Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Of course, we don't know when Severus took up his secret alias of Half-Blood Prince, only that it was written inside his sixth year potions book. I can easily see him adding "Half-Blood" to Prince as his way of maintaining a connection to Lily after the breakup of their friendship. It would be such an odd name for a potential DE to assume especially when he so disliked his father and would probably want to distance himself from that part of his heritage. He never shared the name with anyone, just as no one knew of his extraordinary love for her.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

SIP just mentioned something that I hadn't really thought of, and that is when we see him talking about his father with Lily, Severus doesn't seem to show any real animosity toward him, he just seems resigned to "that is the way he is." He does indicate how glad he is that he will be getting away from home for at least 10 months out of the year. But, it's more like he's glad he'll be avoiding everything, not that he actually hates his father or mother -- he just wants away from the situation.

Since the nickname appears in his 6th Year Potions book, the year after his and Lily's friendship ended, he may have been doing some soul searching over the Summer break and trying to find something that would help make him feel a bit better about himself.

We know he was very intelligent, and had probably been dabbling around with different potions idea for a bit, and I think maybe he might have decided to really get serious with his potions studies since that was one of his strongest subjects. Maybe he even thought by excelling in that he might be able to gain back some of Lily's respect (this is assuming that Gryffindor and Slytherin had joint potions classes then as they did when Harry was in school). It might have been just a shred of hope for him to hang onto.

But, if he was going to make notes in his Potions book about his own little changes to the instructions as well as some of the other notes about spells and such in there, I'd guess he probably didn't want to have his own name on the book, so he made up a name that reflected both his blood status, which he was not ashamed of, even though he was in a House of mostly pure bloods, and took his mother's "royal" name of "Prince," which was his way of saying he was special because of that. It may have even been his middle name, as it is a custom in some families to use the mother's maiden name as a middle name.

Just some additional thoughts :).

(Wonder if JKR will ever reveal if Severus had a middle name and what it was?)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I seem to recall that his middle name was Tobias, after his father, but I'm not entirely certain. :)

That's an interesting point about Snape never seeming to reveal any amnosity towards his father during the scene with young Lily; "He doesn't like anything much." Maybe a part of him was indeed resigned to the fact that Tobias would always be abusive/ not a proper father to him. But, when he became a Death Eater, perhaps Snape forced himself to (temporarily) turn such non commital thoughts into resentment- a way, almost, to make his subscription to such deeply prejudices towards muggles/muggle borns 'easier' for him.

Just my opinion. :)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

This is only my opinion, so, it's worth just about that much, but I've always thought that Severus joined the DEs because he just wanted to belong somewhere and to have a sense of power over his life. I don't think he ever totally bought into the "Muggles and Mudbloods have to die" ideology. But, one of his worst shortcomings was that he put aside any moral or ethical beliefs he might have had at that time and went with something to gain a sense of power. I think someone quoted Dumbledore as calling it "reflected glory." That he compromised himself for that, to me, is one of the reasons that he needed redemption.

But, I think Severus' lack of commitment to Voldemort and his cause was also why it was so easy for him to change allegiance to Dumbledore when he had to opportunity. I don't think he'd have had the courage to leave the DEs without being spurred on by Lily's being in danger. Otherwise, I think he'd have tried to hover under the radar and done the minimum amount needed to survive in the group. Possibly, if different opportunity of some type had arisen (I think if he'd gotten the job at Hogwarts he'd have been able to break away as he would have had Dumbledore's protection to fall back on, but, he'd have always been a hunted man by the DEs) he might have been able to work up the courage to get out, but not just on his own. I'm sure word of Regulus Black's demise was made well known so that potential defectors would be discouraged.

I've seen speculation that Severus middle name was Tobias, but never actually heard or read anything where JKR verified that.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I mentioned a quote in which Dumbledore referred to "the ambitious seeking some shared glory"; that might be what you're thinking of.

Here's more from Rowling on Snape:

Rowling chat session Nithya: Lily detested Mulciber Avery. If Snape really loved her, why didn't he sacrifice their company for her sake? J.K. Rowling: Well, that is Snape’s tragedy. Given his time over again he would not have become a Death Eater, but like many insecure, vulnerable people (like Wormtail) he craved membership of something big and powerful, something impressive. He wanted Lily and he wanted Mulciber too. He never really understood Lily’s aversion; he was so blinded by his attraction to the dark side he thought she would find him impressive if he became a real Death Eater.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I wouldn't say that means he only did it to fit in, but yes, fitting in is a part of it. Why did he choose these people to fit in? I'm sure not every Slytherin was a part of or wanted to be a part of the Death Eaters.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I don't think it was implied that "every" Slytherin was a part of or wanted to be a part of the DEs. We were discussing possible motivations for Severus wanting to join them, and many of us feel that one motivation was to gain the status that he very mistakenly thought he would gain there. Possibly, as many young people are, he was impressed with them until he really found out the "inside story."

I'd say during recruiting they made the organization sound much more attractive and less evil than it was. I really don't think the recruiting posters read, "Lord Voldemort Wants You, Come join an evil, murderous gang of racist thugs, and we'll all hunt and kill Muggles and Mudbloods together." I think they were a bit more subtle.

Why did he chose the DEs to fit in? Because they seemed to be the only ones who were interested in having him. We see him as pretty much a total loner (except for Lily) during his Hogwart years until he hooks up with Mulciber and Avery. I think her influence probably went a long way to temper his real involvement with them, and once that was gone, he was fair game.

Yes, (before someone else brings it up) it was his own fault that their friendship ended, but that doesn't change the fact that it still left him more vulnerable to being drawn more easily to the bad side without it.

That was the quote, Brian. I wonder if Severus thought he could belong to the group and not be as bad as they were, or not have to be involved in their "activities"? Did he see himself as being able to "wear the colors" but not actually be a member of the gang -- that's partly what I was talking about with "reflected glory." Also, that people feared LV. Maybe he thought they'd fear him just because he was a DE and that he could keep his own hands clean. I don't think he felt that he would be like Bella and her crew.

I think he saw himself more like Lucius, who, I don't think ever killed anyone, either. I can see Lucius helping to fund the group, turning people in, and other really nasty stuff. But, like Draco, I don't think Lucius had the stomach for murder. I think Lucius may have been young Severus' "hero," since he was the first to welcome him at Hogwarts and may have spent time with him in Slytherin House. We know they stayed "friends" for years.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Many abused/neglected children exhibit what is called a flat affect. Emotionally, they are neutral about everything. To me, this seems to very accurately describe Snape’s early behavior. However, as such children get older, learn about the world and are able to escape the abuse, many of them become angry about how they were treated--especially when they enter their teen years--and anger and hatred toward parents develops later. Depending on the severity of the abuse they may exhibit symptoms of C-PTSD (Complex Post Traumatic Stress Disorder,) several of which Severus seems to have and possibly explains much of his adult behavior that comes off as extreme.

I’d like to know too. Sometimes I think I’d like JKR to write a book just about Snape, but then I decide it’s much more stimulating thinking about the possibilities than knowing what her version might be.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Snape may not have thought he had to do his own wet work, but I don't think he was quite like Lucius, either, whom I view as very much a front-runner. I.e., totally in his element as an oppressor, but not so much when the tables were turned (as they were in DH). They differ in that Lucius needs a public community he can belong to, so that he can feel superior as a member of that community.

Snape had no such community, and needed no such. I must admit I have a sneaking bit of sympathy for Snape because like him, I have a sky-high opinion of myself. :) More seriously, he has an unshakable belief in himself--in part, I think, because his upbringing didn't allow him to have an unshakable belief in anyone or anything else. Hence his styling himself "The Half-Blood Prince." I do not feel that title was entirely ironic; he knew he was without any kind of social center, but he felt confident in his worth, at least by his own measure.

So then, how do I explain his joining the Death Eaters, if he did not either cleave to their ideals or need them to bolster his ego? Intuitively I think he sought them out as validation of his worth, rather than as a means for developing it--both for himself and for others. That is to say, by joining the Death Eaters, he was essentially wearing a badge that marked him as someone to be reckoned with. I think that if he could have had that acknowledgement without joining the Death Eaters, he would not have joined them. So yes, if that's what you mean by "reflected glory," then I think that's exactly right.

Regarding Snape's middle name:

Probably we'll have to wait until HBP comes out in Pottermore. We'll get our "book" on Snape at that point, perhaps.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I didn't mean to compare Lucius and Severus in their intentions to join the DE's and if that's how it came across, my fault for miswording it. What I meant was that I don't think either Severus or Lucius had the stomach for murdering anyone. I think Lucius would have been able to stand back and watch someone else do murder, but don't think he had the guts to do it himself. And, I don't think Severus had the heart to either watch voluntarily, or to commit murder. I just don't think it was in him. I see him a bit more like Draco in that matter, maybe even strutting around a bit like Draco in that "reflected glory," but, once the chips were down, just not able to carry out the deed.

Yes, I agree that Lucius liked the "social" context of being a DE as it probably gave him a high standing among other purists. I think he enjoyed the admiration of his home and family and family name, etc. Severus, on the other hand, I think, was just looking for, as you said, validation of himself -- a group of some importance has accepted him and feels that he is worthy to belong. Maybe that made him feel important. I'm not sure that he really understood everything that was expected of him when he took the Dark Mark.

As for keeping both Lily's and Avery/Mulciber's friendships: we don't actually see what they did to Mary Macdonald that was so Dark Magic. I can't imagine a Hogwart's student using Dark Magic on another one and not being punished for it (unless it was Harry trying to slice-and-dice Draco with Sectum Sempra).

I think it's pretty obvious that Lily was not aware of all that the Marauders were up to (which may have been why Severus was trying to catch them in the act so he could show her that they weren't as innocent as they seemed to be -- running around with a werewolf, which I think he'd figured out and wanted to catch them at it). Maybe Severus didn't see that much difference in Avery and Mulciber's pranks and the pranks that the Marauders pulled. He, like Lily, may not have been aware of all that his Housemates were up to when he wasn't around.

I'm not personally comparing them, because we have no way to do that, never actually seeing anything that Severus' two Housemates do. I'm just saying that in his perception (and having been on the receiving end several times I'd say, from his reaction at the beginning of SWM when Sirius approaches him) it may not have seemed that different or that his Housemates were any worse. So, he may truly have not seen her cause for alarm.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Right, but if many people were able to recognize the evil accompanied with the DE's and what they did, then Snape was just as able. Perhaps they were more subtle in their recruiting habits, we don't know. What we do know, however, is that Voldemort was up to absolutely no good, and people knew of this. Now, if someone decides to overlook this mere fact or see no significance in it, that's his/her own doing. Personally, I think implying that Snape was perhaps hoodwinked into becoming a DE lessens not only his character, but the heinous crimes he possibly committed during his stint with the DE's. Just my opinion. Furthermore, while I do agree that part of the reason Snape joined LV's ranks was to feel a sense of importance and acceptance, I don't believe that to be his only motive. I don't think that Snape, who was very intelligent, readily joined Voldemort (who, by that time, was already referred to as You-know-who) with the sole intention of fitting in and without a thought or care towards the ideology or actions of the DE's... (Not saying you believe this or anything, but I'm sure that some are of this opinion. :)) Regardless of whatever 'subtlety' LV used in his recruiting habits, I doubt he painted the picture that possible future followers would be joining the boy scouts. Again, just my opinion.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

We have not been implying that Severus was "hoodwinked," but that he and many other younger recruits were not entering the DEs "fully informed." We see how Draco marched willingly into their ranks, with the encouragement of his Auntie Bella. And, Draco did know pretty much what they were all about. But, knowing what they were about and seeing it first-hand, are two different things. So, I personally do not think the younger DEs knew what it was like to watch someone tortured and/or murdered.

This in no way negates the responsibility of someone joining the DEs. Severus joined of his own accord, and bears that responsibility. His membership in the group is a black mark against him and by even condoning their actions, whether complacently or implicitly, was wrong and was one of the reasons that he was in need of redemption.

I think it was also mentioned in our previous discussion that we were wondering, if Severus had moral/ethical reservations about torture and murder, which many of us think he did, what would spur him to join a group that was noted for these actions? What would make him compromise his own beliefs? And, that was what we were tossing about: some ideas as to why he might have overridden those and joined up with LV and his merry little band of thugs anyway.

Since we are not shown or told of any "heinous crimes" that he committed while he was a DE, and, just the opposite, he is berated by a DE for being MIA when the going got rough, I don't feel that there is any information supporting that he did anything more than spy. Yes, his participation in the group is "guilt by association," but, IMO, Severus did not have the stomach to commit "heinous crimes" anymore than Draco had the stomach to kill Dumbledore (who even says that Draco's attempts were so lame as to be almost non-threatening -- he sure didn't know that Katie and her friend were going to be so nosy as to open a package that was to be delivered to the Headmaster of the school).

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. I do, however, think that "absurd" is a bit of an insulting way to define some people's differing opinions. Yes, Severus may have been book-smart, as we know he was. But, he may not have had a lot of "people smarts." We don't know. We do know he was socially awkward and had a hard time while in school interacting with others. Since he seemed to me comfortable with Avery and Mulciber, this may have led to his feeling comfortable with other DEs (we know he and Lucius were friends). He was accepted by them, something that seemed to be denied him with all but his wannabe DE buddies. So, I don't see it as absurd that he would see what he wanted to see in them and the group, rather than what was really there.

No, I'm sure he realized he wasn't joining the Boy Scouts, but, as I stated above, sometimes the perception and the reality are two way different things. And, I don't think it took him long to realize this.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Which is why I posted the heinous crimes he possibly committed. And, he was berated by Bellatrix, an ultra-fanatic who I'm sure would find anyone less fervent than her to be traitorous or what have you. But, yes, he was berated as you say. Does that necessarily negate any possibility that he could have ever committed an abhorrent crime? I personally do not think so. But, hey, that may just be me.

Oh, and as I had originally stated, I wasn't meaning to be 'insulting' when I made the absurd comment. But, I can belatedly see how some, particularly those of the opinion I was 'insulting', could take offense to the comment. So, yeah... my bad, and I apologize. But I changed it, so if whoever I may have insulted would bestow me with forgiveness, I'll be forever grateful! :huggles:

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

IMO, Ms. Rowling chose to include the scene where Severus is belittled by Bella for being a slacker, but did not chose to put in anything at all suggesting that Severus committed any heinous crimes. She also had Dumbledore ask "How many people have you watched die?", not how many people did you kill or help to torture. I think, if Severus' DE background had included anything really heinous, the author would have alluded to it in some way. By not doing so, I think she is showing that he was someone who willingly joined a group of blood purists who used brutal methods to obtain their goals, but that he, himself did not participate. He was guilty by association and by complacency, which was bad enough. But, while he was low enough to listen at keyholes at the time he hears the Prophecy, while he was uncaring enough to carry it to Voldemort, he was not evil enough to actually get blood on his own hands or take pleasure in watching someone tortured.

He had plenty to account for, but IMO, he was not one to commit the type of actions that included direct physical harm or death to an individual. I think he drew the line there. That doesn't make him any less culpable, but it does make him less brutal, which I see as one small plus in an otherwise very low moral point in his life.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Not the fact that he was berated, but the fact that he was berated and did not offer up even an indication to Bellatrix that he had done any kind of "evil deed," even when he had a free opportunity to do so, and which would have gotten Bellatrix off his back. I agree it is hardly definitive, but at some point, the fact that there was never any evidence that he murdered or tortured anyone must carry some weight. (Maybe he would have preferred to have Bellatrix suspicious of him, so that Voldemort might not. Our man Snape moves in mysterious ways sometimes.)

I tend to think that Snape was in denial about the deeds the Death Eaters performed. It is an affliction very common among the intelligent. Ignorance is bliss. :)

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I replied to this on the Death Eaters thread:
http://www.cosforums.com/showthread....44#post5927544

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

If Snape started teaching at Hogwarts shortly after asking Dumbledore to protect Lily, he would have been around 21 years old--rather young. So young, in fact, that he would be teaching students that he had gone to school with. For the first two or three years after he returned to Hogwarts, he would have known the students he taught in his upper level classes from when he attended.

It's always seemed to me that Severus' behavior toward his students seemed reminiscent of how he spent his school days--favoring Slytherin and dissing the other houses. If, when he returned as a teacher, his previous school mates tried to treat him the way they saw Snape treated when he attended Hogwarts, I could see him responding in kind. It may be he just never got out of that rut.

I know, I know--that's not an excuse for an adult, but I think it may shed a bit of light on his behavior.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

Well, I wouldn't call a 21-year-old an adult. Although the suffix "-teen" is no longer tacked onto the number, most early 20-somethings are still very teenager-y.

I think it's definitely important that he began teaching in his early twenties. This means that a fair chunk of his students would have known him as a peer, and the seventh years may have been around to see SWM. Whether it was preemptive or done in response to student behavior, I think Severus first began coming down hard on students because he wanted to establish his authority despite his youth. I wouldn't necessary call this a continuation of his schoolyard behavior, since the one time we see him fighting back as a teen involved him swearing and using a cutting spell. As an adult, his style is more sarcastic and authoritative. I therefore look at it as an attempt to gain enough power to frighten off anyone who would even try throwing the old "Snivellus" taunt around. I think he continues in this vein because he values the efficiency and protection it provides him.

The question of why he seems to favor Slytherin is an interesting one, with more than one answer IMHO. IIRC, there are already rumors after Harry's arrival that Snape favors the Slytherins (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Does this mean his reasons are not entirely Harry-specific? Is he cozying up to the DE crowd? Does he feel Slytherin House gets too bad of a rep and wants to visibly back them up? Does he see his Slytherins outside of the classroom and honestly like them? I tend to see it as a combination of spy job and House loyalty, personally, but as we never get a straight answer to this question, I think it's very up in the air.

Re: Severus Snape: Character Analysis Reboot v.6
 

I completely agree, that was put in words far better than anything I could've said. :tu: I definately do feel that, at first, Snape began his arguably harsh persona/teaching methods because he felt he needed to establish a much needed sense of authority before any pupils who knew him whilst he was learning at Hogwarts even tried to mention SWM etc. Afterwards, I again agree with that I tend to see his treatment as partially house pride and a precaution in case Voldemort ever returned. It could also be him subconsciously echoing his school years- one could say that the rivalry between Gryffindor and Slytherin pupils was not questioned; it was deemed as a 'part' of Hogwarts life, however wrong that part may be.

Just my opinion. :)