Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

[quote]Snape did not ask Voldemort to give Lily a choice. Snape asked Voldemort to spare Lily. I think that even Snape would know full well that Lily would not step aside if asked to choose between herself and her son. Nor could Snape exactly dictate to Voldemort how Lily was to be spared.


Voldemort rewarded his followers, he made quite a display of boasting about that. The rewards seem to have been double-edged swords, but I think that Voldemort would have considered Lily to be Snape's reward for the prophecy. And I don't think the DEs were required to consider Muggleborns ugly or unattractive, just inferior and subhuman. Voldemort didn't care whether Lily lived or died, it was her son he was targetting. One "mudblood" more or less in the population didn't matter that much to him, especially if he could have made use of her survival.


I would point to his behaviour when he learned that Voldemort was tracking down Lily and her family. He wanted Dumbledore to protect Lily alone. Later, he would have been delighted and greatly relieved if Lily had stood aside and watched her son die - he would have what he wanted. He did not care whether Lily lost her child or not. Snape would have gladly seen Harry dead if it meant Lily survived. His reaction to the news that Harry had survived shows as much - he swats the news away as if it were a fly. He would have infinitely preferred if Lily had survived. I think he greatly resented Harry's survival in place of Lily.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I just noticed an interesting parallel between Snape and Kreacher; Snape was good and loyal to the people who were good to him.

Lily was friends with him before they started Hogwarts. James and Sirius antagonize him in the compartment and then later on at school. After the Sorting we see Lucius welcome him to the house. Given that the Marauders were pretty popular and basically did their best to put him in trouble, I'd say he was unpopular in school and Snape's support group were a bunch of Slytherins who later went on to be death eaters. Much like how Peter joined the Order because of his peers, IMO Snape joined the death eaters because of his peers. Later out of desperation he goes to Dumbledore, who backs him. By backing him, I don't just mean him testifying to keep Snape out of Azkaban, but later at school where he lets Snape get away with stuff.

This loyalty to Dumbledore is what makes him agreeable to killing Dumbledore and later promising him to protect students at Hogwarts. Loyalty to Dumbledore and Lily is why he worked so hard to protect Harry. Loyalty to Lucius is what made Snape agree to an Unbreakable Charm to protect Draco.

It seems to me that Snape's main loyalties lay with certain people rather than a cause. If Snape was a free person in the conflict, I think it likely that he wouldn't have joined either side.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I interpret his request somewhat differently.

He warns Dumbledore that Voldemort is going to ‘hunt her down – kill them all -’ He then admits to asking Voldemort to spare Lily.

To me this whole scene reads as if panic, worry and fear have taken over Severus. He is only thinking about the danger to Lily – nothing else really matters to him. If he had been planning, or scheming, the death of James (and how he might benefit from that) why did he mention that Voldemort was going to kill them all? Surly that would be rather counter productive.

I don’t think he was really that bothered one way or the other about what happened to James & Harry at that point in time – As far as I can see he was only thinking of Lily.

I admit this doesn’t make him into a paragon of virtue but not thinking about someone’s welfare is a far cry from hoping that they will die.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Oh yes, and as far as I remember, Snape had the nicest way of protecting students that I have ever seen! :lol:

Going back to the seriousness, I always thought that he got into the DE by that very cause too... Group pressure and the people he had gotten used to being with.

What I still wonder is... anyone who thinks he developed some sort of liking for Harry or is it all about either 1. He's one of the few things he has left of Lily, or 2. He doesn't wish for any good person to be treated the way he felt Dumbledore was practically treating him?

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Not sure what you mean here; I don't think Snape developed any sort of liking for Harry. Harry, IMO, was a constant reminder of how he lost someone he loved the most to the person he hated the most.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Snape reminds me somewhat of a hippogriff. Treat him with respect, and you get respect back.

Usually, however, he did not put his good deeds on display. How many knew he saved Lupin - whom he did not like - during the 7 Potters? How many people realized he saved Harry from Quirrellmort during the Quiddich match? When he told Goyle to lessen his grip on Neville when he had hold of him in Umbridge's office by telling him he didn't want to list the incident when Goyle went looking for a job, when he was actually trying to save Neville from passing out?

I think part of the problem is that we usually only see Snape interact with Harry and his friends, the Slytherins, and Voldemort, and most of the story is told from Harry's POV.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Snape wasn't big on respect, I think he preferred fear, and couldn't tell the difference between getting fear and getting respect.


I don't see why that's a problem. Snape's actions are Snape's actions, and those that don't reflect well on him are clear. Why are all these interactions a problem?

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Lily made a choice to not step aside, and that was out of love and unselfishness, absolutely. However, if not for Snape's request, Voldemort would have simply AK'd Lily, just like he did James, and then he would have AK'd Harry. I think that, even when a character or a person does something which may appear selfish in some ways, their choice can still turn out to have a positive effect, even if that positive effect was unforeseeable.

lf we take into account only actions and behaviors, and not motivations, Snape's action in this situation played a part in saving Harry that night, as did Lily's and Voldemort's.

I suspect you and I are going to have to agree to disagree. Probably on most things connected to Snape. I don't believe either of us are going to sway the other.

My opinion.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

From the 'What if?' thread:

There is of course a very significant difference between the two men. One remained an unrepentant psychopath, whereas the other tried to make amends for his bad choices.

I like the irony of Voldemort not realising that one of his chief henchmen had actually been working against him for sixteen years until Harry gleefully enlightened him on the subject. :lol: I think Harry appreciated the irony too: he certainly relays the information to Riddle with some relish. :eyebrows:

Except that Snape didn’t ‘bring about his own destruction.' He became one of Voldemort’s victims, certainly, just as so many had before him, including James and Lily. He also died in the line of fire, as it were, as a secret member of the Order. He would have died alone, his true role unacknowledged and unthanked had Harry not turned up in the nick of time. This is something Harry fully recognises about Snape, in his generous acknowledgement that Snape was ‘probably the bravest man I ever knew.’ Just as this was obvious to Harry, it was also obvious to this reader.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I don't think he had any problem distinguishing fear and respect. IMO he was well aware that students were scared of him and I don't think he had any intention of getting them to respect him either.

The people who respected him did not do so out of fear.

People show different sides of themselves to different people. Harry was never going to see Snape's best side. Snape did not act the same in front of Harry, Draco, Dumbledore, Lily. Each of them saw different aspects of him.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

A bad choice may have a positive effect, but it doesn't in retrospect make the person right for doing something selfish and callous. If Voldemort had honoured Snape's request, he wouldn't have given Lily any choice. He would have just moved her aside. Snape never intended for Lily to have a choice to protect her child. Even Snape would know that Lily would never just stand back and sacrifice her child to a madman. Even if that's what he would have preferred, he'd know it would never happen.

And if Snape gets credit for his part, so does Voldemort. But does anybody say that Voldemort saved Harry by giving Lily a choice? I don't see it anywhere.


Make amends, because they hurt him, not because they were inherently wrong. No matter who Voldemort chose, it would have been wrong and horrible. If Voldemort had not chosen Lily's family, Snape wouldn't have given a flying fish. His problem was with Voldemort's choice, not with his own, it seems.

And in any case, I was pointing out the similarities, in the two of them causing their own misery.

I like the irony of Snape being bitten on the backside by his own callousness. It would have been equally horrific and tragic if Voldemort had gone after the Longbottoms and murdered them. Contrary to Snape's opinion, it didn't just become bad when Snape found out he cared for one of the potential victims.

He brought about his own suffering - he was the one who carried the prophecy to Voldemort. He himself experienced the grief he was willing to cause others for personal gain.

Voldemort killed Snape believing Snape to be loyal to him. As Dumbledore said in PS/SS, "he shows as little mercy to his followers as to his enemies".
He didn't know Snape had turned against him sixteen years previously, he believed that Snape was a loyal DE who was more useful dead.

Yes, it was generous of Harry, and that Harry forgave Snape tells us a lot about Harry.
Perhaps. Or, perhaps he thought that fear was just as good as respect. Lingering DE traits, perhaps.

The people who respected him were his colleagues. The students he made favourites out of did not respect him. That's clear from Draco Malfoy's behaviour when Snape tried to be strict with him in HBP.

That doesn't make the negative sides shown less valid.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I was enjoying that scene right along with Harry because Voldemort's learning that Severus had been Dumbledore's man for all those years was a total blast to his ego. It meant that his Legilimency skills were lacking. It meant that he had lost control of someone. It meant that he was fallible. I think the thought that he could be deceived for all those years was one of the worst things that could have happened to him. Loved it!!!


This is one of the things that has always touched me the most about Severus' character. He was willing to go through what he did for all those years, and, in the end, was willing to give up everything and become a despised and hunted man, to fulfill Dumbledore's plan and bring about Voldemort's demise. He asked for no recognition, and as Pearl pointed out, if Harry hadn't happened along, no one would have ever known all that he had done to try and help defeat Voldemort. That takes a lot of courage and a lot of self-sacrifice and IMO, he doesn't seem to get the credit for this that is due. All of this to make up for a stupid action as a young man who'd taken a wrong turn in his life.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

That's how it always works isn't it? Eventually something big happens that affects you, that causes you to realize what you should have realized long back.

Harry had a complete picture of Snape in the end and I think he understood the reason why Snape acted the way he did. I don't see it as a particularly special act that he forgave him. Naming his own kid after him was a bit special but IMO not the forgiving bit.

I don't think he cared either way what the students thought of him. He wanted them to do what he said with minimal fuss and as long as they did so, it didn't matter to him what they thought. My point is that he wasn't looking for respect from them in the first place.

Draco acted that way because he thought Snape was interfering. I don't think Snape showed favoritism to particular students. He showed favoritism to the students in his house when up against students from other houses but I don't think he was lenient with them in private.

No, it doesn't but it doesn't give a balanced view of him either.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Most people don't need to get someone murdered to realise it, though. Most people don't willingly become accessories to murder and only have a problem with it when they care about one potential victim out of the countless victims of the DEs.

:hmm: Harry's family were murdered because of Snape's self-serving actions as a DE. Snape bullied Harry, focussing all the time on the wrongs done to him, rather than the wrongs he had done to Harry before the boy was even born. I think that's something huge for Harry to forgive, and I think it says a lot about Harry that he was able to forgive that. It's not a trifle, no big deal that Harry forgave. He forgave something massive, and something which was compounded by Snape's bullying of the victim of his crime. Harry showed maturity and compassion in forgiving Snape the hurt he had caused him. Far more maturity and compassion than Snape had shown towards Harry, for that matter. I think it serves to highlight the huge contrast between Snape and Harry.

I agree with you that he wasn't looking for respect. I was responding to a post which suggested that Snape expected respect and responded well to it. IMO, Snape saw fear as easier to get than respect. Perhaps a remnant from his DE days and DE traits. The easy route, fear over respect. Shove people down to get what you want.

There's no evidence to suggest that. From what we see, Snape allowed Draco and his buddies to get away with a lot. Where would be the logic in being lenient in public and strict in private, if as some suggest, he was only letting them get away with a lot because they were miniature spies for Voldemort, reporting back on every telling-off and point he gave or took in class.

But it is a part of him, it's a large part of the way he behaved towards others, and I don't see any reason to dismiss it in favour of only the way he behaved towards Lily and Dumbledore. And even then, his behaviour towards Lily was questionable during their friendship.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

What are some examples of that? You mean the Slytherin team had permission to practice Quidditch in Book 2? Or when they wore "Potter Stinks" badges in GoF? Because the Hufflepuffs wore them, too, and even Ron was mad at Harry over supposedly putting his name in the Goblet.

We have several instances of Snape keeping the Slytherins from fighting with Harry and Neville - which I won't quote because they've been posted many times.

I think all the students get away with a lot. That's because the books are told from a child's point of view and the teachers don't know what is going on. JMO

You mean in OotP during the Umbridge reign of terror? That is partially true, but Snape also did everything he could to avoid both Draco and Umbridge and still try to teach Harry Occlumency. But the fact remains he lied to both Draco and Umbridge - and all the Slytherins for that matter - in order to help Harry.

And I figure the Slytherins resented the preferential treatment Harry received from the time he arrived at Hogwarts. Because of Harry, the Slytherins lost their House Cup for the first time in years due to Dumbledore handing out special awards - not very sporting of him to change the rules.

Anyway, if Snape was lenient towards the students in his own house, he's not that different from any other Head of House. We never see McGonagall give Draco any points, but she certainly put him in detention several times.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I think Snape expected obedience from his students rather than respect, something he would have learned from Voldemort: who cares if someone respects you, if they are obedient (even if that obedience is born of fear), that's all that matters. Respect is a nice bonus, obedience is the real prize.

I agree. Rather than saying they got away with a lot I would saythere is lots of canon evidence that Snape played favorites (as did McGonagall at times, as Silver_Ink_Pot points out), especially when it came to Draco vs. Harry or Ron or Slytherin vs. Gryffindor. Futhermore, I don't think Snape cared too much about what his students got up to in private. His mission, given to him by Dumbledore, was to spy on Voldemort and his supporters and at Hogwarts (during the downtime between Voldemort's defeat and rebirth) the best way to do that was to be lenient with the death eater's children, keeping himself in the in-crowd with them and basically showing them that he's still sympathetic to their old ways and ideas and not punishing their kids for touting those beliefs.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

In Snape's specific case, it was murder. It can be anything that causes impact to a person. Dumbledore needed Ariana's death to come back to reality. Regulus changed after hearing about Voldemort's treatment of Kreacher. Lily ended it with Snape after he called her a mudblood. IMO anything that resulted in Lily being harmed would have triggered Snape to act. From what we see of Snape, he would have eventually come back to the right side. Perhaps not come back and become a spy for the Order, but he would have quit.

Snape was responsible for both Harry's parents death and Harry's survival. Also, Wormtail played a huge role in this. None of this would have happened if Wormtail hadn't betrayed them. Snape did not actively send Voldemort to Harry's place. The prophecy told of a threat to Voldemort, which he relayed. He could not have known what Voldemort's plan of action would be. Sure, the kid would be in danger but as Harry and Dumbledore said, the prudent choice would have been to wait and watch. Instead Voldemort like Herod decided to simply kill whoever was a plausible threat. When Snape realizes that Lily is in danger, he asks Voldemort to spare her, which leads Voldemort to give Lily that ever important choice that results in Harry's survival (Incidentally, I wonder how it was a choice because Voldemort was not giving her any option). Snape did not intend it to play out the way it did, but the fact is that it was Snape's action that led Voldemort to give her that choice.

He bullied Harry because Harry represented to him the result of losing the woman he loved to the man he hated. Not just any guy but the one person he loathed. It did not help that Harry was a spitting image of James. James antagonized Snape right from the get-go and all the way through school. Snape had already got the nickname of "Snivellus" when he left the compartment. Later on, we see James and Sirius hanging Snape upside down surrounded by laughing onlookers facing the real risk of being de-panted. All this because one of them was bored and because James didn't like the fact that he "existed". To top it off, this scene happened after James saved Snape from Remus, which goes to show that Snape got it right when he said that James did it to save Sirius and Remus. Doing things like these has consequences. If you treat someone like this in the real world, you cannot expect them to forgive and forget. It breeds resentment and hate. What goes around comes around and James paid the price for it. Just like how Sirius paid the price for mistreating Kreacher.

Maturity doesn't happen automatically. If a kid isn't raised right, he will not magically turn out ok (well, he might but you shouldn't bet on it). Snape did not come from a happy house and while at school, he had to deal with others trying to mess with him. His support group ends up being budding death eaters from his own house. Its no surprise that he ended up joining them.

My sympathies lie with Snape here because it could have been so different for him. We have a "Who is to blame for Voldy going bad" thread and how he could have turned out different but none of it for Snape. I don't think anything would have helped Riddle change but Snape could have been. In the end, I think Harry understood this as did Dumbledore (who would have been well aware of Snape's school life). Not a black and white, he did this, then did that, then did this way but *really* understood why he acted the way he did, his motivations and thought process.

We don't see Snape using fear over any of his colleagues or peers. The students are a special case.

What I meant by being strict in private is that he wouldn't give Slytherins high marks just because they were in his house or refrain from reprimanding them. Similiar to McGonagall's private interactions with Harry and the Gryffindors.

We don't see much of his behaviours when he is not around Harry. Harry always saw his worst side just like Kreacher always saw Sirius at his worst.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Wow!

http://pics.livejournal.com/eumelkeks/pic/0008cc6e

Shades of grey, people! This thread needs some!


REVISED: Character Bashing/Worship: aka Shades of Gray

And for good measure:

How to have a pleasant conversation on any topic.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Yeah, no. Not even, or rather, particularly not in this thread, folks. Deleted some posts.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I'm not sure why all of the emphasis on what Severus' motivation for requesting protection for Lily or for protecting Harry. There are very few good deeds that are done solely because they are the "right thing to do." Most people do good deeds because it makes them feel better in some way.

I don't personally see that it lessens the "goodness" of what Severus did just because he was partly motivated by guilt and wanted to atone for something evil he'd done. Isn't that what redemption is all about?

Even we dyed-in-the-wool Snape fans freely admit he was an extremely flawed individual. But, I can't see why that would lessen the courage and loyalty that he showed throughout the series, starting with going to Dumbeldore to request protection for Lily.

IMO, his going to Voldemort to request that Lily be spared was the act that countered his having carried the Prophecy to Voldemort. That put him into great peril, as was mentioned, by requesting the life of a "Mudblood" be spared. It's no wonder he pretended that he was "interested" in her. I'm pretty sure he knew it was all over between them, so I don't think he ever intended to capitalize on Voldemort sparing her life. He just wanted her to live and thought Voldemort could understand his requesting her life because he "fancied" her. As far as Harry and James -- Harry was Voldemort's target and was a moot point. James, well, I wouldn't have expected him to have cared much about what happened to James. But, he did feel there was something he could do for Lily, and he tried. Part of it was to atone for putting her into danger, part was just because he didn't want her hurt. No one wants someone they care for hurt. Is that selfish? I don't think so. It's just human.

I'm also one of the ones who think Severus came to care about Harry. I don't mean they were ever going to have Christmas dinner together, but I think he grew to admire Harry's courage and loyalty, and the way he cared for his friends. And, the thing that I base this on is his request "Look...at...me..." when he gave Harry all of the very personal memories in TPT. If he just wanted to look into Harry's/Lily's eyes he could have said, "Look here," or "Hey, you," or anything neutral just ot get Harry to look at him. And, he didn't say "Look at these," when he gave Harry the memories. IMO, he gave those specific memories to show Harry who he was, what he'd done at certain points in his life, and why -- "Look...at...me..." If he hadn't cared about Harry it wouldn't have mattered whether Harry knew "the best of him" or not.