Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I had thought that someone gave Snape the nickname Prince. I just figured that it was giving by Lily because she admired him. But, now I am not so sure. I have read a lot of the posts and I think that maybe Snape did name himself the "half-blood prince". Sometimes, I wonder if Lily worked with Snape on potions. Of course, this is my opinion only.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I never got the impression that Lily "admired" Snape, I thought she was interested in him because he knew what she could do and had an explanation for why she could do it but I don't think it was ever admiration per se. It also doesn't seem in character for her to give him the name "Prince" but alas, this is not the Lily thread...

I also never got the impression that Snape's abilities in potions were learned from Lily - I thought, if anything, they might have been equally good at that subject, based on the kinds of comments Slughorn made about Lily.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Both Severus and Lily seemed to have had a natural talent in Potions and probably helped each other in their studies of the subject while they were friends. This is one of the reasons I'm not clear as to why Lily was not aware of the reason for Severus' interest in the Dark Arts. As his "best friend" you'd think they would have talked about that more than just her telling him she didn't like it. In order to be able to protect one's self from something, you have to have a pretty good knowledge of it.

I often wonder if he was studying them so that he could possibly help protect Lily from the dark days ahead? Maybe he was afraid if he said that to her, though, she'd have assured him she didn't need his protection and might have even been offended that he thought she did, ending up with one of her "nose in the air" exits. Since we really don't see him using them, and the second-hand "knowledge" of his abilities in the Dark Arts were from biased sources, we really don't know for sure why he was studying them. IMO, he did not set out to be a DE from the time he entered Hogwarts and didn't get serious about it until after he and Lily parted.

We aren't told when Lily was invited to join the "Slug Club," or, even though Slughorn says Severus was one of his best students, if he was invited to join or participated (somehow I don't see him in a group like that). That would have been a bit of a help to know.

It was Severus' Sixth Year book that had his nickname in it, which I think he "revived" after he and Lily split up to give himself a bit of a boost. By this time whatever he and Lily had learned together each should have been able to build on. We see Severus' abilities in his book. We're told about Lily's from Slughorn. They both seem to have been very accomplished.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Perhaps it's one of those things that someone just can't understand. I get in trouble for using personal examples but I can't think of any other way to make my point: my best friend loves chemistry, her degree is in it, her job uses it and I totally don't get it. :) Is it the equations? The science of it? Does she feel like it's the root of all life? Is it just that she's good at it? I don't know. I feel like Lily might have a similar feeling about Snape and the dark arts; is his interest in them acedemic? Emotional? Is it simply that he's good at them? Is it that he's fascinated by why people would use them? How they were invented? I think Lily sees the dark arts as pure evil, something to use against others, something dangerous and not to be triffled with, she sees them in a very black and white way. I think Snape is drawn to their power, their mystery, to the people who use them, I think he sees them in shades of grey and I don't think Snape or Lily understands why the other views the dark arts like they do.

I agree with Lily's probably reaction to this situation but I disagree that protecting Lily was Snape's motivation for his interest in the dark arts.

I think if Snape had been invited he would have joined if Lily had joined. I think he was very introverted as a child and having a friend like Lily who he could go along with would have been the deciding factor, especially if he had been invited to join after his crush on Lily had formed.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I am still undecided about why he would choose “Half Blood Prince” as his nickname. It’s hard to know what was on his mind while he was brainstorming it, because we don’t know exactly when he came up with it. For example, if he was using this nickname before SWM, I would guess that maybe Avery & Mulciber were starting to rub off on him, and adopting this nickname was his way of associating himself with pure-blood ideology (emphasizing the magical half of his blood, from the pov that half-bloods are superior to muggles & muggleborns).

However, if it was adopted after SWM, I would choose a different interpretation. I would think that he would be of a very different mind using the word “Half-Blood” to describe himself if he had just lost his best friend over calling her a “Mudblood”. In this case, it would make more sense if “Half-Blood” was his way of dissociating himself from pure-blood supremacy, with “Prince” having something of a double meaning (pride in his personal lineage, and on a more symbolic level, his opinion that all magical people were superior to muggles). So putting the three words together, HBP would mean something like ~ “I may not be good enough by some arbitrary magical standard, but I am still proud of being magical. I live among muggles as a “Prince” among commoners. I am “royalty” among peasants.” ~ Very much like what Dumbledore believed in his youth, with Gellert Grindelwald.

I think this is a very good point. Also, considering the stigma against squibs, I think it’s reasonable to say that there was a general preference for magic over non-magic in the wizarding world. Ultimately, I think Snape’s dislike of muggles as a young boy can be traced back to a combination of cultural values & discord in his homelife. He may have been aware of the issue of blood-supremacy in the wizarding world, but I don’t think he held this prejudice himself as a child. I think it became an influence only after he started school, and even then, I’m not sure that he ever bought into it completely.

I agree. I don't think the memories Snape gave to Harry were supposed to be representative of their normal everyday exchanges (I don't think there was a daily fiasco with Petunia, for example). I think they highlight certain mistakes that Snape made in the course of their friendship, but I imagine they spent most of their days as youngsters playing, telling stories, discussing magic, and perhaps studying together once they started school. I also agree that it had to be a pretty solid friendship for JK to say that Lily “certainly loved him as a friend”, and for Lily to have defended him for so long to her Gryffindor friends.

When I think of Snape & his thing for the dark arts, it reminds me of this great quote by Marie Curie "Nothing in life is to be feared, it is only to be understood. Now is the time to understand more, so that we may fear less.". I think if you take this approach to the dark arts, it does justify studying them academically. And curiously enough, she was a chemist, which is sort of like the muggle counterpart of a potions master.

So maybe Snape's attraction to the dark arts was initially academic (in order to fear less), but thanks to his own personal weaknesses/insecurities he ended up using his knowledge of the dark arts to protect himself instead (in school, hanging out with Avery & Mulciber, creating Sectumsempra "for enemies"), and eventually became a toxic source of self-esteem (joining the DEs who terrorized innocent people, with Sectumsempra as his signature spell, according to Lupin).

Me too. Looking back on HBP, it seems funny that Slughorn is always comparing Harry to Lily, going on and on about how brilliant she was, and all the while Harry was actually using Snape's notes, which show his genius in this subject. JK was probably just trying to drop another hint that they used to be good friends, but I think that also means that she knows the full backstory of their friendship, so hopefully she will reveal the details to us through Pottermore like she has with other characters so far.

If Lily did give him that nickname, I think it would be not so much out of admiration, but maybe to cheer him up & make him feel special :)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I don't think his interest in the Dark Arts was in order to protect Lily. My reasons include:

1) DD continued to keep him as far from the Dark Arts as possible by not giving him the DADA position. This was after DD was convinced of Snape's love for Lily. IMO, this means that DD knew about Snape's innate attraction to the Dark Arts despite his love for Lily.

2) In HBP, Harry hears a "loving caress" in Snape's voice when he speaks of the Dark Arts. Yes, Hermione says that his words were similar to what Harry himself said to the DA, but the tone of your speech is a factor to take into account too.

3) In GoF, Sirius says Snape knew more curses in his first year than half the seventh years. I, personally, find this statement rather hyperbolic and, given Sirius's history with Snape, it is probably an exaggeration. However, I do not take Sirius as a liar capable of spouting outright falsehoods. Which is why, I think there is some truth to his words. Perhaps Snape didn't know more dark curses than the seventh years during his first year, but, IMO, he did take an ardent interest in them unusually early in his school life. At such a young age, I doubt his protective instincts would be so mature that he would take on the study of a whole new, rather dodgy discipline just to keep his friend safe in the vague future. Plus, the war probably didn't have such a hold on the minds of the people so early in their Hogwarts career.

I think he was invited to join the Slug Club. Snape was a pretty talented guy. Yes, perhaps he lacked the charisma and popularity that Slug Club members seem to have but I think someone of his exceptional skill would be invited to join the club. Especially since his area of expertise was Slughorn's own subject. Whether Snape would go or not, I'm not sure. I honestly don't see him voluntarily attending a lot of social events. He seemed like a very introverted type. But then, he might have been flattered that his talent was being recognized and brought to the limelight. Still, I don't see him going to Slug's parties.

I agree. Although, IMO, his "crush" on Lily was well established even before they joined Hogwarts. (I placed "crush" in apostrophes because I think that's putting it a little mildly. I honestly don't know what to call Snape's thing for Lily. :hmm:)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

With his low self image and lack of self-esteem I think it's true he might have been looking for something to make himself feel special. I tend to see it as his using both sides of his nature, the magical and the Muggle, and combining them to say to himself "I am special."

Yes, that's kind of what I meant. That he realized he wasn't good enough to be a pureblood...and we know he was aware of the prejudices because he lied to Lily to save her feelings when she questioned him about being Muggleborn, so I think he realized that a "half-blood" was only a slight step above that...but, that he felt he was better by being a Prince -- which, we assume, was a pureblood family with some status in the Wizarding World.

I don't think he saw himself as working for the "Greater Good" like Dumbledore and Grindelwald, or saw Muggles as child-like, the way McGonagall and Arthur Weasley. I just think he had the ill feelings that people get when they have one negative interaction after another with a certain group. IMO, he would eventually find out all Muggles weren't like his father, Petunia, and possibly other neighborhood Muggles he'd had contact with. But, as a child, those were the only examples he had so he expressed his dislike for them -- but he accepted that he was part Muggle.

I still tend to look at the recruiting practices of the budding DEs in Hogwarts as similar to those of a cult, that they looked for the outcasts, the kids with low self-esteem, the kids who had talents they could use but whose talents were not acknowledged by anyone else. And, IMO, Severus was a prime candidate. If a cult can turn people against their own families they wouldn't have had too much of a problem gradually turning Severus their way since he had no one he really seemed to love except Lily and once their separate ways he would have been really easy prey. This isn't excusing him for joining them or not getting out when he saw what they were. I feel it's just one possibly explanation.

I really like that quote of Madam Curie's. I don't think Severus had an intention of using the Dark Arts in a negative manner when he first started studying them. I think he was curious and wanted to learn about something that others were a bit frightened of studying. I also think Sectumsempra was accidental, which is why he wrote "for enemies" by it. If he'd set out to invent it to use against enemies he would have known what it was for. I think he made a note to himself after he saw what it did -- maybe the cut on James' cheek during SWM??? He doesn't show signs of being a bully or of being a mean child/young man, as we see him in the memories. He just seems very defensive and strikes back quickly when insulted.

Where did Lupin say Sectumsempra was his signature spell? I don't remember that. I'm not doubting you. I just don't remember reading it.

I wonder if they put their head together and worked on their Potions, or if one of them was more talented than the other. We see that Lily has more control of her magical talents in the first memory, so maybe he was more talented in the Potions area. Could that be why he was so passionate about it and referred to the minimum of "foolish wand waving" and "...the beauty of the softly simmering cauldron with its shimmering fumes, the delicate power of liquids that creep through human veins, bewitching the mind, ensnaring the senses..."

I don't think Lily gave it to him. If she'd been a bit more "with it" I might say that Eileen gave it to him, maybe as a name she called him as a baby...her little half-blood Prince...but I don't think she had enough imagination for that.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I think he didn't get the DADA postion because it was jinxed by Voldemort--no DADA teacher ever lasted more than a year. I don't believe Dumbledore kept Snape from the job for fear of him lapsing back into the Dark Arts--he needed Severus on hand to assist with protecting Harry and as a spy. And Snape's expertise in healing Dark Art injuries was helpful on several occasions.

It was in DH: Fallen Warrior--after George got his ear cut off.

Snape attends Slughorn's Christmas party, HBP: The Unbreakable Vow, for which one needed an invitation. Perhaps he was an alumnus? Doesn't seem to be enjoying it, though.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

:D A little mildly?

I agree that to some extent Snape came to Hogwarts with a crush on Lily but he might not have known to call it that at the time. I think Snape's crush really began taking shape once he realized other boys had an interest in Lily - or at least that might have been when he really realized what he felt towards her were more than just friendly feelings.

I'd call it unrequited love fueled by jealousy.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

That was my impression as well. Dumbledore knew that the position was jinxed, that Voldemort would be back, and Snape was one of his greatest assets, so I think that's why he wouldn't let Snape have the job.

He tells Bellatrix at Spinner's End that DD was afraid he would lapse back into his old ways, but I think that story was part of his cover. Come to think of it, it might not even be true that he wanted to teach DADA, or that DADA was his favorite subject :hmm: That might have been fabricated as well (part of DD's plan) to give the appearance that Snape was still a DE at heart.

The way he talks about potions in book 1 makes me think that was probably his favorite subject :lol: (plus, the Slughorn-Lily-Potions book thing).

(Also, thnx for citing Lupin!)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Yes, and when Dumbledore is dying from the cursed ring and Snape makes the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa, it's possible he'll not return to Hogwart's at the end of the year so now's a good time to give Snape the DADA post.

(Good grief, sorry for the runon sentence!)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Slughorn seemed proud of Snape and put his arm around him at the party. I got the impression he thought highly of him. I've always believed he was a member of the Slug Club.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

He probably was, but even as an adult he seemed uncomfortable there. I imagine it was even worse when he was a student.

And this is such a funny scene! Slughorn was just about to claim Harry as being better at Potions as a student than Snape was!

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I was laughing so hard at this scene :rotfl: with Snape "trapped" in Slughorn's arm, and he just looks straight down at Harry like "Punk! You're up to something." :lol:

Woah, hang on, re-reading this just made me think of something in TPT b/c in this particular scene, Slughorn goes on to say:

HBP, Ch14 "Well, then, it's natural ability!" shouted Slughorn. "You should have seen what he gave me, first lesson, Draught of Living Death--never had a student produce finer on a first attempt, I don't think even you, Severus --" "Really?" said Snape quietly, his eyes still boring into Harry, who felt a certain disquiet. The last thing he wanted was for Snape to start investigating the source of his newfound brilliance at Potions.

I think it's because of the DoLD mention, and Slughorn's mentions of Lily that I was thinking of her in the very next paragraph where Harry is feeling "a certain disquiet" at Snape staring down at him. It reminded me alot of this:

DH, Ch33 "Why are you so obsessed with them anyway? Why do you care what they're doing at night?" "I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are." The intensity of his gaze made her blush.

Is that what that was? :huh: I figured one interpretation is that he was picking up on her attraction to James, but then the "intensity of his gaze" - do you think that could have been legilimency? :hmm:

(I apologize if it's been brought up a million times! It just occured to me several mins ago)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

That's a thought! I always just thought that his "I'm just trying to show you they're not as wonderful as everyone seems to think they are" comment sort of implied that he'd caught on to her crush on James and she understood his implication, hence the blush. But, Legilimency could also be the reason. But when he was only sixteen? That'd be a great accomplishment. :wow: My vote is still on the 'hidden implication' explanation, though.

:rotfl:

I actually got the feeling that his feelings for her were a lot more complex than "just friends" even before they started Hogwarts. No kid of 10 or 11 stares at someone they want to be just friends with, with a look of "undisguised greed". That, and his extreme reaction to the knowledge that Petunia had been spying on his private moment with Lily suggested a stronger feeling than "just friends". The amount of possessiveness he showed at that tender age felt very...off to me, somehow. It's understandable, I guess, considering his circumstances. :shrug:

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

In the book, it's called "love."

Harry says:

DH Snape's Patronus was a doe,' said Harry, 'the same as my mother's, because he loved her for nearly all of his life, from the time when they were children."

It's Voldemort who calls it something else - desire. But that's because love was beyond his understanding.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Dumbledore knew it was love, evidently, because he had tears in his eyes when Severus produced his patronus and DD asked him: "After all this time?" IMO, a crush doesn't last "Always."

I don't think Severus was using Legilimency on Lily in TPT. I think he was trying to just discredit the Marauders' as such big time heroes. But, as he and Lily talked it seemed to start to dawn on him that she was becoming romantically interested in James...that's why he "gazed" at her so "intently."

Severus had just asked her a bit before that about their status as "best friends," and she reassured him they were. I think she was trying to hide her feelings from herself and Severus, too. But his gaze was able to cut through that and get to her real feelings. To me, that's when he realized it was the beginning of the end for their friendship, and Lily knew it too. I think that's why she blushed. It was her "Ah ha" moment about her feelings for James. She just tosses it off and denies that she has any feelings for him when Severus says he thinks James "fanices" her, but I think that may have been a time when she started thinking about her feelings and Severus could tell it.

As to Severus and the Slug Club: while Slughorn mentions Severus being one of his top students, it isn't mentioned that Harry sees him in any of the pictures among Slughorn's favorites displayed on the mantel when they first met (and, since no one knew Severus was a DE except Dumbledore, it wasnt' because of that). That's why I don't think Severus was in the Slug Club. He would have been of no use to Slughorn, even if he was talented. Yes, he could brag on him at the Christmas Party -- Severus was now a successful member of Hogwarts' staff. But, sixteen years before I don't think Sluggy thought he was worth much to him. By the way, I'd say the entire faculty was probably invited to the party... whether they decided to attend or not was another story :lol: Maybe, as current head of Slytherin House he couldn't turn down a former Head-of-House's invitation.

Thank you, mirromere, for pointing out where Lupin says that was Severus' signature spell. Funny, he's the only one who mentions that, kind of like Severus knowing more Dark Magic at age 11 than most Seventh Years???

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

But love doesn't always spring into existence as "love", it often begins as friendship and develops into a crush before becoming love. I think Snape came to Hogwarts with a crush on Lily and left Hogwarts fully in love with her.

I don't think he was using Legilimency on Lily in TPT but it does raise the interesting question of when he first learned to perform legilimency and whether he would have used it against Lily. It's my thought that he must have at least known the basics before becoming a Death Eater (meaning he was learning it while in school) because otherwise he would have had to learn it from scratch and then master it to the point where Voldemort doesn't realize he's practicing legilimency against him in the three-ish years Snape is a death eater - and actually less than that, you have to subtract the amount of time between when Snape heard the prophecy and when Lily died. Even for a talented wizard that level of accomplishment in a difficult bit of magic is hard to believe in such a short period of time.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Oh yes, I know that. In the broad sense, it is love and there's no other way of coining it. Even I refer to it as "love" when I speak about it. But, looking deeper, I think Snape's feelings for Lily were slightly different from your regular romantic love. To me, it felt like there was a slightly obsessive, Heathcliff-ish vibe to it. :)

I think you mean 'Occlumency'? Why would he need to practice Occlumency against Voldemort during his time as a DE? He didn't have anything to hide from him at that point. It was only after Voldemort targeted Harry and Snape ran to DD for help, that he needed to start using Occlumency against V.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

As I understood it, Goddess_Clio's point is that he must have mastered Occlumency prior to that, because it would be impossible for him to master Occlumency overnight, so he could start keeping Voldemort out of his mind the day after visiting Dumbledore.