the Potters survival?

Had Snape come after the Potters died, then I have no doubt he would be directly responsible for their deaths as much as Peter and Voldemort. But, Snape came in time to warn the Potters through Dumbledore of Voldemort's intention and thereby I would like to know, whether a man can be blamed for an action for which he has already carried out other acts to nullify/rectify/undo the original act. Because that's what I think Snape is being held responsible for.

Assuming the Potters went with Dumbledore as per Dumbledore's advice and had lived and survived the war, safe under the Fidelus charm, because of Snape's information to Dumbledore on the hill, would Snape still be blamed? He is brought in as culpable because the Potters died. But IMO the Potters did not die because of Snape. They died because they were betrayed by Peter and killed by Voldemort. Snape's information which in other circumstances would have saved them, did not - but that was not because of Snape, but because of their choices and Voldemort and Peter's actions. So how much should one blame him for the Potters deaths? IMO not at all. I think Snape was culpable for taking the Prophecy to Voldemort; not for the Potters deaths.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I agree with that. I was writing the above with the remarks about Ron's apparating skills in my head. That there was, to me, a backlash for not only the wording, but also standing up for Harry and hanging out with him. (not sure if Snape would backlash like that at let's say Seamus or Dean if they did the same)

Or just didn't care. But I agree that the 'other child in the Prophecy' could make Snape resentful of Neville as well. If Snape knew that Voldemort was after the Potters, he could also have known about the other potential victims (I can well imagine him doing a private research on July-born children to see in how much danger Lily's family actually was)

As for the Pettigrew-Neville thing, I don't really see Snape perceiving many similarities between them. It doesn't say if Pettigrew was clumsy, plus Neville at least excelled in Herbology (which Sprout could have well mentioned in the teachers' lounge). Also, Snape never saw Neville taking part in bullying a fellow-student (or eagerly watching it), so I guess he could have suspected that Neville was not that sort of person.


I don't know. Not that I have any evidence at hand as it's just my impression, but Snape strikes me as kind of jealous if someone is *too* good for his liking n something he specializes in.
I chose a wrong wording saying he didn't want his students to succeed; what I had in mind was that he wanted to cram the subjects into their heads so they understand them (I specifically appreciate the bits on what is useful and why in his classes), and in that sense, I'd call him a good teacher (meaning sans the picking on students). But for some reason, I can't see him wishing his students to become the same nerdy prodigys he had been himself. (it strikes me as kind of ironic that at one point, he's said to have been a know-it-all child himself, sucking up to his teachers. Either that, or it was just a bad translation.)

From the contextual point of view, I can't see his remark referring to the latter.


On the other hand, perhaps Hermione's cat-visage could also be a result of an attempted animagus transformation (idea so not mine, I read it in a fanfic). So I believe he was holding back for lack of evidence, combined with that he didn't resent Hermione as much as Harry IMO.


Yes, like I said before, that was wrong wording on my side. I believe he was holding his students up to his high standards, prodding them to live up to them. The students' motivation (him never praising Hermione, favoritism of Slytherins) and general conduct is another matter.
I'd only add that the grudges against Harry and Neville are only the ones we know of, there might have been others during the years; I believe there was a reason why Snape's conduct was somewhat ill-famous among the student body.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I never considered this before, but I can agree with it for the most part.

Emotional pain is a common, core emotion, and people handle it differently. When Snape hurts, he most often lashes out in snark, and occasional angry outbursts, I think. Expressing anger is much easier than confronting painful emotions.

During SWM, he's feeling everything from embarrassment to frustration, and he lashes out at Lily.

When he catches Harry in his Pensive, his response to the pain is to throw a jar over Harry's head.

He felt guilty when he could not save DD from the Horcrux ring, and thus had no problem raising the required anger to AK DD when it was required.

Harry brings back the pain he associates with James, and the guilt over carrying the prophecy to Voldemort, and Lily's death, and thus he lashes out at Harry.

He also feels guilty in regards to Neville and Neville's parents, and lashes out at him for the same reason.

I'm convinced Hermione reminds him of something he finds painful. I think she reminds him of himself and his initial enthusiasm when he arrived at Hogwarts, and he unconsciously resents seeing it and tries to smash it, since it was smashed out of him.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I'm not sure why Severus should feel guilty about Neville's parents. Bella crucioed them trying to find out what happened to Voldemort, well after Severus had gone over to the good side. He had nothing to do with what happened to them.

Yes, he does lash out in anger. IMO, he wasn't taught any differently. That may be all he saw growing up, and habits we learn as children are the worst ones to try to break. He lashes out at Dumbledore for not coming to him sooner with his cursed hand, he lashes out at Harry for pensieve-diving into his private memories. But, I don't see anything involved with the prophecy for him to lash at at Neville for. Again, I don't think we're shown anywhere that he even knew when Neville's birthday was.

Since we don't see him in the same situation with Dean or Seamus, I'm not sure what he would have said to them. I'll have to look up that incident before replying more in depth.


I don't know where/how he'd have done that research, but, I guess it's possible. It's still speculation, as we don't read anything about him knowing there was another child who could have been "The Chosen One."

Severus knew Pettigrew when they were both First Years. My questions referred to that period, when he first met Peter -- did Neville possibly remind him of Pettigrew as a brand new Hogwarts' student, and could he have either been resentful toward him for that resemblence since Peter later became a member of the Marauders and seeming to enjoy his (Severus') humiliation at their hands so much?

Peter and Neville strike me as another of JKR's parallels, where she shows us two very similar characters who end up differently in the end because of the choices they made along the way. That's why I wondered if Neville reminded him of a very young Pettigrew.


Could you provide a reference to Severus' being a "know-it-all" and "sucking up" to any of his teachers, please. I don't remember that.



My perception is that it could mean either. I think he meant a bit of both.


Severus was a Potions' Master and I strongly believe he could tell the difference in a failed Animagi transformation and a flubbed polyjuice potion.


He never praised Hermione, IMO, because she kept jumping in and trying to answer everything. If he praised her it would have only reinforced that. A student like Hermione can have a very negative effect on a class. It makes others hesitant to answer because they don't have the chance, or because they're afraid they have the wrong answer and they're sure Hermione knows it so they'll look stupid, or, why answer if you know Hermione's going to answer it anyway. She was brilliant, and is one of my favorite characters, but she was a pain in the neck as a classroom student.

When Harry asks Percy who the black-haired professor is, Percy tells him. The only reference he makes other than that is that Snape wanted Quirrel's job, the DADA position. He doesn't say anything negative about him or tell Harry to watch out for him as he is especially nasty.

The Weasley twins are two years older than Ron and, if anyone would have had a run-in with Prof. Snape, I'd say it would have been them. They were legend among the teachers for their pranks and were working on all kinds of things to help students get out of class, or pull pranks on other students. It seems many of their items were based on potions, and, as I said previously, I can just imagine what a Potions' lesson with them must have been like. But, we don't read about them warning Ron or Harry about Severus or any dire consequences that might befall them if the mess up in his class.

It seems to me that most of the students who disliked Severus were in Harry's class of Gryffindors, and disliked him because of the way he treated Harry.

As for "favoring Slytherins," I don't see that he favored them any more that the other Heads of Houses favored their's. He punished Slytherins with detention, as we read of Crabbe and Goyle serving detention. He didn't give them any extra points in class that weren't earned. He didn't take undue amounts of points off for Gryffindors misbehavior, and we don't see any Slytherins misbehaving in his class, so I don't know what points he'd have taken off for their actions.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I definitely agree with you about the reasons Snape lashed out - I think he learned it from his father and while growing up wasn't shown any other ways of coping (except perhaps by hiding in a corner and hoping to be ignored, and i think he used that sometimes as well when he was younger).

Snape wanted to save Lily. I suspect he knew that begging Voldy for Lily's life probably wasn't going to work (he went to Dumbledore for help for that very reason, I think), and it wouldn't be his first choice. It isn't canon, but my guess is that he found out if it were possible the prophecy could possibly refer to another child, and attempted to get Voldemort to target that child and family instead.

I don't think he blamed himself for the Longbottoms being crucioed into madness, but I do think later on he felt guilt for wanting them, along with Neville, to have been the targets instead of Lily, and I think he would have felt that way whether he actually asked Voldemort to target them instead or not.

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I think if Severus had been aware of the Longbottom's son and had made any overt moves to send Voldemort in that direction something would have been included about it in the books somewhere. But, I don't remember any references to it. That's not to say it didn't happen. I just think it would have been mentioned that he tried to divert Voldemort's attention to another family.

What we do see is him going to Voldemort to beg for Lily's life. IMO, he knew it was no good to ask for the child to be spared, as he was the "Chosen One" who would vanquish Voldmort. He probably didn't care about James. So, he tried to bargain for Lily.

But, also knowing that Voldemort wasn't the most reliable individual, even if he gave his word, Severus went to the only person he knew who was more powerful than Voldemort: Dumbledore. He knew he could trust Dumbledore and that Dumbledore would do what he could to protect Lily. That he begged only for her safety, I think was just human nature: she was the one he loved, she was the one who came to mind when he was asking, she was the one he was willing to risk his life and his freedom for. And, he did seem to realize, after Dumbledore's extremely stern admonishment, how terrible it was to not include her family, so he did. And he promised "anything" for their safety, a promise he kept for the rest of his life.

The more I look at the different posts here the more I think that his picking on Neville and Hermione was due to their actions in his classroom and nothing else. Each frustrated him to his absolute limits in their own way, and, the tactics that he used, which may have worked with similar students in his ten years of teaching to that point, didn't work with them. So, as was his unfortunate manner, he lashed out at them in his frustration. It wasn't right to do, but I can see how it could happen.

It's funny, but there is an interview with Lily Rabe who's in the play "Seminar" with Mr. Rickman. She talks about a dance teacher she had and how mean he was and how he made her cry all the time. "He made everybody cry all the time..." she says, but she adds he was the best teacher she ever had and she learned so much from him. It made me think about Severus and his stern manner. We never hear anything from Neville or Hermione later about what they thought, looking back on their years with Snape -- whether they considered that he'd had any positive impact on their lives or not. That's something that would be interesting to know.

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Hmmm....I'll have to do some reading for a more complete reply here, but just because we see Crabbe & Goyle in detention does not mean that Snape was the teacher who put them there; it could have been several others. As far as Slytherins not misbehaving....the one example that stands out is Malfoy when he & Harry cursed each other but others got it instead (Hermione's teeth episode). As I recall, Snape did nothing at all to Draco for punishment there.

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I usually lurk on this thread. It’s fascinating to me to read everyone’s thoughts on Snape, yet I’m reluctant to chime in because he’s so polarizing. I often find that everyone argues about him as if they can change someone’s opinion of him… which will never happen. Yet, here I go, ready to chime in… These are just my views and opinions of the man ;)

1. After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?

It’s hard to point blame because in the end, it was Voldemort who killed Lily and James and tried to kill Harry. Yet, if Trelawny never made the prophecy, had Severus never heard and reported said prophecy, things would have turned out differently. Then there’s Pettigrew who sold out the Potters to Voldemort and the Potters themselves for trusting him in the first place. It’s hard to blame their deaths on any one person. A lot of events fell into place to bring about their demise, but yes, Snape is partially responsible for setting events in motion.

2. Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?

Absolutely. I would LOVE more information on him, but for a secondary character, his arc is very complete. After all, the books are titled “Harry Potter.” I was very satisfied with the information we were given in the end. “The Prince’s Tale” chapter answered all my questions. Of course, I have my fingers crossed that Pottermore gives us more!

3. To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

This is hard to answer. I don’t think we got enough information about his home life in canon to point fingers. Yes, children often mirror their parents actions when they grow up, but we don’t know exactly how he was treated. We get the feeling that he was neglected, that his father is an unpleasant man, enough so that Severus embraces his mother’s maiden name, but there’s not a lot of explanation. I think he met Lily at a young enough age that he could allow her influence to shape his own actions and personality, yet he still turned on her and in the end, lost her. IMO, Losing her probably made him more bitter and introverted than his parents ever did. Add in the torment of the Marauders, and much of his childhood was unpleasant. I also think there was a lot of self-loathing on his part. In the end, once he grew up, he needed to be responsible for his own actions, as all adults do. After all, he spent 10 months of his life for seven years at Hogwarts, away from his parents. How much influence could they have had on him then?

4. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I would like to think that Snape could have moved on had Lily not died. In my opinion, it was not his love for her alone that made him switch sides, but his intense guilt and remorse over his involvement in her death. Had that guilt not been hanging over his head every day, his love may have waned and he may have been able to have a real life for himself, possibly even found love with someone else. (If he could find someone as tolerant of his personality as Lily was, lol.) Lily’s situation with Voldemort was the catalyst for Snape’s change to the good side, so it’s hard to speculate about the “what ifs.” I would like to think that something would have made his conscience step up, but I’m not so sure. He seemed to long to feel accepted by someone, and as a Death Eater, he was a part of something. Perhaps having to fight against Lily would have made him rethink his alliances, but we’ll never know.


5. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

Simple, Severus was shy, embarrassed by his appearance and probably felt inferior compared to Lily. Insecure children don’t typically approach other children for fear of rejection. And no, had Lily not been magical, Snape wouldn’t have paid her a bit of attention. I believe it was that common bond of magic that did finally give him the courage to speak to her. She was like him and he was different. It brings up my belief that he longs to fit in somewhere and the similarity with Lily gives him hope of that.

6. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

They must have worked to maintain that relationship if it survived until fifth year. Of course, the house system would have had to put strain to their friendship. I’m sure their housemates would throw jabs at each of them for being seen with the other.

7. How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

I think in order to save their friendship he would have had to completely turn away from the dark arts. He would have had to give up his only other friends because of their reputations. Then his entire house would have turned on him for walking away from their beliefs. I think this would have been very hard for Severus. He appeared to be quite selfish as a teen. He wanted to have his cake and eat it too, so to speak. He didn’t want to have to give up the dark arts or Lily, but he never realized that he would never be allowed to have both in his life. Had he managed to walk away from the dark side and really show Lily he had changed, his entire life would have been different. It’s much like that theory that if you kill a butterfly in the past, it causes a ripple effect that can change the world. Had he maintained their friendship, he wouldn’t have become a death eater, wouldn’t overhear the prophecy, Voldemort wouldn’t go after the Potters, and Snape wouldn’t give up his entire life to protect Harry and be a spy. Furthermore, romance MAY have developed between himself and Lily, thus giving him what he’d always dreamed of having. Then of course, we’d have no Harry and no books about him. I think Snape’s tragic life is for the best! :D

8. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?

I had a feeling that he only killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore had asked him to, so I wasn’t surprised when I read that revelation. Therefore, my view there didn’t change at all. I always trusted that he was ultimately acting for the greater good. I just wasn’t sure why or how. As for his treatment of Sirius, both of them were immature babies who couldn’t get past what they did to each other in school. They were so blinded by their mutual hatred that they couldn’t see that their ultimate goals were the same. Severus’ love for Lily doesn‘t change my view on this. (I always remark about how my two favorite characters hate each other, lol.)

9. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

This is hard. On one hand, an adult shouldn’t treat any child the way Snape treated Harry and Neville. He was their teacher and they should have felt safe and secure in his presence, not threatened. The atmosphere in his classroom was much too oppressive, and it’s a wonder anyone could learn anything in that environment. Then I think back to my own schooling, and I know for sure that I had teachers at times that I feared just as much, who made my insides coil when they came too close, and those were the ones who always pushed me to prove myself. They were the ones who got me to push myself harder. Then there are his motives behind his actions. He is a bitter, sarcastic, unhappy man and he does take it out on Harry because of his hatred of James and the constant reminder of Lily. I think that seeing Harry everyday was a constant reminder of Snape’s own mistakes and he didn’t like reliving them day after day. I think much of his anger was toward himself, and he just took it out on others to make himself feel better. (Not that it’s right to do that at all.) As for Neville, I think that as a teacher, it was very frustration to have someone inept enough to be dangerous in class. Add in the fact that the prophecy could have been referring to Neville, and Snape just didn’t like him. Snape did seem to soften a bit toward Neville later in the books. (Example, sending him and the others to Hagrid for detention instead of the Carrows.) All that said, he was much too harsh on them, he let his house prejudices effect his actions too much, and should not have let his personal issues with James in the past come into play with his relationship with Harry. (But I still love him, warts and all!)

10. Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

I think that Snape gave Harry certain memories in the end so that Harry would be able to see the motivations behind his actions. I’m not sure that he needed forgiveness exactly, but I think he wanted Harry to understand why he was the way he was. As he was dying, he had nothing left to lose, so he gave Harry the whole truth. I’m not sure he would have given Harry as much information had he lived and simply delivered the message from Dumbledore that Harry had to sacrifice himself. In that case, he would have only given him what was necessary.

11. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

I admit, I haven’t seen many interviews with Jo, so I cannot give an informed opinion on this one.

12. Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?

Which elements don’t? His love for Lily is polarizing. Some people find it romantic, some obsessive. (I find it romantic, mainly because I think the motivation as the years went on was less about his love and more about his guilt.) His treatment of students, his prejudices against the other houses, his killing of Dumbledore. Pretty much everything the man did and said can be argued about. Of course, this is what makes him so fascinating. He has so many flaws, actions and personality traits to discuss. He is an amazing character, regardless of how you feel about him.

13. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

Strengths: Loyalty, ability to love strongly, powerful wizard, brilliant. Flaws: Really? So self explanatory at this point. He is so flawed, it’s ridiculous. He never grew up in some aspects. He’s mean and sarcastic. He has problems with letting go both with grudges and love. He takes his anger out on others.

14. If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?

First, I would tell them to read the books. Then if they refused, I would tell them that Severus Snape is a flawed man who did everything wrong then spent the rest of his life trying to make up for it without anyone knowing he was trying to make up for it… now read the book if you want to know more ;)

15. What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?

Redemption. I think he felt he owed a debt to Lily after his actions snowballed, and he just wanted to do right by her.

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p. 323 of the US edition of HBP:

Snape to Draco: "You were certainly alone tonight, which was foolish in the extreme, wandering the corridors without lookouts or backup, these are elementay mistakes --"

Draco to Snape: "I would've had Crabbe and Goyle with me if you hadn't put them in detention!"

So that clears up that question: It was Snape. :)

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Snape told the kids to go into the classroom, and Draco obeyed him. Ron started talking back about Hermione's teeth versus Goyle's boils (hey - a rhyme!) and raising their voices, and that's why they got the detention while Draco didn't.

Goble of Fire Fifty points from Gryffindor and a detention each for Potter and Weasley. Now get inside, or it will be a week's worth of detentions.

So I don't believe Snape intended to give either Draco or Harry punishment for what they did in the hallway, since both of them had a friend who got zapped while they were aiming for each other. It would seem rather that he punished Ron and Harry for yelling at a teacher in the hallway when they were supposed to be in class.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Plus, Snape couldn't get too detention hppy with his own students, as those students connected to their parents, who were, of course, Death Eaters. Snape was trying to convince them he was still on their side, and they wouldn't take it well if he was always punishing their kids.

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I agree. I think Snape's actions were always monitored in one way or another and by both sides (the Order which always looked upon him with a dubious kind of trust and the DEs who expected him to be loyal to them, their plans and goals). Lucius Malfoy was on the Board of Hogwarts; plus all those students who were kids of DEs languishing in Azkaban. I think they would have looked upon Snape with suspicion and maybe a bit of envy and dislike because they may have felt he got off too easy, while their fathers were keeping the dementors company. Or, the kids of DEs like Draco and others whose fathers were not captured, but expected Snape to go lenient on Slytherin students and their own kids, because they shared a common link - all of them being followers of Voldemort. I think Snape had to walk a tight line even in the years Voldemort was absent and in Spinner's End it was apparent IMO that even that was not enough for the likes of Bellatrix, who felt Snape was not as loyal to Voldemort as he should be.

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It was, but I think the context suggests that on this occasion he may have put them in detention as much to try to stop them helping Draco with his plots to kill Dumbledore, as because their academic performance warranted it (although it undoubtedly did). Given the surrounding context I'm not sure it's the best example to support the argument that Snape was fair to all students across the board.

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Just wondering, Mel, is this your perception, speculation, or is there actual canon saying that Severus detained the pair to upset Draco's plans? I just read it as Crabbe and Goyle had done something and gotten detention for it. I guess I missed the context where Severus intentionally put them in detention. :)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Good question :) It's just my perception (NB in fairness, I did say "I think"). The context of the conversation is Snape trying to persuade Draco to take him into his confidence about the plans to kill Dumbledore. I read Draco's comment "I would've had Crabbe and Goyle with me if you hadn't put them in detention!" as implying that Draco suspects Snape did it deliberately to block him.

Snape says earlier on in the conversation "I can assist you" [bold mine], then after the discussion of Crabbe and Goyle's detention he says "if you are placing your reliance on assistants like Crabbe and Goyle -" [bold mine], so I read the subtext of the whole conversation as "Don't rely on Crabbe and Goyle, rely on me instead" and I read the detention as being one of Snape's strategy to remove other assistance from Draco to try to force him to turn to him.

I know this is just one (perhaps somewhat speculative) reading, and admittedly Snape at one point actually says that he has given C and G detention because of their poor academic performance ("If your friends Crabbe and Goyle intend to pass their Defence Against the Dark Arts OWL this time around, they will need to work a little harder than they are doing at pres-"), but I think he's protesting too much here. He's gabbling in a long-winded fashion which is quite uncharacteristic for him, which makes me think he's just making up an excuse here. Plus he tells Draco to keep his voice down when he accuses Snape of putting C and G in detention when they should have been helping him, which makes me think that there is more going on here than meets the eye.

This is just my reading and I'm sure a lot of people won't agree with me, but this is (I think! I'm probably wrong, though, so do correct me if there are others) the only time where we see Snape giving detentions to Slytherins and I think there may, just possibly, be an underlying reason for it.

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Good points. I can see your line of thinking there. If Severus hadn't mentioned the very poor performances by the pair, I'd think Draco might be right. But, I think that the two were detained just because of that and not intentionally undermine Draco. IMO, while we know Severus didn't want Draco to succeed at his assignment, he also didn't want him caught trying to carry it out, either.

We don't see any of the Slytherins get detention in any of the rest of the books because, IMO, we don't actually see them do anything in front of a teacher to get detention. Not that the lot of them don't deserve it, but we don't see them backsassing or arguing with any of the teachers, including Snape. The closest is their disrespect for Hagird, and, even then, it's done behind his back so he doesn't actually pick up on it.

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:welcome:! I, too, when I have the time, like to wander around the Snape thread. Sometimes, however, I just feel like I have to voice my opinion and will thus get drawn into the conversation. But I'm not too consistent in staying in the topic for long, either because I'm just too busy (I should actually be studying for my upcoming biochem exam!:scared: But I find COS to be too good of a procrastination tool) or that I find the arguments to get a wee bit tedious sometimes, as they often end up going in round-about circles. But, I digress... Anyway, I also agree that Snape is a great literary character and is truly fascinating to study, though I don't take a particular liking toward the fella. He's such a polarizing figure, for the very reasons you point out, which in turn makes for some very fascinating and even polarizing arguments. He is, by many accounts, not a great guy at all. He's often cruel, vindictive, and downright childish. But he also has immense bravery and a pretty stellar mindset when it comes to fulfilling one's goals. So, how do we then propose to judge him? Do we toss out all the bad to him, and ultimately name him a 'good guy'? Or do we discount the good he does, to ultimately label him a 'bad guy'? Some tend to lean more toward the former, others toward the latter. I try to remain as indifferent as I possibly can when analyzing Snape's character, but man, sometimes it's just too hard! To be plain, I often find it hard to sympathize with a man who truly did have a horrid life but, by many accounts, brought it onto himself. Also, I tend to find other characters in the series to be much more inspiring and remarkable than Snape, even though he is my favorite character. :hmm: Of course, Snape did some pretty admirable things, but so did other characters, and it didn't take them the death of a loved one (with perhaps the exception of DD) to fulfill such admirable deeds. So, yea, maybe my indifference and attempts at remaining un-biased only endure so far. But, I try!

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Is my memory failing me, or are some of these new? After all this time? You're good, Moriath!

After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?

From a straight cause and effect point of view, exactly what happened to the Potters would not have, if Snape had not become a Death Eater. (Though something worse for them and for their world, might well have, since their Order involvement would have made them targets to some degree regardless of Snape's choices).

To me, though, responsibility has a lot to do with intentions, and by the time something was going to happen "to the Potters", Snape showed himself willing to do whatever necessary (literally, "Anything") to save them. That this was not enough is due to deliberate choices to harm the Potters made by Peter Pettigrew and (especially) Lord Voldemort.

Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?

Yes. This is a character whose life we are now able to trace out from early childhood through to his death, with all the key milestones laid out for us. Some people may have questions about some events we are not shown, or about his precise motivations in some of the ones we are shown, but I would consider these relatively minor details.

To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

I think Snape's parents have responsibility for their neglect of their son. I believe their neglect narrowed the choices Snape had available to him in ways that pushed him to make the wrong choices. I would add Hogwarts (generally) and wizard society (generally) as additional factors in this equation.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

Yes to the first, and he was already on the good side before she died, to the second. He would have stayed on it if she had lived, in my opinion, as he did after she died. And he would have been happier with his choice, since he would know she lived because of it. (Instead of dying in spite of it).

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think he was reluctant to approach anyone in the Muggle world. His wearing of a heavy, oversized coat in summer suggests to me he knew he looked odd, and defensiveness towards Petunia (and her comments about him that provoked it) suggests to me this was because he had been mocked for his dress and circumstances before.

I think he would not have approached Lily if she were not magical, because I think he had already decided, by that point, and based on bitter experience, that no Muggle would accept him. He was waiting to get to Hogwarts, where (poor tyke) he thought things would be different, and his unexpected discovery of a witch in his neighborhood, gave him hope that maybe he did not need to wait until his letter came.

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think Hogwarts came between them. From what we are shown both during and after their school years, I have to believe Snape tried his best to maintain the friendship. On Lily's side the matter is less clear to me, but certainly we have evidence she gave it some effort. She appears to have for some time resisted peer pressure to give him up.

I think one reason they were able to stay friends as long as they did despite the pressures put on them by Hogwarts, is that (while we were not shown them) they had summers together at home, away from all of that, during which they could reconnect based on the interests and traits that had made them friends to begin with, and during which they were each other's only link to the magical world - the one person they could share their school experiences with.

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

Incalculably? Lily made it pretty clear she would not be friends with a Death Eater. So in my opinion, if he had managed to save it, he would not have become one. This would have to have included a clear enough exchange of views to get this across to Snape and offer him a clear choice. (Which I personally do not doubt he would have made, once he understood the stakes).

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?

His murder of Dumbledore, considered with the idea in mind that he was acting out of love for Lily, seems to me a highly disinterested, selfless, and courageous action. So far as Snape knew, neither he nor Harry (Lily) would benefit from this choice at the time he made it. It spared Dumbledore a worse death, which shows to me that Snape was capable of acting based on compassion for another.

His treatment of Sirius in PoA of course becomes easy to understand through the prism of his love for Lily. We can see in retrospect, that he is acting based on the same pain and desire for vengeance on which Harry is acting (with the added ingredient of care for Harry's safety, which Sirius is believed to threaten). His treatment of Sirius in later books in my opinoin has little to do with Lily. He is acting as I might expect anyone to act, who is treated by Sirius in the manner Snape is (e. g. Occlumency chapter argument), and as I would expect anyone to act, who is a sincere member of the Order (when he checks that Sirius is safe at 12 GP).

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

I don't see any link between the revelations about Snape in DH, and his relationship with Neville. The latter seems to me straighforward and adequately explained within the earlier books. The revelations of course explain definitively on what past experiences and motivations the love/hate relationship Snape has had with Harry is founded.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

I think what he always would have wanted and needed is Lily's forgiveness. Which since she was dead was of course unattainable. I am not sure I would say he either wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness.

Certainly, he had wronged Harry (most importantly through his role in the deaths of Harry's parents), and I feel his sharing of his memories (including ones that made this fact explicit) with Harry was an acknowledgement of this.

I find his death scene very interesting to think about. In it the author makes a choice not to tell us what Harry is thinking and feeling, much. So, what, if anything, did Snape the Legilimens see in Harry's eyes as he died?

What may have been going on in Snape's head when he died is also interesting considering the goal his giving of the memories achieved (or, what Snape expected it to achieve, anyway). The memories included the one with Dumbledore, in which it was explained that Harry had to let Voldemort kill him after the Horcruxes were destroyed. Snape's actions during that memory, suggest giving it was not something Snape would have been too happy about. And that is something Harry could not have forgiven Snape for at the time (as he did not yet know the contents of the memories!)

Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

The author has in my opinion been protective of her big DH surprise in the past, making Dumbeldore-and-Snape-worthy answers to troublesome questions in the pre-DH past. She has also seemed to contradict herself in some post-DH interviews. However, my general sense of her post-DH interviews is that we would agree pretty much on Snape's personality and character arc, but (being different people with different experiences and priorities) might value those things somewhat differently.

While she has stated she "likes" Snape, I think I like him a good deal more than she. :lol:

Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?

There is far less to be controversial about, in the rest of the characters. And what there is, is in my opinion, less interesting. I acknowledge there is a basis for considerable difference of opinion on shipping questions, for example, but Snape discussion offers the scope for clashes of worldview. People impute to fans/nonfans of Snape, any number of real-life positions people tend to care a great deal about, from racism and misogyny to general intolerance, classism, shallowness about looks, opinions on bullying, opinions about pedagogy, religious/ethical views on forgiveness, redemption, and the disposition of the soul in eternal life, the basis for moral responsibility, the proper basis for making ethical choices, etc. And so here we are. :D

If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?

I wouldn't, unless the person assured me there was no way they would ever read the books without an answer. In which case, I would say he is reason enough in his own right to read the HP series, and is one of my favorite characters in any book I have ever read, and I have read quite a few.

What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?

Friendship.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Could you tell me where you find that? I've re-read the incident in my book (GOF pages 299-300 US edition), and find nothing where Snape tells anyone to get inside, including Draco, until after Snape looks at Hermione's teeth and makes his cruel remark. Also, as Snape arrived after the students were lined up outside, he also had to be well outside the classroom himself; the book mentions several Slytherin girls pointing and laughing at Hermione from behind Snape, which would imply quite a few students still in the corridor who had not entered class.

So I think it is a toss-up as to whether or not Snape would have given Harry detention anyway, and not Draco, even without the outburst by Ron & Harry. Both should have gotten points taken or detention for trying to curse each other. I think Ron got in trouble for talking back to Snape, but I think Snape would have given Harry detention and points off regardless. He's done that before.

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My (often faulty) memory recalls only one time that Snape gave Harry undeserved points off-first portions class when Snape accuses Harry of not helping Neville in order to appear the better student. And I don't recall any undeserved detention. Would you mind passing on other references? I'd appreciate it!

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Other than the one-sided points-off in GOF (where he penalized Harry but not Draco), and the one you noted, I'm not remembering any others at the moment...so there are 2 from the books that we recall... if I come across any other specific examples, I'll be sure to post them up, or send you an owl.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

All I'm saying is that Ron and Harry argued with Snape and that's why they got a detention, while Draco didn't argue. Before that Snape was asking Draco what happened to Goyle and Hermione, but looking at the passage again it does not say when Draco left the hallway.

When Harry and Ron went into the room, Draco was in his seat. That's why I assumed he had gone into the classroom before them. I'm just stating the way I viewed it as a reader - it's certainly open to interpretation.

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After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?

He's responsible for setting the events in motion, and he's definitely responsible for passing on information he knew would mean hurting people. So I'd say to a large extent, which is why his story arc is so important for the very skeleton of the HP story.

Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?

Absolutely, and perfectly executed, too.

To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

I think this is a trickily worded question. I don't believe it's his parents who are responsible for his actions, but rather the parenting his received. His childhood and lack of proper parenting and a loving home do have an impact on the kind of adult he became, but I don't think they can be blamed directly for the choices he made. It's more complex relationship than a straightforward cause-and-effect one, in my opinion.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I firmly believed he would have eventually been disillusioned with the Death Eaters and tried to leave: I think his redemption arc shows that he had the ability to see things from the other side. I like to think he would have moved on - after all, he was only twenty, and in general people tend to move on from experiences in their early youth.

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I don't know if he would have been interested in her if she'd been a Muggle. But I think he was reluctant to approach her because he had very poor social skills and had been used to denial even at the young age of 9.

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I don't think that people this young - teenagers - ever really consciously work on their relationships. I think that in Lily and Severus's case, circumstances and outside events were strong enough and polarizing enough (with very good reason) to tear them apart and I don't believe either can be blamed for not maintaining or saving their relationships. I don't think either of them was even in a position to do anything about it. It's hard to see the larger picture when you're 16.

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

I don't know. Maybe he would have been happier. It's hard to tell, especially because one has to figure in the state of war the magical world was in and where both of them stood in it.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I agree with you that it can be open to interpretation to a certain degree; however I think that if you review it in context of his other actions in the same incident -- sending Goyle to hospital with no comment, but being cold (JKR's description) to Hermione in commenting he "saw no difference" in teeth going past her collar (effectively negating evidence that Draco ever threw a curse) -- it seems to me that he intended to penalize Harry and not Draco from the get go. Another example of Snape being unfair is in book 1, point against Harry for not noticing and correcting Neville's potion-making in class on the fictitious notion that Harry wanted to look good by comparison; which is ironic as he punished Hermione every time she tried to help Neville. So the way I view it, there is more evidence to support the theory that Snape would have punished Harry regardless, but not Draco.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Ahahaha, yes. I try to come up with at least one or two questions per new thread but it's not easy. :yuhup: Thank you for noticing.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I noticed the new questions. Good job. :tu: On Sev Analysis Gazillion and One, it can't be easy to come up with anything new.

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think he was terribly shy and totally without social skills. Obviously he didn't know how to approach Lily and introduce himself or anything. He'd probably noticed her doing "magic" and then watched to see if it was just a trick she was playing on her sister or if she was really magical.

When we read the description of little Severus, with his mismatched and outrageous clothes, and his abrupt manner, it's sad to me because IMO, it showed neglect and even indifference on the part of his parents. This more than likely made him a laughing stock in the neighborhood. I imagine he'd experienced a good bit of teasing and bullying by the time we first see him.

Then he sees this beautiful girl, the same age as he is, and she can do magical things. Severus knows about the Wizarding World, so to tell someone they're a "witch" isn't a bad thing to him. Again, this shows his obvious lack of social and communications skills as he wasn't able to tell Lily this in an "acceptable" manner, but, instead, offended her and set Petunia off. I am surprised that he was not more aware from his father's reaction that being magical wasn't all that great to some Muggles. Maybe he thought this girl would be different because she was so talented.

I think Petunia was already jealous of Lily and anything that made her seem anymore special was just one more thing to try to squash. So, she tried to discredit what Severus told Lily by dismissing him as "That Snape boy from down Spinner's End." This makes me wonder if there had been stories of him, possibly due to accidental magic -- and, maybe his appearance -- that made her recognize him. Whichever, Petunia wasn't impressed by him and didn't want Lily to be either.

I really don't think that Severus would have approached Lily if she hadn't been magical for fear that he would have just been rebuffed, a reaction that I think he got in most encounters with children near his age. But, I think he thought because she was magical that they had something in common, so it gave him the courage to approach her.

Since their first meeting didn't end too well, I often wonder: Did Severus continue to try to make contact with Lily, or was her curiosity piqued enough for her to make contact with him? When we see them next time, it's pretty clear that they have been friends for a while, so someone had to make the next move after Petunia stormed off and Lily followed her, ending their first encounter.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?
If he truly did not know that the prophecy referred to Lily, then I don't think he is responsible.

Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?
Yes, I do. He was strong and confident and intimidating in most of the series, and vulnerable in his last moments. :(

To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?
He could definitely point to his parents for being not so great role models, but once he became an adult, he was responsible for resolving his feelings about his past.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?
I think he would have continued with his interests, and also explored the good side from time to time.

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?
I think he had a crush on her, and would have liked her if she was a Muggle. He saw something he wanted, and perhaps felt unworthy, yet approached her anyway, despite his fears.

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?
Yes, I think that if they were friends, they were both putting an effort toward staying close.

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?
I think it could have been a turning point for him. He may have learned enough from just this experience to learn how to control his temper, and be more considerate. But then the whole series would have been different.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?
This definitely put a new light on everything. I went from thinking he was too harsh and cruel, to considering him rather brave.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
Similar to previous answer: his manner toward them was severe, but I'm not sure anything less would have supported the idea of an "uncaring" Snape who was ready to turn them over to Voldemort at any time.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?
Not until he was dying.

Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
Sorry, I'm not familiar with what she has said in interviews.

Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?
His role as double agent.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
Strengths: confidence, magical talent, leadership abilities, humor. Flaws: Impulse control, social skills (in terms of making friends), anger management.

If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?
That he's a melancholy, intelligent, brave man who may surprise them.

What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?
I think he valued loyalty, first to Lily, and then to Harry. Of course, to Dumbledore, and reluctantly to Voldymort.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Since I havnt been on this thread before I'd better answer the questions.

1. After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?

Well as he was the one who told the prophecy to Voldemort he is undoubtedly responsible to a degree but then he also went and warned Dumbledore which probably delayed their killings. If he realised what Voldemort was going to do with the prophecy he obviously wouldnt have told him about it.

1. Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?

Yes. I'd say so.

1. To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

I think a mix ob both his parents and his own personal choices are responsible.

1. Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I think he probably would have stayed a Death Eater.

1. Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

If Lily was a muggle I dont think Snape would have been as interested.

1. How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think it was Snape's friendship with the Slytherins who were going to become death eaters that ultimatly led to their friendship ending. If the house system wasnt their im not sure if this would have happened.

1. How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

I really dont know.

1. Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?

I usually see Snape as a bad person who did good things because of his love of Lily

1. How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

It certainly explains his hatred of Harry. Not too sure why he hated Neville so much. maybe bacause Voldemort could havr tried to kill him too.

1. Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

yes that is why he lift Harry all of his memories.

1. Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

Yes

1. Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?

The fact that no one knew what side he was on or his motivations until the very end,.

1. What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

Strength intelligence and magical skills. weakness social skills

1. If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?

A man impossible to understand until the very end.

1. What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?

loyalty

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Oh, great question. I can't see the two talking to each other again if Petunia had been present- perhaps Snape and Lily both spotted each other in the park when they were alone. If Lily seemed to have forgiven their first meeting, I think Snape would have been more inclined to try and speak to her again and she, too. Snape also could have shown her that he was able to cast magic upon the flower like she did and this piqued Lily's curiousity and was the first step in her seeing a witch as not being 'a very nice thing to say to somebody.'

All speculuation and my opinion, of course. :)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I think Lily would have thought about their conversation later and would be burning with curiosity over his explanation of her talent. She might have even approached him first the next time.

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Like FutureAuthor13, I too think this is a fun question to think about, and I suspect it's almost certain that she would have had to make the first move. I think the first interaction would have been too disappointing for him to try again on his own. I imagine he might have daydreamed about her approaching him, but he wouldn't have been able to approach her. The best that could have been hoped for from him, I think, would have been engineering a situation where a chance meeting was likely (though not necessarily certain).

Or maybe I'm just projecting my long-ago adolescence. :eeep:

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

This sounds really like what a kid would do. I agree that after the rebuff from Lily over hurting Petunia's feelings it would have been hard for Severus to have put himself forward again to open a conversation with Lily. But, he might have hug around where she might notice him and, when Petunia was not there, she might have approached him and asked what he meant about her being a witch. I would definitely think the next move had to be her's because I just don't see him working up the courage for a second try after the first one went so awfully wrong.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I have been thinking about the question about whether Snape would have moved on had Lily not died, and whether he would have turned to the good side.

I think it would have taken long time for him to move on - first love, whether real or unrequieted, can take a long time to get over.

I don't know whether he would have been able to turn to the good side - after all people didn't just leave the Death Eaters did they? Joining the Death Eaters was a one way ticket - as Regulus Black found out to his cost. I am unsure as to whether Snape would have found the courage to meet Dumbledore in any circumstances other than Lily's life being in great danger...

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I don't think it matters a jot that he didn't know who would die because of the prophecy. It's enough that he knew it would put someone in the line of fire from Voldemort. IMO, Snape is responsible for putting Lily, James and Harry in mortal peril, because he knew that someone would be in danger because of the prophecy. It doesn't become any less of an evil thing to do because he didn't know who the victims would be. Snape didn't get to play god, and decide who was worthy of life or death, which IMO, was what he tried to do.

I don't think it was a matter of finding the courage to go to Dumbledore. Snape went to Dumbledore because he was going to be hurt (as a consequence of his own evil deed), not because of a conscience that went against families in general being murdered, as the DEs had been doing all along. Snape needed a personal motivation to act against Voldemort. I don't think he would have felt any reason to act against Voldemort if Lily had not been in danger.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by FurryDice (Post 5919984) I don't think it matters a jot that he didn't know who would die because of the prophecy. It's enough that he knew it would put someone in the line of fire from Voldemort. IMO, Snape is responsible for putting Lily, James and Harry in mortal peril, because he knew that someone would be in danger because of the prophecy. It doesn't become any less of an evil thing to do because he didn't know who the victims would be. Snape didn't get to play god, and decide who was worthy of life or death, which IMO, was what he tried to do.

We've discussed this point several times and I think it is still a matter of opinion as to Severus' "evil" intent.

He was sent to get a job at Hogwarts and, being caught spying at the keyhole kind of put an end to that. So, he took the only thing he had to offer back to Voldemort: a portion of a prophecy. It was kind of an, "I didn't get the job, but, listen to this..." thing, IMO. I don't think he gave a lot of thought to what was in it or who it endangered. That was definitely wrong, but, IMO, not evil. There was no actual "intent" to hurt anyone when he carried the prophecy, just the intent, as I see it, to save his own behind.

Quote:

I don't think it was a matter of finding the courage to go to Dumbledore. Snape went to Dumbledore because he was going to be hurt (as a consequence of his own evil deed), not because of a conscience that went against families in general being murdered, as the DEs had been doing all along. Snape needed a personal motivation to act against Voldemort. I don't think he would have felt any reason to act against Voldemort if Lily had not been in danger.

I find this, also, a matter of opinion. IMO, Severus risked his freedom and his life in going to Dumbledore, not because of a selfish reason, but because of a selfless one: to save Lily's life. Of course he would have been hurt if she'd died, but I don't see that as his prime concern. His concern, to me, seemed to be that she was going to die, that she was going to lose her life, not him. He had no contact with her, so it wasn't like he was going to miss her anymore than he already did. He despised James, so it would have been a real evil way to get back at him, having him lose Lily, as well.

But, IMO, his concern was for Lily dying. Period.

As for having a "conscience" about a family in general, I think he was so consumed with his concern for Lily he didn't give them a thought until Dumbledore verbally gobsmacked him about it. Then he did ask for their safety as well. But, James and Harry were nothing that he was going to risk his life for as he would Lily. They were an afterthought. While, again, this may not be a totally generous and wonderful thing, it is pretty human to think of ones you love in peril before thinking of others.

In the end, though, he did agree to "anything" to save them all.

I agree with yorkiedoodle that Severus might not have left the DEs without the impetus of Lily's being in danger. First, he didn't have an opportunity to do so. He sure hadn't been invited to leave or come over to the "good side" by anyone that we see. Second, as pointed out and learned by Regulus Black, you don't just turn in your two-week notice and walk away quietly. Without all of the events coming together the way they did, I think Severus would have remained as inactive a DE as he could possibly be and still stay alive.

I do think, had he secured the position at Hogwarts the day he heard the prophecy that two things would have happened: 1) he wouldn't have needed to carry the prophecy because he'd have succeeded in his charge to get into Hogwarts to spy on Dumbledore; 2) once at Hogwarts and under Dumbledore's protection, Severus would have left the DEs and turned to the good side, because I don't think his heart was ever in being a DE. I think his being the "good little DE" was strictly an act, due to his being a spy and having to earn Voldemort's trust.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Dumbledore said that Snape "did not know-- had no possible way of knowing--which boy Voldemort would hunt down from then onward, or that the parents he would destroy in his murderous quest were people that professor Snape knew..." So I agree with you, Snape knew that a family would be destroyed, and was on board with that, he just didn't know which family would be destroyed. Once he found out which family Voldemort had settled on it then he started to care, in my opinion, because of the harm the decision was doing to himself. I don't think Snape was shocked to suddenly discover his boss was a murderer, just upset that Voldemort's choice would cause him distress. I see Snape's journey as that of someone self-centered who did play god by deciding who was worthy of life or death based on how much value they had to Severus Snape, to someone who finally recognized in his final years that people had the right to life, independent of him and his designations of worthy or unworthy.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

[quote]IMO, being a Death Eater, at all is evil.

IMO, it was evil because it put a family in danger. That was what the DEs were doing - destroying lives. Snape was a part of that. I agree, he didn't think about who it would endanger - he simply didn't give a toss who he hurt, IMO - it would take a complete imbecile not to realise that Voldemort would want to kill a prophecied threat and Snape was most certainly not an imbecile.


His concern for Lily dying was because it would hurt him. It did hurt him when she died. His prime concern was about himself, not Lily - Lily shouldn't die because she mattered to Snape. Lily's family didn't matter a jot - hence, Lily and her feelings didn't come into it. His objection was not to something evil happening, his objection was to something evil hurting Severus Snape.

It was selfish, because he was playing god - deciding that people only deserved to live because they mattered to him. It was about needing a personal reason not to be an accomplice to the most evil wizard of their time. He needed a personal reason not to help to destroy lives.

I don't think there's anything human in being a Death Eater. I don't think there's anything human in thinking it's acceptable to murder people. Perhaps it is human, but it is something from the very pit and depths of humanity, IMO.
Snape's conscience about a family in general is not just about the Potters - he had no objection to people being murdered because of his information until it came back to bite him. He was playing god with people's lives, as Death Eaters do.

One should not need to be "invited" not to be a terrorist. Also, people aren't exactly going to be falling over themselves to trust someone who uses blood epithets at a time when a war is targetting and murdering people because of their blood. People didn't know who to trust during the war, and I'd imagine most of them would have the good sense to cross those who called others "mudblood" off their safe-list.


I fail to see any reason whatsoever why a Death Eater would not carry such crucial information to his master. Snape would have given that information to Voldemort whether or not he got the job. He was listening at the keyhole for information.

IMO, there is nothing to prove that. What we have in canon is a Severus Snape who was loyal to Voldemort until he got a well-deserved, IMO, taste of his own medicine.

I agree. Snape was smart enough to know what would happen to someone who was a threat to Voldemort. And that is what Dumbledore said - Snape didn't know who would be targetted, not that Snape didn't know someone would be targetted.


I agree. That was a big part of the journey Snape had to make. He needed to recognise that people did not have worth or no worth depending on what he thought of them. That Lily's murder was wrong, not because she mattered to Snape, but because murder was wrong, anyway, whether or not the victim mattered to him.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I agree. I think this was what Snape needed to seek remorse for and repent. It was not the particular family or person who was actually targeted in the end mattered as far as Snape was concerned IMO, because I think the action which was completely in the wrong was taking what he heard of the Prophecy to Voldemort knowing that a baby would die at Voldemort's hands.

I disagree. I don't think Snape was in any way responsible for the Potters deaths. That is because I believe Snape came in time to warn Dumbledore in time. Had the Potters lived and no one had died because of Snape's action; that is had Snape's actions of taking the Prophecy to Voldemort not resulted in the death of the chosen child whoever he may have been, I still think Snape would be responsible and culpable for his actions which was taking the Prophecy to Voldemort with an attitude that bordered on uncaring of a human life that would be lost because of his actions and I think Snape would still need to seek the same type of remorse he showed in the Books. I believe the remorse for was taking the Prophecy to Voldemort and not for killing the Potters.

The Potters were not killed because of Snape. For one they were already targets which was why they were in hiding and two Snape came to Dumbledore when they were alive and healthy and well to tell Dumbledore of his mistake and asked Dumbledore to protect them at any cost, for which he was prepared to do anything. That the Potters died is IMO not because of Snape, but because of other factors, their choices (of choosing a SK refusing Dumbledore; Peter's betrayal, and Voldemort's intention to kill all of them). Though, I also think Snape would disagree with me; he IMO thought he was very much responsible for the Potters deaths.

I also don't think he realised that his action of requesting Voldemort for Lily's life, set in motion the whole story of Harry Potter and brought about the final defeat once and for all of Voldemort, because I think that action which Voldemort decided to honour (Snape's request to spare Lily) paved the way for Lily's death to turn into a sacrifice that protected Harry time and again from Voldemort, starting that Halloween night.

Snape thought he was going to be killed when he met Dumbledore on the hill. If did not have a conscience strong enough, he could have easily sent an anonymous owl and let it be. Dumbledore I am sure would have taken that information seriously, especially if he mentioned words that Trelawney uttered; Dumbledore would know that the anon. person was indeed speaking the truth and would still do the same things he did in canon.

But I think Snape's conscience would not let him be; the possible result of his actions (Lily's death) in his mind and heart was to him IMO more important than his own life or comfort. He feared Dumbledore and yet he came because it mattered not to him whether he would be killed or Kissed; he had to do something even at a moment that was potentially hopeless and a moment where he was staring at the death of Lily in front of him, because of his actions. So he came to Dumbledore IMO.

I think it was this inherent sense of rightness, which had been misplaced for a little while or maybe ignored, that came up to the surface forcing him to change; he realised that and turned away from Voldemort; ended up fighting against him and died helping others to win over him IMO.

Well who doesn't? I think Dumbledore changed and became the man he did after Ariana died because he realised just what he was about to become. He needed that (Ariana's death) to change to become a man who everyone looked up to; it was not that he did not know what he and Grindelwald were doing was not right; but love for Grindelwald blinded him to what they were attempting to do. Likewise I think Snape drifted into the DE, making the choice that was completely wrong. He changed when he realised that his actions could hurt others terribly; when it hurt him. I don't think it takes away anything from him.

I've always felt that Snape would have changed eventually. If not for Lily, he would not have changed at that time perhaps and not in the manner he did; but I don't think one can say he was hardcore DE like Bellatrix, McNair or others like them. JMO.

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Ehh, I'm not sure I agree with that. I agree that he was responsible for putting some family at risk even if no one had been killed, but that doesn't mean he wasn't also responsible for their actual deaths. Intent follows the bullet (or the wand, I guess). Trying to prevent their deaths after Voldemort had locked and loaded is a mitigating factor, but it doesn't entirely absolve Snape of responsibility.

In other words, if Snape had not passed on what he had heard of the prophecy, both the Potters and the Longbottoms would have been just any other Resistance members; but because he did pass it on, it became essentially a coin flip as to which one of them would be especially targeted. To me, that's the critical impact of Snape's actions, and that responsibility doesn't entirely persist or vanish based on the outcome.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I think Snape eventually came to realise this, maybe in his last year or so.

Closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. Snape had already done the damage. Nothing could undo the damage he had done. The Potters were always going to be targets after that, even if they hadn't died that Halloween.


Only "bordered on uncaring"? IMO, there is nothing remotely related to caring about Snape's actions as a DE. IMO, passing on the prophecy was an utterly uncaring and a selfish act, just as joining the DEs at all was.

Snape passed on the prophecy which made the Potters number one on Voldemort's kill-list. IMO, that puts a share of the responsibility for their deaths on Snape's shoulders.


I don't believe the Potters are responsible for their own deaths. Those responsible are those who acted on behalf of Voldemort, - Snape, Wormtail and Voldemort himself. That Snape didn't like Voldemort's choice of victim doesn't take away his responsibility in putting them in danger. He put someone in danger the moment he carried the prophecy to Voldemort. No matter who the victims were going to be. Nothing can undo that.


He may or may not have found out that Lily chose to defy Voldemort one final time, that she refused the offer to watch her child die. He may not have known until Voldemort returned.
Whether he knew or not, it was Lily's decision that saved her child. Lily and Lily alone. If Snape had had his wish, Lily would have stood aside.


That says more about Snape and the DEs than it does about Dumbeldore, IMO.

And take risk that the owl would be intercepted? In any case, Voldemort's plan was for Snape to be at Hogwarts - Snape tells Bellatrix he was at Hogwarts on the Dark Lord's orders.

I don't see it as a sign of conscience when he only objects to Lily being murdered. He doesn't want to experience the grief he was willing to inflict on others.


Plenty of people fought for the Order and against Voldemort without having first served and helped Voldemort. Most of them had personal reasons for fighting Voldemort, but they did not need personal reasons not to be members of something completely evil.


I agree. Nothing can change the fact that Voldemort went after the Potters because Snape passed on the prophecy. Nothing can change the fact that Voldemort decided to murder a baby based on information Snape gave him.

I think the term you've used "mitigating factor" is appropriate - Snape did try to do something, but it does not change what he had done. Not knowing who he was putting in danger does not change the canonfact that it was the Potters who were in danger because of his actions. It doesn't matter who the victims were going to be, Snape was responsible the moment he carried that prophecy to Voldemort, IMO.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

The reason I feel the way I do about the Potters is because there was a way they could defeat their deaths at Voldemort's hands. If they had chosen to go under the Fidelus with Dumbledore as SK or with James himself. they would have been alive. Had their Fidelus been secure, they would lived, unless they chose to fight for the Order again, and happened to die in the line of duty. So, I think, mainly because Snape's information allows the mistake he made to be undone completely. That is, in keeping the Potter family from dying.

That they died, after they were warned of being specific targets I feel was not because of Snape and most importantly not because they could not have been kept safe. I think that's what takes away the responsibility of their deaths from Snape's shoulders; not that he thought so. Snape never thought so; I think he always held himself responsible in every way. But I cannot help feel that the Potters deaths were not Snape's responsibility, mainly because there was a way they could have lived safely.

I think in this case they could have moved away in such a manner that the bullet did not hit them. They had that chance. That the chance did not work out I feel is not because of Snape.

I guess I see it this way. Snape made the mistake. He realised what his mistake would result in. So he came to Dumbledore and Dumbledore offered a way out for the Potters to overcome Snape's terrible mistake, so that the mistake became not a mistake at all. Should Snape be blamed when his mistake could be completely undone, in fact should have been? I just don't think so.

Answered in Brian Tung's post.

But this implies Snape came to Dumbledore on the hill to get the job on Voldemort's behalf, which means he never changed; I disagree. I think when Snape came to Dumbledore, he had nothing in his head about Hogwarts jobs or what Voldemort had ordered him to do. I think he came there to save Lily (for his sake) and her family (for her sake).

I agree. Plenty of people fought for the Order without having been DEs. My point however, was not that. It was that most people took a stance because it was personal for them. It was those people for whom it was not very personal, were the ones who were able to move away from their initial stance. Regulus joined the DEs; but for him it was not as personal as it was for Bellatrix for example, so he was able to change his stance, when he realised that Voldemort and his DEs were not what he stood for; when he realised he had discovered values, people and priorities more important what Voldemort represented. Unfortunately it needed him to make a mistake before he could understand that he was not this DE person at all, in the same manner, I think Snape too, joined Voldemort, but he was able to change when he realised that his value system was different from what Voldemort represented and so he walked away.

Of course he could have spared himself a whole lot of heartache and pain and everything if only he had not made the mistake in the first place, but that he did does not mean IMO that he had no value system to speak of at all, when he spent the rest of his life fighting against the system that he willingly joined in the first place.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I disagree that Snape's mistake was undone. Nothing can undo what Snape did. It was a case of closing the stable door after the horse had bolted, IMO.
Even if the Potters had not been betrayed then, they would live the rest of their lives as targets at the top of Voldemort's hit-list, because he believed their child was the threat mentioned in the prophecy that Snape brought to him.
Snape put a family in danger, and it turned out to be the Potters. There was no undoing that. The Potters were not to blame for their own deaths; Voldemort, Pettigrew and Snape were responsible, IMO.

The Potters were never safe once Voldemort chose to go after their baby. I don't think anything removes the responsibility of his actions and their consequences from Snape.

That the bullet was coming directly for them in the first place is because of Snape.


I don't see it. Passing information that will get people killed is a mistake, and there's nothing that I can see that would make it not a mistake.



Snape says himself in Spinner's End that he was at Hogwarts on the Dark Lord's orders the night he fell. It's something Bellatrix could easily check if Snape was lying. And Voldemort would not have been too pleased if Snape had started working at Hogwarts without his permission. I think that Snape changed, but it's also canon that Voldemort sent him to spy on Dumbledore, that Voldemort wanted him to spin a story for Dumbledore and to get a job at Hogwarts.



Taking a stance because it's personal is a far cry from being a terrorist, putting people in danger, until it becomes personal and your own actions come back to bite you, as they did for Snape. I think there's a big difference.

I think Snape needed to change his value system. IMO, he shared the "values" of the DEs when he joined them and worked for Voldemort. I think he needed to completely re-examine his values.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I have to disagree. The Purebloodists felt they had a gift and that it was being tainted and diluted by intermingling with non-magic beings. Their idea was to maintain a pureblood standard. Not a nice thing, but keeping Muggleborns from practicing magic and keeping Muggles "in their place," while pompous, prejudice, and nasty, is not, in itself "evil." The means that some individuals, who were DEs, went to carry this out was evil. The fact that Voldemort encouraged that was evil. But, I still do not see Severus as into all of the torture and murder, and still back that up with Bella's statements at Spinner's End. You can dismiss them by saying how radical she was. But, to me, they are valid comments on Severus' lack of participation in most of the activities and his avoidance of participating in them.

Again, this is a matter of opinion, but Bella's statements are cannon, so I guess that makes them a matter of interpretation. We just see them differently.

Once again, our perception/opinion of what is "evil" differs.

Severus was careless and uncaring. Both of those are very human failings, and, as we know, Severus had more than his share of human failings. But, his intent in carrying the prophecy was, IMO, not to put someone in danger, but to offer it in place of the failure to get the job he was sent to get. No, he didn't "give a toss," as you put it. But, again, while that is uncaring and not a good thing, I still don't see it as evil. Evil is someone who ponders over what mayhem the information he has will cause and revels in that. I do not see Severus as doing that.

And, again, I'll disagree. IMO, his concern was for Lily dying. As I said, it would make no difference to him if she was dead or alive as far as his own feelings. He'd lost her forever. He had no contact with her. What difference would it make to him if she were dead or alive? As a matter of fact, if she were dead, at least she wouldn't be with James Potter. So, if he cared only for his own feelings, separating her from James might have been rewarding.

He wanted her to live for her, IMO, not for him. He wasn't going to get anything out of it. She certainly wasn't going to come thank him for saving her life. So, I don't see his selfishness as a part of it. And, I've already conceded that his failure to include James and Harry in the initial request was wrong. He should have asked for the whole family. But, again, it is a human failing to concentrate on the one you love and to overlook others when that loved one is in danger.

IMO, this might have been a fact, had he really analyzed the prophecy before giving it to Voldemort. But, I don't think he understood it anymore than Voldemort did, since they only had a portion of it. Yes, Severus was uncaring. Did he know that Voldemort was going after someone? Yes, more than likely. But, did he think he'd really succeed with just the bit of information in the prophecy? It could have been anyone born at the end of July...that's a lot of people. The prophecy doesn't speak of a child, in particular. I don't really think that Severus gave the prophecy that much thought before transmitting it to Voldemort. So, no, I do not see him as "playing god." We don't know how bad he felt that someone was going to be murdered so that he might save himself by offering the prophecy in place of success at obtaining a position at Hogwarts. We're not told this, or with what relish he delivered the prophecy. Was he really happy to sic Voldy on some poor family, or was it a "them or me" proposition?

I wonder how many young Slytherins, similar to Severus, got lured into joining the DEs without full knowledge of their true nature? I wonder how many, given a choice to leave, would have done so if they could have without forfeiting their lives? Evidentally Voldemort wasn't above "inviting" people like Slughorn and the likes to join the DEs, knowing that he more than likely would lean to the good side. No, the good guys didn't know who they could trust, and many obviously trusted the wrong people. But, I think judging someone because they used a term like "mudblood" at a time of great stress and frustration is totally unfair. A certain Gryffindor probably never used that word, but ended up being one of Voldemort's most loyal followers. So, just the use of the word is not a real true test of character, IMO.


What information? Was Dumbledore finished with this candidate? Was it soon to be his turn? What questions were being asked that might help him answer better and get the job? We don't know what Severus was really listening for, just that he was listening. Maybe he'd heard Sybil's tone of voice change and it piqued his curiosity. I doubt he'd think he was going to overhear anything critical to Voldemort in an ordinary conversation between the Headmaster and a potential employee.

Since I don't believe that Severus was a dyed-in-the-wool DE, I, personally, don't think he'd have cared if Voldemort did have someone who would conquer him. That might have even been a relief because he could have been free of him. But, we are not told what Severus true feelings were at the time he carried the prophecy, other than Dumbledore's telling Harry that, as a follower Severus would naturally have carried the message to Voldemort -- but, even Dumbledore didn't know what was actually in Severus' heart and mind at that time. He was only remarking on a DE in general.

IMO, what we have is a Severus Snape, who, in canon, is berated and belittled by another DE for his lack of participation and dedication to the cause. Bella not only questions this, but also his loyalty. She makes it clear to her sister that she did not trust Severus to carry out the protection of Draco because she didn't feel that he carried out other things...that he just slithered back into his hole when the going got rough. It took his agreeing to the Unbreakable Vow to convince her.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

IMO, that attitude was downright evil bigotry, and the actions they took based on the bigotry were also evil. Who did they think they were to decide who was worthy and unworthy to have magic and to live? Who did they think they were, murdering Muggles for fun? People did not join the DEs to sit around sipping firewhisky and whining about "mudbloods". They joined the DEs for personal gain, and to cause death and destruction in the name of their bigotry. I don't think any of them were innocent. IMO, the whole organisation was evil to the core.

IMO, it is truly callous to not care that one's actions will cause someone to be murdered. IMO, it is evil to be a member of a racist group of murderers. IMO, whether or not Snape got the job, he would have given Voldemort the prophecy.


Well, separating Lily from James was what Snape hoped for, until he maybe started worrying that he wouldn't get what he wanted from Voldemort.
If Snape's concern had truly been for Lily, for Lily herself and not for his own feelings, he would have asked Dumbledore to protect the whole family, without being shamed into it. He would have considered Lily's feelings if it had been about Lily.

He knew he would feel grief if Lily died. He didn't want that to happen. He didn't want to go through what he was willing to cause to others.

This wasn't a matter of picking which person to drag from a burning building. Snape could, if he cared a fig about Lily's feelings, have asked Dumbledore for her entire family to be kept safe.

It was hardly rocket science - Snape told Voldemort about a boy born at the end of July who would have the power to vanquish him. Not just a child born at the end of July, but a child born to those who had thrice defied Voldemort. That would narrow it down a lot. Snape knew that Voldemort was a murderer. The entire wizarding community knew that when Snape was sixteen, and people didn't say Voldemort's name out of sheer dread. Snape was not an idiot - he had to have known well that someone would be in mortal peril because of his actions.

How was it going to be a "them or me" situation? Voldemort treated his followers like dirt, even with all their delusions of grandeur as DEs, but he didn't kill them randomly - the only time we see him doing that is in DH when he learns of the break-in at Gringotts. And he kills those DEs who betrayed him. He didn't seem to kill those who messed up - judging by the "quality" of his DEs, he would have very few left if he did that.

IMO, being a DE is to play god. They decided they had the right to decide who was worthy or unworthy. Who deserved to live or die. They played judge, jury and executioner. Snape did this too - it was fine to call others mudblood, it was fine to help in the murders of others, but not Lily.


I don't see Snape and his fellow DEs as being that dimwitted and gullible. The wizarding community was at war. People were being murdered. People feared to say Voldemort's name, by the time Snape was sixteen. If they didn't know the true nature of the DEs, it was wilful ignorance, IMO.

Using that word is a good reason not to trust someone, at a time when people are being murdered purely because others consider them "mudbloods" and that they are "tainting and diluting the pureblood standard". It doesn't mean that every DE is going to use that word, or that every untrustworthy person is going to use that word, but I do think it means that people who used that word were people to be extremely wary of.

He was there as a DE, trying to get a job in order to spy on Dumbledore. Why wouldn't he have been listening, to see if anything useful came up? Sybill Trelawney thought he was trying to pick up interview tips, but that doesn't make it so.

If Snape had in any way been a reluctant DE, or hopeful that someone could conquer Voldemort, he wouldn't have handed him the weapon of the prophecy.


The DE in question is also a crazed fanatic who is under the impression that only going to Azkaban for her master is good enough. Plus, she is downright jealous that she has fallen out of favour with her precious Dark Lord since the Ministry fiasco, and that Snape is rising in favour.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Hmm? I posted something here but it got deleted. Did I do something wrong?

Edit: Oh nevermind, I just read the PM.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

They were the people who had magic first...and paid a terrible price for it. After generations of persecution, executions, witch burnings and other Muggle-initiated forms of trying to exterminate magical beings, Pureblood families had little love for Muggles and did not want to share their gift of magic with them, and a sense of bigotry grew from this. IMO, this is what Voldemort glommed onto and used for his own evil reason -- revenge against his Muggle father.

Yes, there were Purebloods like Bella and her ilk who enjoyed killing Muggles for the sake of it, but, I think most of the DEs were like Regulus Black and just wanted to maintain what the purists felt was "rightfully their's." I don't think all DEs were murderers. IMO, people like Severus, who was a half-blood but had been badly treated by most Muggles he'd had contact with, were looking to feel stronger, more important, or maybe just a part of something. Bad thing about becoming a DE, though: no way out but death.

You're right. It was callous. It was uncaring. But, it wasn't evil. And, again, I state that I do not think that all DEs were murderers or torturers. And, our opinions differ greatly on whether Severus would have given Voldemort the prophecy or not if he'd gotten the job. I don't think it would have seemed as important since he'd have achieved the purpose he was sent for and that was what he would have been pleased to report to Voldemort.

I'm afraid I missed the part where Severus tried to separate Lily from James. He went along with Voldemort's assumption that he wanted Lily's life spared so he could have her, but, I think we can agree that Severus would have never expected that.

Immediate concern for a loved one in danger over those one does not know is a human trait. I can't really fault Severus for this. He agreed quickly enough to do "anything" to protect them all. There was no argument about that. So, while it would have been magnanimous for him to have asked to have them all protected right off, it wouldn't have been most peoples' reaction, IMO. But, he did the right thing in the end. I don't know what more he could have done.

This is a terrified young man, meeting with someone that could kill him on sight, or, at the very least imprison him, and not even hear him out about why he was meeting with him. I dare say he was trying to get to his point as quickly as possible and that Lily's safety was foremost on his mind. It wasn't Lily's feelings that he was frightened for at the moment, it was her very life. In the end, as I said, he did the right thing and asked for all their safety.

Once again, it was wrong for Severus to carry the prophecy to Voldemort and to put anyone's life in danger, no matter whose.

Since we don't see any interaction between Voldy and his crew in Voldy War I, we don't know for sure whether he dispatched the errant DE now and then in a way that would strike terror in the hearts of the rest or not. I can see him doing that and enjoying it.

So, if Severus was the slacker that Bella pegged him to be -- and she seemed to have Voldy's ear at that time -- and if he'd been sent to secure a job, I don't think he'd want to go back to Voldemort and say, "Oops. I got caught listening at the keyhole and didn't get the job," unless he had something equally important to take back with him.

In considering whether he'd be putting a family in danger or saving his own behind for not getting the position at Hogwarts, that's where the "them or me" comes in -- and self preservation usually goes with "me."

I don't personally see that, but, of course you're entitled to your opinion. I don't know of a time we're shown when Severus is in the position of judge, jury, and executioner, though. I don't think he or any other DEs had that power without Voldemort's say so.


People sometimes see what they want. Depending on what information Severus was being fed by the fledgling DEs he had contact with, he could have been told that the disappearances and deaths were just bad publicity to make LV and the DEs look bad. There is no canon one way or the other as to what he was told or what he believed. Only that he became a DE after leaving Hogwarts. Maybe that was preferable to going home and having his father beat on him some more.

Again, your opinion. I choose to differ. To me, it was only a very nasty word, but, unless it was back up with an action against someone by the user, it was still only a word.

That doesn't make it not so, either. There's nothing, IMO, that would have been said between Dumbledore and a potential staff member that would have been worth much. IMO, it was the change in Sybil's tone that got his attention and he may have heard her say "Dark Lord" or something as well. I think that's why he was listening when Aberforth caught him.


I've already stated why I think he gave Voldemort the prophecy. And, as I said, I don't think he actually analyzed it before he told it to Voldemort. To him it was either something to make up for not getting the job, or, possibly a way to earn an additional Brownie point and keep from being the "Errant DE of the Month" and roasted on a spit or something.

She was by the time we see her in HBP, but she may not have been that crazed, just a fanatic, during Voldy War I. Either way, she was still witness to Severus' action -- or inaction. She was not speaking of the current Voldy War, but the previous one, IMO, because she brought up about him being comfortable at Hogwarts while she was in Azkaban. So, she did not think him an up to snuff DE the first time around.

In closing, as we are so far from agreeing, and I feel that I am always repeating the same things over and over in reply to your posts, I think we should just agree to disagree and consider this done. :)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Well, the DEs are kind of wrong-headed if their whole thing is "Muggleborns are lower lifeforms", IMO:

Unless the Purebloods always had magical powers as far back as their history goes, wouldn't they also have muggleborns as the progenitors of their families? As in, the very first wizards who started their lineages in the first place were born to muggles?

If their whole bag was with muggles themselves then perhaps there would a modicum of logic to their ideology, but persecuting muggleborns really wouldn't have any basis since they themselves came from muggleborns really far in the past. And it isn't like Muggleborns have a choice if their parents were muggles.

But maybe I'm just over-analyzing.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I agree with Minerva. Some of the Death Eater's beliefs stemmed from witch/wizard prosecutions from centuries ago when muggles burned them at the stake, ect. They wanted to keep magic to pureblooded families. Although these beliefs were biased and wrong they were not unfounded. Some of he DE's had been personally scorned by muggles (Snape's dad..) There were evil DE's (Bella, and of course the DE founder, Voldemort) and cowardly, cruel DE's (Luicius) and then there was Snape, who I feel joined more out of wanting comradery, and respect. His beliefs stemmed from the treatment from his father, growing up. Not every DE was a murderer. Snape seemed more messenger, which, unforunately, led to murder. This led to his redemption.
I stand by the biggest difference between Snape and DE's was his ability to love. He didn't love someone easy, either, like Lucius. Lucius chose a woman of good breeding, pureblooded, possibly financially secure. Whether he loved her or just deemed her worthy is questionable. Snape fell in love with a muggleborn, a Gryffindor no less, and devoted his entire life to her. I see him as loving her and not being obsessed because if he were obsessed with her he wouldn't have cared if Voldemort killed her. He couldn't have her anyway. It brings to mind obsessive fans of celebrities who seek to kill them because they know they can't have them. He truly loved her and wanted her happiness. I believe he could have shared in that happiness had he not made such bad choices..

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

No, that's a valid point and you might want to check the HP Lexicon for a history of magic or, there may be be information on a thread here on CoS about that. :)

Further discussion would be too far off topic for this thread, I think. :shrug:

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I think, for a change, that I am going to stick to the questions and answer as best I can how I see this character.

After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?
No doubt, he does bear some resposibility for this, by telling Voldemort what he heard of the prophecy, a terrible chain of events followed.

Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?

I would have to say, "Yes". He went from a man who didn't care if a family was killed to a man who tried to save as many lives as he could before his death.

To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

I think to a degree they can be blamed, but once you grow up, you can't fall back on that, a child can be somewhat excused, but not an adult. Then your decisions are your own responsibilty.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

Maybe, maybe not.

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think he was a shy, introverted kid, and no I don't think he would have been interested in her if she wasn't magical.

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think it was hard to try to maintain a friendship being in different houses. I think they both probably worked very hard on it.

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

He might have eventually come around to a better way of thinking.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?

I don't think either is related for his love for Lily. Though if he hadn't been so close to Dumbledore, the "murder" issue may have never come up. So maybe that one I'll say was related. He thought Sirius had revealed the location of Lily and James. He thought Sirius was a murderer, like nearly everyone else. As to other incidents, they just never liked each other
.
How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?
While I can see why he'd resent Harry, there was no justification for his ill treatment of him. And Neville, I don't see any real reason at all.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

Perhaps so, but maybe not so much forgiveness as an understanding.

Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

I really can't answer that.

Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the
series?

All his actions make us think he might be on the bad side through almost the whole series. Yet we see him in the Order, but there's always that question of whose side is he on for a lot of people.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?
I think he was a darn clever wizard, he was intelligent, he was capable of love. His flaws: I think he became wrapped up in his own misery, and for a while was not able or not willing to see the bigger picture of things.

If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books
what would you tell them?

They are in for a shock.

What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?

Redemption.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I agree that the responsibility does not entirely vanish based on his having gone to Dumbledore. However, I do believe that his going to Dumbledore is a mitigating factor in considering the extent of his culpability.

In my own religious tradition, many factors weigh in to considering the extent of culpability for an action. The fact that Severus Snape actively sought to prevent the Potters' deaths - first by going to Dumbledore and then by serving as a spy to his own peril - would be considered one such mitigating factor. Another possible mitigating factor would be his state of mind at the time of carrying the prophecy. I'm not arguing that his state of mind is a mitigating factor because we actually don't know his state of mind. I'm saying that my tradition would consider this factor in weighing the extent of his culpability because this factor would determine the extent to which Snape was operating under absolute freedom of will - i.e., was he thrilled to be carrying the prophecy to Voldemort? (freedom of will) or was he terrified of NOT carrying the prophecy to Voldemort? (limited freedom of will)). IF his freedom of will was limited in some way (note: this is a hypothetical, not a statement), then his culpability would be considered to be further limited. According to my best understanding, there are no number of mitigating factors that would eliminate his culpability entirely.

Note that I'm not trying to force these considerations on anyone else. However, they do inform my understanding of the context and the character... and the text overall.

As for the Wizard-Muggle issue...

Wizards did endure centuries of genocide perpetrated by Muggles, and this is where the prejudice against Muggleborns originated. According to Professor Binns, I believe, the Wizards who accepted this prejudice believed - wrongly - that Muggleborns would ally themselves with their Muggle friends and relatives in the genocide against Wizards. Muggleborns were viewed by these Wizards as potential spies and therefore untrustworthy.

In actuality, Muggleborns were quite as capable of being persecuted as Halfbloods and Purebloods - possibly even moreso, given that they were often in actual contact with Muggle society. In fact, this is how Nearly Headless Nick nearly lost his head. (source: Beedle the Bard)

So the prejudice did not come out of nowhere. It came from being nearly wiped out by the society that the Muggleborns were born into. The problem is that the fear and suspicion of Muggleborns evolved into a lingering animosity that did not abate in some segments of Wizard society even as Muggleborns proved their alliance and loyalty to Wizard society.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?

Severus is responsible for carrying the prophecy to Voldemort. While he probably did not carry it with the intent of someone getting hurt/killed, he also didn't seem to care what the consequences were. This makes him responsible that an impetus was provided to Voldemort to go looking for "The Chosen One," which he might not have done otherwise. So, Severus cannot be let off the hook completely. While I don't think his intent was to get anyone killed, his lack of caring did eventually lead to that.

I do not, however, think he was responsible for the deaths of the Potters, only for Voldemort's seeking to kill them. They had every protection possible, because of Severus' meeting with Dumbledore, and would have been safe if they hadn't been betrayed. That is where the true responsibility lies -- with the betrayer, Pettigrew, and the actualy murderer, Voldemort.

Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?

Yes. He went from someone who was careless and uncaring about human life to someone who only watched those die that he couldn't save.

To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

It is the parents' responsibility to provide a child with the "tools" to live their life with. It is the child's responsibility, as they grow, to learn to use them. If the child is not provided with the proper tools for healthy physical and emotional growth, then it is much harder for that child to function.

Yes, once we reach adulthood we are responsible for our actions, but, while we may know what we are suppose to do, if we don't know how to do it we will probably make a lot more mistakes in our lives while trying to figure it out.

So, yes, I think that Severus' parents bear a lot of responsibility for his having to struggle harder to get his life on the right path. Once he did, he continued to struggle, as we see, with a lack of self esteem, caring, and compassion. But, once he was able to overcome that, he did a bang up job at the end.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I think he would have always had a special place for Lily, but, if he had not taken part of the guilt for her death onto himself, I think he would have moved on. I'm not sure he'd have ever had a "meaningful" relationship with another woman because I don't think he had ever seen one -- he sure didn't at home.

I believe, given the opportunity to get out of the DEs, that Severus would have eventually turned to the good side. I do think, had he remained a DE until Voldemort's first "demise," he would have turned to the good side before the next Voldy War and fought against LV from the start because of what he'd seen from the inside.

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

I think he was scared, socially awkward, and ashamed of his appearance. I really think, looking at Severus at that age, that it took a lot for him to work up the courage to finally approach Lily.

With his experience with his Muggle father, and (since Petunia seems to indicate he was known among Muggles) with possible other negative experiences, I'd say he wouldn't have approached Lily if she had not been magical. That was the common ground that, IMO, gave him the courage to step forward. He wasn't just looking for a playmate, he was looking for someone he had something in common with and he found that in Lily.

I do think he grew to love her over their years as friends, and, would have continued to love her even if she'd lost her magical powers.

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

Obviously, Hogwarts' House system put a major strain on their friendship. Their time together was limited, they were exposed to totally different philosophies by Housemates and were influenced by them.

IMO, Lily was "moving on" and moving away from their friendship even before the 5th year. She was beautiful, popular, and talented. I'm sure that she got a lot of flack from her female Housemates about how she could do much better than Severus. So, I feel there was already a crack in the friendship prior to the "Mudblood" incident. In the memories we never see her asking Severus why he is interested in the Dark Arts -- does he want to study to be an Auror? Does he want to someday teach DADA? She immediately assumes that everything he is doing has a negative motive. She seldom gives him a chance to answer her questions, but seems to answer them for him the way she sees things. While these are probably pretty normal under the circumstances, they also indicate to me that she was not feeling the same level of friendship that Severus was.

I think he felt this too and was clinging to their friendship because it was all he had. I don't think he really considered Avery and Mulciber "friends," but, he could hardly ignore or avoid his Housemates anymore than Lily could her's.

IMO, their friendship was doomed from the time they were sorted into the different Houses.

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

I think he'd have had a more positive influence in his life and might possibly not have joined the DEs. (But, then we wouldn't have had the HP series, either.)

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?

I never considered his killing of Dumbledore as "murder," as it was a pre-arranged mercy killing.

His and Sirius' animosities went back to school days and it may have been easy for him to believe that Sirius turned on the Potters, since he'd had some negative experiences with Sirius on his own (even Sirius' friend, Lupin, thought he was guilty, and he liked him).

Once he learned of Sirius innocence, he worked with him as another member of the Order, though, even though each sniped at each other constantly when they met.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

I can understand the animosity toward Harry and some of the reasons for it, but it was still wrong to go to some of the extremes that Severus did because of his hatred for James. He should not have transferred that hatred from the father to the son.

I don't see anything in DH that would apply to his treatment of Neville. IMO, it was total frustration and a lack of his ability (or desire) to adapt his teaching methods to cope with Neville's inadequacies. Maybe he thought Neville would eventually outgrow his clumsiness.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

Like Grimelda, I think he wanted and needed Harry's understanding -- I think that was more important to him because he knew that once Harry understood the things he'd done and the reasons for them that forgiveness would follow, because that's the way Harry was. He'd seen it in Harry for seven years. I think he knew Harry that well after all that time.

Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?
Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?

I don't listen to or read JKR's interviews that much, because, depending on when they were done and how much of the plot she was trying to keep under wraps, she would say different things about different characters.

Severus is a very polarizing character. It seems people either like him or dislike him. There are very few who are neutral. One of the things I think that makes him that way is that he's like a mirror. IMO, we can all see a bit of Severus in ourselves and we are either willing to accept that and consider that we, too, have flaws and shortcomings, or, we fight against it and just cast him aside as an "evil" person who cannot be anything like us.

Having enough of my own flaws and shortcomings, seeing Severus' redemption arc is a very positive thing and gives me some hope.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

Major strengths: loyalty, courage, love, determination, devotion.
Major flaws: inability to let go of the past; not adapting teaching methods that weren't working with students like Neville; stubbornes.

If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?

He was a very complex character who loved deeply, made serious mistakes, worked hard to set those things right, and, in the end, died a hero.

What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?

I think there were two things: Love, because he'd only truly cared for few people -- Lily, Dumbledore, and, eventually Harry. He loved Lily until the day he died. He cared deeply for Dumbledore as a friend, confidante, and mentor. And, I think he saw in Harry how much it meant to be loved, by your family and your friends, and watching how Harry loved them and what he risked for them, I feel that Severus did grow to care for Harry as the story progressed. Unfortunately, by the time he did he couldn't show it because of his cover as a spy (which, IMO, made him increase his outward signs of dislike).

The other thing was loyalty -- that you be true to your real cause, and follow through with that no matter what it takes. Once he had pledged his loyalty to Dumbledore, it was unwavering, no matter what was asked of him or how upset he got at times, he still carried out what he had to do. I think this was another thing that he saw in Harry and was impressed with. Harry was fiercely loyal to his friends.

I don't think Voldmort ever had Snape's true loyalty or he wouldn't have left him no matter what he asked or did.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Thanks, Mel. I trust these ruminations of mine will be on-topic.

I see what you're saying. I agree to some extent. Being a Pureblood-ist does not make someone evil per se. I don't regard either Horace Slughorn or Phineas Nigellus as evil, not a bit of it, but they do betray their Pureblood-ist bias on occasion (Horace is a lot more affable than Phineas, of course). Not all Pureblood-ists were Death Eaters ... Blaise Zabini is an example of an ardent Pureblood-ist who shows no sign in canon of wanting to join Voldemort.

However: the DEs are a whole other kettle of fish. They are always portrayed in the text as wizards who are prepared to do evil things against other wizards who don't match their notion of pureblood purity.

And while individual Pureblood-ists themselves may not be evil people, Pureblood-ism is, inherently, worrying. Any system of thought that regards another group of people as sub-human and inferior has inevitably led to atrocities being perpetrated against that particular people-group.

An important distinction has to be made, I think, between calling a particular prejudice 'evil' and demonising particular characters. Few human beings are out-and-out evil, IMO, but that doesn't diminish anyone's personal responsibility for joining a racist organisation, neither does it deny that apparently normal people are capable of doing some atrociously bad things. Becoming a DE doesn't mean you are an evil person beyond any hope of redemption -- that is certainly not how I regard Severus Snape, who turned his back on the DEs! Neither does it mean we should sanitise the DE agenda as portrayed in canon.

So, then ... do I regard Snape as an evil person? - no, I do not.

Did he commit a great folly and wrong in his youth by willingly joining a group who by their own admission delighted in persecuting, torturing and killing Muggles and Muggleborns? -- yes, I believe he did.

Did he pay a terrible price for these sins? -- yes, I believe he did.

Was he redeemed, as a character? -- in my eyes, an unequivocal yes.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I agree. But even before the Prophecy was made and Voldemort chose them, they were targets, they feared Voldemort and his DEs enough to go into hiding. From Snape's point of view, I think he was responsible for making the Potters specific targets because of the Prophecy.

The Potters would forever (until Voldemort was defeated) be targets; they were already targets, high risk targets, high enough for not just Lily, but also James to go into hiding (when Sirius, Peter and Remus were all working as Order members and fighting Voldemort and his DEs) from Voldemort before they knew of the Prophecy. Once Voldemort chose Harry, and assuming they knew about it, I agree that would make them double targets and the second one would be because of Snape. Not the first one, and I believe that was as serious as Snape's mistake, because they were in hiding - the whole family, which James would probably not consent to unless there was a real risk of getting killed IMO.

Absolutely. The bullet was coming towards them because Snape took what he heard to Voldemort. But, I differ from many others by having a different view of Snape's culpability in the Potters deaths. The Potters should have lived. And that was made possible (their safety after they had been made specific targets) by Snape's information to Dumbledore on the hill. So, yes, Snape did make Harry and by extension the Potters specific targets, but by coming while the Potters were alive to give information that should have saved the Potters removed Snape's responsibility for their deaths IMO, because they should have lived; lived because of Snape (that is his information). So, while Snape was responsible for making them targets, he also assumed responsibility for undoing that act and in doing so, he removed himself from being part of the group that actually killed the Potters - Peter and Voldemort. JMO.

I agree that passing information that will get people killed is a mistake. But, passing information that should have saved the said people? If those people do not act on the information, is Snape still to be blamed for that? That is where I disagree, because I feel Snape need not be blamed for that.

Then, do you think Snape came to Dumbledore on the hill because he also had in mind at that time about Voldemort's order and his anguish was partly an act to get a job at Hogwarts?

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Yes, he was responsible for making them specific targets. To me, it doesn't diminish his responsibility if they were already not-as-high-priority-as-Prophecy-Baby targets. Every hour of life belonged to them, and I don't see any action that cuts their life short as somehow of lesser harm because they already lead dangerous lives because of the threat of Voldemort. To me, that they were already in danger from Death Eaters is moot to the point of Snape choosing to put their lives in more danger.

But that does not remove the threat of Voldemort, that simply shifts the responsibility for the Potters not getting murdered onto someone else. If the threat of Voldemort wanting to murder the Prophecy Baby is not removed, then I do not see that Snape undid the harm he did, because that is the harm he did.

I was under the impression that they did act on the information that Snape provided. That was why they went under the Fidelius Charm. Snape's information failed to save them, and failed to remove the threat of Voldemort to the prophecy Baby. Even after Snape brought the information, Voldemort was still seeking and intending to murder the baby. In fact, Voldemort was continuing his attempts to kill Harry up to the day he died for the final and last time, almost two decades after the Prophecy was uttered.

I think Snape tried to stop what he had started, and that that was a good thing. I used to think before DH and the whole "For Lily" thing that he was so bitter all the time because his attempts to stop the damage he wrought kept going so fubar. But at any rate, I think Snape's journey was about recognizing and accepting the responsibility for his actions, and not so much about undoing them so they didn't count. I'd say that the latter was an impossible task.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I agree, Pearl. I was basing my "not all DEs were evil murderers" thought on the premise that I don't see the Black family sending their favorite son off to be a murderer, and, I'm pretty sure that Severus and Draco weren't.

But, yes, the idea of any group holding itself above another is wrong and when that group uses thug and terrorist tactics to achieve it's goals then the group, as an entity, is evil in its intent. Joining the group was wrong, and stupid. But, I'm against painting all members of a group with a broad brush as many join for reasons that really have nothing to do with the ideals of the group (peer pressure, status, etc.) and have the ridiculous feeling that they can get out if things really get too terrible. I think we see this a lot in gang members these days.

So, same as you, I see Severus as foolish for joining the DEs, and his actions with the prophecy were callous and uncaring. It should have mattered to him that some family was going to die, whether he knew them or not. So, his thoughtlessness and lack of concern did come back to haunt him in the end. IMO, his attempts to save the Potters did make up for a lot of that, but, just having set the wheels in motion without any concern for the consequences certainly counts against him.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

If Snape wasn't acting as a soldier when he was a DE, then what DID he do? What purposes would non-soldiers DE serve to Voldemort?

He must be quite lucky if he avoided having to hurt/maim/kill anyone in the time he was with them seeing how they were at WAR with everyone else.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Espionage, for one. I suspect Voldemort would have known that Snape was a talented Occlumens (he was himself, after all, a talented Legilimens, and surely would have recognized a worthy opponent), and that would have made him much more valuable as a spy than as a foot soldier. I did think that the way Snape was caught at the keyhole was a bit clumsy, but I think that was the sort of work he would have been suited for.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

From what I understand the only information we have on Snape's duties as DE, was that he was used by Voldemort as a spy.

HBP, Spinner's End "You asked where I was when the Dark Lord fell. I was where he ordered me to be, at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry, because he wished me to spy upon Albus Dumbledore. You know, I presume that it was on the Dark Lords orders that I took up the post?"

We know from Karkaroff in GoF that Voldemort had a network of spies. So I think that previous to being sent to spy on Dumbledore, that Snape was already part of this network of spies.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Occupational hazard of serving a murdering megalomaniac.

Why wouldn't he? As Dumbledore said, he hastened to tell Voldemort, for it concerned his master most deeply. It would have been a big way of gaining brownie points with his master, whether or not he got the job.

Asking Voldemort to spare Lily would have separated Lily from her family. IMO, he would have expected to have Lily in that case, perhaps as a "reward" for the prophecy - Voldemort did reward his followers, after all. However, he came to realise that Voldemort might not keep his promise.

Magnanimous? I think it would have been basic human decency. And again, it was not a matter of picking which person to drag from a burning building - protecting all would have been the same as protecting one.


I think they preferred murdering Muggles and people with the conscience to oppose them.

What about all the Muggle killings for fun in the first war? The DEs decided they had the right to power over life and death.

Whch I consider wilful ignorance.

It wasn't just a word - it was a word loaded with meaning. It was a word that carried the weight of a dangerous prejudice. It was a word associated with the bigots who were out murdering people because of the ideas associated with that word.

There is nothing to suggest that Voldemort regularly killed off DEs who messed up - if he did, he wouldn't have any left.


I believe they were unfounded and downright arrogant beliefs. By the time of the series, anti-Muggle/anti-Muggleborn sentiment was no longer about safety but about the deluded and arrogant idea that pureblood was superior and Muggleborns were "filth".


If he wanted her happiness, he would have asked Dumbledore to protect her entire family


IMO, the extent of Snape's culpability cannot be changed. His actions were evil and selfish - he put a family in mortal peril, for his own gain. I don't think that changes because it came back to bite him. I don't think it changes because he took action to avoid the suffering he was perfectly willing to cause to others. That he took action when the consequences bit him is a good thing, even if the motivation was selfsh, but it doesn't change the consequences of hs actions.

I don't see this as an issue. Snape joined the DEs of his own free will. I don't see the DEs as victims in any way, shape or form - and I include Snape in that. Snape knew he was joining an organisation that people lived in fear of. He knew he was going to be serving a man whose name people feared. He knew he wasn't joining the Hogsmeade Choir Group, but rather a group of murdering bigots. Also, if Snape was some innocent coerced victim, his story cannot be about redemption, IMO.

How does this relate to or justify the genocide the DEs engaged in, centuries later?


By the time of the series, it was nothing to do with a danger from Muggleborns. It was a lot more to do with the arrogant delusion that pure-blood was superior and that Muggleborns were "filthy little mudbloods". Not that they were dangerous, that they were "filthy".



And they died because Voldemort made them top of his hit-list - thanks to Snape's information


That wasn't going to be an issue, as in HP, people don't "lose" their magical powers. They're either born with them or they're not. Lily was never going to "lose" her magical powers.


I agree - Lily's housemates encouraged her to see what Voldemort was doing as an evil thing, Snape's friends within his house encouraged him to see it as a positive thing.


I think it has nothing to do with Lily being attractive, popular and talented. It's not some high-school cliche-fest, they were living at a time of a war based on bigotry and genocide. Her friends did not want her hanging around someone they considered dangerous -someone who practiced Dark Magic and who called others "Mudblood". Any good friend would worry about their friend hanging out with dangerous people - just as Lily worried about Snape's friendship with Avery and Mulciber.

:hmm: The Slytherins were not all DE-wannabes. They were not all arrogant bigots. Snape did not have to hang around with the racists of Slytherin.


I don't think it can be generalised that everyone can see a bit of Snape in themselves. I certainly don't. I think there are other, far more relatable characters in HP, nad characters far more like people I know and trust. Everyone has flaws, not everyone's flaws are as glaring as Snape's, nor do they cost lives, as Snape's did.


In other words, there is no evidence that Snape ever came to care for Harry.

Perhaps they were in hiding because they had a baby and Dumbledore had told them of the prophecy? Voldemort was not specifically hunting the Potters until he had the prophecy. He would have killed them if he got the chance, but I don't think he'd have gone out of his way to find just two ordinary members of the Order for no reason.

It doesn't undo what he did. His actions were the reason Voldemort was targetting the Potters.

I think it may have been a combination of both. It is canon that Voldemort sent him to get a job at Hogwarts, that he was at Hogwarts on Voldemort's orders at Halloween 1981.

I agree. I don't see the logic behind the idea that Snape was somehow less culpable because the Potters took a stand against Voldemort.



I agree. Voldemort wanted to kill Harry because of Snape's information. If not for Snape, Voldemort may have killed the Potters if the opportunity arose, but he would not have been hunting them down specifically.


I agree. Snape could never, ever make his evil deed not count. There was no way to undo what he had done. What he could do was take responsibility, repent, and work to help the child he had helped to orphan.


[quote]The DEs are a group that people chose to join - therefore, IMO, they can be considered as evil people at the time they're loyal to that group. IMO, there was no good reason or justfication for joining such a group. There was no innocent reason for being a terrorist, IMO. As for status - who wants status by destroying the lives of innocent people?





And spying for Voldemort would mean putting people in danger. Even if that is all Snape did, it was putting people in mortal peril for his own gain. It's helping Voldemort to destroy lives, for his own gain.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Just a scenario that I’d like to run past my fellow posters:

Shortly after delivering the prophecy to Voldemort, Snape risks everything to contact Dumbledore and ask that he protect Lily. Why? He doesn’t want Lily to die and he does not trust Voldemort to keep her safe. But this wouldn’t be a sudden realization for Severus. If his doubts about LV hadn’t been building up for some time, he would not have been able to defect--to accept the role as spy for Dumbledore--so quickly. So I think, at the time he heard the prophecy, a few months before, these doubts were already nagging at him.

So then Snape overhears part of the prophecy:

“The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...Born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...”

When Bellatrix (in Spinner's End, HBP) challenges Snape on why he didn't kill Harry when Harry showed up at Hogwarts, part of his answer is:

"I should remind you that when Potter first arrived at Hogwarts there were still many stories circulating about him, rumors that he himself was a great Dark wizard, which was how he had survived the Dark Lord's attack. Indeed many of the Dark Lord's old followers thought Potter might be a standard around which we could all rally once more.”

I think it entirely possible that when Snape overheard part of the prophecy, he assumed that the "one approaching" would also be a Dark wizard. From Snape's perspective at the time, I think he believed that the Dark Arts were the strongest type of magic. In fact, I think it’s doubtful he would be able to recognize that a wizard powerful enough to defeat Voldemort could be anything but another Dark wizard.

Now odds were that a Dark wizard would most likely come from one of the pureblood Slytherin families that were among Snape’s DE associates. The part about “thrice defying him” could still apply to someone among the DE’s because LV, being such a paranoid psychopath, would be able to interpret the slightest failure or comment as defiance. (And what evidence is there that the Potters defied him thrice?)

So what is Severus really doing when he turns over the prophecy to Voldemort? Would it be possible he hopes that in the resulting internal mayhem he can cut himself loose from the DE’s? Would it be wrong, immoral or evil for the family of a child that would grow up to be a Dark wizard as bad or worse than LV to be marked for death by the Dark Lord?

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I don't know what you mean by cut himself loose. Voldemort would have taken out the person silently and made up a cover story. This is if Voldemort thought that the killing had the possibility of causing internal strife. We see that generally Voldemort had no problem threatening DEs. Whatever the situation, I don't see Severus escaping that way. IMO his best bet would have been to fake his own death and live in hiding.
Also, in my personal opinion, I don't think I would condone the death of child even if he was prophesied to grow up to a dark wizard.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I think if Snape wanted mayhem and wanted to be rid of Voldy, he would not have shared the prophecy with him, and given the child the chance to grow up, in the hopes he would defeat Voldy. Instead he decided to curry favor with him.

Snape seems to think you need a knowledge of the Dark Arts in order to defeat a dark wizard, but that doesn't necessarily mean you have to be a dark wizard yourself. When he went to DD and asked him to protect Lily, he knew DD wasn't a dark wizard, but would be the best chance of spoiling Voldy's plans.

Even if he did think the baby would grow up to be even worse than Voldy, I personally think it's wrong to target that child. I don't believe our future is written in stone, and that baby had the right to grow up and make its choices - to be a "good witch" or a "bad witch" or even an ordinary once. "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." - Albus Dumbledore

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I'm not sure Severus really thought the whole situation through. I know, seems a bit strange to say of the man who became a successful spy, but I see the young Severus as having an impulsive streak, which he only later tamped down when he first began spying and using Occlumency. He appears unable to contain himself any longer and leaps out of the bushes when he first meets Lily. His indignation at James is so overpowering it makes him stumble over his words as a teen. He was so horrified at the identity of the child's mother that he asked Voldemort himself to spare a Muggleborn, then stood out in the open on a hillside waiting for the leader of the opposition, who he believed might kill him. These actions seem to be very emotionally-motivated, and I think the same can be said for his delivering of the Prophecy: wanting to gain favor (and therefore less likelihood of getting Crucio'd), and then, later, wanting to pull out all the stops to make absolutely sure Lily is protected, even if it means treachery to the Dark Lord.

What does this say about his loyalty to Voldemort? Mostly, I think, it means that his loyalty to Lily turned out to be far more powerful. I'd also add that I think it suggests he had no deeply ideological reasons for working among the DEs (once again, I look to emotional reasons for that), as he doesn't make any comment to the effect that he feels he is doing any wrong by betraying the DEs and their cause.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

This was a very interesting twist to contemplate and took a good bit of thought. It also helped reading some of the other ideas before I posted this.

To start, one thing that makes me think Severus knew the child would be born to a pair of the "good guys" is that I don't think any DEs would have "thrice defied" Voldy and lived. And, with all that was going on at the moment he was accosted by Aberforth, I don't think Severus gave the whole prophecy itself that much thought, other than it pertained to the vanquishing of Voldmort.

This is my idea of what happened with Severus, the Prophecy, and the aftermath:

Severus was a young DE who hadn't "made his bones" as they say. I don't think he'd done anything outstanding enough to be on the in with LV, where it was reasonably safe, rather than being just one of the rank and file DEs who were like canon fodder to LV. But, Voldemort saw something in him that made him think Severus would make a good candidate for a position at Hogwarts. This is another reason I don't think Severus had a very "tarnished" background, as the more "active" DEs seemed to be well know and their faces on wanted posters. While Dumbledore knew, somehow, that Severus was a DE when he met with him on the hilltop, it seems that fact was not known to anyone else on the "good side".

(I wonder how Severus contacted Dumbledore to meet with him, as the meeting was obviously prearranged? I doubt if he sent an owl, as it might be intercepted...any ideas on this?)

I think that being sent to secure a place at Hogwarts as a spy was his ticket to a "better life." As a spy, he would be expected to blend in and I doubt he'd be used as a "soldier" and sent off to torture and kill anymore. LV would want him to be above suspicion. IMO, it was an out for him from the regular jaunts that the DEs seemed to carry out so regularly, and it would please Voldemort that he was on the inside where he could keep an eye on Dumbledore. It was kind of a win/win for Severus

I agree with Iggy that he was very impulsive as a young man, and I think that's one of the reasons that he worked so hard later to change that -- to gain and maintain such control of himself (except when it came to Harry and Neville). And I think it was this impulsiveness that led to him being careless while eavesdropping.

As I imagine it, he was waiting his turn, and, it seems logical that he heard the change in Sybil's voice as she was reciting the Prophecy, and may have even heard enough to know it pertained to the Dark Lord. So, he became curious as to what she was saying, and that was what he was listening to when Aberforth caught him.

Dragged before Dumbledore, exposed as an eavesdropper, now, he'd lost the opportunity to get inside Hogwarts, which wasn't going to make the DL very happy, and, he would have to continue to try to avoid taking part in the activities of Bella and crew. He might have even been faced with being sent to the "front" as punishment for his failure and it would be pretty difficult to find a "hole to slither into" when the going got too bad.

But, he did have one thing, that portion of the Prophecy, that he could offer to assuage LV's anger a bit. So, I think he hurried back with that in order to save his butt. I don't think he thought who it was about or the consequences of relating it to Voldemort -- I think he was just trying to cover his failure as best he could.

Once it became clear that Voldemort was hunting for Lily and her child, his love for her overshadowed his fear of Voldemort enough to give him the courage to ask for her to be spared. He went along with LV's thinking he just wanted her for himself, and, he sure couldn't have asked him to spare James, if he'd wanted to, as that would have made Voldy very suspicious. LV could understand lechery, but if Severus asked for the husband's life, too, that would mean a whole different thing -- that would be compassion, which was beyond his comprehension. And, would probably assured that, not only would Lily be given no chance, Severus would have been putting his own neck on the block for asking for something like that. So he asked for what he thought he could get.

I think something in LV's manner, or the fact that Severus knew he really couldn't be trusted, made him rethink this, and he decided to go to Dumbledore and beg for Lily's safety. Maybe LV made it clear he was just going to offer her a chance to step aside while he killed the child and Severus knew she would never do that.

When Severus went to Dumbledore there was pretty much a shoot on sight policy for DEs, and he knew he was risking his life, and, at the very least, his freedom. He more than likely thought there was a one-way ticket to Azkaban waiting for him once he'd finished making his request. That's what he was risking just to ask for Lily's safety -- he had no assurance that it could or would be provided, although, knowing Dumbledore, I'm sure he figured there was a good chance.

When sternly admonished for not requesting the safety of the husband and child, Severus did quickly, and with no argument, agree to do "anything" to protect them all. And, he had no idea at the time what that "anything" might have been. But, he was willing to do it.

That's why I don't see his act as selfish and being done because of the pain Lily's death would cause him. There was too much else in store for him: being killed on sight, going to Azkaban, having Voldemort find out he'd betrayed him...any of these would have been things I think he'd have wanted to avoid, and would have done so if he was only acting for selfish reasons. I see this act as "selfless" and the first step in his redemption, the second being his realization that he was going to allow two other people to die when he could save them, too, with just one word: "anything."

So, that's my take on the "Prophecy Incident." It is, of course my own opinion and perception, but is based on several readings of the books and many, many discussions of this portion. :)

And, while it was mentioned to Bella at Spinner's End, I don't think the idea that Harry might be a Dark Wizard developed until after Voldy had been zapped by Harry's protection (provided by his mother sacrifice out of love).

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I agree, and I think that goes back to Snape talking about fools "who wear their hearts on their sleeve" in OotP, because at one time he was one of them, and impulsively spilled the fact to both Voldemort and Dumbledore over Lily. Of course, if someone is going to be impulsive, love might be a good reason, as it sometimes is with Harry, and not just love of adventure or risk-taking. It was certainly risky with Voldemort, which is why Snape hedged his bets on Lily's life with Dumbledore - he's a smart gambler.

I think the "Pureblood Cause" was always a stretch for Severus, being a Half-Blood, so his involvement was more to do with being a proud Slytherin (at first), and finding involvement in a group of other Slytherins. In my opinion, he had nowhere else to go at that point. His school years had taught him that he might never be accepted by people in any other house - the Hogwarts School of Hard Knocks, so to speak.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Interesting thoughts.

a) I don't think he was doing much except that he realised he had with him some of what sounded like a Prophecy regarding Voldemort and Snape took that to him. I think it's entirely possible that Snape was sent to spy on Dumbledore because he was a new recruit, so Dumbledore would have suspicions about Snape. I think Snape was much too scared of Voldemort to do anything except follow Voldemort's orders, and report what happened to him IMO.

b) I think it's possible that even by that time (assuming Snape was indeed a very new recruit) Snape was disillusioned, but I think that until Lily was targeted Snape never even thought of an out from Voldemort's service. I think the reason was that he was too scared of what Voldemort, Bellatrix and others could do once they caught up with him. All the more so, if he was there at the time or heard about Regulus who went against Voldemort and was killed. I don't think he would have had the confidence or the ability to hide successfully all on his own (at that time) from them if he left them. But once Lily was targeted and that too because he happened to take the small bit of the Prophecy, the whole scene changed for Snape. I think that act of his and the follow up action of Voldemort acted as a powerful instrument in helping him walk away from Voldemort.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Yes. We see that, other than a few incidents with Harry, Severus is very much in control of his deep emotions. I don't count his frustrations with Neville in this as I think they're something entirely different. But, what goes on with him in his interactions with Harry seems to wear his emotional armor pretty thin at times.

It may have been allowing both Voldemort and Dumbledore to see his "weakness" in loving Lily enough to risk his life to beg for her's that helped to spur him to shutting everyone else out. Letting Voldemort almost see was dangerous and, I have a feeling he may have seen what LV could do with little tidbits like that. Letting Dumbledore see got him locked into a dangerous life of espionage. And neither saved Lily in the long run. Lessons learned.

I agree that the "purist philosophy" didn't mean anything to Severus and that his involvement was at first through his being in Slytherin and then not having anywhere else to go. He might have "bucked the system" and gone against his Housemates, and that would have made Lily happy. But, it still wouldn't have guaranteed him an invitation to join the "good guys" once he left school. And that would have left him in a very uncomfortable position. In Voldy's mind it was probably, "You're either with us or you're against us." Not a good position to be in.

Come to think of it, I don't remember any Slytherins, as a matter of fact, who were fighting on the good side. Slughorn was fairly safe, because he was at Hogwarts, and probably spent breaks and holidays there as well. He's the only Slytherin that I can recall who didn't join up with Voldemort. And I'm pretty sure not all of them were blood purists or potential DEs. So, it seems that just being a Slytherin was enough of a taint on one to be excluded. I wonder what happened to the Slytherins who tried to remain "neutral"?

I like that phrase: "The Hogwarts School of Hard Knocks." Very appropriate.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

This comment intrigues me the most in your post, mirrormere. I must have overlooked it in HBP.

I believe there has to be a strong element of truth in the statement, because Voldy would have questioned his followers, and if Snape told him this and had lied to him, it would have diminished Voldy's trust in him.

So...Harry arrives at Hogwarts, and on the first day of class, Snape begins questioning him. Perhaps those Slytherin students were told by their "reformed" DE parents to get to know Harry and see if he would be a good rallying point, and Snape wanted to squash that as quickly as he could, for Harry's safety (plus Snape didn't know Harry yet - what if Harry was the type who would love the attention and want to be the new leader?) and because he didn't want another potential Dark Lord? And he wanted to highlight Neville's deficiencies as well, in case some of the students decided Voldy went after the wrong guy, when Neville was actually the one the prophecy referred to?

Thoughts?

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

True. And I've always felt that one reason for Snape's fascination with learning the Dark Arts was defensive. Feeling the need to defend himself would be a significant consequence of his upbringing.

Ah, Dumbledore. I agree that once between a rock and a hard place, Snape decided to turn to DD as he was considered the most powerful "good" wizard. But at that time, I'm not sure if he thought DD more powerful than LV. Snape had seen LV's power displayed. I think DD's not so much. After all, and this is something I have a hard time reconciling with DD's character-if the amount and severity of bullying that went on at Hogwarts happened in schools today, the principal would get canned 10 times over. DD never protected his students from that (even from Snape years later when he should have taken his potion master in hand) which may have given some of them, Severus included, the impression DD was weakening in his old age.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Yeah, I'd say sending an owl without any precautions would not have been a wise move. Even in his distress, I doubt he forgot just how terrible were the "punishments" Voldemort meted out to his servants. I'd say that he'd make hasty precautions, either had a way of keeping his owl protected, or he sent a note through the Floo or a third party.

Then again, it's also possible that he went straight from Voldemort to Dumbledore, was panicked enough to send an owl, and simply got lucky.

What I'd be curious to know is just how much time passed between the moment Voldemort revealed to Snape the identity of the prophesied child, and the meeting between him and Dumbledore. That may help clear up the question. :shrug:

I think Snape did see a real danger in Harry letting the fame get to his head. After all, being complacent is the last thing the Chosen One ought to do. I think that Severus did later, after Harry had defeated Voldemort the first couple times, come to the conclusion that Harry would never go bad (just arrogant and obnoxious :lol:), but could he have come to that conclusion by the first potions class? Who knows...

We know he makes a particular remark about Harry's fame and suggests Harry feels himself too good to study. He also seems to take great pains to emphasize that he has, to put it as he did in GoF, not joined Harry's little fan club. I'm inclined to think that, future Dark Lord or not, what Severus is really wanting to do is squash the arrogant tendencies he is convinced Harry has, as well as convince himself that Harry indeed has them. I would say that any aspirations Harry might have to dominate others would also be squashed along with his arrogance. You've got to be pretty self-assured to aim for the position of Dark Lord. :yuhup:

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I know JKR shows us moments when Severus seems to be acting impulsively, but I don't feel that is his usual state, even as a young child. The type of home he grew up in would require a child to have complete control of his emotions at all times. if you do not, you become a target for one or both parents' wrath. Living in that kind of environment extinguishes any type of spontaneous emotional behavior-even smiling or laughing. He would be "walking on eggshells" every minute of everyday.

Many times what comes off as perhaps impulsive emotion on his part, I believe is just his very inexperienced attempt at social discourse. He watched Lily and Petunia for a very long time before finally trying to interact with them and then didn't do so well because he simply didn't have the social skills. His first attempts at verbal sparring with the Marauders were inexperienced but he quickly got the hang of that (obviously.) The meeting on the hill with DD was prearranged, though we're not sure how (perhaps a secret message via Aberforth or Rosmerta?) not a spur of the moment whim.

And we have to remember that LV, even at that point, was considered the greatest Legilimens that ever lived. But Snape, shortly after his meeting with DD, has to go back to LV and conceal all his concerns and emotions about Lily, the fact that he has had a secret meeting with DD and that he is now spying for DD and is committed to destroying the Dark Lord's regime if not the Dark Lord himself. And he's what? Twenty-one, twenty-two? And he pulls it off. At that point he is already a better Occlumens than LV is a Legilimens. I've always felt that Severus was a natural Occlumens and that his unfortunate childhood only strengthened that ability.

I may be mistaken (it happens way too frequently for my taste), but my understanding was that not everyone that followed LV was accorded the status of Death Eater. Is that incorrect?

Since he so excelled at potions, I've always felt that he was working in that capacity for Voldemort. That would make him very valuable, keep him behind the scenes, thus the "untarnished" reputation and make him a good candidate for Hogwarts professor. How do you make Inferi anyway?

I think his suspicions of LV being untrustworthy had been building for awhile or he would never have attempted his request to DD. But I like your thought that Snape knew Lily would never step aside and allow her son to be murdered. That definitely would have added to Severus' anxiety.

I think this is one of Snape's 'thinking on his feet' moments. Where do we hear, in any of the books, this opinion expressed by any of LV's followers? If this were the case, wouldn't we see some attempt to discern that? The closest we come is Draco offering his friendship to Harry, and being rebuffed, his first day at Hogwarts. I don't think the adults would take that as conclusive proof. That lack is one of the main reasons I believe Snape expected the prophecy to be about a Dark wizard-he's the only one that ever mentions it.

Bellatrix has been in Azkaban, what does she know, or can remember after living with dementors for years? Narcissa isn't going to contradict the man she's begging to help her son.

I love this forum because there are so many diverse perspectives! I've always thought Snape's reference to 'fools who wear their hearts on their sleeves' was a reference to James Potter and his decision to 'follow his heart' use his friends as secret keepers in place of DD thus getting himself and Lily killed. Time to reread!

Agreed! And I think he got involved with the worst of Slytherin House for protection. You surround yourself with budding Death Eaters and your bullies aren't so quick on the attack. Unless you're alone. After an exam. I suspect he was his group's Hermione.

RE: previous owl, that would actually surprise me.

Hmm...I have to think about this and possibly revise my take on Snape thinking on his feet.

I'll have to think about this too. I've always felt Snape had a few ulterior motives with the attitude he took toward Harry besides just his dislike of James. This just might figure in.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Yes. It definitely would! :agree:

From his opening remark, Dumbledore seems to be under the impression that Severus has come with a message from Voldemort, so he may have used some form of communication that DD associated with LV. He asks Severus what message he has from LV, or something along those lines. Then Severus tells him he's there on his own and starts telling DD about the plan to kill the chosen child, etc. I'm just curious as to what form of communication Severus could/would have used? And, did he maybe set it up to seem like he was coming with a message from LV so that Dumbledore would meet with him and hear him out? Maybe he didn't think DD would just meet with a rank-and-file DE.

I think it goes back to Severus' experience with James, who, I think we can all agree, was arrogant during his time at Hogwarts. This isn't meant to be an offensive statement, just a statement of fact based on what we see of him (as little as it is) in the series.

Maybe Severus imagined someone with James' arrogance and charisma, only with tendencies toward the Dark Side. Not just Dark Arts, but someone who wanted the same thing Voldemort did: absolute power. That would be as scary as having Voldemort back in the flesh.

Since no one really knew how Harry had zapped LV the first time, there may have been serious thoughts that it was Dark Magic -- doubting that most of Voldy's followers would have given the power of love that much credit. So, it sounds logical that some may have been waiting for Harry as another DarK Lord to rally 'round. Possibly Severus felt by nipping the whole thing in the bud, he would be able to head that off, at least for a while.

And, even without being a budding Dark Lord, I'm sure Severus had had enough of James' arrogance and didn't want a repeat performance from his son. We know that for the first year or two he could only seem to see James whenever he looked at Harry...



No, that's my understanding, too. Greyback was not a DE because he was an "inferior," being a werewolf. But, I think any of the followers who carried the dark mark were definitely considered DEs. I think that was their "badge."

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

My guess is that Snape contacted him through Owl, only I guess he may have disguised it as an application for a Hogwarts job, with enough hints about that day at the Hog's Head to make Dumbledore agree to meet him, or he may have sent a simple request through owl asking for the meeting saying that he had something important for Dumbledore. Either way I think he may have known Dumbledore would meet him, because he was present at Hog's Head when Trelawney was saying her Prophecy. In both cases, I guess Snape would have ensured the letter was protected. I think his home life and the bullying he suffered in his school days would have instilled a sense of caution when dealing with most people, I'd guess all people except Lily, and later on, after he joined the DEs that caution would have only increased. Contradictorily coming to Dumbledore itself was an abandonment of that caution, but I think by that time Snape stopped caring.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Yes. I guess there had to be other wizard "Post Offices" besides Hogsmeade. He may have used a "hired" owl that was not familiar to anyone. And, we don't read anything about him having an owl of his own, anyway. So, that was probably the way he sent the request.

I wonder if Dumbledore just assumed it was from Voldemort, and only being sent by a DE as a cover? (Going back to his initial question when he first sees Severus on the hillside, and after Severus begs him not to kill him.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Guys, some of this discussion is getting way too speculative. As a guide:

1. Pointing out that we know from the Spinner's End dialogue with Bellatrix that many of the DEs thought Harry could be the new Dark Lord and suggesting that therefore when Snape handed over the Prophecy he might have assumed that the couple targetted would be on the dark side is perfectly permissible, because it's a deduction from the text. However, going on to hypothesise how this plan might have played out and what Snape might have done next is not permissible, because it's building a completely non-textual hypothesis on top of a debatable text-based one.

2. Pointing out that we don't know how Snape contacted Dumbledore for their hilltop meeting and that any form of contact would have been difficult and dangerous is fine. Speculating in detail about how he might have contacted him when we have no textual evidence on this point is not OK.

I'm sure there are plenty of social groups where you can take these speculative discussions.

Also, please remember, posts have to have substance. If you post a "Wow! Great post! Good job!" or "Sorry, I think you're wrong" kind of post and don't go on to say anything constructive, your post will be deleted.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I think after seeing Snape brought in, into Trelawney's room, in the manner he was, that is eavesdropping on what was happening between Trelawney and Dumbledore, any communication from Snape would have increased his caution. Whether Dumbledore questioned Snape or not (in the Hog's Head) I think he would be prepared for both the eventuality that Snape was a DE and would convey whatever he heard to Voldemort or that Snape was innocent; something he would find hard to believe though, since the meeting was taking place in Trelawney's room and Snape had been caught eavesdropping there.

So when Dumbledore received communication (by whatever means, owl seems most likely, since Snape would not have been privy to the Patronus communication, or through a Hogwarts house elf, if Snape knew about them), he would have come prepared for anything. And I suspect he knew Snape was working for Voldemort, because he greets Snape by saying "Well Severus? What message does Voldemort have for me?" DH - TPT.

Since there is no mention of Snape meeting Dumbledore after the Hog's Head, I think whether Dumbledore questioned him or not, was knowledgeable about Snape's position as a DE.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I guess it wasn't hard for Dumbledore to put two and two together and come up with Death Eater," since there wasn't much other reason for Severus to have been listening at the keyhole...obviously eavesdropping. Also, I'd guess DD was privy ot a bit more info than most about who was and was not involved with LV.

IMO, letting himself get caught listening like that shows that Severus wasn't all that adept at spying at that time, and really had to work to hone his skills later on. Maybe that, as Iggy alluded to earlier, was part of his working on not being so impulsive and maintaining better control of himself and his emotions. That, and allowing his love for Lily to be known. Funny how that registered so differently with LV and Dumbledore. I guess that shows the difference in one who is incapable of love and one who has loved someone himself.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I got the impression that very few people knew about the prophecy, or at least what it said. Jo said on her site that the Lestranges didn't know about it, and I can't see Voldemort passing the contents of the prophecy round and not including Bella. At Hogwarts only Dumbledore knew what the prophecy said when Harry started school, so I don't think Snape would have considered that others might think Neville was the potential Dark Lord.

I think that DEs might have assumed Harry had some power that had defeated Voldemort and therefore would have liked that power on their side, thus considering him a 'rallying point' for them. And I do think Snape would have wanted to nip that in the bud by putting Harry down in the presence of the Slytherin students so that they reported to their parents that Harry Potter was nothing special.

So I think Snape had double reasons for his behaviour towards Harry at first: to stop any DE children from taking him up and because he was the living image of James who Snape had hated so much. The first I think may have been the reason Snape was giving to himself for his behavious towards Harry and the second was his emotional response which perhaps he didn't even recognise.