Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

While that is a bit of a possibility, it also reinforces Dumbledore's ideology of the "greater good". Sacrifices would have to be made in order for the prophecy to unfold. Did Dumbledore know that the boy in the prophecy would survive Voldemort's attack? Such things would imply that Dumbledore anticipated Lily and James' deaths, and somehow calculated that Lily would die to save Harry (impossibly determining that the two were in the same room at the time, and that Lily would be shielding Harry...), that Snape would have the courage to ask Voldemort to spare Lily, that Voldemort would agree, and that the spell would backfire. I think suggesting that is a bit of a stretch. In addition, it seems as though Dumbledore went to great lengths to protect Lily and James...would him wanting to conquer Voldemort through this particular sequence not contradict that? It appears as though he never wanted Voldemort to find them in the first place...

About letting Snape go freely to his master, I do not think Dumbledore fully knew what had gone on. Perhaps he felt that he had not been overheard... To be honest, it is as unlikely as the first.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

First time posting in here so please bear with me .

What I wanted to ask was this - Who turned Peter Pettigrew over to Voldemort's side ? who made first contact with Peter and got him to become a spy? I believe it was Snape and here's why . In the beginning Snape was a loyal DE ,I can see Voldemort at one of his meetings with the DE's asking about getting a spy inside the OoTP and Snape suggesting Peter . Snape knew a great deal about Peter and I feel it would have been easy for him to approach Peter and coerce him into thinking the Dark Lord wanted him.
How ironic and tragic it would be if Snape was responsible for Peter being the spy that got Lily killed . I feel that would have greatly enhanced Snape's remorse over her death.

Any Ideas on this ?

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Hmmm...I don't quite see it, and here's why: before DH, it would have been a possibility, as we did not know what side of the war Snape was on. However, now that we do, I don't see much of a reason why Snape would want to shield the man who turned over Lily, even if at the expense of Sirius, by withholding that information from Dumbledore for twelve years. His reaction to Sirius in PoA is also incredibly violent. Before DH, I think we were led to believe Lupin's word that it was a case of an old schoolboy grudge. However, with the information DH gives us, Snape gets a much more believable motivation for his hatred of Sirius at the time. If he'd known Peter was the real culprit, would he have entered that shack and turned his wand on Sirius? Or would he have searched for Pettigrew? I'm betting he'd go for the real culprit.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

While I agree that it would be very ironic I just don’t see it as a feasible possibility. If it had been Severus who had turned Peter then Severus would as soon as he changed sides to save Lily have told Dumbledore that the Spy in the OofP was Peter – but thi is not information that Dumbledore had. He only knew that there was a spy not who it was. Also Severus believed that it was Sirius who betrayed the Potters and was there for responsible (in his view / as well as himself) for Lily’s death – surely he just would not have believed this if he knew that Peter was the spy.

I guess I’d file it under ‘interesting idea but contradicts too much cannon’ – but hey that’s just my opinion :)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Additionally, if Snape knew that Peter was a spy he would have told Dumbledore when he turned spy for Dumbledore.

Snape must have had a hard time living with Peter in HBP though.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

If Snape knew Peter was a spy for Voldemort I think he would have informed Dumbledore when he met him on the hillside to ask him to protect Lily. That was when Snape promised to do "anything" to keep Lily safe. So it makes sense to me that if Snape he knew Peter was working for Voldemort he would have passed the information onto Dumbledore at that time.

Edit: Also as Peter and Severus didn't exactly get on as students at Hogwarts, I don't see Snape as a likely person to approach Peter.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Well I don't know about loyalty. I mean that would explain why he told Voldy the prophesy but Snape seems to be loyal to those he admires/cares about rather that to those who treat him well. His attitude towards Dumbledore clearly indicates that he admired and cared for the man. I really doubt he felt any sort of affection towards Voldy, I'm not even sure he had much respect for him either. I could be wrong though.

Oh yes, I'm sure Voldemort knew Snape was a particularly skilled Occlumens. Only he thought he was a particularly skilled Legilimens. I wonder what Snape thought when Voldy tried to pick his brain "This dunderhead is trying to get into my head again. What gory images of me murdering someone should I feed him this time...decisions, decisions." :lol:

True, but it's worth a try isn't it? You're never gonna try and break something that you don't know exists. There is a chance it wouldn't have even occurred to Voldemort that a Memory Charm had been cast on Snape.

Hm that's an interesting idea. It could very well be so. Except that he would have had to perform the Memory Charm before hearing the rest of the Prophesy, right after kicking Snape out of there :D

Definitely not. It's an interesting idea but there's just no way. It doesn't fit with anything. I think it would be redundant to repeat what everyone else has said so I'll just say I agree with them.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

OK thanks for all your responces I'll file my idea under not possible and move on. :D

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I do not believe Dumbledore could suss out every twist and turn that would happen (nor count on it) in the few moments it took for that scene to play out. But he could have instantly understood that Voldemort needed to know about the prophecy and voila! here's a Death Eater (or a wannabe) at the door, I'll let him take what he's heard back to the Dark Lord. At that moment he also could have apprehended that if the Dark Lord attacked his chosen usurper and the child didn't survive, it probably wasn't the right one or the prophecy was worthless.

The question could also be raised as to why DD didn't just outright confront LV and take him out-as we know now he was master of the Elder Wand. Personally, I believe it was because DD already knew that LV had made at least one horcrux by that time. When the prophecy came along, he realized it would have included getting rid of the horcrux(es) as well and so let events unfold.

Not at all. DD didn't need to see the beginning from the end to understand that LV would need to know of the prophecy in order to choose his destroyer. He just needed to get the ball rolling and then take advantage of situations as they arose. I think in that way he trusted the prophecy to a greater extent than he let anyone know.

One of those situations turned out to be Snape's love for Lily. DD could not have anticipated such a thing occurring, but when it did he used it to his (and the world's) benefit. He now knew who LV had chosen and did everything possible to protect the family. And turned the screws on Snape to secure a spy in the enemy camp.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Indeed. And while I do believe that Dumbledore works towards what he believes to be the end, disregarding the deaths that may be caused, I do not think his actions, in this particular case, mirror any of this. I too drew similar conclusions to what you have drawn, but his actions to protect the Potters do not speak for this scenario. It is by a stroke of luck, of spontaneous decision, that the Potters were found. Unless, of course, one wants to speculate that the idea to change Secret Keepers was Dumbledore's plan all along...:rotfl:.

I do not believe that, at that moment, Dumbledore knew that Voldemort had created horcruxes. I believe a statement in HBP suggests that Dumbledore's suspicions about Voldemort methods for immortality were only confirmed when the destroyed Tom Riddle's diary was presented to him. And of course, there is also the fact that for all Dumbledore's power, Voldemort is an equal. Confronting the enemy under such circumstances would be unwise...

But yes. I do believe that we can conclude that, to Dumbledore, defeating Voldemort's "mortal" body would not be the end.

Oh, I agree, he trusted the prophecy. But, if the events did not unfold in his favor, he would have an even larger defeat in his hands. The death of two very important Order members, perhaps the entire Order rebelling against his leadership, Snape rendered useless, etc, etc. But maybe he'd be willing to take the risk? I, personally, and as I have stated before, do not think his actions display any such thought processes on his part.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

So sorry-I'm afraid I don't understand your comment. My theory wouldn't use any memory charms at all, so I'm not quite sure what your comment infers. Clarification? I can be a little thick sometimes.


I'm not sure quite sure why you are connecting DD protecting the Potters as contradicting him letting (even wanting) Snape to take the prophecy to LV. Would you mind providing further explanation?

I don't believe DD had anything to do with changing Secret Keepers, but, again, I'm not seeing how that is related to DD letting Snape go to LV with the prophecy.

In The Prince's Tale, after Lily's death, DD tells Snape:

DH: The Prince's Tale "Help me protect Lily's son. "He does not need protection. The Dark Lord has gone--" "The Dark Lord will return, and Harry Potter will be in terrible danger when he does."

Snape, along with most of the Death Eaters, thought LV dead. How is it that DD does not? Riddle told Harry in CoS that DD kept an annoyingly close eye on him after the incident with Hagrid and when DD became headmaster he removed books with horcrux references from the library. Why would he do that if he didn't suspect Riddle? In HBP DD said that the diary was proof that LV was making horcruxes-to me that sounds like DD had strong suspicions beforehand that that is what Riddle was up to.

I will have to respectfully disagree. I think DD could have blown him out of the water anytime he wanted to but he couldn't because of the horcruxes. DD suspected that 16 yr old Riddle had already made a horcrux-decades before he started gathering followers and trying to take over the world. Now if a reference should surface explicitly stating they were equal, I would have to modify my opinion.

At the time there was no way DD would know that Order members would even be involved.

Snape was not yet DD's spy-nor would he become so unless LV knew of the prophecy (which DD could not have foreseen in the moment he decided to let Snape go.)

We don't actually get to see DD's actions in the situation-it's Trelawny relating the story. We do know that the barkeeper catches Snape at the keyhole and opens the door so that Trelawny and DD see who is there, but we have no more of the story. Since we now know the barkeeper was Aberforth, DD's brother, I think Aberforth would have let his brother decide what to do with Snape, else why open the door? imo.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Originally Posted by snapes_witch
In addition to all that, when Voldemort was restored in the graveyard (GoF) he fully intended to kill Snape for having 'left me forever'. I'd like to have been a beetle on the wall to overhear Snape's talking Voldemort out of that!!

I was always under the impression that Karkaroff was the one Voldemort was referring to in. I find it a bit hard to believe that Voldemort would have even heard Snape out had he been referring to him.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Snape confirms this in his conversation with Bellatrix at Spinner's End (HBP, pg. 29): 'Yes, the Dark Lord thought that I had left him forever, but he was wrong.'

Karkaroff was the coward.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I don't mean loyalty specifically to Voldemort, rather loyalty to the group he was part of.

IMO memory charms leaves traces that can be detected. Voldemort would have had no reason to suspect that Bertha Jorkins had one, yet he found it. I would imagine that Voldemort would routinely check his death eaters for meddling of this sort particularly the ones he sent out for spying. In this particular case, the only real loser would be Snape. No matter how powerful Dumbledore's spell, Voldemort would have broken through leaving a fit for nothing Snape behind.

IMO that is why Dumbledore let Snape go. Short of kidnapping Snape, there wasn't anything he could do to prevent Voldemort from hearing the prophecy. If Dumbledore willfully let Snape go with the intention of spurring Voldemort into action, I think he would be just as culpable for Potter's deaths as Snape was. It would also vindicate James' decision to go for one of his friends as Secret Keeper rather than Dumbledore.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Well you quoted my post in which I asked why DD didn't put a Memory Charm on Snape right after he heard the prophecy. This was your answer

And I said that it's an interesting idea, only that, if he were to cast a Memory charm on Snape, he would have to have cast it before hearing the rest of the prophecy, right after he caught Snape. I hope it's clearer now.

That's possible. Although I don't think DE were exactly the type of people to inspire loyalty and Snape doesn't seem the type to give his loyalty lightly. But again, I could be wrong.

Hm that's a good point. I haven't thought about it before.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Well, if we are to assume that Dumbledore wished for Voldemort to set the prophecy into "live play", shall we say, then is it not necessary for him to meet his opponent? If that is what Dumbledore truly wanted from Snape's escape, then why is it that Dumbledore's actions seem to suggest that his main efforts were concentrated into making sure that Voldemort never reached the Potters in the first place? If he wanted the prophecy in action, would he not have (secretly, of course) allowed for such a meeting between Voldemort and his supposed "vanquisher"? He knew the full contents of the prophecy, after all. He knew that the one Voldemort would be after would be a child, and that this child would no doubt be targeted. So why does he go through such efforts? I am not ruling out the possibility of Dumbledore playing a game of chess with himself with regards to the prophecy, for I too have considered this theory, but I am questioning this little tid bit. Do you think that Dumbledore's actions show his wish to see the prophecy play out?

Of course, maybe after realizing who the prophecy targeted, he decided to back out of his original scheme... I find this unlikely, personally.


Well, yes, I think I did originally acknowledge that he held suspicions, but I do not believe that Dumbledore knew which method of immortality Riddle utilized...

:rotfl: I think "blown out of the water" is something only fans, and Dumbledore's supporters, would consider as worthy of describing the outcome of a duel with Voldemort. I personally think that Dumbledore himself would disagree, and rightfully so. I do not believe that Dumbledore so easily underestimated Voldemort's power, and I do honestly think that he himself thought that Voldemort was, in fact, equal, and perhaps even superior. But I will not go into that, for this is not the place. This is merely one reason for Dumbledore not confronting Voldemort. The other, as you say, is because he knew Riddle had somehow (though he did not know of the method) achieved a form of immortality.



True. Did Dumbledore not know when Lily and Alice would be giving birth, then?

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Would risk letting LV get to the child who will be marked his equal? I believe that Dumbledore wanted to protect the Potters so that Harry could grow up and that his parents could live to train him. What defense or ability would a child that young have to defeat the dark lord? This assumes that Dumbledore did not know of the "different kind of magic" that Lilly used when she died for her son.



As stated above how can anyone believe that the "vanquisher" would be able to do it as a child. I think that Dumbledore heard the prophecy of a child being born who would have the power to vanquish the dark lord. Upon hearing this Dumbledore must have thought that the child will grow up to be the vanquisher, and is not born that way. Thus, he would need protection so that he could live.


I do think that his actions were to put the prophecy into action and let it go. He "allowed" Harry to live and to be raised like a pig for slaughter.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

To be "marked as his equal" would suggest that Dumbledore wished for the two to meet. As Voldemort must do the "marking" himself, if we are to say that Dumbledore wanted the prophecy to be put into effect, then he most definitely wanted a confrontation to occur. At what time is perhaps the most important question, though... Perhaps, going by this theory, he would have wanted to protect Harry until he could fend for himself. However, would this work? Would the power that "the Dark Lord knows not" even come into play anymore? Because of the wording of the prophecy, I do not think that it would even be considerable. Lily was given a chance to live. She would not move aside. If Harry could fend for himself, then Lily dying for his sake would be a sacrifice on its own, but I cannot see it necessarily being one where her "choice" is taken into consideration...

In the prophecy, I believe the sequence goes from "marked as his equal" to "the power the Dark Lord knows not". I think, personally, that we can infer that the marking itself allowed for this power to be born. And Dumbledore may have interpreted as such as well...


Hmm...I do wonder what Dumbledore thought about the power of love, though. He most definitely knew that it was Voldemort's weakness. Naturally, he knew that Snape had asked Voldemort to spare Lily...


:rotfl: "Pig for slaughter" would imply that Dumbledore intended to sacrifice him. As Dumbledore did not know at the time that Harry was a horcrux, it would be more like raising him as a savior.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Okay guys, this is going a bit off topic :D

So I have another subject to discuss. In PoA, after he was insulted by the Marauders map he called for Lupin. I wonder why, he didn't know that Sirius, James and Pettigrew were Animagi so I don't know if the names Moony, Padfoot, Wormtail and Prongs meant much to him. He seemed to suspect that Lupin might know something about the map though. He asks him if he doesn't think Harry got it "directly from the manufacturers" and I think he's suggesting that Lupin gave it to him. Could he have seen the Marauders use it at school and remembered it? Or did he, as usual, guess right?

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I really don't think he had to know that the maruders were Animagi to know that the names the map used were nicknames the four used for each other - all he had to do was hear them use them while they were at school and judging by what Harry saw in Snapes Worst Memory they used those nicknames habitually.

So no I don't think he was guessing at all but I don't think he new they were Animagi either :)