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GrimeldaDursley May 21st, 2012 3:41 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
I was under the impression that Aberforth caught him listening at the door, and threw him out before he could hear the whole thing.

snapes_witch May 21st, 2012 4:33 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimeldaDursley (Post 6012293)
I was under the impression that Aberforth caught him listening at the door, and threw him out before he could hear the whole thing.

Yes, he only heard up to 'as the seventh month dies'.

ccollinsmith May 21st, 2012 4:51 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MerryLore (Post 6011948)
I definitely agree - humans often use anger to keep from facing and dealing with overwhelming pain, and I think this fits Snape perfectly.

I also think there's another reason Snape avoids thinking about Lily in connection with Harry - I think Snape has a huge amount of unconscious guilt over carrying the prophecy to Voldemort and Lily's uebsequent demise. It's easier for him to focus on his anger at Harry's father than the pain of guilt for what he did.

Good point. And you point out that it is "unconscious." So long as he focuses on his anger, the pain/guilt can possibly remain in his unconscious.

Since we don't have access to Severus' mind (as we do to Harry's), we don't know the extent to which he allowed that pain and guilt to enter his mind consciously. It's going to be there somewhere, obviously. His reaction after Lily's death demonstrates pretty conclusively, I think, that he's not a sociopath. He does care.

So unlike a sociopath, he will have the pain and guilt somewhere in his psyche. If he buries it so that it's not in his conscious mind, it's going to be present in his unconscious mind. But in the unconscious, it is potentially more volatile / more combustible. Buried pain and guilt is extremely unhealthy, and it would tend to lead to intensified anger in the conscious mind.

So here's a possible dynamic:

anger ---> buried pain and guilt ----> intensified anger ---> more deeply buried pain and guilt ---> increased intensified anger

This is a common dynamic in real life, which is why I think it's possible that it would be in play with Severus. It's basically an illustration of a vicious cycle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liez (Post 6011950)
Whenever Harry looked at Snape, he was angry most of those times and I think this expression reminded Snape of the times when those eyes were held in the same way...

I agree that Severus and Harry get into a vicious cycle in which one party's anger leads to increased anger in the other party. However, as some of our friends will probably be quick to point out, Severus drew the first blood. Harry wasn't angry the first time he glanced at Severus. He was just in pain from his scar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6012019)
I'm not recalling many examples of Snape showing extreme anger at Lupin throughout PoA. In fact he seems quite civil toward him until the end when he catches Lupin in the Shack with Sirius. He is suspicious--but his past experiences with Lupin gives him the right to be.

I wasn't suggesting that he showed extreme anger throughout PoA. He shows extreme anger - i.e., white hot fury - only in the Shrieking Shack. But I think he certainly shows cold fury throughout the book.

Severus usually uses snark to put a layer between his anger and the rest of the world. There are only three times in the series, I think, when we see Severus in white-hot fury: the Shrieking Shack, Flight of the Prince, and when he catches Harry in the Pensieve in SWM.

My point is that, regardless of who is to blame in the teenage incidents that have got Severus enraged, he is enraged about them, and the rage itself is destructive... and self-destructive. It is, I think, Severus' core demon, and it is something that he desperately needs to lay aside. It keeps him from seeing himself clearly and from seeing Harry clearly.

And in PoA, it even keeps him from seeing Remus clearly. Remus clearly wants to put the past in the past. Severus is too angry about the past to do so. I think he may have gotten over that a little bit with regard to Remus, given that he does risk blowing his cover to save Remus' life in 7 Potters.

But at the same time, Severus' statement to Dumbledore (i.e., that he saves all the lives it is possible to save) indicates that it is equally likely that Severus saved Remus simply because Remus was a person being targeted by a Death Eater, and it was possible to save his life. It does not necessarily indicate that Severus put the anger behind him. It just shows that he was able in the end to rise above it.

Liez May 21st, 2012 7:38 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith (Post 6012325)
I agree that Severus and Harry get into a vicious cycle in which one party's anger leads to increased anger in the other party. However, as some of our friends will probably be quick to point out, Severus drew the first blood. Harry wasn't angry the first time he glanced at Severus. He was just in pain from his scar.

I didn't particularly mean that first time, but a lot of those times afterwards when Harry actively disliked Snape, like in the potion and occlumency lessons and especially after Snape killed Dumbledore.


I've also been wondering lately about Snape's repulsive reaction when he was called a "coward".
Was it because Dumbledore's comments to him, about being brave and helpful, were a way of keeping up Snape's self-esteem - a reassurance of "I can get through this" - and a focus point to deal with another day? So whenever he was called a coward his sense of worth and self would shudder around dangerously?
Or maybe Lily's last words to him involved calling him a coward? (I don't think I believe that last scene between them in TPT was the last conversation they ever had). And Snape might feel the need to prove her final judgement wrong and show that "I'm a lot more than that!" Being called a coward by her son might've been too much.
Just what I thought.

mirrormere May 22nd, 2012 4:13 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith (Post 6011943)
So yes, Severus blamed Remus. In fact, he apparently still blamed Remus even after hearing the conversation in the Shrieking Shack. The truth of the situation just flies in the face of all that "righteous anger" he has built up over the years. (And really, who wouldn't prefer to wallow in the righteous anger? ) At this point, Severus chooses his anger over the truth. It's possible that he eventually accepted the truth, but not on the night he first heard it.

I've just re-read the passages with Snape in PoA and, although Snape does show his dislike of Lupin from the beginning of the book (first night at Hogwarts he has a look of loathing on his face when Remus was introduced), most of his attitude toward him seems to stem from his suspicions that Lupin is in league with Black and will endanger Harry. As Remus says later in HBP, Snape prepares the Wolfsbane potion perfectly for him every month. Severus could easily have tampered with it instead--if he hated Lupin that much.

And as I read his "That's right," it doesn't necessarily mean he still thinks Lupin was in on Sirius' "joke," just that he had believed it. But his cold, sneering manner at that moment seems to be due to Lupin's admission that he inadvertently helped Sirius into the castle as Snape had tried to convince Dumbledore was a possibility (though I believe Snape thought it intentional.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith (Post 6012325)
And in PoA, it even keeps him from seeing Remus clearly. Remus clearly wants to put the past in the past. Severus is too angry about the past to do so. I think he may have gotten over that a little bit with regard to Remus, given that he does risk blowing his cover to save Remus' life in 7 Potters.

I definitely think that Remus wanted to put the past behind him--in HBP he even seems to suggest he would be open toward an actual friendship with Snape. But I think the anger and frustration Snape has toward Lupin during their year teaching at Hogwarts stems more from Dumbledore dismissing Snape's concerns about Lupin being untrustworthy. Dumbledore has charged him with protecting Harry, but then allows Lupin into the castle, who Snape deeply distrusts and who has a connection with someone everybody believes is out to kill Harry. Trying to balance those two quantities would have driven the man nuts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liez (Post 6012340)
I've also been wondering lately about Snape's repulsive reaction when he was called a "coward". Was it because Dumbledore's comments to him, about being brave and helpful, were a way of keeping up Snape's self-esteem - a reassurance of "I can get through this" - and a focus point to deal with another day? So whenever he was called a coward his sense of worth and self would shudder around dangerously? Or maybe Lily's last words to him involved calling him a coward? (I don't think I believe that last scene between them in TPT was the last conversation they ever had). And Snape might feel the need to prove her final judgement wrong and show that "I'm a lot more than that!" Being called a coward by her son might've been too much.
Just what I thought.

I don't think Lily ever called him a coward.

I think Snape's reaction was mostly due to the fact that he had just been forced to kill Dumbledore. Although the effects of this act are not really discussed in the books (since it's Harry's story) it is alluded to. Killing rips the soul apart. Severus has just endangered his own soul by killing Dumbledore, sacrificing himself in order to bring down Voldemort, and he is in excruciating pain, as JKR tells us:
HBP: Flight of the Prince“DON’T —” screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them — “CALL ME COWARD!”
Years later Harry will call him the bravest man he ever knew for precisely what Snape did that night.

ccollinsmith May 22nd, 2012 6:27 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Liez (Post 6012340)
I've also been wondering lately about Snape's repulsive reaction when he was called a "coward".

This is an emotionally charged situation all around. I give both Harry and Severus a pass.

Severus has just killed a person that he did not want to kill. He protested when Dumbledore first asked him to do it. He protested again about 9 months later when Dumbledore tried to give him instructions for what to do after he had killed him. Severus was, I think, clearly uncomfortable with the whole thing and wanted out of it.

So flash forward to "Flight of the Prince." Severus has killed Dumbledore. Harry has seen him do it. For obvious reasons, Harry thinks Severus is a cold-blooded murderer. And he calls him a coward.

Now, here's the real situation, as I understand it (and as I think Severus perceives it):
  • Severus puts his life in danger every time he faces Voldemort
  • He has just potentially put his soul in danger by killing Dumbledore (he was concerned, remember, about his soul)
  • He has secretly protected Harry from danger throughout Harry's time at Hogwarts
  • There's a very good chance that he will die as a result of killing Dumbledore if the Order or the Aurors catch up with him (I personally do not think he expected to live out the year)
In other words, he is actually the opposite of what Harry calls him here - as Harry acknowledges in the Epilogue. I think that under the circumstances, being called a "coward" just trips the wire and sends Severus into white-hot rage.

I'm not blaming Harry for what he said. But I personally don't blame Severus for his response either. It's just an emotionally charged situation. Neither one of them, imo, is in full control of himself.

What I do find interesting is that it appears that this rant is something that Severus has psychologically needed to say for a long time. After he finally gets it all out in the open, he seems to settle into a quiet purposefulness during his final year. We don't see a lot of him in that year, but in no scene after this do we see him angry or snarky again. It's almost as if the poison has been removed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6012519)
I've just re-read the passages with Snape in PoA and, although Snape does show his dislike of Lupin from the beginning of the book (first night at Hogwarts he has a look of loathing on his face when Remus was introduced), most of his attitude toward him seems to stem from his suspicions that Lupin is in league with Black and will endanger Harry. As Remus says later in HBP, Snape prepares the Wolfsbane potion perfectly for him every month. Severus could easily have tampered with it instead--if he hated Lupin that much.

We are going to have to agree to disagree about this. Severus believes Remus is in cahoots with Sirius precisely because of their Marauder past, I think. In other words, his suspicions result from his perception of events that occurred with the Marauders.

As for the Wolfsbane potion... I was talking about "anger" and "rage." I was not intending to discuss anything more extreme.

At any rate, I never meant to suggest that Severus would be so angry about the past that he could not fulfill his duty. In fact, I suggested that he keeps a lid on his rage by using snark. It is his duty to provide Remus with the Wolfsbane potion, and he performs his duty. Anyway, there's no indication I can find in the text that he would tamper with the potion regardless of how angry he was at Lupin, or for what cause.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6012519)
And as I read his "That's right," it doesn't necessarily mean he still thinks Lupin was in on Sirius' "joke," just that he had believed it.

Harry is speaking in present tense concerning the reason Snape does not like Lupin. So I do think the text suggests that Snape has not changed his belief that Lupin was in on it.

From the Sirius thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sereena (Post 6012344)
Snape gets about as much development as Sirius but even he only dies after there is nothing else left for his character to do so or say.

I think it depends on whether we are talking about his character arc in relationship to Harry's character arc, or whether we are talking about whether Severus develops as far as it is possible for him to develop in his own right. If we are talking about his functionary role in the plot - as a textual construct subsidiary to Harry's story - then yes, there's not really anywhere else for him to go. But if we are talking about him as a character in his own right, then I would have to disagree.

As I mentioned earlier in this post, Severus seems to settle into a quiet purposefulness during the final year of his life. (I say "seems" because we don't see enough of him to make a conclusive statement). At any rate, I have always found this interesting and see it as showing potential for considerable character growth... if he had survived the war. So in that sense, I do think his character is cut short.

merrymarge May 23rd, 2012 1:18 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
He is such a complex person.

mirrormere May 24th, 2012 2:14 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith (Post 6012542)
What I do find interesting is that it appears that this rant is something that Severus has psychologically needed to say for a long time. After he finally gets it all out in the open, he seems to settle into a quiet purposefulness during his final year. We don't see a lot of him in that year, but in no scene after this do we see him angry or snarky again. It's almost as if the poison has been removed.

Although I really like this idea, I still think most of his reaction is due to what just happened with DD. With the exception of his confrontation with McGonagall (who I believe he had a deep respect for) we always see Snape in Voldemort’s presence throughout DH and I don’t think he is going to employ snark in his dealings with the Dark Lord. Nor do we ever again see him interacting with students, other than Harry when he dies. Though I would like to believe that he made strides in that direction (dealing with his anger issues), I can’t see an example in DH where that is actually tested–unless you have some?

Additionally, Harry calls him a coward twice. Here’s the first time and Snape’s response:
HBP: Flight of the Prince“Fight back!” Harry screamed at him. “Fight back, you cowardly —”

“Coward, did you call me, Potter?” shouted Snape. “Your father would never attack me unless it was four on one, what would you call him, I wonder?”
However, it is only after Harry brings up DD’s death that Snape freaks out:
HBP: Flight of the Prince“Kill me then,” panted Harry, who felt no fear at all, but only rage and contempt. “Kill me like you killed him, you coward —”

“DON’T —” screamed Snape, and his face was suddenly demented, inhuman, as though he was in as much pain as the yelping, howling dog stuck in the burning house behind them — “CALL ME COWARD!”
The fact that this time, when Harry reminds him of Dumbledore, JKR portrays Snape as being in severe pain is what convinces me it’s connected specifically with what occurred on the tower. My interpretation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith (Post 6012542)
We are going to have to agree to disagree about this. Severus believes Remus is in cahoots with Sirius precisely because of their Marauder past, I think. In other words, his suspicions result from his perception of events that occurred with the Marauders.

I don’t think we are actually that far apart. I agree that Snape heartily dislikes Lupin and distrusts him as well–all stemming from his experiences in the past, but we see very little actual conflict between the two in PoA and I’m having a hard time finding an example where Severus is snarky toward Lupin. His upsets seem to occur due to current events and this is the closest we ever see Snape openly rebel against Dumbledore (he's trying to persuade Fudge to override DD and then let's it slip that Lupin is a werewolf--a secret that he had kept on Dumbledore's request since he was 15.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith (Post 6012542)
As for the Wolfsbane potion... I was talking about "anger" and "rage." I was not intending to discuss anything more extreme.

At any rate, I never meant to suggest that Severus would be so angry about the past that he could not fulfill his duty. In fact, I suggested that he keeps a lid on his rage by using snark. It is his duty to provide Remus with the Wolfsbane potion, and he performs his duty. Anyway, there's no indication I can find in the text that he would tamper with the potion regardless of how angry he was at Lupin, or for what cause.

Actually this was from Lupin himself, emphasis mine:
HBP: A Very Frosty Christmas“I neither like nor dislike Severus,” said Lupin. “No, Harry, I am speaking the truth,” he added, as Harry pulled a skeptical expression. “We shall never be bosom friends, perhaps; after all that happened between James and Sirius and Severus, there is too much bitterness there. But I do not forget that during the year I taught at Hogwarts, Severus made the Wolfsbane Potion for me every month, made it perfectly, so that I did not have to suffer as I usually do at the full moon.”

“But he ‘accidentally’ let it slip that you’re a werewolf, so you had to leave!” said Harry angrily

Lupin shrugged. “The news would have leaked out anyway. We both know he wanted my job, but he could have wreaked much worse damage on me by tampering with the potion. He kept me healthy. I must be grateful.”
And I think this passage definitely supports your opinion that Remus wanted to relegate the past to the past. It may even be (note the ‘perhaps’ underlined) that he would have actually been open to some kind of friendship with Snape.


Quote:

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith (Post 6012542)
Harry is speaking in present tense concerning the reason Snape does not like Lupin. So I do think the text suggests that Snape has not changed his belief that Lupin was in on it.

Here’s the passage again:
PoA: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs“So that’s why Snape doesn’t like you,” said Harry slowly, “because he thought you were in on the joke?”

“That’s right,” sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin.
Hmmm. If it were present tense, wouldn’t Harry have said “because he thinks you were in on the joke?”

MerryLore May 24th, 2012 3:22 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6012979)
Although I really like this idea, I still think most of his reaction is due to what just happened with DD. With the exception of his confrontation with McGonagall (who I believe he had a deep respect for) we always see Snape in Voldemort’s presence throughout DH and I don’t think he is going to employ snark in his dealings with the Dark Lord. Nor do we ever again see him interacting with students, other than Harry when he dies. Though I would like to believe that he made strides in that direction (dealing with his anger issues), I can’t see an example in DH where that is actually tested–unless you have some?

Well, there is one more example: when Neville and Ginny break into his office and try to steal the sword. Snape, in his anger.....gives them detention with Hagrid :rotfl: The Carrows were in charge of punishment, I thought, and would be far more harsh than anything Hagrid would choose, and I think Snape knew that. Plus, Snape could be really rough with Neville during the earlier years. He does seem to have mellowed to an extent.

ccollinsmith May 24th, 2012 4:10 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
I only have time for this part at the moment, but I'll try to get around to the rest of the post later. :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6012979)
Here’s the passage again:
PoA: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs“So that’s why Snape doesn’t like you,” said Harry slowly, “because he thought you were in on the joke?”

“That’s right,” sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin.
Hmmm. If it were present tense, wouldn’t Harry have said “because he thinks you were in on the joke?”

Harry commits a tense shift (a grammatical error). He is feeling his way toward understanding the situation, and I think his tense shift reflects the tentative nature of his question. The crux of the sentence, I think, is this part:

"That's why Snape doesn't like you." Snape doesn't like Lupin in present tense. This is a fact that Harry has been able to observe throughout the year. Then Harry ascribes that dislike to an opinion concerning the werewolf prank - and Snape confirms Harry's deduction.

So how do we read the shift into past tense?

I see three possibilities:

Snape does not like Lupin (present tense) because of an opinion he still holds concerning a past event (i.e., the werewolf prank). Harry signals the "past-ness" of the event by accidentally shifting the verb in the second clause to the past tense.

Snape does not like Lupin (present tense) because of an (erroneous) opinion that he held in the past concerning a past event (i.e., the werewolf prank). Harry signals the "past-ness" of the opinion by accidentally shifting the verb in the second clause to the past tense.

Snape did not like Lupin (past tense) because of an (erroneous) opinion that he held in the past concerning a past event (i.e., the werewolf prank). Harry gets his tense wrong in the first clause and corrects his tense in the second clause.

The second possibility make no logical sense to me, the third possibility flies in the face of Harry's observation that the dislike occurs in the present, and we are not given other options in this sentence for Snape's dislike (such as, his perception of the whole Marauder history, his current suspicion of a Sirius Black - Remus Lupin "conspiracy"). I personally think there are additional reasons for the dislike beyond the werewolf prank, but this particular sentence hinges on that one event... and Snape confirms the werewolf prank as a source of his dislike.

The first option (accidental tense shift signalling a past event) is something that I see all the time in the writing of students who are 5 or more years older than Harry is here. These sorts of tense shifts are even more common in speech - especially when someone is speaking tentatively or excitedly.

So basically, I read the sentence as indicating that Snape's current dislike of Lupin results from a current opinion concerning a past event, and Harry's just having trouble keeping his verb tenses consistent because of the situation.

Goddess_Clio May 24th, 2012 4:44 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6012979)
Here’s the passage again:
PoA: Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot and Prongs“So that’s why Snape doesn’t like you,” said Harry slowly, “because he thought you were in on the joke?”

“That’s right,” sneered a cold voice from the wall behind Lupin.


Hmmm. If it were present tense, wouldn’t Harry have said “because he thinks you were in on the joke?”

ccollinsmith explains this better, or at least more technically, that I can, could or will but I see Harry's tense-shifting question as Snape not liking Lupin in the present story because Snape thought Lupin was in on a joke that happened years before that Snape won't let go of.

This tallies perfectly, IMO, with Snape's fantastic ability to hold grudges and animostity toward people for years and years as he does with James and Sirius as well. This also seems to support Snape's apparent bigotry toward werewolves as he seems to hold a prejudice toward them just like the rest of the wizarding world when he was a teenager and to me this also tallies with his apparent prejudice toward muggleborns which, IMO, he lies to Lily about when they are children when he tells her that having magical blood or not doesn't matter. To me, he says that line like to him it does matter but he is so desperate for someone to talk to, to connect with, to be friends with that he would tell her anything to keep her around.

mirrormere May 24th, 2012 6:45 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MerryLore (Post 6012984)
Well, there is one more example: when Neville and Ginny break into his office and try to steal the sword. Snape, in his anger.....gives them detention with Hagrid :rotfl: The Carrows were in charge of punishment, I thought, and would be far more harsh than anything Hagrid would choose, and I think Snape knew that. Plus, Snape could be really rough with Neville during the earlier years. He does seem to have mellowed to an extent.

Snape's detentions were never really severe, imo, so I'm not seeing much of a change (and the Headmaster can overrule any staff whenever he chooses.) Although I could be mistaken--do you have an example where you think one or more of his detentions was out of line? His anger and sarcasm tended to get overblown handing out those detentions, but that is my point--we don't actually get to see him hand out Neville and Ginny's punishment so we don't know if his snark and anger has lessened to any significant degree. As I said, I would like to think so, but there isn't any actual proof.

MerryLore May 24th, 2012 6:59 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6013007)
Snape's detentions were never really severe, imo, so I'm not seeing much of a change (and the Headmaster can overrule any staff whenever he chooses.) Although I could be mistaken--do you have an example where you think one or more of his detentions was out of line? His anger and sarcasm tended to get overblown handing out those detentions, but that is my point--we don't actually get to see him hand out Neville and Ginny's punishment so we don't know if his snark and anger has lessened to any significant degree. As I said, I would like to think so, but there isn't any actual proof.

Ah, but Snape's detentions were given when Dumbledore was Headmaster and Snape had to answer to him. n DH, Dumbledore is dead and Snape is in charge and he only has to answer to Voldemort. I think if Snape were truly still angry with Neville to the extent that he seemed to be in the first book, he would have been only too happy to give him detention with the Carrows.

FurryDice May 24th, 2012 7:20 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by kittling (Post 6012146)
While he was an evilperson he was also someone Severus would have known, at least to some extent,and I think that prehaps wantng to save the life of someone he knew might have come into the equation - just a thought :)

What kind of person is willing to put an innocent child in mortal peril to save a murdering madman? What kind of person becomes a minion for a murdering madman anyway? I don't think Snape was acting out of concern for Voldemort. I think he was acting purely out of self-interest in passing on the prophecy. The child he put in peril was completely incidental as long as Severus Snape benefitted. I love the irony of that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrimeldaDursley (Post 6012293)
I was under the impression that Aberforth caught him listening at the door, and threw him out before he could hear the whole thing.

He heard enough to pass on the identifying criteria to Voldemort. He heard enough to tell Voldemort that a boy who could destroy him would be born at the end of July to parents who had thrice defied Voldemort. He heard enough to cause harm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ccollinsmith (Post 6012325)
His reaction after Lily's death demonstrates pretty conclusively, I think, that he's not a sociopath. He does care.

Of course he cares - about his own feelings. The feelings of the people he has hurt don't come into it. The family he has helped to destroy don't matter - all that matters is that he is hurt. I think he is lacking in empathy. But then, I think that anyone who can become a DE is somewhat lacking in empathy. I am not saying sociopathic, not completely, but I do think that the members of that evil group distanced themselves from their fellow human beings emotionally, or they were already distant in that way. I don't think that anyone who could empathise with others could do the types of things that Snape and his ilk did. They wouldn't be part of a group that inflicted such cruelty and suffering, for enjoyment and/or personal gain.

Quote:

But at the same time, Severus' statement to Dumbledore (i.e., that he saves all the lives it is possible to save) indicates that it is equally likely that Severus saved Remus simply because Remus was a person being targeted by a Death Eater, and it was possible to save his life. It does not necessarily indicate that Severus put the anger behind him. It just shows that he was able in the end to rise above it.
Or, he was keeping safe someone who might have been protecting the real Harry.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6012519)
As Remus says later in HBP, Snape prepares the Wolfsbane potion perfectly for him every month. Severus could easily have tampered with it instead--if he hated Lupin that much.

[staff edit]

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But I think the anger and frustration Snape has toward Lupin during their year teaching at Hogwarts stems more from Dumbledore dismissing Snape's concerns about Lupin being untrustworthy. Dumbledore has charged him with protecting Harry, but then allows Lupin into the castle, who Snape deeply distrusts and who has a connection with someone everybody believes is out to kill Harry. Trying to balance those two quantities would have driven the man nuts.
Considering the massive second chance that Dumbledore gave to Snape, I think it's quite hypocritical of him to sulk and pout when Dumbledore chooses to trust someone else, someone who doesn't bear a Dark Mark. Doesn't he trust Dumbledore's judgement?

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Originally Posted by MerryLore (Post 6012984)
Well, there is one more example: when Neville and Ginny break into his office and try to steal the sword. Snape, in his anger.....gives them detention with Hagrid :rotfl: The Carrows were in charge of punishment, I thought, and would be far more harsh than anything Hagrid would choose, and I think Snape knew that. Plus, Snape could be really rough with Neville during the earlier years. He does seem to have mellowed to an extent.

Well, compared to being willing to put a family in mortal peril for personal gain, I guess one could call the bitter, vindictive Snape of the series "mellowed".

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Originally Posted by MerryLore (Post 6013009)
Ah, but Snape's detentions were given when Dumbledore was Headmaster and Snape had to answer to him. n DH, Dumbledore is dead and Snape is in charge and he only has to answer to Voldemort. I think if Snape were truly still angry with Neville to the extent that he seemed to be in the first book, he would have been only too happy to give him detention with the Carrows.

I think that's a basic level of decency, rather than anything spectacular. Not torturing teenagers or collaborating in the torture of teenagers is not an amazing acheivement. Rather, it is what anyone with the slightest shred of conscience would do. And really, that doesn't make Snape sound too good - if he would be willing to see a teenager he disliked tortured by his fellows. That makes him sound incredibly petty and cruel.

mirrormere May 24th, 2012 7:37 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
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Originally Posted by MerryLore (Post 6013009)
Ah, but Snape's detentions were given when Dumbledore was Headmaster and Snape had to answer to him. n DH, Dumbledore is dead and Snape is in charge and he only has to answer to Voldemort. I think if Snape were truly still angry with Neville to the extent that he seemed to be in the first book, he would have been only too happy to give him detention with the Carrows.

No where, from what I can recall, do we ever see Dumbledore correct Snape on his detentions or even for bullying his students (which is where I think DD should have stepped in, though I think he had reasons for not doing so). The closest he comes is telling Snape that Harry is spending more time in detention with him than out--and even here he doesn't tell him to change anything.

Snape also promised DD he would protect the students and he didn't seem to be one to go back on his promises. As for his anger with Neville, to me that always seemed only tied to Neville's incompetence (even McGonagall's patience was tried with this child). As soon as Neville improved, Snape didn't go after him as much, even protecting him in OotP, albeit with trademark snark.

StarryVeil May 24th, 2012 10:28 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
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Originally Posted by mirrormere (Post 6012519)
As Remus says later in HBP, Snape prepares the Wolfsbane potion perfectly for him every month. Severus could easily have tampered with it instead--if he hated Lupin that much.

And when, as a consequence, something wrong happened to Lupin, Dumbledore would never suspect Snape? :whistle: IMO, whether he wished to tamper with the potion or not, Snape would never have done it anyway, out of fear of Dumbledore's anger.

MerryLore May 24th, 2012 11:00 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
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Originally Posted by StarryVeil (Post 6013055)
And when, as a consequence, something wrong happened to Lupin, Dumbledore would never suspect Snape? :whistle: Whether he wished to tamper with the potion or not, Snape would never have done it anyway, out of fear of Dumbledore's anger.

Snape saved Lupin's life during the flight of the 7 Potters, at a time when there was nothing left of Dumbledore but a portrait, and I personally don't think he feared it.

Dumbledore once asked him how many people he had watched die, and Snape responded with something like "recently, only those I could not save." This, to me, is the best example of how much Snape had changed. He went from someone who probably gave no thought to anyone dying (except himself and Lily) when he gave the prophecy to Voldemort, to someone who was actively concerned with other human beings surviving.

ccollinsmith May 24th, 2012 11:46 pm

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
In addition, Dumbledore had to talk Snape into not wanting to be dead after Lily's death. Based on that, and on the dangerous life Snape lives for the next 17 years, I don't think he has much concern for his own personal well-being. Consequently, I strongly doubt he has any fear whatsoever concerning Dumbledore's anger.

IMO, he doesn't tamper with the potion because his essential orientation has changed from practicing dark magic to defending against dark magic. That doesn't mean that he doesn't still have serious issues with anger or that his anger does not often blind him and affect his disposition. But I do think it means that he no longer has an interest in using magic to cause harm.

I agree with Merry's interpretation of the conversation in Dumbledore's office. At his core, Snape changed.

Goddess_Clio May 25th, 2012 12:05 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
[staff edit-deleted comment]

Considering the people we're talking about are Snape and Lupin, I'd give Snape that medal! This shows that in the intervening years between his death eater youth and his OOTP adulthood he grew as a person enough to put some amount of his petty rivalries behind him.

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Considering the massive second chance that Dumbledore gave to Snape, I think it's quite hypocritical of him to sulk and pout when Dumbledore chooses to trust someone else, someone who doesn't bear a Dark Mark. Doesn't he trust Dumbledore's judgement?
I don't think this is hypocritical of Snape at all. He had a very bad experience(to say the least) involving Lupin as a boy, one in which he almost lost his life, and to this day it is still unclear to him whether Lupin was in on the prank from the beginning or not. If I were in Snape's position and was confronted with someone I thought had been a part of a conspiracy to kill me, I'd never trust that person again either and it wouldn't make any difference to me whether everyone else on the planet trusted that person or not. I don't blame Snape at all for mistrusting Lupin.

I don't think Dumbledore giving Snape a second chance himself even enters into the equation; Lupin could make the same argument to Dumbledore about Dumbledore hiring Snape and, in fact, many people did make that argument to Dumbledore knowing Snape's history with the death eaters.

I also don't think Dumbledore "choosing to trust somone else" comes into the picture either as Snape would soon find out; Snape got very jealous of Harry's time with Dumbledore and wanted to know what secrets Dumbledore was confiding in a boy who couldn't even close his mind to Voldemort. It seems that Snape would know, likewise, whether Dumbledore was having secret meetings with Lupin as well and I'm reasonably confident in stating an assumption that Dumbledore probably never did have any meetings with Lupin like he had with Snape or Harry. Snape knew how important he was to Dumbledore. He knew he was a valuable asset that Dumbledore couldn't squander.

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Well, compared to being willing to put a family in mortal peril for personal gain, I guess one could call the bitter, vindictive Snape of the series "mellowed".
Wha--wow... did you realy just say that? This is verging on gushing coming from you! Another handful of posts and we'll have you singing Snape's praises from the rooftops! :D

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I think that's a basic level of decency, rather than anything spectacular. Not torturing teenagers or collaborating in the torture of teenagers is not an amazing acheivement. Rather, it is what anyone with the slightest shred of conscience would do. And really, that doesn't make Snape sound too good - if he would be willing to see a teenager he disliked tortured by his fellows. That makes him sound incredibly petty and cruel.
But the thing is that he wasn't willing to see a teenager he disliked tortured. He had the opportunity to condemn Neville and Ginny to the Carrows and he didn't hand them over, he sent them to Hagrid. I find your argument against Snape here inconsistent. He clearly does have a shed of conscience due to his treatment of Neville and Ginny and their punishments in DH which shows that he is not willing to see someone he dislikes tortured simply because he dislikes them, and therefore your statement about him sounding petty and cruel is unfounded and unsupported.

StarryVeil May 25th, 2012 3:10 am

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 
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Originally Posted by Merrylore (Post 6013062)
Snape saved Lupin's life during the flight of the 7 Potters, at a time when there was nothing left of Dumbledore but a portrait…

Because, IMO, Lupin was potentially protecting the real Harry.

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Dumbledore once asked him how many people he had watched die, and Snape responded with something like "recently, only those I could not save." This, to me, is the best example of how much Snape had changed. He went from someone who probably gave no thought to anyone dying (except himself and Lily) when he gave the prophecy to Voldemort, to someone who was actively concerned with other human beings surviving.
I would say, as others on this thread have mentioned, Snape mellowed out a lot in the years folowing the Potters’ deaths, having, in a manner of speaking, gotten a dose of his own medicine.

For me, personally, anyone who, at any point in their life, was able to send a one-year-old baby to his death has an essentially distorted moral compass. Sure, he was nowhere near as sociopathic as Voldemort or Bellatrix. But, as evidenced by the snide pleasure he took in poisoning Neville’s toad, some traces of sadism sure remained in him.

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Originally Posted by ccolinsmith (Post 6013068)
Based on that, and on the dangerous life Snape lives for the next 17 years, I don't think he has much concern for his own personal well-being.

Actually, that would be 14 comfortable years at Hogwarts - escaping a long stint in Azkaban and treating the children under his care harshly - and 3 dangerous years as a double agent. :)

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Consequently, I strongly doubt he has any fear whatsoever concerning Dumbledore's anger.
I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t have wanted to face the consequences of poisoning Lupin as that would break DD’s trust and DD’ trust was what Snape’s whole life depended on. And poisoning Lupin would most definitely have earned him a ticket to Azkaban.

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Originally Posted by Goddess_Clio (Post 6013072)
Considering the people we're talking about are Snape and Lupin, I'd give Snape that medal!

Except Lupin never really did anything to warrant Snape’s irrevocable hatred. More on that below.

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This shows that in the intervening years between his death eater youth and his OOTP adulthood he grew as a person enough to put some amount of his petty rivalries behind him.
I should think that, with Dumbledore around, Snape would never have the guts to poison Lupin even if he wanted to. I’m not saying he would have poisoned him but, IMO, he wasn’t above some mild tampering – tampering which DD’s presence would surely have put a stopper on (if Snape had indeed had the desire to tamper with the potion). What I’m trying to say is, I don’t think not tampering with Lupin’s potion sheds any light on Snape’s maturity because he couldn’t have tampered with it anyway, mature or not.

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I don't think this is hypocritical of Snape at all. He had a very bad experience(to say the least) involving Lupin as a boy, one in which he almost lost his life, and to this day it is still unclear to him whether Lupin was in on the prank from the beginning or not. If I were in Snape's position and was confronted with someone I thought had been a part of a conspiracy to kill me, I'd never trust that person again either and it wouldn't make any difference to me whether everyone else on the planet trusted that person or not. I don't blame Snape at all for mistrusting Lupin.
Firstly, even if Snape himself did not trust Lupin, he really was in no position to throw around suspicion on other people. Lupin had never done a seriously criminal thing in his life other than, in Snape’s mind, a reckless schoolboy prank. Snape, on the other hand, had been a DE – a terrorist, basically, who had done much worse things than playing a thoughtlessly fatal prank on his childhood archenemy – and DD had given him a second chance at an Azkaban-free life. Considering all that, I should think Snape of all people would know the value and accuracy of DD’s trust, instead of mistrusting his judgment and depriving others of the same second chance Snape himself had been lucky to get.

Secondly, regarding his mistrust of Lupin. Honestly, what did Snape have against Lupin other than an unconfirmed suspicion that he’d tried to kill him as a teenager? Nothing, really. And, about the werewolf prank itself, if Snape had had the maturity to leave aside his blindfold of grudges and self-pity and look at the situation objectively, he would have been able to figure out that Lupin would NEVER willingly take part in a conspiracy to kill someone, let alone throw the topic of his lycanthropy out in the open for people to find out about. You can dislike someone, but normally, if you’re a mature adult, you’ll also be able to acknowledge reason – which, in this case, was that Lupin just wasn’t the kind of person who would intentionally set out to kill someone.

And about FurryDice’s claim of Snape’s hypocrisy… I agree. He himself had killed people during his - fortunately for him - short stint as a DE. He certainly hadn’t had any qualms about sending a one-year-old baby and its family to their deaths. He still expects Dumbledore to confide all his plans in him. And yet, Snape himself can’t look past the suspicion that Lupin had tried to kill him as a teenager. Plus, he sure is quick to point out how Sirius was “capable of murder” at sixteen and how that, therefore, should be a reason for DD not to trust him. Definitely hypocrisy, IMO.


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