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-   -   Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy? (http://www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?t=16339)

Tonks08 August 9th, 2003 3:50 pm

Do you think Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy?
 
I searched for this, but i didn't find anything...

So anyways, Does Voldemort know?

We already know that Snape is a spy from the Ootp, but how long do you think his spying would last? And if Voldie finds out do you think he'll kill Snape, so then Harry might beable to take N.E.W.T potions if he gets a new Professor.

Bensoir August 9th, 2003 4:15 pm

I dont see how Voldemort could know, Snape is still alive and if Voldemort did know then he'd be dead. Unless he is using Snape against the Order without him knowing. Not very probable though. Snape could be using the Polyjuice potion and turning himself into Crouch as he never died and can't exactly tell Voldemort he's alive.

I also think Harry will do Potions at NEWT as Dumbledore will want to keep Harry close to Snape to carry on with occulmancy etc.

Tonks08 August 9th, 2003 4:25 pm

Yeah, like at the end of the GoF, Dumbledore said, "At great Persional Risk" So I think that Snape might die, because I'm sure that Voldemort doesn't let his deatheaters drink at their meetings, so If Voldemort would keep them for an hour, Snape would be **** out of luck, wouldn't he?

turbotriple_power August 9th, 2003 4:36 pm

Yah, i don't think Voldie knows...
But if Snape is a spy and he is using polyjuice potion to look like crouch well did LV suspect him because he wasn't there in the departement of mysteries?
I mean i would think that if the real Crouch was still alive he would've went, no?
And by the way we know from the GoF that Snape is a spy.
It was ritten when Harry was in the pensive when it was Karkaroff that was accused.

________________

"I told you!" Ron hissed at Hermione as she stared down the article. "I told you not to annoy Rita Skeeter! She's made you out to be some sort of-scarlet woman!"
Hermione stopped looking atonished and snorted with laughter. "Scarlet woman?" she repeated, shaking with surpressed giggles as she looked around at Ron.
"It's what my mum calls them," Ron muttered, his ears going red.:lol:

Sirius83 August 9th, 2003 4:42 pm

Nah, i doubt it. I have a feeling Snape's cover may be blown during book 6 though.

Bensoir August 9th, 2003 4:44 pm

I think his cover will be blown also.

Newt August 9th, 2003 5:47 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tonks08
And if Voldie finds out do you think he'll kill Snape, so then Harry might beable to take N.E.W.T potions if he gets a new Professor.

At this point Voldemort knowing Snape is a spy isn't going to change much. Snape abandoned Voldemort, he's already a marked man. Voldemort even states this in the GoF when explaining the six missing spaces in the Death Eaters.

And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service [Evan Rosier, Travers, and Wilkes] . One too cowardly to return [Karkaroff] ...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever [Snape] ...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who was already reentered my service [Crouch, Jr.].

xlupin_loverx August 9th, 2003 6:02 pm

I suppose Voldemort could know, but he doesn't seem to be doing anything about it. Well, so far. I have a gut feeling a lot is going to happen with Snape in the next two books, and that we may learn a lot more about him. (At least I hope so.)

But also, Snape is a master at Legilimency and Occlumency. He even says, "The Dark Lord, for instance almost always knows when someone is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection." (page 531, hardback American edition) He's obviously talking about when we was a Death Eater and spying for the Order, but he could easily also be talking about what he's having to do now. If Voldie's groupies are trying to find out if Snape has betrayed him he could be tricking them with Occlumency to think that nothing's up. Just a thought.

Tonks08 August 9th, 2003 6:35 pm

I know that Voldie doesn't know that Snape is a spy or he'd be dead, or if he did know he could use Snape to get into the Order plans and stuff.

But I agree with what turbotriple_power said: "But if Snape is a spy and he is using polyjuice potion to look like crouch well did LV suspect him because he wasn't there in the departement of mysteries?
I mean i would think that if the real Crouch was still alive he would've went, no?"

BEcause Crouch was "his most faithful death eater":scared:
So, either that Snape's not actually a deatheater and hanging with Voldie and his morons, or he's just not in Voldie's inner circle :p

peevesfan August 9th, 2003 6:35 pm

I, too, am dying to learn more about Snape! I'm so confused; obviously since his cover was blown he cannot simply be a spy anymore (without resorting to Polyjuice Potion or the like), but in the fifth book, Sirius refers to him as Lucius Malfoy's "lapdog." I know that Sirius has been wrong before, but I can't help wondering what that's supposed to mean. Why does he specifically refer to Lucius? Is there more of a connection there besides the fact that Snape used to be a Death Eater as well?

Auror Williamson August 9th, 2003 6:43 pm

My personal prediction on this matter is that if caught by You-Know-Who, Snape will most certainly die. Perhaps tortured to death? I also don't think that Snape is actually such a bad man as Harry thinks, and would willingly give up his life to save Harry. (Just take a look at my siggy. I am a member of the Severus Snape Appreciation Society.)

peevesfan August 9th, 2003 7:14 pm

I think it's entirely possible that Snape could be using Polyjuice Potion to pose as Crouch; the fact that Crouch didn't show up in the Ministry of Magic doesn't necessarily have to be a giveaway for Voldemort. Snape (posing as Crouch) could have given him any number of excuses for why he wasn't there. But I doubt that's all that Snape is doing, because at the end of GoF Dumbledore says something like "You know what you need to do; are you prepared to do it?" He and Dumbledore must've had a discussion sometime in the past in which they decided what the game plan was for Snape should Voldemort ever return to power. I just wonder what it is!

I don't think there's any way that Snape could simply be a spy posing as a Death Eater anymore. As some have already said, Voldemort states that he believes Snape has left him forever in GoF. So it has to be something more than that. I have a strong feeling it involves Lucius Malfoy somehow, as I said in my above post (#10.) Maybe Snape, through Occlumency, has led Lucius to believe that he is a double agent. We know that Lucius shares things with him because in OoTP he tells Sirius that Lucius figured out that he came to the station with Harry disguised as Padfoot. Lucius has got to play a big role in all this, right?

Trilhas September 28th, 2003 10:06 pm

It's absolutely certain that Voldemort knows about Snape. I mean he knows about everything. Then in GoF, he actually points out the missing death eaters among which one he says has left their side forever, which must mean Snape. But what happened to Karkaroff?

hesdead-dealwithit September 29th, 2003 12:40 am

I don't think he knows, because if he did then he would tell Lucius to kill him right away. I think he suspects that Snape has "left him forever," but doesn't think that Snape would actually go to Dumbledore's side.

chop September 29th, 2003 1:53 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trilhas
It's absolutely certain that Voldemort knows about Snape. I mean he knows about everything. Then in GoF, he actually points out the missing death eaters among which one he says has left their side forever, which must mean Snape. But what happened to Karkaroff?

I'm pretty sure there is a thread discussing which one (Snape or Karkaroff) was the DE leaving LV forever and going to die and wich was the coward one, but now I don't remember where.

Starrlight September 29th, 2003 2:28 am

Suppose Snape's using polyjuice potion to appear as Winky the house elf?

hermione_fan October 4th, 2003 8:36 am

I think that Voldie knows a lot more than we think he does. I also think that his cover will be blown in book six.

Doggy October 4th, 2003 4:58 pm

We don't know how Snape spies. If he does it in person or what.. As people have suggested, he could be using polyjuice, even though I doubt it. So we don't know if his cover is blown or not.

But... Voldemort must know by now that Snape was a spy in the last war at least. In one of the trials (Kharkaroff's, I think it was) Dumbledore says to the whole court that Snape became a spy for him, and that he already has given evidence on the matter. This means that it's recorded in at least two trials. Someone (ie Malfoy) must have told Voldemort that by now..

Alcina October 4th, 2003 5:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doggy
We don't know how Snape spies. If he does it in person or what.. As people have suggested, he could be using polyjuice, even though I doubt it. So we don't know if his cover is blown or not.

But... Voldemort must know by now that Snape was a spy in the last war at least. In one of the trials (Kharkaroff's, I think it was) Dumbledore says to the whole court that Snape became a spy for him, and that he already has given evidence on the matter. This means that it's recorded in at least two trials. Someone (ie Malfoy) must have told Voldemort that by now..

We do know that Snape spies in person. When during an Occlumency lesson he sees in Harry's mind the dream he had where he saw Rookwood advising the Dark Lord, Snape says 'How doe that man and that room come to be in your mind?'

Snape knows that this dream is one of the ones Harry is getting out of the Dark Lord's head. How does he know that? How does he know it's not just a normal dream that happens to feature Rookwood (after all, his face is plastered on wanted posters everywhere, so Harry could quite easily be dreaming of him)?
The only way he could know that dream was a mind reading one, a real one was if he recognised the room, and knew Harry ahd never been there.

Now this seems to be quite clear to me; Snape recognises the room and knows where it is. And the only way he could recognise that room was if he's been there. So presumably he's been in the Dark Lord's presence recently, since he started living whereever he's living now.

As for the 'hadn't anyone told the Dark Lord about Karkaroff's trial' thing, my take is this. Wormtail had indeed told him. That's why in the graveyard scene he says 'One I believe has left me forever; he will be killed of course' But then later that night, I assume Snape turned up, claiming that he was actually a double agent, and look wasn't I good at it, Dumbledore believes me, I can spy inside the school! And the Dark Lord is used to being able to tell when someone's lying, and he doesn't sense Snape lying, so he figures that Snape's telling the truth.

Doggy October 4th, 2003 6:45 pm

It's possible That Voldemort believes that Snape is a double agent, yes but I would think he's a bit more suspicious than that.

Also, if (I said if) Snape spies by using polyjuice to impersonate for example Crouch Jr., he'd have been in that room anyway, so that isn't exactly clear proof. Besides; I don't think Snape knew about the dream being "real" so to speak; only he guessed correctly that Harry hadn't been practising occlumency enough. It's a Snape thing, trying to pin Harry down.

"Well you obviously need to practise more.."

Merrymime October 4th, 2003 7:09 pm

Well, I think it's possible (and I say only possible) that Snape is a metamorphmagus or is using polyjuice potion to be someone else in order to spy. But, it would definately not be Crouch Jr. The Dementors are in league with Voldemort and it was a Dementor that killed Crouch Jr. Now wouldn't the Dementor tell Voldemort that he's dead?

Orcag October 4th, 2003 8:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bensoir
I dont see how Voldemort could know, Snape is still alive and if Voldemort did know then he'd be dead. Unless he is using Snape against the Order without him knowing. Not very probable though. Snape could be using the Polyjuice potion and turning himself into Crouch as he never died and can't exactly tell Voldemort he's alive.

I also think Harry will do Potions at NEWT as Dumbledore will want to keep Harry close to Snape to carry on with occulmancy etc.

I think that Snape could be turning into Crouch, and Voldemort knows that Snape isn't a Deatheater (book 4) he said he will kill him. But he wouldn't be able to kill Snape if Snape was pretending to be Crouch, if Snape was disguised as Crouch and they went with Voldemort to kill Snape, they wouldn't be able to find him, cause he would be Crouch.

Wow, I don't think I make any sense, lol :whistle:

Siriusly_Addicted October 4th, 2003 9:18 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doggy
It's possible That Voldemort believes that Snape is a double agent, yes but I would think he's a bit more suspicious than that.

Also, if (I said if) Snape spies by using polyjuice to impersonate for example Crouch Jr., he'd have been in that room anyway, so that isn't exactly clear proof. Besides; I don't think Snape knew about the dream being "real" so to speak; only he guessed correctly that Harry hadn't been practising occlumency enough. It's a Snape thing, trying to pin Harry down.

"Well you obviously need to practise more.."

I definitely think Snape is spying on Voldemort's movement as a whole (maybe through some of the Death Eaters), but not necessarily spying on Voldemort directly. Whatever his plan, I believe he is using his Occlumency/Legilimency skills to spy. Like someone said earlier in the thread, the polyjuice potion only lasts for an hour at a time. There's just too much chance of being caught like that. I also believe that Voldemort knows that Dumbledore told the Wizengamot about Snape's spying for him. Voldemort is not the type to trust an underling, even if there has been no overt act of betrayal (as there has been in Snape's case); he's not likely to give Snape a second chance, so I don't think Snape has been able to get physically close to Voldemort. Whatever he knows has been picked from other people's minds.

I agree with you that Snape's question to Harry about the man and the room was a guess and not based on any first-hand knowledge.

Alcina October 5th, 2003 9:48 am

I don't believe the Polyjuice theory for two reasons.

1) The Dark Lord said on the night of his rebirth that he was going to kill the DE who had left forever (and I'm sure he meant Snape). But a year later Snape's still alive. This leads me to suppose that something has happened since to convince the Dark Lord that Snape is in fact faithful.

2) The necessity to take the potion and wait for it to finish working (which seems to take a minute or so, to judge by CoS) would mean that he'd turn up late every time the DEs were summoned. After a while I think this would be noticed and the reason speculated upon.

Merrymime October 5th, 2003 3:05 pm

Are we sure?
 
Okay, maybe I'm just stupid and don't remember something critical in the books, but are we absolutely, positively sure without a doubt that Snape is spying?

Is there some quote in the book that says Snape is actually spying or are we just presuming that, because he used to be a death eater?

I thought he was just sent away in the end of GOF to do something that he knows, but we don't.

chop October 5th, 2003 5:11 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merrymime
Okay, maybe I'm just stupid and don't remember something critical in the books, but are we absolutely, positively sure without a doubt that Snape is spying?

Is there some quote in the book that says Snape is actually spying or are we just presuming that, because he used to be a death eater?

I thought he was just sent away in the end of GOF to do something that he knows, but we don't.

Well, maybe he is recruiting a flubberworm army, but I don't think so...

Siriusly_Addicted October 5th, 2003 5:49 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alcina
I don't believe the Polyjuice theory for two reasons.

1) The Dark Lord said on the night of his rebirth that he was going to kill the DE who had left forever (and I'm sure he meant Snape). But a year later Snape's still alive. This leads me to suppose that something has happened since to convince the Dark Lord that Snape is in fact faithful.

2) The necessity to take the potion and wait for it to finish working (which seems to take a minute or so, to judge by CoS) would mean that he'd turn up late every time the DEs were summoned. After a while I think this would be noticed and the reason speculated upon.

I don't believe the Polyjuice theory either, and I agree completely with your second point. On thing about the first point, though: it may be that killing Snape (and I also thought he was the DE that Voldemort meant to kill) has been moved slightly down Voldemort's priority list. I think Voldemort may have been side-tracked by the Prophecy.

I'm thinking about that scene in Dumbledore's office after the tragic visit to the MoM. DD told Harry, "And so, since his (Voldemort's) return to his body, and particularly since your extraordinary escape from him last year, he has been determined to hear that prophecy in it's entirety." Voldemort's speech to the Death Eaters, in which he promised to kill one of those who was absent, happened before Harry got away. I suspect that maybe he decided hearing the Prophecy took priority over vengeance. With the Prophecy out of reach now, I think Snape should start looking over his shoulder.

I do see the flaw in this scenario, though. What's to stop LV from having one or more of his Death Eaters kill Snape while LV concentrates on the Prophecy, and why has he apparently not done so? I don't beleive for a minute that he would accept Snape's declaration of loyalty, but I don't know why he hasn't made any overt move against Snape either.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by Merrymime
Okay, maybe I'm just stupid and don't remember something critical in the books, but are we absolutely, positively sure without a doubt that Snape is spying?

Is there some quote in the book that says Snape is actually spying or are we just presuming that, because he used to be a death eater?

I thought he was just sent away in the end of GOF to do something that he knows, but we don't.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chapter 26 - Seen and Unforseen, Page 591 (American)

"That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to this Death Eaters."

"No - that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.

He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.

"Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again..."

I think that's where most people get the idea that he's spying. I'm not sure this is the whole story, though. I do think Snape is using his Occlumency/Legilimency skills to spy on Voldemort's organization, but there is probably more to it than that. Slightly OT, but I think this is part of the reason LV was so resentful of Harry in this book. Snape may be "spying" on a DE for information, but that won't be quite as good as Harry being able to "spy" on Voldemort directly. Once again, Snape is bested by a Potter and he doesn't like it at all.

BellatrixLeS October 5th, 2003 8:13 pm

We've seen through anecdotes in the book about former Death Eaters that once you join Voldemort, there's no turning back. If Voldy new that Snape was a spy, he would annihilate him, no questions asked.

Merrymime October 6th, 2003 2:48 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siriusly_Addicted
Chapter 26 - Seen and Unforseen, Page 591 (American)

"That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to this Death Eaters."

"No - that's your job, isn't it?" Harry shot at him.

He had not meant to say it; it had burst out of him in temper. For a long moment they stared at each other, Harry convinced he had gone too far. But there was a curious, almost satisfied expression on Snape's face when he answered.

"Yes, Potter," he said, his eyes glinting. "That is my job. Now, if you are ready, we will start again..."

I think that's where most people get the idea that he's spying. I'm not sure this is the whole story, though. I do think Snape is using his Occlumency/Legilimency skills to spy on Voldemort's organization, but there is probably more to it than that.

Thank you, Siriusly Addicted. I had forgotten that part, but I remember it now. It's a little vague. I agree in that I do think he probably is spying. But, I'm still not going to presume 100% that that's exactly what he's doing, though. I mean, it's so very risky, you know. I agree that Voldemort would kill Snape if he saw him and wouldn't believe Snape if he said he had come back to serve him. Also, if he's spying on a death eater, like Lucius or someone, he'd have to somehow make sure that that death eater didn't know he used to be a death eater. Because, obviously, he'd go report it to Voldemort immediately. Snape would also have to make sure that that death eater didn't tell Voldemort about him at all. Did that make sense?

So, if he's spying, then I would think he'd be concealing himself somehow from Voldemort and all the death eaters. Maybe he's a vampire and turning into a bat?! :D Ha ha! I laugh at the very thought, but perhaps. Or maybe he's just wearing an invisiblity cloak or something. I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud really.

Prof.Aze October 6th, 2003 3:51 pm

For me it's really no...

I think that's why Dumbledore particularly chose Snape to be the one to spy on Voldemort since he is an Occlumens and a very great Legilimens also.

Snape is very helpful when facing Voldemort becuase of Voldemort tries to penetrate Snapes mind, Snape can close his mind directly.

sawyer October 6th, 2003 7:22 pm

I think Voldie knows: at the end of GoF he say that some traitors will return to him. I'm very worried about Snape's destiny! :evil:

sindatur October 6th, 2003 7:31 pm

I think Voldemort has got to know that Snape is no longer on his side, and that he is on Dumbledore's side.

PS/SS, Voldemort was in Quirrel's turban for much of the year, and Snape knew Quirrel was aiding Voldemort. At the end of GoF in the Graveyard scene, there was the three Voldemort mentioned, I believe Voldemort was speaking of Snape when he said the One who has left me forever...

Having said that, we do not know that Snape is currently spying on Voldemort or the Death Eaters, we only assume that is his current assignment.

Fortescue October 6th, 2003 9:31 pm

I think that's one of the unsolved mysteries of Book 5. We now have pretty solid evidence that Snape is spying, but we also know that Voldemort was in on the game. So what is he doing now? It's possible he's using polyjuice potion... But Voldemort must've known when Harry escaped that Dumbledore would find Crouch Jr. Is he playing a double agent? But if he's doing that, how do we know he's not playing a double double agent? Convincing both Dumbledore and Voldemort that he's on each's side? When will we discover his true colors? Those are probably the major questions that remain to be answered...

angelous October 9th, 2003 5:21 am

The Dark Lord Knows
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bensoir
I dont see how Voldemort could know, Snape is still alive and if Voldemort did know then he'd be dead. Unless he is using Snape against the Order without him knowing. Not very probable though. Snape could be using the Polyjuice potion and turning himself into Crouch as he never died and can't exactly tell Voldemort he's alive.

I also think Harry will do Potions at NEWT as Dumbledore will want to keep Harry close to Snape to carry on with occulmancy etc.



Bensoir
Voldermort is suppost to be all seeing and i really think he knows
Lucius and bella drop a hint in Beyond The Veil. They said THE DARK LORD KNOWS ALWAYS
So that just for me proves at least he might know
i think Snape is on the dark side thats why he isnt dead already
And as for Dumbledore keeping harry close to snape he said in THE LAST PROFECY that He should have tought him not snape
SO i thint the dark lord knows

Lil Red Head May 6th, 2004 1:33 am

Hi all. I was following the now-closed "Snape and Voldemort - what they know..." thread and I wanted to mention something on a comment I made.

The whole thread over there was about the conversation between Snape and Quirrell in the 1st book about not getting on Snape's bad side, deciding your loyalties, etc. and whether or not Voldemort, being on the back of Quirrell's head, now realized that Snape was truely working for the Good Guys.

Well, the idea had come into my head that perhaps Voldemort was out in the forest, chasing unicorns, when Quirrell and Snape had their chat, and therefore, Voldemort wasn't actually present and didn't hear what Snape said. And in regards to Voldemort's attachment to Quirrell, on page 291, US paperback, it says: "He is with me wherever I go," (said Quirrell quietly).

I thought this could imply that while Voldemort was always with Quirrell, Quirrell didn't always have Voldemort (a bodiless Voldemort could have been wandering around while Quirrell slept, for instance).

However, I have found evidence to dispell my theory (at least in part). Chapter 17 (The Man With Two Faces), on page 293 (US paperback) has Voldemort saying to Harry, "you saw faithful Quirrell drinking it (unicorn blood) for me in the forest." So it was Quirrell in the forest, and not Voldemort out without Quirrell.

So I'll just go with agreeing with other posters over there (MonicaG, Magi) that Snape is just a double agent and both DD and Voldy think he's spying for their side. Of course, only one can be right. :eyebrows:

Nys May 6th, 2004 2:24 am

I think that Snape may still be a spy for the Order. Voldermort must still think that he's loyal to him, otherwise I'm pretty sure Snape would be dead by now. Who's to say he's one of the ones that Voldermort is talking about in the Graveyard, but that's already discussed in another thread.....

astaire May 6th, 2004 4:56 am

Well, I've always thought that Snape was the one of the 3 missing death eaters. There's Moody/Crouch, Karkaroff, and Snape. Voldie's just bidding his time until he kills Snape. He's known from the beginning and has a sinister little plan for him. Of course, Snape might not be spying at all. Maybe he lied about it to Harry. After all, would you be truthful about sensitive matter like that with a boy who has a direct telephone line with Lord Voldemort? I wouldn't.
Still, I go with my first theory. Anyway, I doubt polyjuice potion is a factor---especially turning into Crouch. Voldemort is well connected enough to know that he died. Malfoy has Fudge, who was present at the kiss, in his pocket. Remember?

Nys May 6th, 2004 5:44 am

I've found the link to the discussion on who's the missing DeathEater. www.cosforums.com/showthread.php?p=866560

wavy May 7th, 2004 1:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by xlupin_loverx
I suppose Voldemort could know, but he doesn't seem to be doing anything about it. Well, so far. I have a gut feeling a lot is going to happen with Snape in the next two books, and that we may learn a lot more about him. (At least I hope so.)

But also, Snape is a master at Legilimency and Occlumency. He even says, "The Dark Lord, for instance almost always knows when someone is lying to him. Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection." (page 531, hardback American edition) He's obviously talking about when we was a Death Eater and spying for the Order, but he could easily also be talking about what he's having to do now. If Voldie's groupies are trying to find out if Snape has betrayed him he could be tricking them with Occlumency to think that nothing's up. Just a thought.

Yeah - I think this passage is definitely a clue that Snape is currently lying directly to Voldie's face. I think Voldie, as he said, believed Snape had left him, but Snape and DD came up with a plan (the double-double agent thing) and Snape went back in, lied about why he hadn't been back sooner, took his medicine and now Voldie believes he is a spy for the DEs when really he is a spy for the Order.

So, maybe Snape is under suspicion, but I don't think Voldie knows (unless, as suggested on another thread, Voldie saw something through Harry when using legillimency on him).

Magda Quadle May 7th, 2004 5:45 am

I don't think Voldemort knows. I think he was refering to Snape as the afraid one and Karkaroff as the one who had left him forever. After all Crouch would have told him that Karkaroff ratted on all of his fellow death eaters in order to get out of Azkaban. Doing so would be considered leaving forever. Snape could just be considered afraid since he works with Dumbledore and isn't available to freely apperate from Hogwarts when called.

Luna27 May 7th, 2004 6:05 am

I think Voldermort knows and is just playing with Snape. From what we've seen of Voldemort from the end of GoF...he has little respect and zero trust for his Death Eaters. How can he trust anyone when he's so ruthless himself? It's hard to explain...but I think Voldermort operates with a presumption that his DE are worthless. If they prove otherwise, great. But they're kind of like mindless things he can use to see his will done as far as Voldermort is concerned. With few exceptions, they all betrayed him the last time around, but he didn't kill them. He saw some value to them for various reasons...positions some of them held at the Ministry etc.

So I think it's kind of the same with Snape. He's at Hogwarts...I don't think any other professor has any contact with Voldemort or DE. I think, regardless of how he feels about Snape, Voldie would see value in that and try to think of a way to exploit that asset. He may be feeding information to Snape. When you think about it, having the Order guard the prophecy didn't set him back much. He just used one of them to try and take the prophecy and realized that either he or Harry had to remove it. Voldemort may have thought that telling Snape about his plan to take the prophecy wouldn't be 'high profile information' in relation to some of his other plans. We'll see.

I just find it hard to believe, that even if Voldie didn't know that Snape had turned spy before, that Kreacher hasn't told him he is feeding info to the Order (via Narcissa). Even if Kreacher couldn't reveal this info when Sirius was alive (which, unless he was given a direct order not to tell, he could tell), he can definitely reveal it now that he is dead. I think Snape and his role will be a major plotline in the next 2 books.

Godrics_Heiress May 7th, 2004 5:23 pm

Do we know that Snape is a spy? One thing that I can safely speculate is that Voldemort must know that Snape has gone to the good side or otherwise he wouldn't be teaching at Hogwarts during Dumbledore's reign as Headmaster, unless he is a spy for Voldemort and we have yet to find out about this.

ravenclaw02 May 7th, 2004 5:43 pm

The thing is, if Voldemort knew, Snape's spying would be pretty useless... after all, they're not going to give good info to someone they know is a spy. LV is not known for being merciful, so I don't think that, if he knew Snape was a spy, he'd just let him go. Plus, Snape and Malfoy (LV's right hand man) are still great buddies, apparently. That wouldn't happen if LV knew about Snape's spying.
I think that the point of introducing Occlumency was to show us how Snape is an effective spy. LV is a skilled Legilmens, so Snape's Occlumency is the only way in which he can effectively spy.
In short, no, I don't think LV knows that Snape is a spy - yet. The quote from Dumbledore about Snape putting himself at great personal risk is very telling though, and I do think that the spying will get Snape in trouble (killed?) in the beginning.

Luna27 May 7th, 2004 6:06 pm

Ravenclaw02...I'm not saying that Voldie is merciful...but he does use people. And it is very possible that Malfoy may know that Snape is double dealing...but it's not necessary for him to know (if you remember from GoF...Voldie wasn't too happy with Malfoy or any of his Death Eaters). I'm saying that the odds of Voldemort accepting anyone back into his service with full trust is like, non-existent. He doesn't trust his DE's...his only weapon against them is fear of him...but he can use them regardless. He seems to be pretty perceptive...he knows that Wormatail only came to find him because he had no other choice. But that didn't matter to Voldie because he could use Wormtail to return to his body.

I'm saying that Voldie knows what Snape is up to...we don't know what his plans are. Getting the prophecy may have been a luxury to him...something he wanted but didn't need in the end. I think he fully intends to exploit the fact that Snape is at Hogwarts. To do that, he would need to feed info to Snape...but it wouldn't be the most important info. Above all else, he would need Dumbledore to believe that he is believing Snape's act. From what was being reported in the Daily Prophet, Voldie knew that the MoM didn't believe he was back. He also knew that Fudge was trying to discredit Dumbledore. So he knew that DD couldn't just have the prophecy removed (which would actually take Harry to do)...the best they could do is guard it.

Having the Order guard the prophecy didn't amount to much...like I said before. Voldie probably thought he could just kill any guard (as he tried to do with Arthur) and get out of the MoM with the prophecy...which would then make the dead guard look involved in some way. That would keep the heat off of Voldie. In the end, Voldie defeated himself by thinking he could just use Harry to get the prophecy. That had nothing to do with information he was passing along to Snape.

So, I don't think there is anyway Voldie doesn't know what Snape is up to. To him, the risk of having Snape spy on him is manageable...they just pass along less important info to Snape. But the risk of letting DD and company in on his smaller plans is far outweighed by the benefit of having Snape at Hogwarts. He may pull the polyjuice trick and have Malfoy or another DE pose as Snape while Snape is imprisoned somewhere...I don't know how it will be done, but he will use the situation to his advantage. Hopefully Snape manages to survive...probably with the reluctant help of Harry.:)

arabella1975 May 7th, 2004 6:17 pm

I don't see how Voldemort could not know. Draco's father was a DE and Draco is in Snape's house. Also, Ron's rat (Pettigrew) was at Hogwarts for three years before returning to Voldemort. Now that I think about it, Snape would be very lucky to pull out of this alive.

heirofslytherin_dm May 10th, 2004 2:18 am

As was pointed out Snape is a superb Legillimens, he could very well pull off the lie. BUT, then again, Moody had to have had some inclination, because of the "there are some spots that don't come off" (not sure if that is exact). He could have been talking as the auror Moody....or he could be talking about betraying Voldy. And it's not like he could've done anything about Snape himself....being under Dumbledore's nose and all. It's only right to just let it go and then report to his boss later. Not that he got the chance to or anything.

iamrade4ever May 10th, 2004 7:47 am

in the books, have we saw malfoy and snape togather at all?

koli May 11th, 2004 1:01 pm

I think Voldie knows that Snape is a spy, or at least he hasn't been loyal all this time. Voldie: said he had one faithful servant up at hogwarts in GOF and we know it wasn't Snape. And also in book one Snape was on to Quirrel and his plot, Snape confronted him many times, not knowing Voldemort was only on the other side of his head. Quirrel and Voldemort had to have conversations about Snape. Wonder what the next 2 books will bring...

Doggy May 11th, 2004 1:42 pm

I'm pretty sure that Voldemort knows that Snape has been a spy once. After all, it has been mentioned in at least two trials (in Karkaroff's and the one where Dumbledore vouched for him). And even if the information in those two trials are confidental, I'm pretty sure that someone like Lucius Malfoy wouldn't mind telling Voldemort about it, gaining some credit from him.

If Voldemort knows that Snape is a spy now, well I wouldn't think so. Something tells me that Snape wouldn't be alive if that was the case. However, Snape doesn't have to be spying in person, there are probably lots of ways he could hide himself. Unless he somehow managed to convince Voldemort that he has "redeemed", but I don't think Voldemort would get fooled twice.

Discordia May 11th, 2004 2:26 pm

Yeah, Voldemort's not stupid and he knows what's going on with his DE's. If Snape was at that ceremony we'd have known about it. Also I don't see how he could have been in two places at once. Voldemort kind of has to know by now becasue Snape's clever but not that clever.

hermy_weasley2 May 11th, 2004 3:43 pm

I think he's suspicious (sp?), but I'm not sure he knows for sure. Snape's probably not on his favorite's list right now if he ever was, but Voldemort might think he has to trust him because he's one more follower.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamrade4ever
in the books, have we saw malfoy and snape togather at all?

Yes, all the time, in class, at the dueling club in CoS, and Harry doesn't see everything. Draco is the model Slytherin, so he will get his fair share of attention from the Slytherin Head of House.

aRcHiMoNdE May 11th, 2004 3:47 pm

I think one of the big twist's in the story will be that Voldemort know's Snape is a spy, and Harry ends up saving Snape's life.

Luna27 May 11th, 2004 3:57 pm

I don't think the Malfoys are aware of Voldie's supicions of Snape at the moment. I do believe that Luicius thought Snape just pulled the same scam he did by saying he never helped the Dark Lord voluntarily. So I think Malfoy would still be chumy chumy with Snape because he just thinks he made the clever choice by saying he turned spy for DD. And again, it would be a huge red flag if Malfoy suddenly didn't trust Snape anymore. So he either does know and is stll pretending to be his buddy, or Voldie hasn't told him because he doesn't see any reason for anyone to know his plans for Snape at the moment. He might think that one of his DEs would screw it up by saying something to Snape that lets him know Voldie isn't too happy with him. And I stress again, that the only reason Snape is still alive is Voldie needs him...I'm sure he will be tortured mercilessly after Voldie's need for him is diminished. Probably while Malfoy is using polyjuice potion to look like Snape and infiltrating Hogwarts.

hermy_weasley2 May 11th, 2004 4:11 pm

Snape left the Dark side before Voldemort's first fall from power though didn't he?

Maybe Snape spies on the Death Eaters without them knowing he's there. Or maybe someone else who left the Dark side without anyone knowing is feeding him information from Voldemort's inner-circle.

Tane May 11th, 2004 4:18 pm

If Snape could close his mind directly to Voldemort then why would The Dark Lord risk enlisting Snape as a Death Eater. It would be very risky for Voldemort to trust someone who closed there mind every time Voldemort wanted to know something. If Voldemort can't get through Snape's thoughts then in theory neither can Dumbledore putting Snape in control of who gets what information or if he just keeps it to himself.

wavy May 11th, 2004 5:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tane
If Snape could close his mind directly to Voldemort then why would The Dark Lord risk enlisting Snape as a Death Eater. It would be very risky for Voldemort to trust someone who closed there mind every time Voldemort wanted to know something. If Voldemort can't get through Snape's thoughts then in theory neither can Dumbledore putting Snape in control of who gets what information or if he just keeps it to himself.

As I read his l/o speech, Voldie wouldn't be able to detect that Snape had closed his mind to him. Snape would just be able to block out any memories, thoughts and emotions that would contradict whatever lie he was telling at the time. It seemed to me from the description more like an exercise in extreme self control than magic, per se. As for doing it with DD, I would presume Snape could do it with anyone he chose, although its unclear if DD would be better at detecting it than Voldie. Theorectically DD is more powerful than Voldie, no?

darklord_grindelwald May 11th, 2004 10:40 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavy
Theorectically DD is more powerful than Voldie, no?

Not neccessarily. Even Dumbledore states that Voldemort is more powerful then him, esp. now when he has Harry's blood.

I think LV suspects Snape, but he's not sure of it. He didn't send Snape to the DoM to get the prophecy, that was the task of his most turstworthy servants. Snape was not one of them, nor Pettigrew.

Tane May 12th, 2004 12:08 am

Though saying that Snape could not really leave Hogwarts without probably being asked questions on his where about if needed at the school, so Voldemort might not have wanted him to go to the MoM for security reasons.

Though I do think Voldemort has his suspicions of Snape and I can't help but think that even though Harry dislikes Snape, he might feel some regret if he was to die protecting him. I mean could you imagine someone who always appears to hate you and yet ends up dieing to save your life. I think that will be the only way Harry will forgive Snape fully in the end, if Snape puts his life at risk for him.

Saying that Snape's smart enough to whimper his way out of any sticky situation and probably has a very good excuse as to why Voldemort should really trust him. No doubt Snape will prove his loyalty to Voldemort; I just hope it is not at the expense of Dumbledore that he gains his redemption from the Dark Lord.

persian85033 May 13th, 2004 1:19 am

Lupin said that Snape is a superb Occlumens, and only those good at Occlumency can conceal a lie from the Dark Lord. That's probably why Snape is still alive.

wavy May 13th, 2004 4:38 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by persian85033
Lupin said that Snape is a superb Occlumens, and only those good at Occlumency can conceal a lie from the Dark Lord. That's probably why Snape is still alive.

Which makes me wonder - how would Lupin know? Just second hand from DD or some other way?

darklord_grindelwald May 13th, 2004 10:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by wavy
Which makes me wonder - how would Lupin know? Just second hand from DD or some other way?

Well, it's possible that he is a Legilimens (or Legilimentor?). In PoA, Harry felt like several times that Lupin can read his thoughts. So I think he can use Legilimency, though he couldn't master it fully.

Azkaban escapee May 13th, 2004 11:08 pm

Voldie probably thinks Snape is a spy for him. Snape being skilled at occlumency could probably pull it off, although that worries me he can lie to anyone includong Dumbledore.

Hes a great charactor no one can be 100% sure whoes side hes on theres so much evidence agaisnt him yet Dumbledore trusts him.

Marie Lexis May 15th, 2004 10:03 pm

I don't think that Voldemort really knows about him but I do think that he will find out some how. There has to be other spys for Voldemort that knows about Snape. It's just practically impossible not to think that.

Discordia May 26th, 2004 2:14 pm

Ok, Voldemort has to know by now. How could he not? Voldemort knows the names of all his DE's and whose following him. Snape was also part of a gang of Slytherins that nearly all turned out to be DE's. Since Snape and Malfoy seem to be so buddy buddy I'm going to assume that they were part of that gang. It's apparent that Snape is the one Voldemort was referring to as the one who wouldn't return. Assuming that Voldemort knows he's turned against him and that Lucius knows about his change of heart that brings me to two conclusions. One being that Lucius knows the truth now but hasn't said anything becasue he plans to use Snape against himself or that he's in league with Severus which I doubt. Two, being that Lucius knows nothing about Snape's switch. So if Snape's risking his life to get information there might be another way that he's been getting his info. A safer way. There's also the fact that Draco tends to drop dark hints onto Harry and his gang. Lke when he hinted to Harry about Sirius with his use of the word Doggy...Maybe that's how... http://www.darkmark.com/forum/html/emoticons/wink.gif Maybe that's one of the ways Severus is getting his information. I never really thought about it till now but it makes sense. How else did Snape know that Lucius saw Sirius at Platform 9 3/4? Draco can't keep his mouth shut and he's been known in the past to drop hints like this in the past and he's obviously discussed God knows what with Theodore not, Crabbe, and Goyle. If there was anyone that Draco was going to spill his guts to it would probably be the one person other than his father that he seems to trust and respect completely. Severus. I'll bet you right now that after Draco made those hints at Harry that as soon as they got to school Draco went off running his mouth again or atleast saying enough for Severus to put the pieces together. If Snape is no longer in with Voldemort's DE's and he's spying on them aswell Draco must be his key to finding out what Lucius and the other DE's are up to. I mean think about it. Many of the Slytherins have parents who are or were supporters of Voldemort. Draco might not be the only one running his mouth becasue if Draco knows a lot than I'm sure the rest of them might to. It would be the perfect cover. Snape is a teacher by day while all the while secretly spying on them and taking notes.

Tane May 26th, 2004 2:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Discordia
[size=2]Ok, Voldemort has to know by now. How could he not?

Why would Voldemort know, if Snape is such a great spy then he might not know whether or not his death eater is on his side or not due to Snape's sneaky abilities. A good spy keeps you guessing and I have a feeling that Snipe might not be on Dumbledore's side. Voldemort was not sure you see about the death eater that might have betrayed him, for all we know he could have been playing a game there and casting doubt just to reinforce Snape's true position and hide the fact that he is really spying for him, Voldemort.

Snape is not betraying Voldemort, I think he is thick in with him though it is difficult to prove which side he has truly taken and that is the thing. I stated in a thread that Snape seemed afraid when Harry spoke out Voldemort's name during one of the Occlumency lessons. I could be wrong though as the death eaters especially Bellatrix state the same thing to anyone they see as not worthy to be either a death eater or supporter of Voldemort, they say 'how dare you speak of his name', and that is not that dissimilar to what Snape spat at Harry with when he said Voldemort in front of him.

LilFlirtyBaby08 May 26th, 2004 5:26 pm

I think Voldie might be a little susipious but not enough to to kill Snape ;for it :rotfl:

RemusLupinFan May 26th, 2004 6:04 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luna27
[color=MediumTurquoise]I think Voldermort knows and is just playing with Snape. From what we've seen of Voldemort from the end of GoF...he has little respect and zero trust for his Death Eaters. How can he trust anyone when he's so ruthless himself? It's hard to explain...but I think Voldermort operates with a presumption that his DE are worthless. If they prove otherwise, great. But they're kind of like mindless things he can use to see his will done as far as Voldermort is concerned. With few exceptions, they all betrayed him the last time around, but he didn't kill them. He saw some value to them for various reasons...positions some of them held at the Ministry etc.

So I think it's kind of the same with Snape.COLOR]


This illustrates my belief exactly. I think Voldemort would never disclose any important information to Snape. Voldemort most likely keeps him alive just in case he might be useful somehow in the future. It seems to be the same deal with Wormtail also.

Unfortunately I also think that our fav potions master might meet his end in the two books.

Lanc May 26th, 2004 6:37 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tane
Voldemort was not sure you see about the death eater that might have betrayed him, for all we know he could have been playing a game there and casting doubt just to reinforce Snape's true position and hide the fact that he is really spying for him, Voldemort.

What would be the point of Voldemort doing that? He thought Harry was going to die, so who was going to carry the news back that there is a Death Eater who has left forever? Unless he believes there is another spy amongst the Death Eaters, I can't see any point in his making a statement that would suggest Snape is not loyal.

I do agree, however, that Voldemort was not certain that the traitor had truly deserted him. Because of this, I think Snape could have persuaded Voldemort to let him live and return to the ranks of the Death Eaters (possibly telling him he would act as a spy at Hogwarts). However, I would doubt that Voldemort would fully trust Snape, so he doesn't tell Snape everything. Because of this, Snape didn't know about the plan to lure Harry to the Ministry of Magic. I do think Snape is loyal to Dumbledore (though I wouldn't trust Snape further than Hagrid could throw him).

Jade Evans May 26th, 2004 10:43 pm

I think Voldemort knows. At the end of GoF, he addressed the 2 missing DEs as a coward (Karkaroff?) and one that has left him forever (Snape?) who will be killed.

Dumbledore had testified for Snape in front of the Wizengamet that Snape had turned and is now spying on Voldemort. It's hard to imagine this news will not travel to the ears of some Voldemort supporter working in the Ministry. So Voldemort should know about it.

Snape is still alive because he is at Hogwarts most of the time, or safe places like the 12 Grimmauld Place. I imagine that when he is spying, he would be desguised in some way and also use Occlumency to avoid being found out.

eowiodith May 26th, 2004 11:10 pm

I dont think voldie knows yet, but he will...... I cant be sure of snapes motives either but time will tell.

blackforest May 27th, 2004 12:31 am

Hmm. This is hard to tell.

Perhaps Voldemort does know and is bidding his time to try to find a use for Snape...

Or perhaps he does not know, but he is bound to know soon. I have a feeling it won't end well.

Silkeng May 27th, 2004 6:44 am

I think it is pretty clear how ruthless Voldemort is to those that disappoint or betray him, I don't think he would hesitate to kill or torture Snape if he knew. I would guess it was pretty accurate to say that when Snape disappears or dies, that is when we will know Voldemort found out.

Mrnozzie May 27th, 2004 11:08 am

I reckon that V knows because he says at the end of GoF that there are 'six missing DE, three dead, one who's too cowardly to return, one who's at Hogwarts and one who's left him forever...he will be killed of course'. (I did heavily cut that bit down by the way!)

I am assuming that Snape was the one to have left him - and the one that V wants to kill. But as to why Snape is still alive if that is the case ... I don't know! There are so many loose ends. Who knows? Well, JK does but I suppose she'd have to....... lol

Discordia May 27th, 2004 12:49 pm

Quote:

Why would Voldemort know, if Snape is such a great spy then he might not know whether or not his death eater is on his side or not due to Snape's sneaky abilities.
Voldemor tknows everything about his DE's. He's very good at knowing what they're up to. Snape is also afraid of Voldemort. He's to afraid to say his name. he always refers to him as the Dark Lord.

But that is a good idea, who ever mentioned that Voldemort knows and is just playing with him. It would explain a lot. Voldemort could know about Snape but he's still leading Snape onto believe that he doesn't know abiut his spy work lately. If this is true than I think that Voldemort is just bidding his time with Snape. I think that he may just be waiting until the opportune moment to reveal it all to Snape.

Stephie May 29th, 2004 12:55 am

Yup. It states so at the end of GoF :

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One too cowardly to return ...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever{{Snape}} ...he will be killed, of course ...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who was already reentered my service".

Tane May 29th, 2004 1:19 am

I just can't help but think that it is too obvious and that the Master is referring to his Lordship when he calls Voldemort the Dark Lord. You see in a way that is more flattering from Snape as he likes to be called Master instead of Professor.

In a way Snape is just in the right place and trusted enough by Dumbledore to give Voldemort the upper hand by killing Dumbledore.

I really can't figure out Snape at all. You just can't trust him and for all we know it could have been Fudge as his faithful servant who would not even acknowledge his return to the point of insulting Voldemorts very existence by denying his return to power and granting him what he needs or wants. Fudge fits the role just as much as Snape. I still think there is something not quiet right with Snape’s character as it is not all cut and dry and he is too cunning to be caught out by either Voldemort or Dumbledore.

I really can't wait to find out about Snape and J.K.Rowling did state that there was something bad about his character in the next book, she told us not to feel too sorry for Snape suggesting that he has something up his sleeve. Now I was convinced it was Snape until J.K.Rowling stated that we could not trust Snape and that we should not get too comfortable with him or feel sorry for him in an interview. After that I am really not sure as to how to take Snape’s character.

PhineasNigellus May 29th, 2004 4:15 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tane

I really can't figure out Snape at all. You just can't trust him and for all we know it could have been Fudge as his faithful servant who would not even acknowledge his return to the point of insulting Voldemorts very existence by denying his return to power and granting him what he needs or wants. Fudge fits the role just as much as Snape. I still think there is something not quiet right with Snape’s character as it is not all cut and dry and he is too cunning to be caught out by either Voldemort or Dumbledore.

I really can't wait to find out about Snape and J.K.Rowling did state that there was something bad about his character in the next book, she told us not to feel too sorry for Snape suggesting that he has something up his sleeve. Now I was convinced it was Snape until J.K.Rowling stated that we could not trust Snape and that we should not get too comfortable with him or feel sorry for him in an interview. After that I am really not sure as to how to take Snape’s character.

I'm the same - I honestly have no idea how to interpret Snapes actions. I'm really looking forward to finding out exactly who's side he's on. That said, I do think that Voldemort probably knows about Snape spying (if he is indeed spying FOR the order), for whatever reason, my guess because he knows that having Snape so close to Dumbledore and Harry could be a huge advantage, he's not punished Snape just yet. We know that he's not exactly merciful towards death eaters who have failed him, but I think Snape is different to the others - Snape can give LV something that no other failed death eater has been able to give, so thats why LV has spared him... so far.

Jade Evans May 29th, 2004 5:41 am

I am re-reading PS/SS and I found some evidence that Voldemort does know about Snape. Remember that Snape had private talks with Quirril, and Quirril had Voldemort with him all the time as we know. Obviously Voldemort had heard all those conversations and knows that Snape had turned on him. Snape even warned Quirril to consider where his loyalties lie (in the Forbidden Forest). So there you go, solid evidence. Sorry if this has been mentioned already, I have just read to that part today :)

130R May 29th, 2004 5:51 am

I don't see how Voldemort could not know.

Dumbledore announced to an entire court room that Snape was a spy. Not a particularly great way to keep this information secret. Furthermore, Barty Crouch Sr. was present at this hearing, and Voldemort was in his mind.

If Voldemort would extract every thought and memory from a low ranking minisitry official like Bertha Jorkins, he would almost certainly do the same to Crouch.

Snape also tried to stop Voldemort from getting the Sorcerer's stone. I know some people might say that Snape didn't know it was Voldemort who was trying to steal the stone. Voldemort doesn't strike me as the type of person who will distinguish between someone intentionally working against him, and someone unintentionally working against him. Also, Voldemort obviously didn't trust Snape since he didn't bring him in on the plan.

It seems almost impossible that Snape could simply rejoin the Death Eaters as a spy. If JKR decides to go this route, I hope it is clearly explained how him accomplished such a feat. My guess is that Snape is getting information for the order from one of the other Death Eaters.

jen15poms May 30th, 2004 2:36 am

Snape must be an extremely good spy if Voldemort does not know what he is up to...I'm trying to rememer...Snape obviously does not show up at the graveyard where Harry is "portkeyed" to in GoF...or does he??? **checks the book**

We have Wormtail, Malfoy, the Lestranges (in Azkaban), Macnair, Crabb, Goyle, Nott. These are the DEs that he names. Then we have two sections which are a tad ambiguous...

"He walked on. Some of the Death Eaters he passed in silence, but he paused before others and spoke to them."

--Could Snape be one of the DEs that he passed by???

"And here we have six missing Death Eaters...three dead in my service. One, too cowardly to return [KARAKOFF???]...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed, of course...and one, who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service [likely, Bartemius Crouch, Jr.].

--So, either Snape is there, but LV just passed him by...in which case he may not know that Snape is a spy. OR Snape is the one who LV believes has left him forever...in which case he has probably figured out that Snape was a spy, and he is in mortal danger.

praisequeenfreddie May 30th, 2004 2:42 am

Well, he knows Snape has left his service, but i do not know if he reckons that Snape is a spy. But then when he was stuck on the back of Quirells head he must have had time to think things through and the idea probably popped into his less then human head.

Nys May 30th, 2004 2:56 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by praisequeenfreddie
Well, he knows Snape has left his service, but i do not know if he reckons that Snape is a spy. But then when he was stuck on the back of Quirells head he must have had time to think things through and the idea probably popped into his less then human head.

As far as we know, only the Order of the Phoenix know that Snape is a member of the order. I suspect that the entire Order doesn't know for safety's sake. We've had no indication that Quirrell was a member of the Order, so thereby I believe that Snape wouldn't have done anything out of the ordinary, that would have led Quirrell believe that he was a spy for the Order. Snape is smarter than that, particularly since from what Harry overheard, Snape seemed to think that Quirrell was working for Voldermort.

Discordia May 30th, 2004 4:45 am

Quote:

Snape must be an extremely good spy if Voldemort does not know what he is up to...I'm trying to rememer...Snape obviously does not show up at the graveyard where Harry is "portkeyed" to in GoF...or does he??? **checks the book**
I agree. However Snape does it he does it damnable well. He's one of the few spies I've heard of to switch sides, turn spy for the good side, act all buddy buddy with people in league with Voldemort and still live to tell the tale. I don't think that Snape was in the grave yard becasue of what he said to Karkaroff. Jarkarooff chose to run and hide but Snape told him that he'd stand his ground. I don't think that Snape was at the ceremony becasue he'd have a heck of a time explaining to everyone else where he disappeared to for several hours at the same time that Harry and Cedric were transported. What would he have said? Oh, I was just taking a nice stroll through the forest? Also Snape was with Mcgonagall and Dumbledore when they blasted through the door and stunned Crouch. The time periods wouldn't match up if Snape had been there. There wouldn't have been enough time.

Voldemort has to know by now, becasue even though Snape's clever Voldemort is smarter. Snape for all his intelligence in potions and occlumency is still intimidated by Voldemort and he shows some reverance for him. Snape is afraid of Voldemort even though he risks his life as a spy. Voldemort most likely does know about Snape but I believe he's just waiting for the right time to finish Snape off.

For now all we can really do is speculate becasue everything we do know about Snape can only lead to theories and assumptions. We know for fact:
-Snape had a rough childhood
-that he risked his life by switching sides at the height of Voldemort's power
-That Dumbledore trusts him despite everything that's happened
-Snape was never even accused of being a DE (Sirius told us that) and that he was aquitted of all charges bc Dumbledore vouched for him
-Dumbledore refuses to give him the DA job becasue he believes it may bring out the worst in him
-That when Snape first came to school he knew more dark arts than some 7th years, and that he's a potions master and superb with occlumeny/legilems
-Somehow Snape has managed to keep close ties with people like Lucius Malfoy.

Yet despite all that what does it really tell us? Can we really draw anything from this? It all appears to lead up to the assumption that Snape is acting as a double agent or that he plans to screw both sides over. The main problem is that Voldemort wants to kill him and if Snape is working for Voldemort than the onyl reason he's still alive is becasue Voldemort plans to use him now and kill him later. All we have so far are theories that don't fit together or are holeier than swiss cheese.

The only thing that realy has to be true is that Voldemort knows about Snape. Dummbledore testified for him so Voldemort most likely does know now.

RadicaL May 30th, 2004 4:24 pm

That question has always hindered me. Voldemort knows that Snape has left him and joined Dumbledore but wouldn't Voldemort try to do something like punish Snape or even kill him for his betrayal? But the weird thing is, Voldemort only spoke about Snape one time. I find that completely bizarre to only bring up Snape one time when he once served under the Dark Lord and has now abandoned him. He must go punished and it's not like Voldemort to not do something to get back at Snape. Also, another weird thing is the close relationship between Lucius and Snape. We know that Lucius will tell Snape very important information like when he told Snape he had seen Sirius on the platform, so why doesn't he just bag Snape and give him to Voldemort or why doesn't Voldemort tell Lucius to bring Snape to him?! It just doesn't to make sense. The only things I can think of to counter-part what i have said is that Lucius never knew that Snape was a Death Eater or maybe Voldemort is waiting for the right time to attack Snape for revenge or to use him against Dumbledore. And I think that the only way Snape could be spying on Voldemort is by either being an animagus or he is a vampire. I know not a lot of people think it's possible because we have seen Snape show minimal signs to suggest this but remember how Snape made a concoction for Lupin to control his werewolf behavior, well maybe he had done the same for himself.

Antipodean May 30th, 2004 4:33 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadicaL
...He must go punished and it's not like Voldemort to not do something to get back at Snape...

Perhaps Snape is related to Voldemort; a half brother or something. We don't know what the Muggle Tom was up to before Voldemort killed him. Maybe he hooked up with another witch and had Snape, who took his mother's last name after Muggle Tom (it's really fun calling him that) left. If Snape really was related to Voldemort and wasn't a muggle, perhaps the evil darklord has realized that blood runs thicker than water and won't kill him... Just a theory. I'm probably completely off, but it could happen.

deadlocked May 30th, 2004 9:59 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Discordia
Yeah, Voldemort's not stupid and he knows what's going on with his DE's. If Snape was at that ceremony we'd have known about it. Also I don't see how he could have been in two places at once. Voldemort kind of has to know by now becasue Snape's clever but not that clever.

Ya i agree. Snape is clever but we all know what a genius Tom Riddle is! He must
be using Snape some way that will hurt Dumbledore

Adrelamas May 31st, 2004 4:31 am

Does Voldemort know Snape is a spy? Yes. But the real question is, a spy for WHO? I think Snape is being the 'perfect' Slytherin. I think he's playing both sides against each other. I think he's feeding information to the Order, and he's feeding information to the Death Eaters.

I do think that Voldemort plans on killing Snape, but with Snape at Hogwarts, and apparently so well thought of by Dumbledore, that it is just too tempting of a situation to end on a fit of revenge. They always say revenge is a dish best served cold.

I'll give you two predictions. One... Snape will somehow lead Dumbledore to his death. (Which I hope doesn't happen, I like DD, but I just don't have much hope for him living the entire series out.) Two..... Harry will save Snape, despite everything the two of them have been through, including the death of Dumbledore.

Dagmar May 31st, 2004 5:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RadicaL
That question has always hindered me. Voldemort knows that Snape has left him and joined Dumbledore but wouldn't Voldemort try to do something like punish Snape or even kill him for his betrayal? But the weird thing is, Voldemort only spoke about Snape one time. I find that completely bizarre to only bring up Snape one time when he once served under the Dark Lord and has now abandoned him. He must go punished and it's not like Voldemort to not do something to get back at Snape. Also, another weird thing is the close relationship between Lucius and Snape. We know that Lucius will tell Snape very important information like when he told Snape he had seen Sirius on the platform, so why doesn't he just bag Snape and give him to Voldemort or why doesn't Voldemort tell Lucius to bring Snape to him?! It just doesn't to make sense. The only things I can think of to counter-part what i have said is that Lucius never knew that Snape was a Death Eater or maybe Voldemort is waiting for the right time to attack Snape for revenge or to use him against Dumbledore. And I think that the only way Snape could be spying on Voldemort is by either being an animagus or he is a vampire. I know not a lot of people think it's possible because we have seen Snape show minimal signs to suggest this but remember how Snape made a concoction for Lupin to control his werewolf behavior, well maybe he had done the same for himself.

This has bothered me too. I finished rereading PoA, (to get ready for the movie), and was struck with the fact that Pettigrew escapes and goes to Voldemort. Snape, if he is a spy, will definately be aware of this. So why doesn't he alert anyone at the beginning of book four? At the end of book 3 he is all but insane about believing that Black has made up the whole story about Pettigrew. Even still, he would have definately heard about the "Dark Lord" coming back around. I would think he would be terrified of this and alert DD.
He is described as "Lucious Malfoy's lap dog". Is Lucious playing him? Believing whatever line of ** Snape has given in order to pump him with false info?
hmmm.

OmarGama May 31st, 2004 5:21 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius83
Nah, i doubt it. I have a feeling Snape's cover may be blown during book 6 though.

Yeah, I agree with you, maybe he will last until 6th book.

lupin14388 May 31st, 2004 5:56 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dagmar
This has bothered me too. I finished rereading PoA, (to get ready for the movie), and was struck with the fact that Pettigrew escapes and goes to Voldemort. Snape, if he is a spy, will definately be aware of this. So why doesn't he alert anyone at the beginning of book four? At the end of book 3 he is all but insane about believing that Black has made up the whole story about Pettigrew. Even still, he would have definately heard about the "Dark Lord" coming back around. I would think he would be terrified of this and alert DD.
He is described as "Lucious Malfoy's lap dog". Is Lucious playing him? Believing whatever line of ** Snape has given in order to pump him with false info?
hmmm.

Was the order around at the end of book 3 for Snape to spy for. In my opinion, Snape could be on either side. He is clearly skilled at occlumency, enough that he says he can lie around Voldemort, a very giftet legilimens. DD is also a gifted legilimens, so Snape could be lying to either side, and neither side would know it. I think his true intentions will show in book 6, and he will pick a side. Snape is a crucial part of the order, so i hope he stays with them.

Legnar June 2nd, 2004 9:14 pm

I didn't realize until I read it in this thread, but it's true. Dumbledore told the court that Snape was a spy for their side, so most people would know and I think that even Malfoy, though he's not in the court as I believe, would, through his "connections", have got to know that Snape was a spy and now Voldemort's back he surely told him. So Voldemort MUST know Snape's been a spy.
Now the question is, why doesn't Voldemort kill Snape? Is he planning to use him against the Order or Dumbledore? But then Voldemort and the other Deatheaters would be bound to treat him differently and I'm sure he would realize. Apart from that Snape IS actually providing reports of the deatheaters' plans that help to frustrate them. So I don't really understand that.
One possible solution might be that Snape could amazingly convince Voldemort that he needed to provide Dumbledore with information to be able to provide voldemort with news either, but only gave away unimportant things when Voldemort held power last time.
Or he really uses some kind of polyjuice thing. But who would he be turning into then? I mean it must be a dead deatheater OR Karkaroff.
If he turned into Karkaroff the problem would be solved, but we'd have another problem. As Karkaroff he'd have no excuse to not help with the underground operations, such as getting Harry in the ministry of magic.
I don't believe it's a problem that the polyjuice effect only carries an hour since we never heard Voldemort talking to his deatheaters for longer than some minutes.
I personally believe he kind of convinced Voldemort that he was always on his side... :huh:

Nymphadora* June 3rd, 2004 2:21 am

Voldemort could know that Snape is a spy. But i think that for sure, he believes that Snape is not on his side. Voldemort will never allow Snape back into the fold. Firstly, if Snape tried to rejoin, Voldemort has to be careful and might say that Snape might be going back to him so that he could return to the MOm and Dumbledore and tell him everything like how many death eaters there are, and other strategic plans.

As well, like Sirius said, that being a death eater is life long commitment and alligence or suffer death. You don't just go to Voldemort and back down later. If Snape tried to come back, Voldemort would murder him for not coming back to him right away when he called them into the graveyard. Voldemort even said in the graveyard that 1 follower ran away, 1 is still loyal (or was considering that was Mr. Crouch's son he was referring to then) and 1 has left me forever. The one that had left him forever was Snape. (the one who ran away was obviously Karkaroff) Voldemort would never let Snape back into the fold. he has his own right to be suspiscous of him, and it would omit too great a risk to let him back in, incase he went back to the Ministry and leaked out information.

Da_Chinkster June 3rd, 2004 2:25 am

If LV didnt know and Snape went back, it wouldnt take two seconds for LV to work it out. I reckon LV can tell when a person is hiding something and would spot it in Snape. However he probably does know considering LV saw Snape working in Hogwarts and how Snape tried to keep Quirrell away fromt he Philosphers stone

SpicyBurger8 June 3rd, 2004 4:56 am

How do we know Snape is a spy? They never actually said it directly... Maybe that's what Rowling wants us to think? Hmm... He probably is but you never know... But Voldemort isn't dumb. He's good at Legilimency (Sp.) and so wouldn't he know Snape was lying if he said he wasn't on Dumbledore's side? Maybe he's doing something else for the Order/Dumbledore that has to do with the Death Eaters. I just read this over and it sounds kind of dumb and far out but like I said you never know...

SpicyBurger8 June 3rd, 2004 4:57 am

OOPS! I just realized they DID say Snape was a spy. My bad. Don't read what I said... I'm an idiot.

Discordia June 3rd, 2004 10:28 am

I think that like everyone has already said, Snape is vulnerable to Voldemort assuming he is the one Voldemort was refering to. The only reason Snape's still alive is becasue Voldemort can't get to him at the school while he's under Dumbledore's protection there. If Snape just up and or something, Dumbledore would probably naturally suspect it to be murder becasue Snape's knows a ton about the dark arts and potions so he'd be able to defend himself. Not just any old wizard could finish Snape of that quickly and I doubt even Lucius could just finish him off that easily. Snape knows how to keep himself alive. If Voldemort knows about Snape he's probably going to use him against himself and than kill him when the time comes.

Padfoot_001 June 3rd, 2004 12:27 pm

Well ... this could already have been put forward, I'll be honest, theres too many things for me to read them all as much as I love Harry Potter, so anyway....
My oppinion, I know Voldamort's not stupid, no way mate, but still... I don't believe that he knows about Snape betraying him. I believe that Voldamort believes that (confusing isn't it? :huh: ) Snape is a spy for him at Hogwarts, and perhaps he is.... we just dunno ... mind you I love Snape heaps, I'm not trying to accuse the fellow or anything.
So yeah bit from Myself here... if voldamort knew Snape had betrayed him, then he would be dead... D, E, D ... ded, beleive me ... its whatI would have done...... so yeah.

Hope that made sense guys!

percivalwulfric June 3rd, 2004 12:48 pm

in the first post or something someone put foward about him not appearing in the grave yard. thats a good point altho he couldnt get to the grave yard because you cant apparate in the grounds of Hogwarts. I think voldie doesn't know that snape is a spy because snape is a clever man. he is also highly skilled at occulmens and legilimens so he can stop voldie delving into his mind. and also he can block out ths signs of himself lying.

Who knows??

cajitasazules June 21st, 2004 8:44 pm

Just want to chime in with my two cents on the matter...

IMHO, I don't think that Voldemort knows about Snape because of his occulmency skills. Snape may also be using the pensieve (Dumbledore's or a private one) to hide his feelings that he does not want Voldemort to find. (If he's a double agent, then he could also be filtering memories against the OotP.)

Voldemort was probably too week when he was possessing Quirrell, so he may not have realized that Snape had left him. Snape may have sensed that Voldemort was nearby.

As for the fate of Snape. I really hope he lives. If JKR has him killed, it might mean having him die like a hero (self-sacrifice for the Order, etc.), depending on how it is portrayed. Based on her "evil" comments about what will come out about Snape, it's odd she would have him die in this way. If Snape is the DADA prof in book 7, then I would guess he's a goner or he'll be the first to survive and live.

KingsleysCool67 June 22nd, 2004 7:20 pm

No, He doesent know. We know that snape has a very quick mind, like when he blames potter, and hes normaly right. but he ahs is a legimine or whatever, which means voldemort cant detect it if he lies. I also think that because he was frends with old death eaters in school he must have known sirius before they met james.
but why is he so mean to hermoine's brain, does she remind him of lily? or is it because shes a mudblood


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