Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I would say that it was his primary reason for doing so. One memory may have sufficed but Snape would not want to take a chance like that. At that point, he was dying, had nothing to lose and had no other choice. I don't think he cared about how people remembered him.

IMO if Snape had been alive, he wouldn't have given Harry all those memories. He would probably have told him a watered down story of how he liked Lily, mentioned the sword and patronus and had Dumbledore and perhaps the other portraits back him up.


Actually, I think that was put there for the benefit of the readers. As for his little speech, I think he was referencing himself as well when he said that.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I didn't take Snape's reaction in OOTP as pleasure that Harry understood that it was Snape's job to spy on Voldemort. I thought it was more a snide grimace at Harry's snarky reminder to him of what he's supposed to be doing.

As others have said, the purpose of giving Harry the memories of his relationship with Lily was to instill complete trust in Harry so that the memory of Dumbledore saying Harry contained a horcrux inside him would be 100% believed. I don't think only giving the memory of the silver doe would have been enough - Harry had to understand that where Snape's love for Lily came from, that he loved her from their childhoods and that it wasn't just a little crush he had developed on her in school. All those memories were necessary, IMO. As a reader, I wouldn't have believed it if the silver doe was the only memory given to prove Snape's love for Lily. We the readers and Harry himself had to be smacked over the head with it.

I agree Snape probably didn't give Harry's reaction much thought - but he was dying. If the circumstances had been different and Snape knew he would live a long life after giving Harry the information he needed to complete his mission and sacrifice himself I think Snape would have presented things in a much different light.

I agree, maybe not watered down, though, maybe just framed differently.

I don't think Snape wore his heart on his sleeve in any capacity. I think he was a master at hiding his emotions and that might have been a contributing factor in Lily's attraction to James who might have emoted more or been more emotionally available or vulnerable (But that's a topic for the James thread). Including that memory and giving it to Harry proved that Snape's love for Lily had endured the 16 years since her death, that he still loved her and that his motives haven't ever changed.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Within the world of the series, the memory is there because Snape gave it to Harry. Yes, it shows us something (as, for that matter, do they all!) but they are also the memories Snape gave to Harry.

If convincing Harry was Snape's number sole aim, I am not sure why he would include a memory of himself complaining to Albus about Harry, either. Or the two memories of himself arguing with Petunia (surely he had some wholly happy/positive memories of his childhood friendship with Lily, like, say, the memory in which they sneaked into Tuney's room together to read her mail from Albus?).

But according to you, it was not Snape's purpose to prove he loved Lily. It was Snape's purpose to be a credible messenger of Dumbledore's final instruction to Harry. The significance of the Doe to that purpose is to prove it was Snape who gave Harry the Sword. The memory of Albus ordering Snape to kill him, of Albus telling him Harry must die, of Snape discussing with Phineas and Albus' portraits where Harry is, and leaving the office with the sword, and a (not shown, but clearly extant) memory of Snape casting his Patronus and guiding Harry to the Sword, would serve as well.

I agree with you, that all the memories were needed to convey convincingly the truth, and depth, of Snape's love for Lily. This is why I conclude that demonstrating same was one of Snape's purposes in showing them.

I agree. Ernie MacMillan (Hufflepuff prefect, in HBP) seemed pleased enough with Snape as a NEWT DADA teacher, and expressed no surprise.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I'd say he would have probably passed it off as being friends with Lily and not said anything about falling for her and losing her to James.

IMO Snape made a lot of effort to appear that way. Inside, I think he was quite a sensitive person. It makes his ability at Occlumency all the more impressive because he had to keep control of powerful emotions.

I can relate because I'm the same. I'm guarded with my emotions in public but its a different matter when I'm alone. I hate the fact that I can be so sensitive and therefore that line from Snape made perfect sense for me and I think Snape felt the same way.

The reason I say this is because the memories Snape gave to Harry seemed like pages from his personal diary rather than the diary itself. Snape was bleeding out when he gave Harry those memories, it doesn't make sense to me that he'd waste energy picking and choosing.

If this was real, I think Harry would have received a lot more memories from Snape. As it turns out, Jo had limited words to tell everyone the story of Snape, so we see only the most important ones.

My point is that Harry probably would have seen that memory anyway but not because Snape wanted Harry to see just how much he loved Lily.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

No, it's not Snape purpose to prove he loved Lily, but by showing Harry in his dying moments that he had love Lily his entire life and that his feelings never changed after her death he was effectively able to gain Harry's trust so that by the time he got to the harry-is-a-horcrux memory Harry would know Snape was telling the truth. The whole being in love with Lily thing came out, I think, because Snape was dying and had nothing to lose by giving Harry that information. In fact it would strengthen Harry's belief even more than if Snape had given him a watered down version while expecting to live through the war.

I always thought his ability at Occlumency stemmed from his natural secretive, introverted nature that, for me, extends to how he expresses himself. I do agree that I think he had powerful emotions but I also think he didn't have a lot of experience expressing them in effective ways which tends to be why he flies off the handle or loses control of his temper on occassion, why he's always hissing through his teeth at Harry and why he always seems angry. I think he bottles his emotions up.

I think Snape would have been guarded in public and in private. Maybe not when he was totally alone but I don't think he was all that open even with Lily. I don't think it's ever mentioned in canon if he actually expressed his love for Lily to her, presented his heart to her and waited to see if she would take it. I think he didn't have the courage when he was younger (4th-5th year), lost all hope of a reconcilliation his 6th year and by 7th year became even more disheartened when she began going out with James. Snape, to me, seemed like the kind of guy to only put himself out there (emotionally) if he was certain the outcome would be positive for himself.

The only canon evidence we have of his truly becoming emotional (as in expressing loving feelings) is with Dumbledore when he begs him to save Lily and when he discovers she has been killed. I think she died not knowing Snape's true feelings for her (though I don't think by that time it would have made a difference to her, she was already in love, married and had a baby) All other examples seem to be of Snape expressing angry, resentful emotions.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

His ability to present emotions would not matter because Voldemort was not judging him based on outward behaviour. Legilimency would pick up on those bottled emotions and feelings.

You've practically described me with this and the previous para. By private, I meant totally alone. I agree that Snape wouldn't have been completely open with Lily but IMO she would have known a great deal more about him than others.

We also see him crying in Sirius' room. Except for a couple of instances, we never really see Snape get angry. Snape has always seemed to be in control in public.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Mmm... I don't know about that. Legillimens to me seems more like looking through someone's picture album or home movies rather than reading their thoughts about the subject in question - like a pensieve without the bowl or the syrupy memories. I mean, Harry didn't know the thoughts going through Snape's head when James hoisted him into the air in SWM - there wasn't a voice over in the memory saying "Man, I hate this guy! My own spell being used against me -- I never should have told Mulciber how to do it, I knew he couldn't keep a secret! I'm so going to repay Potter for this!" In this respect, I don't think Legilimency would 'pick up' on bottled emotions.

As far as Snape's ability at Occlumens, because he was already secretive or introverted with his emotions I think it was an easier transition to make for him to become secretive with his memories or thoughts. It might have been a more natural transition than for someone who is much more expressive of their thoughts and feeling - they might find it more difficult to shield them from others because they are already so used to expressing them.

I agree, but I think part of the credit has to go to her own intuition and her close friendship with Snape and knowing his personality and the way his mind works.

But when he does get angry it seems like he totally loses control, like he's a shaken bottle of coke - when it's opened it sprays everywhere and there's no stopping it.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Legilimency seemed to work by detecting emotions though. Strong emotions made you more susceptible to being broken into.

Perhaps. On the one hand, keeping control off your emotions all the time might help you keep control of it mentally as well. On the other hand, expressive people tend to "burn out" a lot of those things as well so you hold on to less emotions. Its the difference between getting angry and letting the other person have it versus keeping it bottled inside. I'm not sure which would be a better for Occlumency.

Exactly what happens when you keep it all inside without an outlet. Builds up like a volcano and when something ends up triggering it, everything explodes out.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Yes, emotions are what the Legilimens picks up on to detect a lie, and so controlling emotions is important in Occlumency. During Occlumency lessons, Snape often told Harry to control his emotions.

"I told you to empty yourself of emotions!" (Snape, OotP, Occlumency)

Snape also explains to Harry:

"Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so can utter falsehoods in his presence without detection." (OotP, Occlumency)

And he also mentions controlling emotions in the "fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves" speech. So it does seem that the control of one's emotions is vital to being a successful Occlumens.

As I see it Snape is completely driven by emotion, and that it was his enduring love for Lily that was his motivation from the moment her life was threatened. We are shown just how strong his emotions are regarding Lily, on the wind hilltop; in Dumbledore's office after her death; and when he is crying over the letter. These are the emotions he was keeping in check during his dealings with Voldemort, and to me is what makes his skill as an Occlumens the more remarkable.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I may move this to the Little Questions thread but my question about how legilimens actually works still stands. If Legillimens works by detecting emotions and yet all you 'see' when looking into someone's mind is something akin to a video reel with no voice over... I think I will move this to the other thread...

I agree that Snape is driven by emotion, but he is also obviously very skilled at publicly supressing those emotions and became, apparently, so skilled an Occlumens that Voldemort didn't even know he was practicing occlumens against him. I think the few moments we see of Snape expressing those strong emotions came at moments of personal devastation (discovering his love is in danger, discovering she has died, finding the letter written in Lily's hand and containing Lily's love) and moments of personal weakness (him succumbing to his anger with Harry).

The natural ability at occlumency seemed to come to Snape because of his ability to so effectively bottle up those emotions whereas someone like Harry (and by extension probably both his parents) who wears his heart on his sleeve had a lot of trouble with Occlumency and never did seem to get the hang of it (until, conveniently, it served the drama of the story, but I digress)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Actually the Little Questions thread isn't suitable for those long discussions. This thread might be interesting Harry's weakness against Legilimency. Feel free to expand on the topic of how it all works there :)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Agreed. Lily made that choice, and is part of the reason Harry survived.

He did something evil in joining the DEs and passing on the prophecy. Agreed.

Snape could not ask Voldemort to spare Harry - Voldemort would have killed him. He could not have come up with an excuse to spare James. He could however tell Voldemort he was interested in Lily, and perhaps she would be spared, and he did so, knowing even that put his life at risk. Then he went to Dumbledore, and DD could have killed him on sight. I don't think Snape wanted her family dead - he wasn't thinking of them at all. Had he been thinking, he would have realized Lily could not live without them. Dumbledore brought him to his senses.

Snape wasn't a DE at this point. He was a member of the Order and a spy for Dumbledore. And once DD brought him to his senses, he agreed all three should be spared - it wasn't just about Lily.

It's true - if Voldemort had ignored Snape's request and simply AK'd her, then they would all be dead. Voldemort made a huge mistake in listening to Snape (in Voldemort's mind).

If Snape were an "unrepentant DE" he would not have stayed at Hogwarts to protect Harry, I think. DD had already testified for him in court, and Snape was free to go. I don't think Snape truly wanted to be a teacher.

I think Snape's treatment of Harry said less about Snape's feelings about Harry's mother and more about his feelings towards Harry's father. Some wounds run too deep. Was Snape perfect? No. Did he have deep flaws? Yes. Did he save Harry? Yes - on more than one occasion.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

You know, I don't quite think it's accurate to say Snape actively wanted Harry dead. I think the hilltop conversation, which I believe exists to establish just how Snape came to work for DD and what Snape's moral makeup at 21 was, establishes for us very clearly that Snape does not care what happens to Harry as long as Lily lives. Still bad, certainly, but more of an accurate way of putting his feelings during that period.

Additionally, while JKR quite rightly uses DD to call Snape out on this, she does not draw a parallel between Snape and Voldemort. In fact, I believe that throughout much of DH, Snape and many other characters (including Regulus, the Malfoys, Harry, Kreacher, Xeno, and Harry's friends in the Order) are portrayed as nothing akin to Voldemort because they love.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

:tu: I don't think it's accurate to say that Snape ever actively wanted Harry dead. That is certainly not true of Snape the reformed DE, and I still think it's a stretch to claim that of Snape even at a more callous stage of his life, when he appeared indifferent to Harry's fate back in 1981 (which Dumbledore challenged him on).

Oh yes, it was bad. No question, IMO. Snape at one of his lowest moral points. However, it still doesn't make him as bad as Voldemort. Voldemort remains an unrepentant psychopath for the duration of the series! Snape is very different. :cool: A flawed man who deliberately turned his back on his dark past, and stuck to that. With enormous courage, as generously acknowledged by Harry.

I agree. And it's interesting that just as she uses Dumbledore to call out Snape for his apparent callous disregard for the lives of James and Harry, she pretty much does a reverse mirroring in The Prince's Tale, when it's Snape's turn to be appalled at Dumbledore for having raised Harry like a pig for slaughter! OK, we know there was more to it than that :) (I think that Dumbledore really did love Harry and, moreoever, believed he would survive) but, even so ... it jolts the reader as much as it obviously does Snape, and the reader shares Snape's reaction 100% in that moment!

Well, I did, anyway. :lol: I also thought it was an example of the author showing us how much Snape had grown morally since his dark days as a DE. He may not have liked Harry, but that didn't mean he wanted the boy dead! And not just for Lily's sake, either. I don't think Snape wanted any Hogwarts pupil to die because of Voldemort's murderous intentions.

I also think he tries to protect the pupils (as he promised Dumbledore), as far as he is able, from the worst excesses of the Carrows. It sounds like this wasn't particularly easy: we read how Neville, and others, suffered at the hands of the Carrows. But if Snape had tried to stop the Carrows' cruelty, how would Voldemort have reacted? He'd have smelt a rat! At least Snape succeeded in shielding the 'alternative Trio' -- Ginny, Neville and Luna -- from the Carrows, by sending them on a faux-detention with Hagrid in the Forest. It seems so obvious that I wonder that Voldemort and the Carrows didn't see straight through it, but then again, the Forest wasn't all that safe. But of course the kids had Hagrid with them! Anyway, I'm sure Snape found a way to make this so-called punishment sound highly plausible. He was clever, eloquent and convincing, after all.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

The forest wasn't safe for Hagrid after HBP. After Aragog's death, the spiders were in revolt and would attack anyone including Hagrid. Also, I think Centaurs were still angry with Hagrid. They did have Grawp though.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Well, it was either that or hand Ginny, Luna and Neville over to the tender mercies of the Carrows! :cool:

Like I said: Snape had no choice. He had to be seen to be punishing the girlfriend and close friends of The Boy On The Run. Voldemort would have been right on his case about that, IMO, and the Carrows would have gleefully tattled to Voldemort if Snape had been perceived to be weak in any way.

At least Snape could ensure that Ginny and Co were with Hagrid. :)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Oh, I know. I didn't mean to say Snape was wrong to send them to the forest, just that it wouldn't have been hard to convince the Carrows it was a worthy punishment.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I see what you mean. :tu:

First time I read that -- and it was obvious it was such a huge great clue about Snape's true motivations! -- I had forgotten the Forest wasn't that safe, so I did wonder how on earth Snape managed to justify such a 'soft' move. :whistle:

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I believe that the forest was a big gamble... It contained risks that could create worse results while there was also a chance that it would be far more pleasant than the other option. Therefor, I can't really choose wether I see this as something Snape did out of good intentions or not. I don't think Snape knew that the spiders were in revolt, though. But I might be completely wrong.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

"Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"
DH, Prince's Tale.

Voldemort asked Lily to step aside, as requested by Snape, instead of AKing her . Asking the very question gave her a choice - "If you choose to step aside, i shall allow you to live."



He was risking asking Voldemort to save the life of a mudblood, by admitting he "fancied her."