Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Answered on the Slughorn thread

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I really liked the questions on this thread so here goes:

Well, obviously, if he hadn’t relayed the prophecy to Voldemort, the Potters wouldn’t have been in danger in the first place. However, afterwards, he tried to rectify his mistake and measures were taken to protect them. Henceforth, Peter became the one responsible for the Potters’ deaths. So I guess I would divide the blame between Snape, Peter, and, of course, Voldemort.

I suppose so. I don’t see what’s lacking. We have everything needed to form a astute interpretation of his overall character, motivations, and disposition.

Well, I will say that it obviously comes harder for children who come from unhappy homes. So, yes, the neglect and (possibly) violence he faced at home factored to an extent for his lack of self-esteem, which, I think, led to his desire to be part of something impressive. However, not all children who come from unhappy homes go on to become criminals. Unless you’ve been brainwashed into subjugation – which I doubt happened with Snape – you always have the choice to choose a better path. Harry and Sirius, to name a few, also led unhappy childhoods – but they made the choice to follow the correct path. A less-than-sterling childhood is not, IMO, an excuse for all the poor choices you make much later in life. In the end, I do think Snape’s questionable choices – and I’m not just talking about him becoming a Death Eater - came down to Snape himself.

I don’t think he would have moved on. His love for Lily seemed to me slightly…I hesitate to use the word ‘obsessive’, but along those lines.

Would he have turned over to the good side if Lily hadn’t died? I don’t think so. The only thing holding him from joining the Dark Side was his concern for Lily’s life and, after her death, the desire to make sure she hadn’t died in vain. If those factors were removed, I see no reason for him to join the Light Side of his own volition.

He was reluctant because of his insecurity and lack of self-esteem. His poor state of dress, his fear that perhaps she might be aggressive toward him, or that she might make fun of him all sort of meshed and prevented him from approaching her at first, IMO.

No, I don’t think he would have been interested in her had she not been magical. He seemed to hold that he and Lily were superior to Petunia because they were magical and Petunia wasn’t. Their conversations also revolved mostly around the magical world – suggesting to me that Snape brought some amount of control into his life by being Lily’s self-appointed magical guide. IMO, if Lily hadn’t been magical, she would just have been another Muggle girl in Snape’s eyes.

To me, Snape and Lily continued their friendship at Hogwarts not so much because they appreciated each other as people, and more because of what the other represented to each of them. In my honest opinion, their friendship worked majorly like this: Lily’s loyalty and sense of duty towards her first magical friend; and Snape needing to hold on to the brightest thing in his life. The term “best friends” that was coined by Snape in TPT was, IMO, a sign of Snape’s desperate desire to prevent the growing distance between him and Lily. Otherwise, I have a hard time imagining Lily and Snape hanging out during their leisure time, joking, laughing and/or sharing their thoughts and views on mundane, everyday matters like normal best friends do.

I think they both worked to maintain the relationship – the wisdom of their methods, however, are not always impressive. On Lily’s side, I don’t see what else she should or could have done to try and make their friendship work. She seemed to have spent a lot of energy in warning Snape against the suspicious people and activities he was getting into, but it didn’t seem like she got through to him much. On Snape’s side…well, it looked like he wanted both, the Dark Arts and Lily. He couldn’t seem to comprehend what Lily saw wrong in the Dark Arts and kept avoiding the conflict until it was too late. It seemed to me like Snape wanted to keep Lily because of what she represented to him, not because of the person she was with her own thoughts and traits and opinions (which he seemed to ignore for the most part, unless they were of the appreciative kind and directed towards the Marauders).

Well, he wouldn’t have become a Death eater for sure. He seems like an academic type to me so he might have gone on to become an Unspeakable…or, of course, Hogwarts Potions (or DADA) master. ;)

Whether his friendship with Lily would have remained strong, I’m not sure. Her relationship with James would have been a source of conflict, I think. I’m not sure how they would have handled that…

Eh, well, I don’t really see Snape and Lily saving their friendship without changing the very people they are, anyway. A few pages into TPT, it became apparent to me why it would never have worked out. Even without Dark Arts as an issue, Snape was just too innately unpleasant, bitter, and unforgiving in disposition for their friendship to have lasted (especially considering that he wanted more than she was willing to give).

His “murder” of DD was part of his duty and something that must have required a lot of mental strength. A sign of how far he was willing to go for the sake of Lily’s memory. I never thought his treatment of Sirius had anything to do with Lily.

The fact that every good act Snape performed was only out of love for Lily, sort of lessened their laudability in my eyes. I, therefore, am reluctant to place him on the same pedestal as, say, the other Order members who were actually fighting because they believed in the good cause. To me, this fact also brought home the truth that Snape was capable of willingly conspiring to murder a one-year-old baby (and his family, most likely) – and that, for me, is just unforgivable. That he switched over to the good side was only because he was, in a twisted way, “lucky” that Lily’s son was the one Voldemort targeted, thereby giving Snape a chance to leave behind his dark activities and redeem himself in the eyes of most readers.

I suppose it made me understand why he kept saving Harry while professing his undying hatred for him. Maybe his treatment of Neville was so poor because, had Voldemort chosen Neville instead of Harry, Lily wouldn’t have been dead. Though I don’t know if Snape ever knew Neville was the other potential target. Whatever it was, I think his daily treatment of both boys was inexcusable.

Nope.

The extreme dichotomy of his character.

Strengths: Bravery, strategic mind, magical skill, ability to love deeply (although very exclusively)

Flaws: Bitterness, inability to let go of the past, bullying of children, perpetual feeling of being victimized, the malice he’s capable of, coldness, lack of compassion, unforgiving nature

:rotfl: Well, that’s a loaded question. I’d ask them to go read the books themselves. :D

Lily. :relax:

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

From the Sirius thread...

I can't believe I'm doing this :yuhup: but...

I think we need to define what it means for Snape to recognize his demons. Certainly, he recognized and confronted his attraction to the Dark Arts and its consequences.

But I don't think his past with the Death Eaters is the primary demon that Severus faces. His primary demon is his deep burning anger over his perception of how he was treated by the Marauders. The anger is so intense that for much of the series he cannot look at Harry's face without seeing Harry's father. I personally do not think this is a voluntary reaction. I think Harry's face just trips the wire, and we have Severus' sheer unadulterated rage - usually filtered through snark.

Is Severus even aware that these demons are demons and that he needs to confront them? He does a great job of overcoming his Death Eater past. His track record on overcoming his core demons, though, is far more spotty.

I am of the school that thinks that his core resentment is real... but that he also nurses it and keeps it alive so that he can use it to make his spy work against Voldemort more effective. So... is he simply a failure in confronting his core demons? Or is he, like Sirius, in a position that makes it extremely difficult to confront his demons and conclusively overcome them? Would he be able to deal with his demons more effectively and eradicate them once the war is over and he no longer has to play a part?

"Look at me" does suggest that in his final dying moments he finally sees Harry's mother in the boy, and the scene in Dumbledore's office when he learns that Harry must die (and calls him "Lily Potter's son") suggests that he may even have seen more than just James' parentage in Harry by that point.

That's at least a start in confronting and overcoming his core demons. Unfortunately, it comes at the very end.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Is his anger just at the Marauder's or at James and Sirius? the Marauder's included Peter and Remus. While I can imagine Snape hating Peter because he betrayed the Potters to Voldemort, I can't imagine him being angry at Remus. Snape would not have tried to go into the tunnel under the Whomping Willow if it wasn't for Sirius.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Okay, I'm only going to provide data here and not argue whether any of the anger is justified or not. Snape vs. Marauders can lead to nowhere good. :yuhup:

But yes, his anger is definitely aimed at all four of them. His behavior throughout PoA tells us that he is angry at Remus... extremely angry. He has believed (wrongly) since the age of 16 that Remus was in on Sirius' attempt to get him into the Whomping Willow.

Also, in "Flight of the Prince," he claims that Harry's father never attacked him unless he could do it 4-on-1. Whether that claim is warranted or not (in the only example we see, it's 2-on-1), I do think it is Severus' perception of the reality - as remembered through rage. And rage is not a good guide for memory.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Well, I never thought he blamed Remus! My thoughts centered on his comments in the Prince's Tale, when he first met Sirius and James on the Hogwarts Express.

I think Severus knew that Harry had his mother's eyes, Dumbledore mentioned it to him. And when Harry was in Potions for the first time, Harry had to keep staring into Snape's cold, dark eyes when he was answering Snape"s questions.
Isn't Snape's rage that makes him so tragic? there is a word or phrase for this type of writing and I am drawing a blank about what I want to say.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

From PoA, end of Chapter 18:

So yes, Severus blamed Remus. In fact, he apparently still blamed Remus even after hearing the conversation in the Shrieking Shack. The truth of the situation just flies in the face of all that "righteous anger" he has built up over the years. (And really, who wouldn't prefer to wallow in the righteous anger? :yuhup:) At this point, Severus chooses his anger over the truth. It's possible that he eventually accepted the truth, but not on the night he first heard it.

:agree: Of course Snape knows intellectually that Harry is Lily's son and that Harry has Lily's eyes. I'd say that's a lot different, though, than facing the pain of knowing and acknowledging it in his gut.

One thing that a lot of humans do - and I think Severus is one of them - is use anger to avoid pain. By focusing on his rage against the father, Severus avoids the pain of seeing the mother when he sees Harry. Dumbledore even calls him out on it during one of Snape's rants in TPT when he tells Severus that Harry may have his father's face, but there's more Lily in Harry's deeper nature than there is James.

Yes. I'd say it makes him a tragic figure - particularly if we define tragic in terms of the character possessing a "tragic flaw."

Actually, Snape reminds me a lot of Orual (the central character in C.S. Lewis' Till We Have Faces). Orual is deeply deeply angry - so angry that for the bulk of the book she cannot see her true self or her true motives. JKR was heavily influenced by C.S. Lewis, though I don't know if she was influenced by this book. It would make sense to me, though, if Orual served as one of her inspirations for Snape.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I definitely agree - humans often use anger to keep from facing and dealing with overwhelming pain, and I think this fits Snape perfectly.

I also think there's another reason Snape avoids thinking about Lily in connection with Harry - I think Snape has a huge amount of unconscious guilt over carrying the prophecy to Voldemort and Lily's uebsequent demise. It's easier for him to focus on his anger at Harry's father than the pain of guilt for what he did.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Whenever Harry looked at Snape, he was angry most of those times and I think this expression reminded Snape of the times when those eyes were held in the same way: when Lily was angry and fighting with him and his response then was to apologise, multiple times even, and found it didn't fix anything. This, along with the pile of other reasons, made it harder for Snape to give in to Harry, as well as making himself more frustrated and angry.

I definiately agree that Snape was psychologically affected deeply, especially from childhood experiences, that makes him such a tragic character, with the evidence seen in his responses to other people/situations in later life.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

The interesting thing is--if Snape hadn't relayed the prophecy, Voldemort wouldn't have been destroyed either.

I'm not recalling many examples of Snape showing extreme anger at Lupin throughout PoA. In fact he seems quite civil toward him until the end when he catches Lupin in the Shack with Sirius. He is suspicious--but his past experiences with Lupin gives him the right to be.

[staff edit] Snape was sworn to secrecy by Dumbledore after the incident, but James bragged to Lily that he had saved Snape's life "from whatever is down there." Snape, honoring his promise, does not tell Lily that he had been correct about Lupin, which would have been very difficult for him to do. [staff edit] If Snape had wanted to get Lupin expelled when he was a student, he certainly could have done so.

[staff edit]

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

My apologies for offending anyone. Snape is a tragic/hero. He is multi-dimensional as a character. he starts out as an angry person, but by the end of the series we see how much he really loved Lily and how he tried to protect her son.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

The same can be said about Pettigrew betraying the Potters and Voldemort murdering Lily and James and attempting to murder Harry. Voldemort wouldn't have been destroyed if Pettigrew hadn't helped him to get to the Potters. Voldemort wouldn't have been destroyed if he hadn't gone after Harry. Sometimes evil deeds like those of Snape, Wormtail and Voldemort have unexpected positive consequences. I don't believe that makes the evil deed retroactively good.

Snape didn't pass on the prophecy with the intention of doing anything good or with the intention of stopping his evil boss. IMO, he did it with the intention of impressing Voldemort and of increasing his standing with a murdering madman. The murder of a child and his family being part of the package were purely incidental to Snape and were probably not even a blip on his radar.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I'm sorry, I don't agree that Snape was trying to impress Voldemort. I just thouhgt there was more to telling Voldemort about the prophecy.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I don't think there was anything else to it. Snape was a DE. He wanted to impress Voldemort, improve his standing among his esteemed fellow criminals. When Dumbledore speaks of the spy in OotP, he says that the spy "hastened to tell Voldemort, for it concerned his master most deeply". I don't think that Snape had anything remotely resembling a good motive for doing that. I think it was about serving his master, and in doing so, serving his own interests - importance among the DEs.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Did Snape know that there were two babies who were about to be born at the end of July? If Snape just mentioned that a prophecy concerning a baby that was to be born at the end of July, then I could see him telling Voldemort to go after the Potters. If he knew about the two babies, then he would have mentioned both to Voldemort and let Voldemort decide.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Snape passed on the prophecy and the criteria for the prophecy - a boy who would be born at the end of July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. I'm not sure what you mean. Snape passed on important information to his murderous master, knowing that it would get people killed. But that was incidental to Snape; people getting hurt didn't matter. He didn't know how many people might fit the criteria, he didn't know who they would be. But he was intelligent enough to know what would happen to someone Voldemort considered a threat. And that did not matter to Snape because he would gain from passing on this information, and he didn't care who was hurt as long as he benefitted. Kind of ironic the way that worked out for him.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

thanks for clearing that up for me.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

What more could there be to him passing on the prophecy? The series is over, there are no more secrets left to be unveiled. As it stands, Snape was a Death Eater serving a psychopathic murderer. He heard a prophecy that spoke of a threat to his master and passed the information on to him. Unless JKR had specifically said anything about Snape's motives for doing so, the logical reasoning would be that he was doing it to establish a more secure place in his master's good books. And that was an immoral act, no matter what good came out of it in the distant future.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

While I think its impossible to disregard Sev's desire for self preservation (he had just failed in the task LV set him) or his wanting to ingratiate himself I do think that there are other factors, one being that the prophecy speaks of the dark lord being 'vanquished'. Given the situation at the time I think it very easy (and probably correct imo) to see 'vanquished' as resulting in the death of Voldemort.

While he was an evilperson he was also someone Severus would have known, at least to some extent,and I think that prehaps wantng to save the life of someone he knew might have come into the equation - just a thought :)