Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I agree with the rest of your post, this is just the section I'm replying to...

I agree, sort of, that Snape came to care for Harry but I also think he really didn't want to. I think he resisted those feeling out of lingering resentment for James whom he never came to like or respect but that his caring for Harry grew out of him because he was the last earthly vestige of the woman he loved for so long.

I disagree that he came to admire harry's courage and loyalty because he so often seemed to comment about Harry's courage and loyalty leading him into recklessness and 'playing the hero' when Snape believed Harry should have gone to an adult to handle the situation. I think this was a trait harry might have inherited from James which would have compounded the lack of admiration for Snape - "He's his father over again!" Snape saw in Harry what he expected to see, James, and resisted all inclination to admire traits James might have posessed on principle. Furthemore, I think Snape thought Harry to be overly emotional and impulsive in his actions which is something that goes against, seemingly, what a Slytherin like Snape would have done and I don't think it's something Snape would have come to admire.

I also think Snape's "Look at me" line is simple and direct. He didn't want to play games in his dying moments. He requested simply what he wanted - for Harry to look at him so his last earthly sight would of Lily's eyes. He had no reason to be 'neutral' in his request because he was dying. He asked for what he wanted in a way that garaunteed he would get what he wanted. I also disagree that the reason he gave Harry those specific memories was to show Harry the best of himself - IMO he gave them to harry simply to prove to Harry that he could be trusted, his words and actions could be trusted so that when the big moment about Harry being a horcrux was revealed that Harry would believe it because Snape was acting for him, not trying to decieve him. He also didn't tell harry to "look at these" when he gave him the memories because, again, IMO Snape knew enough of Harry's curiosity to know he would look at them. He wasn't going to waste energy telling Harry to do something he already knew harry would do.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I don't think Snape's final moments are quite as simple as him wanting to give Harry a gift of sorts because he admired him or him wanting to only give Potter information strictly for business reasons. I don't think the relationship between Snape and Harry is ever as straightforward as it may seem. Nearly all their interactions are tainted by prejudices and misinformation, combined with the contradictory roles each play in the other's life-- they detest each other, but also need and aid one another.

The mere fact that Snape's final words are "Look...at...me..." strikes me as incredibly important. Did Snape himself have underlying motives for saying what he did? Who knows? But as those memories do provide both the importance of Lily's eyes and the story of Snape himself I think the line is deliberately meant to have a double meaning to both Harry and the reader. It also serves as a wonderful ending point to the whole Snape-Harry relationship: for seven years, they've been at each other's throats because of how little they know of each other.

Myself, I wouldn't use "Look...at...me..." to prove that Snape changed his mind about Harry because it's IMO intentionally ambiguous about Snape's mindset at the time (it's somewhat suggestive, though, IMHO). What I would use are the memories, which seem to me to be filled with things that are unnecessary in a conversation strictly between Snape and Harry, if Snape were only interested in getting Harry's trust (plus, none are aware of the reader and what the reader knows/doesn't know/has to know).

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I definitely agree that it didn't come easy to Severus to admit that he was seeing the good side of James Potter's son. And, I don't think it happened until later in the series. Maybe it began while watching Harry, as an unknowing bit of bait, fight his way through the challenges of the Goblet of Fire when they all knew Dumbledore could have gotten him out on a technicality, but chose not to. IMO, he was definitely effected by seeing Harry's memories in Order of the Phoenix, realizing that Harry had a lot more in common with him than he did with his father, James. The "pensieve diving" that Harry did set this way back and Severus shut him out, but, in the end he still came through when Harry delivered the cryptic message about Sirius. And, upon discovering Harry and crew had gone to the MoM, sent the Order members there to rescue him since he couldn't go himself.

Unfortunately, having to hide his emotions from Voldy's brain scans, it was probably easier to do this by concentrating on hating Harry, but, in DH, when he's told that Harry must die he doesn't respond with anything about Lily, he berates Dumbledore for having raised Harry "like a pig for slaughter." He stops calling him Potter and refers to him as "the boy," which shows me that he's separating him from James. Yes, he produced the Silver Doe, exhibiting his love for Lily, but he never denied having grown to care for Harry. I think he was just using the doe to distract Dumbledore, which it did, and stop him from pushing for an answer to the question about his feelings for Harry. If pushed he knew he couldn't lie because Dumbledore knew him too well and would have seen through it.

There were so many things going on during Severus' death scene. I was just pointing out the ones that made me feel that he wanted to show Harry something about himself. He had so many things to show him and was primarily desperate to get Dumbledore's message to him. The other things, I think, came from the way he'd grown to care for Harry and how he wanted to show him what he'd done, right and wrong, and why he'd done it. IMO, that may have been what called up those particular memories. I think he wanted Harry to know how sorry he was for having delivered the prophecy to Voldemort, setting that whole thing into motion. I think he wanted to show Harry that Lily had once cared for him and that he'd loved her from the time he met her. And, I think he wanted Harry to know why he killed Dumbledore. Since he thought Harry was destined to die, the memories, IMO, were for him, alone and came from the heart.

Of course these are only my perceptions and opinions.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

After reading DH, to what extent do you think is Snape responsible for what happened to the Potters?

I think he is responsible for what happened, it was his choice entirely to tell Voldemort what he had heard. He was clearly capable to conceal his mind from him so he has no excuse there. However I believe in redemption and second chances. From the moment he realized what he'd done, he did everything in his power to fix his mistake. In my opinion it takes a great strength of character to admit your faults and to try and repair them. I believe it's never too late to turn back to the light.

Do you think Snape's character development arc is complete?

Well yes and no. Yes because in the last book the character grows a lot. He is no longer as childish as in the other books. No because there are so many things that I would like to find out about him.

To what extent are Snape's parents to blame for his later choices and to what extent are they his own responsibility?

As I've said before, we are all responsible for our choices. We always want to hold someone else responsible for our bad choices and take credit only for our good ones. Harry was abused as well and he didn't become a death eater. I think Severus was not as mature as Harry in this way. He needed to make the mistake before realizing it was one. Sort of like a child who has to touch the stove before he is convinced it burns as opposed to one that understands that when you tell him not to touch the stove, it's because it's going to hurt him.

Do you think Snape would have moved on if Lily had not died? Would he have turned to the good side in that case?

I think the death of Lily was the burn for him. I don't know what he would have done had she not dies but if I'm right about him, then he would have returned to the light sooner or later, sooner or later he would have either matured enough to realize the stove will burn him or would have touched it and gotten burnt. Either way, he'd realize he'd been an idiot to ever join the Death Eaters.

Why do you think Snape was so reluctant to approach Lily? Would he have been interested in her if she had not been magical?

Well I think Snape wasn't exactly a social butterfly. He was introverted and had quite a bad idea about himself so naturally, as a young teenage boy, he couldn't pluck up the courage to tell the beautiful girl he loves how he really feels. As for the second question...I couldn't say. He doesn't seem to have a problem with Muggles. But then again, him being such an introvert, I don't really think that he would have even dared talk to Lily in the first place, had he not had the excuse of telling her she's a witch.

How did Hogwarts effect the friendship between Snape and Lily? We see that up until fifth year they consider themselves to be "best friends", despite the house system. Do you think they both worked to maintain the friendship?

I think that they had a flawed relationship. In my opinion they could have both done a bit more to maintain the friendship although I think I hold Lily a bit more responsible. As his friend, she should have been there for him even more when he was heading the wrong way. She was more mature than him and she realized what a stupid mistake he was making whereas he didn't. Maybe, had she invested a little bit more time into their friendship, things would have turned out a bit different.

How would Snape's life have been different if he had managed to save their friendship?

I don't know. I assume he'd be a fair deal less miserable.

Snape is revealed to have been acting throughout the series out of love for Lily, how does this effect your view of his actions in the series - his "murder" of Dumbledore, his treatment of Sirius?

I've always believed in Snape. I've always known that there is something more driving him in his actions than met the eye. And I also had enough faith in Dumbledore to know he would never trust him so completely if he hadn't had rock solid evidence he was trustworthy and that he would never, ever, under any circumstance return to Voldemort. As for his treatment of Sirius...well that shows how childish he could be. He never really got the chance to grow up because he never really got a shot at a proper childhood. It also shows how deeply hurt he was by the treatment he had received from the Marauders.

How do the revelations of DH impact your view of Snape's treatment of Harry and Neville throughout the series?

I think Snape doesn't like incompetence and in his own way, he was trying to protect the two. The revelations in Dh haven't really changed my view about anything. They were more of a confirmation of what I'd believed all along.

Do you think he wanted or needed Harry's forgiveness on some level?

Yes. I think he wanted Harry to understand. I also think that in handing Harry his deepest secrets...he was handing himself to Harry. I think it was the ultimate sacrifice and from the epilogue, I'm sure that Harry understood what that gesture meant for him. He could have easily just handed Harry the bit where Dumbledore told him to kill him and told him about what Harry must do, just enough to clear his name and make sure Harry completes the plan. But he didn't, he gave him the whole thing, he handed himself to Harry.

Do you agree with the author's take on Snape's character as revealed in interviews?

In some ways. She hasn't talked much about him in interviews though, or if she has, I don't know about them.

Which elements do you think make Snape the most controversial character of the series?

Everything from the way he talks, moves to the way he acts. He's always a step ahead, always alert, always focused.

What do you think are Snape's major strengths? What are his major flaws?

His biggest flaw in my opinion is his inability to grow up, that is the origin of most of the characteristics that get him classified as a "deeply horrible person".

If you had to summarize Snape's character to someone who had never read the books what would you tell them?

I'd tell them he's complicated, stubborn, intelligent, introverted but has a kind heart, even though he tries very hard not to show that, he really does care about the students and the staff as well. I'd also stress that if you were to meet him, you'd better not show any signs of incompetence or else be prepared to endure his bullying.

What do you reckon Snape valued most in life?

I don't know...bravery, intelligence, love perhaps.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

First off, welcome to the COS forums. =^)

Secondly, I disagree with your response here. I don't think you could hold Lily more or less responsible for the ending of that relationship than Snape. In my mind, Snape was dead set on joining the Death Eaters and just didn't realize that he had set up this double standard where Lily and her blood status were concerned. I think as much as she tried to 'talk sense' into Snape it wouldn't have done any good. He's shown to be a pretty passive aggressive person and if she had laid down the law and said "you can't join the death eaters" he would have turned it around on her and questioned how loyal a friend she was being in not supporting his decisions. This also doesn't seem to be the kind of thing Lily would do seeing how she reacted to such a statement from Snape (about James when he says "I won't let you!")

You can't force a drug addict to see that they're destroying their own life and the lives of everyone around themselves, they have to come to that realization on their own or they'll never change their ways. You can't force someone to see that they're making a bad decision. Similarly, Snape had to come to the realization on his own that the Death Eaters were destroying his life and everything he loved or he wouldn't ever have the will or desire to leave them. It just took Lily's life being threatened for him to realize the mistake he had made and it so happened that it was too late to change her fate.

We also can't say with any amount of certainty that the reason Snape and Lily's friendship fell apart was because she alone didn't put in the effort. If Snape was immune to hearing what she had to say then she could put in all the effort in the world, devote all the time in the world to convincing him to change his mind and nothing would happen.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Thank you :)

Yes I see what you mean. I have said myself that he was the type of person who has to get burned before realizing that it doesn't do to play with fire. I probably didn't make myself very clear. I think that even though it might not have made any difference, she should have tried more. I know I would have. I'm not saying that Snape was doing a very good job either but then again he was the one about to get in trouble. As a friend, I know I would fight for him until he actually did join the Death Eaters and maybe even then if I could. It's a matter of principle more than it is of wether or not it would have made any difference. I hope it's clearer now :D

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

When Lily and James became a couple in their final year, it must have made Snape spend even more time with his death eater friends. I know from personal experience that stuff like this really hurts and if Snape felt the same, he'd have focused a lot on the stuff his buddies were planning.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

And heeded a lot less of the warnings Lily might have continued to voice.

Not only that, it seems Lily was one of, if not the only, good things in his life - once he lost her in any capacity all he had was the encouragement of his death eater friends.

It's my opinion that Lily tried as hard as she could get Snape to see the light but it was both of their stubborness coupled with her relationship with James being pit against Snape's Death Eater affiliation that really eneded their friendship. I think just as Lily didn't like Snape's choices in life, so to did Snape resent Lily's choices in life.

What i mean by this is that Snape knew Lily didn't like that he wanted to become a Death Eater. Lily, in turn, knew that Snape didn't like James in general. Any possible patching up of Snape and Lily's friendship during their sixth year might have been hindered by her softening attitude towards James (since I think the groundwork for the J/L relationship in 7th year was laid during their 6th year).

If she asked Snape what he sees in the death eaters that's so great he, passive aggressively, would ask her what she sees in James that's so great. If Lily tries to defend James, Snape would lay out a list of all the bad things he (James) had done to Snape personally and in general. If Lily tries to outline how terrible the death eaters are, Snape would retort with all the positive things he gets by being apart of them (friendship, commeradery, common purpose). Lily might reply by telling Snape they're basically brainwashing him into thinking there's anything positive about being a death eater and Snape would reply that James was brainwashing Lily into forgetting what a terrible person he was. The whole situation would dissolve into a big mess with each thinking the other was in some way out of their mind.

I'm not trying to turn this into a Snape v. James thing, I'm trying to keep this merely in the realm of what Snape believes and what Lily believes and how they didn't and couldn't see eye to eye, ultimately resulting in the impossibilty of their friendship being mended, just to be clear. :D Snape and Lily were simply too stubbon and had grown too far apart in their beliefs to ever really make up and to a certain extent, Snape's seduction into the Death Eaters was too far a long and the attraction too strong for Lily to be able to pull him back from it.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I think this is the basis on which sparrowinter is criticizing Lily, actually. She (literally, as well as figuratively) closed the door on their relationship, leaving Severus nothing to hold onto.

My own take on the canon is that their friendship ended both before Lily had a relationship with James, and before Severus had an affiliation with the Death Eaters. I believe we are shown it in "The Prince's Tale", and it occurs during the OWL week of their fifth year in school. Thus, I do not think either was a factor.

We do not know, based on the canon, that either 1) Snape indeed wanted to become a Death Eater during his fifth year, or that 2) Lily expressed a belief he did at any point prior to their break up scene. We are shown an earlier disagreement, but in that we see that Snape feels threatened by James' interest (possibly not reciprocated at that point) in Lily, and that Lily does not approve of some of Severus's friends in Slytherin House and their actions.

This ignores that Severus and Lily lived in the same community, in the Muggle world. To me, it would seem Lily would have made up her mind to repair matters in less than three months, if she did at all, and that if Severus worked up the courage to try again, he would have done so in the summer. (Personally, I think she did not; I think we would have seen more of the relationship between Severus and Lily if it had continued in any form. I do not believe he would have rejected any overture of hers.)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

there's this quote I really like which goes kind of like this: "A friendship that can end, never really began" and I think that's true. So either their friendship wasn't really that at all or it never actually ended, despite their arguments and differences and whatever. We don't really have any information at all about how Lily felt about Snape after that argument they had in their fifth or sixth year, can't recall exactly. :D Personally I like the second theory better but that's all I'm gonna say on the subject...don't want to push it too far :D

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

We know from the books that Snape always loved Lilly and even if he was mad at her he was still, in his own mind, a friend of to her. The question would be though if Lilly felt the same towards Snape given the fact the Death Eaters were killing people left and right(I am talking later in their lives, closer to Lillys death).

I would think that Lilly still had friendly feelings towards Snape, but would not have been seen with him around this time. I don't know much about wizards "hanging out" in their adult life, but I don't think a death eater and a member of the OOtP would ever been seen together having a drink of butterbeer.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Nothing about Severus Snape is passive aggressive, IMHO. To me, he's one of the most direct characters in the books. I think he genuinely could not see the difference between James and Sirius vs. Avery and Mulciber, and at the time, Lily didn't approve of James' behavior, either.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Right, he's certainly not passive aggressive. It appears from the memories we're given that Sev just has a problem finishing a sentence when he's around Lily. Typical behavior of a teenage boy in love IMO.:)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

This is where I think the House system did help come between Severus and Lily. Not only were they used to having more time together as children, and then were separated for the better part of their days at Hogwarts, there was also the prejudice against members of Slytherin House.

From the time they were nine, Lily was all Severus had, but their time together was very limited during school term. They couldn't even eat meals together. So, other than a few hours a week to take a walk or talk, each was pretty much forced to make their own way in the Houses they were sorted into. Once Lily shut Severus out of her life he had nowhere else to turn other than to those who were showing him "kindness": the fledgling DEs.

(We see examples of this later with Harry and Co. Other than a "romantic" attraction toward Cho and the friendship that Luna pretty much forced on them, there was no other mingling with other Houses, especially Slytherin.)

IMO, it started ending when they entered Hogwarts. The thing that had attracted Lily to Severus was not his good looks or winning personality, obviously, but his knowledge of magic -- something Lily was anxious to learn about. I do think they became friends, but not "best friends," at least not on Lily's part.

Then, when Lily got to Hogwarts and the whole world of magic was laid at her feet she didn't need Severus anymore. There was, as I mentioned, also the prejudice against Slytherins, and for her to be friends with someone who hung out with wanna-be DEs, whether he intended to be one or not, was obviously causing her Gryffindor friends to put pressure on her ("None of my friends understand why I even talk to you...")

I think she was, like so many other girls in her class, attracted to James. He was good looking, athletic, funny. I don't think it became serious until their 7th year, but probably started to grow during their 6th, after she'd ended her friendship with Severus.

Both Lily and Severus had tried to warn the other about their "friends" and what they might be up to. Severus tried to warn her (and tried to find out something concrete to show her) about James and the Marauders. Lily tried to warn him about the DEs and what they were up to. Neither would listen to the other. Eventually, this took it's toll.

Those are both excellent points and I think that #1 gets missed a lot. Other than hanging around with Avery and Mulciber, we don't see anything that definitely proves Severus, in his 5th year, intended to become a DE. Using nasty names or defending his friends for something that they've done doesn't prove that he was planning to throw his lot in with Voldemort. IMO, it shows he was just trying, maybe incorrectly, but trying to fit in with his Housemates. (We're not even shown what Avery and Mulciber did and have only Lily's word that it was Dark Magic -- and we are not specifically told if she witnessed the incident with Mary Macdonald or was told about it herself.)

While she may have said it during some conversation we don't see, not once in the memories that show Severus and Lily together does she indicate concern for him, personally. It's more about how it looks for him to be doing what he's doing and the image he's portraying. Never once does she say, "Sev, I'm worried about you and what might happen if you end up like Avery and Mulciber." Instead, she criticizes them which just causes him to try to defend them, the same way she defends the Marauders when he tries to warn her about them.

He, on the other hand, does express concern for her and what might happen since he's pretty much figured out that Lupin is a werewolf and, IMO, he's afraid for her safety. He doesn't come out and say it because he can't prove it yet. So, he follows them and almost finds out first hand. Then, he's sworn to secrecy and cannot warn her anyway.

A lot of Severus' problems with Lily seemed to come from his inability to express himself clearly to her. He stammers and fumbles about a lot when he's with her, and there's not a memory that we're shown where she is not ragging on him for something, which seems to make him more nervous than ever. Many times she doesn't even let him finish sentences but finishes them for him with what she is thinking, not what he would have said.

I think that's what caused a lot of his inability to clearly explain himself during their final discussion. He was frustrated because he couldn't tell her what was really going on and he was being accused of being ungrateful for having his life "saved." That, and the fact that Lily wouldn't let him finish a thought but kept interrupting him. Yes, she was justifiably angry. But, he was her best friend and up to that time had never done anything to hurt her. He had raised her up on a pedestal because he loved her, and she didn't like that either. No matter what, she seemed determined to end the relationship then and there.

There's no indication that she was afraid of him, and, as was said before, no proof that he was definitely going to become a DE. She assumed that he had embraced those beliefs because he uttered an extremely loathsome name while under extreme duress. What had happened to him earlier that afternoon doesn't seem to have any effect on her judgement of him or why he'd said what he did. No, he shouldn't have said it, but while we know that Severus didn't care a lot for Muggles, we don't see anything that shows he was a "blood purist" who wanted to kill Mudbloods.

Lily was definitely justified in being irate with her friend, but, unless there was a lot more going on than we were shown, the use of a nasty, demeaning name is not reason enough to end a 6-year friendship. She knew he'd heard that word in his House numerous times a day. But, she must not have heard him use it (she'd heard that he had, but doesn't say she'd actually heard him) or she'd have ragged on him about that in one of the memories, I'm sure.

IMO, she was ready to end the friendship and that incident gave her the reason. Also, I think when she got back to her common room her Housemates all jumped on the chance to tell her every bad thing they'd ever heard about Severus, whether it was true or rumored. So, when she went out to meet him she showed no pity for a boy who'd vowed to sleep by the doorway and wait until she came out to apologize for what he'd done. He took responsibility, felt guilt, and tried to make amends. But, she was having none of it.

I would guess Lily made herself pretty scarce from places she thought she might run into Severus. And, even though he knew where she lived, I doubt if he would have approached her to try to reconcile. She'd made it pretty clear that it was over and I doubt he'd have put himself up for another berating and dismissal from her presence by going to her home and trying to talk to her.

Another "welcome," sparrowinwinter. :welcome:

That's a very interesting quote. It honestly takes two to have a "friendship." And, a really close friendship takes a lot of emotional investment. I guess it's up to everyone's interpretation as to who was emotionally invested in that one: whether it was one, both, or neither.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

DH, The Prince's Tale “…I never meant to call you mudblood, it just—” “Slipped out?” There was no pity in Lily’s voice. “It’s too late. I’ve made excuses for you for years. None of my friends can understand why I even talk to you! You and your precious little Death Eater friends. You see? You don’t even deny it! You don’t even deny that’s what you’re all aiming to be. You can’t wait to join You Know Who, can you?” He opened his mouth but closed it without speaking.

She most definitely knew.

SWM happened at the end of their fifth year - the quote above is him apologizing for that incident, likely the night it happened, so still fifth year.

Even if she never said the words "I don't like that you want to become a Death Eater" it's highly unlikely that he didn't know how she felt about Death Eaters, Voldemort and the friends he hung around with. In fact, he definitely did know how she felt because she told him in a previous memory ("I don't like who you're hanging around with").

Snape changes the subject to James so that he doesn't have to defend his proto-Death Eater friends' actions to Lily's face since he knows she doesn't like them (at least IMO - it's quite a flagrant subject change). He turns the conversation back on her by comparing Avery and Mulciber's actions with James's actions and asking her to defend James like she's asking him to defend Avery and Mulciber. And it works; she is effectively side tracked by the discussion about James. (Whether she liked James at that point is a topic for the Lily thread, but I believe she did, at least a little bit.)

There are a lot of explanations, IMO, for why Snape and Lily wouldn't have interacted that summer the first one being the most obvious: The mudblood incident happened at the end of the year and she continued to resistance to his apologies all summer or just flat out refused to see him. Alternately, he could have been so ashamed of himself that he didn't even approach her at home and when they went back to school he sees that she's getting chummy with James all of a sudden and doesn't want to apologize anymore. I can think of lots more but they get pretty unlikely pretty quickly so I won't bore you with them.

Snape passive-aggressively bullies Harry throughout the books using his possission as a teacher to take little jabs at Harry over and over and obviously gets pleasure from doing it. He's never formally accused of bullying Harry because he never overtly does it, it's done with little comments and point deductions and detentions for stupid reasons...

He speaks cryptically so as to instill a feeling of insecurity in Harry/others as he so often does througout the books (for good reason, he uses this behavior to great effect in his spying) and he is deliberately obstructive when Umbridge asks him for more veritiserum to question Harry with at the end of OOTP and he replies "Certainly [I can make some more]... It takes a full moon cycle to mature so I should have it ready for you in around a month." He could have simply told her he didn't have anymore but instead he snidely suggests that he could make more but that she has to wait a month to get it. Most people read this as a funny way to deny Umbridge what she wants but it's very passive aggressive. Umbridge even comments that he's being deliberately unhelpful.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

She says "you don't deny it", but in what you cited, we see he has no opportunity to. As he gathers his thoughts to say something in response to her assorted comments, he is left looking at the door to the common room.

In other words, the citation shows Lily believed Snape wanted to be a Death Eater by the end of fifth year, but it in no way shows he actually did. He does nto confirm it. And given Snape's reaction to this accusation, I do not think it is one she has made prior. (We certainly did not see such a scene). So, no, I definitely don't think he knew she thought this before the breakup scene, or knew she would disapprove. I don't think she ever raised the question before this scene.

As I indicated, this is the only thing we know he knew - that she disapproved of his friends Mulciber and Avery. However, that this was because they were or planned to become Death Eaters was never mentioned in the books, and I personally believe, never actually discussed between these two characters until their breakup scene. I do not think it is at all obvious he must have known how she felt about Voldemort, or even the use, generally, of the word "Mudblood". Again because he seems blindsided by the discussion they have when he attempts to apologize to her.

This is exactly what I believe happened. After three months, I don't see that he'd have any reason to try again once school started and they had a lot less time to see each other! And she never indicated a change in her stance after.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I have to strongly disagree. Unless Lily was a mind reader, she did not "definitely know" anything other than Severus had friends in the House he'd been sorted into who were Death Eater wanna-be's.

The only thing this conversation shows to me is another time when Lily took control of the conversation and did most of the talking and little listening. His opening his mouth to speak and then closing it shows, to me, that he'd just given up even trying to reason with her. She'd already accused him in the same conversation of being ungrateful for James saving his life -- something else she "knew."

Yes, he had "little Death Eater friends," he was in Slytherin House and they had befriended him. When he came into Hogwarts he was warmly greeted by Lucius Malfoy, Prefect from Slytherin House. I have no doubt that, since they were recruiting, the DEs would have seen a lonely, semi-geeky kid as a perfect target for them.

There is still no statement from Severus in his 5th year, nor any solid evidence, other than associating with students from his own House who were fledgling DEs, that Severus wanted to be one himself. He never said he did. He never, in any of the conversations in the memories, defended Voldemort or the DEs. He did defend his friends for what he considered a prank, the same way Lily defended the Marauders. And, he may have known as much about everything they did as Lily knew about everything the Marauders did. Since we don't really know for sure what happened with Mary Macdonald, we only have Lily's word that it was "Dark Magic," and we don't even know that she witnessed it. She could have just heard about it. She didn't say she saw it. I think if Lily had seen someone use Dark Magic against another student that she was well thought of enough by the teachers to have gone to one of them about it and been believed.

IMO, the above does not prove he was planning to be a DE. It only proved that he knew Lily well enough to know when she had shut down and it was useless to try to talk to her anymore. Silence is not an admission.

Again, she didn't know that he wanted to be a DE, she only assumed it. But, some concern for him, rather than how his image affected what her friends thought of her, would have been nice. He was, after all, her "best" friend.

There were two years after the end of their friendship for him to have made a decision to join the DEs. At 15 I doubt he really had a good idea of what he wanted to be, but I doubt he wanted to be a blood-purist killer.

As I said, he went to pieces every time he tried to talk to her. He stammered, stuttered, changed the subject, started to talk then just closed his mouth. He was, IMO, always on the defensive when he was with her because she was always on him about something. I think he was at a point where he was "hen pecked" by his best friend and used whatever defense, such as changing the subject, that he could to just get a toe hold in the conversation.

I've heard many an argument between kids over their friends and the "well your friend did this" and "well your friend did that" is a pretty normal pattern. If Severus couldn't defend them, which may show he didn't approve of what they did, but also didn't want to lose the argument, his best defense would have been a strong offense: going after what the Marauders did. Once Severus heard her put-down of James he was happy, anyway. That was the reassurance he was looking for.

We know he was sorry, but there is no indication in any of the books that he tried to apologize during the summer after the Mudblood Incident. I don't see him even making the attempt because he knew Lily well enough to know she'd just shoot him down, again. He knew when she turned her back on him that night at the common room door that it was over, IMO. I don't think it had to do with how ashamed he was. I'm sure he was embarrassed and deeply and truly sorry. But, I don't think he was ashamed. He had called out in a moment of intense frustration and anguish, and he knew he wouldn't have called her anything like that otherwise. So, while he was sorry, I don't think he was ashamed. If he'd done it on purpose, then he would have been ashamed. But, IMO, he did it as a reflex to what was happening with him at the time.

I'm not sure he actually got pleasure from it. I think it was just his immaturity showing. He wasn't seeing Harry, he was seeing James Potter's son. He seemed to even separate Harry from being Lily's son, at times, possibly because of the physical similarity to James. Some scars, as Dumbledore stated, run too deep to heal.

The comments he made were childish and petty at times. At other times, such as Harry's confronting him about Lupin's whereabouts when Severus was subbing for him, they were in line with the action going on. Harry was way out of line through that whole scene and deserved what he got.

While there were a few, I don't think there were that many point deductions, and, as far as both them and the detentions, many were earned by Harry's actions.

It has also been argued that having Harry in detention with him meant Severus knew where he was and that he wasn't getting into trouble or risking his life. That may or may not be the case, but most of the times Harry got detention, he deserved it, IMO.

I saw his statement to Umbridge about the Veritaserum as him just having a bit of fun at her expense. It would have been very un-Severus like to just say, "Sorry, I'm all out." It's like when she asked whether he'd been unsuccessful each time he had applied for the DADA position and he answered "Obviously." He could have just said, "Yes."

If we look at Severus career as a teacher, he started when he was about 21. That meant that he'd only been out of Hogwarts for 4 years, so there were students he was teaching who also knew him as a student, or maybe had heard stories from an older sibling about "Snivellus" and how he was a weakling who was pushed around. In order to establish a sense of respect, I think that Severus came in, dressed in his flowing black robes and projecting a snarkish, aloof aura that said "I'll brook no nonsense from dunderheads." The cryptic way of speaking, IMO, was a way of doing that.

I think if he'd been such a truly unfair and nasty teacher the twins would have commented on that at sometime during the series. If anyone (or two) would have seemed to have been prime targets, it would have been them. They were always into something and I can't imagine that he didn't catch them a few times. But they don't seem to have any animosity toward him. None of the students seem to like him, but no one really complains about him that much except for Harry. And, we've already touched on their interactions.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Actually, we are given this quote from Ron. I'd guess Ron is most likely to have heard this from the twins, since Percy would not have had problems with Snape (in my opinion :D) and Ron's other brothers are so much older than Ron I doubt they would have been discussing Snape around Ron at a time Ron was old enough to care or pay attention.

PS/SS This was so unfair that Harry opened his mouth to argue, but Ron kicked him behind their cauldron. "Don't push it," he muttered, "I've heard Snape can turn very nasty." As they climbed the steps out of the dungeon an hour later, Harry's mind was racing and his spirits were low. He'd lost two points for Gryffindor in his very first week -- why did Snape hate him so much? "Cheer up," said Ron, "Snape's always taking points off Fred and George. Can I come and meet Hagrid with you?"

Of course, a teacher taking points off Fred and George all the time is not a very meaningful datum...;)

On the other hand, Ernie seems to like Snape OK. He comments positively on his DADA class, and expresses no surprise at any "change" in Snape.

This is certainly the simplest supposition - we are shown nothing further. But I could see him deciding maybe he should give her time to cool off and try one last time.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

If I may nitpick though, what Lily knew or suspected isn't really confirmed as a fact simply because she said it aloud... Maybe in some conversational schemes it might be rather damning that he didn't respond, but I wouldn't assume that is the case here, since, frankly, Lily sort of railroaded him out of the conversation. Whatever the truth of the Death Eater situation may have been, I think the better conclusion is that Snape knew she would never believe anything he said again.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Ron shrugs it off as though Severus taking points off is normal in this scene. He doesn't seem to think he's exceptionally terrible for it. And, I'd guess the twins earned losing the points they did. And Ron's statement: "I've heard Snape can turn very nasty," indicates that he's not always nasty but can be that way when pushed.

I don't know. It took him so long to even work up the courage to talk to Lily the first time. After she berated him and turned her back on him the way she did outside the common room; the things she said to him, I'm not sure he'd have wanted to try to face her again.

He may have thought about it, because I think he would have wanted to have her forgive him and possibly try to save their friendship, but, I also think he knew her well enough to know when she had shut down. So, I don't think he would have actually approached her during the summer or even after starting back to school. If she had given him any indication that she was willing to try to make up once they got back to Hogwarts, he might have tried to approach her. But, I don't think she ever did. I think she had wanted him out of her life for a good while before that, and was relieved to be rid of him and move on with her friends.

I've always thought, reading through the conversations in the memories, that Lily always had control of them and Severus had a hard time getting a word in. Even when he did, she didn't really seem to listen. She always seemed to have her mind made up and she was going to tell him how she felt and what she thought, and he should do as she told him. I'm sure there were others where they maybe just talked about things. He might have shown the ones he did to Harry because they showed how their friendship deteriorated and finally ended.